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So, what do you think?

According to me :
1)FOTJ Luke skywalker
2)ROTS Yoda
3)DE Sidious
4)Darth Caedus
5)ROTS Mace Windu
6)Galen Marek
7)ROTS Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
8)Darth Bane
9)Darth Revan
10)FOTJKyp Durron

kas'im
maybe mace
sin drallig
anoon bondera

In no particular order: Mace, Sidious, Dooku, Obi-Wan, Luke, Yoda, 'teh zone' Anakin.... And the list goes on.

It's hard to put in a specific and accurate order. I prefer the tops of each era.

The Old Sith Wars have Kun and Ulic, and I think Nomi was pretty up there. Despite their technical ambiguity, Revan and Malak have got to be tops of their time. The Exile and the Triumvirate can f*ck off.

The New Sith Wars got Kas'im as numero uno, followed up by Bane. Zannah (I haven't read DoE yet) would be next. Other than that I can't think of any others that have detailed accounts of their saber prowess.

Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Sidious I'd call top tier for the PT. Anakin, Kenobi, Bulq, Drallig, Fisto, Kolar, Tinn, Maul, Ventress I'd all call the second tier of this era. Grievous too, to be fair.

The NJO has Luke, Caedus, Katarn, Horn, Jaina and if you wanna count his moment of lucidity, Rhysode. Lumiya was good too. I don't know where Mara stands.

Legacy only has a few names so far. Krayt is the best IMO.

MISC: Qui-Gon and Bondara were called the best of their generation circa TPM, but taken as a part of a whole they fall behind a good few of the others. Marek was pretty damned skilled too, but as he exists in his own quasi-era, he can go to hell. Not to mention much of his combat victories were a result of his Force powers more than his saber skills. And Ahsoka can go to hell too. Go to hell and die.

Palpatine , Dooku, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, Maul, Kas'im, Raskta Lsu, Mace Windu, Anoon Bondara, Vader, and Ulic Qel-Droma are contenders. Yoda, Bane, Obi-Wan, and several of the Jedi on the Clone Wars-era Council could be considered as well.

I'm not sure I'd rank Luke in here at all. His gift is raw power, and he's a comparatively dominant swordsman because he has so much of it; I don't know how much of a role classical skill actually plays in his victories.

General Grievous.

i'd list grievous as well actually.

and i really dont think the point of this thread is who are the best or most skilled duelists. thats why i didnt list people like yoda luke anakin etc. they may be the best and most skilled duelists of their eras but that doesnt mean they possess substantial technical skill or knowledge.

?

Granted, the little jackass is on ignore so I don't see his opening post (and I don't want to), but technical skill indicates those duelists with the most skill, not power or overall ability.

That is to say that Force powers have nothing to do with it, which is why Eminence was unsure of where to place Skywalker. The reason that he listed Anakin/Vader (and I'd agree), is likely because of the Rise of Darth Vader flat out states that Vader was able to borrow tons of techniques and maneuvers from pretty much every existing lightsaber form and combine it into an unorthodox, unique style.

If Force powers are to be ignored then I wouldn't rank Sidious in the Top 5 or even Top 10 at all. Every time he beat some opponent with the lightsaber it was due to his way superior speed (Force Speed, so it's actually a demonstration of superior Force powers) e.g. versus the trio in RotS or versus Maul in their practice sessions. However, once his speed became a non-factor like versus Yoda and Mace he just lost and coupled with the fact that he has forsaken his lightsaber for many years on several occasions just leads me to believe that his actual skill with the lightsaber is not really up there with the all-time greats.

@Top10: For me it would be about the same that Eminence listed (minus Sidious) with Kas'im probably being on top.

DrunknClockwork
If Force powers are to be ignored then I wouldn't rank Sidious in the Top 5 or even Top 10 at all.Sidious hand-trained Darth Maul, a skilled user of Juyo - a form that requires "a high-level master of multiple forms."

This is why specified that Palpatine could be considered extraodinarily skilled at some point, likely in his relative youth.

Originally posted by Eminence
Sidious hand-trained Darth Maul, a skilled user of Juyo - a form that requires "a high-level master of multiple forms."

This is why specified that Palpatine could be considered extraodinarily skilled at some point, likely in his relative youth.
But is it really enough to simply be a "high-level master of multiple forms" for making it into a Top 10 list of the most skilled lightsaber duelists of all time?
I didn't deny his skill but, like I said, for me it's just not enough to be up there with the top dogs.

DrunknClockwork
But is it really enough to simply be a "high-level master of multiple forms" for making in into a Top 10 list of the most skilled lightsaber duelists of all time?
I figured it would be enough to train a high-level master of multiple forms, but that line of thought introduces a slippery-slope factor: Plagueis trained Palpatine, etc.

I shall fink.

Edit: Hot damn, I left off Tyranus. No such list of candidates is complete without the Count.

Sidious' technical proficiency with a blade shouldn't even be in question. His effortless slaughtering of 3 of the finest Jedi in the order, tacked on to his duels with Mace (the master of Vaapad), Yoda (the master of Ataru), and Luke (the master of God knows what) should be proof enough of that. And, as was mentioned earlier, the fact that Sidious can take sole credit for training Maul from the ground up in the ways of lightsaber combat, should suffice as additional proof of his technical skill.



As for Grievous: even Mace admitted that he was proficient in all forms of lightsaber combat, including Vaapad (which he duplicated on the fly, mind you.) So yeah... Good choice.

