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superman is trapped in an illusion he cannot escape from. he sees new genesis as apokolips and a parademon has just killed lois and fled to "apokolips". he sees all new gods as their apokoliptian variations. he is intent on destroying everyone and everything.

can the new gods stop him?

imagine the same scenario but this time it was marvel asgard.

new gods and asgardians have 30 minutes of foreknowledge before he arrives.

IF you feel he needs it he can grab his phantom zone projector.

Can't they just boomtube him back to earth, trapping him there?

In a revenge plot, he would be acting out of his concept of hope role, and probably couldnt draw his full power.
In a story where he's the very idea of hope and he sets to a task, nothing can stop him.

In this story, he'll fight it up with Orion for a bit, then Highfather will whammy him somehow and make him see shit right.

and Asgard dies.

Hmm, who is around to fight him on New Genesis? Asgard, it doesn't matter, he will flatten everyone there

Orion would probably take him under these conditions.

the scenario is unbreakable.

anyway boom tube bfr could work if anyone is fast enough to hit him with it.

but let's say bfr is off.

Originally posted by carver9
Orion would probably take him under these conditions.

yeah... c'mon carv. ds and i know you're better than that.

We have seen a compromised Superman, under the same conditions.

Originally posted by carver9
We have seen a compromised Superman, under the same conditions.
Not under mind control?

Sounds like Thing could indeed beat Hulk....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Sounds like Thing could indeed beat Hulk....
Noooooooooooooo

I get confused as to when mind controlled characters are allowed or not.

Anyway, so as to not derail Leo's fine thread further, he beats both when he's in his 'Final Crisis Phuck You Darkseid You Killed My Best Buddy Batman' mindset.

Would be hilarious if he faces the Destroyer, and he just uses backwards magic to pull the host spirit out

If Superman is in a bloodlusted/all-out mindset, then I don't seen them stopping him... Unless New Genesis gets really creative with the Motherboxes.

All of New Genesis? Surely not on his own.

But he could probably do serious damage in Asgard these days.

Oh I missed there's 30mins prep. Hmm. That changes my mind, I think....

^ Prep is a huge factor for me also... Mainly because of the MBs.

@Darksaint...

I said Superman being mentally compromised IS an issue here which is the reason he would lose. Can you not read?

Originally posted by Juntai
In a revenge plot, he would be acting out of his concept of hope role, and probably couldnt draw his full power. When has this "hope role" concept ever explicitly limited Superman on-panel due to brainwashing? Or are you just describing CIS? Originally posted by Juntai
In a story where he's the very idea of hope and he sets to a task, nothing can stop him. So... Superman wins because he's the protagonist. That's a characteristic he shares with every headlining superhero in comics??? Originally posted by Juntai
In this story, he'll fight it up with Orion for a bit, then Highfather will whammy him somehow and make him see shit right. leonidas' OP set forth that the brainwashing is inescapable. Originally posted by Galan007
^ Prep is a huge factor for me also... Mainly because of the MBs. Am I the only one that thinks Highfather would individually take down this hypothetically bloodlusted Superman? Let alone a prepped Highfather... let alone a prepped Highfather who has the entirety of New Genesis helping him?????

i was curious about that myself....

Originally posted by ODG
When has this "hope role" concept ever explicitly limited Superman on-panel due to brainwashing? Or are you just describing CIS? So... Superman wins because he's the protagonist. That's a characteristic he shares with every headlining superhero in comics??? leonidas' OP set forth that the brainwashing is inescapable. Am I the only one that thinks Highfather would individually take down this hypothetically bloodlusted Superman? Let alone a prepped Highfather... let alone a prepped Highfather who has the entirety of New Genesis helping him????? Yes, its been shown several times that both his mental state is almost everything in relation to his powers, and also that under mind control his full powers can't be accessed. It's also been shown that when acting in accordance to his role or what is good and just, his power is increased.

And no, not every protagonist is actually the living embodiment of hope.

Originally posted by carver9
@Darksaint...

I said Superman being mentally compromised IS an issue here which is the reason he would lose. Can you not read?

Oh, so Superman is not at 100%. I am 100% sure that is what leo wanted. Can you not understand?

Originally posted by Juntai
Yes, its been shown several times that both his mental state is almost everything in relation to his powers, Mental state affects pretty much every superhero's powers. What sort of unremarkable attribute is this? And, yes, while this unremarkable premise is a factor that can be significant, your characterization of is an overexaggeration. The real thing that "is almost everything in relation to his powers" isn't his mental state. It's the plot. If the plot needs Superman to overcome all odds, yea. Which goes for every superhero. Originally posted by Juntai
and also that under mind control his full powers can't be accessed. This separate premise is yet another unremarkable concept that really has nothing to do with this "hope role" concept you're peddling. Originally posted by Juntai
It's also been shown that when acting in accordance to his role or what is good and just, his power is increased. Just provide an example of this "hope role" self-amp happening on-panel. Then, post an example where brainwashing short-circuited this "hope role" self-amp on-panel. Originally posted by Juntai
And no, not every protagonist is actually the living embodiment of hope. https://i.imgur.com/CQbe09y.gif

I'm glad this is being discussed. 🤤🤤🤤

Originally posted by carver9
I'm glad this is being discussed. 🤤🤤🤤 https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Slap01.gif

oh boy this is gonna get ugly lol and yeah--he's not mind controlled carv. he's just being tricked. he feels he's cmpletely in the right in deciding to finally rid the universe of its greatest source of evil.

important thing is that I am once more correct, and carver is wrong as usual.

the flip side of that is that carv was wrong. is that really worth bringing up? to that end i'm officially declaring this a bully-free thread! so feel free to post whatever you like carv without that bully ds taking anymore of your lunch money. you're welcome.

Anyway, with 30 mins prep, as BFR is off:

The New Gods set their motherboxes to attack anything going over the speed of sound (like John Stewart did his ring).

As soon as Superman arrives, the Motherboxes all attack - I think there are about 20 of them that we know about?

One creates Kryptonite
One creates red sun radiation
One summons Shazam's lightning
One etc etc you get the picture.

