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So I have some questions regarding dooku

1. He was stated to be superior to mace in sabers prior to leaving the order?

2. He was superior to all in the force of his time save for yoda?

3. When he went to dakrside he became more powerful?

4. Did he refine/perfect/evolve makashi over the time he left to when he fought in the triology?

5. In one of the books mace stated he would likely lose/die if he fought and engaged dooku even though he mace had the element of surprise on his side?

6. Was dooku more powerful then mace windu in sabers and force? Or is it never directly stated?

7. Going by statements , clues alone since mace feared dooku didn't want to fight him, thought he would lose, does this mean dooku was his superior?

8. Could vaapad harm dooku much?

Originally posted by Board Walker
So I have some questions regarding dooku

1. He was stated to be superior to mace in sabers prior to leaving the order?

2. He was superior to all in the force of his time save for yoda?

3. When he went to dakrside he became more powerful?

4. Did he refine/perfect/evolve makashi over the time he left to when he fought in the triology?

5. In one of the books mace stated he would likely lose/die if he fought and engaged dooku even though he mace had the element of surprise on his side?

6. Was dooku more powerful then mace windu in sabers and force? Or is it never directly stated?

7. Going by statements , clues alone since mace feared dooku didn't want to fight him, thought he would lose, does this mean dooku was his superior?

8. Could vaapad harm dooku much?

1. Yes. However, we have no idea when Dooku was superior to Mace. Could have been when Mace was a Padawan for all we know (Dooku was 30 years older, afterall.)

2. Where the force is concerned, Yoda and Sidious were probably Dooku's only superiors in that period.

3. "Powerful you have become, Dooku... The dark side I sense in you."

4. I believe it was stated somewhere that Dooku had mastered Makashi before ever leaving the Jedi order.

5. If this was actually stated somewhere, I have never heard/seen it before. Tbh, I highly doubt it's validity.

6. Dooku was likely more powerful with the force... But that advantage didn't help him against Anakin -- nor did it help Sidious against Mace. /shrug

7. I highly doubt Mace 'feared' anyone... Let alone Dooku. Again, I question the validity of this supposed statement.

8. Vaapad would absolutely work in Mace's favor vs. Dooku.

Board Walker
So I have some questions regarding dooku

1. He was stated to be superior to mace in sabers prior to leaving the order?
At some point in his life, most likely in the years or decades before the events The Phantom Menace, he bested Mace in a duel.


And Palpatine of course. In raw power, Anakin at his prime almost certainly surpassed him, and Mace Windu is likely on or around his level as well.


Yes. Gideon can provide the sources.


This isn't ever implied, no.


I believe you're thinking of Shatterpoint; Mace is referring to the standoff on Geonosis. He could have assassinated Dooku, but would have forfeited his life to Jango Fett in the process.


Yoda observes that "perhaps only Mace Windu" would be Dooku's equal on neutral ground, but it might be telling that when they actually dueled on Boz Pity in Obsession the Count had his MagnaGuards drag Windu off a cliff to enable his escape.


There's no reason to believe it wouldn't be as effective against Dooku as it was against his master.

Faunus: In shatterpoint, I believe the statement was from Dooku's POV, wasn' it? Not yoda's?

Originally posted by truejedi
Faunus: In shatterpoint, I believe the statement was from Dooku's POV, wasn' it? Not yoda's? Here's the excerpt from Shatterpoint that I think might be confusing some people?

"In my dreams, I'm on the arena balcony. Geonosis. Orange glare slices shadow from my eyes. Below on the sand: Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Senator Padme Amidala. On the rough-shaped stone within reach of my arm: Nute Gunray. Within reach of my blade: Jango Fett. And Master Dooku. No. Master no more. Count Dooku. I may never get used to calling him that. Even in dreams.

Jango Fett bristles with weapons. An instinctive killer: the deadliest man in the galaxy. Jango can kill me in less than a second. I know it. Even if I had never seen Kenobi's report from Kamino, I can feel the violence Jango radiates: in the Force, a pulsar of death. But I do it right. My blade doesn't light the underside of Fett's square jaw. I don't waste time with words. I don't hesitate. I believe.

