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Surfer and Orion


Blast against Each other with all thier might

AF at full blast vs. Surfer's PC at full blast. No outside amping. Who wins?


Orion vs. Surfer in an Arm Wrestling contest. Who wins? No amping for either.


Superman Punches both in the gut repeatedly. Who Falls first?


They both fly from Earth to the end of the Galaxy. Who gets there first?


A blast from Galactus is racing towards the Milky way to destroy it. Who can contain it?


The being Mageddon has repeatly taken Superman's best shots and it won't dent. who can hurt it more? Orion or Surfer?

Both have to matter manipulate thier bodies into energy forms. Who can do it?

Both have to fight off the DOTNG IM and live. Who can do it?

Both have to Fight off T and A. Who can do it?

i have a question: do you promise not to jump over every post that isn't pro orion?

Originally posted by psycho gundam
i have a question: do you promise not to jump over every post that isn't pro orion? Im not going to jump over anything. I'll debate like I have been. I haven't insulted anyone who disagrees with me. But others seem to do that alot when someone disagrees with them.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
I haven't insulted anyone who disagrees with me.


I laughted.

Edge to Surfer.

Originally posted by Silent Master
Edge to Surfer. I would like explainations on each individual contest.

I would like Jessica Biel's number.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I would like Jessica Biel's number.


Are you a stalker or something?

Poor girl.

If I was a stalker, I'd wouldn't need her number.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I would like Jessica Biel's number.
Yeah I'm sure she'll leave Justin "I'm rich *****!" Timberlake for you.

Originally posted by Silent Master
If I was a stalker, I'd wouldn't need her number.

Every stalker needs to start somewhere.

Serious discussion has given way to Jessica biel.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah I'm sure she'll leave Justin "I'm rich *****!" Timberlake for you.

Well, he is in the closet.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Serious discussion has given way to Jessica biel.


Its called an upgrade

I'll stop now. Orion wins each by being, stronger, better at amping, more intelligent, more powerful, cooler, manlier and better looking in tights.

Orion solos.

Last Orion wins. He was tapping into his true godly nature. Any other Orion would lose to an upgraded Surfer. Sorry.

Silver Surfer because Silver Surfer > Orion.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Silver Surfer because Silver Surfer > Orion.

the reasoning is alittle complicated, but i think i get what youre saying, and i agree

A well written Orion (Simonson, Morrison) could hang with regular Surfer. Basically just as versatile and powerful.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Last Orion wins. He was tapping into his true godly nature. Any other Orion would lose to an upgraded Surfer. Sorry. what are these upgraded surfer feats? And why is Orion not also upgraded?

So, this is true, godly Orion? He'd kick Surfer's ass.

Surfer

Surfer, on all counts.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer you do realize that some of these showings Orion has greater feats. You actually think surfer van out blast the AF? Or beat Orion arm wrestling? A guy who is as strong as Superman.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
So, this is true, godly Orion? He'd kick Surfer's ass.

Going by Simonsons run and Death of the New Gods, I'd say so. Even the infamous Action Comics where people like to show off Darkseid getting beat up by Superman also features Orion taking Superman out of the air with the barest of bursts of Astro Force, for fear of killing him...

You created this thread with the intention of Orion winning, and your goal was to get a response and try and beat down anyone who said Surfer would win. So this is a spite thread.

Originally posted by King Kandy
You created this thread with the intention of Orion winning, and your goal was to get a response and try and beat down anyone who said Surfer would win. So this is a spite thread. Silly statement since Surfer also pureposely wins some of the contest. So what's your point again? Oh, you don't have one.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Silly statement since Surfer also pureposely wins some of the contest. So what's your point again? Oh, you don't have one.
My point is that this thread should be closed because it was created for one-sided discussion.

its not spite, its bait.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
its not spite, its bait.
If a thread is made for bait then it is spite.

Agreed on the spite thread, I'm not much of a poster here but I do read this forum often. Seems to me "lighty" just wants to prove and shove his opinion down everyones throats in every thread. It's annoying to read to say the least. I agree on the fact surfer beats Orion, breaking down each individual scenario would be pointless and a waste of time I'm sorry to way. The fact is even if someone creates a logical feat backed argument to each and every scenario you will simply attack their opinion show no proof as to why it is false and say Orion wins. Life is to short my friend.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
you do realize that some of these showings Orion has greater feats. You actually think surfer van out blast the AF? Or beat Orion arm wrestling? A guy who is as strong as Superman.

sigh.yes i do think he has greater blast power. not strength tho, but i never claimed he was stronger. now if ur done baiting run along.

Surfer on all counts.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
you do realize that some of these showings Orion has greater feats. You actually think surfer van out blast the AF? Or beat Orion arm wrestling? A guy who is as strong as Superman. Originally posted by Lord_Talron
its bait.

Surfer slightly

Surfer He's just too much for Orion.

Originally posted by Naija boy
sigh.yes i do think he has greater blast power. not strength tho, but i never claimed he was stronger. now if ur done baiting run along. I've never seen surfer hurt an abstract level being with his own power.nor have I seen him control universe destroying energies. No bait. I'm merely arguing the point surfer is not grater than orion. The evidence clearly shows that Orion is better than surfer in key areas and surfer is better than orion in key areas. They likely are equal. There is NOTHING the surfer can do that Orion can not. At least in terms of battle.

Originally posted by mykke
Agreed on the spite thread, I'm not much of a poster here but I do read this forum often. Seems to me "lighty" just wants to prove and shove his opinion down everyones throats in every thread. It's annoying to read to say the least. I agree on the fact surfer beats Orion, breaking down each individual scenario would be pointless and a waste of time I'm sorry to way. The fact is even if someone creates a logical feat backed argument to each and every scenario you will simply attack their opinion show no proof as to why it is false and say Orion wins. Life is to short my friend. This is all alie. I post every time, proof and or cite feats to back my stance. Now I challenge you to show were I just said something stuoid like Orion is too mich for surfer or Orion is just more powerful those are the words of unworthy surfer heads. I always gice examples. It's the surfer heads who just assume surfer wins ever thing with thought and usually with very little knowledge of the other character if they aren't from marvel.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
I've never seen surfer hurt an abstract level being with his own power.nor have I seen him control universe destroying energies. No bait. I'm merely arguing the point surfer is not grater than orion. The evidence clearly shows that Orion is better than surfer in key areas and surfer is better than orion in key areas. They likely are equal. There is NOTHING the surfer can do that Orion can not. At least in terms of battle.

Scans of the incident of the abstract being orion hurt with his own power? Moreover surfer has actually broken through the Strangers forcefield and harmed him ( stranger actually verbalizes the pain he was caused). Then for that universal destroying energy thing, for orion it happened off panel and we never see what he actually does to the energy of the bomb or how he gets it to stop. The bomb was also not going to destroy the universe by means of sheer force but did so via tampering with the quantum structure of the universe which would then cause it to collapse in on itself.

Anyhow i did not say that Orion is not better than surfer in some areas, However, i maintain the stance that Surfer by virtue of his more creative and use of his powers in battle and his superiority in areas such as speed make him overall superior. Not by any considerable margin tho.

So, is this still godly Orion? He basically held back the JLA single handedly. If so, he wins.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Scans of the incident of the abstract being orion hurt with his own power? Moreover surfer has actually broken through the Strangers forcefield and harmed him ( stranger actually verbalizes the pain he was caused). Then for that universal destroying energy thing, for orion it happened off panel and we never see what he actually does to the energy of the bomb or how he gets it to stop. The bomb was also not going to destroy the universe by means of sheer force but did so via tampering with the quantum structure of the universe which would then cause it to collapse in on itself.

Anyhow i did not say that Orion is not better than surfer in some areas, However, i maintain the stance that Surfer by virtue of his more creative and use of his powers in battle and his superiority in areas such as speed make him overall superior. Not by any considerable margin tho. I think overall they are a perfect match. Much Like Surfer Thor, Or Thor Orion. Surfer isn't faster than Orion. At least not in travel Speed. Dude traveled from New Genesis to Earth in under a heart beat. That is ridiculous. And The very fact that the A-Bomb could destroy the quantum foundations of the Universe shows it was universal in it's reach. Whether it happend off panel or not, it was already stated that only the AF could contain such power. As far as creative use, Orion tends to blast, but so does surfer. Both have matter manipulated. Both have used shields. Both have used energy manipulation. Both have healed. Both have turned themselves into other things. Both have even manipulated Souls.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
I think overall they are a perfect match. Much Like Surfer Thor, Or Thor Orion. Surfer isn't faster than Orion. At least not in travel Speed. Dude traveled from New Genesis to Earth in under a heart beat. That is ridiculous. And The very fact that the A-Bomb could destroy the quantum foundations of the Universe shows it was universal in it's reach. Whether it happend off panel or not, it was already stated that only the AF could contain such power. As far as creative use, Orion tends to blast, but so does surfer. Both have matter manipulated. Both have used shields. Both have used energy manipulation. Both have healed. Both have turned themselves into other things. Both have even manipulated Souls.

For the new genesis thing, isnt new genesis in a parrallel dimension? Hence the reason you need to use a boomtube to get from there to the regular universe. If so then he wouldnt really be able to fly all the way from there without passing through some sort of dimensional portal first in order to enter he regular universe at some unknown point and then fly to earth. Hence judging the actual distance (and consequently speed) involved there would be really difficult. Moreover i was referring to actual combat speed anyways.

Then in regards to the Bomb feat, the bomb was universal in its reach in the sense that it would cause the subsequent collapse of the entire universe in on itself, but as i said before this wasnt through sheer force and not by straight up consuming the universe. Rather its unique energies would cause a special effect in one dimension that would then translate into the physical dimension. The energies Orion himself controlled , did not fill the universe and iirc only surrounded an area around the bomb. Additionally we dont know exactly what orion did to the energies (BFR?) which casts ambiguity onto the feat. Now undoubtedly the feat is still extremely impressive regardless but Surfer certainly has feats that match it (Channeling the crunch energy while already extremely weakened and using it to defeat T and A) and likely exceed it (transmuting a universes worth of soul energy of the unilords universe into cosmic energy).

As far as creative use in battle, Surfer also greatly exceeds orion in that regard. Surfer is far more prone to actually using offensive and environmental matter manip, energy manipulation, and other exotic powers of his within battle.

Originally posted by Naija boy
For the new genesis thing, isnt new genesis in a parrallel dimension? Hence the reason you need to use a boomtube to get from there to the regular universe. If so then he wouldnt really be able to fly all the way from there without passing through some sort of dimensional portal first in order to enter he regular universe at some unknown point and then fly to earth. Hence judging the actual distance (and consequently speed) involved there would be really difficult. Moreover i was referring to actual combat speed anyways.

Then in regards to the Bomb feat, the bomb was universal in its reach in the sense that it would cause the subsequent collapse of the entire universe in on itself, but as i said before this wasnt through sheer force and not by straight up consuming the universe. Rather its unique energies would cause a special effect in one dimension that would then translate into the physical dimension. The energies Orion himself controlled , did not fill the universe and iirc only surrounded an area around the bomb. Additionally we dont know exactly what orion did to the energies (BFR?) which casts ambiguity onto the feat. Now undoubtedly the feat is still extremely impressive regardless but Surfer certainly has feats that match it (Channeling the crunch energy while already extremely weakened and using it to defeat T and A) and likely exceed it (transmuting a universes worth of soul energy of the unilords universe into cosmic energy).

As far as creative use in battle, Surfer also greatly exceeds orion in that regard. Surfer is far more prone to actually using offensive and environmental matter manip, energy manipulation, and other exotic powers of his within battle. Soul Energy is an entirely different thing. And It has already been shown in the DCU that the Quantum Field extends thru out the DCU and you have to manipulate all of it to cause universal change/destruction. (Captain Atom Series). The Quantum Bomb is a universal feat. Orion had stopped the bomb once it had already been activated. So it was Universal reaching. Surfer may be more prone to more exotic powers within battle, But Orion is more prone to More potent Blasts and he still has his Mother box which will, in combine with Orion's own Matter manip and Energy manip powers, negate most of Surfer exotic attacks. And New Genesis is in a Parallel Universe but for some reason, if you fly at crazy speeds, you can cross from one place to the next with no boom tube. Supergirl also did it when she had the Powers of and Earth Born Angel.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Soul Energy is an entirely different thing. And It has already been shown in the DCU that the Quantum Field extends thru out the DCU and you have to manipulate all of it to cause universal change/destruction. (Captain Atom Series). The Quantum Bomb is a universal feat. Orion had stopped the bomb once it had already been activated. So it was Universal reaching. Surfer may be more prone to more exotic powers within battle, But Orion is more prone to More potent Blasts and he still has his Mother box which will, in combine with Orion's own Matter manip and Energy manip powers, negate most of Surfer exotic attacks. And New Genesis is in a Parallel Universe but for some reason, if you fly at crazy speeds, you can cross from one p
lace to the next with no boom tube. Supergirl also did it when she had the Powers of and Earth Born Angel.

