Captain America vs Batgirl

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chomperx9
Captain America Rogers

vs

Batgirl Cassandra


1st fight shield and weapons
2nd fight no shield no weapons

iceman24567
Probably Capt a couple well placed shield hits goodnight *****

namorsubby
Cap probably. I'm sure the shiled will provide some sort of advantage, but h2h, Cassie has the advantage.

iceman24567
Capt could probably take her on h2h by overpowering her but shes been fighting grow men since she was like 7 erm. If its Bucky she probably takes a majority. Steve beats her

marwash22
Martial arts-wise, they're pretty much equals, correct? Steve is stronger and quicker so I'd give it to him.

namorsubby
Originally posted by iceman24567
Capt could probably take her on h2h by overpowering her but shes been fighting grow men since she was like 7 erm. If its Bucky she probably takes a majority. Steve beats her That's exactly what I was thinking too as for h2h, but really, in comics, things like that don't usually come into play.

Like when I see Bruce fighting Shiva or Cassie etc, I'm thinking he should have an edge because he persumably should be able to physically overpower them or at least hit much harder.

Originally posted by marwash22
Martial arts-wise, they're pretty much equals, correct? Steve is stronger and quicker so I'd give it to him.
I honestly don't think Cap is Cassie's martial art equal. She's pretty much flawless. Slade himself has said the only way to beat her in h2h in to get her emotions involved.

vansonbee
Originally posted by chomperx9
Captain America Rogers

vs

Batgirl Cassandra


1st fight shield and weapons
2nd fight no shield no weapons
Cap take the first fight.

Majority toward Cassandra for H2h

Konton
She's got some degree of enhanced speed and agility, as stated on panel. I'd also give her the edge in H2H. He wins with his shield, loses without.

Q99
Capt with shield, Cass without.

srankmissingnin
Cap has said he is more skilled than Iron Fist and Zaran (and possibly Batroc) said he was more skilled than Shang-Chi. Even in pure h2h Steve has every advantage. Speed, strength and yes, even skill.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Q99
Capt with shield, Cass without.

I'll go with that.

Juk3n
Cap with shield handily.
Cap without he' still faster/stronger and has fought masters in various forms in his own verse. What exactly is Cassy bringing to the table that say...Taskmaster hasn't already? Cap has the experience and - though it would be quite hard fought. He wins h2h. Especially if he's geared mentally as per kmc battle rules , so he knows she's a bullet dodger who reads moves, and she knows he's like Marvels Deathstroke stick out tongue. Physchological edge ftw!

Q99
Originally posted by Juk3n
What exactly is Cassy bringing to the table that say...Taskmaster hasn't already?

The ability to tell a move is going to happen before it does (as well as the emotions and so on of the other person), and a much smaller dodgier body.

I'm pretty sure in speed feats she does better too. The movements she pulls are literally described as mentally impossible for normal humans, her brain chemistry and development is modified to do normally impossible stuff.


It's as a result of unusual upbringing, but the end product is clear, her brain has superhuman capabilities in the field of martial arts.

Deadline
This is a joke. Cap doesn't need his stinking shield.

Juk3n
Originally posted by Q99
The movements she pulls are literally described as mentally impossible for normal humans,

Lucky for Steve then, he isnt normal. stick out tongue

Konton
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap has said he is more skilled than Iron Fist and Zaran (and possibly Batroc) said he was more skilled than Shang-Chi.

Batman has labeled her the most skilled martial artist alive.

Hank_Henshaw
I'll give the edge to Cap in the first fight, but he's not on the same level as Cassie in H2H

Deadline
Originally posted by Konton
Batman has labeled her the most skilled martial artist alive.

Good thing she ain't from Marvel.

Originally posted by Hank_Henshaw
I'll give the edge to Cap in the first fight, but he's not on the same level as Cassie in H2H

He may well be.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Konton
Batman has labeled her the most skilled martial artist alive.

Pretty sure he hasn't.

Cap is considered the greatest living martial artist on earth by his peers, he has explicitly stated he is a master of every known form of combat and he is even considered more skilled than than a handful of people who are also more skilled than Batgirl. Marvel's ocean of street level martial arts talent is much deeper than DCs. People like to pretend than Batman = Captain America to indulge their fanboy fantasies but that simply isn't the case. Captain America is more skilled than Shang-Chi... and Shang-Chi would easily be the most skilled street in the DC U if he was transfered over. Do the math.

iceman24567
What?

Deadline
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Pretty sure he hasn't.