No you didn't.

Galan007
Sidious' technical proficiency with a blade shouldn't even be in question. His effortless slaughtering of 3 of the finest Jedi in the order
In a display of vastly superior Force-speed. He didn't meticulously outduel them in a stunning display of skill, he cut them down before they knew what hit them.

Originally posted by Eminence



In a display of vastly superior Force-speed. He didn't meticulously outduel them in a stunning display of skill, he cut them down before they knew what hit them. M'kay, I can agree that he slew Agen and Saesee mainly with speed. However, he wtfpwned Kit while fighting Mace at the same time. That's skill, right thur.

You can't say someone who TRAINED someone with a lightsaber is as good as the student. Being able to teach doesn't put you up there.

Luke is referred to as the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy several times in LOTF, and again in FOTJ. Unless you are saying the entire galaxy is worse with a lightsaber than say in Bane's day... (something that would be EXTREMELY difficult to judge) (ROTS era was golden age of the Jedi, but we have no such assurances about the Bane Era)

That said, seeking the most skilled lightsaber duelists WITHOUT the force which makes the whole thread P O I N T L E S S since no one should CARE what they are like without the force.

1. Kas'im
2. Ulic Qel-Droma
3. Darth Bane
4. Exar Kun
5. Raskta Lu
6. Anoon Bondara
7. Sora Bulq
8. Darth Vader
9. Mace Windu
10. Qui-Gon Jinn

what is Jinn doing on that list, neb?

^

You're not that bothered that Eminence didn't throw Luke on the list, are you?



Quotez?

Cite your source plz.



This wouldn't be that hard to argue. Lightsaber technique is similar to Force technique in that it must be taught and refined by a well-versed Master or holocron or other repository of knowledge. I realize that Luke gives you the impression in the OT that swinging a lightsaber around really fast lawl makes you a decent duelist, but that's just bad choreography.

The Empire seized the vast majority of Force sensitive training equipment and knowledge banks, which could very well mean that the new Jedi Order's collective technique is nowhere near the level of refinement during the prequel trilogy.

Originally posted by truejedi
You can't say someone who TRAINED someone with a lightsaber is as good as the student. Being able to teach doesn't put you up there. True in some/most cases, but it seems like I remember Sidious saber-pwning Maul near the end of his training. So...

Originally posted by Gideon




This wouldn't be that hard to argue. Lightsaber technique is similar to Force technique in that it must be taught and refined by a well-versed Master or holocron or other repository of knowledge. I realize that Luke gives you the impression in the OT that swinging a lightsaber around really fast lawl makes you a decent duelist, but that's just bad choreography.

The Empire seized the vast majority of Force sensitive training equipment and knowledge banks, which could very well mean that the new Jedi Order's collective technique is nowhere near the level of refinement during the prequel trilogy.

You just misquoted me. I said Bane's day, since Ka'sim was making everyone's lists.

Originally posted by Gideon




Quotez?

Cite your source plz.




and seriously Gideon? I thought you read that series, why are you constantly asking for quotes out of it? : - ) Geez... you make this hard to do from flat on my back, where I prefer to stay at the moment.

That was for fun, ya, but the point still applies.

TJ
and seriously Gideon? I thought you read that series, why are you constantly asking for quotes out of it? : - ) Geez... you make this hard to do from flat on my back, where I prefer to stay at the moment.

cuz

Your mom does great work from flat on her back, I thought it would be genetic....

Jinn's more of a maybe though he has some pretty good accolades to his name. "A master duelist by any standard", "the most gifted lightsaber practitioner his instructor had trained in over four hundred years of teaching in the order", as well as being of such a class that the Anoon Bondara would think of Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu when doubtful of the claims that he was the best lightsaber practitioner in the order. Though I'm sure there's someone I'm missing as I know I never used to put him on these lists, but I'm thinking he maybe just makes it.

Yoda's probably on ze list as well; "though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with the lightsaber was still second to none on the Council" (Shadow Hunter).

truejedi
You can't say someone who TRAINED someone with a lightsaber is as good as the student. Being able to teach doesn't put you up there.






Just because we aren't likely to limit characters in a Versus thread to only their skill with a lightsaber doesn't mean it isn't an area worth our interest. The EU section doesn't exist purely to serve the whims of the SWVF.

Invincible: Pg. 132: "Luke was the one swordsman in the galaxy whom Caedus did not dare fight one-armed. "

Insinuation that he would fight any other swordsman in the galaxy.


(side note: What do you think was happening with Luke in that passage? It was never explained. Was luke projecting his face onto Jaina? Or was he a solid projection like Alema always did? I was never sure. Neither was Caedus.)

get you more as I find them.

ya,

But that is not indicative of Luke's technical skill, necessarily. As E points out, Luke's raw power is pretty much unrivaled, yes?

I always took that to mean his general level of ability with a lightsaber rather than strictly his technical ability, as it's basically saying that his skill was second to none despite having slowed down slightly over the years, which wouldn't really affect his technical ability.

Gideon
ya,

But that is not indicative of Luke's technical skill, necessarily. As E points out, Luke's raw power is pretty much unrivaled, yes?


Did you sign a contract with "ya" and the spoiler tags?

yano

I have to agree with Neb about Ulic being there. The dude was able to hold his own with a Jedi for a prolonged period of time with absolutely no connection to the Force (that I know of), which iirc has been explicitly stated to be all but impossible to do, so his technical skill and raw abilities must be immense.