In my dreams, the purple flare of my blade sizzles the gray hairs of Dooku's beard, and in the critical semisecond it takes Jango Fett to aim and fire, I twitch that blade and take Dooku with me into death. And save the galaxy from civil war. I could have done it."

egads: I meant the quote from Dark Rendevous, about only Mace, perhaps, could challenge dooku on even ground.

I thought that was from Dooku's perspective.

Originally posted by truejedi
egads: I meant the quote from Dark Rendevous, about only Mace, perhaps, could challenge dooku on even ground.

I thought that was from Dooku's perspective. Ah. That statement was from the narrator's point of view..

"As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground."


Though imo, Mace would be Dooku's definitive superior, IF he fully embraced Vaapad.

So if he pulled a Bulq and fell to the Dark Side?

^ If he fought to the same 'standard' as when he battled Sidious.

I see no reason to believe that Mace is necessarily Dooku's superior.

I tend to see things rather neutral, and I don't understand why Mace would be dooku's superior?

From what I've read both dooku and mace have their strong points, but from all I've read It just seems Dooku is overall if all their respective stats were added up, that dooku would come out on top of Windu's total?

Could some one also explain to me why Windu is held so high in opinion on this forum? I don't read much of the mythos, except for playing the games, and reading forums and wookiepedia.

Such as claims that Windu is superior to any dark sider due to vaapad? I thought vaapad was a juyo based fighting style with the addition of the user tapping their dark side potential and channeling it? But don't sith users already do this? Or is it that vaapad users, channel their opponents dark side energy through their own self and use it against their adversary? If this is the case, I still don't see vaapad as being a instant win against dark siders. As it would have a limit depending upon the user of it, and if his opponent is vastly stronger then him and deeply rooted in the dark side, I see vaapad as being able to channel only what the user of it is able to handle.

Any thoughts on this? Gideon what do you think? I just don't understand how people view windu/vaapad the way they do, am I missing some thing, or some quote perhaps from a text?

Also while on the subject, did sidious purposely lose the saber fight to windu, and feign weakness with his force lightening? Or did George Lucas ever state in cannon statement that Sidious was defeated in saber combat without him throwing the fight?

Also could Sidious have killed Windu with his lightening, or was he truly unable to overcome Windu reflecting it? And did Sidious become disfigured because of the lightening being deflected? or was that his true form all along?

Originally posted by Board Walker
I tend to see things rather neutral, and I don't understand why Mace would be dooku's superior?
Well, Dooku was absolutely awed by Palpatine's power and skill and clearly realized his inferiority to him....yet Mace beat Palpatine. This alone would lead me to believe that Mace would also beat Dooku.

Forgoing that though, there is the style difference to take into account - Dooku using Makashi which does not generate enough kinetic energy in order to combat successfully the more aggressive forms....and Vaapad being the most aggressive and arguably the most powerful form. The naturally powerful form added onto Mace Windu's "I crush and rip durasteel battle droids with my bare hands" Force-assisted strength.

So....yeah.

Why Mace is held in high esteem:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A07WNupEXk

Originally posted by Board Walker
So I have some questions regarding dooku

1. He was stated to be superior to mace in sabers prior to leaving the order?

2. He was superior to all in the force of his time save for yoda?

3. When he went to dakrside he became more powerful?

4. Did he refine/perfect/evolve makashi over the time he left to when he fought in the triology?

5. In one of the books mace stated he would likely lose/die if he fought and engaged dooku even though he mace had the element of surprise on his side?

6. Was dooku more powerful then mace windu in sabers and force? Or is it never directly stated?

7. Going by statements , clues alone since mace feared dooku didn't want to fight him, thought he would lose, does this mean dooku was his superior?

8. Could vaapad harm dooku much?

1. Well, before leaving the Order Dooku was stated to be able to outduel Mace, although I don't think that whether or not he could consistently was made clear.

2. As of in between TPM and AOTC (in between TPM and AOTC is when Dooku left the Order), Yoda > Dooku, Sidious > Dooku, and Mace by this point possibly > Dooku.