Not sure what u mean by soul energy is an entirely different thing or how that is relevant. Id like to see the example in the captain atom series u are referring to tho. Moreover given that surfer has feats on that level as ive pointed out, it really doesnt matter either way. Orion doesnt have superior blast power nor speed and manoevrability (especially in combat) and while he does have matter manip abilites of his own, surfers greater skill and propensity for using them would still give him an added advantage (even if orion will be able to put up a some defense against it). Oh and since it is in a parrallel universe u would likely have to break through one dimension to get to the other (hence the reason that u need a boomtube normally) so even if flyin fast enough can enable u to do that, the distance is still ambiguous because it would depend on where exactly in u first emerged within the other universe.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Not sure what u mean by soul energy is an entirely different thing or how that is relevant. Id like to see the example in the captain atom series u are referring to tho. Moreover given that surfer has feats on that level as ive pointed out, it really doesnt matter either way. Orion doesnt have superior blast power nor speed and manoevrability (especially in combat) and while he does have matter manip abilites of his own, surfers greater skill and propensity for using them would still give him an added advantage (even if orion will be able to put up a some defense against it). Oh and since it is in a parrallel universe u would likely have to break through one dimension to get to the other (hence the reason that u need a boomtube normally) so even if flyin fast enough can enable u to do that, the distance is still ambiguous because it would depend on where exactly in u first emerged within the other universe. Ill look up the scan but, it was made very clear that he flew from New Genesis to the Earth in a under a second. I do believe Orion has Greater Blast Power than The Surfer. Surfer manipulates other energy in vast amounts but Thor and Orion both Channel Vast energy from within themselves. Also, Don't forget, The Mother Boxes also matter Manipulate and control energy and Orion has used the boxes several times. And Orion can self amp. He can amp his physical stats with his AF and he can amp his stats and Power levels by growing Giant.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Ill look up the scan but, it was made very clear that he few from New Genesis to the Earth in a under a second. I do believe Orion has Greater Blast Power than The Surfer. Surfer manipulates other energy in vast amounts but Thor and Orion both Channel Vast energy from within themselves. Also, Don't forget, The Mother Boxes also matter Manipulate and control energy and Orion has used the boxes several times. And Orion can self amp. He can amp his physical stats with his AF and he can amp his stats and Power levels by growing Giant.

Ill await said scan. Surfer manipulating other energy in vast amounts really doesnt show some sign of weaker blast output. Realistically it is preferable because it shows he can rely on external energy sources to draw power from in addition to his own (As seen in the instance where he drew energy from all over the cosmos and than rained said energy on his opponent). Further he does have huge energy reserves of his own so its a win win anyhow u look at it. And yes i do know that motherboxes can matter manipulate hecen the reason i i do believe that orion can put up a good defense against it. However surfers greater skill and propensity to use it in battle would keep orion on the defensive and would leave him open to toher attacks such as board blitzes.Surfer can also amp himself physically as well as his punches and strikes with energy (as we saw in his recent thrashing of BRB) and in melee, his board again is once a very lethal offensive weapon.

Scans of Orion growing giant of his own volition in battle within regular universe? Even if capable this is certanly not something that would seem in character for him.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Ill await said scan. Surfer manipulating other energy in vast amounts really doesnt show some sign of weaker blast output. Realistically it is preferable because it shows he can rely on external energy sources to draw power from in addition to his own (As seen in the instance where he drew energy from all over the cosmos and than rained said energy on his opponent). Further he does have huge energy reserves of his own so its a win win anyhow u look at it. And yes i do know that motherboxes can matter manipulate hecen the reason i i do believe that orion can put up a good defense against it. However surfers greater skill and propensity to use it in battle would keep orion on the defensive and would leave him open to toher attacks such as board blitzes.Surfer can also amp himself physically as well as his punches and strikes with energy (as we saw in his recent thrashing of BRB) and in melee, his board again is once a very lethal offensive weapon.

Scans of Orion growing giant of his own volition in battle within regular universe? Even if capable this is certanly not something that would seem in character for him. IF the Mother Box is working on Defensive Matter Manip and Energy Manip, Then that leaves Orion to use his powers on the offense. IF we are going to talk about character,then it is certainly not in character for Surfer to use his board as a lethal Offensive Weapon. Orion Grew Giant Sized when angry at Darksied and amped his energy so much that he blew a chunk out of the galaxy sized Apokolips. As for the Other time he grew, when he fought DS in countdown. He amped his physical and energy stats. Also, He unleashed his God powers when he fought the Infinity Man in DOTNG. If he has to, Orion would go God mode on Surfer. Surfer is all over the board as far as External energy is concerned. Some Times he goes mad from one star, other times he manipulates vast cosmic energies. I'll take his average. I don't see either character as having any advantage over the other when you look at the overal. Surfer Seems more durable, Orion heals fast and is almost as Durable. Surfer seems faster in flight, Orion seems faster on foot. Surfer Blasts more, Orion Blasts Harder. Surfer has his board as a weapon, Orion is stronger and a better fighter. Nieither can transmute the other. And Both can Amp. I do think Orion can amp beyond what Surfer can but, that's just my own personal Opinion. I also Believe Orion=Thor=Surfer=Earthman>>Superman.

Surfer takes this in any way

Originally posted by Nihilist
Surfer takes this in any way Excellent, well thought out, constructive response. I like Naija's responses better.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Excellent, well thought out, constructive response. I like Naija's responses better. I don't give a shit about what you think nvr, Surfer can easily hang with Orion and more powerful enery output wise

Originally posted by lightyeargee
IF the Mother Box is working on Defensive Matter Manip and Energy Manip, Then that leaves Orion to use his powers on the offense. IF we are going to talk about character,then it is certainly not in character for Surfer to use his board as a lethal Offensive Weapon. Orion Grew Giant Sized when angry at Darksied and amped his energy so much that he blew a chunk out of the galaxy sized Apokolips. As for the Other time he grew, when he fought DS in countdown. He amped his physical and energy stats. Also, He unleashed his God powers when he fought the Infinity Man in DOTNG. If he has to, Orion would go God mode on Surfer. Surfer is all over the board as far as External energy is concerned. Some Times he goes mad from one star, other times he manipulates vast cosmic energies. I'll take his average. I don't see either character as having any advantage over the other when you look at the overal.

Actually, yes it is VERY MUCH in character for surfer to use his board as an offensive weapon, he has done it numerous times ( i ca n provide scans of this) with Godhunter being the most recent. Furthermore Orion going giant size perhaps once on Apokolips shows how out of character it is for him. Also i would actually like to see the scans of the incident to see if there is any extra context surrounding his growing giant and if it was down to his volition and will. Im not an orion expert but iirc his giant form is his true form God form and hence he uses/needs a boomtube to become regualr size while in the regular universe. Him simply willing himself to grow huge in the regular universe has never happened to my knwoledge. Also actually surfer isnt all over the board as far as external energy is concerned. He has far more good and even great feats than he does lower ones.



Aside durability surfer also does have very good healing abilities and can draw on energy from nearly anywhere in order to heal himself ( scans of this are also available). Surfer is faster in flight and in combat. I have not seen anything to indicate orion blasts harder. Indeed Orion is stronger and a better fighter, but Surfers near indestructable far FTL board serves as a weapon that can be used while he is attacking through other means and therefore gives surfer an alternative lethal method of attack that can be used simultaneously and hence not only is it capable of inflicting serious damage on its own. but its constant presence will open up other attacking options for surfer. This provides a much greater advantage than simple superior martial arts prowess.

Orion

orion has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Orion is just as versatile.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
orion has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Orion is just as versatile. Surfer has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Surfer is just as versatile.

Originally posted by BattleMage
Surfer has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Surfer is just as versatile. Body growth? ReallyN never seen surfer grow giant size.

Originally posted by BattleMage
Surfer has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Surfer is just as versatile.

I never said Surfer wasn't versatile.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
orion has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Orion is just as versatile. No, he isn't. Surfer is more versatile.

Nah.

Surfer is more versatile. He consistently does "new" shiet when he makes his apperances. I'm not saying Orion is not versatile, but Surfer has done more if you go feat for feat.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
orion has also shown healing factor, intangibility, time travel, matter manipulation, weather manipulation, body growth, invisibility, tracking, energy absorption, telepathy, etc... Yeah, Orion is just as versatile.
Is that all? Because Surfer definitely beats that.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Surfer is more versatile. He consistently does "new" shiet when he makes his apperances. I'm not saying Orion is not versatile, but Surfer has done more if you go feat for feat.

Maybe through sheer appearances, perhaps, but they are basically about the same. What exactly has Surfer done that Orion hasn't?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Is that all? Because Surfer definitely beats that.

No, that's not all. I also forgot to mention magnetism, telepathy, super speed, etc... Among other crap. Someone here posted pretty much all of Orion's versatility feats and it was a long list.

Surfer is definitely more versatile on a regular basis, yes, but in a fight that's going to be irrelevant. Orion is going to be able to counter essentially anything the Surfer brings to the table in terms of versatility -- he doesn't have matter manipulation to the Surfer's level, but he's got enough of it that Surfer isn't going to be manipulating his body, for instance. He's got BETTER teleportation, BETTER healing, more frequent intangibility, as good cosmic senses (thanks to Mother Box), etc.

Orion is a better fighter, he's more tenancious, he's tougher (tougher being distinct from more durable) and he's got at least comparable energy outputs. I say he wins, in one hell of a fight, against classic Surfer. Orion 6/10.

Originally posted by Naija boy
For the new genesis thing, isnt new genesis in a parrallel dimension?

Another universe, actually. The 'greater' universe.




Originally, you'd be right on the money. As Kirby introduced it, it was clear that the Boom Tube was meant to replace the Rainbow Bridge, destroyed during Ragnarok. Other methods of more mundane teleportation were demonstrated by Barda and the Forever People (Phasing Out, electron highway), but overtime the Boom Tube has come to be used for both interdimensional and spatial teleportation.

Either way he's teleporting, though, and does so regularly and tactically on numerous occasions. It just makes a lot of sense, given the ease with which he can do it.



The examples of Surfer's combat speed, legitimate examples (rather than the stuff that gets passed off as combat speed...rushing and what not) are few and far between, about as many as Orion's I'd wager.



It certainly wasn't BFR, no. It was specifically said that only the Astro Force was capable of counteracting the energies wielded by the device.

The rest of your argument feels nitpicky to me -- how else would a bomb destroy an entire universe, save by acting on a fundamental level? Any other type of bomb/blast would be limited by the speed of light, and would take billions of years to destroy the universe.

I think the intent of the scene/feat is pretty clear.



That...does not come close. We know that the energies wielded by the bomb were enough to destroy an entire universe, on a fundamental level. Orion stopped it, and was fine. Surfer accessed some amount of universal energy, an unknown amount, and the act of it nearly killed him (and would have, if not for the intervention of Galactus).




Given the sheer number of caveats associated with this 'feat' - needing to absorb blackbody (before absorbing black body Surfer could barely process a single soul), having been changed by being in a different universe, the fact that it may not have been 616 Surfer at all, etc - I'd say this claim is dubious at best, and intentionally misleading at worst.



But he's also prone to being exceedingly ineffective in battle against warrior-like foes such as Thor. He's missing the spirit and skill. Orion does what he needs to do to get the job done, and nothing more, I agree, but it's because it serves him well.

Originally posted by Desaad
Another universe, actually. The 'greater' universe.
Originally, you'd be right on the money. As Kirby introduced it, it was clear that the Boom Tube was meant to replace the Rainbow Bridge, destroyed during Ragnarok. Other methods of more mundane teleportation were demonstrated by Barda and the Forever People (Phasing Out, electron highway), but overtime the Boom Tube has come to be used for both interdimensional and spatial teleportation.


This is actually in agreement with my earlier suggestion of interdimensional travel/teleportation being needed to move from fourth world to the regular universe.



This is just categorically false, and im willing to do a feat by feat comparison if you wish. Surfer has examples of attacking while manoevring in a non-linear manner at superspeed, these are much more than just "rushes". And I'd wager that in totality his combat feats are more impressive than Orions.



I only suggested bfr as a possibility since we dont actually see what happened. But that point wasnt a core part of my argument hence the reason i didnt press it. However your attempt rationalize that affecting the universe at the fundamental level is the only way a bomb would be able to destroy the universe is extremely faulty. Firstly these are comics and so attempting to apply such reasoning to them is doomed to futility. Not only that but we have seen such explosions capable of consuming galaxies (which would already make your suggestion invalid) as well as even universes. However this is all tangential to the core of the argument anyways so its of little relevance.



IIRC, the energies of the bomb had just begun radiating from it and it was the portion of energy that had radiated that orion somehow counteracted and then sealed off the bomb. Surfer however personally wielded the universal energies of the crunch while already in a near death state and used them to destroy T and A. Yes he almost died but he was firstly in terrible condition when he attempted the feat, and secondly we get a good view of the level of difficulty of actually wielding the crunch energies from Galactus himself who mentions that even he cannot long withstand the manipulating them (so we know that the crunch can consume near abstract entities like Galactus as well). Considering all that, and the fact the nature of orions and surfers feats greatly differ, then Surfer nearly dying from doing the feat does not really diminish it at all and they are certainly at comparable levels.



Actually in regards to this feat, the only real point of contention is its canonicity and i believe a case can certainly be made for it. Surfers absorption of the blackbody or his presence in a different universe play no roles in the performance of this feat as surfer specifically mentions that its his own power (PC) that enables him to transform energy into any form he may wish.



If anything, Surfers supposed "ineffectiveness" against Thor (which is a spurious claim in and of itself and even moreso since this is a forum battle) has to do with thors propensity for energy absorption using mjolnir (as seen in his initial battle with against thor) not some abstract warrior persona. Really if ur referring to Thor in blood and thunder then at the very least, that was thor not operating the way he is normally portrayed and (amp or no amp) and he can therefore certainly NOT be used as some sort of parrallel for orion. Moreover in a forum battle "warrior spirit" serves as an even flatter argument with the existence of the no pis and full capacity rules. Additionally still, Surfers destruction of BRB further refutes any supposed problems he has with "warriors" (not that such reasoning had any legs to stand on in the first place).

Originally posted by Naija boy
This is actually in agreement with my earlier suggestion of interdimensional travel/teleportation being needed to move from fourth world to the regular universe.



This is just categorically false, and im willing to do a feat by feat comparison if you wish. Surfer has examples of attacking while manoevring in a non-linear manner at superspeed, these are much more than just "rushes". And I'd wager that in totality his combat feats are more impressive than Orions.



I only suggested bfr as a possibility since we dont actually see what happened. But that point wasnt a core part of my argument hence the reason i didnt press it. However your attempt rationalize that affecting the universe at the fundamental level is the only way a bomb would be able to destroy the universe is extremely faulty. Firstly these are comics and so attempting to apply such reasoning to them is doomed to futility. Not only that but we have seen such explosions capable of consuming galaxies (which would already make your suggestion invalid) as well as even universes. However this is all tangential to the core of the argument anyways so its of little relevance.