In fact, wasn't Johun Othun (or whatevar) viewed as weaksauce, becuase he couldn't beat a non-force user even though he was described as rediculously skilled?

hmmm. off-topic again, but in Abyss when you and I have talked about "Luke hasn't eaten in days/ Luke was weak " You saw the paragraph at the beginning of chapter 28, right:

"He was sustaining himself only through the strength of teh Force. It was pouring into him from all sides, filling him with a blazing furnace of pain, devouring him even as it empowered him, burning him alive even as it saved him. Luke would have liked to think he had never been quite this tired, to believe he would never again find himself in circumstances quite this desperate. "

He goes on to say He HAD been in situations this desperate before, but the point it makes is he was NOT a full-strength Luke by any stretch of the imagination during his battle against the Sith strike team.

Originally posted by Gideon
ya,

But that is not indicative of Luke's technical skill, necessarily. As E points out, Luke's raw power is pretty much unrivaled, yes?

I see. Reading your post, and Faunus's, I think I misunderstood. So to judge these people WITHOUT the force, we have NOTHING to go on. Even Kas'sim was using the force in his duels. As was Dooku. As was Yoda. And Sidious, and DEFINITLY Mace. Kenobi used the force during his duel with Grievous.


Honestly, without the force,


Grievous beats all. Hands down, and easily.

truejedi
I see. Reading your post, and Faunus's, I think I misunderstood. So to judge these people WITHOUT the force, we have NOTHING to go on. Even Kas'sim was using the force in his duels. As was Dooku. As was Yoda. And Sidious, and DEFINITLY Mace. Kenobi used the force during his duel with Grievous.


Honestly, without the force,


Grievous beats all. Hands down, and easily.WTF.

I specifically mentioned that this thread needn't be pertinent to the versus forum to merit interest. The implication in that would be that this isn't a versus thread. We are simply attempting to come to some consensus regarding those with the greatest technical mastery of the lightsaber.

Once more, this is not a versus thread.

right. and obviously. and I asked how you expect to reach a consensus when you don't have ANY IDEA how any of these fare with a lightsaber without the force?

Somebody is grumpy this evening.

truejedi
right. and obviously. and I asked how you expect to reach a consensus when you don't have ANY IDEA how any of these fare with a lightsaber without the force?
The Force has no bearing on a static level of technical skill.

At all.

This is precisely why it is difficult to place individuals whose strength in the Force plays a more significant role than usual in their general ability with a lightsaber.

Edited for grumpiness.

I'd say Kas'im is the most technically skilled duelist in the SW mythos. Maybe Yoda is second due to the huge amount of time he'd have to train, as well as having trained numerous apprentices.

Originally posted by Eminence
The Force has no bearing on a static level of technical skill.

At all.

This is precisely why it is difficult to place individuals whose strength in the Force plays a more significant role than usual in their general ability with a lightsaber.


That's every single Jedi or Sith though. Now we only have grievous to consider.

facepalm

Marvel: Please explain ANY way we have of coming to consensus on an ability for which we have NO information: Such as how good any of these guys are without the force?

depends on your definition of "technical skill". going by gideon's reply to my last post in here, it seems that its a bit open to interpretation.

Mm, I wonder how Krayt would rate. He beat an early CW Anakin once, he took down four Imperial Knights with sabers, and his students are quite good too*, so he was presumably teaching them well.

Legacy, so hard to compare.

* Talon, for example, always beats Cade in saber, just loses when force powers get involved 'cause he's a Skywalker.

1. Anakin
2. Sideus
3. Dooku
4. Yoda
5. grevious
6. obi-wan
7. luke
8. mace windu.

Originally posted by Q99
Mm, I wonder how Krayt would rate. He beat an early CW Anakin once, I would hardly call that a 'beating'. All A'Sharad did was deliver a single kick to Padawan-Anakin's face, momentarily bringing him to his knees.

Personally, I'd say the best gauge we have to Krayt's technical skill was his battle on Tatooine with post-RotS Obi-Wan. During this battle, Krayt appeared to be more then a match for Kenobi in the saber department. In fact, Kenobi only 'won' the battle after he became visibly angry and ripped A'Sharad's arm off with a force attack.

...And based one the few saber-feats Krayt has accumulated since then, it's safe to assume his technical skills haven't diminished over the years.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I'd say Kas'im is the most technically skilled duelist in the SW mythos. Maybe Yoda is second due to the huge amount of time he'd have to train, as well as having trained numerous apprentices.

Ahem, windu?

Maul!

Originally posted by Galan007

Personally, I'd say the best gauge we have to Krayt's technical skill was his battle on Tatooine with post-RotS Obi-Wan. During this battle, Krayt appeared to be more then a match for Kenobi in the saber department. In fact, Kenobi only 'won' the battle after he became visibly angry and ripped A'Sharad's arm off with a force attack.

...And based one the few saber-feats Krayt has accumulated since then, it's safe to assume his technical skills haven't diminished over the years.

So yea, he deserves a spot on a top ten list, doing that well against Kenobi in sabers is no small feat.

I agree.

Can someone please list for me the people that Kas'im, Droma and Bondara beat of noteworthy skill in one v one duels. Narration only goes so far, just like "practice" only means so much. You might be the best practice player a team has (skills displayed in the Dojo) but come game time, you don't even make it off the bench.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Can someone please list for me the people that Kas'im, Droma and Bondara beat of noteworthy skill in one v one duels. Narration only goes so far, just like "practice" only means so much. You might be the best practice player a team has (skills displayed in the Dojo) but come game time, you don't even make it off the bench. Darth Bane, for one...

"Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him."

Originally posted by Galan007
Darth Bane, for one...

"Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him."

Didn't he go on to lose that fight though?

Also my friend... that is only ONE name opponent for the 3 I listed. Which is my point... narration and practice performances only go so far.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Didn't he go on to lose that fight though?

Also my friend... that is only ONE name opponent for the 3 I listed. Which is my point... narration and practice performances only go so far. Kas'im didn't 'lose' because he was an inferior swordsman...

"Bane hurled out a wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech. There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack. Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble."

But prior to that rather ghey death, Kas'im was tooling Bane as though he were a talentless feeb.

---

And I chose not to comment on Droma or Bondera because I wanted to emphasize Kas'im's awesomeness.

Also, Kas'im was unable to contend with the benefits Bane had from his superior Force power, which is why he was initially losing, or at least unil he brought out dual lightsabers, of which Bane had no idea how to fight. Technically speaking Bane had nothing on Kas'im.

Originally posted by truejedi
Invincible: Pg. 132: "Luke was the one swordsman in the galaxy whom Caedus did not dare fight one-armed. "

Insinuation that he would fight any other swordsman in the galaxy.


(side note: What do you think was happening with Luke in that passage? It was never explained. Was luke projecting his face onto Jaina? Or was he a solid projection like Alema always did? I was never sure. Neither was Caedus.)

get you more as I find them.

Wasn't Mara pretty much getting the better of him with saber, and only via force powers did he win?

I don't think Caedus was one of the most skilled for the list, just good skilled combined with a lot of power.

Originally posted by Q99
Wasn't Mara pretty much getting the better of him with saber, and only via force powers did he win?

I don't think Caedus was one of the most skilled for the list, just good skilled combined with a lot of power. Caedus won because he had a third hand.

No.

What the thread starter is trying to get is an idea of who in the mythos possesses top-tier technical skill with the lightsaber. The term as we use it connotes one's mastery of form, style or technique, classical, obscure or improvisational. It's a topic of interest to the thread starter in part because it isn't usually dictated by the trajectories of traditional duels in canon; those are generally determined in at least equal measure by a number of other factors, including psychological elements and variances in combatants' respective abilities in the Force.

Now:

Kas'im: Path of Destruction makes it perfectly clear that Kas'im's expertise in the methodology of lightsaber combat is unmatched in his time and nearly so in any other. His performance against Bane sets this in stone; despite Bane's tremendous advantage in Force-talent - not to mention age, strength, size, and familiarity with the environment - he has no defense for the alien style Kas'im utilizes in the end-stages of the duel. As this case relates to this particular thread, the fact that Bane was completely unfamiliar with the dual-blade style is not a mitigating factor in the value of the swordmaster's victory, it is proof of his complete dominance over Bane in the discipline whose cross-saga elites this thread is trying to identify.

Ulic Qel-Droma: Over a decade after being violently cut off from the Force, with his only practice in recent days being the relatively brief training of a Jedi child, he held his own against a bloodlusted Sylvar in combat.

That might not sound particularly impressive, but keep in mind a few things:

Ulic had spent the past ten years wandering the galaxy, spirit broken. Put on trial in front of the Senate for crimes against humanity - a charge that wouldn't be invoked again for another four thousand years - immediately before the assassination of the Chancellor by his Sith Master, one would imagine his standing with the galactic populace (a pilot who identifies him ends up shooting him in the back) indicated that he hadn't spent many of those years in anything resembling comfortable conditions. His health and athleticism had presumably suffered as a result, and he didn't have a lightsaber to practice with; the one he used against Sylvar was built one on Rhen Var by hand without the aid of the Force.

He had no connection to the Force. This means no heightened senses, enhanced reflexes, or superhuman strength, speed, and stamina. Nothing that makes a Jedi extraordinary.

His opponent had all those things, in addition to her species' inherently superior physique and the further enhancements of strength and speed provided by the battle rage she'd immersed herself in.

I'll point out that the best of non-Force-sensitive humans tend to compare rather poorly to even the most reserved of Jedi in close combat. Jango Fett, trained Mandalorian, genetically prime and the most dangerous bounty hunter in the galaxy, took on Obi-Wan with pistols, a rocket launcher, and starship cannons controlled by a third-party, and managed at best to run away. Another Mandalorian attacked Kenobi with a lightsaber during the Clone Wars. Despite putting up an impressive show, he was disarmed and humiliated. Entire sections of The Cestus Deception are dedicated to the awe Kit Fisto inspires in ARC troopers, the most gifted and effective soldiers in the clone army.

As of Redemption, Qel-Droma was no longer a physical specimen of any note. He had no power in the Force. The only thing that could possible have enabled him to withstand the assault of a murderous Jedi, someone quick enough to deflect blaster bolts and strong enough to beat down Massassi, is an enormous command of the lightsaber. His skill is completely unquestionable.

Someone with the relevant sources can tell you about Bondara. Again, given the issue we're dealing with in this thread narration is usually going to be at least as important as action. Don't forget that.

Originally posted by Galan007
Personally, I'd say the best gauge we have to Krayt's technical skill was his battle on Tatooine with post-RotS Obi-Wan. During this battle, Krayt appeared to be more then a match for Kenobi in the saber department. In fact, Kenobi only 'won' the battle after he became visibly angry and ripped A'Sharad's arm off with a force attack. hm, that sounds pretty impressive. might you have scans of this, sir?

