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CIS, CIP, and PIS are off.

Go by actual showings and feats please.

Galactus.

UN can nullify anything short of IG

Galactus isn't nullifying Lucifer. Not any more than he'd nullify Tribunal.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Galactus.

UN can nullify anything short of IG

The IG really isn't that high on the cosmic scale compared who we're talking about.

Lucifer is too powerful and too intelligent to let himself be nullified (if such a thing were even possible, considering his power).

I said go by actual showings. Lucifer hasn't done all that much really.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
I said go by actual showings. Lucifer hasn't done all that much really.

Creating a multiverse is worse than nullifying Abraxas?

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Creating a multiverse is worse than nullifying Abraxas?

Or tanking the energies that provided the raw material for said multiverse?

Debating on whether or not LT or other multiverse class entity can beat Lucifer, I could see, but he seems to get underrated a lot... I mean, putting the Infinity Gauntlet above him now? Come on!

Of course it is.
Richards with the nullifier destroyed AND recreated an INFINITE multi-verse.

Lucifer also needed Michael' power to recreate that universe.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Of course it is.
Richards with the nullifier destroyed AND recreated an INFINITE multi-verse.

Lucifer also needed Michael' power to recreate that universe.

Destroying and recreating the Marvel multiverse isn't as impressive considering the multiverse was basically reset to the way it was before. When Lucifer created his multiverse, he did so from the ground up. He had to build all the basics from scratch: the four fundamental forces, the way time flows (which he changed), the entire physics of the multiverse stem directly from his decisions. The Nullifier has never shown the ability to create universes independent from this one.

If you buy into that bs, which I personally don't.

The LT would've, and should've stepped in if Reed actually wiped out the ENTIRE Marvel Multiverse, which calls the feat suspect.

And regardless, the incomplete IG defeated the UN. Beings above the IG, like Lucifer and Living Tribunal, should certainly be as capable.

The LT didn't step in with Jaspers or HoM Scarlet Witch or Fury or IG(at first)...so? He goes by the 'survival of the fittest' rule.
And there is on-panel proof that the UN destroyed and recreated the marvel multi-verse.

Observe:

Originally posted by galactusischere
This is more a UN feat but, here Reed states that should Abraxas get the UN, he would be able to destroy the Multi-Verse!
http://img21.imageshack.us/i/fantasticfourv34618.jpg/

"But this time, this day can only end one way"
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/307/fantasticfourv34916.jpg

And the multi-verse gets ultimately nullified and Abraxas gets chained to the heart of Eternity once more:
http://img525.imageshack.us/i/fantasticfourv34917.jpg/

The Multi-verse gets restarted....and so ends Abraxas:
http://img9.imageshack.us/i/fantasticfourv34918.jpg/

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Destroying and recreating the Marvel multiverse isn't as impressive considering the multiverse was basically reset to the way it was before. When Lucifer created his multiverse, he did so from the ground up. He had to build all the basics from scratch: the four fundamental forces, the way time flows (which he changed), the entire physics of the multiverse stem directly from his decisions. The Nullifier has never shown the ability to create universes independent from this one.

He still used up a good portion of Michael's power to achieve that feat.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
He still used up a good portion of Michael's power to achieve that feat.

It's his only weakness: he cannot create something from nothing. Michael exists to balance that out. The Nullifier can't create something from nothing either, and Lucifer has the entire universe (and more) to use against Galactus.

I would say that Lucifer would be able to defeat Galactus even with the Ultimate Nullifier according to the statements of his power and intelligence. But based upon the actual feats displayed, i'm going with Galactus.

Lucy would just laugh and *****-slap Big G for nullifying his creation.

Galactus, easily.

Ultimate Nullifier > Spears > Lucifer

Amirite Quanchi?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Ultimate Nullifier > Spears > Lucifer

Amirite Quanchi? Is this you attempting humor? Fail. Un erases him quite easily.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
The LT didn't step in with Jaspers or HoM Scarlet Witch or Fury or IG(at first)...so? He goes by the 'survival of the fittest' rule.
And there is on-panel proof that the UN destroyed and recreated the marvel multi-verse.

Observe:

Nowhere in those scans does it say the combined multiverse was nullified/restored.

Also, here's what it says on Marvels official wiki:

http://marvel.com/universe/Abraxas



THE universe. One.

And regardless, there's still an incomplete Infinity Gauntlet deflecting the Nullifier.

Nullifier < incomplete IF < Living Tribunal = Lucifer Morningstar.

Give or take.

Originally posted by cdtm
Nowhere in those scans does it say the combined multiverse was nullified/restored.

Also, here's what it says on Marvels official wiki:

http://marvel.com/universe/Abraxas



THE universe. One.

And regardless, there's still an incomplete Infinity Gauntlet deflecting the Nullifier.

Nullifier < incomplete IF < Living Tribunal = Lucifer Morningstar.

Give or take. doesnt the IF only need ONE gem (the power gem) to resist the UN?

Originally posted by cdtm
Nowhere in those scans does it say the combined multiverse was nullified/restored.

Also, here's what it says on Marvels official wiki:

http://marvel.com/universe/Abraxas



THE universe. One.

And regardless, there's still an incomplete Infinity Gauntlet deflecting the Nullifier.

Nullifier < incomplete IF < Living Tribunal = Lucifer Morningstar.

Give or take.

Since when is Lucifer equal to LT? Based on what?

Also, the Marvel site isn't all that accurate. Reed states that the UN can nullify entire multi-verses. Reed in actual comic > marvel's site.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Since when is Lucifer equal to LT? Based on what?

Also, the Marvel site isn't all that accurate. Reed states that the UN can nullify entire multi-verses. Reed in actual comic > marvel's site.

Since Lucifer has bigger feats than LT?

Seriously, what has LT done that tops Lucifer's feats?

LT is second in line, underneath TOOA. Lucifer is second in line, underneath The Presence (Alongside his brother, Michael.) Plus, there's the feats Lucifer performed creating Presences universe, along with his feats when creating his own unique multiverse (As in, OUTSIDE of creation, vs multiverse/universe creation usually happening WITHIN the higher DC or Marvel omniverse), which include creating his own concepts like "time".. He's also created souls, just to torture souless demons..

I see this is turning into a LT vs Lucifer thread again..

Originally posted by kgkg
I see this is turning into a LT vs Lucifer thread again..

It's not really Lucifers rank next to LT I'm concerned about.. It's more that I'm wondering where exactly some people are placing him.

Sometimes, I can't help but wonder if some would argue Eternity or the Infinity Gauntlet is above even The Presence, the way his sons are underrated...

