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The common stated weakness for it is that it fails against raw power styles, I find this ridiculous. what if a person such as anakin became a makashi duelist or mace windu? Both are physically strong, and I imagine they using makashi would not be overwhelmed by brute strength.

Makashi to me seems to focus on precision, skill, speed, so with that said, why could not a makashi user just out manuever the enemy blade and then strike them in open spots. Or if forced into direct contact, just fight using their own strength and still have precision, skill, aim? Or does being upclose in the fray make a makashi user lose intelligence....

I just don't see why one could not combine makashis speed, footwork, precision, aim, skill, with ones own natural strength, force powers.

say if windu were a makashi user could he not combine his super strength with its super precision and use his speed to basically one shot people while efotlessly dodging?

Makashi isn't inherently weak against styles with more kinetic power, that's a micsonception. Dooku with one hand effortlessly parried two simultaneous strikes from Obi-Wan and Anakin and did it with such proficiency that it threw them both off balance. It's not a weak style.

The problem is not so much the strength of the individual but rather the fact that the style doesn't USE a lot of strength while doing Makashi. Makashi is ALL about quick light lightning blows meant to disorganize and weaken the enemy. As such, you don't put much of your weight into any given strike.

And you theoretically COULD create a super-Makashi, it would just be very, VERY difficult.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I just don't see why one could not combine makashis speed, footwork, precision, aim, skill, with ones own natural strength, force powers.

say if windu were a makashi user could he not combine his super strength with its super precision and use his speed to basically one shot people while efotlessly dodging?
Makashi often uses a one-handed grip. That means, inherently, no matter how strong you are, you're never going to strike as powerfully or as fast (if slashing, not thrusting) as if you were using two hands behind the blows.

It's pretty much that simple.

Makashi isn't WEAK. who believes that? Cause they be high on opium.

Makashi is a fencing style. The ONLY reason Dooku was overwhelmed by anakin's strength was that anaking was tapping the force and was REALLY FREAKING strong at that moment. Dooku wasn't going to be able to counter his strength at that point with any style.

So why do people believe makashi suffers against high kinetic force styles? If makashi is able to deal with high kinetic saber styles by redirecting the kinetic force, such as you say he did simultaneously to kenobi and anakin? Then what's the deal? Because from what I see makashi doesn't seem inherently weak vs strong styles at all....

Originally posted by Board Walker
So why do people believe makashi suffers against high kinetic force styles?
Because it's canon that it does, indeed, suffer against high kinetic lightsaber forms. Because an official LTD employee wrote it.

Board Walker: Really because Makashi generally is a highly defensive style and doesn't work as well as one would like when somebody starts going for the kill and literally whaling on you (like what Anakin did to Dooku on the Invisible Hand).

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Board Walker: Really because Makashi generally is a highly defensive style and doesn't work as well as one would like when somebody starts going for the kill and literally whaling on you (like what Anakin did to Dooku on the Invisible Hand).
*wailing

although I suppose that the Japanese would probably whale someone like Gideon's mom... *snap*

Originally posted by Board Walker

Makashi to me seems to focus on precision, skill, speed, so with that said, why could not a makashi user just out manuever the enemy blade and then strike them in open spots.

You can, that's what they try and do.

It's a "weakness" but it still requires a good duelist to pull off and Makashi is still one of the best styles in a duel IMO.



It doesn't make them lose intelligence but the move set is less well suited for direct contact and different grips that give more strength may have less precision.

Originally posted by Q99
It doesn't make them lose intelligence but the move set is less well suited for direct contact and different grips that give more strength may have less precision.
I'm definitely showing my nerdiness here, but my cousin and I bought some nerf swords (http://www.target.com/Nerf-N-Force-Shadow-Fury-Sword/dp/B001LRPNBW) and pretend like they're lightsabers in the backyard. I have one and use my sort of...improvised Makashi (plus I love doing the salute and flourish), because I used to fence (I won gold metals at major Florida tournaments in 2005 and 2004), and my cousin bought two of them and tried to use the Galen Marek Shien style with two blades. Not a lot of power with Marek's style and its very difficult to block with. I dominated him easily when he tried it. So we went to Home Depot, got a PVC pipe and cut a longer hilt for him out of it. He put the hilt of his swords in both of the openings so that he has what looks like a double-bladed lightsaber, and tried out some of Maul's moves (he's a drummer and is ridiculously good at spinning the hilt in his hand).

Anyway, long story short is it was A LOT more difficult to beat him with my improvised Makashi when he was using that style for a few reasons. But the main one was that most of his hits were two-handed. I ended up losing my sword four times in about 25 minutes of sparring. So canonical applications aside, the practical applications support those conclusions.





In hindsight, I have no idea why I'm sharing this...lol

En, you've forgotten that the blades were not weightless. So your swords were trying to stop some amount of force (the mass of the blade times the acceleration of the blade).

Dooku doesn't have that problem.

A lightsaber blade still transfers kinetic energy...And that kinetic energy translates into newtons, and thus force.

Elaborate.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Elaborate.
"Although the blade was weightless, two-handed slashes were the most common movement. This was because inertia was still needed to cut through solid objects. Solid objects were repelled by the blade arc until they were changed to gas or plasma. Therefore, inertia was required to counteract the initial repelling force. The stronger the swing, the faster and easier the blade would cut. If little force was applied to the swing, the repelling force of the blade arc would leave shallow cuts. When two lightsaber blades came in contact with each other, the two repelling forces made the blade appear to be solid. If the lightsaber is dropped, the blade will retract automatically, so the user will not be injured.

Also, the field that caused the energy to arc back into the blade caused some gyroscopic effects. While technically weightless, the blade still had some resistance to changes in motion. The slight gyroscopic effects were easily controlled by a trained force user, but could become problematic for lay person."

I got that from Wookie, though.

Woah! A scientific concept used incorrectly in a science fiction franchise! Who would have guessed?






















I'm not really gonna criticize the "strong/fast" dichotomy between forms; the division is clearly useful (as it is seen onscreen) and nitpicking using real-world physix is a bigger waste of time than usual.

As Quanchi of the Comics Vs. would say...

Concession accepted. biscuits

What style would Obi-wan/Vader's fight in ANH constitute? Somebody earlier here said Makashi is a fencing style. Did both Vader and Kenobi use that on the Death Star? (granted the PT saber fights were much different than OT, and saber styles weren't classified around when the OT period was produced by GL, or were they?)

Vader's style was a custom blend of Form V and Form III. With elements of other forms mixed in. Although that hadn't been defined yet at the time of ANH.

Neither combatant's style even remotely resembles Makashi in that fight, though. It was definitely far from elegant.

Originally posted by Enyalus
A lightsaber blade still transfers kinetic energy...And that kinetic energy translates into newtons, and thus force.

Yea. The weight of a blade isn't the primary factor of how strong it hits, it's still carrying the force of the arm and body behind it.

So if makashi is weak vs strong forms, its weak vs half of the forms? Juyo, vaapad, djem? This doesn't seem right to me....

Makashi seems very deadly to me, more so then vaapad or jyo which is more wild. Makashi is based on speed, precision, biut why can't it also be power, like why can not one use vaapad with makashi? Channel their inner darkness into their makashi for power,speed, as well as its natural precision, deadliness?

