Darth Caedus: Questions about Him

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Board Walker
What was his saber style?

What was his combat style? Ie direct, stealth, manipulation etc.

How skilled was his tactical acumen? (Large scale tactics - fleet vs fleet, armies vs armies, commandership/generalship)

How skilled was his tactical strategy? (Person vs person intelligencem duels, assassinations, etc.)

How fast was he?

How strong/skilled was he in direct force powers? (Force lightening, tk, force buffing himself with speed, reflexes, etc and all other exotic powers). Also where does he rank in top 5 for top 5 most powerful force users?

Ie
1. De sidious
2.???
3. Caedus

How strong was he with indirect force powers? (Battle meditation, seeing future, precognition, cloaking himself, illusions) and how does he rank compared to the top others?
1
2
3
Etc

What known force powers did he have? (Ie invisibility, illusions, mind control, tk, force gip, drain, lightening, etc)

How skilled/powerful was he in regards to melee/saber to saber combat? Also wher does he rank among the top saber users?

Ie
1.luke
2.yoda
3.???
Etc etc

How high was his damage soak, endurance/stamina? (Ie could out last someone, take injury, fight through pain)

How resilliant was he to incoming offensive force powers? (Ie how resistant to force lightening, force tk, illusions, mind control, etc)

How does he rank compared to others?
1
2
3
4
Etc

MasterAshenVor
o.O I feel like I should be doing and Algebra problem with this topic.

Gideon
BW
What was his saber style?

dunno



A mix of both. He wasn't Palpatine/Lumiya-class stealthy, but he tried to keep his hands relatively clean until push came to shove.



He was no Thrawn or Zaarin or Ackbar, but due to battle meditation and moderate intellect, he managed all right. It was just in the presence of a formidable foe that he lost his composure. If 10 is Thrawn, Caedus was about a 5, IMHO.



He was a superior political strategist than a military tactician; he successfully manipulated many of the main characters and hid his involvement in Mara Jade's death from Luke and Ben for a while, not to mention he pulled the rug out from under Cal Omas and Gilad Pellaeon. If Palpatine was a 10 in terms of political strategy, Caedus was about a 7.



Fast enough to block a sneak attack by an outrageously pissed off Luke Skywalker.



The recent Fate of the Jedi books is littered with generic accolades for him, along the lines of "powerful" to "extremely powerful." He believed, early in Legacy of the Force, that he was second only to Luke as a Jedi. I'd say, as a Jedi, he was top tier. As a Sith, he was more than a match for Kyle Katarn and a group of Jedi Knights and padawans, though I wouldn't say by a lot. The jacket to Invincible says his Force powers were greater than Darth Vader's.

So, honestly? I'd say before his death he probably was second only to Luke in terms of straight up power.



I'd say he's pretty decent here. In the Dark Nest crisis, he demonstrated enough skill to manipulate Luke with illusions (though this shifted to Luke's advantage in Legacy of the Force, suggesting that a person's state of mind is important to resisting illusions). They made a big deal about his battle meditation and ability to cloak himself. In terms of esoteric/indirect Force powers, he's on par with Luke in some ways and better than him in others.



All the above?



In Fury, he defeated Kyle Katarn (the new Jedi Order's battle instructor) and Katarn's group of Knights and padawans, he held his own against an outrageously pissed off Luke Skywalker, and despite disadvantages, dominated his fight with Jaina.

Again, I'd say he's top tier in the new Jedi Order era.



He gets top marks here; Caedus probably has the highest pain threshold in the new Jedi Order era and one of the highest in the mythos.



Again, it depended on his state of mind. He went from calm and calculating, able to manipulate Luke Skywalker in the Dark Nest Trilogy to being deranged, homicidal, and paranoid, and subsequently lost any sort of advantage he possessed.



He was easily top five of his era; personally, I'd put him in the top three, his only other rival being Kyp Durron. I think he's better than Kyle, and beneath Luke.

SWFan4Life
I pretty much agree with Gideon's views, pretty solid man.

To answer the first question about saber style, I believe he was adept in several forms. He was already at the master lightsaber duelist level by the end of the New Jedi Order series (doesn't mean you can't surpass a master level and continue to improve). He could counter Luke, Kyle, Mara Jade, and anybody else who went against him, so he had a solid defense style, but he could also push on the offensive. I would think the only couple of styles he didn't have would be the style that Sidious, Yoda, and Luke Skywalker all exhibited:

Form IV: Ataru, the crazy, agile, acrobatic style where you come at the opponent from all angles.

Form VII: Mace Windu's form: Vaapad: Caedus didn't have this one either, if I recall. (Note, neither Yoda or Palpatine have exhibited Vaapad. I am not sure if Luke ever has, though I wouldn't be surprised if he could easily learn it, as he did Shatterpoint, another skill Mace Windu had).

Board Walker
That was an amazing post, you answered near everything I was seeking.

So basically, caedus was second only to luke in some areas, and unsurpassed in other areas by none? So if overall mythos wise if an extremely pissed off luke is ranked #1, then caedus is #2?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Board Walker
What was his saber style?



I don't think it was any of the classical forms.



A mix.



He seemed to be pretty competent at that, although he's no Thrawn.



Again, he's pretty competent.



Pretty fast actually. He's shown to be able to maneuver very well. He was able to avoid sniper attacks from Jaina by using a mando as a human shield, and he also kept up with LOTF Luke, moving faster than the eye could see.



He was said to be more powerful in the Force than Darth Vader. I'm not sure if he's in the top 5 of all time; definitely for his era.




He knew battle meditation, had both short term and some long term precog/seeing future and his illusions sometimes even fooled Luke.



TK/passive use/etc.
Lightning
He could deflect blaster bolts with his hands
battle meditation
illusions
a bunch of Force skills he learned from different Force societies



He stood up to LOTF Luke in a saber fight, so he's pretty skilled. He also knew some martial arts styles.



Caedus was VERY capable of taking pain, so much that the loss of an arm didn't seem to phase him and that he fed off of his own pain.



Well he got fooled by an illusion from LOTF Luke, but LOTF Luke is pretty powerful. Again, Caedus has a very high tolerance to pain.



I'd say below Yoda and probably Mace but above Dooku. Somewhere around that.

Gideon
BW
That was an amazing post, you answered near everything I was seeking.

No problem.



Somewhat.

Between the war against the Yuuzhan Vong and the Dark Nest Crisis, Jacen explored the galaxy and studied under several non-Jedi/Sith Force-using cults and learned a lot of esoteric techniques. In terms of abstract knowledge, he's at least Skywalker's equal and very likely his superior.

In terms of Force strength, he's no match for an unrestrained or determined Skywalker, but was able to keep up with him in single combat.



Not at all.

There are certain duelists and Force users who have demonstrated more strength and skill than Caedus and who are on par with Luke.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Gideon
So, honestly? I'd say before his death he probably was second only to Luke in terms of straight up power.

Talking about just NJO users, right?

Gideon
DG
Talking about just NJO users, right?

ya

It's been a long ass time since I've read Fury, but I know enough to conclude that even if it's not by miles, Caedus is definitely Kyle's superior.

It's hard to assess where Kyp ranks next to Caedus, since he really didn't do shit during the Legacy of the Force.

Darth_Glentract
I agree, he was definitely better than Kyle. We really don't know much about the power of the rest of the Order anymore though, since it seems that after the NJO series ended, authors completely forgot that non-Skywalker's/Solo's could do anything of significance. Seriously, besides Raynar leading the Killicks, no one has done anything big. Troy Denning seriously needs to wake up to that.

Board Walker
So over all (factoring in all strengths and expertise) in top 10 mythos, where does caedus fall, and where does luke fall?

Also for top 10 of all mythos for purely 1v1 combat where do caedus and luke fall?

And, if caedus would have been refreshed and at full strength, pittied against luke, both of whome are out to kill the other, in a gladiator type arena, who'd yo you believe would win? Could caedus win? Would he lose but leave luke so injured he would die of wounds? Your opinions and perceptions fascinate me!

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Board Walker
So over all (factoring in all strengths and expertise) in top 10 mythos, where does caedus fall, and where does luke fall?

Also for top 10 of all mythos for purely 1v1 combat where do caedus and luke fall?

And, if caedus would have been refreshed and at full strength, pittied against luke, both of whome are out to kill the other, in a gladiator type arena, who'd yo you believe would win? Could caedus win? Would he lose but leave luke so injured he would die of wounds? Your opinions and perceptions fascinate me!

Luke would likely beat Caedus; from what I remember Luke was more injured than Caedus in that fight in LOTF: Inferno but Luke still won. Plus Caedus himself admitted that Luke was more powerful than him.

In the top 10 of the SW mythos, Caedus is likely 4, 5 or 6. This is not factoring in stuff such as orbalisks/amulets/etc.