Wow, Ulic is alot more skilled than I gave him credit for.

Originally posted by mattatom
Caedus won because he had a third hand.

Ok, yea, he doesn't get on the list

The New Jedi Order has a lot of skilled duelists, but the only one I'd definitely put on the top ten is Luke.

Originally posted by Eminence
No.

What the thread starter is trying to get is an idea of who in the mythos possesses top-tier technical skill with the lightsaber. The term as we use it connotes one's mastery of form, style or technique, classical, obscure or improvisational. It's a topic of interest to the thread starter in part because it isn't usually dictated by the trajectories of traditional duels in canon; those are generally determined in at least equal measure by a number of other factors, including psychological elements and variances in combatants' respective abilities in the Force.

Now:

Kas'im: Path of Destruction makes it perfectly clear that Kas'im's expertise in the methodology of lightsaber combat is unmatched in his time and nearly so in any other. His performance against Bane sets this in stone; despite Bane's tremendous advantage in Force-talent - not to mention age, strength, size, and familiarity with the environment - he has no defense for the alien style Kas'im utilizes in the end-stages of the duel. As this case relates to this particular thread, the fact that Bane was completely unfamiliar with the dual-blade style is not a mitigating factor in the value of the swordmaster's victory, it is proof of his complete dominance over Bane in the discipline whose cross-saga elites this thread is trying to identify.

Ulic Qel-Droma: Over a decade after being violently cut off from the Force, with his only practice in recent days being the relatively brief training of a Jedi child, he held his own against a bloodlusted Sylvar in combat.

That might not sound particularly impressive, but keep in mind a few things:

Ulic had spent the past ten years wandering the galaxy, spirit broken. Put on trial in front of the Senate for crimes against humanity - a charge that wouldn't be invoked again for another four thousand years - immediately before the assassination of the Chancellor by his Sith Master, one would imagine his standing with the galactic populace (a pilot who identifies him ends up shooting him in the back) indicated that he hadn't spent many of those years in anything resembling comfortable conditions. His health and athleticism had presumably suffered as a result, and he didn't have a lightsaber to practice with; the one he used against Sylvar was built one on Rhen Var by hand without the aid of the Force.

He had no connection to the Force. This means no heightened senses, enhanced reflexes, or superhuman strength, speed, and stamina. Nothing that makes a Jedi extraordinary.

His opponent had all those things, in addition to her species' inherently superior physique and the further enhancements of strength and speed provided by the battle rage she'd immersed herself in.

I'll point out that the best of non-Force-sensitive humans tend to compare rather poorly to even the most reserved of Jedi in close combat. Jango Fett, trained Mandalorian, genetically prime and the most dangerous bounty hunter in the galaxy, took on Obi-Wan with pistols, a rocket launcher, and starship cannons controlled by a third-party, and managed at best to run away. Another Mandalorian attacked Kenobi with a lightsaber during the Clone Wars. Despite putting up an impressive show, he was disarmed and humiliated. Entire sections of The Cestus Deception are dedicated to the awe Kit Fisto inspires in ARC troopers, the most gifted and effective soldiers in the clone army.

As of Redemption, Qel-Droma was no longer a physical specimen of any note. He had no power in the Force. The only thing that could possible have enabled him to withstand the assault of a murderous Jedi, someone quick enough to deflect blaster bolts and strong enough to beat down Massassi, is an enormous command of the lightsaber. His skill is completely unquestionable.

Someone with the relevant sources can tell you about Bondara. Again, given the issue we're dealing with in this thread narration is usually going to be at least as important as action. Don't forget that.

This is an excellent post and illustrates their technical skills. The problem is, it's via mostly narration or fighting people of little significance or skill. To put it simply, you might have all the technical skill and mastered ever form in the dojo. Yet the only real way to test such skill and see how good you really are.. is to test said technical skill in a one v one battle, against a high calibur foe to the death.. is this the best way to determine skill when it matters the most?

Originally posted by john allerdyce
hm, that sounds pretty impressive. might you have scans of this, sir? I might:
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/KryatvsObi1.jpg
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/KryatvsObi2.jpg
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/KryatvsObi3.jpg
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/KryatvsObi4.jpg
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/KryatvsObi5.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
I might:
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/KryatvsObi1.jpg
http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/KryatvsObi2.jpg
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Originally posted by ben222
According to me :
1)FOTJ Luke skywalker
2)ROTS Yoda
3)DE Sidious
4)Darth Caedus
5)ROTS Mace Windu
6)Galen Marek
7)ROTS Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
8)Darth Bane
9)Darth Revan
10)FOTJKyp Durron

1. ROTJ luke skywalker
2. DE palpatine
3. DARTH Caedus
4. Darth Vader
5. ROTS yoda
6. ROTS count dooku
7. Mace windu
8. Darth Bane
9. Plo koon
10. Obi wan kenobi

In terms of skill, hmm

1. GM Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda.
4. Jacen Solo
5. ROTS Vader
6. Mace Windu/Count Dooku
7. Darth Vader
8. Darth Maul
9. Exar Kun
10. ROTS Kenobi/Lumiya/Ventress/Ulic Qel Droma

Sidious.

????

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
I'd say Kas'im is the most technically skilled duelist in the SW mythos. Maybe Yoda is second due to the huge amount of time he'd have to train, as well as having trained numerous apprentices.

