(Pokemon)Lugia vs kyogre

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lordxalba
Who will win?

isharacramer
Originally posted by lordxalba
Who will win?

Lugia will win.

Ridley_Prime
Actually, Kyogre wins. Its special attack is almost as high as Mewtwo's, and Drizzle ability makes Thunder a no-miss move.

MooCowofJustice
I'm gonna go with Lugia. It has several useful abilities and can fight anywhere while Kyogre is limited to the water.

Heythere,Honey
Lugia has the advantage. But Thunder is also a big one for Kyogre if Lugia ever decides to fight in the air.

MooCowofJustice
Lugia has barriers which have demonstrated an ability to block attacks from the legendary birds. And I believe Zapdos fires actual lightning bolts. Or at least bolts with similar voltage.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
while Kyogre is limited to the water.
Kyogre can make massive rain clouds that cover the entire sky and bring about torrential downpours anywhere it goes. no expression

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Lugia has barriers which have demonstrated an ability to block attacks from the legendary birds.
Doesn't mean it will block Kyogre's attacks though, especially when it's much more powerful than Zapdos and the other 2 legendary birds.

Heythere,Honey
But not all 3 combined though. I remember Lugia taking that.

MooCowofJustice
Not to mention Kyogre's water blasts would not have the super effective damage of Zapdos. It would if Kyogre used Thunder, but those moves would not have the same power as Zapdos. Zapdos is an electric type, he's just plain better at using those moves.

Heythere,Honey
The no miss Thunder with Rain Dance could work out effectively though if Kyogre spams Thunder.

Crap, I don't know what side I'm on. no expression

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by Heythere,Honey
But not all 3 combined though. I remember Lugia taking that.
ABC logic aside, I still say Kyogre takes this.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Not to mention Kyogre's water blasts would not have the super effective damage of Zapdos.
Maybe not, but thanks to Drizzle, Kyogre would get like a double STAB from using water attacks.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
It would if Kyogre used Thunder, but those moves would not have the same power as Zapdos. Zapdos is an electric type, he's just plain better at using those moves.
The only thing Zapdos has over Kyogre in using electric moves is the STAB, or same type attack bonus. Kyogre's Thunder would still be stronger than Zapdos's, due to its special attack being almost as high as Mewtwo's like I said before.

Also, if Lugia causes a 40 day storm like it's said to be able to in the Pokedex, that would only further help Kyogre in battle, rather than hinder it.

MooCowofJustice
I really don't think we should base this stuff on stats. It doesn't work.

Ridley_Prime
Why? That's what we've always done before. Are you saying that because the stats fall more under Kyogre's favor? 131

MooCowofJustice
No, I'm saying that because it doesn't always make sense. Otherwise Slaking can move continents and anything with higher than base 91 Speed can move at Mach 2.

Ridley_Prime
It's Pokemon. Obviously not everything's going to make sense, like Furret being able to learn Surf, but that's no reason to me to dismiss the fact that Kyogre's nearly as powerful as Mewtwo, and what not.

Even if we ignore stats, Kyogre can use the 40-day storms Lugia creates to its advantage (since Ky can control water), in addition to other factors.

lordxalba
Originally posted by isharacramer
Lugia will win.

Your wrong,Kyogre wins this.

isharacramer
But but I thought you like Lugia

lordxalba
Originally posted by isharacramer
But but I thought you like Lugia

Kyogre is best.

isharacramer
Originally posted by lordxalba
Kyogre is best.
ok

lordxalba
Originally posted by isharacramer
ok

Not ok ,if you think Lugia wins then prove it.

isharacramer
Originally posted by lordxalba
Not ok ,if you think Lugia wins then prove it.

I don't think Lugia wins

BloodRain
Lugia wouldn't create that storm in this situation, its not really effective to start against a pokemon like Kyogre. Its barrier is able to take strong hits like that Thunder and then launch its own on Kyogre.

Ridley_Prime
A barrier that has stopped who on Kyogre's level?

MooCowofJustice
3 Pokemon combined, and one with a Super Effective damage multiplier.

Ridley_Prime
They're still not on Kyogre's level though.

MooCowofJustice
Let's start by proving that. Even if you don't use stats, those birds are plenty strong enough to take on Kyogre.

Ridley_Prime
So then, I guess they could take on Mewtwo as well? Too bad Kyogre Drizzle Thunders them all though, or at least two of them, while Ice Beaming Zapdos.

MooCowofJustice
Yeah, Kyogre isn't on MewTwo's level. You base this on stats, which are a gameplay mechanic.

And manipulating this same gameplay mechanic puts them far above MewTwo's power level, as well as Kyogre's.

Ridley_Prime
Yes he is. At least, Kyogre created the seas and has complete control of water. That's far beyond creating a 40-day storm and what not. And Mewtwo created weather strong enough to destroy the planet. Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres have not a single feat that put them above either of those.