Gideon
BW
So over all (factoring in all strengths and expertise) in top 10 mythos, where does caedus fall, and where does luke fall?

It depends solely on your perspective. Luke, in particular, is one of the most inconsistent characters in the mythos. On one hand, you have him using the Force to manipulate dovin basals and tethering himself to the ground in such a way that "not even the galaxy's central black hole could move him" and on the other, you have a relative nobody like Lumiya kicking his ass and no-name Sith Lords resisting his telekinesis.

You have certain parties who prefer to ignore the lower ending feats, concentrate solely on his higher showings, and if you do that, he's very likely the number one Force user in galactic history.

My perspective is to take into account all of the feats and assume that some of his higher end showings (like the whole black hole thing) is probably exaggeration and hyperbole and, in a straight up engagement, Luke rarely (if ever) shows that kind of power. For me, Luke would still definitely be top five



For me, Luke's top five in combat. Caedus isn't.



Skywalker consistently demonstrates considerable superiority in terms of Force strength, but Caedus was able to contend and harm Luke in their duel in Inferno, despite his uncle's certain advantages.

Luke would definitely win, in my opinion, but he'd probably be injured in the process.

MasterAshenVor
THE ANSWER IS FISH!!!!...just to let you know.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
It depends solely on your perspective. Luke, in particular, is one of the most inconsistent characters in the mythos. On one hand, you have him using the Force to manipulate dovin basals and tethering himself to the ground in such a way that "not even the galaxy's central black hole could move him" and on the other, you have a relative nobody like Lumiya kicking his ass and no-name Sith Lords resisting his telekinesis.



Lumiya in many of their fights was using human shields and such. In the final fight between Luke and Lumiya Luke pwned her.



Yes, Luke is likely the most powerful in the SW mythos.



Luke is the most powerful in the SW mythos. The only other big contender is DE Sidious, but Luke totally outclasses him in lightsaber dueling.



Without orbalisks/amulets/etc., Caedus probably is in the top 5.

1. Luke
2. Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Caedus
5. Mace



Luke was more injured than Caedus at the beginning of their duel and still won.

Board Walker
I thought sidious was an amazing duelist with a saber?

Darth_Glentract
Making a top five or top ten list is really difficult. Do we put Sekot or Abeloth on the list? What about Nyax when he was amped up by Force well on Coruscant? Or Raynar when he controlled the Killicks? And then we just don't know enough about guys like Tulak Hord and Ragnos to know where to place them on the list.

Given all that....

1. Luke
2. DE Sidious

Caedus is somewhere below top two. More, we don't really know. In a 1v1 fight I doubt he's top 5. Overall Force ability though, he's way up there, maybe surpassing Luke.

Gideon
He is.



I don't know about Sekot; aside from being a planet, what were his major displays of Force power? If that's all he has, is sheer size (lol), then that's not going to save him from a Force Storm, which can tear the surfaces off worlds.

Abeloth, to me, is similar to Anakin Skywalker: powerful in the Force, but demonstrates little skill with it.



Sure, just with that caveat.



I believe you can examine what we know about them to give them a rough estimate. That Ragnos was the supreme overlord of the ancient Sith is certainly enough to say that he's one of the very most powerful Force users ever, just not nearly enough for Janus and co. to say he could LAWL PWN EVERYONE EVERYWHERE.



I'd need to ponder it more.

Dr McBeefington
I sincerely hope you're not referring to him trying to bring the sith ship down while the sith in the ship flying away are trying to stop him? NOTHING pathetic about that.

truejedi
Behind Luke and Sidous,

Caedus/Bane/Yoda/Windu and MAYBE Exar Kun and MAYBE Kyp Durron fall into a sort of to close to call, dangerous enough to challenge and maybe even beat the top tier on any given day sort of second tier.

In my opinion.

Also, I don't think Caedus knew invisibility.

Gideon
DS
I sincerely hope you're not referring to him trying to bring the sith ship down while the sith in the ship flying away are trying to stop him? NOTHING pathetic about that.

It absolutely is, if we're comparing it to his earlier feats of manipulating a dovin basal and using the Force to tether himself to the ground so that not even a black hole could move him.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
It absolutely is, if we're comparing it to his earlier feats of manipulating a dovin basal and using the Force to tether himself to the ground so that not even a black hole could move him.

He wasn't in a life or death situation? He went absolutely steroid crazy against Abeloth.

Gideon
I don't see how he'd need to be in a life or death situation to restrain a fleeing enemy, but we'll agree to disagree.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
It absolutely is, if we're comparing it to his earlier feats of manipulating a dovin basal and using the Force to tether himself to the ground so that not even a black hole could move him.

Luke not only had to counter that sith lord's power (and that sith was stated to be a match for Kyp or Kyle) but the shuttle's thrusters as well, as well as the sheer size of the shuttle. And I'm pretty sure that the shuttle has far more powerful thrusters than the shuttles we use today.

Gideon
If you're responding to me,

You do know what the ignore function on our user control panel does, right? It literally prevents me from reading your posts. If you're so desperate for my attention, simply apologize for your stupidity and make a solemn vow to correct it.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
If you're responding to me,

You do know what the ignore function on our user control panel does, right? It literally prevents me from reading your posts. If you're so desperate for my attention, simply apologize for your stupidity and make a solemn vow to correct it.

First of all, although I was responding to your post my response was directed towards anyone interested in this discussion.

Second of all, I understand how the ignore function works. I tried it before on Lord Lucien, but eventually couldn't resist reading his posts. smile Hence why I don't see the point of it; if you don't want to read someone's posts just don't read them.

Third of all, if you ignore all of my posts, how are you going to read an apology?

Oh, and a question: does the ignore function also block PM's?

Board Walker
So overall factoring in all aspects and skill genres, caedus is arguaby third?

1. Luke
2. DE sidious
3. Caedus

????

Also even if caedus was inferior to another saber user, could his force power cover the gap?

Ie...say if caedus fought de sidious in a 1v1, how would he fare?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Board Walker
So overall factoring in all aspects and skill genres, caedus is arguaby third?

1. Luke
2. DE sidious
3. Caedus

????

No. Yoda > Caedus, and Mace probably > Caedus.

Gideon
BW
So overall factoring in all aspects and skill genres, caedus is arguaby third?

1. Luke
2. DE sidious
3. Caedus

????

Very arguably. Very.

Board Walker
I was getting the impression caedus was superior in the force and second only to luke and or sidious?

As for sabers he kept up with a raging luke, I imagined him as being superior to mace or is this inaccurate?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Board Walker
I was getting the impression caedus was superior in the force and second only to luke and or sidious?

As for sabers he kept up with a raging luke, I imagined him as being superior to mace or is this inaccurate?

Well, in a fight Mace would beat Caedus thanks to vapaad/shatterpoint. But without putting them against eachother, it's debatable.

Gideon
That Caedus is (probably) second only to Luke in the new Jedi Order era does not mean he's second only to Luke period. Off ze top of my head,

Palpatine, Yoda, Kyp Durron, Vader, Dooku, Ragnos, Bane, Sadow, Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, UnuThul, Lord Nyax, and Galen Marek (Starkiller) have either demonstrated powers or, through canon statements, exhibit enough status to be on par or greater than Caedus.

And if I were you, (for future reference) I would pretty much ignore everything HWKN says unless a more experienced and established member happens to agree; this guy thinks Luke could solo the fvcking Empire.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Gideon
That Caedus is (probably) second only to Luke in the new Jedi Order era does not mean he's second only to Luke period. Off ze top of my head,

Palpatine, Yoda, Kyp Durron, Vader, Dooku, Ragnos, Bane, Sadow, Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, UnuThul, Lord Nyax, and Galen Marek (Starkiller) have either demonstrated powers or, through canon statements, exhibit enough status to be on par or greater than Caedus.

And if I were you, (for future reference) I would pretty much ignore everything HWKN says unless a more experienced and established member happens to agree; this guy thinks Luke could solo the fvcking Empire.

1. Of the ones stated, only Sidious, Yoda, Bane, Kun, UnuThul and Galen could possibly to greater on their own power.

2. Gideon is lying. First of all, I said Luke + the NJO Council kills Sidious, not Luke alone (although Luke alone probably could). Secondly, after that the Empire would still exist, although it would fragment, and it would still take the GFFA and its allies to defeat the remnants of the Empire.

truejedi
Originally posted by truejedi
Behind Luke and Sidous,

Caedus/Bane/Yoda/Windu and MAYBE Exar Kun and MAYBE Kyp Durron fall into a sort of to close to call, dangerous enough to challenge and maybe even beat the top tier on any given day sort of second tier.

In my opinion.