Board Walker:

"So if makashi is weak vs strong forms, its weak vs half of the forms? Juyo, vaapad, djem? This doesn't seem right to me...."

Again, this is where we get off the strictly doctrinaire issues, because in the end much lies on the individual skills and style of the combatants and how well they can do things like adapt to sudden changes, read their opponent, etc. As a general rule, though, Makashi does not do well against styles that get "in your face" and which feature constant relentless attacking. This is NOT to say that a Makashi user cannot survive such a strategy, particularly if they are good and their opponent is not so, but this is a general rule, like "Battleships usually cannot defeat Aircraft carriers."

"Makashi is based on speed, precision, biut why can't it also be power"

Because it really isn't FOCUSED on landing powerful hits, but rather on nickel-and-diming the opponent by countering their attacks and waiting until they get sufficiently tired to actually finish off. For much of the fight it focuses more on harassment and defense than on attack.

But what if it were a attack based makashi, aiming for vital and deadly precise hits, instead of nickel and diming.

What iif one were to channel their inner darkness into it as well, like vaapad, to buff their speed, strength and power, would that be possible? A blend of vaapad and makashi?

I think the misconception is that Makashi is always weak against a form that utilizes greater physical strength and kinetic energy.

Count Dooku would pimpsmack the vast majority of such individuals.

That's what I mean...I also believe a master of kakashi would defeat most othe forms, including vaapad, and juyo. I think dookus main reasons for losing to anakin were psychological, underestimating, not retreating, going brute blows vs blows, rather then parrying and redirecting the kinetic force of his opponent makashi specializes in?

I for one think a makashi /vaapad hybrid would be amaing, or say if sidious was a makashi master, he could use his mass dark side energy to buff his makashi blows right?

I really see no reason makashi is weak vs strong forms, the user could just redirect strong kinetic hits, dodge, or parry. Or use strong strikes their self by using their force energy to buffer their attacks and using momentum from speed.

Makashi isn't weak... Not by a long shot.

Granted it was stated that Dooku's Makashi didn't possess the kinetic power to meet Anakin's Djem So head to head, but that was Anakin's Djem So -- the same Anakin who was tapping so much force energy that he was compared to a "thermonuclear furnace" of which Dooku feared ever going supercritical (which he ultimately did anyway.)

But yeah, in an all things being equal match, I'd give the nod to a master of Makashi over a master of Djem So every single time.

Originally posted by Galan007
But yeah, in an all things being equal match, I'd give the nod to a master of Makashi over a master of Djem So every single time.
Right. I'm positive that in a typical match between the two, Djem So's power wouldn't come off as being an advantage because of Makashi's ability to deflect the blade without flat-out blocking it head-on. Power would be irrelevant, then. But Anakin was so fast Dooku perceived the air in front of him as being painted blue with his lightsaber glow. Definitely not the standard Djem So user.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Right. I'm positive that in a typical match between the two, Djem So's power wouldn't come off as being an advantage because of Makashi's ability to deflect the blade without flat-out blocking it head-on. Power would be irrelevant, then. But Anakin was so fast Dooku perceived the air in front of him as being painted blue with his lightsaber glow. Definitely not the standard Djem So user. Yep. Anakin was simply more powerful -- that's the main reason he won. Realistically, ALL forms would be hindered to at least some degree if their user(s) were combating a more powerful opponent. That said, Dooku could have been using any form of lightsaber combat (sans perhaps Vaapad) and he would have been tooled just the same.

...Though Makashi was likely the best form Dooku could have been using in that situation (saber to saber) -- but against Anakin's raw power, it counted for nothing.

I think Soresu would've been better, personally. I mean, Obi-Wan was definitely weaker than Vader on Mustafar, and it showed in the novel, yet he had none of the trouble Dooku had dealing with it.

Simplicity and Dooku don't mix, though.

I've always wondered if General Grievous went all out in his sparring matches with Dooku?

I'm only ask because after GG kicked up his striking speed to 20 per second, it was enough to overwhelm even Obi-Wan's Soresu. Dooku, on the other hand, casually dueled with GG as though he were a skilless feeb.

These post have provided much understanding and broad insight. However why is it in the versus matches people say vaapad is the best and would trump dookus makashi due to raw power every time? Makashi is designed to nulify power.

I don't see vaapad mace as more powerful or faster then anakin when they dueled, or was he? I'm not making statements, I'm asking, that's why I post here to learn. Would dookus makashi be able to beat mace"s vaapad?

Also is vaapad esentially juyo+ability to channel inner darkness? But don't dark side juyo users already do that? What's the diff bw a vaapad user and master juyo user?

Oooo let's say a master of makashi vs a master of vaapad fought, both equal level, which would win going by saber form?

Originally posted by Galan007
I've always wondered if General Grievous went all out in his sparring matches with Dooku?

I'm only ask because after GG kicked up his striking speed to 20 per second, it was enough to overwhelm even Obi-Wan's Soresu. Dooku, on the other hand, casually dueled with GG as though he were a skilless feeb.
I have to assume it was just that - sparring. I mean, remember in ROTS when Dooku still thinks Obi-Wan is using Ataru and runs through a set of sequences designed to get Obi-Wan to jump into the air so he can kill him? Obi-Wan blocks every strike without even moving his feet. And for the rest of the match he does well lightsaber-to-lightsaber against him. That'd suggest to me that at the very least, Obi-Wan's Soresu was on par with Dooku's Makashi speed-wise.

Board Walker: Dooku's Makashi is never going to beat Mace's Vaapad, because Dooku is a Dark Sider and that's Vaapad's bread and butter.

Also general grievous strength wise and speed wise was on windus level? If so how was dooku able to fight him so easily...its things like these that make me think makashi would beat heavy kinetic styles, and that its loss to djem so was based upon special circumstances via anakin?

Hmm so if dooku was same skill level in rots, but was a grey jedi, not darkside just outcast, would his makashi beat vaapad since its not dark side?

Originally posted by Board Walker
Hmm so if dooku was same skill level in rots, but was a grey jedi, not darkside just outcast, would his makashi beat vaapad since its not dark side?
If Dooku wasn't drawing on the Dark Side during the match (Grey Jedi can do that), then IMO Dooku's got a good chance at beating Mace and his Vaapad. They're about equals, skill-wise.

I feel kind of compelled to point out another instance of Makashi vs. Djem So aside from Dooku and Anakin.

Jedi Master Valenthyne Farfalla was most likely a master of Makashi, who had months of combat experience fighting and killing Sith opponents at the Battle of Ruusan. Yet even amped by Battle Meditation and joined by other Jedi, he had trouble with Darth Bane (who wielded Djem So.) And once the Battle Meditation was interrupted and Farfalla had to fight Bane one-on-one, Bane easily overwhelmed and killed him.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Would dookus makashi be able to beat mace"s vaapad?

Also is vaapad esentially juyo+ability to channel inner darkness? But don't dark side juyo users already do that? What's the diff bw a vaapad user and master juyo user?