There is no way lucy is at LT level.Aren't lucy and mike together LT?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
There is no way lucy is at LT level.Aren't lucy and mike together LT?

Lucifer + Michael = The Presence

Originally posted by cdtm
It's not really Lucifers rank next to LT I'm concerned about.. It's more that I'm wondering where exactly some people are placing him.

Sometimes, I can't help but wonder if some would argue Eternity or the Infinity Gauntlet is above even The Presence, the way his sons are underrated...

Thanos with IG > Eternity
Eternty = multi-verse
LT >>> IG

Lucifer's best feat multiversal. LT has the better feats.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Thanos with IG > Eternity
Eternty = multi-verse
LT >>> IG

Lucifer's best feat multiversal. LT has the better feats.

And when did the IG prove it could defeat multi-Eternity.

Each universe has their own lesser Eternities. They do not equal Eternity.. If they did, the events of Captain Marvel, when Oblivion became the new Eternity of a single universe, would make no sense..

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1582628/etisuni2copysh4.jpg.html

it's all in the book. Credit for the scan goes to Mr M

Lucifer outsmarts the Nullification effect, in the process conning it into buying a bunch of Kenny Chesney albums.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1582628/etisuni2copysh4.jpg.html

it's all in the book. Credit for the scan goes to Mr M

So, what about when alternate Eternities were nullified, permanently? It's happened in What If's, including one where Dr. Strange decides to stay within his nullified universe, while Surfer left for other places..

If beating universal Eternity was = beating multi-Eternity, there'd be no Marvel Multiverse. Clearly that isn't the case, as alt versions of Eternity have been killed and the multi-verse is still there.

They were alternate Eternities, not Eternity prime.
Galactus made it clear that 616 abstracts > alt reality abstracts

Originally posted by cdtm
And when did the IG prove it could defeat multi-Eternity.

Each universe has their own lesser Eternities. They do not equal Eternity.. If they did, the events of Captain Marvel, when Oblivion became the new Eternity of a single universe, would make no sense..

Don't you mean Entropy?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
There is no way lucy is at LT level.Aren't lucy and mike together LT? No.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Don't you mean Entropy?

Yes, Entropy. ^_^;

The thing is, TheTyrant keeps equating defeating 616 Eternity with wiping out the entire Marvel omniverse. This doesn't make much sense, considering all universes have their own Eternity.

Clearly, beating or nullifying 616 Eternity, means you nullified the 616 Eternity. Otherwise, why would all the "lesser" Eternity's exist?

The Marvel multiverse/omniverse would continue to exist without the 616-verse. (Unless there's some kind of "nexus point" thing similar to mainstream DC Earth unraveling everything. But even destroying an entire multiverse via nexus destruction isn't nearly the same thing as going out and defeating all of the entities in each universe of the entire multiverse..)

Originally posted by cdtm
Yes, Entropy. ^_^;

The thing is, TheTyrant keeps equating defeating 616 Eternity with wiping out the entire Marvel omniverse. This doesn't make much sense, considering all universes have their own Eternity.

Clearly, beating or nullifying 616 Eternity, means you nullified the 616 Eternity. Otherwise, why would all the "lesser" Eternity's exist?

The Marvel multiverse/omniverse would continue to exist without the 616-verse.

I don't quite get it either. DC New Earth is explained to be the metaphysical cornerstone of the Multiverse, so that explains the latter events of SCW and Final Crisis. I never read anything stating the 616-Universe to be the essential piece of the Marvel Multiverse.

It's all in the Abraxas saga JS.

Abraxas has a respect thread, I think the scans were posted there.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Is this you attempting humor? Fail. Un erases him quite easily.

Humor? That was dependent on your answer. It was mostly a roundabout way of me asking whether or not you clung to the ridiculous argument that Lucifer would lose to a being of a certain level (Thanos for example) because he was hurt by a spear.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
It's all in the Abraxas saga JS.

Abraxas has a respect thread, I think the scans were posted there.

I went through the thread, and it says nothing of the sort in the scans themselves. Even the 2005 bio only states that the 616 universe itself was reset.

I'll get back to you on that tomorrow.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Humor? That was dependent on your answer. It was mostly a roundabout way of me asking whether or not you clung to the ridiculous argument that Lucifer would lose to a being of a certain level (Thanos for example) because he was hurt by a spear. If you read the series you'd realize people exaggerated the crap out of all these characters. Thanos doesn't need a spear.

Why on earth do people still consider Lucifer being at ground zero as some kind of durability feat I'll never understand. It was his job.. it was a power give to him to accomplish a task by the presence. Any creation story is about CREATION not tanking some symbolic explosion used to describe how things expand outward to create all. Durability feat.. nah.

As stated 616 Eternity greater than all others and the 616 is the corner stone for all of the Marvel Multiverse. The same Eternity is the Abraxas saga is the same in the IG saga i.e. multi-eternity.

All this being said... the UN won't nullify Lucifer.... I think Lucifer is above such nullification.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why on earth do people still consider Lucifer being at ground zero as some kind of durability feat I'll never understand. It was his job.. it was a power give to him to accomplish a task by the presence. Any creation story is about CREATION not tanking some symbolic explosion used to describe how things expand outward to create all. Durability feat.. nah.

As stated 616 Eternity greater than all others and the 616 is the corner stone for all of the Marvel Multiverse. The same Eternity is the Abraxas saga is the same in the IG saga i.e. multi-eternity.

All this being said... the UN won't nullify Lucifer.... I think Lucifer is above such nullification.

Lucifer tanked Michael's magic saw performance, and it was the first (and only) time he did so. Neither he nor Michael created the original DC Multiverse, that was the work of the Presence.

Originally posted by quanchi112
If you read the series you'd realize people exaggerated the crap out of all these characters. Thanos doesn't need a spear.

So Thanos beats Lucifer? Gotcha ya.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So Thanos beats Lucifer? Gotcha ya.

He actually believes so, yes.

anyway, no way does lucy get nullified. and i wonder who showed mr m that scan.....?

and that was WAY before the ridiculous notion of a multi-eternity.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So Thanos beats Lucifer? Gotcha ya. Without a doubt.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Without a doubt.

O_o

Originally posted by cdtm
O_o

I read his entire series and have no other reason to believe otherwise.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I read his entire series and have no other reason to believe otherwise.

So, are we talking about overpowering him, or outsmarting him?

The stuff Lucifer did without his powers didn't impress, at all? The schemes against heaven, the way he tricked those Japanese gods without any powers...?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I read his entire series and have no other reason to believe otherwise.

Yeah, I'll take your word for it...