3. Apparently according to a quote, yes.

4. Yes, Dooku had already mastered Makashi and a bunch of other forms by the time he left the Order.

5. I'm not sure about this quote, sorry.

6. I don't think that Dooku was directly stated to be > Mace at all.

7. Not necessarily; you can be superior to some enemy and still fear them.

8. When Dooku fell to the dark side, yes, Mace once he had completed making and mastering Vapaad would be superior to Dooku in most cases.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
1. Well, before leaving the Order Dooku was stated to be able to outduel Mace, although I don't think that whether or not he could consistently was made clear.

"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective." - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, 112.

I believe Dooku left the Order before Mace perfected Vaapad.

Him beating Palpatine.



Vaapad enabled him to overcome the most powerful sith lord in history.



ROTS and Shatterpoint.



Mace used Vaapad to tie Sidious.
Mace used Shatterpoint to beat Sidious.

Then Sidious threw the force fight.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Well, Dooku was absolutely awed by Palpatine's power and skill and clearly realized his inferiority to him....yet Mace beat Palpatine. This alone would lead me to believe that Mace would also beat Dooku.

Forgoing that though, there is the style difference to take into account - Dooku using Makashi which does not generate enough kinetic energy in order to combat successfully the more aggressive forms....and Vaapad being the most aggressive and arguably the most powerful form. The naturally powerful form added onto Mace Windu's "I crush and rip durasteel battle droids with my bare hands" Force-assisted strength.

So....yeah.


Originally posted by Enyalus
"In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective." - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, 112.

I believe Dooku left the Order before Mace perfected Vaapad. "" again.

An argument could be made that Mace never truly perfected Vaapad until he stopped fearing his own darkness, and fully gave himself over to the form (RotS.)

It's also worth mentioning that we have no idea when Dooku bested Mace. Could have been when Mace was just a Padawan -- could have been just before Dooku left the order (the same year TPM occurred.) We just don't know. What we do know is that Dooku was 30 years older than Mace. That could certainly account for quite an experience edge/advantage (especially if these duels took place in Mace's younger years.)

Originally posted by Shoes
Mace used Vaapad to tie Sidious.
Mace used Shatterpoint to beat Sidious.

Then Sidious threw the force fight. Which was still ineffective until Ankakin intervened.

Originally posted by Galan007


Which was still ineffective until Ankakin intervened.

Notice how he threw it after Anakin arrived. Sidious could have kept going. Notice how Mace was visibly struggling in the film. Notice how the novel states that he could not continue. Notice that in the split second that it took for Anakin to cut off his arm, Palpatine stood up and blasted him with lightning.

^ Actions speak louder than words. ie. regardless of Mace saying that he could not keep going, he did in fact keep going until Palpatine's FL dropped/he literally melted...

" had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease-""

The quote regarding Mace's defeat at Dooku's hands is binding, but isn't extremely specific or detailed. First, it could have happened prior to Windu's completion of Vaapad. Second, it could have been in a series of duels or sparring matches and Dooku would only have needed to win one of them in order for the quote to be valid. Third, both combatants have matured and evolved since then, and not necessarily at an identical pace.

That said, I'm not sure I want to just assume that Windu is the Count's superior. As Enyalus points out, Mace did defeat Sidious and Dooku was terrified of Palpatine and his dark powers (Dark Rendezvous), but given that Sidious was far more attuned to the dark side of the Force, there may have simply been a fluke advantage that Windu possessed in that duel that would not necessarily be present if Windu were to fight Dooku.

I'd say that they're equals, all things considered.

Originally posted by Gideon
That said, I'm not sure I want to just assume that Windu is the Count's superior. As Enyalus points out, Mace did defeat Sidious and Dooku was terrified of Palpatine and his dark powers (Dark Rendezvous), but given that Sidious was far more attuned to the dark side of the Force, there may have simply been a fluke advantage that Windu possessed in that duel that would not necessarily be present if Windu were to fight Dooku.

I'd say that they're equals, all things considered. It's possible, but imo Mace would ultimately come out on top.

Remember, during Dooku's battle with Anakin, one of the main reasons he began to falter was because Makashi just did not possess enough kinetic force to compete with the raw power Anakin's Djem So brought to the table...