Also, I don't think Caedus knew invisibility.

ben222
Originally posted by Gideon
It depends solely on your perspective. Luke, in particular, is one of the most inconsistent characters in the mythos. On one hand, you have him using the Force to manipulate dovin basals and tethering himself to the ground in such a way that "not even the galaxy's central black hole could move him" and on the other, you have a relative nobody like Lumiya kicking his ass and no-name Sith Lords resisting his telekinesis.

You have certain parties who prefer to ignore the lower ending feats, concentrate solely on his higher showings, and if you do that, he's very likely the number one Force user in galactic history.

My perspective is to take into account all of the feats and assume that some of his higher end showings (like the whole black hole thing) is probably exaggeration and hyperbole and, in a straight up engagement, Luke rarely (if ever) shows that kind of power. For me, Luke would still definitely be top five



For me, Luke's top five in combat. Caedus isn't.



Skywalker consistently demonstrates considerable superiority in terms of Force strength, but Caedus was able to contend and harm Luke in their duel in Inferno, despite his uncle's certain advantages.

Luke would definitely win, in my opinion, but he'd probably be injured in the process.



I think that I discovered your reasoning Gideon, you are an anti Luke...
Moreover, your opinion about luke is generally unfounded and false.

Red Nemesis
erm

If you want to avoid flaying then you'r gonna have to give us a little bit more than "Gideon you'r rong b/c i said so."

Prove it.

truejedi
yeah new friend, he is right. : /

But it can't really be proven either way,


BUT me and gideon have proven that non-luke believers and luke believers can live together peaceably AS LONG As we just don't call the other out as wrong all the time.

ben222
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
erm

If you want to avoid flaying then you'r gonna have to give us a little bit more than "Gideon you'r rong b/c i said so."

Prove it.
I agree with you , I am going to explain my opinion :

Originally posted by Gideon
.

Skywalker consistently demonstrates considerable superiority in terms of Force strength, but Caedus was able to contend and harm Luke in their duel in Inferno, despite his uncle's certain advantages.

.
It was clearly explained that luke dominated completely the duel, furthermore, Caedus was able to contend luke only because of many objects of tortures .
I didn't understand why you wrote advantages while it would be rather about disadvantages(old wounds for luke, Ben who is is really stupid during this fight...

Originally posted by Gideon
Lumiya kicking his ass and no-name Sith Lords resisting his telekinesis.


What, have you ever read lotf and backlash ?
In lotf luke fights three times lumiya, the results:
2 victories for luke and an equality.
And this "no-name Sith Lords "was declared as powerful as Kyle Katarn or Kyp Durron, he is besides completely dominated by luke .

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
erm

If you want to avoid flaying then you'r gonna have to give us a little bit more than "Gideon you'r rong b/c i said so."

Prove it.

I'll help Ben222 at this.

Gideon keeps on focusing on Luke's supposedly lower showings, but actually many of them can be explained. The only one really that can't that I know of is that him and Mara vs a droideka one, which was pretty much PIS.

For example, he supposedly struggled against the Hidden One. However, we need to remember that the Hidden One is an unknown, yet Luke is not. Therefore, we don't know if that is a high or low showing for Luke since we can't exactly quantify the Hidden One's power. However, since we can quantify Luke's power, we can have the fight as a high showing for the Hidden One in that he stood up to a quantifiable opponent (Luke), but not a low feat for Luke since for all we know the Hidden One couldn't been UBER POWERFUL!!!!!

And for that shuttle one in FOTJ: Backlash, remember that Luke was pulling down against the weight of the shuttle, the thrusters of the shuttle (which are likely far more powerful than those found on Earth's) AND the telekinesis counter of the sith lord, who was stated to be on Kyp's and Kyle's level (well, at least at dueling; his Force power wasn't stated).

One Free Man
You do realize you (the least respected debater) are constantly butting heads with the most respected and established debater on the forum? As a result, you are constantly being totally and utterly devastated.

Hewhoknowsall
@One Free Man:

Those respected debaters became respected because people read their arguments and thought they were good. I'm pretty sure that you didn't actually read in detail my post, so how are you to quantify my post's validity if you didn't read it? For all you know it could've been the most brilliant argument ever made. And although it isn't quite as good as that, my post was indeed a well thought out argument. If you were to read it and try and actually think about what I'm trying to say, you'd realize it.

SWFan4Life
Though I don't disagree that Luke is one of the most powerful Force-wielders/lightsaber duelists (if not THE most powerful) in galactic history, there have been times in the EU where there does seem to be inconsistencies or just plain weaker than we really thought Luke could be; however I think these events are included to show that he is not all-invincible, and that even though he practically is a Jedi with no equal, he is still flesh-and-blood, can make mistakes, and can bleed.

I don't have any citations off the top of my head where said inconsistencies occur, but I just remember in the past as I have read the books, that some things he did, or wasn't able to do, just seemed off.

One Free Man
Dear Hewhoknowshowtoclimaxapenisin6.2seconds:

I'm going to ignore that last post (even though I read it) and honestly try to help you out. I hate to see a guy get flamed at every turn. Don't waste my time, try and take my advice, it's meant in good-will.

Here's a little mini-guide on how to gain popularity and validity on the forum. Consider me your PR guy.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/namechange.php
Change your name to something that inspires a little less hatred. People see your name and instantly think your an uppity know it all and want to prove you wrong. I'm serious. first time I saw your name, I thought: now there goes an *******. I'm just going to love flaming his ass. A new name can be a real change of "first impressions" and give you a little bit of a second chance.

Also, the impression people get from your name is only strengthened by the content of your posts. You never give up, you constantly fight that you are right when everyone has already sided against you just because you come off as a pretentious dick know-it-all. Back down sometimes. If you see everyone agreeing with the opposition "I stand corrected" is a great way to sound honest and intelligent without eating crow or losing a debate. People respect someone who can admit defeat. For you, at this point, it's not about being right, it's about gaining PR because nobody is ever going to take you seriously in your present position. (You're wrong btw, but even if you were right, everyone would say you're wrong just to knock you off your high horse, then call you retarded until you begged to know why everyone hates you)

WELL IM TELLING YOU WHY EVERYONE HATES YOU AND HOW TO FIX.

Stop antagonizing Gideon. If he disagrees with you, the entire forum disagrees with you. And you're legitimately wrong in most cases. I have never seen Gideon say a word without backing it with facts. He is legitimately considered the best in the forum and antagonizing him isn't helping your cause.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by One Free Man
Dear Hewhoknowshowtoclimaxapenisin6.2seconds:

I'm going to ignore that last post (even though I read it) and honestly try to help you out. I hate to see a guy get flamed at every turn. Don't waste my time, try and take my advice, it's meant in good-will.

Here's a little mini-guide on how to gain popularity and validity on the forum. Consider me your PR guy.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/namechange.php
Change your name to something that inspires a little less hatred. People see your name and instantly think your an uppity know it all and want to prove you wrong. I'm serious. first time I saw your name, I thought: now there goes an *******. I'm just going to love flaming his ass. A new name can be a real change of "first impressions" and give you a little bit of a second chance.

Also, the impression people get from your name is only strengthened by the content of your posts. You never give up, you constantly fight that you are right when everyone has already sided against you just because you come off as a pretentious dick know-it-all. Back down sometimes. If you see everyone agreeing with the opposition "I stand corrected" is a great way to sound honest and intelligent without eating crow or losing a debate. People respect someone who can admit defeat. For you, at this point, it's not about being right, it's about gaining PR because nobody is ever going to take you seriously in your present position. (You're wrong btw, but even if you were right, everyone would say you're wrong just to knock you off your high horse, then call you retarded until you begged to know why everyone hates you)

WELL IM TELLING YOU WHY EVERYONE HATES YOU AND HOW TO FIX.

Stop antagonizing Gideon. If he disagrees with you, the entire forum disagrees with you. And you're legitimately wrong in most cases. I have never seen Gideon say a word without backing it with facts. He is legitimately considered the best in the forum and antagonizing him isn't helping your cause.

I appreciate that you're apparently trying to help me, although you do seem to contradict yourself on that stance in this post.

Also, ALL of that in which you said I have done except for the changing of my user name. I'm one of the only debaters on KMC forums I know that actually admits that he's wrong when he really is. Seriously. I've done this multiple times. I just don't like to admit that I'm wrong when I'm actually not wrong.

Nephthys
Also, go watch Rogue Jedi in MVF and the entire Game versus forum post. Then do the exact oppposite of what they do.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, go watch Rogue Jedi in MVF and the entire Game versus forum post. Then do the exact oppposite of what they do.

LOL yeah. The poster Rogue Jedi can be very stubborn at times.

But seriously, I'm one of the only member I know about in KMC forums that does indeed admit that I'm wrong when I actually am. No offense One Free Man, but I remember no instance of you doing so.

Nephthys
If thats true then go over and admit in the Empire thread that even if Luke could assassinate Palpatine, it would do diddly squat and your initial premise was wrong.