And then someone time travels and undoes everything, making it so Superman never landed on Earth.

Originally posted by leonidas
the flip side of that is that carv was wrong. is that really worth bringing up? to that end i'm officially declaring this a bully-free thread! so feel free to post whatever you like carv without that bully ds taking anymore of your lunch money. you're welcome.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Originally posted by leonidas
oh boy this is gonna get ugly lol and yeah--he's not mind controlled carv. he's just being tricked. he feels he's cmpletely in the right in deciding to finally rid the universe of its greatest source of evil.

Why wouldn't Orion be able to stand up to him?

frankly superman is just too powerful.

For Orion? Please explain.

Originally posted by ODG
Mental state affects pretty much every superhero's powers. What sort of unremarkable attribute is this? And, yes, while this unremarkable premise is a factor that can be significant, your characterization of is an overexaggeration. The real thing that "is almost everything in relation to his powers" isn't his mental state. It's the plot. If the plot needs Superman to overcome all odds, yea. Which goes for every superhero. This separate premise is yet another unremarkable concept that really has nothing to do with this "hope role" concept you're peddling. Just provide an example of this "hope role" self-amp happening on-panel. Then, post an example where brainwashing short-circuited this "hope role" self-amp on-panel. https://i.imgur.com/CQbe09y.gif To a degree, sure, all great stories are about a person or team overcoming odds.

Superman's mental state isn't the same, he is actually physically far more powerful or weaker, depending on it. He even spent the entire year of 52 without his powers entirely, just because he believed he didn't have them, then the moment he wanted them, he had them. Thats the degree his mental ability controls his power. We also know that his mental state causes him to draw in far more energy than normal, for example, when he's stressed.

And when he believes he can do the impossible, he can - can even carry the Bleed, for example.

But since you asked nicely, here's just one example that sums up a little of all the points I'm talking about.

Darkseid is using Anti-Life on him, a mental whammy job and because of this, Superman believes he's weaker and that Darkseid is too powerful for him to overcome, and Darkseid is even commenting how much weaker he is and teases him knowing why.

Then Superman chooses hope, and the two have a discussion about the very concept of hope and how it makes Superman so strong.

Well, you can read the rest.

https://imgur.com/a/km1NJvy

Originally posted by Juntai
To a degree, sure, all great stories are about a person or team overcoming odds.

Superman's mental state isn't the same, he is actually physically far more powerful or weaker, depending on it. He even spent the entire year of 52 without his powers entirely, just because he believed he didn't have them, then the moment he wanted them, he had them. Thats the degree his mental ability controls his power. We also know that his mental state causes him to draw in far more energy than normal, for example, when he's stressed.

And when he believes he can do the impossible, he can - can even carry the Bleed, for example.

But since you asked nicely, here's just one example that sums up a little of all the points I'm talking about.

Darkseid is using Anti-Life on him, a mental whammy job and because of this, Superman believes he's weaker and that Darkseid is too powerful for him to overcome, and Darkseid is even commenting how much weaker he is and teases him knowing why.

Then Superman chooses hope, and the two have a discussion about the very concept of hope and how it makes Superman so strong.

Well, you can read the rest.

https://imgur.com/a/km1NJvy

It's also the scale of the rising to the occasion.

Spidey, one of the poster boys for rising to the occasion - when HE needs to, he lifts a building.

With Superman, barely able to hold his own weight up, needs to rise to the occasion? He shatters a planet.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's also the scale of the rising to the occasion.

Spidey, one of the poster boys for rising to the occasion - when HE needs to, he lifts a building.

With Superman, barely able to hold his own weight up, needs to rise to the occasion? He shatters a planet. Remember, Spidey might like to hang around street levelers and low metas but his strength bracket is Colossus and She Hulk and Surfer etc.

Originally posted by carver9
For Orion? Please explain.

lol superman. is. simply. more. powerful. than. orion. like, in every way. evidence? their collective histories and feats. i'm about to remove the no-bullying clause in this thread. but by all means if you think orion has a feat anywhere from any time that superman can't actually top, please display it. it could be fun

Hmm I'd be interested in this too. No bullying!

Originally posted by leonidas
the flip side of that is that carv was wrong. is that really worth bringing up? to that end i'm officially declaring this a bully-free thread! so feel free to post whatever you like carv without that bully ds taking anymore of your lunch money. you're welcome. Originally posted by leonidas
i'm about to remove the no-bullying clause in this thread. well, that lasted all of 10 posts

Carver inspires that in people

I don't get bullied 😤

Originally posted by leonidas
lol superman. is. simply. more. powerful. than. orion. like, in every way. evidence? their collective histories and feats. i'm about to remove the no-bullying clause in this thread. but by all means if you think orion has a feat anywhere from any time that superman can't actually top, please display it. it could be fun

Don't think we'll get a reply to this. Carver will run. Sad!

Superman might have better fts, but we can not ignore their fights. We have one fight with them stalemating. We have another fight with Orion actually matching a sun amped Superman, and we have another fight with Superman beating him with an amp.

Thor has FAR better fts than Black Adam but no one here would ever say that Thor would slaughter Adam. Hulk has better fts than Doomsday, but I 100% know you all will not give him the edge.

You all only look at fts when you wanna look at them because most of you are all bias AF.

lol i'm an orion fan but i also know that if superman really needed to beat orion, he'd easily handle him. pis? maybe. but pis can work in both directions carv. orion is awesome but no one is superman. thor can beat adam in many feats except a key one--speed. so no, most wouldn't say thor slaughters adam. i'd take thor for a slight majority though. probably. maybe.

head-to-head is also a pretty terrible way to judge relative power at times. if we went by head-to-head only, well, a lot of people come out looking pretty terrible lol

Originally posted by leonidas
lol i'm an orion fan but i also know that if superman really needed to beat orion, he'd easily handle him. pis? maybe. but pis can work in both directions carv. orion is awesome but no one is superman. thor can beat adam in many feats except a key one--speed. so no, most wouldn't say thor slaughters adam. i'd take thor for a slight majority though. probably. maybe. Originally posted by leonidas
head-to-head is also a pretty terrible way to judge relative power at times. if we went by head-to-head only, well, a lot of people come out looking pretty terrible lol
Carver knows that lol, that's the best part about it.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol i'm an orion fan but i also know that if superman really needed to beat orion, he'd easily handle him. pis? maybe. but pis can work in both directions carv. orion is awesome but no one is superman. thor can beat adam in many feats except a key one--speed. so no, most wouldn't say thor slaughters adam. i'd take thor for a slight majority though. probably. maybe.