Oooo let's say a master of makashi vs a master of vaapad fought, both equal level, which would win going by saber form? As Eny said, Mace would be able to best Dooku, because Dooku is a dark sider... And Vaapad quite literally eats darkness for lunch.

Vaapad channels the darkness of it's user AND that of the opponent as an offensive 'weapon of the lght' (which is why it is arguably the most powerful form.)

I would still give the nod to Vaapad in an all things being equal match vs. Makashi. Mainly because a user of Vaapad is still free to harness their own inner darkness.

And....

The difference between a Juyo Master and a Vaapad master, in addition to the channeling darkness thing, is that Juyo is an incomplete form. Mace took Juyo, perfected it and made it his own. I imagine Juyo against Vaapad is the difference between a flintlock gun and a gas-powered gun. Same basic principle, with one being the more polished, finished product.

Why can't a makashi channel its own inner darkness as well?

I don't see vaapad as any more developed or indepth then any other form....if juyo was incomplete, which it may have been so in maces perception, but tha doesn't make it so across perceptual reality of all who view it.

I just do not understand how some perceive that vaapad trumps all, or is more refined, powerful, overall better then any other form, especially one specifically for 1v1 saber fighting.

Its already been discussed tha makashi isn't weak vs kinetic force, just dooku was unable to handle "anakins" kinetic force, which was greater then any others at that moment, along with speed?

I see vaapad as being a varient of juyo, one which channels an individuals inner darkness in a cerain way and utilizes it with juyo. I also believe one could so with makashi, or any form. As for using anothers darkness against them, or use their light against them, I see any form being able to do this, all dependent upon the individual.

In essence I see makashi vs vaapad as makashi vs juyo+skill in channeling ones own emotion and or other person/s emotion. The channeling bit being non exclusive to any form, and able to be utilized by any form all dependent upon the indvidual. Light or darkness, an individual could channel their opponents light or darkness given enough skill and practice.

^ Vaapad is the only form that allows it's user to channel their own inner darkness AND their opponent's darkness (if applicable) and use it offensively in battle. Aside from Vaapad, Juyo is the only other form that is 'empowered' by it's user's darkness -- but as Eny said, Juyo is an incomplete and very inefficient form of combat.

Makashi, on the other hand, isn't 'bettered' by darkness.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And....

The difference between a Juyo Master and a Vaapad master, in addition to the channeling darkness thing, is that Juyo is an incomplete form. Mace took Juyo, perfected it and made it his own. I imagine Juyo against Vaapad is the difference between a flintlock gun and a gas-powered gun. Same basic principle, with one being the more polished, finished product.
Questionable. The Jedi considered Juyo to be incomplete, possibly because it relied so heavily upon the user's darker emotions.

Maul seemed to do pretty well with it.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Questionable. The Jedi considered Juyo to be incomplete, possibly because it relied so heavily upon the user's darker emotions.

Maul seemed to do pretty well with it.
Alright then. The difference between a Jedi Juyo Master and a Jedi Vaapad Master is....

Where can you read up on saber forms? Is it as simple as Wookiepedia, or is there a better source?

Wooki is a really good source for general knowledge of the various forms of lightsaber combat. Another great source for the aforementioned is: Jedi vs. Sith - Essential Guide to the Force.

Don't many individuals use their inner darkness/light to power themselves in combat, almost all non vaapad users...didn't sidious do it? Doesn't luke, etc.??

No light side user is supposed to use emotions in combat, either dark emotions or positive ones. If you feel joy during the fight, you're not being a good Jedi. And if you attack out of anger, you're also not a good Jedi. Etc.

So no light sider is supposed to attack with emotions.

What about grey jedi? Orwhat if ajedi feels absolute joy, serenity, ecstacy while fighting and channels it? Or channels their own fear, sadness, etc?

I'm not understanding you, I don't think. Joy or ecstasy while fighting is a no-no for a proper Jedi. Exactly what does serenity or peace feel like? I'm not sure its an emotion at all.

Also, I somehow think that focusing on your own fear or sadness would hinder your ability to fight rather than help it...

They have a saying in Bushido - "Go into battle determined to die, and you shall live to fight again. Go into battle determined to live, and surely you shall not." Being scared and focusing on that is really only going to harm that person. I don't see why they'd want to channel it.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but since lightsabers are apparently mass-less with the exception of the handle why would how hard you hit with it matter?

Originally posted by Board Walker
What about grey jedi? Orwhat if ajedi feels absolute joy, serenity, ecstacy while fighting and channels it?

Then they'd be enjoying hurting someone (or trying to hurt them) which is defintely not a good thing and a sure-fire path to the Dark Side.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Or channels their own fear, sadness, etc?

Fear leads to the Dark Side. Remember Yoda's advice;

"Anger, fear, aggression. Easily they flow. Quick to join you in a fight."

Originally posted by Enyalus
I'm not understanding you, I don't think. Joy or ecstasy while fighting is a no-no for a proper Jedi. Exactly what does serenity or peace feel like? I'm not sure its an emotion at all.

Also, I somehow think that focusing on your own fear or sadness would hinder your ability to fight rather than help it...

They have a saying in Bushido - "Go into battle determined to die, and you shall live to fight again. Go into battle determined to live, and surely you shall not." Being scared and focusing on that is really only going to harm that person. I don't see why they'd want to channel it.

Precisely.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Don't many individuals use their inner darkness/light to power themselves in combat, almost all non vaapad users...didn't sidious do it? Doesn't luke, etc.?? Sith use their own darkness to further empower themselves in battle -- Jedi, for the most part, do not use any emotions in battle (especially the aggressive type.)

But what I don't think you're understanding where Vaapad is concerned is that it's ability to channel your opponent's inner darkness, along with your own, is what sets it apart from any other form. Those abilities are what give Vaapad an advantage against both the Sith (because you can tap their darkness along with your own), and the Jedi (because you can still tap your own darkness and use it against them as a 'weapon of the light'.)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but since lightsabers are apparently mass-less with the exception of the handle why would how hard you hit with it matter?
Someone hasn't been reading the thread very well....From the first page:

Originally posted by Enyalus
"Although the blade was weightless, two-handed slashes were the most common movement. This was because inertia was still needed to cut through solid objects. Solid objects were repelled by the blade arc until they were changed to gas or plasma. Therefore, inertia was required to counteract the initial repelling force. The stronger the swing, the faster and easier the blade would cut. If little force was applied to the swing, the repelling force of the blade arc would leave shallow cuts. When two lightsaber blades came in contact with each other, the two repelling forces made the blade appear to be solid. If the lightsaber is dropped, the blade will retract automatically, so the user will not be injured.

Also, the field that caused the energy to arc back into the blade caused some gyroscopic effects. While technically weightless, the blade still had some resistance to changes in motion. The slight gyroscopic effects were easily controlled by a trained force user, but could become problematic for lay person."

I got that from Wookie, though.

Um...What I didn't copy in that quote which may be confusing for those who read it, is that lightsabers produce a magnetic field which bends the blade back into the emitter after it extends a certain length, thus preventing it from extending indefinitely. That magnetic field is the 'repelling force' and 'blade arc' mentioned above.

Originally posted by SWFan4Life
Where can you read up on saber forms? Is it as simple as Wookiepedia, or is there a better source?