IIRC, the energies of the bomb had just begun radiating from it and it was the portion of energy that had radiated that orion somehow counteracted and then sealed off the bomb. Surfer however personally wielded the universal energies of the crunch while already in a near death state and used them to destroy T and A. Yes he almost died but he was firstly in terrible condition when he attempted the feat, and secondly we get a good view of the level of difficulty of actually wielding the crunch energies from Galactus himself who mentions that even he cannot long withstand the manipulating them (so we know that the crunch can consume near abstract entities like Galactus as well). Considering all that, and the fact the nature of orions and surfers feats greatly differ, then Surfer nearly dying from doing the feat does not really diminish it at all and they are certainly at comparable levels.



Actually in regards to this feat, the only real point of contention is its canonicity and i believe a case can certainly be made for it. Surfers absorption of the blackbody or his presence in a different universe play no roles in the performance of this feat as surfer specifically mentions that its his own power (PC) that enables him to transform energy into any form he may wish.



If anything, Surfers supposed "ineffectiveness" against Thor (which is a spurious claim in and of itself and even moreso since this is a forum battle) has to do with thors propensity for energy absorption using mjolnir (as seen in his initial battle with against thor) not some abstract warrior persona. Really if ur referring to Thor in blood and thunder then at the very least, that was thor not operating the way he is normally portrayed and (amp or no amp) and he can therefore certainly NOT be used as some sort of parrallel for orion. Moreover in a forum battle "warrior spirit" serves as an even flatter argument with the existence of the no pis and full capacity rules. Additionally still, Surfers destruction of BRB further refutes any supposed problems he has with "warriors" (not that such reasoning had any legs to stand on in the first place). I totally argee

Originally posted by Naija boy
This is actually in agreement with my earlier suggestion of interdimensional travel/teleportation being needed to move from fourth world to the regular universe.



This is just categorically false, and im willing to do a feat by feat comparison if you wish. Surfer has examples of attacking while manoevring in a non-linear manner at superspeed, these are much more than just "rushes". And I'd wager that in totality his combat feats are more impressive than Orions.



I only suggested bfr as a possibility since we dont actually see what happened. But that point wasnt a core part of my argument hence the reason i didnt press it. However your attempt rationalize that affecting the universe at the fundamental level is the only way a bomb would be able to destroy the universe is extremely faulty. Firstly these are comics and so attempting to apply such reasoning to them is doomed to futility. Not only that but we have seen such explosions capable of consuming galaxies (which would already make your suggestion invalid) as well as even universes. However this is all tangential to the core of the argument anyways so its of little relevance.



IIRC, the energies of the bomb had just begun radiating from it and it was the portion of energy that had radiated that orion somehow counteracted and then sealed off the bomb. Surfer however personally wielded the universal energies of the crunch while already in a near death state and used them to destroy T and A. Yes he almost died but he was firstly in terrible condition when he attempted the feat, and secondly we get a good view of the level of difficulty of actually wielding the crunch energies from Galactus himself who mentions that even he cannot long withstand the manipulating them (so we know that the crunch can consume near abstract entities like Galactus as well). Considering all that, and the fact the nature of orions and surfers feats greatly differ, then Surfer nearly dying from doing the feat does not really diminish it at all and they are certainly at comparable levels.



Actually in regards to this feat, the only real point of contention is its canonicity and i believe a case can certainly be made for it. Surfers absorption of the blackbody or his presence in a different universe play no roles in the performance of this feat as surfer specifically mentions that its his own power (PC) that enables him to transform energy into any form he may wish.



If anything, Surfers supposed "ineffectiveness" against Thor (which is a spurious claim in and of itself and even moreso since this is a forum battle) has to do with thors propensity for energy absorption using mjolnir (as seen in his initial battle with against thor) not some abstract warrior persona. Really if ur referring to Thor in blood and thunder then at the very least, that was thor not operating the way he is normally portrayed and (amp or no amp) and he can therefore certainly NOT be used as some sort of parrallel for orion. Moreover in a forum battle "warrior spirit" serves as an even flatter argument with the existence of the no pis and full capacity rules. Additionally still, Surfers destruction of BRB further refutes any supposed problems he has with "warriors" (not that such reasoning had any legs to stand on in the first place). If Surfer has had Problems with Thor because of Thor's energy absorbing power, then How is he going to do against Orion who walks thru energy wielders with ease, and Manipulates Vast amounts of energy via his own AF and His Mother box? He has Dual Energy absorbtion and manipulation powers. Come now. You made the case that Orion is even better matched against Surfer than Thor is. Also, Orion Flew from New Gen to Earth. didn't boom tube. it even says so in the comic panel. Flew.

Originally posted by Naija boy
This is actually in agreement with my earlier suggestion of interdimensional travel/teleportation being needed to move from fourth world to the regular universe.

Yes, I was backing up one part of your claim while clarifying the nature of the Boom Tube and the way it's evolved over the years.





And I'm sure you'd bring in plenty of examples that you'd argue as Super Speed perceptions, and I'd argue that only 2 or 3 of those were actually legitimate, and I'd bring in evidence of Green Lanterns explicitly using human perceptions to perform similar feats, and you'd counter by claiming that small differences make all the difference, etc.

I've been down this road many times before, and I'm not too terribly keen on going down it again. Suffice it to say, my definition of 'super speed perceptions' is probably a great deal more particular than yours, and there aren't so many characters I view as actually having them.

And yes, I'm sure you'd have more examples of Surfer using true super speed perceptions than would I for Orion, but would they be a greater percentage of his appearances? Given that he's got hundreds more, I mean to say.





Yeah, I know why you did it. You were searching for a way to cast doubt on the feat, and being careful not to make any outright assertions in case someone called you on it.

There is no way that BFR would have been a possibility, when everything else indicates that it's the nature and power of the Astro Force - a primarily destructive energy - that allowed the feat to be accomplished.

Just because it happened off panel doesn't mean that I can claim that, for instance, he actually contained the energies in the palm of his hand while simultaneously trapping Mageddon at the edge of space time and warding off Imperiex.




No, your attempt at casting doubt on the feat by making bizarre - and ultimately nonsensical - distinctions as to the method of the destruction of the fabric of reality is without merit, so far as I can tell.




You opened up the topic by arguing that the method by which the universe was destroyed was somehow less valid than other methods by which the universe might be destroyed.

I have no interest in dissecting the physics of universal destruction. I'm content to take it as it was presented -- a bomb that was set to destroy the universe could only be contained by the energies of the Astro Force.




Wow, what happened to it being off panel? What happened to it being impossible to reason out the method, nature, and mechanism of the bomb and the bomb's energies?

For what it's worth, the bomb had apparently released enough where every being across the universe was feeling the effects of it.





How long is 'not long' to a being like Galactus, who has existed longer than the universe has existed?

It's comics, after all -- any attempt to understand such beings is ultimately a fruitless endeavor, because it's not the real world.

Right?




Why are they are comparable levels? How does the fact that they differ somehow equalize them? That's insanely wrong headed. One of them is a feat of energy absorption, the other is a feat of energy generation. One of them is a feat of universal scale, the other is unquantifiable (yes, unquantifiable, given the number of things that have been known to hurt, weaken, or nearly kill Galactus).





No, canonicty is not the only point of contention. The events of the series itself make it clear that the Blackbody boosted his powers dramatically. Think about it, before he had the black body he could barely manipulate/absorb the energy of a single soul. Afterwards, he was able to perform the above feat (nevermind the fact that the souls in question came WILLINGLY in an effort to defeat the Uni-Lord, casting doubt as to how much actual manipulation the Surfer was doing).

And, again, while certainly an argument can be made that it's in continuity, an equally compelling argument can (and has) been made for it's status as an other universe tale.

And by the way, as evidenced with the Watcher, entering the other universe does change the nature of the power of cosmic beings.





If you're going to make an effort to belittle my claims, make the effort, please.

Why is my claim spurious? Some actual reasoning would be lovely.




In Surfer's first battle against Thor - in which he had the power of Loki added to his own - Stan Lee specifically has him stating that the power within Mjolnir is greater than his own Power Cosmic.

It really doesn't get any more direct than that.

As to energy absorption claim, I'd remind you that in their one conclusive battle Thor didn't once use energy absorption, just hit him in the face with the hammer and knocked him out.



It was Thor acting STUPIDER than usual, and wilder, against a Surfer who was angry and explicitly states that he's trying to take Thor out.

What else do you want?




None of those rules include a change of the Surfer's personality, nor an increase in his skill or motivation level.





Was BRB knocked out? Was that a conclusive battle?

Of course not.

Surfer's problems against Black Panther, for instance, DO seem to indicate an issue with skilled, canny warriors. He's had similar problems against Midnight Sun (despite being far less powerful, with no offensive abilities) and other such canny fighters.

No, it isn't universal, and I acknowledge that, but he's an unskilled pacifist. It's natural that he's going to be at a disadvantage against a highly skilled, highly trained warrior who has been single handidly fighting off Apokoliptan armies since he could walk.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
If Surfer has had Problems with Thor because of Thor's energy absorbing power, then How is he going to do against Orion who walks thru energy wielders with ease, and Manipulates Vast amounts of energy via his own AF and His Mother box? He has Dual Energy absorbtion and manipulation powers. Come now. You made the case that Orion is even better matched against Surfer than Thor is. Also, Orion Flew from New Gen to Earth. didn't boom tube. it even says so in the comic panel. Flew.

That's not really possible. You can't get from New Genesis to Earth without a Boom Tube, or something similar. Even magical teleportation has its problems, and while the Guardians have accomplished it before even GL rings didn't seem up to the task.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
If Surfer has had Problems with Thor because of Thor's energy absorbing power, then How is he going to do against Orion who walks thru energy wielders with ease, and Manipulates Vast amounts of energy via his own AF and His Mother box? He has Dual Energy absorbtion and manipulation powers. Come now. You made the case that Orion is even better matched against Surfer than Thor is. Also, Orion Flew from New Gen to Earth. didn't boom tube. it even says so in the comic panel. Flew.

By having problems with Thor due to energy absorbing powers i mean it makes the match much more even between them. In no way am i referring to him being outmatched just because thor is a great energy absorber (better than orion for that matter). Ive already mentioned that this is a close and therefore pretty even match therefore that entire point is moot. As for the boomtube thing ill await the scan and see my earlier posts explaining why it is ambiguous regardless. Moreover that feat adds little to this discussion anyway as it wouldnt contribute towards the outcome of this match.

Originally posted by Desaad
That's not really possible. You can't get from New Genesis to Earth without a Boom Tube, or something similar. Even magical teleportation has its problems, and while the Guardians have accomplished it before even GL rings didn't seem up to the task. Earth Angel Supergirl did it as well. She flew there with no Boom tube and no Tp.

Originally posted by Naija boy
By having problems with Thor due to energy absorbing powers i mean it makes the match much more even between them. In no way am i referring to him being outmatched just because thor is a great energy absorber (better than orion for that matter). Ive already mentioned that this is a close and therefore pretty even match therefore that entire point is moot. As for the boomtube thing ill await the scan and see my earlier posts explaining why it is ambiguous regardless. Moreover that feat adds little to this discussion anyway as it wouldnt contribute towards the outcome of this match. Orion's Best energy Absorbtion feat Universal in level. Plus He's got the MB that does it even better with unreal computer intelligence. Double Absorbing power.

surfer isn't a ginger, Orion is.

Surfer ftw.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Earth Angel Supergirl did it as well. She flew there with no Boom tube and no Tp.

She teleported, magically, and as a result was the size of an insect.

Characters have done it without a Boom Tube, but it's rare. And none of them have ever done it, to the best of my knowledge, without dimension-crossing technology (barring, perhaps, the Conway run of "Return..".

Because the New Gods are in a different, separate universe. You can't get there via anything approaching normal means. It's not a matter of flying fast enough, you have to cross serious dimensional barriers.

And if Final Crisis is to be counted, no mortal as EVER really crossed into the NG universe.

Originally posted by amnesia
surfer isn't a ginger, Orion is.

Surfer ftw.

GINGERS HAVE SOULS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY39fkmqKBM

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Orion's Best energy Absorbtion feat Universal in level. Plus He's got the MB that does it even better with unreal computer intelligence. Double Absorbing power.

To be clear, that wasn't an energy absorption feat. That was Orion matching and containing the energies, specifically because the Astro Force was the only energy powerful enough to do so.

Orion has very few energy absorption feats. Mother Box allows them, but I certainly wouldn't count on it in a battle, and certainly nothing to the level that Thor or the Surfer have in their record.

Originally posted by Desaad
To be clear, that wasn't an energy absorption feat. That was Orion matching and containing the energies, specifically because the Astro Force was the only energy powerful enough to do so.

Orion has very few energy absorption feats. Mother Box allows them, but I certainly wouldn't count on it in a battle, and certainly nothing to the level that Thor or the Surfer have in their record. Of Course Not. They have longer Records.

Originally posted by Desaad
GINGERS HAVE SOULS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY39fkmqKBM

south park says differently.

Yes, but their highs are also much higher.

If Orion had even one thing on the level of, say, Thor absorbing the death bomb that could destroy 1/5th of the universe, I'd be more inclined to accept that there is a parity there.

But he doesn't. He has almost nothing of the sort to his name, only minor things here and there, and almost never tactically (ie, why not just absorb the sunlight out of Superman's cells? Or out of Lightray?).

It's a Lightray thing, not a Orion thing.

Originally posted by amnesia
south park says differently.

Yeah, that was the po---

Nevermind.

Originally posted by Desaad
She teleported, magically, and as a result was the size of an insect.

Characters have done it without a Boom Tube, but it's rare. And none of them have ever done it, to the best of my knowledge, without dimension-crossing technology (barring, perhaps, the Conway run of "Return..".

Because the New Gods are in a different, separate universe. You can't get there via anything approaching normal means. It's not a matter of flying fast enough, you have to cross serious dimensional barriers.

And if Final Crisis is to be counted, no mortal as EVER really crossed into the NG universe.
What is he doing here?

http://s419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/fangirl101_photos/Orion/?action=view&current=ng_16_p04.jpg

Originally posted by Desaad
Yes, but their highs are also much higher.