Cap is considered the greatest living martial artist on earth by his peers, he has explicitly stated he is a master of every known form of combat and he is even considered more skilled than than a handful of people who are also more skilled than Batgirl. Marvel's ocean of street level martial arts talent is much deeper than DCs. People like to pretend than Batman = Captain America to indulge their fanboy fantasies but that simply isn't the case. Captain America is more skilled than Shang-Chi... and Shang-Chi would easily be the most skilled street in the DC U if he was transfered over. Do the math.

I think you're going overboard here. No I think you're wrong.

iceman24567
thumb up

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Deadline
I think you're going overboard here. No I think you're wrong.

I don't think so.

You can easily draw several parallels between characters who are very similar in both their physical attributes as well as their relative skill level in Marvel and DC (Daredevil = Batman, Shang-Chi = Dragon ect). I mean Shang-Chi is virtually a perfect analog of Richard Dragon, his early Master of Kung-Fu and Deadly Hands showings virtually mirror Dragon's own feats (Shang's more recent feats are much, much, much more impressive, but go with it anyway), but unlike Richard Dragon, who is at the top of the heap in the DC hierarchy, Shang-Chi is somewhere closer to the middle of Marvels Top 10. Marvel has several MA's who are above the level where DC's cap out.

Juk3n
Originally posted by Hank_Henshaw
but he's not on the same level as Cassie in H2H

Prove this.

Q99
Originally posted by Juk3n
Lucky for Steve then, he isnt normal. stick out tongue


Yea, but he's never had his brain re-wired and he doesn't have that body language reading ability.


Cass has mental abilities he doesn't, plain and simple.





In the 70s.

In terms of feats, Cassandra definitely has higher than him.

Deadline
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, but he's never had his brain re-wired and he doesn't have that body language reading ability.


Cass has mental abilities he doesn't, plain and simple.



Um SSS? Enhanced intelligence? Mastered an alien martial art in one day?

WRONG!!

BUSTER1
Originally posted by Konton
Batman has labeled her the most skilled martial artist alive.

Bats would have meant the best best MA alive in the DC universe. Outside of non canon crossovers, he hasn't met Steve-who is on par with Cassie in speed and h2h skill while stronger, more durable and with greater stamina.
Cap takes Batgirl in both scenarios. Not easily, but I can't see him losing.

Q99
Originally posted by Deadline
Um SSS? Enhanced intelligence? Mastered an alien martial art in one day?

WRONG!!

Yea, those are different mental abilities than hers, body language reading and mentally impossible focus on multiple moves at once isn't on that list.

And Cassandra has master martial arts in minutes.

Deadline
Originally posted by Q99
Yea, those are different mental abilities than hers, body language reading and mentally impossible focus on multiple moves at once isn't on that list.

Oh I see. Cap doesn't have the same abilities that she does so that automatically makes him inferior? No it doesnt. Actually he most likely can do that as well since even in the real world they teach you that shit.

Originally posted by Q99

And Cassandra has master martial arts in minutes.

Um alien martial art > earth based one

srankmissingnin
She can't accurately read Slade's movement, and she'd be pretty much in the exact same boat with Captain America as his physiology and metabolism - like Slade's - are similarly enhanced by the SSS.

And honestly her "mentally impossible focus on multiple moves at once" is just an ability to multi-task a large number of actions all at once without diminishing returns. It isn't really something mutually exclusive to her, virtually all streets are on similar platue. Captain America for instance preforms Olympic gold metal worthy acrobatic feats while throwing his shield like it was shot of a canon with pinpoint accuracy... while he calculates crazy trajectories so that it ricochets exactly where he wants it to and then comes back to him in the end.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Deadline
Um alien martial art > earth based one

Not necessarily in terms of effectiveness and lethality but in terms of which would be more difficult to learn you are 100% right. Many earth based martial arts share a common ancestry across certain disciplines and having learned a one style you would already have the building blocks in place to make learning another much easier. An alien martial art would theoretically be a completely foreign discipline with its own inherent rules and philosophies that would have nothing in common with the styles of earth.

Learning Spanish is going to be easy if you already know French... but Speaking French isn't going to help you at all to learn Klingon.

marvelmadness13
Cap takes both rather easily.

Q99
Originally posted by Deadline
Oh I see. Cap doesn't have the same abilities that she does so that automatically makes him inferior? No it doesnt.

It does make the abilities different. Now, does she have his tactical ability that's boosted by the SSS like his does? No.

Does his have all of the advantages hers gives? Also no.