Fightsaber.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Um...What I didn't copy in that quote which may be confusing for those who read it, is that lightsabers produce a magnetic field which bends the blade back into the emitter after it extends a certain length, thus preventing it from extending indefinitely. That magnetic field is the 'repelling force' and 'blade arc' mentioned above.

I seriously doubt that even in SW, something could be completely weightless, with absolutely no mass.

Originally posted by Galan007

I would still give the nod to Vaapad in an all things being equal match vs. Makashi. Mainly because a user of Vaapad is still free to harness their own inner darkness.
I don't agree with this. All forms draw upon the force and thus if the user is a dark sider would draw upon the dark side of the Force. However, Vaapad is so agressive it exclusively draws its power from the ds but I don't think that would make it superior than any other form as drawing upon the ls is not any weaker than the ds. And as I said earlier feasibly any form can draw upon the ds.

Edit: Vaapad's only benefit is it can draw upon the foe's darkness as well.

Board is a hard person to get throught to.. jesus

All the forms see equal to me, with no form being better then another.

I see makashi as being good for precision, speed, dueling, 1v1, but I see its cons as being versus multiple opponents simultaneously, vs non saber weapons.

I see vaapads pros as being high burst power, burst overwhelming aggression, ferociousness, in short try to overwhelm your opponent asap befoe you burn out. However I see its cons as, burns out fastest of any form from drawing heavily upon ds which degrades the user as well as the opponents ds which further degrades the user. Also vaapad is inferior to juyo vs non ds users, in that a juyo user gives in 100% to their emotion, while vaapad skates the umbra of the ds only use the edge of their emotion/ds. So vs a ds user vaapad is superior to juyo potentially..because it uses some of the users ds, and channels some not all of the opponents ds, thus I see vaapad as being only truly viable vs "heavily" saturated ds users, otherwise it isn't at full potential.

I see juyo as being a ferocious, break your opponent asap with full offense, speed, force powers, strength, high burst power due to heavy emotion channeling. Cons are similar to vaapad burns out user fast, so if user out last you for your brief limited burst you likely will lose, I see juyo superiorto vaapadin all ways except vs a extremely heavily saturated ds user. As juyo channels all of the users ds/emotions, and not just skates the umbra. However it doesn't channel their opponents ds as much as vaapad does.

All of the forms have equal pros and cons

Originally posted by Board Walker
I see vaapads pros as being high burst power, burst overwhelming aggression, ferociousness, in short try to overwhelm your opponent asap befoe you burn out. However I see its cons as, burns out fastest of any form from drawing heavily upon ds which degrades the user as well as the opponents ds which further degrades the user. Also vaapad is inferior to juyo vs non ds users, in that a juyo user gives in 100% to their emotion, while vaapad skates the umbra of the ds only use the edge of their emotion/ds. So vs a ds user vaapad is superior to juyo potentially..because it uses some of the users ds, and channels some not all of the opponents ds, thus I see vaapad as being only truly viable vs "heavily" saturated ds users, otherwise it isn't at full potential Your views on Vaapad are skewed.

A.) Your opinion that Vaapad burns out faster than any other form couldn't be further from the truth. Mace (the only true master of Vaapad) never once demonstrated any signs of fatigue due to using Vaapad. Furthermore, it was stated in the RotS novelization that during Mace's battle with Sidious (arguably one of the most impressive duels ever), there was "not even the possibility of fatigue." So yeah...

B.) Vaapad is the refined version of the otherwise incomplete Juyo. It is certainly not inferior.

C.) The reason Mace invented Vaapad was to channel his own darkness into a weapon of the light. It was not created to tap into the power of dark siders -- that was just an added perk. It is perfectly 'viable' vs. light siders.

Oooooo I see now I inderstand, thank you!

So vaapad vs light sider Is same as juyo vs light sider? Tap ones own darkness? But vs dsider its juyo+++?

Originally posted by Board Walker
Oooooo I see now I inderstand, thank you!

So vaapad vs light sider Is same as juyo vs light sider? Tap ones own darkness? But vs dsider its juyo+++? Like I said, Vaapad is the refined version of Juyo, thus it'd likely fair better against a light sider.

Against a darksider, a user of Vaapad can tap the darkness of their opponent along with their own. So yeah "Juyo+++" is fairly accurate in that sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said, Vaapad is the refined version of Juyo, thus it'd likely fair better against a light sider.
Where do you get the idea that it is superior, at least agains t a lightsider, that Juyo? It's simply a variant of form VII. Afterall Djem So is a variant of form V, but it is not superior than Shien.

Originally posted by ares834
Where do you get the idea that it is superior, at least agains t a lightsider, that Juyo? It's simply a variant of form VII. Afterall Djem So is a variant of form V, but it is not superior than Shien. Superior in that it is complete, while Juyo is incomplete.

So vaapad is not truly superior to juyo in any objective way? Its a variation of juyo as djem is to shien?

So how do shien and djem differ? What are the pros and cons of each in comparison of one another?

Similarily, since vaapad is a variation of juyo and not objectively its superior,what are the pros and cons of each in comparison of each other?

I would be very thankful to hear what you think on the matter ares834!

If you only want opinions that agree with yours, Board Walker, then say so and get it over with.

You're clutching at grains of sand.

Opinions that only agree with mine?that would be silly, I've accepted everyones opinion. However I find the thoughts of and perceptions of others ineresting and thus want a more colored picture of their paradigm before assimilating it with my own.

Did galans agree with my own? No. But I further questioned him to see his perception from different angles to see how it is aplied in varying degrees and situations.

Thus I do the same with others, such as ares now, where you drew the objective conclusion I only want opinions the same as my own, is some thing I would also be interested in undersanding, what is your perception on this? What actions of mine led you to draw this picture?

Originally posted by Board Walker
Thus I do the same with others, such as ares now, where you drew the objective conclusion I only want opinions the same as my own, is some thing I would also be interested in undersanding, what is your perception on this? What actions of mine led you to draw this picture?
You get one opinion from Ares and suddenly are satisfied that "vaapad is not truly superior to juyo in any objective way," even though it's contrary to Galan's, RN's, and my own statements saying otherwise and explaining why that's the case.

As for the question I assume was addressed to Ares, about the differences between Shien and Djem So...Shien is Form V's variant dedicated to blocking blaster bolts, whereas Djem So is Form V's variant dedicated to lightsaber dueling. So objectively speaking, Ares was wrong - in a lightsaber fight with all things equal, the Djem So duelist is going to throttle the Shien duelist.

Just as a Vaapad duelist would defeat a Juyo user, more often than not.

As for your question about the pros and cons of Vaapad compared to Juyo...Vaapad is everything Juyo is, plus more sequences, plus the ability to feed on the opponent's dark emotions as well as your own. Ergo, since Vaapad is everything Juyo is plus things that it is not, Vaapad would be inherently superior to Juyo....wouldn't you agree?