" was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head." - RotS

That same inherent drawback with Makashi would be especially present vs. Mace (as Vaapad arguably possesses the most raw power of any form.) Not only that, but Mace would also be tapping Dooku's own darkness to further empower himself/Vaapad in battle..... And there's also that pesky Shatterpoint to think about.

I dunno, it just seems like Mace has advantages of which are hard to imagine Dooku getting around. srug

I don't buy that. I have about zero faith in the Djem So-vs-Makashi argument, simply because we've seen on-screen and in the novels that Count Dooku is capable of holding Anakin and Obi-Wan at bay simultaneously; the novelization is canon, sure, but while Djem So might generate more kinetic energy than Makashi, that doesn't mean that Dooku is helpless against a physically stronger adversary -- this is, after all, the man who casually sparred with General Grievous. What Makashi may lack in kinetic power it makes up for in efficiency, economy, and speed.

Furthermore, Anakin is unlike most other duelists in that he actually grows stronger as a battle progresses. Dooku had much more trouble with Skywalker's vastly superior Force reserves than he did with Anakin's sheer physical strength; whatever can be said of Windu, I don't believe that he has a superior command of the Force or superior Force reserves than Count Dooku.

Like I said, my conclusion here might very well be the result of the perceived stupidity in making Mace Windu Count Dooku's flat-out superior, especially since everything else at least implies that they're equals.

Originally posted by Gideon
Like I said, my conclusion here might very well be the result of the perceived stupidity

the thing that doesn't imply their equality is Mace beating a Sidious who terrified Dooku.

TJ
the thing that doesn't imply their equality is Mace beating a Sidious who terrified Dooku.

Mace defeated Palpatine in a lightsaber duel under a precise set of circumstances; nowhere is it indicated or stated that he is Palpatine's superior by way of skill or power.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Actions speak louder than words. ie. regardless of Mace saying that he could not keep going, he did in fact keep going until Palpatine's FL dropped/he literally melted...

" had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease-""

The omnicient narrarator claims that Mace had no strength left. I infer from this that Mace could not keep going for an extended period of time. This quote alone proves that his force assault was quite "effective", and left Windu drained afterwords.

Moreover, it makes absolutely no sense if Palpatine actually lost the force battle. Mace had to have his energy pass through him, and then be redirected back at Palpatine, whereas Palpatine absorbed his pain and turned it into more power. Mace has a limit here, Palpatine does not.

Originally posted by Gideon
Mace defeated Palpatine in a lightsaber duel under a precise set of circumstances; nowhere is it indicated or stated that he is Palpatine's superior by way of skill or power.

What were those circumstances?

what circumstances made it an unrepeatable result?

He won't always find his shatterpoint? That's the only one I can think of.

1. Palpatine was thirteen years out of practice; Windu, on the other hand, had participated in duels and combat regularly.

2. Windu had three other Jedi Masters with him when the duel began, Palpatine targeted the other three first and displayed initial superiority by taking on Windu and Fisto simultaneously and then pushing Windu back.

3. Anakin's presence; while I'm not suggesting that Palpatine threw the fight to Mace, it is painfully obvious that he exaggerated his weakness and his defeat in order to force Anakin's hand.

^ Windu's defeat of Palpatine was legitimate, but nowhere was it said or implied or shown that Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior in anything.

Originally posted by Gideon
Mace defeated Palpatine in a lightsaber duel under a precise set of circumstances; nowhere is it indicated or stated that he is Palpatine's superior by way of skill or power.
In Lucas' first draft (April 13, 2003) he writes, "they fight and MACE knocks PALPATINE's lightsaber away....MACE is winning, pushing the Sith Lord toward the window and his death."

Looks like Lucas wished to indicate Mace's superior skill.

GIDEON THOSE ARE WEAK CIRCUMSTANCES. FEW OF THEM INDICATE THAT MACE'S ADVANTAGES WILL NOT APPLY TO A BATTLE WITH DOOKU. OTHERS FAIL TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR ASSERTION THAT MACE'S VICTORY IS INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO DECLARE HIM SUPERIOR TO PALPATINE.