Wonder Woman can handle him easily as well, huh? Since her fts piss on his. Say yes, Leo.

i'd take ww over orion... but i guess that means deathstroke can also put up a great fight against orion...? gotta be careful if you wanna use 1 on 1 match ups as examples of relative power. i'm regretting my anti-bullying stance. if anyone would like to start a list of 1 on 1 battles where someone clearly more powerful struggled in a 1 on 1 scenario that could be fun. maybe dispel this as the ultimate avenue of comparison many think it is..... i have a few in mind. i wonder if anyone has some i'm forgetting.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd take ww over orion... but i guess that means deathstroke can also put up a great fight against orion...? gotta be careful if you wanna use 1 on 1 match ups as examples of relative power. i'm regretting my anti-bullying stance. if anyone would like to start a list of 1 on 1 battles where someone clearly more powerful struggled in a 1 on 1 scenario that could be fun. maybe dispel this as the ultimate avenue of comparison many think it is..... i have a few in mind. i wonder if anyone has some i'm forgetting.
Hulk got choked out by Werewolf by Night who's barely stronger than Morbius and is listed as having strength of 2 tons.

Batman. Batman Batman Batman

Originally posted by leonidas

Jack Russel is the strongest one there is.

https://i.ibb.co/ckLpByY/AFLwqa-Zy-Op7-Ajh-j-Io-VENv-Lh2-Ndg3e-FUJd-IT4k-Af-Kn-HODQHZFag-XHZwr-J54t-HZ2-Ov-NRTq3pli-CUGz-Juo.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/MVpSCLc/r-G8-HJSIVDEm-TL0-Mk3c-GREhiz-Gw6xb-RVan-YPl-CLm-FSJRBive-Tpfr-P-ev8q8-Xtz-Yubvp-Hjo-K00j0o-Yz-REh-G.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/hXjB9Fz/pe-XVr-C4ysfc-Q3-Gw-Qwt-UKox-HQO-Oy-Bg-JSFf4v4ya-NFv48-HOF0-C7507-Nc3-SVZWs-Hg-Kmk-N66-Bc84y1y-Gw95.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/WHrR5wB/EAQoy-INj-M7-QKNj-N3-KU4-Lj-HR9c-Oa-UO-Aa-Fnku8ix-Ke-VGRz-FTt9np-AHPk-V9-WZd6l-KVz-NHh-VFDNDo35-Mcfl.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
i'd take ww over orion... but i guess that means deathstroke can also put up a great fight against orion...? gotta be careful if you wanna use 1 on 1 match ups as examples of relative power. i'm regretting my anti-bullying stance. if anyone would like to start a list of 1 on 1 battles where someone clearly more powerful struggled in a 1 on 1 scenario that could be fun. maybe dispel this as the ultimate avenue of comparison many think it is..... i have a few in mind. i wonder if anyone has some i'm forgetting.

There's lowballing vs actual legit fights. We have at the minimum 4 fights between these two that always ended in a stalemate. How many fights would it take for us to look at it as those two being peers, twelve?

Anyways, I'm satisfied that you feel WW would smoke Orion.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hulk got choked out by Werewolf by Night who's barely stronger than Morbius and is listed as having strength of 2 tons.

Thor fts piss on Doomsdays. Why do you give Doomsday the edge against him? Don't bring up fights, please. Thanks.

Philo posted fights trying to prove that Aquaman and Wonder Woman are equals and even a mod chimed in and said that they are not that far apart. This was based entirely off of fights between the two. Most agreed with them. This is why I say KMC just debate as unorthodox as possible...

https://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=654168&pagenumber=11

Originally posted by carver9
Thor fts piss on Doomsdays. Why do you give Doomsday the edge against him? Don't bring up fights, please. Thanks.
Do they now? Show me Thor punching his way out of Hell.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Do they now? Show me Thor punching his way out of Hell.

This ft is lame. Stop mentioning it.

Originally posted by carver9
This ft is lame. Stop mentioning it.
Guess you can't.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Guess you can't.

Two Thors clash hammers and generate enough force that it erupts mystical energy across all planes of reality. Not only that, the force of the hit was equivalent to that of the big bang.

https://i.ibb.co/p37ZmMD/Screenshot-20241014-234214.png
upload images

Prove that Doomsday hit was anywhere close to that. This hammer hit sent shockwaves across the universe, AND it was said by the narrator, not from a character.

Originally posted by carver9
Two Thors clash hammers and generate enough force that it erupts mystical energy across all planes of reality. Not only that, the force of the hit was equivalent to that of the big bang.

https://i.ibb.co/p37ZmMD/Screenshot-20241014-234214.png
upload images

Prove that Doomsday hit was anywhere close to that. This hammer hit sent shockwaves across the universe, AND it was said by the narrator, not from a character.
Hyperbolic shit doesn't count carvster. Big bang doesn't just creates a small crater in the ground.

https://imgur.com/a/clashes-hammers-with-eric-masterson-producing-shock-wave-that-spans-universe-lmtzxID

Mystical shock waves don't equalize to actual energy of the attack.

I mean, this entire 'debate' (which isn't a debate, imo - but an argument) can be answered thus:

'In a forum fight, Full Capacity, is Orion comparable to Superman in strength/skill/speed - Yes/No?'

Simple Q. Yes or No. Each answer has ramifications, of course.

Originally posted by carver9
There's lowballing vs actual legit fights. We have at the minimum 4 fights between these two that always ended in a stalemate. How many fights would it take for us to look at it as those two being peers, twelve?

