Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

The same idea from my other thread only applied here as both sides had all characters originate in video games so it evens out.


Do Kain and Raziel's forces prevail over Ganondorf and Link's?

Nope.

Now everybody agree before BT shows up.

WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS?

You have no idea what kind of shitstorm you unleashed...

SHUT UP AND AGREE BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

Quanchi, with this thread you have just created the most potentially epic shitstorm this section will have seen in awhile.

For that, I salute you.

(On a serious note the two verses match up fairly well power level wise.)

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Quanchi, with this thread you have just created the most potentially epic shitstorm this section will have seen in awhile.

For that, I salute you.

(On a serious note the two verses match up fairly well power level wise.) Do Zelda fans and Kain fans clash on here?

Not so much clash as battle to the death. It actually got to a point where Zelda characters were brought up in threads they weren't even in.

You could say that.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Do Zelda fans and BurningThought clash on here?

Fixed, and yes, more or less.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
It actually got to a point where Zelda characters were brought up in threads they weren't even in.

I'd go as far as to say it happens in about 50% of the threads.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Not so much clash as battle to the death. It actually got to a point where Zelda characters were brought up in threads they weren't even in. I remember burning thought for being a huge Kain supporter from when they let video game characters into the vs. section of the comic book part of this board.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
You could say that. As long as it's civil let's have some fun. Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Fixed, and yes, more or less. Just him, huh?

Originally posted by quanchi112
As long as it's civil

Good luck with that.

The thread title should have "Abandon all hope ye who enter here" on it.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Good luck with that.

The thread title should have "Abandon all hope ye who enter here" on it.

I'm hoping for epic lulz

Who else besides those two is on the LoK side?

Originally posted by BloodRain
Who else besides those two is on the LoK side? Every friend or foe in the game.

^ All I know of that sounds threatening is the Elder God.(?) How are the others?

This is ridiculous spite in LoK favour, youve given them the Elder God whos spectral ass could level thir continent and simply devour those who die in the great chasm he creates through the Earth and rebirth them in his own wheel.

Also When you say Defiance, LoK being a very time orientated game, there was characters alive during defiance that are alive during the whole LoK series. including sorcerors who created Dark Eden, a region sized version of what Ganon did to the Golden world. Only ofc it will be LoZ characters messed up.

I could probably argue that Kain and Raziel can take this on their own. Although this thread is more interesting to me than others.

Originally posted by BloodRain
^ All I know of that sounds threatening is the Elder God.(?) How are the others? Let me find a link. This game is old. I still desperately want a sequel to this beolved franchise but have to stomach terrible tomb raiders by this studio.

Besides Kain, Raz and The Octomite who else is threatening on that side?

Universe vs universe, do the Hylden get a go? the Hylden race cursed the ancients to becoming vampires en-mass. The device could supposedly kill every living thing on the world with a thought although I am not sure of its specifics, it was a claim.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Besides Kain, Raz and The Octomite who else is threatening on that side? Hashagik/possessed janos, giant Vampire can't recall his name which you had to use sound to hurt, Vorador, Ariel, Moebius that I can remember plus scrubs enemies.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Universe vs universe, do the Hylden get a go? the Hylden race cursed the ancients to becoming vampires en-mass. The device could supposedly kill every living thing on the world with a thought although I am not sure of its specifics, it was a claim. Just the janos possessed one from defiance no device in blood omen 2.

Possession is also important. As soon as the imprisonment that kept the dimensionso f the Hylden and Nosgoth apart broke. Hylden lord possessed Janos straight off the bat without having to do anything at all...instant possession...

That knocks out one of the key players, preferably Link as he can beat Ganon, the only major threat to LoK.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Possession is also important. As soon as the imprisonment that kept the dimensionso f the Hylden and Nosgoth apart broke. Hylden lord possessed Janos straight off the bat without having to do anything at all...instant possession...

That knocks out one of the key players, preferably Link as he can beat Ganon, the only major threat to LoK. He cannot possess any zelda character only janos and if they defeat janos he's out.

Link doesn't get possessed as long as he's holding the Master Sword.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Link doesn't get possessed as long as he's holding the Master Sword. In any event it's a cheap tactic that isn't allowed and I could say Ganondorf possesses one of the lok characters as he did against Zelda. It's not allowed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He cannot possess any zelda character only janos and if they defeat janos he's out.

Damn fair enough. Would be a cheap win though....

Ok so Elder God solos...

They cant see him, sense him but he can topple the world their on through sheer size, eat their souls and rebirth them as peasents through the wheel of fate.

Fun fact, Link has an ability to sense evil's presence. And Wolf form can see spirits, as well as harm them.

Elder God is not a spirit. And what is it with you and this "evil" label you want to place on links enemies? the Elder God is a parasite like a leech. Leeches are not evil...their just natural.

Physiology is not what deems things evil.

From what I have heard of the elder leech, he sounds like something that could be labeled as evil.

Wolf bites arnt that much to fear anyway.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Damn fair enough. Would be a cheap win though....

Ok so Elder God solos...

They cant see him, sense him but he can topple the world their on through sheer size, eat their souls and rebirth them as peasents through the wheel of fate. Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Fun fact, Link has an ability to sense evil's presence. And Wolf form can see spirits, as well as harm them. Good and fair point as his senses allow him to see things human form Link cannot. Burning, you are trying to desperately to give the advantage to Lok. None of this plot device madness where Light arrows are required or the master sword is to defeat ganondorf so to be fair all sides can see each other. There's no plot device where they need to combine soulreavers to see the elder god here.

Wolf Link is a lot stronger than a normal wolf. He and Midna stop charges from Boar Ganon.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Good and fair point as his senses allow him to see things human form Link cannot. Burning, you are trying to desperately to give the advantage to Lok. None of this plot device madness where Light arrows are required or the master sword is to defeat ganondorf so to be fair all sides can see each other. There's no plot device where they need to combine soulreavers to see the elder god here.


Taking a canon factor for the Elder God is not "desperatly trying to give an advantage", as its canon it is an advantage. As is being a continent sized octopus that can fire energy bolts from its eyes and regenerate AND multiply its thousands of limbs.

those are plot devices and no limit fallacies, what I am mensioning is Elder Gods form. The only beings who can see the Elder God are those who he allows to see him OR those purified like Kain. Being a soul reaver Raziel could percieve the EG but even Moebius as a spirit could not see the Elder God when he was standing right in front of him.

The Elder God is beyond LoZ even when visible and attackable, they slice off a couple of tentacles only to have multiples of that number reform. I doubt LoZ has an entity of Elder Gods multi/dimentional form so Link being a wolf and sniffing out some ghosts is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Taking a canon factor for the Elder God is not "desperatly trying to give an advantage", as its canon it is an advantage. As is being a continent sized octopus that can fire energy bolts from its eyes and regenerate AND multiply its thousands of limbs.

those are plot devices and no limit fallacies, what I am mensioning is Elder Gods form. The only beings who can see the Elder God are those who he allows to see him OR those purified like Kain. Being a soul reaver Raziel could percieve the EG but even Moebius as a spirit could not see the Elder God when he was standing right in front of him.

The Elder God is beyond LoZ even when visible and attackable, they slice off a couple of tentacles only to have multiples of that number reform. I doubt LoZ has an entity of Elder Gods multi/dimentional form so Link being a wolf and sniffing out some ghosts is irrelevant. I am not trying to cheat the lok side I am merely stating they can see and attack him. For these threads to be fair you have to take out the plot devices required in the game while you just tried keeping one.

He retains his size and powers which is fair and they can see him which is fair.

No, you aren't being fair and are trying to tilt the thread into a onesided stomp where they can't even see or fight their opponent. You don't need light arrows and don't need the combined soulreaver here to see and defeat him.

So then the elder leech let Kain kick his non-existent ass?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am not trying to cheat the lok side I am merely stating they can see and attack him. For these threads to be fair you have to take out the plot devices required in the game while you just tried keeping one.

He retains his size and powers which is fair and they can see him which is fair.

No, you aren't being fair and are trying to tilt the thread into a onesided stomp where they can't even see or fight their opponent. You don't need light arrows and don't need the combined soulreaver here to see and defeat him.

the Elder Gods status is not a plot device. its what the Elder God is. Kain acquiring the power to see the Elder God however is a plot event.

But fair enough, they can see him. They can see whos leveling the continent and smothering them.

How do you propose they stand against the Elder God, he who puts Titans to shame in size, who multiplies and regenerates mass quicker than most regen in games and who has the strength to burrow and hold up the Earths mantle?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
So then the elder leech let Kain kick his non-existent ass?

No, the Soul reaver itself is the plot device for damaging EG. but at the same time its not a no limit fallacy, it just so happens that spiritual and physical attacks dont harm the Elder God in canon.