Originally posted by Gideon
1. Palpatine was thirteen years out of practice; Windu, on the other hand, had participated in duels and combat regularly.

Out of curiosity where is this stated? From a logical standpoint it was would make sense that staying in top fighting shape would be imperative toward surviving the overthrow of the Republic. A genius such as Palpatine is surely not foolish enough to assume that none of the Jedi could possibly survive Order 66 and reach him?

Doing well against a group of fighters does not in itself suggest superiority toward any of them in a 1 vs 1 scenario. In fact looking at the amount of 1v3 and 1v2 matches throughout the mythos, the lone combatant almost always does better against the group then after he whittles them down to just one person.



Well, personally. Considering that GL said something along the line of you needing to be Yoda or Mace to defeat Sideous, not you need to be Yoda or Mace to defeat Sideous when he is throwing the fight, I feel that GL at least thinks that Mace possesses the necessary skill to defeat Sideous.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Out of curiosity where is this stated? From a logical standpoint it was would make sense that staying in top fighting shape would be imperative toward surviving the overthrow of the Republic. A genius such as Palpatine is surely not foolish enough to assume that none of the Jedi could possibly survive Order 66 and reach him?


ROTS.

The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid,
and not all of it was neuranium.
Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had
been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute
darkness-darkness beyond darkness-for decades.
Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.

He hadn't touched his saber in decades.




He killed two master swordsmen while Mace could only raise his blade. If Palpatine had chosen to engage Mace first, he probably could have gutted him there.



Yes. All Jedi technically are capable of killing Sidious, as they are equipped with a lightsaber. GL is simply stating that they both can kill him. The difference between them and every other ROTS era Jedi, is that they pose a significantly larger threat to him. This doesn't necessarily translate into a victory.

Originally posted by Shoes
ROTS.

The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid,
and not all of it was neuranium.
Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had
been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute
darkness-darkness beyond darkness-for decades.
Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.

He hadn't touched his saber in decades.

What part of that is a quote and what isn't?




Well apparently anyone is capable of gutting someone else as long as they possess lightsabers.




The problem with you making such a cute little statement is that it conveniently excludes the first half of the statement, which is that only yoda and mace of the PT order were capable of beating him. Thus, the addition of a lightsaber is obviously not the only requirement.

In the words of the great Shao Kahn: You have failed!

FAIIILLEEDDD!

Probably the stuff in italics?


Goddammit. This would've helped a few days ago.

I had hoped that that wasn't the case, as it doesn't mean much.

"Decades" means multiple decades. Anything less than two decades does not count under "decades". So that would mean that he hadn't touched his lightsaber in at least twenty years.

That is something that I have trouble believing, considering that he trained two apprentices within those twenty years.

What that quote says to me, is that he had multiple lightsabers. That conclusion also has a logical backing.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Goddammit. This would've helped a few days ago.

Originally posted by Shoes
ROTS.

The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid,
and not all of it was neuranium.
Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had
been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute
darkness-darkness beyond darkness-for decades.
Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.

He hadn't touched his saber in decades.





That quote won't do as proof. Sidious obviously had another saber, since he lost that saber in his fight with Mace, and used another against Yoda.

First, Labyrinth of Evil outright confirms that Palpatine didn't have anything to do with Count Dooku's lightsaber training, since Dooku was already a master swordsman.

Second, nothing indicates or states that Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior. As mentioned before, Palpatine displayed superiority early on in the duel; he slaughtered two of Windu's team before Windu could intervene and then took Fisto and Mace on simultaneously; both of them together weren't enough to defeat him.

It was only when Windu submerged himself in Vaapad was he only able to equal the Sith.

Third, there clearly isn't any evidence suggesting that Palpatine had kept up his dueling practice so far.

RE: Blaxican
Well, personally. Considering that GL said something along the line of you needing to be Yoda or Mace to defeat Sideous, not you need to be Yoda or Mace to defeat Sideous when he is throwing the fight, I feel that GL at least thinks that Mace possesses the necessary skill to defeat Sideous.

The correct word is "compete," not defeat.

Yet the word GL uses on the DVD of RotS, is "overpower".

Hes more powerful than revan.

Hybris
Yet the word GL uses on the DVD of RotS, is "overpower".