Isn't Sidious an ambidextrous master of every classical lightsaber form? That accompanied by his feats could put him at the top of a technical-skill ranking.

In no specific order:

- Mace Windu
- Kas'im
- Kao Cen Darach
- Yoda
- Tulak Hord
- Emperor's Wrath
- Exar Kun
- Ulic Qel-Droma
- Darth Caedus
- Luke Skywalker

I've become numb to the unfounded Kas'im wank, but what is so grand about Kao? How can you gauge he is one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos based off of one trailer against a featless Vindican and an early Malgus? You have Mace on the list but not Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Maul, etc.

Please tell me you have something other than that one trailer to go on, because if that's all it is, you really can't deny you're very clearly biased towards TOR.

Though of course, no matter how many times I've said this, you will deny it obviously.

He's better than Kas'im imo, holding back Vindican and Young Malgus easily surpasses anything Kas'im has shown

As always, Luke and Sidious are on top of the heap, in that order.

@Carth

ROTS Vader above Mace and Dooku in terms of skill? How?

Revan tulak Hord dooku vader malgus Yoda sidious....Qui-Gon Jin. Marka Ragnos exar Kun Ulic quel droma.

Originally posted by Trocity
I've become numb to the unfounded Kas'im wank, but what is so grand about Kao? How can you gauge he is one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos based off of one trailer against a featless Vindican and an early Malgus? You have Mace on the list but not Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Maul, etc.

Please tell me you have something other than that one trailer to go on, because if that's all it is, you really can't deny you're very clearly biased towards TOR.

Though of course, no matter how many times I've said this, you will deny it obviously.
Unfounded Kas'im wank? Brilliant.

What is go grand about Kao?

Kao became the Jedi Order's battlemaster and demonstrated extreme technical proficiency in Jedi dueling arts by virtue of his ability to expertly use both double-bladed and normal lightsabers in a duel simultaneously. Officially, it is more difficult to master lightsaber forms using a double-bladed lightsaber then a normal lightsaber; Kao evidently went a step above norm.

Vindican was able to effectively duel Kao until the latter adopted unfamiliar dueling tactic to outduel the former with use of multiple blades. And Malgus was among the greatest warriors of the Empire even as of this point in history.

People mistakenly assume that Malgus was an amateur as of Return.

Kao have very impressive combat resume. Some people just don't realize his potential and the circumstantial nature of his demise, based on self-delusion.

I can assert that what is so great about Maul managing to duel the duo of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan (Padawan). However, it was this particular showing that promoted Maul as a great warrior. And the hype lived-on.

Kao happens to be the underdog by virtue of being featured in TOR era content. And I am biased for promoting him as a standout duelist on the basis of official evidence; such hypocrisy.

Abit I'm not sure that Kao is one of the top in all of SW, sure his one showing was great and he is a Battlemaster and he did fight Malgus and Vindican, sure would he be one of the top of his era? Yes of course. But I'm not sure that single showing, would elevate him up to the Top 10 in all of Star Wars.

There are A LOT of duelists in the galaxy to look over after all.

Hmm. Tough call. My best bet is:

1. Zannah
2. Kao
3. Revan
4. Kas'im
5. Bane
6. Vindican
7. Sion
8. Malgus
9. Sidious
10. Nihilus

Any reason Nihilus is below Sidious? And where is Vitiate?

Originally posted by ILS
Any reason Nihilus is below Sidious? And where is Vitiate?
Well, I admit Nihilus and Sidious placement was pretty arbitrary. They are interchangable imho.

And Vitiate is god-tier, obviously. Up there with Bandon and Ahsoka.

Ahsoka is God-tier, yeah.

Why is Revan above Kas'im?

Because Kas'im died and Revan still lives which indicates mastery of all forms to the highest degree.

Originally posted by carthage
Why is Revan above Kas'im?
How can you put Kas im over Revan that sounds fun to here.

Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
How can you put Kas im over Revan that sounds fun to here.

Revan sucks he shouldn't be on the list

Revan has basically nothing but Ant-wank to establish his lightsaber skills. So yeah he shouldn't be anywhere near this list.

Zannah and Kas'im definitely should, right? Mad impressive feats.

Well in technical skill they're both much better than Revan, yeah. Kas'im basically maxed out how far you could go with technical skill with a lightsaber. The only way to be better would if you were some sort of unsurpassed saber genius. And given that Kas'im managed to master all forms in a few years, I'm pretty sure he's already got bonkers natural aptitude. And Zannah's defense is pretty good too. I'm not sure I'd mention her based just on that though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Zannah and Kas'im definitely should, right? Mad impressive feats.

Compared to all all the people in Star Wars that would be on these list he and she wouldn't be on this list

My list
1. Luke Skwalker
2.Darth Sidious
3. Darth Caedus ( not for sure my mind is being influenced)
4. Darth Vader
5. Yoda
6. Dooku
7. Windu
8. Kyle katarn
9. Jana Solo
10. Darth bane

Kas'im deserves to be on the list of worst duelists of all time.

True carthage what's your list

Originally posted by carthage
In terms of skill, hmm

1. GM Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda.
4. Jacen Solo
5. ROTS Vader
6. Mace Windu/Count Dooku
7. Darth Vader
8. Darth Maul
9. Exar Kun
10. ROTS Kenobi/Lumiya/Ventress/Ulic Qel Droma

I would put vader above yoda and ROTS vader

Originally posted by carthage
Ventress
I laughed so hard Bane was resurrected.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I laughed so hard Bane was resurrected.