Originally posted by cdtm
So, are we talking about overpowering him, or outsmarting him?

The stuff Lucifer did without his powers didn't impress, at all? The schemes against heaven, the way he tricked those Japanese gods without any powers...?

Does it really matter what he thinks? Thanos can't even stand with Odin, and Odin's small-fry compared to Lucifer.

Originally posted by cdtm
So, are we talking about overpowering him, or outsmarting him?

The stuff Lucifer did without his powers didn't impress, at all? The schemes against heaven, the way he tricked those Japanese gods without any powers...? I think his opponents were stupid most of the time. He did outmaneuver them but I don't see Thanos letting him off the hook. he was also aided various times and outplayed.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Yeah, I'll take your word for it...



Does it really matter what he thinks? Thanos can't even stand with Odin, and Odin's small-fry compared to Lucifer. What did he do to suggest I am incorrect here. Odin would dominate him as well.

Quan not trying to be off topic but what do you think the strongest character thanos can beat without prep or amps is?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I think his opponents were stupid most of the time. He did outmaneuver them but I don't see Thanos letting him off the hook. he was also aided various times and outplayed.

What did he do to suggest I am incorrect here. Odin would dominate him as well.

If you read the series, you would know how much more powerful he is than Odin. Odin is a skyfather, and Lucifer is above the Endless in power.

He was only outsmarted by Izanami, temporarily.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Quan not trying to be off topic but what do you think the strongest character thanos can beat without prep or amps is? That's just too off topic.Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
If you read the series, you would know how much more powerful he is than Odin. Odin is a skyfather, and Lucifer is above the Endless in power.

He was only outsmarted by Izanami, temporarily. I did read the series and I saw his brother dominate him and then get taken out because his back was turned. Their durability wasn't the greatest.

What have the endless done combat wise to make you so in awe of them?


He was outplayed by Fenris and Amenadiel but he had help.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
If you read the series, you would know how much more powerful he is than Odin. Odin is a skyfather, and Lucifer is above the Endless in power.

He was only outsmarted by Izanami, temporarily.

And in terms of prep, Thanos isn't entirely without his help or lucky breaks either.. If not for Death, he wouldn't have found out about the Infinity Well, or assembled the Infinity Gauntlet.

Yeah, Lucifer had his lucky breaks and help, but he also made a lot of his own luck. The aborted fetus guardian and Japanese monster for starters.

He was resourceful, managing to use and abuse anyone and anything to get what he wanted. Even used Elaine Belloc as a "Get out of becoming The Presence" card, and took some time to groom her beforehand, so it wasn't a whim..

Originally posted by cdtm
And in terms of prep, Thanos isn't entirely without his help or lucky breaks either.. If not for Death, he wouldn't have found out about the Infinity Well, or assembled the Infinity Gauntlet.

Yeah, Lucifer had his lucky breaks and help, but he also made a lot of his own luck. The aborted fetus guardian and Japanese monster for starters.

He was resourceful, managing to use and abuse anyone and anything to get what he wanted. Even used Elaine Belloc as a "Get out of becoming The Presence" card, and took some time to groom her beforehand, so it wasn't a whim.. True, but when his goal was made nothing stood in his way whereas Lucy has characters stand in his way whereas Thanos just goes through them.

I feel his lack of competition really hurts him against Thanos because his universe was nowhere near as nasty or competitive as marvel's.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That's just too off topic. I did read the series and I saw his brother dominate him and then get taken out because his back was turned. Their durability wasn't the greatest.

What have the endless done combat wise to make you so in awe of them?

Uh, he killed Michael at the World Tree. Are you talking about when he was possessed by Fenris' blood, because he wasn't "dominated" then either.

Taken out by who? Noema? He pulled the knife out of his back and kept fighting.

Is Eternity greater than Odin? Yes. Does he have as many feats? No.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He was outplayed by Fenris and Amenadiel but he had help.

You're not even showing proof that you finished the story, let alone a page.

Lucifer conserved his power until he was in the ideal position to clinch victory. He admits as much immediately afterwards. By doing so he played Fenris and Noema simultaneously, since the latter tried to kill him during and after the fight. She broke her side of the bargain and would have been toast if he hasn't used her to contact the Presence outside of reality.

Every time Amenadiel had a full house, Lucifer pulled a four of a kind.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Uh, he killed Michael at the World Tree. Are you talking about when he was possessed by Fenris' blood, because he wasn't "dominated" then either.

Taken out by who? Noema? He pulled the knife out of his back and kept fighting.

Is Eternity greater than Odin? Yes. Does he have as many feats? No.



You're not even showing proof that you finished the story, let alone a page.

Lucifer conserved his power until he was in the ideal position to clinch victory. He admits as much immediately afterwards. By doing so he played Fenris and Noema simultaneously, since the latter tried to kill him during and after the fight. She broke her side of the bargain and would have been toast if he hasn't used her to contact the Presence outside of reality.

Every time Amenadiel had a full house, Lucifer pulled a four of a kind. He killed Michael because he was weakened and held back against his brother due to fenris' actions.


I can't recall his name off hand and am too lazy to look it up. It was the older looking one who stabbed him right in the back and took him prisoner for all those years.

Eternity is far greater than Odin and also went toe to toe with the ig. Big diff.

Says the guy who seems to be leaving out the context behind Lucifer's win over his brother whose wings were badly damaged and stopped attacking. Those are major details. Wow, did you read the series?

Lucy was aided and later prevailed against fenris. I am talking out prior to when he fled battle to buy himself time. Fenris had him dead to rights and he fled.

Lucy had help against Amenadiel. That's the only reason he prevailed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He killed Michael because he was weakened and held back against his brother due to fenris' actions.


I can't recall his name off hand and am too lazy to look it up. It was the older looking one who stabbed him right in the back and took him prisoner for all those years.

Eternity is far greater than Odin and also went toe to toe with the ig. Big diff.

Says the guy who seems to be leaving out the context behind Lucifer's win over his brother whose wings were badly damaged and stopped attacking. Those are major details. Wow, did you read the series?

Lucy was aided and later prevailed against fenris. I am talking out prior to when he fled battle to buy himself time. Fenris had him dead to rights and he fled.

Lucy had help against Amenadiel. That's the only reason he prevailed.

They were all weakened by the journey. Fenris was in control for the majority of the fight. It says nothing about Lucifer's intelligence or use of his powers. Michael tried to reason with him, which leads to the conclusion that he is more powerful? No connection there.

That was Michael who was stabbed in the back by Sandalphon. Michael has a completely different power-set, and was kept in a state of near-death for the experiments. He was too weak to use his powers, and if he had died he would have destroyed all of creation. Lose-lose situation.