Originally posted by Burning thought
the Elder Gods status is not a plot device. its what the Elder God is. Kain acquiring the power to see the Elder God however is a plot event.

But fair enough, they can see him. They can see whos leveling the continent and smothering them.

How do you propose they stand against the Elder God, he who puts Titans to shame in size, who multiplies and regenerates mass quicker than most regen in games and who has the strength to burrow and hold up the Earths mantle?



No, the Soul reaver itself is the plot device for damaging EG. but at the same time its not a no limit fallacy, it just so happens that spiritual and physical attacks dont harm the Elder God in canon. You still need a plot device to see and defeat him which isn't allowed in these forums hence why light arrows aren't allowed in these things either. It's the same thing but since you like lok yours counts while the zelda side doesn't.

Ganondorf can take him on. The guy's battle easily leveled a castle to the ground and he was in peak condition after being harassed by Link and attacked by a very powerful Midna.

I didn't see "no Triforce" in the OP.

Lol, yeah, Elder Leech can be harmed by things other than the Soul Reaver. For one, because the OP says so. And for two, because that is actually a no limit fallacy. It just so happens that you need the MS to defeat Ganon in canon as well.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You still need a plot device to see and defeat him which isn't allowed in these forums hence why light arrows aren't allowed in these things either. It's the same thing but since you like lok yours counts while the zelda side doesn't.

Ganondorf can take him on. The guy's battle easily leveled a castle to the ground and he was in peak condition after being harassed by Link and attacked by a very powerful Midna.



No, Kain needed a plot event. Raziel could see Elder God just fine. It just so happens that due to his physical form. No, claiming light arrows are required in this fight is a no limit fallacy, a failure of logic based on the limitations of the Zelda universe.


Ok what battle? if your refering to the midna fight I want to see how you argue this. Its been argued to death on how ambigious the scene is. Are you saying Ganon leveled the castle, Midna leveled it? if so, how insignificant would this be compared to the Elder God who can multiply and regenerate limbs across his continent sized form? if Elder Gods limbs all swing at once, they would throttle the whole LoZ side, including Ganon.


Originally posted by LLLLLink
I didn't see "no Triforce" in the OP.


Trust me, theres far more than knights and some old sages in Lok

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Lol, yeah, Elder Leech can be harmed by things other than the Soul Reaver. For one, because the OP says so. And for two, because that is actually a no limit fallacy. It just so happens that you need the MS to defeat Ganon in canon as well.


Link does, unlike the EG Ganon is not a multi reality being who is intangible to both spirit and physical realms.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, Kain needed a plot event. Raziel could see Elder God just fine. It just so happens that due to his physical form. No, claiming light arrows are required in this fight is a no limit fallacy, a failure of logic based on the limitations of the Zelda universe.


Ok what battle? if your refering to the midna fight I want to see how you argue this. Its been argued to death on how ambigious the scene is. Are you saying Ganon leveled the castle, Midna leveled it? if so, how insignificant would this be compared to the Elder God who can multiply and regenerate limbs across his continent sized form? if Elder Gods limbs all swing at once, they would throttle the whole LoZ side, including Ganon.





Trust me, theres far more than knights and some old sages in Lok




Link does, unlike the EG Ganon is not a multi reality being who is intangible to both spirit and physical realms. So did Link.

Without Zelda using the light spirits to aid Link against Ganondorf he was screwed. That's a plot event as well. I am the threadstarter and they see him which you agreed on so if you don't like it that doesn't mean it will change.

Their battle destroyed the castle and he was unscathed. That's actually what happened so the guy's a major player and the he's chosen by the gods to represent basically, power.


Again, you try a powerset argument to which he could do no such thing against Kain in combat. Quit just making up stuff now to give them the advantage.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So did Link.

Without Zelda using the light spirits to aid Link against Ganondorf he was screwed. That's a plot event as well. I am the threadstarter and they see him which you agreed on so if you don't like it that doesn't mean it will change.

Their battle destroyed the castle and he was unscathed. That's actually what happened so the guy's a major player and the he's chosen by the gods to represent basically, power.


Again, you try a powerset argument to which he could do no such thing against Kain in combat. Quit just making up stuff now to give them the advantage.


So did Link what?

Who said i dont like it? I am argueing truth, I dont really care. Its your rules, your thread etc and it was a plot event but Ganons not shown any special traits like EG has.

Although Midna also survived the battle as well didnt she? We dont see what actually happened, just that power from one of them broke the castle.

This is not a powerset, just physical statistics. Its the same as saying a Titan steps on someone, its just something it can do.

He might as well just quit arguing with the person who sets the rules of the thread. >_>

Originally posted by Burning thought
So did Link what?

Who said i dont like it? I am argueing truth, I dont really care. Its your rules, your thread etc and it was a plot event but Ganons not shown any special traits like EG has.

Although Midna also survived the battle as well didnt she? We dont see what actually happened, just that power from one of them broke the castle.

This is not a powerset, just physical statistics. Its the same as saying a Titan steps on someone, its just something it can do. Link needed a plot event just like Kain did to defeat his opponent.

Yes, he is. I could care less why you think exceptions only get made for the side you support and the funny thing is I love lok. Absolutely love it but you want any way you can get to say their side wins. You actually think it's fair for them to fight an opponent they can't see or touch.

Yes, but she was down and out. Ganondorf prevailed and took her little hat.


Elder god did no such thing against Kain so it's you making up a tactic we have never seen.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Link needed a plot event just like Kain did to defeat his opponent.

Yes, he is. I could care less why you think exceptions only get made for the side you support and the funny thing is I love lok. Absolutely love it but you want any way you can get to say their side wins. You actually think it's fair for them to fight an opponent they can't see or touch.

Yes, but she was down and out. Ganondorf prevailed and took her little hat.


Elder god did no such thing against Kain so it's you making up a tactic we have never seen.

We dont know Link "needed" as Ganons not been tested against other powers, certainly not from other universes.

I am all for having the sides at full potential, if you want to make exceptions so that the LoZ side can fight fairly then thats fine. I dont think its fair that the Elder God is in this fight at all.

So his power was not enough to harm a little imp, she was defeated and lost the fused shadows but thats it...not a scratch on her.

Thats because he would shatter Nosgoth and kill himself in the process....he has no problem with that in this matchup.

Originally posted by Burning thought
We dont know Link "needed" as Ganons not been tested against other powers, certainly not from other universes.

I am all for having the sides at full potential, if you want to make exceptions so that the LoZ side can fight fairly then thats fine. I dont think its fair that the Elder God is in this fight at all.

So his power was not enough to harm a little imp, she was defeated and lost the fused shadows but thats it...not a scratch on her.

Thats because he would shatter Nosgoth and kill himself in the process....he has no problem with that in this matchup. The same goes for the elder god. Who knows if Link could see elder god just because characters from his own world couldn't. I can throw every piece of logic right back at you.

There are no exceptions I am doing this equally for both sides.

Do you actually think it's fair to have two armies go at it while ignoring Link's plot items completely while allowing the elder god to be unattackable?

He defeated her. Case closed. She was out of the fight and Ganondorf rode off like a studmuffin.

He wouldn't shatter himself if he sent various tentacles after Kain at the same time. He would need no more than like 20 to completely overwhelm him.

I'm still trying to think of of this in an army based way, without the big characters. As I see it, Zelda has the advantage in numbers. It also has the Twilight Realm, which no one in LoK can reach, and can cover LoK in Twilight. Twilight Beasts are much harder to kill and keep dead than vampires are (Kain's dimensional teleport is literally the only thing that would work reliably).

In addition, I don't see LoK even touching the Zoras, as too few vampires can stand running water. So Lake Hylia will be a fairly large advantage here. We know Gorons don't need to breathe and can survive underwater, that's more points for the lake. Add in those special waterproof bombs and exploding fish, and hey, pretty good safe area.

Speaking of Gorons, those guys are tough. Best feat they have is one of them getting launched out of a volcano inside a chunk of semi-solid magma, then getting dropped through several layers of ice, and then coming out unharmed. He even tries to sell you things afterward. Further, Death Mountain is constantly erupting, dropping flaming rocks on everything that moves.

Gorons are also > thick rock walls and are casual lava walkers.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I'm still trying to think of of this in an army based way, without the big characters. As I see it, Zelda has the advantage in numbers. It also has the Twilight Realm, which no one in LoK can reach, and can cover LoK in Twilight. Twilight Beasts are much harder to kill and keep dead than vampires are (Kain's dimensional teleport is literally the only thing that would work reliably).

In addition, I don't see LoK even touching the Zoras, as too few vampires can stand running water. So Lake Hylia will be a fairly large advantage here. We know Gorons don't need to breathe and can survive underwater, that's more points for the lake. Add in those special waterproof bombs and exploding fish, and hey, pretty good safe area.