I pinky dare you Motha****a!

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
If thats true then go over and admit in the Empire thread that even if Luke could assassinate Palpatine, it would do diddly squat and your initial premise was wrong.

I pinky dare you Motha****a!

I will if you or someone provides me with conclusive evidence supporting that.

One Free Man
STOP TAKING PEoPLEs POST SO SERIOUSLY.

Some times people will call you retarded and if you roll with the punch, it will defuse the situation. For instance:

much more established debater: Lol you retard.

HewhoknowswherethemaleGspotis(clueitsintheass):WHY
DO YOU HATE ME??? I MEAN ALL IVE EVER DONE IS DEBATE!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
same situation, different style. Realize these people have nothing against you, they just wanna see you react. you have a few choices in this situation that don't involve like a retarded person.

Established debator: Lol you retard.

choice 1(make a joke a, turn it around on them. This can make you look like an ass, so I wouldn't use it until you have more establishment on the forum): Lol I must be retarded, but your mom must love special kids, cause we did it all night long.

choice 2(make a joke b, MOCK HURT. Unfortunately with the way you've been acting lately, nobody will think your kidding): ex: "MY MOMMA SAYS ONLY TEH MEANIES CALL US DAT AND THE NICE PEOPLE CALL US SPECIAL."

choice 3(ignore): Ignore the insult. It's playground land. They would assault you if you don't react. This is your best choice as of now.

Realize that they don't know you and have no affect on your life. They're insults are meant to stir humor, not cause you pain. Unless you continue in the way you are already going. In which case, more pain to you.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Board Walker
So overall factoring in all aspects and skill genres, caedus is arguaby third?

1. Luke
2. DE sidious
3. Caedus

????

Also even if caedus was inferior to another saber user, could his force power cover the gap?

Ie...say if caedus fought de sidious in a 1v1, how would he fare?

It really depends on what makes someone "better" than someone else. If you want to go based on exotic Force abilities, Jacen is pretty much second to none. Political abilities, then I guess Palpatine beats him and thats about it.

If we want to go with a 1v1 fight, then things become a lot different. There are a good number of people who could be argued as being on his level. Not saying they'd win, but it'd be up for debate at least.

He's Gideons list, which I mostly agree with.

Palpatine, Yoda, Kyp Durron, Vader, Dooku, Ragnos, Bane, Sadow, Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, UnuThul, Lord Nyax, and Galen Marek (Starkiller) have either demonstrated powers or, through canon statements, exhibit enough status to be on par or greater than Caedus.

To this, I'd add Nihilus, Sekot, Abeloth, Zannah, Traya, Revan, and of course Luke. Again, not saying it'd be a definite victory for any of these, but that they're enough to at least give him a good fight. Only people I'd say have an almost assured win would be Luke and DE Sidious.

One Free Man
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I appreciate that you're apparently trying to help me, although you do seem to contradict yourself on that stance in this post.

Also, ALL of that in which you said I have done except for the changing of my user name. I'm one of the only debaters on KMC forums I know that actually admits that he's wrong when he really is. Seriously. I've done this multiple times. I just don't like to admit that I'm wrong when I'm actually not wrong. CHANGE YOUR NAME? nope.

From where I'm standing, you didn't STOP ANTAGONIZING GIDEON.

You also didn't ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG WHEN YOU WERE WRONG.

YOU WERE WRONG.

REALIZE IT.

EVERYONE AGREES.

THIS IS NOT A CONSPIRACY AGAINST YOU.

YOU WERE TOTALLY AND IMPERIALLY WRONG. THEY PUT YOUR PICTURE IN THE NEW WEBSTERS DICTIONARY INSTEAD OF THE WORD "WRONG" AND THE TERM "KNOWS ALL" HAS BEEN REPLACED WITH THE DEFINITION OF "IS AN IDIOT" BECAUSE OF YOUR LEGENDARY FAILURE.

see what I mean, you never admit defeat. NEVER. You just go and go and go. and you won't even accept advice.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It really depends on what makes someone "better" than someone else. If you want to go based on exotic Force abilities, Jacen is pretty much second to none. Political abilities, then I guess Palpatine beats him and thats about it.

If we want to go with a 1v1 fight, then things become a lot different. There are a good number of people who could be argued as being on his level. Not saying they'd win, but it'd be up for debate at least.

He's Gideons list, which I mostly agree with.

Palpatine, Yoda, Kyp Durron, Vader, Dooku, Ragnos, Bane, Sadow, Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, UnuThul, Lord Nyax, and Galen Marek (Starkiller) have either demonstrated powers or, through canon statements, exhibit enough status to be on par or greater than Caedus.

To this, I'd add Nihilus, Sekot, Abeloth, Zannah, Traya, Revan, and of course Luke. Again, not saying it'd be a definite victory for any of these, but that they're enough to at least give him a good fight. Only people I'd say have an almost assured win would be Luke and DE Sidious.

Vader canonically < Caedus
Kyp canonically (well, virtually canonically) < Caedus

One Free Man
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, go watch Rogue Jedi in MVF and the entire Game versus forum post. Then do the exact oppposite of what they do. STFU RJ is simply hilarious.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by One Free Man

see what I mean, you never admit defeat. NEVER. You just go and go and go. and you won't even accept advice.

Actually, I have. I can provide examples if you really want them.

One Free Man
Never when it counts. Also, change your name. That's extremely important.

SWFan4Life
Has anyone else ever considered the significance of the final duel between Darth Caedus and Jaina Solo? In just 10 years (30 ABY - 40 ABY), the Yuuzhan Vong prophecy of the Twin Gods fighting with the fate of the galaxy in the balance came true.

I remember in the NJO that the Yuuzhan Vong were nuts about pitting Jaina and Jacen Solo against each other, as many Vong believed they were the manifestations of the Trickster goddess and the Slayer god (or whichever other deity was her brother).

After I put LOTF Invincible down, it just hit me that this battle between Jaina and her brother would happen in a much more muted fashion (i.e. Jaina wasn't really in the spotlight as she had been in NJO, and I think the eyes of the galaxy were expecting Luke to stop Caedus, not Jaina).

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by SWFan4Life
Has anyone else ever considered the significance of the final duel between Darth Caedus and Jaina Solo? In just 10 years (30 ABY - 40 ABY), the Yuuzhan Vong prophecy of the Twin Gods fighting with the fate of the galaxy in the balance came true.

I remember in the NJO that the Yuuzhan Vong were nuts about pitting Jaina and Jacen Solo against each other, as many Vong believed they were the manifestations of the Trickster goddess and the Slayer god (or whichever other deity was her brother).

After I put LOTF Invincible down, it just hit me that this battle between Jaina and her brother would happen in a much more muted fashion (i.e. Jaina wasn't really in the spotlight as she had been in NJO, and I think the eyes of the galaxy were expecting Luke to stop Caedus, not Jaina).

huh no expression

That never really connected for me. Did the Vong have any consequences predicted?

And are the Vong still in the Galaxy in some fashion?

Nephthys
They're....... somewhere in the galaxy. I know they've been mentioned/visited by someone.

Lord Lucien
Aren't they chillin on Zonama Sekot?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Aren't they chillin on Zonama Sekot?

Some of them are.

SWFan4Life
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
huh no expression

That never really connected for me. Did the Vong have any consequences predicted?

And are the Vong still in the Galaxy in some fashion?

Consequences? I will have to read through some of the texts.

The Vong indeed remain in the galaxy (or at least, near) for a long time after that, and are actually a big catalyst to future events in the galaxy (Legacy Comics...that's all I will say).

SWFan4Life
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Aren't they chillin on Zonama Sekot?

Hehe Yea! Zonama Sekot is like non-stop Woodstock 24/7. Why leave?

truejedi
Also: He MUST change his AVATAR. MUST. It makes people forget who you are briefly.

Gideon
ben222
I agree with you , I am going to explain my opinion :

You don't do it nearly as well as you think you do.



confused



Since Luke "dominating" the duel has nothing to do with what I said, I'll be courteous give you 24 hours to provide evidence to show that Caedus did not contend or harm Luke. If, at the end of that time, you haven't provided such evidence, then I will consider this an automatic concession on your part and you'll honor the terms of this discussion by never contacting me directly again.

Hurry up with it.



You mean the environment? Which experienced and skilled Jedi and Sith are often shown exploiting to their advantage? You don't say.



You clearly haven't read the damn book. Do you remember how the fight starts? Luke was going to sneak up and ninjakill Caedus. It wasn't even supposed to be a duel; there was no adequate time for preparation on Caedus's part, unlike most traditional duels. Luke was clearly in a state of battle rage, which would undoubtably enhance his lethality in combat.

Battle rage + an unfair sneak assault before the fight begins = an advantage for Luke.