Anyways, I'm satisfied that you feel WW would smoke Orion.

and there so many fights that ARE pis. that's the problem. equal fights don't discredit vast differences in feats. it's not complicated. just because a few fights are made to be close doesn't mean they aren't pis to varying degrees. and i never said ww would smoke orion they are relatively close. much closer than superman and orion by--again--their entire relative histories. but yes, i'd take ww in a fight between them.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hyperbolic shit doesn't count carvster. Big bang doesn't just creates a small crater in the ground.

https://imgur.com/a/clashes-hammers-with-eric-masterson-producing-shock-wave-that-spans-universe-lmtzxID

Mystical shock waves don't equalize to actual energy of the attack.

Lol... I knew you was going to say this. Are you not the same guy that said Supergirl survived a Galaxy level attack (statement) and that Doomsday and Superman last punch shook earth to the core (statement)? Let me know.

Originally posted by leonidas
and there so many fights that ARE pis. that's the problem. equal fights don't discredit vast differences in feats. it's not complicated. just because a few fights are made to be close doesn't mean they aren't pis to varying degrees. and i never said ww would smoke orion they are relatively close. much closer than superman and orion by--again--their entire relative histories. but yes, i'd take ww in a fight between them.

Why are Orion and Wonder Woman close when Wonder Woman has far better fts? We can make a thread and compare if you want.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, this entire 'debate' (which isn't a debate, imo - but an argument) can be answered thus:

'In a forum fight, Full Capacity, is Orion comparable to Superman in strength/skill/speed - Yes/No?'

Simple Q. Yes or No. Each answer has ramifications, of course.

I want Leo to answer my question first. Wonder Woman fts are better, period and not slightly either. A fight between the two shouldn't be close, so why is Leo saying it is. Hulk should be able to just one punch KO Orion as soon as the fight starts and Thor should as well. All based off fts.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... I knew you was going to say this. Are you not the same guy that said Supergirl survived a Galaxy level attack (statement) and that Doomsday and Superman last punch shook earth to the core (statement)? Let me know.
Yes, the galaxy level stuff didn't leave a crater in the ground and broke a few windows.

Hyperbolic statements are Hyperbolic, you'd know if you had a brain.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, the galaxy level stuff didn't leave a crater in the ground and broke a few windows.

Hyperbolic statements are Hyperbolic, you'd know if you had a brain.

Glad you admitted Supergirl showing was hyperbolic as well. It took a Thor ft to make you throw away the Supergirl ft you mentioned consistently.

Originally posted by carver9
Glad you admitted Supergirl showing was hyperbolic as well. It took a Thor ft to make you throw away the Supergirl ft you mentioned consistently.
I wasn't aware Supergirl's galaxy level attacks left a crater in the ground, scans?

Originally posted by carver9
I want Leo to answer my question first. Wonder Woman fts are better, period and not slightly either. A fight between the two shouldn't be close, so why is Leo saying it is. Hulk should be able to just one punch KO Orion as soon as the fight starts and Thor should as well. All based off fts.

geezus, you make it so hard to ever try and take you're side. you're so obtuse and transparent. you also didn't read what i said obviously. but tell me carv, why CAN'T hulk one shot ko orion? and why can't thor? they've actually never fought so all we HAVE are feats. so why don't they both ko him instantly...?

answering my question will by extension answer the 'trap' you think i some how fell into

Originally posted by leonidas
geezus, you make it so hard to ever try and take you're side.

So don't.

Originally posted by carver9
Two Thors clash hammers and generate enough force that it erupts mystical energy across all planes of reality. Not only that, the force of the hit was equivalent to that of the big bang.

https://i.ibb.co/p37ZmMD/Screenshot-20241014-234214.png
upload images

Prove that Doomsday hit was anywhere close to that. This hammer hit sent shockwaves across the universe, AND it was said by the narrator, not from a character.
I thought you don't use old fts?
Originally posted by carver9
I mentioned Hulk destroying a Universe (and I would never scale him that high) because of the argument that was being made in that thread which is kinda similar to what is being said here. When old fts are used, I bring up old fts from Marvel characters *that is obviously being dismissed since we all know these characters do not operate at this level of power.*

According to Carver, 30years ish isn't old

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I thought you don't use old fts?

That post doesn't say that.

Originally posted by carver9
That post doesn't say that.
Originally posted by carver9
I mentioned Hulk destroying a Universe (and I would never scale him that high) because of the argument that was being made in that thread which is kinda similar to what is being said here. When old fts are used, *I bring up old fts from Marvel characters that is obviously being dismissed since we all know these characters do not operate at this level of power.*
So how powerful do you think the current Thor power levels are? can he create a big bang level force(or somewhere around it)?
If not, then shouldn't the ft you brought up get dismissed since we all know he doesn't operate at this level of power in his current iteration

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So how powerful do you think the current Thor power levels are? can he create a big bang level force(or somewhere around it)?
If not, then shouldn't the ft you brought up get dismissed since we all know he doesn't operate at this level of power in his current iteration

As powerful as classic Supes... those scans you tend to post all of the time. Let me know if you need examples.

Originally posted by carver9
As powerful as classic Supes... those scans you tend to post all of the time. Let me know if you need examples.
But I didn't say this, did I?
Originally posted by carver9
I mentioned Hulk destroying a Universe (and I would never scale him that high) because of the argument that was being made in that thread which is kinda similar to what is being said here. When old fts are used, I bring up old fts from Marvel characters that is obviously being dismissed since we all know these characters do not operate at this level of power.
I mean, it's *your words*, *your standards*. Yet, it seems you're very willing to break them once it suits you

Originally posted by leonidas
geezus, you make it so hard to ever try and take you're side. you're so obtuse and transparent. you also didn't read what i said obviously. but tell me carv, why CAN'T hulk one shot ko orion? and why can't thor? they've actually never fought so all we HAVE are feats. so why don't they both ko him instantly...?

answering my question will by extension answer the 'trap' you think i some how fell into

When will we ever get a reply to this???

I hope Abhi will call Carver a baboon again!

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
But I didn't say this, did I?