Speaking of Gorons, those guys are tough. Best feat they have is one of them getting launched out of a volcano inside a chunk of semi-solid magma, then getting dropped through several layers of ice, and then coming out unharmed. He even tries to sell you things afterward. Further, Death Mountain is constantly erupting, dropping flaming rocks on everything that moves. I think every realm can be accessed through distances as it's only fair. I also see them sending in Raziel to Lake Hylia along with a bunch of vampire hunters and Moebius.

Oh please, guys. Ganon spreads Twilight over the battlefield, turning everyone into his minions, 'cept Link, who has the Master Sword.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Oh please, guys. Ganon spreads Twilight over the battlefield, turning everyone into his minions, 'cept Link, who has the Master Sword. Don't start going all burning thought on me now.

Oh, where do you think Zant got the power to spread Twilight in the world of light? That's right, kids! It's Zant's god, Ganondorf!

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Oh, where do you think Zant got the power to spread Twilight in the world of light? That's right, kids! It's Zant's god, Ganondorf! I know you're joking but this tactic wouldn't be allowed anyways as both sides can't cheaply win but instead have to man up and destroy each other.

Not joking at all, but if it's against the rules, oh well.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Not joking at all, but if it's against the rules, oh well. Yes, it's like a plot device thing like Ganondorf possessing someone or the Hashagik possessing someone from zelda. I want both sides to duke it put physically.


I see Kain taking half the forces while Raziel takes the other half whereas Link splits his forces with Ganondorf doing the same here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I also see them sending in Raziel to Lake Hylia along with a bunch of vampire hunters and Moebius.

I figured that. Raziel and the Rahabim were the only vampires to actually survive in water. However, Rahabim are still vulnerable to sunlight.

I'm not so sure about Moebius and his hunters, though. How good are they?

Speaking of sunlight, the Sun's song will be a pain in the arse for the vamps.
Undead and weak to sunlight? That's not good.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, it's like a plot device thing like Ganondorf possessing someone or the Hashagik possessing someone from zelda. I want both sides to duke it put physically.


Yeah, I can understand that. But there is a bit of cheapness on both sides. For instance:

LoK vampire weaknesses: impalement and fire

Bulbin primary weapon: flaming arrows



Eh, Ganondorf has his own army, as do Zant, Midna, and Zelda. Link could take the Gorons and Zoras, though.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yeah, I can understand that. But there is a bit of cheapness on both sides. For instance:

LoK vampire weaknesses: impalement and fire

Bulbin primary weapon: flaming arrows



Eh, Ganondorf has his own army, as do Zant, Midna, and Zelda. Link could take the Gorons and Zoras, though. They can exploit their weaknesses that seems fair.

Who did you consider in Ganondorf's army?

Moebius had his own band of vampire hunters as well which could be considered a smaller army.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I figured that. Raziel and the Rahabim were the only vampires to actually survive in water. However, Rahabim are still vulnerable to sunlight.

I'm not so sure about Moebius and his hunters, though. How good are they? Good in numbers. Moebius was also capable of time travel but for the purposes of this thread he can use them to teleport in not to go back in time and use this as a cheap tactic.

Don't forget about Vorador as well.

Ganondorf can create his own minions to be his army. Moblins, Queen Gohma, revived Volvagia, Morpha (controls water; how inconvienient), Iron Knuckles, etc.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Speaking of sunlight, the Sun's song will be a pain in the arse for the vamps.
Undead and weak to sunlight? That's not good.
TP Link doesn't know the sun song.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who did you consider in Ganondorf's army?


His usual minions- Redeads, Stalfos and Darknuts being the big three. I think the Bulbins follow him, as well.

Zant and Midna have Twilight stuff- Twilight Beasts, most of the twilight formed creatures.

Zelda controls the Hylian military, as useless as they are, and Gorons and Zoras just rule themselves.

Originally posted by ares834
TP Link doesn't know the sun song.

Oh, shi-... This is TP Link, isn't it. Thanks for the notice.

Originally posted by The Scenario
His usual minions- Redeads, Stalfos and Darknuts being the big three. I think the Bulbins follow him, as well.

Zant and Midna have Twilight stuff- Twilight Beasts, most of the twilight formed creatures.

Zelda controls the Hylian military, as useless as they are, and Gorons and Zoras just rule themselves. I'm not up on the enemies names which characters in the game I mean which part did we see his minions. All throughout hyrule castle? I know he can shoot demon riders but to me it seemed like the same enemies we saw throughout the game were just littered towards the end of the game.Originally posted by LLLLLink
Oh, shi-... This is TP Link, isn't it. Thanks for the notice. I wondered what you actually meant there.

Those demon riders are actually phantom Ganon's.

Also, I have a secret weakness for not reading the OP.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Those demon riders are actually phantom Ganon's.

Also, I have a secret weakness for not reading the OP. Oh are they I couldn't tell when they either ran by me or into me.

Quick question llllink what did Zant mean iyo at the end of the game when they showed him tilt his head right before the life left ganondorf's body?

Lol'd.

In seriousness, Ganondorf more than likely soloes everything that isn't the Elder god, and Link kills that within a few moments.

That is one of the questions that is still being debated, but I'll give you an idea.

Some people believe that Zant was Ganondorf's "medium" or link to the world of light from wherever he was when he gave Zant power. He probably wasn't in the Twilight Realm (even though we saw him get sucked in; I'll explain later), otherwise he would not need to use Zant at all; he could have just done everything himself minus a psychopath.
This is were the timeline BS kicks in. OoT: In OoT, Ganon received the Triforce of Power when he claimed the Triforce and it split because his heart was not in balance. However, in TP, we see that neither the sages nor Ganondorf himself was aware that he had the ToP, and the sages themselves say that by some divine prank he obtained it right at that moment. Mega contridiction. This is what makes it confusing as to where Ganondorf actually was. Was he still sealed in the Sacred Realm, or was he in the Twilight world?

So anyway, some people think that when Zant broke his neck, it broke Ganondorf's link to the world of light, and he was no longer in the body that was left in the world of light, which is probably why we don't see Ganondorf get sealed or turned to stone.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Besides Kain, Raz and The Octomite who else is threatening on that side?

A Timestreamer, Mortanius, Janos Audron & Turel. The capabilities of the latter two are a little foggy to me.

Spectral enemies such as the Vampire Pillar Guardians aren't usable. Things in the Spectral Realm usually cannot harm people in the Physical.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
That is one of the questions that is still being debated, but I'll give you an idea.

Some people believe that Zant was Ganondorf's "medium" or link to the world of light from wherever he was when he gave Zant power. He probably wasn't in the Twilight Realm (even though we saw him get sucked in; I'll explain later), otherwise he would not need to use Zant at all; he could have just done everything himself minus a psychopath.
This is were the timeline BS kicks in. OoT: In OoT, Ganon received the Triforce of Power when he claimed the Triforce and it split because his heart was not in balance. However, in TP, we see that neither the sages nor Ganondorf himself was aware that he had the ToP, and the sages themselves say that by some divine prank he obtained it right at that moment. Mega contridiction. This is what makes it confusing as to where Ganondorf actually was. Was he still sealed in the Sacred Realm, or was he in the Twilight world?

So anyway, some people think that when Zant broke his neck, it broke Ganondorf's link to the world of light, and he was no longer in the body that was left in the world of light, which is probably why we don't see Ganondorf get sealed or turned to stone. Thanks for putting spoilers and I won't read it until I go through oot. I don't want any events of the game spoiled because I will be playing this game.

It does look like Zant abandoned him right at the end so maybe he will make his major play to the ultimate baddie in the sequel if it is a continuation to tp that is.

I for one think he was nowhere even near Ganondorf in coolness but that's just me.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Lol'd.

In seriousness, Ganondorf more than likely soloes everything that isn't the Elder god, and Link kills that within a few moments. You kidding me? First off how is he beating Kain?

Originally posted by The Scenario
I'm still trying to think of of this in an army based way, without the big characters. As I see it, Zelda has the advantage in numbers. It also has the Twilight Realm, which no one in LoK can reach, and can cover LoK in Twilight. Twilight Beasts are much harder to kill and keep dead than vampires are (Kain's dimensional teleport is literally the only thing that would work reliably).

In addition, I don't see LoK even touching the Zoras, as too few vampires can stand running water. So Lake Hylia will be a fairly large advantage here. We know Gorons don't need to breathe and can survive underwater, that's more points for the lake. Add in those special waterproof bombs and exploding fish, and hey, pretty good safe area.

Speaking of Gorons, those guys are tough. Best feat they have is one of them getting launched out of a volcano inside a chunk of semi-solid magma, then getting dropped through several layers of ice, and then coming out unharmed. He even tries to sell you things afterward. Further, Death Mountain is constantly erupting, dropping flaming rocks on everything that moves.

What numbers exactly? do we even know the numbers?