If Orion had even one thing on the level of, say, Thor absorbing the death bomb that could destroy 1/5th of the universe, I'd be more inclined to accept that there is a parity there.

But he doesn't. He has almost nothing of the sort to his name, only minor things here and there, and almost never tactically (ie, why not just absorb the sunlight out of Superman's cells? Or out of Lightray?).

It's a Lightray thing, not a Orion thing. I dont' have this comic but from the thread it's in, it looks like he's absorbing the entirety of the ALE infected in beings. That is an awesome absorbtion feat. He's absorbing Anti-life.http://s419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/fangirl101_photos/Orion/?action=view&current=Orion11p15.jpg

Yeah, that's from Conway's "Return of the New Gods" run, which contradicts everything else we have ever seen about the New Gods, and was essentially retconned out of existence when Kirby wrote "Hunger Dogs".

Final Crisis, in a way, brought it back into continuity, but if you go by the Final Crisis catch-all inclusive retcon then the New Gods are too powerful and too unknown to debate.

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, that's from Conway's "Return of the New Gods" run, which contradicts everything else we have ever seen about the New Gods, and was essentially retconned out of existence when Kirby wrote "Hunger Dogs".

Final Crisis, in a way, brought it back into continuity, but if you go by the Final Crisis catch-all inclusive retcon then the New Gods are too powerful and too unknown to debate. Have a question, There were New Gods in the Another Nail Story. But in the first Crisis, it was only one set of them, like the Gaurdians. Are there other New Gods or just multiple versions of the same ones in like different bodies?

Originally posted by lightyeargee
I dont' have this comic but from the thread it's in, it looks like he's absorbing the entirety of the ALE infected in beings. That is an awesome absorbtion feat. He's absorbing Anti-life.http://s419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/fangirl101_photos/Orion/?action=view&current=Orion11p15.jpg

That's not what happened there. Desaad mobilized and activated the remaining Anti Life Equation fragments that he controlled from the people of Mainline Nebraska into a destructive energy beam, for lack of a better word.

That blast was burning away Orion's cortex and very nearly killed him. It was only his own darkness, stoked by Darkseid's manipulations, and the modifications made to his mind via the Billion Dollar Bates clones (along with the clones' will to turn Orion into their "revenge...against the living!" that allowed him to survive and, indeed, gain control of the Anti Life Equation.

Has nothing to do with energy absorption.

Originally posted by Desaad
That's not what happened there. Desaad mobilized and activated the remaining Anti Life Equation fragments that he controlled from the people of Mainline Nebraska into a destructive energy beam, for lack of a better word.

That blast was burning away Orion's cortex and very nearly killed him. It was only his own darkness, stoked by Darkseid's manipulations, and the modifications made to his mind via the Billion Dollar Bates clones (along with the clones' will to turn Orion into their "revenge...against the living!" that allowed him to survive and, indeed, gain control of the Anti Life Equation.

Has nothing to do with energy absorption. That was all complicated. Was it an energy beam made of ALE? And what happened to it if he didn't absorb it and or control it?

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Have a question, There were New Gods in the Another Nail Story. But in the first Crisis, it was only one set of them, like the Gaurdians. Are there other New Gods or just multiple versions of the same ones in like different bodies?

There are New Gods in a number of Elseworlds. It's never been explicitly stated, but there are a number of hints that indicate that there is only one set of true New Gods in all the multiverse/hypertime, and that they exist on a plane 'beyond' the normal, physical realm.

All the New Gods that anyone interacts with are just...flesh suits. Shadows, avatars, of those true New Gods. This is the idea of Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis -- thats what I'm talking about with it being extremely inclusive. Grant Morrison's retcon simultaneously makes every story containing any New God in continuity, and makes everything out of continuity.

Also, during "Hypertension", a Superboy story, it's heavily hinted that only one Metron exists in all of Hypertime. And Dan Didio came out and said that there was just one set of New Gods.

So basically, there is one set of "True" New Gods that you and I have never seen. The death of this 'true' Darkseid caused the progressive decay of the multiverse in Final Crisis, and the manifestation of that Darkseid was the closest we came to seeing a New God in full glory (but he himself was dying, having been badly wounded by Orion even as Orion was dying).

All the other appearances we've seen of the New Gods -- Kirby's, Simonson's, Conway's, Loeb's, Byrne's, etc -- those are all just parts of the New Gods interacting with the lesser/physical universe. Including Elseworlds, I suppose. It's a genius way to reconcile all the conflicting histories and versions of the New Gods, really, but it's problematic in terms of making them a viable franchise. And it's REALLY problematic if you're trying to debate about them.

Originally posted by Desaad
There are New Gods in a number of Elseworlds. It's never been explicitly stated, but there are a number of hints that indicate that there is only one set of true New Gods in all the multiverse/hypertime, and that they exist on a plane 'beyond' the normal, physical realm.

All the New Gods that anyone interacts with are just...flesh suits. Shadows, avatars, of those true New Gods. This is the idea of Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis -- thats what I'm talking about with it being extremely inclusive. Grant Morrison's retcon simultaneously makes every story containing any New God in continuity, and makes everything out of continuity.

Also, during "Hypertension", a Superboy story, it's heavily hinted that only one Metron exists in all of Hypertime. And Dan Didio came out and said that there was just one set of New Gods.

So basically, there is one set of "True" New Gods that you and I have never seen. The death of this 'true' Darkseid caused the progressive decay of the multiverse in Final Crisis, and the manifestation of that Darkseid was the closest we came to seeing a New God in full glory (but he himself was dying, having been badly wounded by Orion even as Orion was dying).

All the other appearances we've seen of the New Gods -- Kirby's, Simonson's, Conway's, Loeb's, Byrne's, etc -- those are all just parts of the New Gods interacting with the lesser/physical universe. Including Elseworlds, I suppose. It's a genius way to reconcile all the conflicting histories and versions of the New Gods, really, but it's problematic in terms of making them a viable franchise. And it's REALLY problematic if you're trying to debate about them.
Just gotta debate the flesh suit version of them. Specifically naming which version we are refering too. I think The franchise can be good if someone awesome writes a story about them and no heroes. NO outside contact with earth. Maybe some abstacts like the endless or something.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
That was all complicated. Was it an energy beam made of ALE? And what happened to it if he didn't absorb it and or control it?

it's not that complicated. It's just Desaad utilizing the remaining Anti Life artifacts in the only way he could. He could no longer directly control Orion, as he did earlier in the arc, so he condensed it all down into a solid, mentally destructive energy beam. Orion took the beam, and it was killing him, but through a number of special circumstances he instead gained the Anti Life Equation.

Even as he was dying, though, he did manage to snap Desaad's neck.

Originally posted by Desaad
it's not that complicated. It's just Desaad utilizing the remaining Anti Life artifacts in the only way he could. He could no longer directly control Orion, as he did earlier in the arc, so he condensed it all down into a solid, mentally destructive energy beam. Orion took the beam, and it was killing him, but through a number of special circumstances he instead gained the Anti Life Equation.

Even as he was dying, though, he did manage to snap Desaad's neck. So he was tanking a beam of ALE even tho it was killing him slowly? How did he control it? If it was energy?

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Just gotta debate the flesh suit version of them. Specifically naming which version we are refering too. I think The franchise can be good if someone awesome writes a story about them and no heroes. NO outside contact with earth. Maybe some abstacts like the endless or something.

Yeah, that's mostly what I do. I basically treat the Final Crisis stuff as though it never happened, and debate the rest of it. So all the other retcons about Avatars, Desaad, and all that stuff I take into account. Especially the Conway stuff, which was abysmal, doesn't count because Kirby himself made an effort to wipe it away.

Unless someone gets really nitpicky, and then Final Crisis definitely comes into it.

And I agree that the New Gods would work quite well as a Vertigo series, but I don't know who I'd want to write it. There aren't many writers who I feel could really do it. Only Simonson, after Kirby, ever demonstrated a knack for the characters. Morrison did something interesting with them, but missed a lot of the complexity of Darkseid and Orion (though I'd still read a Morrison New Gods in a heartbeat, since I'm sure he'd do something interesting). Gaiman gets mythology and nuance enough to do something special with them. After Mike Carey's Lucifer, I would have said that he could have done it, but then his Ultimate Fantastic Four basically did a New Gods rip off story and he got rid of all the ambiguity and depth that makes the characters so compelling. Paul Cornell has been knocking it out of the park lately, and is taking on Gaiman's Death in Action Comics, so he might be able to do it. But then again, maybe not.

It's probably the toughest franchise in comics to tackle. I'm one of the biggest fans in the world, and I have no idea how I would approach a series like that. I suspect that's true of a lot of writers as well.

Originally posted by lightyeargee
So he was tanking a beam of ALE even tho it was killing him slowly? How did he control it? If it was energy?

Again, he didn't control it. It was beamed at him as destructive energy. When Superman survives and energy beam, he didn't absorb it, he just took it.

Same deal with Orion, but THIS energy beam was special, attacking the brain/mind rather than the physicality. Imagine it as a physical manifestation of a telepathic attack. It was pieces of the Anti Life Equation, condensed into a beam, using a Billion Dollar Bates simulcram to do it (Billion Dollar Bates being the only being ever known to that point to have harnessed the complete Anti Life Equation).

But the beam had...will, because it was the manifestation of the will of the Billion Dollar Bates clones, the rest of which Orion had previously destroyed. As their final revenge against the living, they bequeathed there Anti Life Equation to Orion, who then used it to very nearly take over the entire universe.

It's not a feat for Orion in anything but badassry and pain tolerance. It's a GREAT scene though.

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, that's mostly what I do. I basically treat the Final Crisis stuff as though it never happened, and debate the rest of it. So all the other retcons about Avatars, Desaad, and all that stuff I take into account. Especially the Conway stuff, which was abysmal, doesn't count because Kirby himself made an effort to wipe it away.

Unless someone gets really nitpicky, and then Final Crisis definitely comes into it.

And I agree that the New Gods would work quite well as a Vertigo series, but I don't know who I'd want to write it. There aren't many writers who I feel could really do it. Only Simonson, after Kirby, ever demonstrated a knack for the characters. Morrison did something interesting with them, but missed a lot of the complexity of Darkseid and Orion (though I'd still read a Morrison New Gods in a heartbeat, since I'm sure he'd do something interesting). Gaiman gets mythology and nuance enough to do something special with them. After Mike Carey's Lucifer, I would have said that he could have done it, but then his Ultimate Fantastic Four basically did a New Gods rip off story and he got rid of all the ambiguity and depth that makes the characters so compelling. Paul Cornell has been knocking it out of the park lately, and is taking on Gaiman's Death in Action Comics, so he might be able to do it. But then again, maybe not.

It's probably the toughest franchise in comics to tackle. I'm one of the biggest fans in the world, and I have no idea how I would approach a series like that. I suspect that's true of a lot of writers as well. The best way to approach the story would be to tell it from the beginning. All the way. From the Old Gods up. The Promethian Giants, etc. While in the second half, writing about the current fights and exploits of the New Gods. Space adventures with Flesh suits of Orion, Barda and Lightray, while showing crazy cosmic Battles between DS, Highfather, and other guys like, Order and Chaos, Death, etc.

Well, I strongly disagree with that. I think one of the best things that one can do with mythology based characters like this is leave a large degree of mystery in the air. Over explanation and over chronicling the history of everything is...well, it's boring.

That's what makes the work of Gaiman, Simonson and Morrison so strong. They leave certain things to the imagination, ask you to meet them half way and fill in parts of the story yourself. It makes every story personal, and it allows each person to choose the interpretation that they like best.

Originally posted by Desaad
Well, I strongly disagree with that. I think one of the best things that one can do with mythology based characters like this is leave a large degree of mystery in the air. Over explanation and over chronicling the history of everything is...well, it's boring.

That's what makes the work of Gaiman, Simonson and Morrison so strong. They leave certain things to the imagination, ask you to meet them half way and fill in parts of the story yourself. It makes every story personal, and it allows each person to choose the interpretation that they like best. You don't have to tell what happened to the 3rd World Gods. But you can do stories on the 1st and 2nd World Gods. Kinda like a prelude. If you skip the 3rd world chapter and fade into a phuked up 4th world, were they are in constant battle but no one knows what happened, it could be good.

Originally posted by Desaad
Yeah, that's mostly what I do. I basically treat the Final Crisis stuff as though it never happened, and debate the rest of it. So all the other retcons about Avatars, Desaad, and all that stuff I take into account. Especially the Conway stuff, which was abysmal, doesn't count because Kirby himself made an effort to wipe it away.

Unless someone gets really nitpicky, and then Final Crisis definitely comes into it.

And I agree that the New Gods would work quite well as a Vertigo series, but I don't know who I'd want to write it. There aren't many writers who I feel could really do it. Only Simonson, after Kirby, ever demonstrated a knack for the characters. Morrison did something interesting with them, but missed a lot of the complexity of Darkseid and Orion (though I'd still read a Morrison New Gods in a heartbeat, since I'm sure he'd do something interesting). Gaiman gets mythology and nuance enough to do something special with them. After Mike Carey's Lucifer, I would have said that he could have done it, but then his Ultimate Fantastic Four basically did a New Gods rip off story and he got rid of all the ambiguity and depth that makes the characters so compelling. Paul Cornell has been knocking it out of the park lately, and is taking on Gaiman's Death in Action Comics, so he might be able to do it. But then again, maybe not.

It's probably the toughest franchise in comics to tackle. I'm one of the biggest fans in the world, and I have no idea how I would approach a series like that. I suspect that's true of a lot of writers as well.

What did you think of Byrnes work?

Originally posted by cdtm
What did you think of Byrnes work?

Not offensively bad in the way that Conway's and Starlin's was/is but generally mediocre, with a mission statement (keep everything the same, go in circles, don't make waves) that runs counter to Kirby's concept behind the New Gods (evolution, change, originality).

Genesis was pretty horrible, but most of his stories were just forgettable. The only good stuff that came out of that run (New Gods 13-15, JK4W 1-20) was the Kanto backup story written and drawn by - surprise surprise - Walt Simonson.