Originally posted by Galan007
Superior in that it is complete, while Juyo is incomplete.
Ah... I was under the impression that Juyo was completed prior to the PT, probably wrong though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
As for the question I assume was addressed to Ares, about the differences between Shien and Djem So...Shien is Form V's variant dedicated to blocking blaster bolts, whereas Djem So is Form V's variant dedicated to lightsaber dueling. So objectively speaking, Ares was wrong - in a lightsaber fight with all things equal, the Djem So duelist is going to throttle the Shien duelist.
First I never said a Lightsaber fight. Second, I believe a master Shien user could best a master Djem So user the main diffrence is the Shien user would focus more on defense whel the Djem user on power.


Where do you get this from?


But Vaapad isn't Juyo+, it's a variant of form VII. Both are ver andy aggressive focus on fast and kinetic attacks. But Juyo incorperates acrobatics, but not to the extant of Ataru, and uses unpredictabl and erratic attacks. Vaapad is more smooth and elegat, focuses more on speed, and has the dark side loop. As one can see they do have variations.

Originally posted by ares834
First I never said a Lightsaber fight. Second, I believe a master Shien user could best a master Djem So user the main diffrence is the Shien user would focus more on defense whel the Djem user on power.
I have no idea how to say this without sounding like a prick. Just know in advance that the following tone is not intended...

I don't care what you believe can or can not be done with Form V variants. From Jedi vs. Sith page 111: "Form V's Shien variation exploits the ability of the lightsaber to block a blaster bolt, and turns this defensive move into an offensive attack by deflecting the bolt deliberately toward an opponent. Form V's Djem So variation is devoted specifically to lightsaber dueling."

From that passage it's very logical to assume that a Master of Djem So would defeat a Master of Shien in lightsaber combat very conclusively.

Originally posted by ares834
Where do you get this from?
I explained where I got it from in my last post...

Originally posted by ares834
But Vaapad isn't Juyo+, it's a variant of form VII. Both are ver andy aggressive focus on fast and kinetic attacks. But Juyo incorperates acrobatics, but not to the extant of Ataru, and uses unpredictabl and erratic attacks. Vaapad is more smooth and elegat, focuses more on speed, and has the dark side loop. As one can see they do have variations.

Vaapad is Juyo+. And Vaapad is an extremely ferocious style, so I don't know where you get the 'smooth and elegant' from.

Originally posted by Enyalus

I have no idea how to say this without sounding like a prick. Just know in advance that the following tone is not intended...
Don't worry about it.



A Djem So user would have a slight advantage against a Shien user, not enough to make up for Skill or power in the force. If all things are equal the Djem So user would have the edge, but I don't think it's enough to say a Djem So user would destroy a Shien user in a duel.

I just don't view Lightsaber styles as a from of rock, paper, scissors.


Against dark siders yes, against light siders...

Smooth and elegant was a poor choice of words, I meant it's more smooth and elegant and it seems to flow. Heck Mace Windu's bladework was described as a "sphere" in RotS.

Originally posted by ares834
A Djem So user would have a slight advantage against a Shien user, not enough to make up for Skill or power in the force. If all things are equal the Djem So user would have the edge,
Original comment:
Originally posted by Enyalus
in a lightsaber fight with all things equal, the Djem So duelist is going to throttle the Shien duelist.

It's said Vapaad is Juyo+ against Lightsiders because Vapaad is considered to ofcompleted Juyo as Juyo itself was an incomplete form.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Original comment:
Ah ok.
Originally posted by mattatom
It's said Vapaad is Juyo+ against Lightsiders because Vapaad is considered to of completed Juyo as Juyo itself was an incomplete form.
But is Juyo still incomplete? I seem to recall it being completed around the PT era.

Edit: Nevermind.

Originally posted by mattatom
It's said Vapaad is Juyo+ against Lightsiders because Vapaad is considered to ofcompleted Juyo as Juyo itself was an incomplete form.

...

There were two variations of Form VII, Juyo and Vaapad, but both utilized bold, direct movements.

There is form VII, which has branched off to two different variations. They are not connected at all.

From all I've seen thus far, I view Juyo and vaapad as two distinctly different forms.

Some what like Ares, I also think that no form is superior to any other form, and that a master of any form could defeat a master of any other form, each with equal difficulty.

So shoes, Form VII, has two different branches? Juyo and Vaapad? Each being entirely seperate from the other? If so this makes sense with how I was perceiving it.

And yes Enyalus, I am agreeing more with Ares, Gideon's, and Shoes view of Juyo and Vaapad more so then with others views. However I am not entirely throwing out Galans, or others perceptions of the forms, I still assimilated sections of their perceptions of it into my own. However I perceive Juyo and Vaapad being two entirely different variations of Form VII, with neither being connected to the other except in the sense that they both branched from form VII.

Juyo and Vaapad neither superior to the other ,each with their own strengths and weaknesses, own styles etc. Also the part where Ares stated in the rots novel maces vaapad is noted as being spherical, more controlled, "eloquent" as it were, then juyo's more chaotic, erratic blade work, shows to me differences in the very bladework already aside from the emotional philosophy.

So yes Mace may state he perfected Juyo and created Vaapad, but ultimately that is just Mace's opinion, Vaapad seems to me to be an entirely different branch of form VII, not of Juyo. Just as Juyo is a branch of form VII, so too is vaapad a seperate branch of form VII, and not of Juyo. Thus neither is superior to the other, and a juyo user could with equal chance defeat a vaapad user, and vice versa.

Originally posted by ares834

A Djem So user would have a slight advantage against a Shien user, not enough to make up for Skill or power in the force. If all things are equal the Djem So user would have the edge, but I don't think it's enough to say a Djem So user would destroy a Shien user in a duel.

Prove it. Stronger attacks do not translate into an advantage. In fact, the Djem So practitioner would be at a disadvantage, and would require force-reserves of Anakin or Bane's caliber to be able to keep up with such a physically demanding form.



Non-canon because Anakin wasn't there in the film.

Shoes I find yours, ares, and gideons view more alligned with my view of Juyo, vaapad, and the other blade forms.

I perceive that no form is superior to the other, and that Juyo and Vaapad are entirely seperate from one another with neither being connected to the other except that they are both seperate branches of form VII, with neither being superior to the other.

In your view Shoes, what are the pros and cons of Juyo and Vaapad, each seperately?

Also in regards to Makashi, I believe it is not weak to strong kinetic force, I think any sbaer style would have been crushed by Anakin's kinetic force. So do you think a makashi user could defeat a vaapad user, and what are your reasons for why? As in what advantages would a makashi user have over a vaapad user?

I for one do not view vaapad superior to any other form, I see it as an equal to all other forms, with pros and cons just as all others.

Not so. Obi-Wan's Soresu was more than a match for him.

Originally posted by Shoes
Not so. Obi-Wan's Soresu was more than a match for him.

My appologies, I meant to convey, any saber style would of been crushed by Anakin's power, with the state of mind and body he was in during the height of combat while fighting dooku abord the invisible hand

Not Vaapad.

How come not vaapad? I don't see vaapad any more superior to any other form.

He was fueling himself with rage- the dark side. Read Fightsaber or this.

I've heard before that Anakin during his fight with Dooku, was channeling more force power, both light and dark, that he was likened to a thermonuclear furnace?

Or are you saying Anakin was fueling himself with the darkside during his fight with dooku? Either way ill read the link.