Zant had to defeat Zelda and her men before he could call down twilight, he did not do it outright. Not sure about that, if were talking Kains brood of the ancient era you need to actually destroy their bodies or impale them and even Raziel who is immensly strong cannot do that with his concrete slicing claws, theres no use having hundreds of ants (LoZ soldiers) nibbling at a tank (Dumahim vampire).

If were talking Defiance era then we get the council sorcerors.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The same goes for the elder god. Who knows if Link could see elder god just because characters from his own world couldn't. I can throw every piece of logic right back at you.

There are no exceptions I am doing this equally for both sides.

Do you actually think it's fair to have two armies go at it while ignoring Link's plot items completely while allowing the elder god to be unattackable?

He defeated her. Case closed. She was out of the fight and Ganondorf rode off like a studmuffin.

He wouldn't shatter himself if he sent various tentacles after Kain at the same time. He would need no more than like 20 to completely overwhelm him.


What you just said is not logic, its a blatant guess based on nothing and ignoring the Elder Gods statistic as being a spectoral being.

Elder God being unattackable is not a plot item and if it was, it would be a no limit fallacy. Elder God being unattackable is simply because in reality the LoZ team have nothing to hit him, its simple fact.

Not really that impressive, we dont know how he did it either.

Gameplay limitatons.....

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Lol'd.

In seriousness, Ganondorf more than likely soloes everything that isn't the Elder god, and Link kills that within a few moments.





Originally posted by quanchi112


You kidding me? First off how is he beating Kain?


Hes not, he would have problems with some of the larger Vampires let alone the elite ones.

^Isnt the EG 'hittable' for this thread, technically falling under rule 12? Or just by the thread starters rules.

Hyrule doest have the numbers in their favour. Zora's, basically useless out of the water and the vampires weak to water (unless some idiot switch was flipped) wont be anywhere near the water and leave it to the one that don't have the weakness or can TK.

He is hittable in this thread yes. Its not going to make much of a difference as he is too large for them to deal with, even if they manage to get rid of a few tentacles (not like hes going to allow them), he can multiply and regen them in seconds. The Elder God by the end of this thead would be multiplied in size than the original assuming they managed to damage his tentacles at all.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What numbers exactly? do we even know the numbers?

Zant had to defeat Zelda and her men before he could call down twilight, he did not do it outright. Not sure about that, if were talking Kains brood of the ancient era you need to actually destroy their bodies or impale them and even Raziel who is immensly strong cannot do that with his concrete slicing claws, theres no use having hundreds of ants (LoZ soldiers) nibbling at a tank (Dumahim vampire).

If were talking Defiance era then we get the council sorcerors.




What you just said is not logic, its a blatant guess based on nothing and ignoring the Elder Gods statistic as being a spectoral being.

Elder God being unattackable is not a plot item and if it was, it would be a no limit fallacy. Elder God being unattackable is simply because in reality the LoZ team have nothing to hit him, its simple fact.

Not really that impressive, we dont know how he did it either.

Gameplay limitatons.....










Hes not, he would have problems with some of the larger Vampires let alone the elite ones. In any event he can see him and it's a copout on your part. Neither side needs plot events or weapons to injure or see the other opponents. This makes it possible for both sides to win.

Yes, just like Link needed help from the light spirits and Zelda to be able to take on Ganondorf and teleport away in time because he was screwed. He also needed help from Midnia to even damage the Ganon beast because he was too smart to be continually tricked by arrows.

How isn't it impressive especially considering how powerful each boss was with just one third of her power? Ganondorf crushed her like she was nothing and a castle was destroyed which was impressive. It's not the most impressive thing ever but to make light of it or to downplay it just because we didn't see how he defeated her solely because you like Lok more isn't being fair.


No, it isn't gameplay limitations it's just he can't fight in this manner despite the fact you want him to be able to.


Originally posted by Burning thought
He is hittable in this thread yes. Its not going to make much of a difference as he is too large for them to deal with, even if they manage to get rid of a few tentacles (not like hes going to allow them), he can multiply and regen them in seconds. The Elder God by the end of this thead would be multiplied in size than the original assuming they managed to damage his tentacles at all. He isn't too largeg for them to deal with by any means. Look at the size of some of the characters Link took on or how easily ganondorf destroyed Midna who was a huge powerful monster at the time.

Originally posted by quanchi112
In any event he can see him and it's a copout on your part. Neither side needs plot events or weapons to injure or see the other opponents. This makes it possible for both sides to win.

Yes, just like Link needed help from the light spirits and Zelda to be able to take on Ganondorf and teleport away in time because he was screwed. He also needed help from Midnia to even damage the Ganon beast because he was too smart to be continually tricked by arrows.

How isn't it impressive especially considering how powerful each boss was with just one third of her power? Ganondorf crushed her like she was nothing and a castle was destroyed which was impressive. It's not the most impressive thing ever but to make light of it or to downplay it just because we didn't see how he defeated her solely because you like Lok more isn't being fair.


No, it isn't gameplay limitations it's just he can't fight in this manner despite the fact you want him to be able to.


He isn't too largeg for them to deal with by any means. Look at the size of some of the characters Link took on or how easily ganondorf destroyed Midna who was a huge powerful monster at the time.

Only in this event, without fairness involved they could not.

Its not impressive because toppling an old medieval castle does not compare to a continent sized squid. Considering the Elder God burrows throughout the Earth, in the deepest places (deep areas of a planet are mostly metal, ore etc) with ease he would topple that castle with one tentacle himself.

Its physically certain that he can, your using the fact that the exact point you fight EG he only uses a part of his form. Youve allowed the whole Elder God as an entity.

huge powerful monster? Midna was what, probably 15+ feet tall at the most?

Quanchi, Ganondorf has amazing durability, physical strength, TK, and an array of many abilities. Most of Kain's powers don't have feats. If they do, BT has never showed them. He spends his time trying to downplay the other character. And when Kain is in trouble, he harps on his Mist form and Teleportation, neither of which are as useful as he would like to believe.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Only in this event, without fairness involved they could not.

Its not impressive because toppling an old medieval castle does not compare to a continent sized squid. Considering the Elder God burrows throughout the Earth, in the deepest places (deep areas of a planet are mostly metal, ore etc) with ease he would topple that castle with one tentacle himself.

Its physically certain that he can, your using the fact that the exact point you fight EG he only uses a part of his form. Youve allowed the whole Elder God as an entity.

huge powerful monster? Midna was what, probably 15+ feet tall at the most? Same goes with them needing the light arrows or the master sword so it evens out.


Kain defeated this squid so don't act like he's anything even remotely close to unbeatable by the hyrulian forces here.

This is how the character fights not you jumping into the character which a zelda fan can then do against you.

I don't know exactly how tall she was but she was extremely powerful and to take out a castle that quickly shows the battle let loose a lot of power. Why can't they bury the elder god in his tomb like Kain did?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Quanchi, Ganondorf has amazing durability, physical strength, TK, and an array of many abilities. Most of Kain's powers don't have feats. If they do, BT has never showed them. He spends his time trying to downplay the other character. And when Kain is in trouble, he harps on his Mist form and Teleportation, neither of which are as useful as he would like to believe. At the end of the day though Kain's soulreaver is going to do massive damage to Ganodorf if and when he connects. Both would be hurt by the other's sword.

I so see Kain having a definite speed advantage here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Same goes with them needing the light arrows or the master sword so it evens out.


Kain defeated this squid so don't act like he's anything even remotely close to unbeatable by the hyrulian forces here.

This is how the character fights not you jumping into the character which a zelda fan can then do against you.

I don't know exactly how tall she was but she was extremely powerful and to take out a castle that quickly shows the battle let loose a lot of power. Why can't they bury the elder god in his tomb like Kain did?

That would be a no limit fallacy claim based on the games rules, not actual statistics.

Kain has a so much more than the Hyrulian forces do.

Indeed this is how the character fights, not just some gameplay representation.

Kain did not "bury" the Elder God as the Elder God is a burrower, its already burried, miles across the land and beneath it. Whats stopping the EG from burying the entire Hyrulian army?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Quanchi, Ganondorf has amazing durability, physical strength, TK, and an array of many abilities. Most of Kain's powers don't have feats. If they do, BT has never showed them. He spends his time trying to downplay the other character. And when Kain is in trouble, he harps on his Mist form and Teleportation, neither of which are as useful as he would like to believe.


Lulz, he has some ambigious feats and some fan wanked ones. The real feats of Ganondorf, most of which I have seen (or not as the ambigious and assumed ones make evident) are sub par in a games vs. Raziel, Kain, Elder God and possibly a combination of council sorcerors can one hit Ganondorf, this does not work both ways.

Originally posted by Burning thought
That would be a no limit fallacy claim based on the games rules, not actual statistics.

Kain has a so much more than the Hyrulian forces do.