Eternity has less feats than Odin, and yet we rate Eternity over Odin. LT is acknowledge to be No. 2 to TOAA, and a Celestial was able to accomplish what he couldn't (stopping Protege). By their nature abstracts are more powerful than gods in the DC and Marvel universes.

Both their wings were heavily damaged.

A Lucifer that wasn't even at half-power. Noema stated that he was losing power ever since the Presence left creation. Context, Quanchi, context.

Aided in ways that contributed almost nothing to their personal fight. Rudd delayed Fenris and got smoked. Mazikeen disturbed his smoke form as long as possible. None of that weakened Fenris to a relevant extent.

The only true "help" happened when Duma carried him to the Pain Fields. Both Amenadiel and Lucifer were using people as pawns for their plans. Lucifer just had better on-the-fly thinking. By the same reasoning, the only way Amenadiel could have won was through the help of other people (Sisyphus, Rudd, etc.). He wasn't relying on his own power to win the fight.

Anyway, we're talking about Galactus. Make arguments for Galactus.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
They were all weakened by the journey. Fenris was in control for the majority of the fight. It says nothing about Lucifer's intelligence or use of his powers. Michael tried to reason with him, which leads to the conclusion that he is more powerful? No connection there.

That was Michael who was stabbed in the back by Sandalphon. Michael has a completely different power-set, and was kept in a state of near-death for the experiments. He was too weak to use his powers, and if he had died he would have destroyed all of creation. Lose-lose situation.

Eternity has less feats than Odin, and yet we rate Eternity over Odin. LT is acknowledge to be No. 2 to TOAA, and a Celestial was able to accomplish what he couldn't (stopping Protege). By their nature abstracts are more powerful than gods in the DC and Marvel universes.

Both their wings were heavily damaged.

A Lucifer that wasn't even at half-power. Noema stated that he was losing power ever since the Presence left creation. Context, Quanchi, context.

Aided in ways that contributed almost nothing to their personal fight. Rudd delayed Fenris and got smoked. Mazikeen disturbed his smoke form as long as possible. None of that weakened Fenris to a relevant extent.

The only true "help" happened when Duma carried him to the Pain Fields. Both Amenadiel and Lucifer were using people as pawns for their plans. Lucifer just had better on-the-fly thinking. By the same reasoning, the only way Amenadiel could have won was through the help of other people (Sisyphus, Rudd, etc.). He wasn't relying on his own power to win the fight.

Anyway, we're talking about Galactus. Make arguments for Galactus. Michael's wings were broken which was even cited which meant beating him isn't as impressive as if he were fully powered and oh yeah he tried talking to him so it's not impressive.

Yes, he was defeated by being stabbed in the back which meant sure he's powerful not unbeatable.

Eternity is more powerful and more formidable than Odin and unlike Michael he can't be defeated by someone random guy in the back with a spear.

Yes, he was losing power but was at full power when Michael routed him when all he had to do was stab him with a spear. Think, please.

Amenadiel was betrayed by Paul what's his name who really was impressive in terms of working everyone over. That's why he lost.

Yeah, Gaalctus oneshots him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Michael's wings were broken which was even cited which meant beating him isn't as impressive as if he were fully powered and oh yeah he tried talking to him so it's not impressive.

Yes, he was defeated by being stabbed in the back which meant sure he's powerful not unbeatable.

Eternity is more powerful and more formidable than Odin and unlike Michael he can't be defeated by someone random guy in the back with a spear.

Yes, he was losing power but was at full power when Michael routed him when all he had to do was stab him with a spear. Think, please.

Amenadiel was betrayed by Paul what's his name who really was impressive in terms of working everyone over. That's why he lost.

Yeah, Gaalctus oneshots him.

So? No one was citing as a mega-awesome-super feat. Lucifer beat Michael under special circumstances. They're so closely matched either of them could have won.

Someone mentioned the word quanuevering, and I like it. Stop your baseless quanuevering. No one ever claimed that Michael was unbeatable.

Not as pathetic as Eternity being trapped by Nightmare. A few people took a nap, and now Eternity is down for the count. I doubt Odin was ever beaten by a couple of dudes taking a snooze.

Michael never routed him, ever. Not even during the original battle in Heaven. The Presence showed Lucifer hell and offered its dominion, Lucifer accepted it and simply left the fight.

Christopher Rudd. Who was supposedly "betraying" Lucifer in the first place when he gave him the box. Sounds like Lucifer, idontknow, planned for that to happen. Same way Amenadiel planned the assassin, the random dudes with knives, and the insane cherub. And those didn't work.

Galactus jobs like he did to BRB.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
So? No one was citing as a mega-awesome-super feat. Lucifer beat Michael under special circumstances. They're so closely matched either of them could have won.

Someone mentioned the word quanuevering, and I like it. Stop your baseless quanuevering. No one ever claimed that Michael was unbeatable.

Not as pathetic as Eternity being trapped by Nightmare. A few people took a nap, and now Eternity is down for the count. I doubt Odin was ever beaten by a couple of dudes taking a snooze.

Michael never routed him, ever. Not even during the original battle in Heaven. The Presence showed Lucifer hell and offered its dominion, Lucifer accepted it and simply left the fight.

Christopher Rudd. Who was supposedly "betraying" Lucifer in the first place when he gave him the box. Sounds like Lucifer, idontknow, planned for that to happen. Same way Amenadiel planned the assassin, the random dudes with knives, and the insane cherub. And those didn't work.

Galactus jobs like he did to BRB. No, they aren't closely matched and the only time they went mano e mano with full powers michael stomped him and could have soloed the entire forces unlike him. If you read the comic why would you even dare to assume he's a matchup for a fully powered Michael?

Thanks for admitting it.

Odin was beaten by an army of ants. That takes the cake.

Michael routed the entire army with him included. I guess you forgot about all that.

Yes, chris was intricate in this.

Galactus was never hurt against BrB and was being starved. Galactus also didn't fire the un so he oneshots him here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, they aren't closely matched and the only time they went mano e mano with full powers michael stomped him and could have soloed the entire forces unlike him. If you read the comic why would you even dare to assume he's a matchup for a fully powered Michael?

Thanks for admitting it.

Odin was beaten by an army of ants. That takes the cake.

Michael routed the entire army with him included. I guess you forgot about all that.

Yes, chris was intricate in this.

Galactus was never hurt against BrB and was being starved. Galactus also didn't fire the un so he oneshots him here.