Hell, the water from the heavy downpour that Kyogre causes alone would probably be enough to hurt Moltres, while Kyogre one-shots the other two with his vastly superior special attack.

You yourself even said in the Poke League thread that the weather trio (which Kyogre is a part of) beats the bird trio. Now it's the other way around? roll eyes (sarcastic)

MooCowofJustice
I said that? erm Rayquaza has the most feats of the Weather Trio, I don't know why I would have said that. Kyogre has type over Moltres, and that's it.

Moltres brings early spring to winter areas if it flies around them. Just by the scattering embers from it's wings. Moltres' fire is pretty hot. Rain isn't going to harm it. He controls fire, and dips in magma/lava to heal.

Zapdos controls electricity and either appears with a giant storm or an enormous lightning bolt. Or when a storm cloud splits in two. He can cause storms by releasing electricity flapping his wings. Platinum dex also says it freely controls lightning bolts.

Articuno can freeze water vapor which for some reason I think is impressive. It makes blizzards doing this, and I guess can be done involuntarily. Controls ice too.

As for Kyogre, creating the seas means he made it rain a lot. But as shown by the games it is not enough to damage anything as humans can walk about in it. MewTwo doesn't have a lot in the way of durability feats. He's a strong damage dealer and telekinetic.

Kyogre will have difficulties hitting Lugia, he is limited to the water. He may not even be able to attack without sticking his head out of the water to see.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I said that? erm
Yep.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
My honest opinons:

Golems beat Weather (barely)
Beasts beat Birds (also tough)
Beasts beat Golems
Birds beat Golems
Weather beats Birds
Beasts beat Weather
Mew Trio stomps all. Especially with Deoxys as a special summon.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Moltres brings early spring to winter areas if it flies around them. Just by the scattering embers from it's wings. Moltres' fire is pretty hot. Rain isn't going to harm it. He controls fire, and dips in magma/lava to heal.
Kyogre can simply expand the sea by covering the land/magma/lava with torrential rains and towering tidal waves. Moltres won't have anything to dip in after that.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Zapdos controls electricity and either appears with a giant storm or an enormous lightning bolt. Or when a storm cloud splits in two. He can cause storms by releasing electricity flapping his wings.
Cool. Kyogre can create clouds that cover the entire sky and bring about torrential downpours. Admittedly though, he might have a little trouble with Zapdos due to Zap being slightly faster, but he can likely still take him with Ice Beam, and Articuno with a no-miss Thunder.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
As for Kyogre, creating the seas means he made it rain a lot. But as shown by the games it is not enough to damage anything as humans can walk about in it.
Everyone in the games took shelter because of how dangerous Kyogre's torrential downpours became when he battled with Groudon. erm

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
MewTwo doesn't have a lot in the way of durability feats. He's a strong damage dealer and telekinetic.
And can destroy the planet. More than enough to beat the bird trio.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Kyogre will have difficulties hitting Lugia, he is limited to the water.
Doesn't matter. He can create torrential downpours/expand the sea anywhere he goes.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
He may not even be able to attack without sticking his head out of the water to see.
You saying Kyogre can't even see his opponents while underwater? Now you're just downplaying.

Kyogre doesn't have to stick his head out of the water to do an attack like Thunder. Ice Beam maybe, but not Thunder.

Lugia fights underwater too some if I recall right. If they fight there, Kyogre wins even easier.
If Lugia stays in the sky and just relies on projectiles like Aeroblast, Kyogre can dodge them easily by diving deep underwater from the torrential downpours it creates.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Yep.

K, but there is more in the weather trio than Kyogre. Namely Rayquaza.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Kyogre can simply expand the sea by covering the land/magma/lava with torrential rains and towering tidal waves. Moltres won't have anything to dip in after that.

His rain has shown no ability to cool magma. It shows nothing to set it apart from normal rain apart from being a heavier rain. And Team Aqua wanted to cool a volcano to let it fill with rainwater.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Cool. Kyogre can create clouds that cover the entire sky and bring about torrential downpours. Admittedly though, he might have a little trouble with Zapdos due to Zap being slightly faster, but he can likely still take him with Ice Beam, and Articuno with a no-miss Thunder.

The entire sky takes a while. In Sapphire his rainclouds cover only an area around Sootopolis city, but I believe it was said it would grow if it had been given enough time.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Everyone in the games took shelter because of how dangerous Kyogre's torrential downpours became when he battled with Groudon. erm

Except for Steven, the player character and multiple other people.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
And can destroy the planet. More than enough to beat the bird trio.

Unless, you know, they hit him. Not a doubt in my mind that he would easily defeat them, but not that he would get back up when they hit him.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Doesn't matter. He can create torrential downpours/expand the sea anywhere he goes.