Indeed this is how the character fights, not just some gameplay representation.

Kain did not "bury" the Elder God as the Elder God is a burrower, its already burried, miles across the land and beneath it. Whats stopping the EG from burying the entire Hyrulian army?




Lulz, he has some ambigious feats and some fan wanked ones. The real feats of Ganondorf, most of which I have seen (or not as the ambigious and assumed ones make evident) are sub par in a games vs. Raziel, Kain, Elder God and possibly a combination of council sorcerors can one hit Ganondorf, this does not work both ways. It's the same thing here both sides have plot events required to do or see things so it's only fair. Anyways I am the threadstarter an dit's not allowed so it's moot anyways.

He had a sword and his abilities which defeated the squid while hyrule has an entire army.


Then you admit Kain mostly sword slashes instead of blasting magic while turning into mist like you claim?

He buried it as far as I can remember in the tomb and walked away. Either way the elder god can be killed so they won't have to bury him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's the same thing here both sides have plot events required to do or see things so it's only fair. Anyways I am the threadstarter an dit's not allowed so it's moot anyways.

He had a sword and his abilities which defeated the squid while hyrule has an entire army.


Then you admit Kain mostly sword slashes instead of blasting magic while turning into mist like you claim?

He buried it as far as I can remember in the tomb and walked away. Either way the elder god can be killed so they won't have to bury him.

An entire army not equivalent to kain and his specific powers, they dont have anything equel to Kain in abilities, variety or the reavers soul reaving purifying power.

I did not say that, I said were using real characters, not gameplay representation like your using. Kain will be teleporting, draining blood, calling lightning while shielding himself with the repel shield. Chances are he will kill most of the Hyrule army while empowering himself by drinking their blood, using the dimensional powers of the reaver his blows will mimic on nearby foes.

No, the Ancient citadel started to collapse, it was the Elder God who threatened to bury Kain. Killed through what? even if they can see and hit him, they have nothing to stop him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
At the end of the day though Kain's soulreaver is going to do massive damage to Ganodorf if and when he connects. Both would be hurt by the other's sword.

I so see Kain having a definite speed advantage here.

Kain lacks the strength to even break Ganondorf's skin.

Any speed advantage he may have is negligible. His main means of quick movement is teleportation, an ability Ganondorf shares.

Not proven by any evidence whatsoever.

Only in your world.

The real one? thats true dat!

Originally posted by Burning thought
An entire army not equivalent to kain and his specific powers, they dont have anything equel to Kain in abilities, variety or the reavers soul reaving purifying power.

I did not say that, I said were using real characters, not gameplay representation like your using. Kain will be teleporting, draining blood, calling lightning while shielding himself with the repel shield. Chances are he will kill most of the Hyrule army while empowering himself by drinking their blood, using the dimensional powers of the reaver his blows will mimic on nearby foes.

No, the Ancient citadel started to collapse, it was the Elder God who threatened to bury Kain. Killed through what? even if they can see and hit him, they have nothing to stop him. They don't need his reaver to kill him. How can you not get it? That's like a zelda fan saying they don't have light arrows and the master sword so they can't beat Ganondorf.

Hahahahahahaah, I love Kain but don't get ridiculous he can't solo an army and never could. None of these characters can. These heroes/villains hunt other characters down one on one basically they don't eradicate armies on their own in one gigantic battle. Why do you think Kain had to go back in time against william the just? Might have screwed the name up since it's been close to 7 years since I have played it.

They can damage him wit their attacks just like Kain damaged the elder god with his attacks. They don't need a plot device to hurt him.

Cute. Ironic considering this is a LOK vs TP thread. Two games that contain some of the ugliest characters I've ever seen (Kain and midna).

Originally posted by quanchi112
They don't need his reaver to kill him. How can you not get it? That's like a zelda fan saying they don't have light arrows and the master sword so they can't beat Ganondorf.

Hahahahahahaah, I love Kain but don't get ridiculous he can't solo an army and never could. None of these characters can. These heroes/villains hunt other characters down one on one basically they don't eradicate armies on their own in one gigantic battle. Why do you think Kain had to go back in time against william the just? Might have screwed the name up since it's been close to 7 years since I have played it.

They can damage him wit their attacks just like Kain damaged the elder god with his attacks. They don't need a plot device to hurt him.

Because your holding the shit end of the stick. The reaver is not just a plot device, its the only weapon that can strike the Elder God and damage him, neither physical or spiritual means can harm or even see him normally. This is actual canon, not some fanon based on a no limit fallacy because a boy has nothing other than light arrows to harm a nigh physically featless "king of evil".

Your so sure about that are you? with dimentional teleport he can phase throughout the entire battlefield, every dimentional strike warps onto all nearby targets. This chain reaction of teleportation/warp as well as the soul reavers own powers that blast the target to piecies both body and soul would leave hyrule army a mess. Kain had to go back in time because that was during the Blood omen 1 era, I am not sure he even had the Soul reaver at that time or half of his useful spells.

As I said, the plot did not allow the Elder God use more than a part of his form in the ancient citadel otherwise he would harm himself. If your chucking out plot devices then this is taken away and the Elder God has his full power to deal with hyrule. This battle afaik is not set in Nosgoth, taking into account LoK canon storyline.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Kain lacks the strength to even break Ganondorf's skin.

Any speed advantage he may have is negligible. His main means of quick movement is teleportation, an ability Ganondorf shares. That's about as ridiculous as bt claiming Kain annihilates hyrules' entire army.

Kain swings his sword at Ganondorf and he bleeds and vice versa.


Kain seemed a lot stronger and more skilled than Link from twilight princess.

BT, you don't know anything about Zelda. It was actually stated that you need the Master Sword to defeat Ganondorf, it's not some shit we made up based on not having any other weapon.

Idiot.

I know plenty, I know that the sages sword impaled Ganondorf, I know that Ganondorf was defeated when Link had no Master sword as well. Youve wanked Ganondorf without end on this no limit fallacy. Link has no other powerful weapons used in canon against dorf, hence why Ganondorf is semi-featless besides your fanon.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Because your holding the shit end of the stick. The reaver is not just a plot device, its the only weapon that can strike the Elder God and damage him, neither physical or spiritual means can harm or even see him normally. This is actual canon, not some fanon based on a no limit fallacy because a boy has nothing other than light arrows to harm a nigh physically featless "king of evil".

Your so sure about that are you? with dimentional teleport he can phase throughout the entire battlefield, every dimentional strike warps onto all nearby targets. This chain reaction of teleportation/warp as well as the soul reavers own powers that blast the target to piecies both body and soul would leave hyrule army a mess. Kain had to go back in time because that was during the Blood omen 1 era, I am not sure he even had the Soul reaver at that time or half of his useful spells.

As I said, the plot did not allow the Elder God use more than a part of his form in the ancient citadel otherwise he would harm himself. If your chucking out plot devices then this is taken away and the Elder God has his full power to deal with hyrule. This battle afaik is not set in Nosgoth, taking into account LoK canon storyline. Did you just tell me it isn't a plot device while describing it as a plot device.

All these events are canon to each own but since we don't know what effect these characters would have on each other they can beat hurt by each other.

Even with the soulreaver he lost to the Hylden Lord aka sarafan Lord and had an entire army by his side. I know he had the nexus stone to negate the reaver but the point is he needed an army to counter Sarafan Lord's army. Kain can't solo an army and neither can Ganondorf from this game.

Both sides can hurt each other so quit trying to make things up so the elder god is unbeatable.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I know plenty, I know that the sages sword impaled Ganondorf, I know that Ganondorf was defeated when Link had no Master sword as well. Youve wanked Ganondorf without end on this no limit fallacy. Link has no other powerful weapons used in canon against dorf, hence why Ganondorf is semi-featless besides your fanon. Impaling him and having him chained up didn't defeat him. he took out a sage after this and broke himself free. They bfr'd him through the twilight mirror to beat him while they all stood about him outnumbering him.


Kain's been defeated before as well so don't act like he's some unbeatable character when he isn't.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Did you just tell me it isn't a plot device while describing it as a plot device.

All these events are canon to each own but since we don't know what effect these characters would have on each other they can beat hurt by each other.

Even with the soulreaver he lost to the Hylden Lord aka sarafan Lord and had an entire army by his side. I know he had the nexus stone to negate the reaver but the point is he needed an army to counter Sarafan Lord's army. Kain can't solo an army and neither can Ganondorf from this game.

Both sides can hurt each other so quit trying to make things up so the elder god is unbeatable.


Its not as basic as a plot device. The Elder God by his own physilogy is untouchable by physical and spirit so although technically the Soul reaver is required by Kain to harm the Elder God its still canon that he cannot be harmed by physical or spirit.

Their canon yes, but in Ganons case claiming master sword is required is a no limit fallacy.