Oh also, does vaapad have a limit for how much dark side energy it can channel/reflect use against the opponent? If so would mace's vaapad become overwhelemed by some one whos darkside energy is infinite or too much for him to handle?

Thermonuclear furnace?

Yes...or am I mistaken? There were several people in this thread who quoted the rots novel? And the quote was of Dooku describing anakin during the fight with him on the invisible hand....how anakin was growing stronger and faster every second, and was tapping so much force energy he was like a thermonuclear furnace going super critical?

I wonder how Dooku knows what it feels like to be within like even a thousand feet of a thermonuclear furnace going critical. mmm

Originally posted by Board Walker
both light and dark

He won by using his rage. This wouldn't work against a Vaapad user.





I assume so. In the case of Palpatine and Windu, Windu had a limit as to the energy he reflected, whereas Palpatine used the pain for more energy.



Metaphor.

Originally posted by Shoes
Prove it. Stronger attacks do not translate into an advantage. In fact, the Djem So practitioner would be at a disadvantage, and would require force-reserves of Anakin or Bane's caliber to be able to keep up with such a physically demanding form.
No. Shien was developed to blcok blasterfire, Djem So is a variation of Shien that focuses less on blaster fire deflection and more on saber combat. Logically it would be superiro in a lightsaber fight. Granted I don't think it would be a major advantage but it gives the Djem So user a slight advantage.


True.

Originally posted by ares834
No. Shien was developed to blcok blasterfire, Djem So is a variation of Shien that focuses less on blaster fire deflection and more on saber combat. Logically it would be superiro in a lightsaber fight. Granted I don't think it would be a major advantage but it gives the Djem So user a slight advantage.


True.

As was Soresu, so Djem So would have the advantage there too, no? So then why did Soresu prevail on Mustafar?

I'm convinced that you get off on trolling people, lol.

Originally posted by Board Walker
How come not vaapad? I don't see vaapad any more superior to any other form.
We know you don't. You've said it repeatedly in this thread, ignoring multiple opinions and multiple quotes from canonical sources.

Exactly what else is left to say to this other than, "No, you're wrong. Vaapad is better. Deal with it." ?

I've not seen any canonical source state "vaapad is better" or superior to the other forms. The only statement Ive seen is that its the most deadly of the forms, that is all.

So why you would you state Vaapad is better then all other forms, and that I am blatantly wrong, is some thing I question. As all of this is opinion, and no where is it stated in canon that vaapad is the superior form of all the forms. Or am I mistaken and it is?

Originally posted by Shoes
As was Soresu, so Djem So would have the advantage there too, no? So then why did Soresu prevail on Mustafar?
It wasn't soresu that won. It was Kenobi. Actually, it was more like Anakin self destructed. The skill and power of the dueler is far more important than the form they use. Keonobi is likely, Anakin however is FAR more powerful. However, he wasn't in the right mentle state for battle and he fought terribly sloppy.

Originally posted by Board Walker
I've not seen any canonical source state "vaapad is better" or superior to the other forms. The only statement Ive seen is that its the most deadly of the forms, that is all.

So why you would you state Vaapad is better then all other forms, and that I am blatantly wrong, is some thing I question. As all of this is opinion, and no where is it stated in canon that vaapad is the superior form of all the forms. Or am I mistaken and it is?

Her voice echoed inside him: Nothing is more dangerous than a Jedi who's finally sane, but he said only-'She is a master of Vaapad."

In the silence that followed, he studied the folds and wrinkles of his interlaced fingers, focusing his attention into his visual field to hold at bay dark dream-ghosts of Depa's blade flashing toward Jedi necks.

"Vaapad?" Palpatine repeated, eventually. Perhaps he'd grown tired of waiting for someone to explain. "Isn't that some kind of animal?"

"A predator of Sarapin," Yoda supplied gravely. "Also the nickname it is, given by students, for the seventh form of lightsaber combat."

"Hmp. I've always heard there are only six."

"Six there were, for generations of Jedi. The seventh... is not well known. A powerful form it is. Deadliest of all... But dangerous it is-to its master, as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone to mastery has risen."

"But if she's the only master-and this style is so deadly-what makes you think-"

"She's not the only master, sir." He lifted his head to meet Palpatine's frown. "She is my only student to become a master."

"Your only student..." Palpatine echoed.

"I didn't study Vaapad." Mace let his hands fall to his sides. "I created it."

Here, we see that A) Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form, and B) Juyo was an incomplete form.

If Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form, it has the best chance to kill it's opponent. What more are you looking for when you say 'superior form' ? If Vaapad can kill another being faster than, say, Makashi can, then it is the superior form.

Originally posted by Enyalus
If Vaapad can kill another being faster than, say, Makashi can, then it is the superior form.
You could say that about any form though afterall. Deadly=/=Superior. Though Deadliest="Most capable of causing death" though with a weapon such as a lightsaber, does that really matter?

Originally posted by mattatom
You could say that about any form though afterall.
No, you can't. Because only one form is the 'deadliest of all.' And that is Vaapad. No matter how badly certain posters wish it were otherwise.

Originally posted by mattatom
You could say that about any form though afterall. Deadly=/=Superior. Though Deadliest="Most capable of causing death" though with a weapon such as a lightsaber, does that really matter?
Agreed.

Originally posted by Shoes
I assume so. In the case of Palpatine and Windu, Windu had a limit as to the energy he reflected, whereas Palpatine used the pain for more energy. Yet Palpatine is the one who gave out first, not Mace...

Originally posted by mattatom
You could say that about any form though afterall. Deadly=/=Superior. Though Deadliest="Most capable of causing death" though with a weapon such as a lightsaber, does that really matter? I guess you can say it, but that doesn't make it true.

Despite the opinions being thrown around in this thread, there are levels of superiority where lightsaber combat is concerned.... And Vaapad is at the top of that list. Canon fact.

Originally posted by Galan007
Despite the opinions being thrown around in this thread, there are levels of superiority where lightsaber combat is concerned.... And Vaapad is at the top of that list. Canon fact.

Vaapad the deadliest, formIII the most likely to survive, juyo the most intense, formII the most eloquent and refined, etc.

Being deadliest does not equate to being superior, the most deadliest form is not the most likely form to triumph, win, or survive. Is it the most accurate, vicious, swiftest, powerful of all the forms? No. A different form trumps it in each regard, as well as each form being superior to it in many varying regards.

Being the most deadly combatant in an arena does not equate to being the best combatant, one who is faster negates that deadly aspect. Same with some one who is far more skilled, technically refined would negate that deadliness, and this can be applied to any viewpoint.

No where in canon is vaapad stated as being the superior form, is it the deadliest? Yes it is, just as each form is the epitome of a certain aspect. Is it stated in canon anywhere that the concept of deadly is equated with being most superior? No. Only in the reality of your paradigm.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Vaapad the deadliest, formIII the most likely to survive, juyo the most intense, formII the most eloquent and refined, etc. Did you forget what thread you're in?

Take that here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t533913.html

Originally posted by Galan007
Did you forget what thread you're in?

Take that here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t533913.html

This topic pertains to questions about makashi, and vaapad as well as the other saber styles are in context to makashi of the paradigm of understanding saber combat and its varying nuances as a whole. So did I forget what thread I am posting in? No, did you?