Your quanevering is pointless and a waste of time. The battle in Heaven was first mentioned in Sandman, and then retconned in Lucifer's own series. Originally he was cast down from Heaven, then it was changed to him voluntarily taking command of Hell. Lucifer's own series also barely mentions Heaven at all, referring more to the Silver City as the angels' domain. Must you slither and squirm like a snake to post opinions with no proof?

Unlike a certain Void enthusiast. How's RKT thread going?

Army of ants > Unconscious people

By delivering the heart. Anyone else in the same position could do the same thing, there was nothing special about Rudd himself.

He jobbed like the White Sox in the 1919 World Series. Reed Richards didn't need cosmic powers to fire the UN, and Galactus could have cornered BRB in a billion different ways. Telepathy, teleportation, simply telling the Surfer to kick his ass...but nope, he nearly starved to death. Reed Richards gets the best of him every time, this is easy for Lucifer.

For a cosmic being who's older then the universe itself and is supposed to be pretty intelligent, Big G doesn't really act too smart...

He couldn't even figure out how to rescue Nova from a Skrull prison planet. O_o

I mean, something as simple as sending an emissary with a message "Release Nova in five minutes, or I start chowing down on Skrull prime" probably would've done the job.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Your quanevering is pointless and a waste of time. The battle in Heaven was first mentioned in Sandman, and then retconned in Lucifer's own series. Originally he was cast down from Heaven, then it was changed to him voluntarily taking command of Hell. Lucifer's own series also barely mentions Heaven at all, referring more to the Silver City as the angels' domain. Must you slither and squirm like a snake to post opinions with no proof?

Unlike a certain Void enthusiast. How's RKT thread going?

Army of ants > Unconscious people

By delivering the heart. Anyone else in the same position could do the same thing, there was nothing special about Rudd himself.

He jobbed like the White Sox in the 1919 World Series. Reed Richards didn't need cosmic powers to fire the UN, and Galactus could have cornered BRB in a billion different ways. Telepathy, teleportation, simply telling the Surfer to kick his ass...but nope, he nearly starved to death. Reed Richards gets the best of him every time, this is easy for Lucifer. Sigh, I guess I will have to post scans then since you have no idea what it is you are talking about. This should be fun.

Stick to this topic mentioning something else just shows me I am inside your head.

Rudd's intelligence made him what he was. Without him Lucy was a goner. That's weak sauce.

Galactus has the un in this thread so he fires it and wins. he didn't fire it against BrB lucky for him.

Michael could end them all with a gesture and when he hesitated he lost due to his lack of durability.

Michael's power has always been leagues above his brother's. Anyone who read the series would know this.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Lucifer_11_p12.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Lucifer_11_p13-1.jpg

Originally posted by quanchi112
Sigh, I guess I will have to post scans then since you have no idea what it is you are talking about. This should be fun.

Stick to this topic mentioning something else just shows me I am inside your head.

Rudd's intelligence made him what he was. Without him Lucy was a goner. That's weak sauce.

Galactus has the un in this thread so he fires it and wins. he didn't fire it against BrB lucky for him.

*shrug* Posting scans from Sandman doesn't change what happened in Lucifer. Go ahead, it doesn't make a difference. I can just post the scans of him not falling from the sky.

No, I like discussing this particular character. He's one of my favorites.

You mean incinerated into a pile of ash by Fenris? He got there from a combination of demonic stupidity, weakass "leadership" from Remiel, Rudd's religious beliefs, Arux's daughter's grotesque fascination with his self-mutilation, and Duma's decision to give him the key. He was never especially clever or special, but that's why he become the lord of Hell: he was the last person anyone believed would attain that position. He never schemed his way to the top.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
*shrug* Posting scans from Sandman doesn't change what happened in Lucifer. Go ahead, it doesn't make a difference. I can just post the scans of him not falling from the sky.

No, I like discussing this particular character. He's one of my favorites.

You mean incinerated into a pile of ash by Fenris? He got there from a combination of demonic stupidity, weakass "leadership" from Remiel, Rudd's religious beliefs, Arux's daughter's grotesque fascination with his self-mutilation, and Duma's decision to give him the key. He was never especially clever or special, but that's why he become the lord of Hell: he was the last person anyone believed would attain that position. He never schemed his way to the top. This was a scan from his series not sandman. Carey made the character his own from this point on.


If you think he never made the most of his position and went from a slave in hell to it's king just because it was given to him you need to reread the series.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Michael could end them all with a gesture and when he hesitated he lost due to his lack of durability.


No shame in being pierced by a heaven spear.

Kind of like how that sword Michael used on Spectre isn't just a normal sword, I doubt a spear used in the war in heaven is just a regular spear.

Originally posted by cdtm
No shame in being pierced by a heaven spear.

Kind of like how that sword Michael used on Spectre isn't just a normal sword, I doubt a spear used in the war in heaven is just a regular spear. It shows how susceptible he is. We later see this angel killed as well. The female japanese demon killed a whole lot of angels as well. This is nowhere near Odin or Thanos level.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This was a scan from his series not sandman. Carey made the character his own from this point on.


If you think he never made the most of his position and went from a slave in hell to it's king just because it was given to him you need to reread the series.

It still doesn't show anything suggesting that Lucifer is greater or lesser than Michael; it certainly doesn't show Lucifer being deposed. It shows that Michael pushed Lucifer's forces to the edge of heaven. Considering his power it would have been disappointing if he couldn't accomplish that. Go find the scans that show the meeting between the Presence and Lucifer, with him accepting the rule of Hell. Lucifer and Michael are fighting evenly, and the Presence intervenes with a third option. Clearly, the scans you're showing occur after that transaction.

It was neither luck nor 100% his own will and effort. He had plans to reform Hell, but he couldn't have taken over by himself. He was lucky to be released from his torment, and Duma handed him the key to Hell.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It shows how susceptible he is. We later see this angel killed as well. The female japanese demon killed a whole lot of angels as well. This is nowhere near Odin or Thanos level.

Susceptible to weapons from angels and gods though. Angelic weapons.

They should harm Odin as well. One of Michaels swords harmed Spectre.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Without a doubt.

haermm2

Originally posted by quanchi112
It shows how susceptible he is. We later see this angel killed as well. The female japanese demon killed a whole lot of angels as well. This is nowhere near Odin or Thanos level.

Yeah, most angels are cannon fodder. Kind of like Parademons and every other mass group without a face.

BTW, angels are creatures of spirit. They don't have inherent physical durability or anything like that. Kind of pointless to talk about Michael's durability when he's not truly a physical being in the first place.

Lowballing FTW, eh, Quan?