You should have stopped at the Nexus stone, thats what defeated him....and Kain is still nowhere near as powerful then as he is now.

You did not answer my argument, you made a straw man devised to claim that I am "inventing" statistics for the Elder God. If you dont know his size, strength and power then do not try and claim against it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Impaling him and having him chained up didn't defeat him. he took out a sage after this and broke himself free. They bfr'd him through the twilight mirror to beat him while they all stood about him outnumbering him.


Kain's been defeated before as well so don't act like he's some unbeatable character when he isn't.



He was technically already defeated, it still sliced right through him. He stood around for a few minutes while they did this. Based on your theory of using the characters exactly how the game has portrayed their actions in a specific cirumstance then this will happen here, and in 2 minutes Kain beheads him.


Defeated through PIS. Also stop trying to act like every Kain from every era is the same, he is vastly different across his thousands of years life.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I know plenty, I know that the sages sword impaled Ganondorf, I know that Ganondorf was defeated when Link had no Master sword as well. Youve wanked Ganondorf without end on this no limit fallacy. Link has no other powerful weapons used in canon against dorf, hence why Ganondorf is semi-featless besides your fanon.

1. Without possession of his Triforce of Power.

2. Someone else had it, or he was again without his Triforce of Power.

3. You cannot wank truth.

4. Statements via the game render this point useless. Ganon is not featless, and his durability is beyond the reach of anything in LoK.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
1. Without possession of his Triforce of Power.

2. Someone else had it, or he was again without his Triforce of Power.

3. You cannot wank truth.

4. Statements via the game render this point useless. Ganon is not featless, and his durability is beyond the reach of anything in LoK.

1. Evidence that this makes a difference in durability?

2. Nah, it was outside a ring of fire, Ganon beat a beast Ganon using the triforce of power without the MS.

3. You manage to wank truth into your own lies and fanon. Ganon with the full trueforce is defeated by old men and knights....

4. another fanon....most of LoK's mid-high tier would kill /defeat Dorf.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its not as basic as a plot device. The Elder God by his own physilogy is untouchable by physical and spirit so although technically the Soul reaver is required by Kain to harm the Elder God its still canon that he cannot be harmed by physical or spirit.

Their canon yes, but in Ganons case claiming master sword is required is a no limit fallacy.

You should have stopped at the Nexus stone, thats what defeated him....and Kain is still nowhere near as powerful then as he is now.

You did not answer my argument, you made a straw man devised to claim that I am "inventing" statistics for the Elder God. If you dont know his size, strength and power then do not try and claim against it.





He was technically already defeated, it still sliced right through him. He stood around for a few minutes while they did this. Based on your theory of using the characters exactly how the game has portrayed their actions in a specific cirumstance then this will happen here, and in 2 minutes Kain beheads him.


Defeated through PIS. Also stop trying to act like every Kain from every era is the same, he is vastly different across his thousands of years life. Yes, just like Ganondorf is practically immune to certain weapons other than what Link brings into battle here. In the game that is required but not on here just like Kain doesn't need light arrows or Link's sword.

That's the same thing as you claiming you need a combined reaver to see and defeat the elder god. Same thing.

The point is Kain didn't show up without an army because he needed one. That's obvious and he's never soloed an army and both times he met them in battle he was unsuccessful in these two examples.

I do know how big he is and I saw how big he was when Kain fought him. We use the version in combat from the game with his abilities he used in combat against Kain. I have no problem with him attacking from where he is burrowed in but you acting like 1,000 tendrils all strike at once is ridiculous and you making things up. The guy was only impressive in the game because only Raziel could see him and he was behind the scenes.

If he recovers in the same scene then he is not defeated. Raziel ripping out Kain's heart is defeating Kain.

I could see ganondrof rip out his heart and while Raziel alone was enough to match Kain ganondorf was attacked by hyrules' best mages all at once which is a lot harder to overcome than one opponent.


Pick an era and tell me when he defeated an entire army on a battlefield by himself. You can keep ignoring how Kain fights and reality all you want I'll call you on it each time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. Evidence that this makes a difference in durability?

Without even requiring thought, the event itself serves as sufficient evidence. Sword stab kills a normal man. First, Ganon gets stabbed, so he's going to die. His Triforce of Power activates, and the Sword is now nothing to him.

Originally posted by Burning thought
2. Nah, it was outside a ring of fire, Ganon beat a beast Ganon using the triforce of power without the MS.

Lol. Link uses Light Arrows or stuns him with the Megaton Hammer. No real argument for you here.

Originally posted by Burning thought
3. You manage to wank truth into your own lies and fanon. Ganon with the full trueforce is defeated by old men and knights....

You and Sin act like this matters. The Sages are powerful people in every Zelda game, and those Knights possessed the Master Sword, which is a stated failsafe for the Trueforce. Think about things before you say them.

Originally posted by Burning thought
4. another fanon....most of LoK's mid-high tier would kill /defeat Dorf.

Based on the zero feats you have shown over the many months you've spent insisting Kain stomps just about everything on this forum?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, just like Ganondorf is practically immune to certain weapons other than what Link brings into battle here. In the game that is required but not on here just like Kain doesn't need light arrows or Link's sword.

That's the same thing as you claiming you need a combined reaver to see and defeat the elder god. Same thing.

The point is Kain didn't show up without an army because he needed one. That's obvious and he's never soloed an army and both times he met them in battle he was unsuccessful in these two examples.

I do know how big he is and I saw how big he was when Kain fought him. We use the version in combat from the game with his abilities he used in combat against Kain. I have no problem with him attacking from where he is burrowed in but you acting like 1,000 tendrils all strike at once is ridiculous and you making things up. The guy was only impressive in the game because only Raziel could see him and he was behind the scenes.

If he recovers in the same scene then he is not defeated. Raziel ripping out Kain's heart is defeating Kain.

I could see ganondrof rip out his heart and while Raziel alone was enough to match Kain ganondorf was attacked by hyrules' best mages all at once which is a lot harder to overcome than one opponent.


Pick an era and tell me when he defeated an entire army on a battlefield by himself. You can keep ignoring how Kain fights and reality all you want I'll call you on it each time.

Kain has more powerful spells and weapons than Mastersword/light arrow combination which is why he does not need them.

Its not the same as my claim is not a failure of logic, a no limit fallacy. Link or Ganon do not possess the combined elements of the reaver and the EG is immune to what they do have.

He was unsuccessful solely because of an unforseen item that his opponent had that directly eliminated his weapons.

So you know he is a mass that covers the entire Nosgoth continent? not just the small piece Kain happened to face, tell me....why do you think the Elder God decided not to use his entire form to crush Kain?

PIS, Kain was not trying to kill Raziel, infact Kain did not try to do anything. Arguable, theres a big difference between defeat and kill.

With what? and how so? Kains not going to be standing around waiting for him to do it, or allow himself to get weakened enough. Hyrules best mages? show me this scene, not sure I have seen it.

As Kain states in his FMV of Soul reaver 2, "as long as a single one of us stands, we are a legion", Kains not the brash and arrogant warrior he is in Blood omen at the time. Kain in this fight has all his powers, and with those powers and his intelligence he any fool can work out how a combination of Kains powers can allow him to crush a lot of the hyrule resistance by himself.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Without even requiring thought, the event itself serves as sufficient evidence. Sword stab kills a normal man. First, Ganon gets stabbed, so he's going to die. His Triforce of Power activates, and the Sword is now nothing to him.



Lol. Link uses Light Arrows or stuns him with the Megaton Hammer. No real argument for you here.



You and Sin act like this matters. The Sages are powerful people in every Zelda game, and those Knights possessed the Master Sword, which is a stated failsafe for the Trueforce. Think about things before you say them.



Based on the zero feats you have shown over the many months you've spent insisting Kain stomps just about everything on this forum?

Nothing? its still sticking through him, theres nothing to suggest it makes him more resistant to damage.

But not the Master sword


Powerful? including the sages who stand helpless for minutes while Ganon breaks free in TP only to have one of their number killed in a punch? I lold....and theres been no evidence of the MS being present or that its an instant"lolz I wins!" in the presence of the trueforce.

Random statement

I don't see his durability changing I see the effects of the damage caused being rendered moot because of the triforce's effects.

Ganon can live while impaled but that does not help him if hes been sliced into shish kebab!

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain has more powerful spells and weapons than Mastersword/light arrow combination which is why he does not need them.

Its not the same as my claim is not a failure of logic, a no limit fallacy. Link or Ganon do not possess the combined elements of the reaver and the EG is immune to what they do have.

He was unsuccessful solely because of an unforseen item that his opponent had that directly eliminated his weapons.

So you know he is a mass that covers the entire Nosgoth continent? not just the small piece Kain happened to face, tell me....why do you think the Elder God decided not to use his entire form to crush Kain?