I mean, it's *your words*, *your standards*. Yet, it seems you're very willing to break them once it suits you

If you disagree with it, why are we discussing it. Show me something you agree with, then we can talk. All you're doing is telling me you would've used the scan I posted of Thor.

Originally posted by leonidas
geezus, you make it so hard to ever try and take you're side. you're so obtuse and transparent. you also didn't read what i said obviously. but tell me carv, why CAN'T hulk one shot ko orion? and why can't thor? they've actually never fought so all we HAVE are feats. so why don't they both ko him instantly...?

answering my question will by extension answer the 'trap' you think i some how fell into

As long as you agree that WW pulls a majority and Hulk and Thor one punch ko him, I'm good. I have no other arguments against you.

Originally posted by carver9
Two Thors clash hammers and generate enough force that it erupts mystical energy across all planes of reality. Not only that, the force of the hit was equivalent to that of the big bang.

https://i.ibb.co/p37ZmMD/Screenshot-20241014-234214.png
upload images

Prove that Doomsday hit was anywhere close to that. This hammer hit sent shockwaves across the universe, AND it was said by the narrator, not from a character.
So, if those were two non-magical, indestructible hammers, would we see the same result? No, it was the magical energy within both that was triggered and caused the effect.

Triggering the big bang?

Triggering the gangbang

Leo has truly mellowed.

Are you arguing collateral damage?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Leo has truly mellowed.

i've been teaching younger kids the last couple years. guess i've grown accustomed to dealing with 7 year old brains.

Lmmfao... Whatever, Leo

More like a 5 year old:

https://i.postimg.cc/Wq2B3P2C/5yrs.jpg

100% kmc canon

Originally posted by carver9
Are you arguing collateral damage?

No. That's what you do.

Assuming no hyperbole/exaggeration, I'm arguing that this feat can only occur under those specific conditions (two Mjolnirs clashing). As a result, it can't be used as evidence of Mjolnir's striking ability in a forum debate.

Originally posted by h1a8
No. That's what you do.

Assuming no hyperbole/exaggeration, I'm arguing that this feat can only occur under those specific conditions (two Mjolnirs clashing). As a result, it can't be used as evidence of Mjolnir's striking ability in a forum debate.

Mjlonir is a part of Thor. Thanks for stopping by. 👋🏾

I don't think you know what he is arguing. Do you? And no, don't answer the question with a question - what do you think H1 is arguing?

That the ft can only happen with two Mjlonirs. No proof of that and the ft still stands. They replicated the big bang.

So what does it being a part of Thor have to do with refuting his post?

It's two mjolnirs Carver, when Jane and Thor replicate it again it specifically references something about time and mjolnirs Yada Yada. I haven't seen it in years but pretty sure it's something like that.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
I haven't seen it in years



Glad to confirm all thorbags are like this.

Well, we like to forget some of those years...

Phucking internet ate my reply to this post. So here it is paraphrased: Originally posted by Juntai
To a degree, sure, all great stories are about a person or team overcoming odds.

Superman's mental state isn't the same, he is actually physically far more powerful or weaker, depending on it. He even spent the entire year of 52 without his powers entirely, just because he believed he didn't have them, then the moment he wanted them, he had them. Thats the degree his mental ability controls his power. That amply proves Superman can mentally cockblock himself. Agreed. It does not, however, prove the converse. Originally posted by Juntai
We also know that his mental state causes him to draw in far more energy than normal, for example, when he's stressed.

And when he believes he can do the impossible, he can - can even carry the Bleed, for example. Like pretty much every superhero, bro.

Oh, Superman achieved the "heretofore thought impossible feat of "? Wow! No other superhero in comics ever does things like that! Like Thor never absorbed the Godbomb! Like Wonder Woman never shredded the Lasso of Lies! Like Silver Surfer never stalled the Griever at the End of All Things for 16+ minutes! Like Doctor Light never absorbed the DC Multiverse's Light from within the Orrery of Worlds! Like... n1gga please. Originally posted by Juntai
But since you asked nicely, here's just one example that sums up a little of all the points I'm talking about.

Darkseid is using Anti-Life on him, a mental whammy job and because of this, Superman believes he's weaker and that Darkseid is too powerful for him to overcome, and Darkseid is even commenting how much weaker he is and teases him knowing why.

Then Superman chooses hope, and the two have a discussion about the very concept of hope and how it makes Superman so strong.

Well, you can read the rest.

https://imgur.com/a/km1NJvy No idea why those scans make you cream your panties. But let's reset. Give me the issue #s first so I can read the comics themselves.

omg the terrible dialogue in that scene lol 'invading my dreams is low even for you'??

anyway, yeah i gotta say i'm with odg on this one jun. i'm not opposed to your overall premise, i just don't think those scans are the best bits of support for the idea you're getting at.

it is funny though that darkseid even with mb couldn't figure out what superman was doing while fighting him. and it was a ludicrous speed feat. certainly among his best of all time.

This conversation 🤤🤤🤤

Originally posted by ODG
That amply proves Superman can mentally cockblock himself. Agreed. It does not, however, prove the converse.

I think you and Juntai are arguing two different things, whilst agreeing on the same thing?

Superman can go from 100 to 0, literally powerless. You both agree on that (I think).

Superman can also go from 0 to 100 (the example of 52 that Juntai gave). You....also both agree on that. Unless you didn't in your paraphrase, so I could be wrong.

That is dynamic strength right there. 100 to 0 to 100, purely because he wants to. I think where you then diverge, is you're thinking Juntai is also arguing Superman can go 100 to 1,000 - but that is an extension of the central premise, the premise which you both agree on.

Ok, I kinda agree with that. People that's depleted can gain a boost in power which is a form of dynamic strength.

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, I kinda agree with that. People that's depleted can gain a boost in power which is a form of dynamic strength.

The thing is, it's literal dynamic strength though, with the additional 'every hero rising to the occasion' that Superman is always part of.