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
It still doesn't show anything suggesting that Lucifer is greater or lesser than Michael; it certainly doesn't show Lucifer being deposed. It shows that Michael pushed Lucifer's forces to the edge of heaven. Considering his power it would have been disappointing if he couldn't accomplish that. Go find the scans that show the meeting between the Presence and Lucifer, with him accepting the rule of Hell. Lucifer and Michael are fighting evenly, and the Presence intervenes with a third option. Clearly, the scans you're showing occur after that transaction.

It was neither luck nor 100% his own will and effort. He had plans to reform Hell, but he couldn't have taken over by himself. He was lucky to be released from his torment, and Duma handed him the key to Hell. It says flat out he could end them all with a gesture. A gesture and yet you say it doesn't prove he's more powerful. Wow.Originally posted by cdtm
Susceptible to weapons from angels and gods though. Angelic weapons.

They should harm Odin as well. One of Michaels swords harmed Spectre. It didn't matter which weapons were used we saw demons attacking angels and hurting them with their own weapons as well. Michael was the most powerful but his durability was terrible for a being this powerful.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
haermm2 Yep.Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Yeah, most angels are cannon fodder. Kind of like Parademons and every other mass group without a face.

BTW, angels are creatures of spirit. They don't have inherent physical durability or anything like that. Kind of pointless to talk about Michael's durability when he's not truly a physical being in the first place. So Michael is canon fodder now?Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Lowballing FTW, eh, Quan? I am going over who is more powerful and it's Michael without a doubt. Michael also was defeated by far less than Thanos. I guess in your world we cannot discuss character defeats, right?

Originally posted by quanchi112
It says flat out he could end them all with a gesture. A gesture and yet you say it doesn't prove he's more powerful. Wow.

It's also been stated in-comic that Lucifer could annihilate the legions of Hell with a thought. He can do pretty much the exact same thing. Considering that you're relying on in-comic statements from his opinion, it's ironic that you ignore how the comic deliberately sets up the brothers as equals in power.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yep. So Michael is canon fodder now?

Trying to twist my words? Hardcore fail. Most angels are written as cannon fodder. The Spectre, Michael, and such are on another entire level.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
It's also been stated in-comic that Lucifer could annihilate the legions of Hell with a thought. He can do pretty much the exact same thing. Considering that you're relying on in-comic statements from his opinion, it's ironic that you ignore how the comic deliberately sets up the brothers as equals in power.



Trying to twist my words? Hardcore fail. Most angels are written as cannon fodder. The Spectre, Michael, and such are on another entire level. He himself was beaten though. He never bested him until he was depowered. He's that much more powerful he can take him out with a mere gesture. This is carey's series try and stay with me.

No one had infinite power and one had infinite will. You didn't read it at all.

So he was beaten by a canon fodder one then because he hesitated.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He himself was beaten though. He never bested him until he was depowered. He's that much more powerful he can take him out with a mere gesture. This is carey's series try and stay with me.

No one had infinite power and one had infinite will. You didn't read it at all.

So he was beaten by a canon fodder one then because he hesitated.

Nope, Lucifer was not beaten by Michael in individual combat. Re-read the issues until it is pounded into your impervious skull.

So Michael doesn't have infinite power but Lucifer has infinite will? Should I take that as Lucifer > Michael?

Sandalphon was never classified as cannon fodder. He was clever enough to manufacture the Demiurgos within Elaine. You can't even remember his name, and you tell me I need to read the books.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Nope, Lucifer was not beaten by Michael in individual combat. Re-read the issues until it is pounded into your impervious skull.

So Michael doesn't have infinite power but Lucifer has infinite will? Should I take that as Lucifer > Michael?

Sandalphon was never classified as cannon fodder. He was clever enough to manufacture the Demiurgos within Elaine. You can't even remember his name, and you tell me I need to read the books. He has enough power to defeat them all which includes his brother with a gesture.

Forgot the coma. Michael has the power whereas his brother has the will. Do you dispute this?

He was defeated easily and the only reason he defeated him was because his back was turned but this has nothing to do with his durability.

Lucifers will is what burned Presences name on every atom in creation. Sounds like a big power act to me..

Lucifer did respect Michaels power though.

But both should be well above Galactus's level, or an incomplete Infinity Gauntlet.

Dream of the Endless claims Lucifer is the most powerful Angel

Originally posted by cdtm
Lucifers will is what burned Presences name on every atom in creation. Sounds like a big power act to me..

Lucifer did respect Michaels power though.

But both should be well above Galactus's level, or an incomplete Infinity Gauntlet. Durability wise he gets wrecked though as we saw power enough to gesture them away but then owned by a spear.

Originally posted by ares834
Dream of the Endless claims Lucifer is the most powerful Angel Mike proved it on panel so what carries more weight here? was Michael even in existence point anyways? I mean wow.

For all we know, that spear could've been as powerful as The Spear of Destiny, a weapon powerful enough to wreck just about anyone.

Plus he's tanked Spectres best shot.

And yes, Michael wasn't in concept yet. This still proves Lucifer is one of the most powerful beings in existence, surpassed only by Presence and possibly Michael. Can't see the UN nullifying either brother, anymore than it will nullify LT or Thanos with the HOTU or IG...

Originally posted by cdtm
For all we know, that spear could've been as powerful as The Spear of Destiny, a weapon powerful enough to wreck just about anyone.

Plus he's tanked Spectres best shot.

And yes, Michael wasn't in concept yet. This still proves Lucifer is one of the most powerful beings in existence, surpassed only by Presence and possibly Michael. Can't see the UN nullifying either brother, anymore than it will nullify LT or Thanos with the HOTU or IG... So now we assume because it hurt him it was a special spear when the writer didn't portray it that way at all. Wow.

What happens in the dcu isn't canon to vertigo. There also is inconsistent writing so it varies dramatically.

Nah. This is vertigo version only.

These guys aren't close to the Lt. Nowhere near it and durability that's laughable.

Pretty sure it was Gabriel and Lucifer that was fighting in the battle, while Michael was busy leading the armies of Heaven against Lucifers forces.

Lucifer.

Originally posted by kevdude
Pretty sure it was Gabriel and Lucifer that was fighting in the battle, while Michael was busy leading the armies of Heaven against Lucifers forces.

Lucifer. Based on what can he survive the un?

Originally posted by quanchi112
So now we assume because it hurt him it was a special spear when the writer didn't portray it that way at all. Wow.

What happens in the dcu isn't canon to vertigo. There also is inconsistent writing so it varies dramatically.

Nah. This is vertigo version only.

These guys aren't close to the Lt. Nowhere near it and durability that's laughable.