K. The point of me posting about the birds was not to say they'd all lose to Kyogre one on one, but to show the damage Lugia's barriers can actually take, and that all three at once would probably beat Kyogre.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
You saying Kyogre can't even see his opponents while underwater? Now you're just downplaying.

Kyogre doesn't have to stick his head out of the water to do an attack like Thunder. Ice Beam maybe, but not Thunder.

Lugia fights underwater too some if I recall right. If they fight there, Kyogre wins even easier.
If Lugia stays in the sky and just relies on projectiles like Aeroblast, Kyogre can dodge them easily by diving deep underwater from the torrential downpours it creates.

1. When they're flying hundreds of feet in the air? Yeah.

2. Really? So why do his thunder attacks have magical non-miss properties?

3. He can, but he can also fly. And so far we haven't seen him do much fighting under water. But those giant whirlpool/water spouts of his are pretty strong. As are his tackles.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Unless, you know, they hit him. Not a doubt in my mind that he would easily defeat them, but not that he would get back up when they hit him.
Fair 'nuff then.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
K. The point of me posting about the birds was not to say they'd all lose to Kyogre one on one, but to show the damage Lugia's barriers can actually take, and that all three at once would probably beat Kyogre.
The only one of the three that actually have super-effective attacks against Kyogre though is Zapdos, and is the only one that is faster than Ky, even if only slightly. A Surf or Water Spout will take down Moltres and a quick Thunder deals with Articuno. And with Kyogre's uber special defense, it can take plenty of Zapdos's electric attacks, enough to eventually take Zap out with Ice Beam.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
1. When they're flying hundreds of feet in the air? Yeah.

2. Really? So why do his thunder attacks have magical non-miss properties?

3. He can, but he can also fly. And so far we haven't seen him do much fighting under water. But those giant whirlpool/water spouts of his are pretty strong. As are his tackles.
1. Okay. You got me there, but like I said, Kyogre easily dodges their projectile attacks by diving underwater, and if Lugia wants to get him, he'll probably have to follow him underwater, where Kyogre has the most advantage. Otherwise, it'll be an endless stall battle.

2. Because that's the way it works in the games with Kyogre's Drizzle trait/ability. Thunder's accuracy becomes increased to 100% instead of staying at 70 like with Rain Dance. To deny this would be downplaying him.

3. True.

Heythere,Honey
I'm leaning more towards Ky now, but the fanboi in me just keeps saying Lugia.

BloodRain
Thunder isn't made into a never-miss move by being put up to 100% in this KMC world. Its got the same chances of hitting as every other 100% move that gets argued here. Lugia's advantage of flight and swim is a big one for this fight combined with his barrier that can take alot of damage and his own Thunder, being underwater wouldn't change the outcome either.

Ridley_Prime
Yes it would, and there's hardly any doubt in my mind that Lugia's barrier would break when hit by Kyogre's Sheer Cold attack.

BloodRain
Flamethrower also has 100% but no one says that its always going to land its mark.

MooCowofJustice
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
1. Okay. You got me there, but like I said, Kyogre easily dodges their projectile attacks by diving underwater, and if Lugia wants to get him, he'll probably have to follow him underwater, where Kyogre has the most advantage. Otherwise, it'll be an endless stall battle.

True. However, I still think Lugia's barriers can take several attacks from Kyogre. But he might not even be able to use them under water.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
2. Because that's the way it works in the games with Kyogre's Drizzle trait/ability. Thunder's accuracy becomes increased to 100% instead of staying at 70 like with Rain Dance. To deny this would be downplaying him.

Dammit.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
3. True.

Quite.

So, Kyogre probably wins. But it's because Lugia has to go underwater to fight Kyogre because Kyogre cannot fly. Lugia is not the best fighter under water from what we've seen. Chances are, Kyogre wins there.

But I'm not happy about it.

Ridley_Prime
Originally posted by BloodRain
Flamethrower also has 100% but no one says that its always going to land its mark.
Point taken.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
True. However, I still think Lugia's barriers can take several attacks from Kyogre. But he might not even be able to use them under water.
Depends I guess. Doubt the barrier can take Kyogre's Sheer Cold though as mentioned before.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Quite.

So, Kyogre probably wins. But it's because Lugia has to go underwater to fight Kyogre because Kyogre cannot fly. Lugia is not the best fighter under water from what we've seen. Chances are, Kyogre wins there.
Being underwater will also give Kyogre a chance to use Body Slam (which may paralyze Lugia since Kyogre weighs considerably more), Scary Face, Double Edge, and what not against it, so yeah. erm

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
But I'm not happy about it.
Eh, understandable. I'm no big fan or anything of Kyogre myself to be honest. stick out tongue

Demonic Phoenix
Kyogre's the lesser of two evils though biscuits

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