It's like stacking the dynamism of Colossus when he shifts between his armoured and human form....and the heart force of Thing on top,

I think Juntai is then saying well, on top of this, is the way DC keep wanking Superman (and Batman) as the epicenter of hope blah blah blah. Sure, all heroes in comics have this Heart Force and rise up when the chips are down, but Colossus isn't held up as Marvel's antibody to protect it, nor is Surfer, or Cyclops, or Reed, hell even in DC other superheroes aren't as central to it as Superman is.

I agree. I don't see anything wrong with what you said.

Originally posted by ODG
Phucking internet ate my reply to this post. So here it is paraphrased: That amply proves Superman can mentally cockblock himself. Agreed. It does not, however, prove the converse. Like pretty much every superhero, bro.

Oh, Superman achieved the "heretofore thought impossible feat of "? Wow! No other superhero in comics ever does things like that! Like Thor never absorbed the Godbomb! Like Wonder Woman never shredded the Lasso of Lies! Like Silver Surfer never stalled the Griever at the End of All Things for 16+ minutes! Like Doctor Light never absorbed the DC Multiverse's Light from within the Orrery of Worlds! Like... n1gga please. No idea why those scans make you cream your panties. But let's reset. Give me the issue #s first so I can read the comics themselves. Sure, fulfilled what you were looking for. Mental whammy, wasnt powerful enough. Embraced hope, protected innocents, overpowered an amped god and won. You thought you had something asking for a something super specific and pretending his entire narrative history doesn't support this, though.

^ There is no masterplan at work here.

I am very aware of DC comics defining Superman's metatextual role in an on-panel manner. Doomsday Clock, in particular, was quite explicit on this. I am, however, firmly against the notion that Superman not advancing this "hope role" automatically nerfs him.

On KMC, we're supposed to remove plot from consideration. It would be disingenuous for Superman detractors to render any vs. thread indiscussible because, "Superman always wins because of plot! You're only allowed to discuss non-plot related feats, which he has very few of since he's always the main character. End of discussion."

Conversely, it is equally disingenous for Superman supporters to render any vs. thread indiscussible because, "You're only allowed to discuss plot-related feats due to Superman's unique metatextual role. Superman cannot be honestly discussed when he's removed from the context of plot. End of discussion."

Both approaches are transparent self-serving perversions of Superman's metatextual role. But if you want to keep discussing this, just give me the comic issue #s that I asked for.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think you and Juntai are arguing two different things, whilst agreeing on the same thing?

Superman can go from 100 to 0, literally powerless. You both agree on that (I think).

Superman can also go from 0 to 100 (the example of 52 that Juntai gave). You....also both agree on that. Unless you didn't in your paraphrase, so I could be wrong.

That is dynamic strength right there. 100 to 0 to 100, purely because he wants to. I think where you then diverge, is you're thinking Juntai is also arguing Superman can go 100 to 1,000 - but that is an extension of the central premise, the premise which you both agree on. Too many posters have injected their own preconceptions of what "dynamic strength" means. It's become a loaded term at this point. One which I personally have little interest in discussing due to how circular such discussions appear.

If someone cannot tell the difference between how Hulk's strength amping works and Superman's strength amping works, that's their problem. Not mine.

Juntai and I are arguing something distinctly different. At least, I am.

Originally posted by ODG
Too many posters have injected their own preconceptions of what "dynamic strength" means. It's become a loaded term at this point. One which I personally have little interest in discussing due to how circular such discussions appear.

If someone cannot tell the difference between how Hulk's strength amping works and Superman's strength amping works, that's their problem. Not mine.

Juntai and I are arguing something distinctly different. At least, I am.



Originally posted by DarkSaint85
ODG's post is about.... Superman's hope role in the DCU.



As I thought. Carry on.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
ODG's post is about.... Superman's hope role in the DCU. That I am even entertaining this notion is ridiculous.

Like Superman doesn't have enough appearances. Like Superman doesn't have enough feats. Like Superman doesn't have enough feats that stand on their own separate from PIS. Somehow... unless Superman is positioned into a "hope role" he is... nerfed?

Seriously, phuck off with this sh1t.

Sorry to be so direct. But also not sorry.

Originally posted by ODG
That I am even entertaining this notion is ridiculous.

Like Superman doesn't have enough appearances. Like Superman doesn't have enough feats. Like Superman doesn't have enough feats that stand on their own separate from PIS. Somehow... unless Superman is positioned into a "hope role" he is... nerfed?

Seriously, phuck off with this sh1t.

Sorry to be so direct. But also not sorry.

yes, I got that from your initial posts. I hope you guys can reach an amicable decision.

Originally posted by carver9
Ok, I kinda agree with that. People that's depleted can gain a boost in power which is a form of dynamic strength.

None to the point where they're shattering planets, size irrelevant, though.

Unless you have scans of them doing so.

I would probably say Bill has better fts. He took s planet explosion after fighting against a trans tier opponent, and then had to endure the pull of a Black Hole. This was all during the time he also fought Stardust and koed from the planet explosion.

Originally posted by carver9
I would probably say Bill has better fts. He took s planet explosion after fighting against a trans tier opponent, and then had to endure the pull of a Black Hole. This was all during the time he also fought Stardust and koed from the planet explosion.

What makes it better?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What makes it better?
He's a marvel character.

does no one else actually see a difference between superman's "dynamic strength" and hulk's....? i'm not arguing that superman has displayed times where is strength is 'dynamic' in the strictest sense of the term. i've always said he has a type of dynamic strength. but i would agree with odg 100% when he says that hulk's strength is dynamic in a way superman's is not.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What makes it better?

He was hurt, damaged, knocked out afterwards, actually koed by Galactus before this as well, and he still pulled off all of this. Dynamic showing.

Originally posted by carver9
He was hurt, damaged, knocked out afterwards, actually koed by Galactus before this as well, and he still pulled off all of this. Dynamic showing.

Please explain how so. How does this relate to dynamic strength?

Originally posted by leonidas
does no one else actually see a difference between superman's "dynamic strength" and hulk's....? i'm not arguing that superman has displayed times where is strength is 'dynamic' in the strictest sense of the term. i've always said he has a type of dynamic strength. but i would agree with odg 100% when he says that hulk's strength is dynamic in a way superman's is not.