Ben's stupidity has nothing to do with this fight, since he attacked Caedus as well. A second party intervening on Luke's behalf? Another advantage for Luke.



roll eyes (sarcastic)

I can tell already that my interest in discussing this subject with you is fading fast; you demonstrate no relevant knowledge of the source material. In their first duel in Tempest, Luke was critically wounded and disarmed. If you'd like, I can post the relevant text. She clearly kicked his ass, demonstrating superior tactical acumen and skill in combat, for all of his vaunted power.

The fact that he won the duel is irrelevant; it ignores the context. It's rather like saying that Sidious won against Yoda, ignoring the fact that Yoda demonstrated powers and skill that were clearly equal to the Emperor's own.

Context: there was a duel, she fought harder and smarter, he was disarmed and wounded -- the duel ended there; the fight was won when he grabbed a blaster and shot her. Where was that awesome power then?

Their second duel (in Exile?) was a draw; their third duel was won simply because Lumiya lost her fvcking footing. That's it. He didn't disarm her or annihilate her with a dazzling display of skill.



WRONG!!1!

Luke believed that the "no name Sith Lord" was on par with the two of them as swordsmen, not as a Force user. When you tell me how resisting telekinesis is a product of swordsmanship, I'll concede.

But you can't, so I won't.

24 hours to prove your case. Get on it.

mattatom
Wan't that just a tad harsh Gideon?

One Free Man
I liked the kevin spacey bit. shifty

masterfully done.

Gideon
mattatom
Wan't that just a tad harsh Gideon?

I only tolerate the overactive egos of newcomers when they're right. From the wording of his posts, he came off with wild accusations that I am the anti-Luke and then asserted that my points were entirely without merit.

He was wrong.

It's the same sort of problem HWKN demonstrates that so many people find annoying; he's unnecessarily pretentious and makes arguments about things of which he has no knowledge. The 'Empire' thread is littered with examples of him contending "NO SIDIOUS CANT DO THAT," invariably followed by "OH... WELL WHAT SOURCE?"

If you don't know what you're talking about, you need to be courteous and, if not downright submissive, at least reserved with the people who do.

You'll notice that I don't leap into a thread throwing claims and arguments left and right until I know what's going on.

But I am a master of ass covering.

One Free Man
That's the problem really, hewhoknowshowtouseastrawincatheterfetishplay never outgrew that ego problem.

mattatom
Though occasionally he can be right, or at least on the right track. E.g. Mara/Vader thread.

Gideon
Yeah, well I've concluded that all he wants is attention. So I'm truly done with his bullshit until he makes a public apology to the forum for his stupidity.

No moar convo's 'bout him. He duz not eggzist.

mattatom
I'm like Luke. I can still sense good in him. no expression

One Free Man
That's why I took him off of ignore, and tried to give him "how not to be an *******" counseling, but he waved it off. He honestly wants to come off as a retarded gay douche.

Gideon
mattatom
I'm like Luke. I can still sense good in him. no expression

...But are you willing to let me electrocute you nearly to death to prove your point?

'cuz i'll make it hurt

One Free Man
NEARLY? oh, god dammit, Gideon. I had high hopes that you could do better than that...

Hewhoknowsall
@Gideon

At least I didn't blatantly lie like you did. You claimed that I said that Luke could "solo the Empire", but I didn't. I said that Luke + NJO Council could assassinate Sidious, and then the GFFA AND THE REST OF THE FOTJ GALAXY mops up the now-fragmented Empire.

So it isn't just Luke. It's Luke + NJO Council + the GFFA/rest of the FOTJ galaxy.

If I really am I wrong as you claim, you shouldn't have to lie to support your assertion.

Oh, and a while back I DID make an apology thread...and a lot of you laughed at it.

One Free Man
I'm seriously
Considering posting in
haiku in all threads.

One Free Man
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Gideon

At least I didn't blatantly lie like you did. You claimed that I said that Luke could "solo the Empire", but I didn't. I said that Luke + NJO Council could assassinate Sidious, and then the GFFA AND THE REST OF THE FOTJ GALAXY mops up the now-fragmented Empire.

So it isn't just Luke. It's Luke + NJO Council + the GFFA/rest of the FOTJ galaxy.

If I really am I wrong as you claim, you shouldn't have to lie to support your assertion. Little retard boy
should shut the **** up or else
i might kill his ass.

Hewhoknowsall
@One Free Man

If you were to actually read the posts that you quote, you'd realize that I'm RIGHT; Gideon DID blatantly lie.

One Free Man
Originally posted by Hewhoknowswhattodoifhecomesacrossaninternetpredato
r naughty
@One Free Man

If you were to actually read the posts that you quote, you'd realize that I'm RIGHT; Gideon DID blatantly lie. What it comes down to
is the key players would be
Sidious and Luke.

Sidious would just
easily knock off the rest
of the jedi guys,

Just like when he fought
three comparatively more
skilled enemies in

His nice office on
coruscaunt, you cock juggling
turd thief [email protected] noob.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by One Free Man
What it comes down to
is the key players would be
Sidious and Luke.

Sidious would just
easily knock off the rest
of the jedi guys,

Just like when he fought
three comparatively more
skilled enemies in

His nice office on
coruscaunt, you cock juggling
turd thief [email protected] noob.

That has virtually nothing to do with my post that you quoted.

One Free Man
you said that he lied
but ultimately you are
grasping at the straws

anyway. It always
Comes down to the strongest Vs.
Sidious because

Sidious takes weak
ones out first, like he did on
coruscaunt, silly.

One Free Man
anyway who gives
a shit your argument is
so far fetched that you

look so stupid when
you try and defend them and
you're condescending.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by One Free Man
you said that he lied
but ultimately you are
grasping at the straws

anyway. It always
Comes down to the strongest Vs.
Sidious because

Sidious takes weak
ones out first, like he did on
coruscaunt, silly.

Are you referring to if Luke using Battle Meld w/the NJO Council confronted Sidious?

Luke and the NJO Council would win in a stomp. Sidious as of ROTJ will have been out of practice with a saber, so he couldn't pull off that speed blitz feat from ROTS.

One Free Man
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Are you referring to if Luke using Battle Meld w/the NJO Council confronted Sidious?

Luke and the NJO Council would win in a stomp. Sidious as of ROTJ will have been out of practice with a saber, so he couldn't pull off that speed blitz feat from ROTS. And I am very sure
that you can provide proof and
you are not bullshitting.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Vader canonically < Caedus
Kyp canonically (well, virtually canonically) < Caedus

Miss the part when I said, "Not saying they'd win, but it'd be up for debate at least."

Pay more attention next time.

One Free Man
Originally posted by One Free Man
And I am very sure
that you can provide proof and
you are not bullshitting.
roll eyes (sarcastic) Odd this strange silence
that follows when I demand
proof or evidence.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by One Free Man
Odd this strange silence
that follows when I demand
proof or evidence.

I'm busy right now. I'll respond soon.

One Free Man
I'm sure that you are
I have to go somewhere I
have no time left for

YOUR IDIOCY
today so im going to
go and obtain FUN

Hewhoknowsall
Ok. So it appears that you wish for proof that Luke + the entire NJO Council > Sidious, which is obvious, since by this point in time Luke alone > ROTJ Sidious but here goes:

Luke was able to station himself so that even a supermassive black hole couldn't move him. Therefore, Sidious's TK wouldn't work on Luke. If Sidious tries Force lightning on any of them, the rest just blitz Sidious.

So Luke and the NJO Council could defeat Sidious with Force attacks alone, but, even if they somehow can't, in a saber fight ROTJ Sidious would lose badly to this team. ROTJ Sidious was out of practice in terms of lightsaber combat for quite a while, and he's facing a huge number of Jedi Masters, one of which is his superior, all using a Battle Meld. Luke back in TUF using Battle Meld with just Jaina and Jacen was moving so fast that it appeared as if he was wielding 20 lightsabers at once - take into account the fact that Luke is far stronger by this point in the SW mythos and that he's using Battle Meld with the entire NJO Council, and Luke and the Council easily beat Sidious.

truejedi
Originally posted by Gideon



Battle rage + an unfair sneak assault before the fight begins = an advantage for Luke.



As we have talked about before: Caedus has NO EXCUSE for not being ready. He was told TWICE by Ben that Luke was right behind him. TWICE.

The term battle rage is interesting, considering that in Allies, Ben states he had never "seen his father fight this hard." That means, apparently, Luke had to have been holding something back against Caedus. Clearly not visible from the text in Inferno, but that is why we get more source materials. While it might have been canon previously to say Luke was going all out in that fight, we now have source material that casts doubt on that fact.




Luke turned down a chance to kill Caedus early in the fight(while Caedus was entangled in the Vong vine thingy) because Ben was already yelling about killing Caedus.