They're different abilities that give different advantages, and some of those advantages are more martial arts oriented than the ones his does.



Not to the same level, in practice her stuff functions like a combination of pre-cog and telepathy.

That's the thing, her brain being wired differently gives her body language reading at a level significantly in excess of people like Batman.

It's taking something top-level comic martial artists do, then cranking it up to 13 above that by dedicating an entire different section of her brain to it.


And part of this is her brain can do normally impossible levels of multi-tasking when doing martial arts too. Again, normally impossible even for top-level comic martial artists.




She has taskmaster's ability as a side effect of her other advantages.




The same Slade that has never won a fight against her? While armed?

It's harder to read him, but she manages to do well enough to not be defeated by him in any of their fights.


Also I'll point out Slade's and CA's powers aren't exactly the same, he has his entirely different brain thing (different from either of these two others) too which may be part of the issue, but in any case, it's never gotten him so much as a single win even with sword, gun, and so on.

King Castle
steve eats her alive.

cassy rips bucky arm off most of the time..

also DD has a hard time reading cap's body physiology due to the SSS.. cass would have same problem due to his speed reflex and mental kinetics

Hank_Henshaw
Originally posted by Juk3n
Prove this.

The fact that she can wound Batman before he can even blink, make Slade look silly in H2H, and defeat her mother (who's arguably the 2nd or 3rd best fighter in the DCU). Cap doesn't even have any pressure-point feats and Daredevil has even owned him in H2H before.

King Castle
when did she wound bats b4 he could blink? only time i remember anything close to that was when bats sparred with her and told her she was out of shape as he coughed blood from the minor training session..

Hank_Henshaw
Originally posted by King Castle
when did she wound bats b4 he could blink? only time i remember anything close to that was when bats sparred with her and told her she was out of shape as he coughed blood from the minor training session..
You're right, my bad, that was the one feat from the three I listed that came from a comic I didn't read.

Hank_Henshaw
Seriously, someone's going to have to prove that Cap's on par with her in H2H, and it can't be with that statement he made in the Silver-Age regarding him being adept at every form of martial arts.

Konton
Let's not compare DD's ability to read physiology to Cassie's body reading. Nowhere near the same.

Hank_Henshaw
Originally posted by Konton
Let's not compare DD's ability to read physiology to Cassie's body reading. Nowhere near the same.
I never did, just pointing out the fact that Cap has lost to him before.

King Castle
yeah, one is lots better.. from seeing x-ray like style seeing the muscles contract and prepare to move as well as hearing the noise blood pumping slight weight shift.. DD's is far superior in every way and he couldnt keep up with cap.

Hank_Henshaw
Besides Cypher, I honestly haven't seen anyone from Marvel display a similar form of bodily-reactions.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Hank_Henshaw
I never did, just pointing out the fact that Cap has lost to him before.

The only time Cap has come anywhere close to losing to DD is when DD got the drop several Avengers in the dark and then booked it. Other than possibly their fight in DOA, Cap has had a solid advantage every time they've fought.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle
yeah, one is lots better.. from seeing x-ray like style seeing the muscles contract and prepare to move as well as hearing the noise blood pumping slight weight shift.. DD's is far superior in every way and he couldnt keep up with cap.

No, they work different, DD's is senses and Cass's is a mental power, and in terms of 'telling what's going to happen next' Cassandra's has better feats I believe.

Like HH said, Cypher's power is about the only similar one in Marvel.


---
What I'm getting is a solid impression from several people that "If we don't count Cassandra's signature advantages, Capt stomps."

Which is a 'duh' thing, but isn't exactly a helpful conclusion. Playing down one character's powers significantly isn't so much arguing Cass.

Hank_Henshaw
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only time Cap has come anywhere close to losing to DD is when DD got the drop several Avengers in the dark and then booked it. Other than possibly their fight in DOA, Cap has had a solid advantage every time they've fought.
IIRC They've fought 3-4 times, and, yeah, I was referring to the one where DD took out everyone in the room except for Natasha. That was one of their two fights where brainwashing was in effect, and I can understand why you wouldn't consider that one win valid, although an argument could be made for DOA.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Hank_Henshaw
Besides Cypher, I honestly haven't seen anyone from Marvel display a similar form of bodily-reactions.

Daredevil does.

Elektra was stated as having the ability one time, in a single panel description of her abilities, but has largely been ignored subsequently as she is a telepathy and that pretty much trumps body reading.

Wolverine's instinctively reads subliminal cues in body language and muscle movement, but he has trained to ignore it since it was setting off his B-Rage, as he was reading threats and insults in peoples mannerisms that they weren't even consciously aware they were making.