Don't think anyone's arguing that, Leo, lol. This is why I like stopping arguments every so often and people reiterating what their original points are, instead of just reacting to the latest post.

Originally posted by leonidas
does no one else actually see a difference between superman's "dynamic strength" and hulk's....? i'm not arguing that superman has displayed times where is strength is 'dynamic' in the strictest sense of the term. i've always said he has a type of dynamic strength. but i would agree with odg 100% when he says that hulk's strength is dynamic in a way superman's is not.
ODG is arguing that Superman's dynamic strength is like every other Superhero. Which is demonstrably false.

Originally posted by ODG


Oh, Superman achieved the "heretofore thought impossible feat of "? Wow! No other superhero in comics ever does things like that! Like Thor never absorbed the Godbomb! Like Wonder Woman never shredded the Lasso of Lies! Like Silver Surfer never stalled the Griever at the End of All Things for 16+ minutes! Like Doctor Light never absorbed the DC Multiverse's Light from within the Orrery of Worlds!

How are these even close to Superman's dynamic strength, you absolute retard? Superman beat Doomsday to death in a few punches after struggling to even hurt him for several issues AND Doomsday getting stronger throughout the fight. It'll be like Thor beating Hulk to death after struggling to even hurt him.

Superman went from hurting his hands punching Doomsday.

https://i.ibb.co/WHMsdsb/u-Ii-Ogx-Dev19s-KVWPLlye-I-pq4tl-F98zf9-E-E9xk-LVEBa4-Uf-MO4-Hv6x-Zy-S5m8-Aoyw06l-F-CW-lz-Y-s1600-rh.jpg

To beating Doomsday to death while nearly dead himself.

https://i.ibb.co/vQ4RrNj/x-VBXSm-T5-W8-HLPs-jv5-QYg-YOl-Q8xxgkt-Sod0hr-D5-WSsdg9-Mn8zbn-Jhvy0m-CAq-Vz-MVLR3-Ea-Ba-Q5k68-s1600.jpg https://i.ibb.co/sv59Wn0/kei7k-1o-E1-C-Qo-PAl-RCp0-Hy-S99-RNITni-Na-R1-Hw-YIfam-P-k3mk-R25-BRh3-SD9-3-SJ5s-Fg-4-Wx-BXM-s1600.jpg https://i.ibb.co/ssqj8QX/wij-OMEhcvs-W4-Xjm2-K3-Ega-Wi8-CM4mt-Ndk-INE-f-DJWp1-CK6-Jpix-LV9-Avlov1-Ujfnz2-Ppe-I3-ETU-05-s1600.jpg https://i.ibb.co/FntLPPw/l2-2-P3pb-Sgxr-D27-Ro-Eflf-Fd-KVGX4-RS-nty-ZEr-H2d-UWWm0-Qf-SLj-VDt-Dju-Asr-Ppk-qgh-UITCDk-xc3-s1600.jpg

yeah i lost track of the arguments lol i don't think it's exactly like every other hero, but it's certainly more plot device than hulk's. i do think there has been on panel explanations for his strength increases though. i'm sure i recall reading some narration, or a discussion in comic about his variable strength. the way his ability to metabolize energy changes at certain times. his own self imposed mental blocks have clearly been referenced in many cases as well. i don't think his strength is heart force in the same sense that spidey's are, or ben's. the sheer frequency along with the attempted explanations would suggest it's more than that. i get where odg is coming from though. he really seems able to be as strong as is needed. the very definition of plot device. superman is the hardest character in comics to place in a vs match.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah i lost track of the arguments lol i don't think it's exactly like every other hero, but it's certainly more plot device than hulk's. i do think there has been on panel explanations for his strength increases though. i'm sure i recall reading some narration, or a discussion in comic about his variable strength. the way his ability to metabolize energy changes at certain times.
You mean this?
Originally posted by Galan007


http://i.imgur.com/fUQoWRy.jpg

yep

Originally posted by abhilegend
ODG is arguing that Superman's dynamic strength is like every other Superhero. Which is demonstrably false. Goddamn you are biased, illiterate and stupid.

Do us all a favor. Please continue announcing what I am arguing.

So I can remedy your misconception and slap you down like the worthless tw@t you are.

Originally posted by ODG
Goddamn you are biased, illiterate and stupid.

Do us all a favor. Please continue announcing what I am arguing.

So I can remedy your misconception and slap you down like the worthless tw@t you are.
As usual, you don't have any such examples for Thor, Wonder Woman etc.

Get fcked retard.

Originally posted by ODG
I have been here amongst you the entire time, trying to bring Superman closer to his actual on-panel depictions.

Somehow, pointing out any on-panel instance that depicts him below trans/skyfather/abstract level renders me a hater.

I don't hate Superman. Despite what Juntai or Diesldude might think. I don't hate Thanos. Despite what quanchi112 or InsaneTitan thought. I don't hate Darkseid despite what -K-M- or Tricksterpriest thought. I don't hate Phoenix despite what Galacticstorm or -Id- thought. I don't hate Green Lanterns despite what Philophia or Blair Wind thought. I don't hate Wolverine despite what jinzin and srankmissingnin thought.

What I will do... is give the middle finger to anybody who tries to elevate any of these characters far beyond the scope they've been portrayed on-panel. I'm always down for a good comic conversation. I don't really get flustered with anyone or anything here. I'm too old now. lol.

I'm with Abhi on this one, though.

And I don't think you hate Superman, but you definitely try to go at the kryptonians as often as you can, and do your best to try to make some rather insignificant point with some sort of pipe dream that it's going to topple down like a house of cards. But it completely ignores the meat of the conversation.

See, someone like a Surfer/Hulk/Thor or similar can give Superman problems in a random issue, sure, he can underestimate people or the level he needs to maintain his power at, he can be outplanned, and he can be downed. It happens.

But, a lot of the extreme highs of these characters, their great, once in a generation rise to the occasion moment, is just regular shit to Superman, and then his 'rise to the occasion' is in a completely different realm.

Like Superman in a random issue will have a group of enemy herald level threats shows up, and he just one shots the entire group one a time, one panel each at superspeed.