Simonson's run was unbearably good. Incredible stuff, even most of the backups.

Originally posted by Desaad
Not offensively bad in the way that... Starlin's was.

Including Cosmic Odyssey?





No question. It was a pleasure telling him how much I enjoyed his work, back when he posted on one of the boards.

His Orion work was every bit as good as his Thor run (He's really good with the little things, like the scene with Darkseid chuckling after a raging Justeen leaves and calling her a fireball) , and died well before it should have.

And imagine him doing an Orion/Thor crossover? It will never happen, but we can dream.

Originally posted by cdtm
Including Cosmic Odyssey?

Death of the New Gods was just an organic outgrowth of the truly awful work he did in Cosmic Odyssey.

Essentially, Starlin had exactly the opposite problem that Byrne did -- where Byrne's reverence for Kirby's work led to a stagnant, wholly mediocre run, Starlin's lack of respect and lack of understanding of Kirby's work led to an almost unrecognizable interpretation, one totally devoid of the nuance, complexity, and social and emotional relevance that characterized Kirby's initial run.

Starlin misinterpreted - either purposefully or out of sheer ignorance, I don't know - nearly ever aspect of Kirby's mythology. Orion as a representative of order, Darkseid of Chaos? The Anti Life 'equation' as an generic cosmic destroyer? The Old Gods as simple aliens? The New Gods as simple aliens? Orion as a racist, and an unthinking murderer?

It's also noteworthy that Cosmic Odyssey seems intent on elevating the heroes of the DCU to a moral status above that of the New Gods, not once but twice having a hero admonish the morally inferior Orion for his backward, small minded attitudes about race, war and death. All while making Darkseid a typical 'Muahahaha' villain, and an inept one at that.

Starlin continues this trend in "Death of..." with Superman's role in that story.

One thing I do give "Odyssey", though...Great, great mignola art.







Better, I thought, personally. More concerned with universal philosophical questions, at least. In a lot of ways I felt it was like the same type of evolution one saw between Kirby's Thor and Kirby's New Gods. One is great, the other is amazing.

didnt want to get into one of these wall of text battles *sigh* but, here we go.....

Originally posted by Desaad
Yes, I was backing up one part of your claim while clarifying the nature of the Boom Tube and the way it's evolved over the years.


k.



Actually if you brought your green lantern examples i would counter by showing the clear differences between they and the surfer example and show why they are not at all analalgous to the surfer ones. My definition of superspeed perception and criteria used is likely just as "particular" as yours with the only difference being my observation of the fulfillment of these criteria within the surfer feats as opposed to you. Also please reread, my statements as i focused on impressiveness and NOT number or percentage of times used. This is because as long as he has demonstrated the ability enough times for it to be considered a part of his powerset (which he has) then the amount of times he has used it is of little relevance given the existence of the NO PIS and full capacity rules which indicate that a character will fight to the best of his abilities as shown on panel. Percentages are therefore irrelevant here.



I was under the assumption that teleportation/BFR was one of the abilities afforded Orion by the astroforce as well as energy manipulation. Perhaps i was wrong on that acount. If not then BFR cannot be abruptly ruled out as a possibility. Ur examples are nothing short of comical and totally unrelated to this scenario however. In suggesting BFR, i was bringing forth a possibility of Orion performing a feat using a power afforded to him by the astroforce (if its not as i said before i am open to correction here) since we dont actually see how he used the astro force to accomplish it. This is in no way a parrallel to ur ludicrous analogies which involved bringing in external characters never shown to be present in the situation at all.lulz, what is more unfortunate, is ur attempt to advance ur argument by continuing to harp on a point i had already dropped before u even entered into the discussion in the first place.



u really need to reread the discussion. The distinction i made in regards to the method of destruction, was so as to clarify that the energy was not universal in scale but rather in scope. Hence it had specific properties which would cause the universe to collapse on itself and not by sheer destructive force. What i was therefore clarifying was that Orion didnt contain an amount of energy that filled/permeated the universe which if he did i would consider more impressive than surfers crunch feat but rather was able to contain and nullify energies with uniquely destructive properties (properties destructive enough to cause the collapse of the universe). i still went on to acknowledge its extreme level of impressiveness regardless of that fact.



Sigh. False, i did not argue that the method by which the universe was destroyed was less valid but rather clarified the method by which it was destroyed so that we would be able to better appraise the feat.
What u attempted to do rather was to impose nonsensical limitations on a fictional universe, limitations which have been shown time and time again to be invalid in similar situations.



LMAO, these inane ramblings and this state of confusion you are in could have easily been avoided by properly reading the posts. I mentioned that he counteracted the bomb off panel,which is true. I also mentioned in the post u replied what was plainly shown and mentioned on panel, which was that the bomb had just begun radiating its energy. Once again that is undoubtedly true No how in gods name does that relate to ur completely
faulty rationalization about the bomb. My mentioning of actual on panel occurences and descriptions is in no way similar to ur attempt to apply particular real life limitations to a fictional medium in which those real life limitations have been shown NOT to apply...



heh, more ludicrous ramblings topped off with laughable strawman argumentation. Ur attempt to make it seem that i said no real world terms can be applied to comics is downright pitiful. I faulted you on attempting to scientifically explain the internal workings of a bomb using limitations that have been shown to not apply within the comic universe in that particular context. Hence this in no way means that no concepts within the real world are applicable within the comics universe just that in this given context ur logic which was gleaned from real life technological limitations was innapplicable. facepalm i beg of u to stop with the fallacious reasoning. it only serves to diminish the value of the discussion.



In the post u quoted, i was not claiming that the fact they differed equalized them but rather that the feats differed in nature and with surfer actually wielding the energies of the crunch (in addittion to the other circumstances such as him being nearly dead prior to performing the feat) that him nearly dying after the feat does not diminish it. What equalizes them, is the fact that surfer channelled and wielded universal level energy which a near abstract being like galactus mentioned even he could not withstand for long. The situations u are referring to in which galactus is hurt or weakened are almost always a result of him being extremely hungry. His overall powerlevel however is certainly within the upper echelon of marvels hierarchy and this is not in doubt.

on a sidenote, describing the orion feat as one of energy absorption is really just speculation since we dont see what happened. we know he manipulated the energy in someway which is enough to warrant its impressiveness but that actual description (absorption) is certainly not a concrete one.

continued.


canonicity is the only point of contention. The blackbody is the only reason that surfer could absorb the souls of the beings in the unilords universe. Hence trying to use the fact that he couldnt absorb any souls before he got the blackbody to claim that the blackbody aided in the trasnformation of the souls is faulty. Absorbing souls was what the blackbody was used for and hence when it merged with surfer, he gained this ability. However surfer explicitly mentions that "his is the power to convert matter and energy into any form he chooses"(clearly referring to his PC) and that to merge with him all the soul energy assimilated within the blackbody he had to convert it to his cosmic configuration which only he controls. The fact that the souls came willingly is also of no consequence since it was never in question that the absorption process was not of surfers doing but rather was due to the blackbody. The only thing being attributed to surfer is what he downright said he did using his PC.

Furthermore, the watcher was changed by a virus which infected him yes but surfer was shown to have no such effects due to his entrance into that universe and so that example is also of no relevance.



lulz, Surfers "ineffectiveness" against thor is spurious because his only battle with thor as he is normally portrayed did not have a decisive outcome (with neither combatant suffering much if any damage), and he actually showed good battle know how by seperating thor from his hammer. lovely wouldnt u say?



This is just ridiculous. get ur argument straight. Surfer may have mentioned that mjolnirs magic was greater than his powercosmic but that is not at all related to ur references to thors warrior persona and mentality. All that would indicate is that Thors magical hammer is greater than surfers powercosmic, warrior mentality be damned. Id also remind you about the importance of reading, and to therefore read the post where i explained how B and T thor was a thor operating at beyond normal levels and who is hence not at all a parallel for orion or even for how surfer usually matches up against thor since he was portrayed much more powerful than usual.



it was also a thor that was written more powerfully than normal and who was taking out Surfer, Adam Warlock and the infinity watch at the same time. Seriously even hardcore thor fans accept that thor does not normally come off as that powerful (even if they dont accept that he was amped by warrior madness). Attempting to use him as a basis for how surfer does against warrior foes and subsequently a parrallel for orion is just foolish. All he can be used for is a basis to see how surfer does against foes who are shown to be more powerful than he is. end of story.




Skill in the use of his abilities has never been the problem. Failure to use them due to plot driven circumstances however has been. That is what those rules eliminate and which u are so desperately trying to ignore. Moreover surfer has recently shown a change in personality since becoming galactus herald and therefore even that point is moot.



BRB was laid out bloody in the fetal position with surfer standing over him telling him not to get up so he wouldnt have to hurt him more. Even without the ko that is undoubtedly a battle in which surfer was shown to be the superior. Attempting to claim otherwise and holding solely on to the fact that BRB wasnt koed is horribly pathetic and is even worse than some claiming that thanos won the battle between he and Odin (lol). Heh.....resorting to Surfers "problem" with black panther is really a sign of desperation considering that it was PIS ridden incident and utterly irrelevant by this forums rules. Surfer only "problems" with midnight sun came prior to utilizing his powers properly and holding back. When he changed this, midnight sun even admitted that surfer could have killed him but he chose not to. The full capacity rule invalidates such examples which were clearly plot driven as surfer will be fighting to the best of his ability here.

Additionally u need to realize that correlation does not necessitate causation. In comics superman at times has "problems" with slow moving bricks but that does not indicate that it is the very nature of their character (being slow moving bricks) that causes this. Rather after actually observing the fights we can see its due to another factor: he holds back against them and doesnt utilize his powers to the fullest from the get go. On a forum such as this which facilitates the efficient use of abilities however, he destroys them. Similarly with surfer, i could find examples of characters who seemingly put up good fights against him and all share the common trait of laser blasting. We do not go and assume that surfers problems automatically come from characters who blast lasers. Rather after analyzing each individual fight, we will observe the actual reasons surfer may have encountered problems with these characters and more often than not these reasons vary (ranging from him holding back or not using his powers efficiently, to them simply being more powerful, to them having specific other abilities that nicely counteract his own. etc)

Being a skilled warrior is undoubtedly an advantage but it is just one advantage amidst the advantages that both these characters have over each other. Attempting to portray it as some unique weakness of surfers based on examples that leave out context and demand the ignoring of the characters abilties is fallacious and not only that but is also a violation of forum rules.

I've come to the conclusion that Silver Surfer, Orion, and Thor are the true "high heralds" based on feats and opponents they have fought and or beaten. Everyone happy now?

add superman and flash and im cool with it

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I've come to the conclusion that Silver Surfer, Orion, and Thor are the true "high heralds" based on feats and opponents they have fought and or beaten. Everyone happy now?

I have Genis-Vell, higher then those 3. He is like a Higher Herald character. peaches

Originally posted by Desaad
In Surfer's first battle against Thor - in which he had the power of Loki added to his own - Stan Lee specifically has him stating that the power within Mjolnir is greater than his own Power Cosmic.

It really doesn't get any more direct than that.



I strongly disagree. Surfer DOES say "I have seen his mallet's magic! It truely is mightier than my cosmic force!" while he keeps Thor's hammer at bay with a force field...

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/combat/FM_1980_004_34.jpg

But on the page RIGHT before Surfer's statement...

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/combat/FM_1980_004_33.jpg

...we see Surfer try to keep Thor seperated from his hammer via energy blasts and during that period Surfer's blasts were sometimes called blasts of cosmic force. Here's an instance of one being referred to as such by Surfer three issue's earlier in Silver Surfer #1(which had the same creative team)...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/misc/FM_1979_001_04-1.jpg

...and I think Surfer was actually acknowledging that the enchantment Odin bestowed upon the hammer which causes it to return to Thor's hand is greater than his energy output rather than acknowledging that Thor himself was more powerful. That's why he was suprised that he was suddenly able to keep Thor from his hammer.

TBH it makes no sense for Surfer to be acknowledging Thor himself as being more powerful right then. Not only was Surfer beating him decisively at that point, but Surfer didn't SEE any of the "mallet's magic" outside of it's ability to absorb energy blasts and it's return effect. He was dominant through out the fight and took only ONE hit(and that was to the bottom of his surfboard) throughout the entire encounter so how people see the logic of Surfer saying that Thor's more powerful is beyond me.

Originally posted by "Id"
I have Genis-Vell, higher then those 3. He is like a Higher Herald character. peaches



Ooh good one. Forgot about him. Seriously though, he needs to start making more appearances again.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I've come to the conclusion that Silver Surfer, Orion, and Thor are the true "high heralds" based on feats and opponents they have fought and or beaten. Everyone happy now?

I agree with that.

Originally posted by "Id"
I have Genis-Vell, higher then those 3. He is like a Higher Herald character. peaches

He was great, and imo well above Surfer (Could Surfer knock Lord Thor on his butt?) but I think he was watered down in Thunderbolts.

Still had his share of feats, but nothing like his solo series.

Originally posted by cdtm
He was great, and imo well above Surfer (Could Surfer knock Lord Thor on his butt?) but I think he was watered down in Thunderbolts.

Still had his share of feats, but nothing like his solo series.
They couldn't have him at full power in Thunderbolts or the rest of the team would have looked useless. The way he was depicted in his own comic, he could have solved all the team's problems with minimal effort.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I strongly disagree. Surfer DOES say "I have seen his mallet's magic! It truely is mightier than my cosmic force!" while he keeps Thor's hammer at bay with a force field...

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/combat/FM_1980_004_34.jpg

But on the page RIGHT before Surfer's statement...

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/combat/FM_1980_004_33.jpg

...we see Surfer try to keep Thor seperated from his hammer via energy blasts and during that period Surfer's blasts were sometimes called blasts of cosmic force. Here's an instance of one being referred to as such by Surfer three issue's earlier in Silver Surfer #1(which had the same creative team)...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/misc/FM_1979_001_04-1.jpg

...and I think Surfer was actually acknowledging that the enchantment Odin bestowed upon the hammer which causes it to return to Thor's hand is greater than his energy output rather than acknowledging that Thor himself was more powerful. That's why he was suprised that he was suddenly able to keep Thor from his hammer.