King Castle
the good ole days when he was very anti social and couldnt stand being around humans... always angry at his team for saying one thing but projecting other things like fear, loathing and dislike.

The MISTER
Cap with shield and without..... DC's martial artists are all over-hyped and would have troubles beating the White tiger but can hang with Superman by using a little kryptonite. Martial artists with equalizers is what Batman and his kin are. Cap has superhuman martial arts abilities in Marvel and has far more durability thanks to his enhancements.

Batgirl is missing the equalizer she would usually have.

iceman24567
All I see is Marvel martial artists being hyped in this very thread.

Juk3n
Originally posted by iceman24567
All I see is Marvel martial artists being hyped in this very thread.

It's not hype when talking about Marvels MA Heirachy though, they're just on another level. Barring KK stick out tongue

iceman24567
So Marvels Ma dial goes to 11? smile not buying it just yet

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by iceman24567
So Marvels Ma dial goes to 11? smile not buying it just yet

Marvel has a much more varied and numerous amount of active street level martial artists. It's a statistical improbability that the best of each world would be equal.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Juk3n
It's not hype when talking about Marvels MA Heirachy though, they're just on another level. Barring KK stick out tongue

I never understood this, honestly. How are they on another level?

King Castle
its a lil known fact on average the MU MA'ers have more higher end feats overall then DC.

if you need actual reference look at IF, shang, Ogun, Stick, Elektra, mandarin

Prep-Man
I'm talking about hth skills. Not various powers. DC has 3 Karate Kids that would school all of those above. Not to mention a Jin Si a Judomaster that cannot be hit because of her own will power.

iceman24567
Come on everybody you listed has some sort of superhuman ability erm

BattleMage
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I never understood this, honestly. How are they on another level? IDK they just are.

BattleMage
Oh and Cap takes this in both scenarios

iceman24567
^ Not a answer to his question no expression

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by iceman24567
Come on everybody you listed has some sort of superhuman ability erm

Superhuman powers all derived - with the exception of Iron Fist - solely through training. Their abilities are an extension of martial skill and discipline.

Prep-Man
Let's also add in a White Canary (her blades can cut fricken Hawk) and Black Canary's voice.

King Castle
lets look at it like this how many Ma'ers do you know can fist a bullet out of the air ala IF style with no batsuit or armor...

or can take a 100+ tonner punch block it and redistribute the force through ones body?

these are high end feats

srankmissingnin
Black Canary's cry has nothing to do with skill, she got it inexplicably from traveling back and forth from Earth 2.

iceman24567
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Superhuman powers all derived - with the exception of Iron Fist - solely through training. Their abilities are an extension of martial skill and discipline. Thats nice but its also Marvel putting a twist on their martial artists Im talking about straight h2h ability I see you aren't though. I see no definite edge in the MA department between the two company as far a pure skill is concerned.

Prep-Man
PC Val has grappled a Pre-Crisis Kryptonian, Zero Hour had senses to hear Emerald Empress MILES away, Judomaster's will can defy the universe so she DOESN"T have to get hit, Lady Shiva brought someone back to life using her own skill, and Richard Dragon has a couple of chi skills under his belt.

Also, O-sensei has chi tricks and Constantine Drakon can pluck dozens of arrows from top tier archers such as Green Arrow and Conner Hawk.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by iceman24567
Thats nice but its also Marvel putting a twist on their martial artists Im talking about straight h2h ability I see you aren't though. I see no definite edge in the MA department between the two company as far a pure skill is concerned.

I couldn't careless about powers. There is an established peer review hierarchy of skill in each universe. For instance, it is widely excepted among the whos who of the DC Martial Arts community that Shiva, Cass and Dragon are all more skilled than Bruce Wayne. Alternatively in Marvel it is excepted that Captain America is more skilled than Ironfist, Daredevil and Shang-chi. Ironfist and Shang-chi are - at the very least - the equal of Shiva and Dragon in terms of martial prowess, and Daredevil is practically a Batman analog with almost mirror image feats of skill. Captain America is considered by his peers to be the top of the heap among the street level martial artists, better than people who would be gunning for the top spot in the DC U hierarchy if they were in that Universe.

Sr J-Bieb
Srank convinced me, Marvel>DC.

iceman24567
Im also convinced his argument is sound and his attitude is so delightful

srankmissingnin
Are we best friends now? You guys want to sleep over? I'll ask my mom.