Is what I thought when I read:

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Zannah...should, right? Mad impressive feats.

Really?

Originally posted by ILS
Any reason Nihilus is below Sidious? And where is Vitiate?

Vitiate not a deulist

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
I would put vader above yoda and ROTS vader

?????

Originally posted by carthage
?????

Ok Pre suit vader was a stretch but Vader in his prime has refined his style to the point he can match any duelist including yoda. And vader is very skilled and smart and knows,when to just sit back and relax. While yoda plows try's to fight through wasting energy, vader will be defending hi,self and staying fresh.

I'm sorry but that sounds like Jensaari, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm sorry but that sounds like Jensaari, lol.

Yea I know but still he has a point.

Yoda throughout his years were not facing Sith so frequently throughout his 900 years of life. Darth Vader was fighting Jedi for decades during the galactic empire. This means that any experience yoda may have is matched if not outdone by vader since he faced more lightsaber deuilist, some even much faster. With this he has refined his style way more than yoda who has not adjusted since he never has had to before. Sot his is why as lightsaber duelist I rank vader above yoda.

Experience is widely overrated, and Yoda's canonically more skilled than Anakin, Mace etc. who Vader isn't more skilled than.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Experience is widely overrated, and Yoda's canonically more skilled than Anakin, Mace etc. who Vader isn't more skilled than.

Actually there is some debate about whether or not anakin is better than vader. I am of the belief that vader is better than anakin. How is experience overrated. It's like putting a rand new Jedi knight vs a seasoned Jedi knight. The seasoned one is going to win with more experience and with more experience comes greater force powers and greater lightsaber skills. As a duelist it is no question on whether vader is better as he knows more forms and has taken each to a higher degree. Also he would have the knowledge of his former self. But even if he didn't he would still win. As for force abilities vader can make his arsenal work effectively. Anakin had all of his living tissue thus the force could flow better in him. But vader had more variety and arguably similar or greater magnitude.

Vader is far more skilled Force user, but Anakin is more skilled duelist and is much more faster, durable and agile.
Anakin takes the sabers, Vader takes the Force and all-out is debatable.

Originally posted by McP
Vader is far more skilled Force user, but Anakin is more skilled duelist and is much more faster, durable and agile.
Anakin takes the sabers, Vader takes the Force and all-out is debatable.

I'm afraid I have to respectively disagree vader is by far the superior lightsaber duelist. As he knows all styles and is superior in djem so

No, he isn't superior Djem So user. He has his own uniqe style, because he wasn't able to use a pure Djem So in the same degree as before, because of his limitations.

And he's nowhere near of Yoda's level. That's just Jensary's (or whatever this noob is called) bullshit.

Cin Drallig also knew all styles, which didn't help him against Anakin's far superior Djem So.

Originally posted by McP
No, he isn't superior Djem So user. He has his own uniqe style, because he wasn't able to use a pure Djem So in the same degree as before, because of his limitations.

And he's nowhere near of Yoda's level. That's just Jensary's (or whatever this noob is called) bullshit.

Cin Drallig also knew all styles, which didn't help him against Anakin's far superior Djem So.

He actually is. Djem so is strength based and now he has more strength and vader is not slow he was able to match several Jedi who were faster than he. And he was known as the godfather of Djem so after his transformation. Yes he has a unique style made up of all other styles so either a complete form of nymand or he just knows all seven and can encorporate them seemlessly. What proof do you have that he was not able to use Djem so to the same degree.

Darth Kas'im

Originally posted by ILS
Darth Kas'im

Haha you almost had me for a second

Originally posted by McP
No, he isn't superior Djem So user. He has his own uniqe style, because he wasn't able to use a pure Djem So in the same degree as before, because of his limitations.

And he's nowhere near of Yoda's level. That's just Jensary's (or whatever this noob is called) bullshit.

Cin Drallig also knew all styles, which didn't help him against Anakin's far superior Djem So.

Cin drallig was more of a jack of all trades than a master like he knew all seven forms but couldn't apply them to a level worthy of people like dooku

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
What proof do you have that he was not able to use Djem so to the same degree.

Luceno's Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader as I remember. But I wont be able to give you a quote at this moment.

It only states he made a hybrid of all forms or something like that, Nargaroth likely has the same specific quotes. But in return his form would've been more advanced than Anakin's brand of Djem so, even as far back as ESB you see Vader using elements of Makashi as well

Either way OT Vader has accolades/quotes that'd place him among the most skilled duelists in the mythos

Originally posted by McP
Luceno's Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader as I remember. But I wont be able to give you a quote at this moment.

It's ok take your time.

Originally posted by carthage
It only states he made a hybrid of all forms or something like that, Nargaroth likely has the same specific quotes. But in return his form would've been more advanced than Anakin's brand of Djem so, even as far back as ESB you see Vader using elements of Makashi as well

Either way OT Vader has accolades/quotes that'd place him among the most skilled duelists in the mythos

Well said

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
My list
1. Luke Skwalker
2.Darth Sidious
3. Darth Caedus ( not for sure my mind is being influenced)
4. Darth Vader
5. Yoda
6. Dooku
7. Windu
8. Kyle katarn
9. Jana Solo
10. Darth bane

After reconsideration there are a few changes I must make.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Darth Vader
5. Darth Caedus
6. Count Dooku
7. Mace Windu
8. Kyle Katarn
9. Jaina Solo
10. Mara Jade Skywalker

1. Darth Sidious

Vader a more skilled duelist than Caedus?