TBH it makes no sense for Surfer to be acknowledging Thor himself as being more powerful right then. Not only was Surfer beating him decisively at that point, but Surfer didn't SEE any of the "mallet's magic" outside of it's ability to absorb energy blasts and it's return effect. He was dominant through out the fight and took only ONE hit(and that was to the bottom of his surfboard) throughout the entire encounter so how people see the logic of Surfer saying that Thor's more powerful is beyond me.


the art in silver surfer #4 is amazing

Originally posted by darthgoober
I strongly disagree. Surfer DOES say "I have seen his mallet's magic! It truely is mightier than my cosmic force!" while he keeps Thor's hammer at bay with a force field...

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/combat/FM_1980_004_34.jpg

But on the page RIGHT before Surfer's statement...

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/combat/FM_1980_004_33.jpg

...we see Surfer try to keep Thor seperated from his hammer via energy blasts and during that period Surfer's blasts were sometimes called blasts of cosmic force. Here's an instance of one being referred to as such by Surfer three issue's earlier in Silver Surfer #1(which had the same creative team)...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/misc/FM_1979_001_04-1.jpg

...and I think Surfer was actually acknowledging that the enchantment Odin bestowed upon the hammer which causes it to return to Thor's hand is greater than his energy output rather than acknowledging that Thor himself was more powerful. That's why he was suprised that he was suddenly able to keep Thor from his hammer.

TBH it makes no sense for Surfer to be acknowledging Thor himself as being more powerful right then. Not only was Surfer beating him decisively at that point, but Surfer didn't SEE any of the "mallet's magic" outside of it's ability to absorb energy blasts and it's return effect. He was dominant through out the fight and took only ONE hit(and that was to the bottom of his surfboard) throughout the entire encounter so how people see the logic of Surfer saying that Thor's more powerful is beyond me.



Several things here:

The whole point of the story was that Loki's power added to Surfer's own might allow him to defeat Thor.

Surfer remarks that Mjolnir is far more formidable than he suspected when Thor absorbed his cosmic blasts into the Mjolnir.

Surfer states Asgard has power beyond compare and Thor is strongest of all.

Surfer went out of his way to try and separate Mjolnir from Thor's hand.

First time Surfer said his Power Cosmic could keep Mjolnir from Thor, Thor said "Nay." Surfer then remarks how he feels so strangely powerful.

Again they word play and Thor says "None but a God can unleash such power!" Then again, Surfer thinks to himself something is taking place 'behind the scenes'.

The scans you posted in which Mjolnir was knocked out of his hands the above wordplay was referenced again and Surfer essentially said "Mjolnir is truly greater than my Power Cosmic, so how is it I can keep him from touching it? Ah, its Loki's powers that were added to my own."

Arguing from denial that Surfer must have been talking about Odin's enchantment upon Mjolnir is faulty, as no where in the issue did Mjolnir not being able to return to his hand after being thrown take place.

The enchantment doesn't trigger if Mjolnir is knocked/dropped from his hand, which has happened numerous times throughout his career.

and

Saved me the trouble. I'm shocked that your arguing in favor of Thor though.

Really though Goob, it was made pretty clear that Surfer was inferior to Thor. I know your job is to champion Surfer but there's no way of spinning that fact without doing reaching. I mean seriously, the Cosmic Force/Mjolnir comment was clearly meant to indicate that Mjolnir was more powerful than Norrin himself.

No shame in admitting that Thor was beyond Surfer in this issue. This was Lee's Thor. Under him, Thor was incredibly powerful at times. Everything from punking Ego, to defeating Galactus to withstanding an assault from Odin was under his pen.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
and

Saved me the trouble. I'm shocked that your arguing in favor of Thor though.

Really though Goob, it was made pretty clear that Surfer was inferior to Thor. I know your job is to champion Surfer but there's no way of spinning that fact without doing reaching. I mean seriously, the Cosmic Force/Mjolnir comment was clearly meant to indicate that Mjolnir was more powerful than Norrin himself.

No shame in admitting that Thor was beyond Surfer in this issue. This was Lee's Thor. Under him, Thor was incredibly powerful at times. Everything from punking Ego, to defeating Galactus to withstanding an assault from Odin was under his pen.

You wound me.

Just because I agree that Superman beats Thor, it doesn't mean that I don't like Thor(otherwise I wouldn't have read all of his stuff) and won't argue for him.

-1 Rage.

Originally posted by Spire
You wound me.

Just because I agree that Superman beats Thor, it doesn't mean that I don't like Thor(otherwise I wouldn't have read all of his stuff) and won't argue for him.

-1 Rage.

I'm sorry.

+

One day, I'm going to sit down and read all of Superman's Post Crisis appearances. After I'm done, the amount of low balling I'll be able to do will make even your head reel.

Any decent herald level chap beats Orion, let alone Surfer.

Originally posted by Spire


Several things here:

The whole point of the story was that Loki's power added to Surfer's own might allow him to defeat Thor.

Surfer remarks that Mjolnir is far more formidable than he suspected when Thor absorbed his cosmic blasts into the Mjolnir.

Surfer states Asgard has power beyond compare and Thor is strongest of all.

Surfer went out of his way to try and separate Mjolnir from Thor's hand.

First time Surfer said his Power Cosmic could keep Mjolnir from Thor, Thor said "Nay." Surfer then remarks how he feels so strangely powerful.

Again they word play and Thor says "None but a God can unleash such power!" Then again, Surfer thinks to himself something is taking place 'behind the scenes'.

The scans you posted in which Mjolnir was knocked out of his hands the above wordplay was referenced again and Surfer essentially said "Mjolnir is truly greater than my Power Cosmic, so how is it I can keep him from touching it? Ah, its Loki's powers that were added to my own."

Arguing from denial that Surfer must have been talking about Odin's enchantment upon Mjolnir is faulty, as no where in the issue did Mjolnir not being able to return to his hand after being thrown take place.

The enchantment doesn't trigger if Mjolnir is knocked/dropped from his hand, which has happened numerous times throughout his career.
All that and you never actually address what I said. Did you happen to see Thor use any of his "mallet's magic" other than it's ability to absorb energy or it's return effect?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
and

Saved me the trouble. I'm shocked that your arguing in favor of Thor though.

Really though Goob, it was made pretty clear that Surfer was inferior to Thor. I know your job is to champion Surfer but there's no way of spinning that fact without doing reaching. I mean seriously, the Cosmic Force/Mjolnir comment was clearly meant to indicate that Mjolnir was more powerful than Norrin himself.

No shame in admitting that Thor was beyond Surfer in this issue. This was Lee's Thor. Under him, Thor was incredibly powerful at times. Everything from punking Ego, to defeating Galactus to withstanding an assault from Odin was under his pen.

Same question...

Originally posted by darthgoober
All that and you never actually address what I said. Did you happen to see Thor use any of his "mallet's magic" other than it's ability to absorb energy or it's return effect?

The Dog wins.

SS wins.

The new god

Wow, a lot of Orion respect.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I've come to the conclusion that Silver Surfer, Orion, and Thor are the true "high heralds" based on feats and opponents they have fought and or beaten. Everyone happy now? Don't get it twisted! THOR is a god!! Not some ones puppet herald.

Originally posted by BattleMage
Don't get it twisted! THOR is a god!! Not some ones puppet herald.
He's Odin's Herald. Especially back when his hammer had a terms of agreement deal with the one minute rule.

Originally posted by darthgoober
All that and you never actually address what I said. Did you happen to see Thor use any of his "mallet's magic" other than it's ability to absorb energy or it's return effect?



Same question...

Indeed.

Both these statements were totally not addressed at all.

Originally posted by darthgoober
...and I think Surfer was actually acknowledging that the enchantment Odin bestowed upon the hammer which causes it to return to Thor's hand

so how people see the logic of Surfer saying that Thor's more powerful is beyond me.

Originally posted by Spire
Indeed.

Both these statements were totally not addressed at all.
You're saying that Surfer was clearly acknowledging Thor as his supperior rather than acknowledging Odin's enchantmen, but unless you can point to an instance of his "mallet's magic" other than the return effect or absorption capabilities it's not clear in any way, shape, or form.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're saying that Surfer was clearly acknowledging Thor as his supperior rather than acknowledging Odin's enchantmen, but unless you can point to an instance of his "mallet's magic" other than the return effect or absorption capabilities it's not clear in any way, shape, or form.

Before I address your quan tactics(sidetracking), are you backing away from your previous comments? Yes or no?

Originally posted by Spire
Before I address your quan tactics(sidetracking), are you backing away from your previous comments? Yes or no?
Sidetracking? The magic of Thor's hammer is the basis for my original post, if anything I'm stearing you back on course because you said it was faulty logic without ever actually addressing it.

Which comments? That I think Surfer was talking about the return effect or about my failing to see the logic behind people thinking that Surfer was acknowledging Thor as his supperior? Huh uh, I meant both and still do.

surfer

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sidetracking? The magic of Thor's hammer is the basis for my original post, if anything I'm stearing you back on course because you said it was faulty logic without specifing why.

Which comments? That I think Surfer was talking about the return effect or about my failing to see the logic behind people thinking that Surfer was acknowledging Thor as his supperior? Huh uh, I meant both and still do.

Here is my dilemma: follow your sidetrack, so you can distance yourself from previous comments or explain how I responded to the ideas in your post(whether or not you agreed with them is beside the point) when you replied saying I didn't.

What do I do?!

Originally posted by Spire
Here is my dilemma: follow your sidetrack, so you can distance yourself from previous comments or explain how I responded to the ideas in your post(whether or not you agreed with them is beside the point) when you replied saying I didn't.

What do I do?!
You seem to be the one sidetracking...

Originally posted by darthgoober
You seem to be the one sidetracking...

Funny.

I only responded to you to point out that I did in fact tackle ideas directly stated your post.

You then hit back with this:

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're saying that Surfer was clearly acknowledging Thor as his supperior rather than acknowledging Odin's enchantmen, but unless you can point to an instance of his "mallet's magic" other than the return effect or absorption capabilities it's not clear in any way, shape, or form.

Originally posted by Spire
Funny.

I only responded to you to point out that I did in fact tackle ideas directly stated your post.

You then hit back with this:
Ah but you didn't. The stuff I said about failing to see the reasoning was attributed primarily to Surfer not seeing any other magic from Thor's hammer. So unless you addressed some magic from Thor's hammer other than it's energy absorbtion and return effect...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Ah but you didn't. The stuff I said about failing to see the reasoning was attributed primarily to Surfer not seeing any other magic from Thor's hammer. So unless you addressed some magic from Thor's hammer other than it's energy absorbtion and return effect...


facepalm Whatever.

Anyways, this is just a heads up, but this probably won't go back and forth for long. See, if you actually read my first post and applied some critical thinking you wouldn't be replying with the ridiculous stuff that you have been.

Let's get this started.

Surfer could have seen one of Mjolnir's powers, or all of them. It doesn't matter at all. Now, to answer your pointless question, Surfer also saw/knows Mjolnir can send him through a wall and can emit what seemed to be an AOE attack.

There is no reason to think that Surfer was talking about Odin's enchantment, because when he made the comment, Odin's enchantment--which he does not know about--wasn't in effect. No where at all in the book was Mjolnir not returning to his hand(Odin's enchantment) displayed.

Now, add that with the plot of the story(Surfer with Loki's power added to his own might be able to defeat Thor) and the numerous comments Surfer makes throughout the book, in addition to his tactic in attempting to remove Thor from his hammer--it becomes quite clear what Surfer meant.

In other words, reread my first post.

Originally posted by Spire
facepalm Whatever.

Anyways, this is just a heads up, but this probably won't go back and forth for long. See, if you actually read my first post and applied some critical thinking you wouldn't be replying with the ridiculous stuff that you have been.

Let's get this started.
Well I guess we'll see.

Originally posted by Spire
Surfer could have seen one of Mjolnir's powers, or all of them. It doesn't matter at all. Now, to answer your pointless question, Surfer also saw/knows Mjolnir can send him through a wall and can emit what seemed to be an AOE attack.
It does matter, because Surfer specifically says that he's seen the mallets magic and it's mightier than his cosmic force. So the magic he saw that was mighier than his cosmic force is particularly relevant. Knocking him threw a wall doesn't indicate that the hammers magic is greater than his cosmic force. Especially when he recovered in no time no worse for wear and controlled the fight. And what AOE attack are you talking about?

Originally posted by Spire
There is no reason to think that Surfer was talking about Odin's enchantment, because when he made the comment, Odin's enchantment--which he does not know about--wasn't in effect. No where at all in the book was Mjolnir not returning to his hand(Odin's enchantment) displayed.
Right so he saw that the hammer went back to his hand before and didn't know why(because he didn't know about Odin's enchantment), and then he was suddenly able to keep the hammer away and was puzzled by it... kinda supports my point more than yours. He was keeping the hammer away with a force field when he made the statement...

Originally posted by Spire
Now, add that with the plot of the story(Surfer with Loki's power added to his own might be able to defeat Thor) and the numerous comments Surfer makes throughout the book, in addition to his tactic in attempting to remove Thor from his hammer--it becomes quite clear what Surfer meant.
Except that none of the hammers enchantment had proven supperior to his cosmic force other than the Absorption and return capabilities. And it's illogical to think that Surfer would be acknowledging Thor as his supperior when he was winning throughout the fight and had Thor on the ground seperated from his hammer.

Originally posted by Spire
In other words, reread my first post.
I did, but it still doesn't address what I was saying.

Qustion. Could surfer march universal destroying energy with his own? Basically figthting fire with fire? Could he blow up a universe?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well I guess we'll see.


It does matter, because Surfer specifically says that he's seen the mallets magic and it's mightier than his cosmic force. So the magic he saw that was mighier than his cosmic force is particularly relevant. Knocking him threw a wall doesn't indicate that the hammers magic is greater than his cosmic force. Especially when he recovered in no time no worse for wear and controlled the fight. And what AOE attack are you talking about?

It doesn't matter. Oh and Mallet's Magic means he didn't get the hammer at Home Depot.