And if we had the reasoning skills of a five year old, that might be enough. No one denied that he was overpowered, but that does not confirm or suggest that Windu is as powerful or more powerful than the Emperor.

Well ofcourse Sidious is more powerful... My point is that he has what it takes to defeat Sidious. He doesn't have to be stronger to defeat him.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican

Well apparently anyone is capable of gutting someone else as long as they possess lightsabers.


Correct. However GL said nothing about their chances of killing Palpatine, only that they could. Every Jedi could kill Palpatine. The quote is irrelevant. Whereas if Palpatine could kill two master swordsmen before Mace can react, it's a sure bet that Palpatine can do the same to Windu.



?

You seem to think because GL doesn't state something, that makes it irrelevant and baseless. Using this logic, nobody is physically capable of cutting Palpatine's head off, aside from Mace and Yoda. I guess nobody is capable of killing an unarmed, bound, and force-severed Palpatine.

Originally posted by Gideon
And if we had the reasoning skills of a five year old, that might be enough. No one denied that he was overpowered, but that does not confirm or suggest that Windu is as powerful or more powerful than the Emperor.

Well sure if you want to use technicalities and squirm around like you've been doing for the past few posts in here.

Originally posted by Shoes
Whereas if Palpatine could kill two master swordsmen before Mace can react, it's a sure bet that Palpatine can do the same to Windu.

Except that it actually isn't.





No.

Blax
Well sure if you want to use technicalities and squirm around like you've been doing for the past few posts in here.

You've been unusually caustic in our past few exchanges; please take your racial insecurities elsewhere. It's hardly my fault that this is still a honkey's world.

In any case, I didn't get a quote completely wrong (like you) nor am I ignoring blatant circumstances (like you).

The fact remains that Palpatine was Supreme Chancellor of the Republic and hardly possessed the time (given his demanding schedule ) or the inclination (Dooku was already a master swordsman and Labyrinth of Evil confirms that Sidious did not waste time training him further in that department), not to mention the surprising lack of evidence suggesting that he trained with his lightsaber at all, seems to indicate that he was out of practice.

As Shoes pointed out, Mace had four to one odds (a team of celebrated swordsmen), preparation, and relatively confined space would should have worked to his advantage, given the level of coordination and cohesion presumably available to Jedi Masters.

Despite those advantages, two of Mace's entourage were killed in the same amount of seconds, and despite Fisto's active assistance, Mace was unable to defeat Palpatine until (as per the novelization) he submerged himself into Vaapad.

Skill-wise and power-wise, you've failed to deliver anything that Windu is Palpatine's equal or superior.

Now I'm clearly right and you're clearly wrong, but this needn't interrupt our sexual relationship.

Originally posted by Shoes
Mace had to have his energy pass through him, and then be redirected back at Palpatine, whereas Palpatine absorbed his pain and turned it into more power. Mace has a limit here, Palpatine does not. Yet Palpatine is the one who gave out first... mmm

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I had hoped that that wasn't the case, as it doesn't mean much.

"Decades" means multiple decades. Anything less than two decades does not count under "decades". So that would mean that he hadn't touched his lightsaber in at least twenty years.

That is something that I have trouble believing, considering that he trained two apprentices within those twenty years.

What that quote says to me, is that he had multiple lightsabers. That conclusion also has a logical backing. The quote in question only pertains to that particular lightsaber hidden within that particular statue... As TJ said, Palps was not limited to a single blade.

Gideon (although you might still have me on ignore):

1. If Sidious was out of practice for so many years as you suggest, then wouldn't that be evidence that Mace, an extremely skilled duelist who invented his own form that was among the deadliest ever invented and constantly fought in the Clone Wars, would be Sidious's superior in technical lightsaber skill?

2. Sidious arguably had more preperation for the fight than Mace. Mace had to hurry and gather a team against a foe of whose level he knows virtually nothing about, whereas Sidious likely studied Mace and knew how powerful he was.

Originally posted by Gideon
You've been unusually caustic in our past few exchanges; please take your racial insecurities elsewhere. It's hardly my fault that this is still a honkey's world.