Caedus later states that he was only lived through that duel because Ben was there.

(not to mention BEN was the one who GAVE AWAY luke's ninja attack. Without the knowledge of WHAT was happening, I have serious misgivings that he would have realized what that snap-hiss meant fast enough to save his life at the beginning of that fight.)







Lost her footing after being driven straight back to the edge of cliff because Luke was DOMINATING her.





When I see ANYONE else reach out with the force and keep a ship from taking off, I'll admit ANYTHING Luke did in that book was weak. Yoda didn't even try, even though Dooku was still in the hanger when the danger to Kenobi and Anakin was passed.

Sidious didn't even try when the entire Alliance leadership was leaving the deathstar after killing Galan Marek.

Vader didn't try on Hoth, despite being in the room as the Falcon took off.


oh, and big grin

go easy on my new friend Ben. He just doesn't understand how things work yet, and he was making the same observations as I did in the Caedus fight, just didn't put it as elegantly factually.

Love you long time Gideon.

Gideon
luv u 2

I'm going to annihilate you in a truly epic manner, though. :/

Gideon
TJ
As we have talked about before: Caedus has NO EXCUSE for not being ready. He was told TWICE by Ben that Luke was right behind him. TWICE.

roll eyes (sarcastic)



You mean where Jacen was under the impression he was hallucinating?



...Or where Caedus attempts to seek out the cloaked Luke through the Force and does not find any credible evidence of his presence?



...Or where Jacen identified the possibility that it could simply be a distraction concocted by Ben in order to summon a vibrodagger? Three separate occasions where Jacen doesn't observe any facts or evidence to conclude that Skywalker would somehow be there. This hardly constitutes valid preparation time.

"Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang."

^ Doesn't sound like a particularly courteous or generous way to start a duel.



You're right, it is interesting:

"Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his BATTLE RAGE -- only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side." Inferno, Chapter 20, sixth paragraph (I'm using ze online text).



Sorry, I didn't quite make all of that out? Your words were garbled by the sound of you choking on your own desperation. Luke clearly had to fight Abeloth on a different level than his fight with Caedus, since Abeloth was a greater threat. It was desperation that drove Luke to fight this hard against Abeloth, not restraint. There's a difference: nothing suggests that Luke was restraining the use of his considerable skill against Caedus in combat.

Nice try.





Interesting turn of events. We see further proof that Skywalker acknowledges that he hardly had this fight in hand (he seemed rather eager to end it due to the extent of his own injuries) and that he hardly chose not to kill Jacen, he fell as a result of his injured leg and surprise.

But the most damning part? Skywalker was attacked despite the fact that Jacen was still trapped by the tendrils. Whether or not Luke had ignored Ben and continued his assault is irrelevant; Caedus didn't have to be free in order to be dangerous to Luke. What's to say that he wouldn't have dropped the light fixture anyway?

Absolutely nothing, since Luke had warning from Ben and his own precognition to understand that the light fixture was about to be dropped and still couldn't avoid it.



:eyeroll:



smile



Ben "gave it away" more than once, TJ, but Caedus didn't believe him because he couldn't sense Skywalker through the Force. In fact, Caedus identified two very good reasons for Ben to be lying about Luke's presence.

Gideon
Nothing important here.



So she strikes at him and barely misses; he lunges and is driven back each time; and then he muses that he would also grow fatigued from this.

Ownage Meter? Zero.



Skywalker lunges forward, denying her the ability to correctly use her weapon to its maximum lethality; she gives ground, however, in order to gain some distance enough to use the lightwhip. Sounds an awful lot like Anakin and Obi-Wan's duel.

Ownage Meter? I'll give him three points for being clever enough to mitigate her ability to correctly use her weapon. But other than that, the narration says she's letting herself being forced back in an effort to maintain enough distance to use the lightwhip, not because he's in Badass mode.



She continues to give ground but blocks all of his strikes.

Ownage Meter? Zero.



Does the world "stalemate" suggest ownage on Luke's part? Grunts of exertion, you say?

Ownage Meter? Zero.



...And she loses her footing. No sign of superior skill or power here.

Ownage Meter? Zero.



That's not the point. The point is that if Luke is as powerful as you say he is (able to manipulate dovin basals and resist black holes without incident or effort), then he should be easily capable of immobilizing that shuttle.



You both are terrible at arguing this, though...

luv u 2 baby

One Free Man
Alright, let me get down to brass taX. I'm not going to do this in the haiku style, since i'm tired and you're bullshit.Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Ok. So it appears that you wish for proof that Luke + the entire NJO Council > Sidious, which is obvious, since by this point in time Luke alone > ROTJ Sidious but here goes: your breakdown of a self created scenario is bullshit, not proof, as shown before, quite obviously. He doesn't have to be alone, either.
you forget ROTJ Sidious also has vader, boba fett, Old Mara Jade, FOTJ mara jade, and all of his imperial guards, who are pretty damn epic by themselves. We're not talking everyone vs just sidious. I'm just saying, if you get to magically transport your infallible team into sidious's throne room somehow where they all gank him, I get to teleport sidious's team in.

Also, who says sidious has to lightning one of them? He could lightning all of them. He had a force storm that ravaged planet's surfaces for christ's sake. One cast of that and we've got a bunch of toasted jedi.
Says who? Saber skills might not eb with time, especially with a sith as advanced as sidious. He obviously hadn't whipped out the old saber since before 25-year-old anakin was a little boy, at least not onscreen and he blitzed every jedi except mace, and then proceded to toy with mace completely, then got up and fought yoda in the same god damn night. How do you think he's going to fare against Luke's pups?
so somehow, the title of jedi master means something, and somehow they all get there alive and unharmed through whatever security/troops guard the emperor. go on... I'm sorry, did I hear someone say "mace windu did the exact same thing only better and without meld?" cause he did. How do you know all the NJO can perform mind meld at once? hmmmmm??? is there some point where they do this?

Also, it's an ancient practice... why doesn't sidious do it with his home dogs if its so great?

Alright, so wait, what's the official scenario your going with? how do luke and company get there?

EDIT: also, meld doesn't make you hit faster, it makes more than one jedi move as one being, with perfect team work.

One Free Man
Also, if you so chose to reply to my post with more bullshit, please copy/paste your reply to the appropriate thread. We would not want to hijack this thread.

SWFan4Life
Based on the Lumiya v Luke duels discussed in this thread, it sure sounds like Lumiya is probably better than Sidious, since Luke is apparently not able to best Lumiya until "she loses her footing."

So is that the intention of the authors and George Lucas? To show that Lumiya was actually more powerful than Sidious? Or is it merely to show that Luke Skywalker may be extremely powerful, but NOT INVINCIBLE. I think the people are reading too much into the duels with Lumiya and giving her way too much credit....

In the first duel, Luke was distracted at one point by Mara's troubles against Alema. That's because of attachment, which Yoda warns against. That's hardly a reason to devalue Luke's power; it is more to criticize his decision to take a wife.

I'm not saying that Lumiya is weak, not by any means, but the way the texts (Sacrifice, and the other LOTF books) are being interpreted here, you make it sound like Lumiya is on par with Luke. So if Luke > Sidious, as a ton of folks believe, then Lumiya > Sidious?

To the Lumiya lovers, please clarify your thoughts on her power.

One Free Man
Originally posted by SWFan4Life
Based on the Lumiya v Luke duels discussed in this thread, it sure sounds like Lumiya is probably better than Sidious, since Luke is apparently not able to best Lumiya until "she loses her footing." A>B and B>C therefor A>C does not work. Don't even try it.
Or to prove that lukes a sap and sucks at life. Option C is always better.
"That doesn't count, i'm not ready" philosophy doesn't work here either. Everyone has distractions during combat.
No, not necessarily. Luke has more feats, but how does that compare to Sideous's abilities gathered and put into practice for 100 years?

Gideon
...

You people who are desperately attempting to wedge your heads neck deep into the dark abyss that is Luke Skywalker's bumhole ought to consider calming down and think about this rationally.

No one here is suggesting that Luke Skywalker is anything other than extremely powerful. No one. No one. NO ONE.



That makes a ton of sense.

Not.

First, Lumiya was one of Palpatine's agents (just like Mara Jade). Her fighting technique and her tactical acumen is largely due to the Emperor's training.

Second, Lumiya confessed to Jacen in the Legacy of the Force series that, like Vader, she lacks the capacity to use the Force to its greatest potential, even though her powers don't seem all that limited. Interestingly enough, she mentions "neither did , except compared to the Emperor, whose powers had no limit." This is tantamount to an admission that she isn't on par with the Emperor.

Third, unlike Vader, Lumiya has not been established to be remarkably powerful in the Force. She's just a highly trained fighter with excellent technique.

Being able to challenge and defeat Luke Skywalker does not necessarily mean that she's on par with the Emperor, but if you'd like to make your case, feel free to do so.