Originally posted by darthgoober

Right so he saw that the hammer went back to his hand before and didn't know why(because he didn't know about Odin's enchantment), and then he was suddenly able to keep the hammer away and was puzzled by it... kinda supports my point more than yours. He was keeping the hammer away with a force field when he made the statement...

Where did Surfer display this "didn't know why"?

It doesn't support your point AT ALL. You are trying to connect something which doesn't take place. No where at all did the Surfer try to prevent Mjolnir from returning to his hand. Also, he was amazed because he knew Mjolnir was greater than power cosmic and realized it was Loki's power.

Originally posted by darthgoober

Except that none of the hammers enchantment had proven supperior to his cosmic force other than the Absorption and return capabilities. And it's illogical to think that Surfer would be acknowledging Thor as his supperior when he was winning throughout the fight and had Thor on the ground seperated from his hammer.

It proved superior when it drawed in his power cosmic. It also was powerful enough to send him through a wall and powerful enough for Surfer to specifically try to remove Mjolnir from the fight. NO RETURN CAPABILITIES were mentioned in this fight at all.

In other words no where did Surfer go "Ruh Roh! I better try and keep Odin's enchantment--which I don't know about--from triggering Thor's hammer from Home Depot returning to him after it has been thrown!"

Originally posted by darthgoober

I did, but it still doesn't address what I was saying.

It does, as I can literally cut and paste and continue to stomp the same Nah Uh arguments that you are making.

Originally posted by Spire
It doesn't matter. Oh and Mallet's Magic means he didn't get the hammer at Home Depot.
So you don't think the context behind the statement matters?



Originally posted by Spire
Where did Surfer display this "didn't know why"?


Dude are you seriously arguing with yourself...

Originally posted by Spire
facepalm Whatever.

Anyways, this is just a heads up, but this probably won't go back and forth for long. See, if you actually read my first post and applied some critical thinking you wouldn't be replying with the ridiculous stuff that you have been.

Let's get this started.

Surfer could have seen one of Mjolnir's powers, or all of them. It doesn't matter at all. Now, to answer your pointless question, Surfer also saw/knows Mjolnir can send him through a wall and can emit what seemed to be an AOE attack.

There is no reason to think that Surfer was talking about Odin's enchantment, because when he made the comment, Odin's enchantment--which he does not know about--wasn't in effect. No where at all in the book was Mjolnir not returning to his hand(Odin's enchantment) displayed.

Now, add that with the plot of the story(Surfer with Loki's power added to his own might be able to defeat Thor) and the numerous comments Surfer makes throughout the book, in addition to his tactic in attempting to remove Thor from his hammer--it becomes quite clear what Surfer meant.

In other words, reread my first post.

Originally posted by Spire
It doesn't support your point AT ALL. You are trying to connect something which doesn't take place. No where at all did the Surfer try to prevent Mjolnir from returning to his hand. Also, he was amazed because he knew Mjolnir was greater than power cosmic and realized it was Loki's power.
HUH?! On the very page we're talking about when Thor's getting blasted he's talking about Surfer repeatedly blasting it from his hand whenever he raises it to strike. On the page before that(which I also posted earlier) Surfer's trying to keep it out of Thor's hand. I disagree, he was just suprised because he was suddenly able to keep Thor from his hammer.



Originally posted by Spire
It proved superior when it drawed in his power cosmic. It also was powerful enough to send him through a wall and powerful enough for Surfer to specifically try to remove Mjolnir from the fight. NO RETURN CAPABILITIES were mentioned in this fight at all.
So you think it makes sense to consider him more powerful than someone just because he can absorb their energy blasts? Do have any idea of the kind of crap Thor has absorbed?

Originally posted by Spire
In other words no where did Surfer go "Ruh Roh! I better try and keep Odin's enchantment--which I don't know about--from triggering Thor's hammer from Home Depot returning to him after it has been thrown!"
He tried multiple times to seperate Thor from his hammer.


Originally posted by Spire
It does, as I can literally cut and paste and continue to stomp the same Nah Uh arguments that you are making.
If it did, then where did you talk about other magic we saw from the hammer in your first post aimed at me?

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Qustion. Could surfer march universal destroying energy with his own? Basically figthting fire with fire? Could he blow up a universe?
Did he actually match enough energy to destroy a universe? I mean I thought he died pulling off the feat while the Godwave was still going...

Originally posted by lightyeargee
Qustion. Could surfer march universal destroying energy with his own? Basically figthting fire with fire? Could he blow up a universe? lol, is that what you think takion did?

that's one hell of a spin there

Originally posted by darthgoober
So you don't think the context behind the statement matters?

I do. I was even kind enough to spell it out for you.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Dude are you seriously arguing with yourself...

Where did Surfer say I don't know why his hammer is returning and wonder if there was an enchantment upon it? Where did he care about his hammer returning at all?

My response was directed at that...

Originally posted by darthgoober
HUH?! On the very page we're talking about when Thor's getting blasted he's talking about Surfer repeatedly blasting it from his hand whenever he raises it to strike. On the page before that(which I also posted earlier) Surfer's trying to keep it out of Thor's hand. I disagree, he was just suprised because he was suddenly able to keep Thor from his hammer.

Enchantment does not apply. Enchantment is of no relevance.

Originally posted by darthgoober
So you think it makes sense to consider him more powerful than someone just because he can absorb their energy blasts? Do have any idea of the kind of crap Thor has absorbed?

Were you crying when you wrote that?

Surfer's comment is consistent with with the plot of the story--Loki's powers added to Surfer's own might allow for Thor to be defeated. It's also consistent with the comments Surfer made through out the book, the tactics he chose to employ, and the wordplay they traded during the fight.

In other words, reread my first post.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He tried multiple times to seperate Thor from his hammer.

Enchantment does not apply. Enchantment is of no relevance.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If it did, then where did you talk about other magic we saw from the hammer in your first post aimed at me?

Not sure what you are getting at here. If you are talking about your Mjolnir and magic argument, then yes, I flat out ignored it because it is was probably the worst argument that you made in your post.

So to summarize, here is your position which you are still struggling desperately to support, let alone prove:

Originally posted by darthgoober
...and I think Surfer was actually acknowledging that the enchantment Odin bestowed upon the hammer which causes it to return to Thor's hand

Originally posted by darthgoober
Did he actually match enough energy to destroy a universe? I mean I thought he died pulling off the feat while the Godwave was still going... I am referring to Orion.

Originally posted by Spire
I do. I was even kind enough to spell it out for you.
Well if the context matter to you, why are you dismissing what I'm saying with "It doesn't matter"?

Originally posted by Spire
Where did Surfer say I don't know why his hammer is returning and wonder if there was an enchantment upon it? Where did he care about his hammer returning at all?

My response was directed at that...
So he has to use your exact words huh.... lol. I think him questioning why the hammer's now staying out of Thor's reach pretty concreately supports his not knowing why the hammer's staying out of Thor's reach now.

Originally posted by Spire
Enchantment does not apply. Enchantment is of no relevance.
What makes you say that? Surfer seeing the hammer return to Thor's hands seems pretty relevant to what I was saying...

Originally posted by Spire
Were you crying when you wrote that?

Surfer's comment is consistent with with the plot of the story--Loki's powers added to Surfer's own might allow for Thor to be defeated. It's also consistent with the comments Surfer made through out the book, the tactics he chose to employ, and the wordplay they traded during the fight.

In other words, reread my first post.
It takes far more than a faulty interpretation from someone like you to make me cry. See Surfer didn't say "Thor's more powerful becauser he can absorb my energy blasts" he said that he'd seen the hammers magic and it was stronger than his cosmic force. And unless you honestly think that Character A absorbing Character B's energy blasts is proof of character A being more powerful there's no logical reason to interpret the statement as you're suggesting.

Originally posted by Spire
Enchantment does not apply. Enchantment is of no relevance.
I disagree.

Originally posted by Spire
Not sure what you are getting at here. If you are talking about your Mjolnir and magic argument, then yes, I flat out ignored it because it is was probably the worst argument that you made in your post.
The magic demonstrated by Mjolnir IS relevant because the magic Surfer saw from Thor's hammer is the basis of the statement in question.

Originally posted by Spire
So to summarize, here is your position which you are still struggling desperately to support, let alone prove:
My position is supported plenty More than yours in fact since Surfer actually saw the enchantment that causes Thor's hammer to return to his hand in effect but saw nothing from Thor to indicate that Thor himself was more powerful.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well if the context matter to you, why are you dismissing what I'm saying with "It doesn't matter"?

I already told you why. Not sure if you missed what I typed or you just do not have the critical thinking abilities to understand what I typed.

Originally posted by darthgoober

So he has to use your exact words huh.... lol. I think him questioning why the hammer's now staying out of Thor's reach pretty concreately supports his not knowing why the hammer's staying out of Thor's reach now.

PLEASE REFERENCE INSTANCES/POST SCANS of where Surfer wondered if there was an enchantment, knew that there was an enchantment or even cared about/was concerned with Mjolnir returning to Thor's hand at all.


Originally posted by darthgoober

What makes you say that? Surfer seeing the hammer return to Thor's hands seems pretty relevant to what I was saying...

My reply above answers this. Also, YOUR response wasn't even relevant to what YOU were saying as this quote trail(click back and read) has to do with Surfer trying to prevent Thor from using Mjolnir against him. Stay on point.

Originally posted by darthgoober

It takes far more than a faulty interpretation from someone like you to make me cry. See Surfer didn't say "Thor's more powerful becauser he can absorb my energy blasts" he said that he'd seen the hammers magic and it was stronger than his cosmic force. And unless you honestly think that Character A absorbing Character B's energy blasts is proof of character A being more powerful there's no logical reason to interpret the statement as you're suggesting.

This is amazing. It was you that cried that 'character/someone/Thor can't be more powerful then character/someone/Surfer' when the issue was simply 'Mjolnir being greater than Power Cosmic'. This is like the fourth time you have brought that up by the way.

Originally posted by darthgoober

I disagree.

Expected.

Regardless, there is no enchantment upon Mjolnir dictating that it will return when/if Mjolnir gets knocked out of/dropped from Thor's hand.

Originally posted by darthgoober

The magic demonstrated by Mjolnir IS relevant because the magic Surfer saw from Thor's hammer is the basis of the statement in question.

Firstly, it is not relevant at all because the amount of abilites he witnessed Mjolnir display has NOTHING to do with the statement he made. Secondly, Surfer does not know about or even care about the 'magic' that you think he saw and was referencing. Nor was it in effect at the time.

Originally posted by darthgoober

My position is supported plenty More than yours in fact since Surfer actually saw the enchantment that causes Thor's hammer to return to his hand in effect but saw nothing from Thor to indicate that Thor himself was more powerful.

You can't even prove what is NEEDED(Surfer knows and cares about the enchantment) for you to MAKE(Surfer was referencing the enchantment) your argument in the first place. He didn't 'SEE' anything. They were fighting, Thor threw the hammer and it returned. End of. Surfer was never shown wondering why it happened. Surfer was never shown caring about it at all actually. Furthermore, Thor simply punches the force field a page later and easily retrieves his hammer. How can this be if Surfer was talking about the enchantment?

Also, for the 'Thor more powerful than Surfer' again.

Surfer wins

/Thread

Originally posted by Spire
I already told you why. Not sure if you missed what I typed or you just do not have the critical thinking abilities to understand what I typed.
Or you're still dodging...



Originally posted by Spire
PLEASE REFERENCE INSTANCES/POST SCANS of where Surfer wondered if there was an enchantment, knew that there was an enchantment or even cared about/was concerned with Mjolnir returning to Thor's hand at all.
I already have, he was concerned when he questioned why he could keep it away. He may not have known the specifics of Odin's enchantments, but he knew it was a magic hammer that returns to Thor and that he couldn't keep the two seperated earlier in the fight.



Originally posted by Spire
My reply above answers this. Also, YOUR response wasn't even relevant to what YOU were saying as this quote trail(click back and read) has to do with Surfer trying to prevent Thor from using Mjolnir against him. Stay on point.
And my statementg above answers yours.



Originally posted by Spire
This is amazing. It was you that cried that 'character/someone/Thor can't be more powerful then character/someone/Surfer' when the issue was simply 'Mjolnir being greater than Power Cosmic'. This is like the fourth time you have brought that up by the way.
Huh? I didn't say that Thor couldn't be more powerful than Surfer, I said that Surfer never said he was. And it's still relevant a relevant point, assuming that the ability to absorb an energy blast is a direct indication that one character's more powerful than another is rediculous.



Originally posted by Spire
Expected.

Regardless, there is no enchantment upon Mjolnir dictating that it will return when/if Mjolnir gets knocked out of/dropped from Thor's hand.
But Surfer doesn't know that does he? All he knows is that the hammer returns to Thor's hand and he couldn't keep it away early in the fight but could later.



Originally posted by Spire
Firstly, it is not relevant at all because the amount of abilites he witnessed Mjolnir display has NOTHING to do with the statement he made. Secondly, Surfer does not know about or even care about the 'magic' that you think he saw and was referencing. Nor was it in effect at the time.
The abilities he witnessed from Mjolnir have EVERYTHING to do with the statement he made because Surfer specifically talks about seeing the hammers magic, so the magic he saw is particularly relevant.


Originally posted by Spire
You can't even prove what is NEEDED(Surfer knows and cares about the enchantment) for you to MAKE(Surfer was referencing the enchantment) your argument in the first place. He didn't 'SEE' anything. They were fighting, Thor threw the hammer and it returned. End of. Surfer was never shown wondering why it happened. Surfer was never shown caring about it at all actually. Furthermore, Thor simply punches the force field a page later and easily retrieves his hammer. How can this be if Surfer was talking about the enchantment?

Also, for the 'Thor more powerful than Surfer' again.
Why should he wonder why a magic hammer's returning to it's owners hand?

Also, your overall thinking is a bit off on the matter. See I don't need to prove the exact reasoning behind Surfer's statement anymore than a fan of Thor's does because we're just talking about the matter of interpretating Surfer's statement. My point has never been that the issue CAN'T be interpreted differently, it's that I see interpreting Surfer's statement to be an admission that Thor's more powerful to be illogical because because the fight itself doesn't support the notion.