PIS, Kain was not trying to kill Raziel, infact Kain did not try to do anything. Arguable, theres a big difference between defeat and kill.

With what? and how so? Kains not going to be standing around waiting for him to do it, or allow himself to get weakened enough. Hyrules best mages? show me this scene, not sure I have seen it.

As Kain states in his FMV of Soul reaver 2, "as long as a single one of us stands, we are a legion", Kains not the brash and arrogant warrior he is in Blood omen at the time. Kain in this fight has all his powers, and with those powers and his intelligence he any fool can work out how a combination of Kains powers can allow him to crush a lot of the hyrule resistance by himself.



Nothing? its still sticking through him, theres nothing to suggest it makes him more resistant to damage.

But not the Master sword


Powerful? including the sages who stand helpless for minutes while Ganon breaks free in TP only to have one of their number killed in a punch? I lold....and theres been no evidence of the MS being present or that its an instant"lolz I wins!" in the presence of the trueforce.

Random statement You can't prove that by any means so quit acting like Kainverse is just mightier than zeldaverse. That's what fanboys do explain away everything like their verse is just more powerful in every regard without proving it.

How do you know the eg is immune to what they have? For you to prove that you need to show any zelda character attacking eg and failing? so since you can't prove it you have no choice but to concede.


The fact he was unsuccessful has nothing to do with the fact he showed up with an army he needed anyways. He needed the army because he can't just beat an army on his own. It's obvious and any honest person playing the games knows he can't solo the army.



I don't know why he didn't the same reason Kain doesn't mist in and out through virtually every battle he gets into.


I know he wasn't trying to defeat the possessed raziel but he still got beat despite the fact he can teleport and use his mist right so why didn't he? According to you no one can touch him so please explain.


Kain was ko'd when his heart was ripped out and for a longer period than Ganondorf who was subdued by various mages off screen.




Kain will be locked in battle with Ganondorf so he will be right up on him. He can also teleport and shoot phantom ganon riders after him while on his trusty horsey.

It's the scene where he was chained up and the mages tried to kill him. Dunno where it is online have to look around youtube.


You are taking his comment out of context. He can't solo an army and never has been able to so quit just making things up.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ganon can live while impaled but that does not help him if hes been sliced into shish kebab! Kain can live while having a heart transplant but can also be murdered while he lays out in the recovery room.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Nothing? its still sticking through him, theres nothing to suggest it makes him more resistant to damage.

He walks like it isn't there. He pulls it out when he feels like it. As opposed to it just flatout killing him like it would a normal person.

OoT's Ganon bossfight had him taking more damage from Link and himself than Kain could ever hope to dish out.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But not the Master sword

Yeah, so the Light Arrows don't kill him, but disintegrate anything that isn't him. And the Megaton hammer stuns him. It's like a bright flash, only instead of using light you have to hit him on the tail with a hammer commonly used for smashing huge rocks.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Powerful? including the sages who stand helpless for minutes while Ganon breaks free in TP only to have one of their number killed in a punch? I lold....and theres been no evidence of the MS being present or that its an instant"lolz I wins!" in the presence of the trueforce.

You treat being killed in a punch by Ganondorf like it means they are weak, as opposed to showing Ganon's incredible strength. But no actually, those would not be the same Sages.

And if you knew anything about Zelda then you would know that the Knights possessed the Master Sword. In ALttP, it was the Knights who were the only ones capable of using it. Continuing to exploit your lack of knowledge, there are statements in ALttP or other games that say the Master Sword is used for this.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Random statement

Pretty relevant actually. I can name everything you've ever showed a video for.

TK, Mist form, Teleportation, blood techniques, pushing blocks.

TK vids have never shown anything heavier than a human. Mist form cannot be proven to remain under Kain's control when separated beyond an inch or two. Teleportation is not as fast as you want it to be. Blood techniques do not work on things with durability, and Kain's blocks have only added up to 40 tons.

None of this is useful against Ganondorf.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Ironic considering this is a LOK vs TP thread. Two games that contain some of the ugliest characters I've ever seen (Kain and midna).

TP has many pretty characters including Ilia, Prince Ralis, Queen Rutela, Ashei, Agitha, Beth, and Iza.

Majora's Mask has the ugly characters: Tingle, Goron elder, Odolwa, etc.

Also Midna is:

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Cute.

Only when I'm not wearing my glasses. Of course when I'm not I could mistake a lion for Jason Alexander.

I get that bt hasn't played twilight but have any of the zelda fans played defiance?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ganon can live while impaled but that does not help him if hes been sliced into shish kebab!

Yes it does. Do you not remember giant (not) flaming head form? Ganondorf's body can be completely destroyed and he'll reform within 60 seconds.

Also, I find it ridiculous that you're claiming that the Elder God is invulnerable to everything because its canon, yet you won't let Ganondorf have the same thing despite his invulnerability also being canon. There are statements within the game that say Ganondorf can't be defeated without the Master Sword, just like the Elder God. It's the same thing, but you just hate Zelda.

Please provide feats if you want to claim otherwise. That's what I always do.

Edit: quanchi, BT hasn't played any Zelda game. Ever. He just hates everything about them.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yes it does. Do you not remember giant (not) flaming head form? Ganondorf's body can be completely destroyed and he'll reform within 60 seconds.

Also, I find it ridiculous that you're claiming that the Elder God is invulnerable to everything because its canon, yet you won't let Ganondorf have the same thing despite his invulnerability also being canon. There are statements within the game that say Ganondorf can't be defeated without the Master Sword, just like the Elder God. It's the same thing, but you just hate Zelda.

Please provide feats if you want to claim otherwise. That's what I always do. I don't even think bt knows he's using a double standard here. I think in his own mind he's being completely fair about this.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I get that bt hasn't played twilight but have any of the zelda fans played defiance? I own it.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
I own it. I figured some of the posters had but I also figured some haven't. I honestly see Kain's side prevailing here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't even think bt knows he's using a double standard here. I think in his own mind he's being completely fair about this.

This is not a new theory. I think it's even been proven.

Speaking as a Zelda worshipper and guru since the age of 5 (at 8 I could beat the Blind's dungeon in LttP with my eyes closed, truf) I promise you that Link/Ganondorf mop this up fairly easy.

Even if Link and Ganondorf weren't in this fight, the Goddesses could intervene (like when they flooded Hyrule).

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
This is not a new theory. I think it's even been proven. The funny thing is I have always thought kain's side wins but with how ridiculous he was I found myself arguing against him more than anything else. Neither side stomps no matter how it plays it unless you're extremely biased towards one side.

I still think Gorons are too hard to take down easily, and Twilight offers some major advantages.

Actually no, Ganon would literally stomp. He even does it in SSBB. :O

But literally, Kain can't hurt Ganondorf. And I doubt the Elder Leech can as well.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Actually no, Ganon would literally stomp. He even does it in SSBB. :O

But literally, Kain can't hurt Ganondorf. And I doubt the Elder Leech can as well. Ok, now you're about as bad as he is. Ganondorf while impressive isn't laughing off soulreaver strikes if Link can pierce his chest. Link didn't seem to have any real strength comparable to Kain and to compete with bigger enemies he needed those terrible iron boots which killed his mobility.

Kain's faster and smarter than Ganondorf which will get Ganondorf killed.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I still think Gorons are too hard to take down easily, and Twilight offers some major advantages. What about all those giant hylden demons towards the end of the game. I think they more than take it to the Gorons here.

No, he really is laughing off soul reaver strikes. Are you not aware of how incredibly strong Link is? And how durable it makes Ganondorf to continue fighting after a beating, drop his own castle on himself, and then get out of that and keep fighting?

The speed difference is negligible. Ganondorf can teleport just as fast and can also fly.

I don't think Kain is smarter than Ganondorf either.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ok, now you're about as bad as he is. Ganondorf while impressive isn't laughing off soulreaver strikes if Link can pierce his chest. Link didn't seem to have any real strength comparable to Kain and to compete with bigger enemies he needed those terrible iron boots which killed his mobility.

Kain's faster and smarter than Ganondorf which will get Ganondorf killed.

Lol @ Kain being smarter than G-dorf. You reeeeeaaaaally need to play OoT. Everything we are saying will make sense once you do.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
No, he really is laughing off soul reaver strikes. Are you not aware of how incredibly strong Link is? And how durable it makes Ganondorf to continue fighting after a beating, drop his own castle on himself, and then get out of that and keep fighting?

The speed difference is negligible. Ganondorf can teleport just as fast and can also fly.

I don't think Kain is smarter than Ganondorf either. Apparently I am since he did nothing impressive at all the entire game I can think of to make think otherwise.

Ganondorf while awesome in his offscreen battle still got beat by sword strikes from Link who is slower and nowhere near as strong as Kain.

Neither side will teleport all that much and each can counter each other with that.