In another Odin and Zeus come to him and say, hey, the evil gods of a bunch of pantheons are teaming up to try to take us down, can you give us a hand?
And he beats them all by spinning in a circle real fast.

These aren't his rise to the occasion stories.

These are one shots.


A Superman rising to the occasion moment, while nearly dead and powerless, he flies through a star, breaks all the laws of physics, his flight can be felt across all creation, and then one shots the creator of the multiverse in his native dimension.


Youre like oh Surfer fought good against the Greiver at the End, see he rises to the occasion too! all the heros do it!
Sure, because he was too small and insignificant for her to use the full breadth of her powers against. 'Like trying to destroy a microorganism by hand.'
and then what happened? He lost.
He fights Thanos about a dozen times or more. How did those go?
He fights Odin WHILE Thanos is fighting Odin, and what happened?
How did he do against Tyrant?

Basically everyone outside of his power class just crushes him, and shit, a lot of the people in it too.

And I think we both know what happens if Superman is inserted into these same stories, whether one of us wants to admit it or not.

Originally posted by abhilegend
As usual, you don't have any such examples for Thor, Wonder Woman etc.

Get fcked retard. I cited examples such as Thor absorbing the Godbomb and Wonder Woman shredding the Lasso of Lies. You're been obsessed for years following me around when you've been ignored. Stop pretending you aren't sniffing after every single post I make whilst you're unignored now.

It ain't working out for you, all things considered. But you've got no excuses to pretend that you don't see my posts now, you incomparable b1tch.

Hulk fights a team of Heralds all of the time, routinely and stomps them most of the time. He does this on more occasions than Superman, so mentioning Suoerman taking on Heralds and saying it puts him above characters like Hulk who does this almost every week is laughable.

Originally posted by Juntai
I'm always down for a good comic conversation. I don't really get flustered with anyone or anything here. I'm too old now. lol. Same. Originally posted by Juntai
I'm with Abhi on this one, though. Welp, that just basically undermined every single thing you might post from hereon forward. But, I'll set aside any attempt at poisoning the well. Originally posted by Juntai
And I don't think you hate Superman, but you definitely try to go at the kryptonians as often as you can, and do your best to try to make some rather insignificant point with some sort of pipe dream that it's going to topple down like a house of cards. But it completely ignores the meat of the conversation. I believe I go after KMC posters who try to distort on-panel facts and on-panel depictions of characters, including Kryptonians. Because, well, nobody should be excluded. It's the same exact approach I take for all the KMC fanboys who misrepresent, distort and mythologize comic characters to the point whereit offends my sensibilities. Originally posted by Juntai
See, someone like a Surfer/Hulk/Thor or similar can give Superman problems in a random issue, sure, he can underestimate people or the level he needs to maintain his power at, he can be outplanned, and he can be downed. It happens.

But, a lot of the extreme highs of these characters, their great, once in a generation rise to the occasion moment, is just regular shit to Superman, and then his 'rise to the occasion' is in a completely different realm. I read your post with interest up to about here. You drunk on your own koolaid.

Read more comics, mang. Comic superheroes who leap and bound far beyond what was normally portrayed? That happens every month.

I say this to you directly with all due respect, sincerity and courtesy, Juntai: you disagree with that, get your head out of your phucking a$$.

Anyway, that is my olive branch to you.

Wait.. wut? An insult like that? Well... yes, actually.

Because it appears to be just abject flaming of you. Which, if you or the mods choose to do so, may just shut down any continuing conversation.

And that would spare you the withering deconstruction that may ensue.

At the very least, it would spare me from entertaining such utter horsesh1t. You are honestly approaching if, not exceeding, the bounds of inanity of Wolverithmetics with this "Superman = Hope" bullsh1t.

We're talking about KMC vs hypotheticals. None of that theorycrafting even matters! Or are you just too butthurt to admit that New Genesis as a whole would literally beat Superman in a hypothetical KMC vs scenario?

Because that's what this seems to be about. The butthurt. Not the actual OP scenario. The myths. Not the comics.

Originally posted by carver9
Hulk fights a team of Heralds all of the time, routinely and stomps them most of the time. He does this on more occasions than Superman, so mentioning Suoerman taking on Heralds and saying it puts him above characters like Hulk who does this almost every week is laughable. https://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m30djnbJih1rn596ho1_400.gif

Originally posted by ODG
I cited examples such as Thor absorbing the Godbomb and Wonder Woman shredding the Lasso of Lies.
Thor had two mjolnirs and ****ing died after absorbing the godbomb. Lasso of lies is featless. Why are you so ****ing retarded. Neither is example of dynamic strength.






You're so retarded, I wonder how you remember to breathe.

Originally posted by ODG
https://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m30djnbJih1rn596ho1_400.gif

🤣

Ouch. Carver doesn't even rate an actual post these days.....

I know what he's saying.

I don't think that's in question...

Anyways, back to leo's thread.

Can New Genesis with prep take out Superman?

Can Asgard?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Thor had two mjolnirs and ****ing died after absorbing the godbomb. Given the Godbomb was killing every god across the timeline, the least it should have done was kill Thor after he had absorbed it and used it to destroy Gorr. Originally posted by abhilegend
Lasso of lies is featless. Holy jebus christ, the phucking irony.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Can New Genesis with prep take out Superman?

Can Asgard? Yes, unless you're a phucking moron.

Yes, unless you're a phucking moron.

By all means, you phucking morons, test me.

Originally posted by ODG
Given the Godbomb was killing every god across the timeline, the least it should have done was kill Thor after he had absorbed it and used it to destroy Gorr.

It did kill Thor, OKT revived him. What's it gonna do, kill him some more?

Do you know how feats work, retard? There's got to be some reference to ascertain how strong or powerful the lasso was, if you have any, feel free to post it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Anyways, back to leo's thread.

Can New Genesis with prep take out Superman?

Can Asgard? Sure, hes lost to much less.

At his height though? No, probably not. He just flat out scales higher. And much less likely still if he sundips or powerboosts in any meaningful way.