At this point, Orion is bored to tears, and Thor is wondering why he keeps ending up in other peoples fights...

He's to Killermovies like Wolverine was to comic book covers...

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm still dodging...

Yes, you are. All you have to do is simply click the link in the quote and read back. No excuse really.

Spire's Free Internet Pro Tip: Simply follow this quote trial back six times and you will have your answer!

Originally posted by darthgoober

I already have, he was concerned when he questioned why he could keep it away. He may not have known the specifics of Odin's enchantments, but he knew it was a magic hammer that returns to Thor and that he couldn't keep the two seperated earlier in the fight.

And my statementg above answers yours.

It 'appears' you are not keen enough to understand what it was that I asked for. Truly, this is ridiculous and I should not have to(I honestly believe that you know that the arguments you have made purely out of denial are indeed foolish, unsupported by the book and are simply playing dumb in an attempt to avoid coming to terms with the obvious) point this out but I will do so anyways:

I asked you to reference instances/post scans before Surfer's supposed "he was concerned when he questioned why he could keep it away."

Again:

PLEASE REFERENCE INSTANCES/POST SCANS of where Surfer wondered if there was an enchantment, knew that there was an enchantment or even cared about/was concerned with Mjolnir returning to Thor's hand at all.


Originally posted by darthgoober

Huh? I didn't say that Thor couldn't be more powerful than Surfer, I said that Surfer never said he was. And it's still relevant a relevant point, assuming that the ability to absorb an energy blast is a direct indication that one character's more powerful than another is rediculous.

That went right over your head. I was pointing out that:

A.) It is not about 'character being more powerful than character'. Stop talking about it.

B.) It is about Surfer's statement regarding Mjolnir.

C.) Your post wasn't on point.

Originally posted by darthgoober

But Surfer doesn't know that does he?

BINGO!

Originally posted by darthgoober
All he knows is that the hammer returns to Thor's hand

He doesn't know how it is accomplished. It could return because of any number of reasons.

Originally posted by darthgoober
and he couldn't keep it away early in the fight but could later.

Misinterpretation.

A.) The enchantment DID NOT trigger

B.) Surfer never tried to 'keep it away--as in override the enchantment', he only tried to prevent Thor from using it against him.

Originally posted by darthgoober

The abilities he witnessed from Mjolnir have EVERYTHING to do with the statement he made because Surfer specifically talks about seeing the hammers magic, so the magic he saw is particularly relevant.

facepalm

It has nothing to do with his statement as he could witness one of Mjolnir's abilities and it can still be more powerful than his power cosmic.

It has nothing to do with his statement as he could witness two of Mjolnir's abilities and it can still be more powerful than his power cosmic.

It has nothing to do with his statement as he could witness three of Mjolnir's abilities and it can still be more powerful than his power cosmic.

It has nothing to do with his statement as he could witness see all of Mjolnir's abilities and it can still be more powerful than his power cosmic.

Lastly, Mjolnir IS MAGIC.

Originally posted by darthgoober

Why should he wonder why a magic hammer's returning to it's owners hand?

So that your argument does not fall apart in the earliest stages.

Pretty simple.

Originally posted by darthgoober

Also, your overall thinking is a bit off on the matter. See I don't need to prove the exact reasoning behind Surfer's statement anymore than a fan of Thor's does because we're just talking about the matter of interpretating Surfer's statement. My point has never been that the issue CAN'T be interpreted differently, it's that I see interpreting Surfer's statement to be an admission that Thor's more powerful to be illogical because because the fight itself doesn't support the notion.

3 Things: Irony, you CAN'T prove your position and playing the 'Nah Uh' I don't need to does not change that, and please stop with the underlined part.

Originally posted by Spire
Yes, you are. All you have to do is simply click the link in the quote and read back. No excuse really.

Spire's Free Internet Pro Tip: Simply follow this quote trial back six times and you will have your answer!
Wow quote changing to cover up... there's a sign of a debater in trouble.

Originally posted by Spire
It 'appears' you are not keen enough to understand what it was that I asked for. Truly, this is ridiculous and I should not have to(I honestly believe that you know that the arguments you have made purely out of denial are indeed foolish, unsupported by the book and are simply playing dumb in an attempt to avoid coming to terms with the obvious) point this out but I will do so anyways:

I asked you to reference instances/post scans before Surfer's supposed "he was concerned when he questioned why he could keep it away."

Again:

PLEASE REFERENCE INSTANCES/POST SCANS of where Surfer wondered if there was an enchantment, knew that there was an enchantment or even cared about/was concerned with Mjolnir returning to Thor's hand at all.

I already did reference a scan where Surfer's concenred with Mjolnir returning to Thor's hand, the scan where he questions why it's now staying away.


Originally posted by Spire
That went right over your head. I was pointing out that:

A.) It is not about 'character being more powerful than character'. Stop talking about it.

B.) It is about Surfer's statement regarding Mjolnir.

C.) Your post wasn't on point.

This discussion IS about character being more powerful than character though because you're insisting that Surfer's statement was meant to indicate that Thor was more powerful than he. And since you said that Thor's hammer absorbing Surfer's blast was an indication that Thor was more powerful, so the rest is also on point.



Originally posted by Spire
BINGO!
Right, Surfer doesn't know the details of the hammers enchantment. But he knows that it's a magic hammer that returns to Thor's hand and that he was unable to keep them seperated early in the fight.



Originally posted by Spire
He doesn't know how it is accomplished. It could return because of any number of reasons.
Yeah like being magic. The fact that you can't put 2 and 2 together to make 4 doesn't mean that Surfer's too stupid to figure out why a magic hammer's returning to it's owners hand.



Originally posted by Spire
Misinterpretation.

A.) The enchantment DID NOT trigger

B.) Surfer never tried to 'keep it away--as in override the enchantment', he only tried to prevent Thor from using it against him.
It was returning to Thor's hand(but hadn't quite gotten there) when Surfer started blasting it, so yeah... you're wrong.


Originally posted by Spire
facepalm

It has nothing to do with his statement as he could witness one of Mjolnir's abilities and it can still be more powerful than his power cosmic.

It has nothing to do with his statement as he could witness two of Mjolnir's abilities and it can still be more powerful than his power cosmic.

It has nothing to do with his statement as he could witness three of Mjolnir's abilities and it can still be more powerful than his power cosmic.

It has nothing to do with his statement as he could witness see all of Mjolnir's abilities and it can still be more powerful than his power cosmic.

Lastly, Mjolnir IS MAGIC.
It has everything to do with his statement because it was a two part statement. You're wanting to ignore the first part of the statement so you can misinterpret the rest.



Originally posted by Spire
So that your argument does not fall apart in the earliest stages.

Pretty simple.
lol

Originally posted by Spire
3 Things: Irony, you CAN'T prove your position and playing the 'Nah Uh' I don't need to does not change that, and please stop with the underlined part.

Ok you need to study up on debating until you learn the in's and out's of the burden of proof because again, we're talking about a matter of interpretation. You have yours, I have mine... the difference is that Surfer actually saw the return effect on Thor's hammer in the fight, he never saw anything to support Thor being more powerful so yours falls short in regards to which is the more logical interpretation.

And why should I stop with the underlined part again?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wow quote changing to cover up... there's a sign of a debater in trouble.

Lol. Apparently clicking the left mouse button six times is too difficult for you. Distracting is a sign of a poster in trouble.

Originally posted by darthgoober

I already did reference a scan where Surfer's concenred with Mjolnir returning to Thor's hand, the scan where he questions why it's now staying away.

Your concession is noted.

Originally posted by darthgoober

This discussion IS about character being more powerful than character though because you're insisting that Surfer's statement was meant to indicate that Thor was more powerful than he. And since you said that Thor's hammer absorbing Surfer's blast was an indication that Thor was more powerful, so the rest is also on point.

Your reading comprehension skills are horrible. Following this quote trail back(something that is too difficult for you) will reveal how I never stated any of that and how NUMEROUS TIMES you tried to interject this 'character more powerful than character' stuff.

Couldn't be simpler.



Originally posted by darthgoober

Right, Surfer doesn't know the details of the hammers enchantment. But he knows that it's a magic hammer that returns to Thor's hand and that he was unable to keep them seperated early in the fight.

Surfer doesn't know ANY DETAILS at all. Also, he never attempted to keep them separated--as Odin's Enchantment(which he does not know about)-- never triggered. Incredibly simple stuff.

Originally posted by darthgoober

Yeah like being magic. The fact that you can't put 2 and 2 together to make 4 doesn't mean that Surfer's too stupid to figure out why a magic hammer's returning to it's owners hand.

He doesn't KNOW that there is an enchantment upon Mjolnir. Nor did he ever try to discern if indeed there was one at all.

Originally posted by darthgoober

It was returning to Thor's hand(but hadn't quite gotten there) when Surfer started blasting it, so yeah... you're wrong.

Never did he try to keep Mjolnir from returning(Odin's enchantment which he does not know about) to his hand. He was trying to knock it from his hands as stated here:

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/th_SS4.jpg

Otherwise, he would have simply just placed a force field over it right then and there.

facepalm

Originally posted by darthgoober

It has everything to do with his statement because it was a two part statement. You're wanting to ignore the first part of the statement so you can misinterpret the rest.

It has nothing to do with the statement... for the obvious reasons you quoted, but did not understand/outright dodged.

Originally posted by darthgoober

lol

More concession.

Originally posted by darthgoober

Ok you need to study up on debating until you learn the in's and out's of the burden of proof because again, we're talking about a matter of interpretation. You have yours, I have mine... the difference is that Surfer actually saw the return effect on Thor's hammer in the fight, he never saw anything to support Thor being more powerful so yours falls short in regards to which is the more logical interpretation.

And why should I stop with the underlined part again?

I'm going to baby-step this for you because you are owning yourself pretty hard:

Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok you need to study up on debating

I understand debating quite well. If I didn't, I wouldn't have laughed out loud when I saw you play the 'interpretation card'. I also thought your dodges were mildly humorous. Kudos.

Originally posted by darthgoober
until you learn the in's and out's of the burden of proof because again, we're talking about a matter of interpretation. You have yours, I have mine... the difference is that Surfer actually saw the return effect(your attempt at disguising Odin's enchantment) on Thor's hammer in the fight,

If you are going to state that as 'proof(Something, apparently, you don't have to do)' so that you can play your 'interpretation card' in the first place, you are going to have to prove it. This is exactly what I've asked you to do.

Originally posted by darthgoober
he never saw anything to support Thor being more powerful so yours falls short in regards to which is the more logical interpretation.


And why should I stop with the underlined part again?

Again--and hopefully this time it will sink in-- it is about a hammer and a statement, not an Asgardian and a Herald of Galactus.

Simple stuff.

Originally posted by Spire
Lol. Apparently clicking the left mouse button six times is too difficult for you. Distracting is a sign of a poster in trouble.
There's no need for me to, I know how this thing started.

Originally posted by Spire
Your concession is noted.
No concession an answer. You asked for an instance of Surfer showing concern about Thor's hammer returning to his hand, I gave you one.

Originally posted by Spire
Your reading comprehension skills are horrible. Following this quote trail back(something that is too difficult for you) will reveal how I never stated any of that and how NUMEROUS TIMES you tried to interject this 'character more powerful than character' stuff.

Couldn't be simpler.


So you didn't say that Thor's hammer absorbing Surfer's blast proved it to be supperior?


Originally posted by Spire
Surfer doesn't know ANY DETAILS at all. Also, he never attempted to keep them separated--as Odin's Enchantment(which he does not know about)-- never triggered. Incredibly simple stuff.
Except tht it's a magic hammer that returns to Thor's hand. Sure he did, on the very page where he makes the statement and on the page before.



Originally posted by Spire
He doesn't KNOW that there is an enchantment upon Mjolnir. Nor did he ever try to discern if indeed there was one at all.
He knows it's magic, it'd be common sense that it was enchanted after seeing it return to his hand.



Originally posted by Spire
Never did he try to keep Mjolnir from returning(Odin's enchantment which he does not know about) to his hand. He was trying to knock it from his hands as stated here:

http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt112/Spire84/th_SS4.jpg

Otherwise, he would have simply just placed a force field over it right then and there.

facepalm

First he wasn't TRYING to knock it from Thor's hand, he was succeding but Thor was getting it back. That's why Thor says that everytime he raises it Surfer blasts it from his hand. He was blasting it away, it was just returning.

And on the page before he tries to blast it away from Thor when it's returning to Thor after throwing it(but before Thor actually has it).



Originally posted by Spire
It has nothing to do with the statement... for the obvious reasons you quoted, but did not understand/outright dodged.
It's a two part statement, it DOES have to do with it.



Originally posted by Spire
More concession.
Again, no concession. Just laughing at you thinking that someone who knew Thor had a magic hammer that returned to his hand wouldn't piece together that it was enchanted to do so.



Originally posted by Spire
I'm going to baby-step this for you because you are owning yourself pretty hard:
Oh you wish...





Originally posted by Spire
I understand debating quite well. If I didn't, I wouldn't have laughed out loud when I saw you play the 'interpretation card'. I also thought your dodges were mildly humorous. Kudos.
You may think you understand it, but you need to brush up on the section regarding the burden of proof.



Originally posted by Spire
If you are going to state that as 'proof(Something, apparently, you don't have to do)' so that you can play your 'interpretation card' in the first place, you are going to have to prove it. This is exactly what I've asked you to do.
I have proven it. He saw the return effect when the hammer returned to his hand. Him seeing it in action pretty much proves he knew knew about it afterwards.


Originally posted by Spire
Again--and hopefully this time it will sink in-- it is about a hammer and a statement, not an Asgardian and a Herald of Galactus.

Simple stuff.
A statement saying that the hammer's magic is more powerful than Surfer's cosmic force, not one saying that Thor is more powerful(which is what I've been arguing this whole time and what my origianl post was about).

Guys, you're killing Thor!

Even a god needs rest from vs once in awhile.