Ostranders Spectre was written under mainstream dcu, and Lucifer, Michael, Remiel, and Duma all made appearances.

And yes, since these weren't terrestrial weapons, I think it's a fair assumption that the spear wasn't just a spear.

And you're ignoring his tanking Spectres best attacks.

Originally posted by cdtm
Ostranders Spectre was written under mainstream dcu, and Lucifer, Michael, Remiel, and Duma all made appearances.

And yes, since these weren't terrestrial weapons, I think it's a fair assumption that the spear wasn't just a spear.

And you're ignoring his tanking Spectres best attacks. That's canon to the dcu but his vertigo series is not. really simple.

So, is it your position that Michael was hurt by a normal spear, then? No different than anything what the Spartans used?

Originally posted by cdtm
So, is it your position that Michael was hurt by a normal spear, then? No different than anything what the Spartans used?

It wasn't mentioned that those spears were magical or cosmically powered. They were just regular spears as far as we are concerned.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
It wasn't mentioned that those spears were magical or cosmically powered. They were just regular spears as far as we are concerned.

And the basanos are just tarrot cards.

Sure, lets just ignore weapons like the thrice named sword, or ignore the fact it'd be totally retarded to attack Lucifer with normal spears. Or that one of those "normal swords" killed a fetus demon that ate old gods..

Or the fact they're not even made from anything on Earth.

Normal spears, yup.

There should be laws preventing Philistines from reading works like Lucifer and Sandman.

Originally posted by cdtm
So, is it your position that Michael was hurt by a normal spear, then? No different than anything what the Spartans used? He was hurt by any old spear they had access too.

Quan's my favorite poster. I swear to god.

Lucifer laughs at the ultimate nullifier, destroys Galactus and then uses than energy to shape himself an universe.

And if TheTyrant and quanchi wants to play the "Wasn't specifically stated" game:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/Annihilation4-026.jpg

I guess this proves Thanos has low durability against having his heart ripped out his chest, since no specific reason is stated for Drax having special "anti Thanos powers", right?

I mean, I've always assumed Drax evolved special powers to weaken Thanos specifically, but going by their logic we shouldn't make assumptions..

Originally posted by cdtm
but going by their logic we shouldn't make assumptions.. no we Should not....

UN or not, Galactus can't do shit. Lucifer could literally warp anything sent his way.

Uh, wasn't Drax resurrected, twice to boot, specifically to kill Thanos? That's important context which doesn't diminish Thanos' durability feats. There is no such context explaining how/why Lucifer got speared.

Originally posted by brownqk
There is no such context explaining how/why Lucifer got speared. The only instances I can recall in which Lucifer was stabbed is when he was either: a.) not at full power, or b.) when he was stabbed by a weapon of 'Heavenly' origins, to which we do not know the particulars behind.

But what should discredit the notion that a full power Lucifer can simply be 'stabbed to death', is his feat of tanking (ie. being unfazed by) a multiversal big bang at ground zero. Multiversal big bangs >g_infinity stabbing weapons.

Lucifer eats galactus
or do that thing kubik did with beyonder but this time crush galactus home the marvel omniverse in his hands

Originally posted by brownqk
Uh, wasn't Drax resurrected, twice to boot, specifically to kill Thanos? That's important context which doesn't diminish Thanos' durability feats. There is no such context explaining how/why Lucifer got speared.

And the heaven weapons have feats like stabbing to death a fetus monstrosity that ate up old gods. And the basanos, taking the form of tarot cards yet possessing power that makes even Lucifer near full power pause, is an example of the kind of technology Heaven is capable of making. This gives context to the sorts of items they'd employ in a war.

Not to mention, there's simple common sense.. Michael and Lucifer can tackle and absorb attacks from two beings with the power of The Presence, and are two of the most powerful beings in existence, and we're really going to assume they can be taken out with something Leonidas's would use??

Or put another way, if Superman gets taken out by a space gun, I take that as proving that space gun is really powerful. We don't know anything about the space gun, and so have no reason to doubt this is it's normal operating power, as this is the ONLY showing from the space gun.

With heaven weapons, we have Michael being stabbed through, a fetus demon being killed, and Fenris being wounded. There's really no reason to doubt the weapons are in fact this strong, since these are not Earth weapons and have no basis for compasion with Earth weapons, and all of their showings are decently high end ones.

The lowballing of Lucifer here is ridiculous.

Regardless of whether or not you think Galactus w/ the UN beats him, to actually try to suggest ordinary spears can harm him is beyond stupid. And yet, I'm sure as hell not surprised when I read some of the posts made in this thread.

Originally posted by cdtm
And the heaven weapons have feats like stabbing to death a fetus monstrosity that ate up old gods. And the basanos, taking the form of tarot cards yet possessing power that makes even Lucifer near full power pause, is an example of the kind of technology Heaven is capable of making. This gives context to the sorts of items they'd employ in a war.

Not to mention, there's simple common sense.. Michael and Lucifer can tackle and absorb attacks from two beings with the power of The Presence, and are two of the most powerful beings in existence, and we're really going to assume they can be taken out with something Leonidas's would use??

Or put another way, if Superman gets taken out by a space gun, I take that as proving that space gun is really powerful. We don't know anything about the space gun, and so have no reason to doubt this is it's normal operating power, as this is the ONLY showing from the space gun.

With heaven weapons, we have Michael being stabbed through, a fetus demon being killed, and Fenris being wounded. There's really no reason to doubt the weapons are in fact this strong, since these are not Earth weapons and have no basis for compasion with Earth weapons, and all of their showings are decently high end ones.


Fair enough.

lucifer is the second most powerful being in the DC totality.
that should be enough said

Lucifer wins

Originally posted by Galan007
UN or not, Galactus can't do shit. Lucifer could literally warp anything sent his way. Incorrect he warped Michael's power but can't just redirect any attack thrown his way. Michael let loose his power to create when he died and Lucy had the power to do with it as he would but to say he could just pwn Michael in actual battle is another matter entirely. The un's erasing powers aren't the same as the powers to create which resulted which Lucy manipulated.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The lowballing of Lucifer here is ridiculous.

Regardless of whether or not you think Galactus w/ the UN beats him, to actually try to suggest ordinary spears can harm him is beyond stupid. And yet, I'm sure as hell not surprised when I read some of the posts made in this thread. It was an angelic spear but not one of specific importance. While Michael had the power to defeat them all with but a gesture he could also be hurt by them if his guard wasn't up. This is consistent with how he was portrayed in the actual comic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Incorrect he warped Michael's power but can't just redirect any attack thrown his way. Michael let loose his power to create when he died and Lucy had the power to do with it as he would but to say he could just pwn Michael in actual battle is another matter entirely. The un's erasing powers aren't the same as the powers to create which resulted which Lucy manipulated. So now you're trying to limit Michael's power solely to creative energies? *sighs* sometimes your ridiculousness knows no bounds... Here is on panel PROOF (not your personal opinion) that Michael's powers are almost entirely destructive unless acted on by an outside source (ie. Lucifer.)