Kain is much smarter than the failure that is ganondorf. I love the guy but he's about as bad as skeletor sure he opposes he man and threatens all of eternia but he loses every single time to the same kinda hero.

Kain has various sides wanting and solely seeking his death and he outmaneuvers them all. Kain prevails while each hero always defeats him and yet he doesn't get any better. That's if there is some measure of continuity for these games but since i Havne't beaten enough I am still undecided until I see actual creator proof.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ok, now you're about as bad as he is. Ganondorf while impressive isn't laughing off soulreaver strikes if Link can pierce his chest. Link didn't seem to have any real strength comparable to Kain and to compete with bigger enemies he needed those terrible iron boots which killed his mobility.

Kain's faster and smarter than Ganondorf which will get Ganondorf killed.

We've all gone over this multiple times. Ganondorf is extremely tough, and his durability is above what strength Kain had shown (Link has shown extreme strength, too.) Soul Reaver I'm less sure about, but I doubt Kain can defeat Ganondorf.

Now then, Kain might be faster, but I wouldn't say smarter. Ganondorf can teleport and fly, and has better feats than what Kain has shown.



I dunno. Do they compare to getting launched out a volcano?

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Lol @ Kain being smarter than G-dorf. You reeeeeaaaaally need to play OoT. Everything we are saying will make sense once you do. I will play it but Kain successfully outplays every hand on the board. He's always a step above them all and carrying out his mission. I think the guy ruled a decaying nosgoth for over 1,000 years. I am unsure about how many years since it's been so long an dam going strictly off of my memory.


Also this is twilight Ganondorf who wasn't that intelligent at all, was defeated because he was too arrogant by the mages and was completely clueless about who Link was and how much of a threat he was.

I promise you will take all of that back when you play OoT. You are going to say "Holy crap, Ganon just pulled a Light Yagami on me!"

Originally posted by The Scenario
We've all gone over this multiple times. Ganondorf is extremely tough, and his durability is above what strength Kain had shown (Link has shown extreme strength, too.) Soul Reaver I'm less sure about, but I doubt Kain can defeat Ganondorf.

Now then, Kain might be faster, but I wouldn't say smarter. Ganondorf can teleport and fly, and has better feats than what Kain has shown.



I dunno. Do they compare to getting launched out a volcano? How is it above what strength Kain has shown? What did Link actually do in the game to prove he's incredibly strong?

What feats of Ganondorf's are actually better than Kain's.

I think so. I don't think a goron's punches are going to get it done.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
I promise you will take all of that back when you play OoT. You are going to say "Holy crap, Ganon just pulled a Light Yagami on me!" Maybe, but Kain always had me like wow this guy is always ahead of the game. He was strategically exactly where he had to be the entire time past blood omen 2.


When Kain had his heart ripped out and still was alive I was like --- yeah!

Originally posted by quanchi112
Apparently I am since he did nothing impressive at all the entire game I can think of to make think otherwise.


Tanking that sword, the castle, Madna, etc. are all better than Kain's durability feats.



Again, Link is strong enough to toss multi-ton Gorons.



Ganondorf can still fly and its in his character to attack from a distance.



That doesn't mean anything. Weren't you saying earlier it was just plot devices that allowed Link to win?



So does Ganondorf. He always manipulates things from the shadows and tricks his enemies into helping him. Ganondorf is highly intelligent.

Raziel could throw him around with TK blasts that were fairly weak, however. Ganondorf's TK has passively levitated castles in OoT.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
I promise you will take all of that back when you play OoT. You are going to say "Holy crap, Ganon just pulled a Light Yagami on me!"

Now maybe this is just may be my own ignorance shining through but what exactly did Ganon do besides the obvious? I know what he did to gain power but did he do anything beyond that?

Well Quanchi, you did only play TP, the worst one in the series. I'll just link you to the respect thread, the stuff should be in the first few pages.

Look for math. A lot of math. No, you don't have to actually do any of it.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=499505&pagenumber=1

There's a little bit of it on the front page.

As for Ganon supposedly being stupid, no. He pretty much makes Link do all his dirty work in every game that matters (not TP). Him losing over and over again is nothing more than an inability to defeat the awesome Link and the powerful Master Sword.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Tanking that sword, the castle, Madna, etc. are all better than Kain's durability feats.



Again, Link is strong enough to toss multi-ton Gorons.



Ganondorf can still fly and its in his character to attack from a distance.



That doesn't mean anything. Weren't you saying earlier it was just plot devices that allowed Link to win?



So does Ganondorf. He always manipulates things from the shadows and tricks his enemies into helping him. Ganondorf is highly intelligent. Ganondorf's form was that giant head and when he changed he was able to be defeated in sword combat.

Having your heart ripped out is far more impressive than surviving just because the triforce of power backed you up. It failed him the next time he needed it to work anyways.

Link has his plot devices to counter Ganondorf's but to underestimate Link in the manner he did is unforgivable in terms of intelligence.

Yes, he is but in this game he was defeated both times due to underestimating his opponents, the mages and Link.

Don't spoil it for quanchi, but remember how he used you like a pawn to open the Door of Time to the Sacred Realm for him, for instance?

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Don't spoil it for quanchi, but remember how he used you like a pawn to open the Door of Time to the Sacred Realm for him, for instance?

I know that. But is that it? Haven't played the game for lack of owning it.

lol only reason I'm asking is cause you said he pulled a Light Yagami move, even though that is actually more similar to what Sephiroth did in FF 7.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Link has his plot devices to counter Ganondorf's but to underestimate Link in the manner he did is unforgivable in terms of intelligence.

No! It was not this kid who's power he underestimated, it was the power of the Triforce of Courage!

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Well Quanchi, you did only play TP, the worst one in the series. I'll just link you to the respect thread, the stuff should be in the first few pages.

Look for math. A lot of math. No, you don't have to actually do any of it.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=499505&pagenumber=1

There's a little bit of it on the front page.

As for Ganon supposedly being stupid, no. He pretty much makes Link do all his dirty work in every game that matters (not TP). Him losing over and over again is nothing more than an inability to defeat the awesome Link and the powerful Master Sword. I won't look and let's keep the discussion to the tp. Maybe he is more intelligent outside this game and I hope so because this Ganondorf while awesome still underestimated the crap out of Link and Midna.

I gauge success and Kain's success speaks for itself while Ganondrof's failures in this game due to being too arrogant speaks for itself.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
I know that. But is that it? Haven't played the game for lack of owning it.

lol only reason I'm asking is cause you said he pulled a Light Yagami move, even though that is actually more similar to what Sephiroth did in FF 7.

I was 9... He tricked me, OKAY!

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
No! It was not this kid who's power he underestimated, it was the power of the Triforce of Courage!

Fact. Direct quote.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
No! It was not this kid who's power he underestimated, it was the power of the Triforce of Courage! Either way he still made a major boo boo. He also made the same mistake against the mages and it was luck the triforce backed him up anyways according to the text.

Actually he wasn't defeated by the mages. And the only reason he was ever captured was because in TP he is blind.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
I was 9... He tricked me, OKAY!

There there, it's alright. Look on the bright side! Link beat him and then got cheated out of the victory sex.

He also understimated the power of the Master Sword. "An impressive-looking blade, but nothing more." - Ganondorf

Originally posted by LLLLLink
He also understimated the power of the Master Sword. "An impressive-looking blade, but nothing more." - Ganondorf That actually makes me think this is a brand new zelda since how could he be that ignorant to downplay the blade, right?

Anyways, it kind of proves my point if he's too ignorant to realize how badass the master sword is he's not as intelligent in this one as you think.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That actually makes me think this is a brand new zelda since how could he be that ignorant to downplay the blade, right?

Anyways, it kind of proves my point if he's too ignorant to realize how badass the master sword is he's not as intelligent in this one as you think.

This is another chink in the timeline debate, unfortunately. The only way he wouldn't know about the Master Sword is if it was his first encounter.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
This is another chink in the timeline debate, unfortunately. The only way he wouldn't know about the Master Sword is if it was his first encounter. This is another reason why I wasn't impressed at all with this ganondorf's intelligence.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This is another reason why I wasn't impressed at all with this ganondorf's intelligence.

Play OoT. I beg you. Ganodorf will redeem himself.
Also, Young Link has the biggest nuts ever. Kid has guts.

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Play OoT. I beg you. Ganodorf will redeem himself.
Also, Young Link has the biggest nuts ever. Kid has guts. I am excited about this game. Today I went running around to set up online play and got a monster 50 foot cord to hook up the internet to the wii only to find out you need an adapter which I almost didn't find until I hit up the last local gamestop in the area.

The only thing that will suck is the graphics but I asked this different guy at gamestop again, how are zelda's set up? He said alternate realities and I asked which was the best zelda and he said without a doubt ocarina of time.