Mara and Kyle top ten but not someone like Kenobi?

Come on, EmperorSids.

1) Darth Sidious
2/3) Yoda/Luke
4) Darth Caedus

No Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker/Count Dooku? D:

Originally posted by NewGuy01
No Mace Windu/Anakin Skywalker/Count Dooku? D:

Hmm do you think they are more skilled than Caedus?

1. Yoda
2. Sidious
3. Luke
4. Mace
5. Dooku
6. Caedus
7. Kun
8. Ulic
9. Kenobi
10. Grievous

Originally posted by Sinious
Hmm do you think they are more skilled than Caedus?

More skilled? Probably not. As skilled? Probably.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
More skilled? Probably not. As skilled? Probably.

I'm actually inclined to agree. To me it feels like post purge Jedi(barring Luke cause he still learned from PT Jedi) seem to lack some sort of depth in lightsaber teaching based on rich history in their fights for some reason. Even their lightsaber forms are all weird. Caedus too doesn't seem to have secured his spot at the top with his skill.

Their lightsaber forms are in large parts personalized, yes, but usually have strong roots in known forms as well. Caedus is a very versatile and committed duelist, I think his "spot at the top" is very secure based on showings. It's just that he's not the only one that's reached that level.

What skill showings are you referring to exactly?

Not sure I think Anakin is precisely as skilled as Tyranus but they're definitely in the same tier.

Originally posted by Sinious
What skill showings are you referring to exactly?

On Caedus' part? His performance against Katarn and his team is probably the best example, followed by his duel with Luke.

Not really impressed with his performance against Luke, at least skill wise.

Marka ****ing Ragnos.

Hord's canonically more skilled than any of the other ancient Sith, which means he's a possible contender for the list despite his ambiguity.

I'm inclined to say the likes of Dooku and Mace rival Caedus in sheer skill, though. Caedus obviously had more inherent talent in terms of handling a lighsaber, but he never reached his prime as a result of an early death. Still, his edges in comparison to somebody like Dooku seem to be related to a naturally stronger connection to the Force and physical edges. In terms of raw skill, Dooku and Mace were just under Yoda, and I'm personally not convinced Caedus is a match for Yoda in terms of raw skill myself. He, too, should be just beneath Yoda.

I rank Anakin just beneath Dooku/Mace/Caedus, but I could see the argument for him being around there.

Vader's one of the most skilled duelists of all time, obviously, but I'm not convinced he's more skilled than Anakin himself. I mean, this list is about technical skill, and Vader expressed greater proficiency in forms outside of Djem So, but I assume "technical skill" is a reference to somebody's raw talent with a blade, and I'm just not convinced Vader has better showings of any sort to confirm his superiority over Anakin, who is canonically within the same tier as Yoda and Sidious as far as dueling skill goes.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Hord's canonically more skilled than any of the other ancient Sith, which means he's a possible contender for the list despite his ambiguity.

I'm inclined to say the likes of Dooku and Mace rival Caedus in sheer skill, though. Caedus obviously had more inherent talent in terms of handling a lighsaber, but he never reached his prime as a result of an early death. Still, his edges in comparison to somebody like Dooku seem to be related to a naturally stronger connection to the Force and physical edges. In terms of raw skill, Dooku and Mace were just under Yoda, and I'm personally not convinced Caedus is a match for Yoda in terms of raw skill myself. He, too, should be just beneath Yoda.

I rank Anakin just beneath Dooku/Mace/Caedus, but I could see the argument for him being around there.

I think it's too tricky to rank them 1-10, so I'd do them as tiers:

TIER 1

Luke Skywalker - Yoda

TIER 2

Darth Sidious - Mace Windu - Count Dooku - Darth Caedus

TIER 3

Exar Kun - Jaina Solo - Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker

TIER 4

Darth Maul - Obi-Wan Kenobi - Starkiller

TIER 5

Ulic-Qel Droma - Vodo-Siosk Baas - Kyle Katarn

Where is Vos?

And why Ulic is two tiers below Exar?

Lol @ Vos

I assume your referring to the fact Ulic stalemated against him, that's all well and good, but Kun never used his saberstaff.

Yes. But do you think Kun's that much better with his staff?

Originally posted by Stigma
Yes. But do you think Kun's that much better with his staff? His performance against Vodo suggests as much. When dueling with one-blade Vodo holds his own, but as soon as he brandishes his second blade Vodo goes down in a few panels.

I see. TBH I have found a new appreciation for Kun lately.

Lol I forgot to add Krayt though :mmm:

What I want to know is why Sidious isn't a tier 1

Luke defeated DE Sidious (with Leia's help, but that only negated the Force advantage) and Yoda realistically defeated him in a lightsaber duel also, who was also said to possess unequaled skill.

On the other hand with Vaapad to negate the Force advantage, Sidious perfectly stalemated against Windu, whom Yoda is also superior too.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
After reconsideration there are a few changes I must make.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Darth Vader
5. Darth Caedus
6. Count Dooku
7. Mace Windu
8. Kyle Katarn
9. Jaina Solo
10. Mara Jade Skywalker

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Darth Caedus
5. Darth Vader
6. Count Dooku
7. Mace Windu
8. Obi Wan Kenobi
9. Jaina Solo
10. Kyle Katarn

Scourge tbh.

Kas'im.

Vitiate.

Venamis.