Lock up your daughter, lock up your wife. Lock up your back door and run for your life.

I am going to rape everyone you love. Including your pets.



No, YOU.



Wait, are you insinuating that a master can not learn, or expand? That's illogical, especially considering that sparring is the best way to keep lightsaber skills up. Also, you're dancing. On the one hand you state that Sideous is too busy to do any kind of training, but on the other hand you specify only lightsaber training.

You also cleverly ignore Maul. Nigga.



Lack of evidence can not "suggest", or indicate, anything. This is why the defense can not get by just by shooting down the persecution's evidence.





There's also the fact that it's way harder to not accidentally chop your friends face off when the both of you are attacking the same target, and even more hard when there's four of you. Masters or not, accidents happen, and caution is nescesarry.





Hahaha. And you say you're not ignoring circumstances!



Shut up. You're not even my real dad.

I will pwn you soon.

I will not be here soon!

Originally posted by Gideon
Second, nothing indicates or states that Windu was Palpatine's equal or superior. As mentioned before, Palpatine displayed superiority early on in the duel; he slaughtered two of Windu's team before Windu could intervene and then took Fisto and Mace on simultaneously; both of them together weren't enough to defeat him.
I agree. And to back up this point, the Episode III Visual Dictionary states that "Darth Sidious isn't worried about any Jedi who managed to survive Order 66. Even united, Yoda and Obi-Wan pose no threat..." This is the same Yoda who is, per Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, "the Order's true master of lightsaber combat." Ergo, if Yoda doesn't possess more skill than Sidious, then certainly Mace does not. Likewise with Force power.

Originally posted by Gideon
Mace was unable to defeat Palpatine until (as per the novelization) he submerged himself into Vaapad.

Skill-wise and power-wise, you've failed to deliver anything that Windu is Palpatine's equal or superior.


That sounds like a contradictio in terminis to me. He was able to defeat Palpatine by using a skill that Palpatine wasn't able to counter. Wouldn't that mean that he was superior, skill-wise (at least when it came to lightsabers, and at the time of their duel, rusty saber skills set aside)?

Anyway, sometimes I get the feeling these threads are about criticising other people's way of reasoning than actually sharing knowledge about Star Wars

Originally posted by Enyalus
I agree. And to back up this point, the Episode III Visual Dictionary states that "Darth Sidious isn't worried about any Jedi who managed to survive Order 66. Even united, Yoda and Obi-Wan pose no threat..." This is the same Yoda who is, per Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, "the Order's true master of lightsaber combat." Ergo, if Yoda doesn't possess more skill than Sidious, then certainly Mace does not. Likewise with Force power. Okay, then what exactly are we equating Vaapad to? Skill or power? I ask because Mace's use of Vaapad made he and Sidious no less than equals (with Shatterpoint being the factor that made Mace superior.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Okay, then what exactly are we equating Vaapad to? Skill or power? I ask because Mace's use of Vaapad made he and Sidious no less than equals (with Shatterpoint being the factor that made Mace superior.)
As Vaapad is a lightsaber form, I'd call it a skill. Fully submerged in Vaapad, he was equal to the Emperor's speed and power....but only because the skill of Vaapad allowed him to duplicate the Emperor's speed. So uh, even though Vaapad's skill is Mace's own, it really took Mace's skill plus Palpatine's own power being borrowed in order to simply equal him. So I don't know, how would you see that/what would you call it?

I'd call Shatterpoint a Force talent.

Originally posted by Enyalus
As Vaapad is a lightsaber form, I'd call it a skill. Fully submerged in Vaapad, he was equal to the Emperor's speed and power....but only because the skill of Vaapad allowed him to duplicate the Emperor's speed. So uh, even though Vaapad's skill is Mace's own, it really took Mace's skill plus Palpatine's own power being borrowed in order to simply equal him. So I don't know, how would you see that/what would you call it?

I'd call Shatterpoint a Force talent. Regardless of the 'mechanics' of Vaapad, it is still a form of lightsaber combat (as you said.) Thus I personally think it's logical/fair to say that Mace = Palpatine from a skill standpoint... Tbh, I don't know what else you could call it. /shrug

Agreed.