Vaapad was specifically named after a predator known for it's speed.

Vaapad is the fastest lightsaber form. Vaapad is the deadliest lightsaber form. Vaapad requires the most skill in order to master. Vaapad is the most erratic and unpredictable for opponents to counter lightsaber form.

Conclusion? Vaapad is the superior lightsaber form. Period.

I was wondering where was Juyo said to be an incomplete form? I seem to recall reading that some where but it may have been from the Wook.

Originally posted by Board Walker
This topic pertains to questions about makashi, and vaapad as well as the other saber styles are in context to makashi of the paradigm of understanding saber combat and its varying nuances as a whole. So did I forget what thread I am posting in? No, did you? Heh, yet you mention (in unison) the exact same forms being debated in that thread... I'm sure you can understand the confusion.

Anywho, nothing seems to be getting through to you. You had an opinion already set in your mind from page 1, and despite numerous statements/excerpts posted from canon sources, your opinion has remained completely unchanged. Thus I personally see no reason to respond to your questions here any further.

Originally posted by ares834
I was wondering where was Juyo said to be an incomplete form? I seem to recall reading that some where but it may have been from the Wook.
I posted this last page. It's from Shatterpoint:

"Also the nickname it is, given by students, for the seventh form of lightsaber combat."

"Hmph. I've always heard there are only six."

"Six there were, for generations of Jedi. The seventh... is not well known. A powerful form it is. Deadliest of all... But dangerous it is-to its master, as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone to mastery has risen."

Juyo was so incomplete that it was virtually unknown. Mace takes it and refines it to perfection, calling his variant Vaapad.

^ There's also this...

"Because so few have achieved the necessary mastery to advance form VII, this discipline can only be regarded as under development to a select few, and forbidden to all others." - Jedi vs. Sith

I think what what may be getting to you, is not that my opinion is unchanged, but rather that my opinion has not shifted to one that is similar to yours.

My opinion and view of the forms has changed very much so, as I have assimilated portions of many varying paradigm from the myriad of users which have posted in this thread.

I also would like to thank you Galan for the knowledge, and insight I have incorporated from your posts, thank you.

Originally posted by Galan007
"Because so few have achieved the necessary mastery to advance form VII, this discipline can only be regarded as under development to a select few, and forbidden to all others." - Jedi vs. Sith
I take "under development" to not mean that Juyo is incomplete but to mean that few people are training in it. As it says "under development to a select few" rather than by a select few.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yet Palpatine is the one who gave out first, not Mace...


Which is illogical, and thus proves that Palpatine threw the fight.



No. Your quote fails to substantiate that Juyo is an incomplete form as you claim, it merely states that there are few who actually use it. You can have a complete form and have few users of it. Moreover, as the Wookie page states, Masters discourage use of it because of its aggresive style, and is therefore unlikely to be taught as part of combat training, which furthermore obscures the form.

My sock account, Galan, provided the quote I was looking for immediately after my post.

Originally posted by Enyalus
My sock account, Galan, provided the quote I was looking for immediately after my post. It says "under development to a select few" and by this is means the said few are developing their skills in it. This makes sense in the context of the quote as well.
It doesn't mean that the Jedi were develping the form. Afterall one would never say "the bomb is under develpment to chemists" that makes absolutely no sense. Instead, one would say "the bomb is under develpment by chemists".

Those 'select few' were Mace and Depa. They were perfecting the Vaapad variation. Not Juyo. They needed to develop Juyo in order to create Vaapad.

That means they had already "developed" Juyo, and continuing to "develop" Vaapad.

Originally posted by Shoes
That means they had already "developed" Juyo, and continuing to "develop" Vaapad.
No.

The quote, "under development to a select few" was in reference to Juyo, as it is listed in the Form VII, Juyo section in Jedi vs. Sith. Juyo was under development. By Mace. Who perfected it and called the addition/variation Vaapad.

Vaapad was already around well before Mace.

Also I still think "under develpment to" they were developing their own skills in it rather than developing the form itself.

Originally posted by ares834
Vaapad was already around well before Mace.
The creature? Definitely.

Originally posted by ares834
Also I still think "under develpment to" they were developing their own skills in it rather than developing the form itself.

"...this discipline can only be regarded as under development to a select few."

They were speaking about the form being under development. Here's how it goes:

31 BBY: Form VII Juyo is incomplete and being developed fully by Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba and Mace Windu.

22 BBY: Form VII's variant, Vaapad, has been completed and mastered by Mace and Depa.

Inbetween 31 and 22 BBY, Juyo was completed and added to in order to create the variant, Vaapad.

Meaning that the Juyo which Maul and Sidious practiced would more than likely be considered inferior to Vaapad as a form in and of itself due to its incompleteness, unless the Rule of Two had a swordsman somewhere down the line who developed Juyo to the fullest on his own. But we have no evidence for believing that...

yeah, if i remember correctly, mace windu and that other guy (i forget his name but he was in the CW graphic novels) made the vaapad style. it was not around well before windu

Originally posted by kodiak430
yeah, if i remember correctly, mace windu and that other guy (i forget his name but he was in the CW graphic novels) made the vaapad style. it was not around well before windu
Sora Bulq.

You are correct.

Originally posted by Enyalus

The creature? Definitely.
from PoD, "At one moment Sirak seemed to be using the jabs and thrusts of Vaapad, the most aggressive and direct of the seven traditional forms."



Where are the dates from? I still think my interpretation is correct but to each their own.

Originally posted by ares834
from PoD, "At one moment Sirak seemed to be using the jabs and thrusts of Vaapad, the most aggressive and direct of the seven traditional forms."
Drew K. admitted that was a mistake. The editor failed to catch it.

Originally posted by ares834
Where are the dates from? I still think my interpretation is correct but to each their own.
That under development quote you want to haggle over? It's being said by Cin Drallig in 31 BBY, recorded in the Great Holocron. Source is Jedi vs. Sith, page 110.

If anyone but Gideon disagrees with the interpretation I've laid out, they are wrong. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Drew K. admitted that was a mistake. The editor failed to catch it. Yep. I know. Hence the and emoticons.



Fine. It's just not worth arguing over.

Originally posted by ares834
Yep. I know. Hence the and emoticons.
I can never tell with KMCers.

Originally posted by Shoes
Which is illogical, and thus proves that Palpatine threw the fight. Illogical? Not in the slightest. Mace first won the duel via Vaapad + Shatterpoint, and then he won the force battle via Vaapad. Never once was it stated that Palps 'threw the fight'. Here's the entire excerpt...

" had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease.."

Was it mentioned that Mace had no strength left to fight? Yes. But despite that, did Mace actually continue to fight/overcome Palpatine's lightning, until Palpatine himself was mangled beyond recognition, and no longer had enough energy to keep up the efforts? Yes.

Actions > statements. Mace pwned Palpatine fair and square.

Originally posted by Galan007
Illogical? Not in the slightest. Mace first won the duel via Vaapad + Shatterpoint, and then he won the force battle via Vaapad. Never once was it stated that Palps 'threw the fight'. Here's the entire excerpt...

" had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease.."