Well, since I left my portable mind reader in my dorm room, I couldn't tell you. My guess? The authors and editing team are trying to keep Luke from becoming a walking Marty Stu.



Well, I can tell you on behalf of all the other Lumiya Lovers, we care a great deal what you think.

I'm being sarcastic, as Lumiya Lovers are prone to do.



no expression

You shame your idol with your inability to see the point, which is thus: Skywalker losing to Lumiya or being unable to stop an escaping shuttle isn't proof (or intended to be proof) that he sucks. It's intended to prove that the guy clearly isn't capable of unleashing WTFLOLuber telekinesis capable of manipulating dovin basals or resisting black holes whenever he feels like it. Otherwise he would have clearly been able to crush Lumiya like a tin can and likewise to the shuttle.



The texts are being interpreted factually, as judged by the fact that you haven't bothered to refute the points made. You just don't like the conclusions.

No one cares. Make your case or don't, but for God's sake, don't whine.



...

Is HWKN some sort of e-solar flare to the rest of the Retard Kingdom? Your invasion of this noble establishment will not succeed!



She's a Force user of seemingly moderate capability with considerable technique and training?

One Free Man
Originally posted by Gideon
...

You people who are desperately attempting to wedge your heads neck deep into the dark abyss that is Luke Skywalker's bumhole ought to consider calming down and think about this rationally.

No one here is suggesting that Luke Skywalker is anything other than extremely powerful. No one. No one. NO ONE.
*Raises hand*

confused

sad

*puts hand down*

schmoll

SWFan4Life
Gideon, I'm not disagreeing with your point that Luke can't ALWAYS be uber TK, Majin Buu, super saiyan, etc.

The assumptions I made in my post are just based on everyone's discussion on Lumiya v. Luke.

And contrary to you, I actually DO care what folks like you think about the EU, because that's why I joined the forums. I enjoy reading people's opinions on these things.

And factual texts are still interpreted differently by different people (i.e. Lumiya blocking all attacks, while continuing to lose ground = Ownage level for Luke is Zero.) Not necessarily, Lumiya is retreating...(but again this is my view compared to others, which I do enjoy reading)

And don't compare me to that HKWhatever lol.

Gideon
Then keep your arguments grounded in ze facts, please.

Or suffer the wrath of Cthlulu.

SWFan4Life
Lol ok. The 'Lumiya > Sidious' was meant as a critique of the discussions I was reading in this thread (my own attempt at sarcasm). I wasn't trying to make a case for the Lum > Sid.

Sidious - deceived the galaxy, ruled until his right-hand man pussed out because of his son.

Lumiya - was a hand, and ADMITTED Sidous' superiority.

And yea, Luke is obviously one of my favorite characters. I do like seeing his shortfalls throughout the series. After all, it would be silly to make him look like some Superman, or god.

No offense meant to HWKN from my previous post.

One Free Man
Originally posted by SWFan4Life

No offense meant to HWKN from my previous post. as you insult him lol

SWFan4Life
Originally posted by One Free Man
as you insult him lol

LOL, no really, I am just a SW fan for life, that's all! Just don't want to be compared to others!

One Free Man
hewhoknowsall is the name he chose for himself.

Hewhoknowsnothing is what hwkn stands for, and is the name given to him by gideon.

hewhoknowshowtoperformsomegraphicandhomoeroticact is the name I have given to him.

each of the latter are far more appropriate.

ben222
Originally posted by Gideon
You don't do it nearly as well as you think you do.
Since Luke "dominating" the duel has nothing to do with what I said, I'll be courteous give you 24 hours to provide evidence to show that Caedus did not contend or harm Luke. If, at the end of that time, you haven't provided such evidence, then I will consider this an automatic concession on your part and you'll honor the terms of this discussion by never contacting me directly again.
Hurry up with it.



????????
It is a threat?

Originally posted by Gideon
You mean the environment? Which experienced and skilled Jedi and Sith are often shown exploiting to their advantage? You don't say.

their third duel was won simply because Lumiya lost her fvcking footing. That's it. He didn't disarm her or annihilate her with a dazzling display of skill.


What you say has no sense gideon, you are very very ambiguous.
Indeed, according to you, environment isn't a advantage, but you think that luke wins against lumiya because of environment.



confused confused confused confused confused

ben222
Originally posted by Gideon
I only tolerate the overactive egos of newcomers when they're right. From the wording of his posts, he came off with wild accusations that I am the anti-Luke and then asserted that my points were entirely without merit.

It is the truth, your points are entirely without merit.

Gideon
Thanks for not responding to the entirety of my argument.

I accept your concession.

Board Walker
So much I have learned from this thread, I'm curious about this DE sidious.

were sidious non contaminated yothful clone bodies just as powerful as his original body?

How good was he with a lightsaber in de?

Also I saw a pictur of him from a comic, and he is dressed in apearel that looks like ninja garb, was this what he wore?

Can a jedi/sith tk crush some one in a saber fight? Like raise their hand and crush their neck killing them? If so why do they not do this! And how powerful would someone need to be to do this to yoda? Could de sidious do it if the plot of not being ridiculous didn't stand in his way?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by One Free Man
Alright, let me get down to brass taX. I'm not going to do this in the haiku style, since i'm tired and you're bullshit. your breakdown of a self created scenario is bullshit, not proof, as shown before, quite obviously. He doesn't have to be alone, either.
you forget ROTJ Sidious also has vader, boba fett, Old Mara Jade, FOTJ mara jade, and all of his imperial guards, who are pretty damn epic by themselves. We're not talking everyone vs just sidious. I'm just saying, if you get to magically transport your infallible team into sidious's throne room somehow where they all gank him, I get to teleport sidious's team in.



And since when are they all going to be in Sidious's throne room other than maybe the Imperial Guards; and Yoda knocked out two Red Guards (like Royal Guards) with a glance. Why would, say, Boba Fett be in the throne room with Sidious, and why would Boba be a significant threat to this team?



Except that it was DE Sidious that had a Force storm that powerful, not ROTJ Sidious. And Luke can, based on his feats, block Sidious's Force lightning. Sidious's Force lightning will also be weaker if he has to spread it out among several powerful Jedi Masters. And Luke and the Council could just TK Sidious the instant the barge in.



When you don't use a skill, you lose it. This is natural, regardless of whether or not you're a Force user. That is why ANH Obi Wan was weaker than ROTS Obi Wan, a thing that is stated in the book Star Wars: Death Star.



1. Grand Master Luke > any incarnation of Sidious in lightsaber combat. Unless if you show me a time where Sidious defeats thousands of troops the level of YV warriors.

2. Luke has used Battle Meld with Kyp and Kyle before, as well as Jaina and Jacen; I'll admit that I don't have evidence with me to say that he can use it with as many people as the entire Council, but if not, they can have separate Battle Melds. Luke without Battle Meld is still > Sidious.



I don't remember any situation in which Sidious had the opportunity to do this, nor am I aware of showing in which Sidious actually knows how to use Battle Meld.



Luke either cloaks the team (he's done this before) or uses illusions to disguise their identity (he's done this before). He uses the Force to bypass electronic security (many Jedi have done this before). They bust into the throne room and pwn Sidious.

Which is an advantage of Luke and the Council. Sidious will face a very coordinated attack from 12+ Jedi Masters, one of which is Sidious's superior.

Nephthys
You do realise that he's been banned for a solid month right? So don't go expecting an answer. erm

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
You do realise that he's been banned for a solid month right? So don't go expecting an answer. erm

lol yeah, I didn't notice that until after I posted my rebuttal.

Gideon
BW
So much I have learned from this thread, I'm curious about this DE sidious.

k



No, none of his clone bodies were equipped to handle his dark side essence for long.



He defeated Luke on Byss and, shortly afterwards, lost to Luke aboard the Eclipse (under suspicious circumstances).

I wouldn't say he's necessarily any better than what he used to be, but I suppose he could have trained.



prolly



Force barriers and shields that trained Force users have around their persons at all times. It takes concentrated effort/superior power to breach one.

Eminence
In this instance it isn't lethal, but I hadn't been aware that someone other than Luke had ever used the power at all.

Gideon
Eminence
In this instance it isn't lethal, but I hadn't been aware that someone other than Luke had ever used the power at all.

Easily the second or third best novel of the NJO. It goes onto suggest that Jacen could have made it lethal.

Eminence
I took this to mean he would need the Force-lightning to kill them.

If there's a pertinent passage later in the book, I would've missed it; I just Ctrl+F'd "green" after looking at his page on Wiki.

Gideon
E
I took this to mean he would need the Force-lightning to kill them.



The phrasing indicates a choice: Jacen had not killed them and the narrative offers an explanation: the lightning's "murderous form" was a dark side weapon. His decision to use the mild form was a moral one, clearly not because he lacked the ability to wield it like Luke did.