"Reflect a moment. Michael is a vessel for divine power. If he dies -- if that vessel cracks -- the worlds will be scoured clean of life. There will be nothing left":

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1259/lucifer13p16.th.jpg


"There is a power within me. The Dunamis Demiurgos. God's power. When I die it will pour out of me and overwhelm everything that exists":

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2092/lucifer54p18.th.jpg


And just for the hell of it, here's Lucifer warping the shit out of Mike's Demiurgic/destructive energies:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5418/lucifer13p17.th.jpg http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5605/lucifer13p1819.th.jpg http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6162/lucifer13p20.th.jpg

And here's proof that those energies were ultimately sufficient for Lucifer to mold a multiverse out of:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9821/lucifernirvanap05.th.jpg


Again, on panel proof trumps your opinion. No amount of dodging will change that fact, I'm afraid.

Originally posted by Galan007
So now you're trying to limit Michael's power solely to creative energies? *sighs* sometimes your ridiculousness knows no bounds... Here is on panel PROOF (not your personal opinion) that Michael's powers are almost entirely destructive unless acted on by an outside source (ie. Lucifer.)


"Reflect a moment. Michael is a vessel for divine power. If he dies -- if that vessel cracks -- the worlds will be scoured clean of life. There will be nothing left":

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1259/lucifer13p16.th.jpg


"There is a power within me. The Dunamis Demiurgos. God's power. When I die it will pour out of me and overwhelm everything that exists":

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2092/lucifer54p18.th.jpg


And just for the hell of it, here's Lucifer warping the shit out of Mike's Demiurgic/destructive energies:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5418/lucifer13p17.th.jpg http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5605/lucifer13p1819.th.jpg http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6162/lucifer13p20.th.jpg

And here's proof that those energies were ultimately sufficient for Lucifer to mold a multiverse out of:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9821/lucifernirvanap05.th.jpg


Again, on panel proof trumps your opinion. No amount of dodging will change that fact, I'm afraid.

oh hai thur

Do you have the scans of God clearly and blatantly intervening in the Lucifer/Michael fight and giving Lucifer control of hell?

^ It was actually Lucifer/Gabriel..
http://img297.imageshack.us/i/lucifer75p12.jpg/
http://img541.imageshack.us/i/lucifer75p13.jpg/
http://img155.imageshack.us/i/lucifer75p14.jpg/
http://img694.imageshack.us/i/lucifer75p15.jpg/

Originally posted by Galan007
^ It was actually Lucifer/Gabriel..
http://img297.imageshack.us/i/lucifer75p12.jpg/
http://img541.imageshack.us/i/lucifer75p13.jpg/
http://img155.imageshack.us/i/lucifer75p14.jpg/
http://img694.imageshack.us/i/lucifer75p15.jpg/

Sorry about the mistaken identity. But a fellow forum goer was saying that Lucifer was kicked out of heave, and I didn't recall it that way.

Originally posted by Galan007
So now you're trying to limit Michael's power solely to creative energies? *sighs* sometimes your ridiculousness knows no bounds... Here is on panel PROOF (not your personal opinion) that Michael's powers are almost entirely destructive unless acted on by an outside source (ie. Lucifer.)


"Reflect a moment. Michael is a vessel for divine power. If he dies -- if that vessel cracks -- the worlds will be scoured clean of life. There will be nothing left":

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1259/lucifer13p16.th.jpg


"There is a power within me. The Dunamis Demiurgos. God's power. When I die it will pour out of me and overwhelm everything that exists":

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2092/lucifer54p18.th.jpg


And just for the hell of it, here's Lucifer warping the shit out of Mike's Demiurgic/destructive energies:

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5418/lucifer13p17.th.jpg http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5605/lucifer13p1819.th.jpg http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6162/lucifer13p20.th.jpg

And here's proof that those energies were ultimately sufficient for Lucifer to mold a multiverse out of:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9821/lucifernirvanap05.th.jpg


Again, on panel proof trumps your opinion. No amount of dodging will change that fact, I'm afraid. They are just that massive creative energies. Lucy controlled or tempered them. Yes, they can overwhelm reality unless focused or controlled by someone else such as himself or elaine.

Lucy can't just send away whatever destructive forces he decides to send his way in battle since he was bested already by Michael and it was as easy as a gesture had he wanted to do so.

You are taking one feat out of context and falsely applying it to how Lucy was portrayed the entire series. He wasn't simply able to rechannel any foes power sent his way. I see a lot of posters try in vain to do so.

*sigh* There's no need to argue with you any further, the scans blatantly say all that needs to be said. Everyone else is free to decide for themselves.

Originally posted by Galan007
*sigh* There's no need to argue with you any further, the scans blatantly say all that needs to be said. Everyone else is free to decide for themselves.

So you feel in combat he can manipulate his energies directed against him by the same character?

Originally posted by Galan007
*sigh* There's no need to argue with you any further, the scans blatantly say all that needs to be said. Everyone else is free to decide for themselves.

good job ending the thread.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Lucy can't just send away whatever destructive forces he decides to send his way in battle since he was bested already by Michael and it was as easy as a gesture had he wanted to do so.

Yeah, but he didn't. Must have been bad writing, just the Void. vin

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Yeah, but he didn't. Must have been bad writing, just the Void. vin He wasn't portrayed in this manner at all during the series which has always been my point.

Originally posted by quanchi112
He wasn't portrayed in this manner at all during the series which has always been my point.

I left out an important word in there, but whatever.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
I left out an important word in there, but whatever. I happily accept your concession.

*raises white flag*

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
*raises white flag*

I'm starting to wonder why anybody even bothers...

Anyways, Galactus wins.

...and I'm not even going to edit that out. THIS is where my brain is at now trying to.... gah!

What I meant to say, is Lucifer wins.

Originally posted by cdtm
I'm starting to wonder why anybody even bothers...

Anyways, Galactus wins.

...and I'm not even going to edit that out. THIS is where my brain is at now trying to.... gah!

What I meant to say, is Lucifer wins.

The son of Yahweh triumphs, but he doesn't need my help to do it.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Ultimate Nullifier > Spears > Lucifer

Amirite Quanchi?