Was it mentioned that Mace had no strength left to fight? Yes. But despite that, did Mace actually continue to fight/overcome Palpatine's lightning, until Palpatine himself was mangled beyond recognition, and no longer had enough energy to keep up the efforts? Yes.

Actions > statements. Mace pwned Palpatine fair and square.

Hey my friend.. I hope you're good. Man I'm sick and tired of this theory about Sids throwing the fight and pretending to be weak... It gets old.

Galan007
and then he won the force battle via Vaapad.

What Force duel?



Provide the evidence that Palpatine lacked the energy to continue his efforts, plz.



'Pwnage', you say?

Originally posted by Gideon
What Force duel?

Provide the evidence that Palpatine lacked the energy to continue his efforts, plz.

'Pwnage', you say? All of these questions can be answered by reading the excerpt I posted above.

Galan007
All of these questions can be answered by reading the excerpt I posted above.

Hardly.

Windu + lightsaber =/= Force fight. Try again.

All we have is Palpatine saying he's "too weak." That he later jumps up and blasts Windu's ass out the window is incontrovertible evidence that he had enough juice to keep going. Unless you think that minute or so completely recharged his Force battery?

And what about Mace "aching body" Windu says pwnage?

Originally posted by Gideon
Windu + lightsaber =/= Force fight. Try again.

All we have is Palpatine saying he's "too weak." That he later jumps up and blasts Windu's ass out the window is incontrovertible evidence that he had enough juice to keep going. Unless you think that minute or so completely recharged his Force battery?

And what about Mace "aching body" Windu says pwnage? Mace turning back the lightning until Palpatine himself could no longer keep up the efforts is all I was referring to. Sorry if you took it differently.

First, Palps didn't "jump up". He stayed seated. Secondly, I think it's obvious that Palpatine was not completely power-emaciated, but that's not what I was commenting on. I was commenting on the fact that he is the one who gave out first, not Mace (which was a smart thing to do on his part, because even if he did have energy left, and even if he would have kept going, he likely would have killed himself in the process.)

I'm going by actions, not just statements.

Galan007
Mace turning back the lightning until Palpatine himself could no longer keep up the efforts is all I was referring to. Sorry if you took it differently.

You haven't provided evidence that Palpatine was unable to keep up the efforts.



You said that Palpatine lacked the energy to maintain the efforts, which is what you've failed to provide evidence for.



And actions saw Palpatine annihilate Windu with a storm of Force lightning, eliminating any question that he was somehow drained of power or that he lacked the ability to continue fighting against Windu. The guy withstood his face being melted, what exactly stopped him at that point? He communicated with Anakin telepathically (the movie), sensed Anakin's despair through the Force (the novelization), and manipulated the situation to force Anakin's hand.

Also according to the RotS visual guide is claims that Mace's lightning revaled his true form.

Originally posted by Gideon
You haven't provided evidence that Palpatine was unable to keep up the efforts.

You said that Palpatine lacked the energy to maintain the efforts, which is what you've failed to provide evidence for.

And actions saw Palpatine annihilate Windu with a storm of Force lightning, eliminating any question that he was somehow drained of power or that he lacked the ability to continue fighting against Windu. The guy withstood his face being melted, what exactly stopped him at that point? He communicated with Anakin telepathically (the movie), sensed Anakin's despair through the Force (the novelization), and manipulated the situation to force Anakin's hand. You seem to be cherry picking a bit here. This is the excerpt I have been referring to...

" had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny." Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny ..." "Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin-! Please, Anaaahhh-" Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-" "Ahhh-" Palpatine's roar above above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I ... can't. I give up. I ... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender." Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease.."

If you believe that the above scene was just a ploy the Palpatine devised, then that is your opinion and you are welcome to it. But from my point of view, Palpatine was unable to keep up his force-efforts (likely for fear of being killed) and legitimately gave out before Windu did.

...

lulwaitwut



Mr. Bond, I do not think you comprehend the term.



wut duz this haff 2 do with sideus not having enuff energy? all it showz is dat he'z badass enuff 2 withstande his face bein meltedd off and still attak mace windoo.



lulwut?

So... because Palpatine says he's too weak and lays on the ground like a beaten pup... he... really... is? Haven't you played TFU? He pulls a similar stunt with Marek, who promptly responds with "It's a trick! He's stronger than you know." And Marek turns out to be pretty right, since Palpatine then annihilates him with Force lightning. We know from the movie that Palpatine communicated with Anakin through telepathy as Windu and the other Masters were on their way to arrest him; we know from the novelization that Palpatine set up the whole fight with an audio feed to present to the Senate as evidence of the Jedi uprising; we know from the movie, script, and novelization that the second Windu is without a lightsaber, Palpatine obliterates him with the Force.

Now I'm not saying Palpatine could have won from the position he was in, but I am saying quite conclusively that he certainly could have kept going.

Originally posted by Gideon
Now I'm not saying Palpatine could have won from the position he was in, but I am saying quite conclusively that he certainly could have kept going. I agree. All I'm saying is that Palpatine is the one who gave out before Mace in that particular scene. If Palpatine would have kept up his lightning, or tried to attack Mace again (while Mace still had his saber) then Palps almost certainly would have been killed.

007
I agree with you because you are perfect, infallible, and ruggedly handsome and I am but a pimple on the face of an imperfect world in your very presence





Proof?

Originally posted by Gideon




Proof? Why bother? It will just be a repost of what I've already said.

No, you've gotta prove that if Palpatine kept up, he would have died. Nowhere does the novelization say, "Palpatine ceased the assault, knowing all too well that had he continued, Mace would have killed him."

Originally posted by Galan007
Why bother? It will just be a repost of what I've already said.

Edit: Waaaaait a minute, you're saying Sidious would have killed himself due to the Force lightning? Now that's believable.

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree. All I'm saying is that Palpatine is the one who gave out before Mace in that particular scene. If Palpatine would have kept up his lightning, or tried to attack Mace again (while Mace still had his saber) then Palps almost certainly would have been killed.

Don't tell me to read through your assumptions anymore. One post to disprove this:

As long as Windu keeps reflecting, Palpatine can continue.

If you cannot, through logic we gather that Palpatine threw the fight.

Uh, if Windu kept reflecting, Palpatine would have ended up looking like Skeletor.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Uh, if Windu kept reflecting, Palpatine would have ended up looking like Skeletor. Or dead.

DUDE

No.

What the hell?

Originally posted by Gideon
Edit: Waaaaait a minute, you're saying Sidious would have killed himself due to the Force lightning? Now that's believable. Yes. What did you think I was talking about?

How can he kill himself when the ROTS novel explicitly states that his pain only increased his power?

Originally posted by Shoes
How can he kill himself when the ROTS novel explicitly states that his pain only increased his power?
Anakin Solo's increased power burst his cells and killed him. It can happen in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Shoes
How can he kill himself when the ROTS novel explicitly states that his pain only increased his power? To how much? An endless amount?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Anakin Solo's increased power burst his cells and killed him. It can happen in Star Wars.

wtf is this shit

Originally posted by mattatom
To how much? An endless amount?

Obviously not, but the novelization makes it clear that Mace was about to give.