Board Walker
So is the lightening jacen did rare or different from the lightening most sith use?

SWFan4Life
Originally posted by Gideon
The phrasing indicates a choice: Jacen had not killed them and the narrative offers an explanation: the lightning's "murderous form" was a dark side weapon. His decision to use the mild form was a moral one, clearly not because he lacked the ability to wield it like Luke did.

Question, Gideon. Does the Force Lightning have to be more intense than usual to truly be lethal to the Vong because of their stripped Force nature? I recall reading throughout the NJO, that whenever Jedi would use Force powers against them, it would be muddled or dampened.

However, I do recall the brief instance in Star by Star when Jaina had briefly fallen to the dark after Anakin Solo's death, and punched a hole through a Vong with Force Lightning. It seems that though Force TK and such were dampened against the Vong, Force Lightning could still work (maybe because it was the Force materialized into physical energy?)

Lord Lucien
That's an oxymoron, n'est-ce pas?

SWFan4Life
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's an oxymoron, n'est-ce pas?

Which part?

Eminence
Gideon
The phrasing indicates a choice: Jacen had not killed them and the narrative offers an explanation: the lightning's "murderous form" was a dark side weapon. His decision to use the mild form was a moral one, clearly not because he lacked the ability to wield it like Luke did.The passage does not specify that the green lightning is ever murderous; it says the "murderous form of lightning" is the dark side weapon.

This is his use of "the murderous form of lightning":


There's no indication that that is akin to the "brilliant emerald fire" he uses here; to the contrary, it appears to be simply be a powerful manifestation of traditional Sith lightning, and it's probably what Jacen was referring to. He could have killed them with that lightning instead of simply incapacitating them with the "blaze of fire."

I'm not suggesting that Jacen would never be able to kill with the technique, and given that he's only nineteen and this is the first time he's ever used the power, it really isn't even to his detriment.

Gideon
I'm really not sure what you're getting at, in all seriousness.



In the passage from Destiny's Way that you provided, the "brilliant emerald fire that lanced from his fingertips" is identified as a variant of Force lightning, not an entirely different technique. The author identifies it in the next sentence as such -- "the Force lightning threw the first rank of Yuuzhan Vong back into their comrades."

You're splitting hairs: the author identifies it as a form of Force lightning, not a similar technique nor a related technique, but the same technique.

Dr McBeefington
I believe its the same lightning as PLO Koon's.

Gideon
DS
I believe its the same lightning as PLO Koon's.

I've heard that before, but I haven't seen evidence of it.

Eminence
Gideon
I'm really not sure what you're getting at, in all seriousness.
You said this:


I assumed the "it" you were referring to was the specific attack I brought up, the "brilliant emerald fire." I believe the narration was distinguishing between the traditional, dark side lightning - hence the description of what he could have killed them with as a "murderous... dark side weapon" - and whatever it is he hit them with in its stead, rather than implying that it's the "emerald fire" that he could have killed them with in a murderous fashion.

The two don't have to be completely different techniques for that conclusion to be valid.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
I've heard that before, but I haven't seen evidence of it. Wasn't plo's described as emerald or bright or another synonym?

Gideon
Electric Judgment.

SWFan4Life
True that, I think the books/comics/works have only defined TWO instances of Electric Judgment, Plo Koon and Luke. Jacen's Force Lightning in Destiny's Way wasn't defined as such. Please correct me if there are more instances that were clearly defined.

Gideon
Eminence
I assumed the "it" you were referring to was the specific attack I brought up, the "brilliant emerald fire." I believe the narration was distinguishing between the traditional, dark side lightning - hence the description of what he could have killed them with as a "murderous... dark side weapon" - and whatever it is he hit them with in its stead, rather than implying that it's the "emerald fire" that he could have killed them with in a murderous fashion.

The two don't have to be completely different techniques for that conclusion to be valid.

I was; the narration clearly refers to the "brilliant emerald fire" as Force lightning; what Jacen uses is the same thing that the Hidden One uses (which was brilliant white lightning) and the same thing that Emperor Palpatine uses (purplish) and the same thing that Count Dooku uses (blue). The color might designate the level of intensity or lethality, but it's the same technique.

That Jacen didn't use the green Force lightning to kill (as Luke did in the Unifying Force) seems to be because of a personal decision to restrain himself. What I was saying was that it's impressive that, at that stage, nothing indicates he lacked the capability to use the technique as it was used in the Unifying Force.

Gideon
SWFan4Life
True that, I think the books/comics/works have only defined TWO instances of Electric Judgment, Plo Koon and Luke. Jacen's use in Destiny's Way wasn't defined as such. Please correct me if there are more instances that were clearly defined.

Nowhere (to my knowledge) is Luke's "green spark" technique ever called Electric Judgment.

SWFan4Life
Originally posted by Gideon
Nowhere (to my knowledge) is Luke's "green spark" technique ever called Electric Judgment.

You beat me to it! I was just confirming my source about Luke in Unifying Force. The book doesn't define it, I thought it had, only Plo Koon.

I think most fans assume so because EL is thought to be the light-side version of Force Lightning. When Jacen used FL in Destiny's Way, he was using it from the dark side, I recall.

SWFan4Life
I have heard this mentioned before: that subsequent generations of Skywalkers (or Solos, basically the descendents of Anakins Skywalker) become more and more powerful. This has been conjectured by many with the advent of the Legacy comics, due to Cade Skywalker's healing ability.

Question: Was Jacen Solo's Force potential the same as Luke's, or greater? Can anybody cite any texts in the EU that indicates this phenomenom?

Eminence
Gideon
I was; the narration clearly refers to the "brilliant emerald fire" as Force lightning; what Jacen uses is the same thing that the Hidden One uses (which was brilliant white lightning) and the same thing that Emperor Palpatine uses (purplish) and the same thing that Count Dooku uses (blue). The color might designate the level of intensity or lethality, but it's the same technique.

That Jacen didn't use the green Force lightning to kill (as Luke did in the Unifying Force) seems to be because of a personal decision to restrain himself. What I was saying was that it's impressive that, at that stage, nothing indicates he lacked the capability to use the technique as it was used in the Unifying Force. You are forgiven.

And do not address me as "E" again.

Ever.

Having to call you "G" would be completely unfair. It would imply that you're cool, and there would be no way to avoid it under that particular system of address.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Gideon
I was; the narration clearly refers to the "brilliant emerald fire" as Force lightning; what Jacen uses is the same thing that the Hidden One uses (which was brilliant white lightning) and the same thing that Emperor Palpatine uses (purplish) and the same thing that Count Dooku uses (blue). The color might designate the level of intensity or lethality, but it's the same technique.

That Jacen didn't use the green Force lightning to kill (as Luke did in the Unifying Force) seems to be because of a personal decision to restrain himself. What I was saying was that it's impressive that, at that stage, nothing indicates he lacked the capability to use the technique as it was used in the Unifying Force. I often wondered if the color and intensity were loosely based on the electromagnetic spectrum but Palpatine's gay lightning is superior to the while lightning and Luke's green lightning is superior to all. Also I was alluding to the fact that the description of jacens lightning was similar to electric judgment.

Gideon
Luke's lightning is superior to who?

truejedi
Was Luke's lightning in The Unifying Force referred to specifically as green? If so, then its safe to assume that Jace was using at least a similar attack.

Gideon
TJ
Was Luke's lightning in The Unifying Force referred to specifically as green? If so, then its safe to assume that Jace was using at least a similar attack.

Ya. Green sparks.

SithAce_1
Didn't Ben use force lightning on Zoist? I think I remember he used it when he was unarmed and a little scared too. Or was it a young Anakin same senario?

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Board Walker
I thought sidious was an amazing duelist with a saber?

He was. It's just Luke is better.

Shoes
Except if Palpatine melts his saber.

Board Walker
How powerful was Darth Caedus in the force?

If he and sidious were to fight purely with using the force and all exoteric/exotic force powers they have at their disposel who would win?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Board Walker
How powerful was Darth Caedus in the force?

If he and sidious were to fight purely with using the force and all exoteric/exotic force powers they have at their disposel who would win?

Darth Caedus was stated have a greater command of the Force than Darth Vader.

In a Force fight between Darth Sidious and Darth Caedus Darth Sidious would likely win due to his insanely powerful Force lightning.

Board Walker
Doesn't caedus have extremely high force resistance and lightening of his own?

Lord Lucien
No, he doesn't have the power to lighten anything. His lightsaber could, obviously, but not him. He may know a technique to counter gravity though, so that would also help.

truejedi
lawlz.

Board Walker
Caedus can do lightening...green fire...

gideongarner01
Darth Caedus is easily a top 5 Sith Lord most likely being top 3 in history.

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