Prep-Man
LOL!

iceman24567
Do you have hot pockets? I love hot pockets smile

King Castle
i have always had a problem with the attitude of some of the posters one in particular who uses iceman as his sig.. really gets to me every time he post.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by iceman24567
Do you have hot pockets? I love hot pockets smile

No but I got some pizza rolls.

cdtm
Cass is kind of a ringer. How do you dodge a sniper shot in two instances, only moving after the sniper fires, or dance step between bullets with only peak human level stats..? (Not diving or leading gunfire, but actually stepping between shots fired by four gunmen within seconds of each other with inches between them like you'd see in a horse race...?)

Prep-Man
If Cap is more skilled, than can he do chi tricks along with being Kung fu master?

iceman24567
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No but I got some pizza rolls. Hmm as long as you have some hot sauce and moist toilets I'm game. Also is your mom hot?

iceman24567
Originally posted by King Castle
i have always had a problem with the attitude of some of the posters one in particular who uses iceman as his sig.. really gets to me every time he post. Really? I dont even know you hater erm

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by cdtm
Cap may be more skilled then Shang Chi, but he isn't beating him barring PIS....

Cass is kind of a ringer. How do you dodge a sniper shot in two instances, only moving after the sniper fires, or dance step between bullets with only peak human level stats..? (Not diving or leading gunfire, but actually stepping between shots fired by four gunmen within seconds of each other with inches between them like you'd see in a horse race...?)

Shang-Chi can spin fast enough to turn into a mini tornado, vanish from sight plain sight, walk on ceilings, tank class 100 blows by distributing the force, literally get knocked into orbit and fall back to earth without getting koed, ko with slight pressure point taps to the wrists of his enemies, dance between bullets after they are fired and use his chi to ko people with the silent scream. Dude's a wrecking crew. I love Shang-Chi and own all his appearances... but it is well established with in the hierarchy of the Marvel U that, in terms of application of technique he isn't as skilled as Captain America or Wolverine. I think Shang-Chi is better than any active Martial Artist in standard DC continuity, and the logical implication of that is Cap and Wolverine are more skilled as well. /shrug

marwash22
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shang-Chi can spin fast enough to turn into a mini tornado, vanish from sight plain sight, walk on ceilings, tank class 100 blows by distributing the force, literally get knocked into orbit and fall back to earth without getting koed, ko with slight pressure point taps to the wrists of his enemies, dance between bullets after they are fired and use his chi to ko people with the silent scream. Dude's a wrecking crew. I love Shang-Chi and own all his appearances... but it is well established with in the hierarchy of the Marvel U that, in terms of application of technique he isn't as skilled as Captain America or Wolverine. I think Shang-Chi is better than any active Martial Artist in standard DC continuity, and the logical implication of that is Cap and Wolverine are more skilled as well. /shrug thumb up

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Prep-Man
If Cap is more skilled, than can he do chi tricks along with being Kung fu master?

Off the top of my head I can't think of any feats of Captain America using chi. He does have some knowledge of it, after all he did teach Peter Parker and MJ how about chi when he was training them, but I can't think any feats that have been explicitly stated as being chi fueled.

Maybe he does though, and I just can't remember. I mean... even the Punisher does, so I wouldn't be surprised if Cap did as well.

iceman24567
Was that retconned too?

King Castle
nah.. he knows the generic term of chi and simple basic exercises ala gym but cap does know about "chi".

its more of a mental process cap is in the same boat as taskmaster they can fight and know various MA but dont posses nor grasp the mystic or mental discipline of chi,, its a spiritual thing,.. cap shouldnt be able to do it b/c the SSS is like cheating instead of acquiring the requirement mental discipline.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Off the top of my head I can't think of any feats of Captain America using chi. He does have some knowledge of it, after all he did teach Peter Parker and MJ how about chi when he was training them, but I can't think any feats that have been explicitly stated as being chi fueled.

Maybe he does though, and I just can't remember. I mean... even the Punisher does, so I wouldn't be surprised if Cap did as well.

I'm sure he does, but I see Shang as overall more skilled than cap. With the combo of hth expertise and chi to help him, I see him getting a majority. Same as IF.

srankmissingnin
Taskmaster knows about Chi. He copied it and learned how to do a chi based, iron fist-esq, dim mak ability. I speculate that his bullet time ability is also chi based, even if he doesn't realize it.

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm sure he does, but I see Shang as overall more skilled than cap. With the combo of hth expertise and chi to help him, I see him getting a majority. Same as IF.

Shang is certainly more versatile but he isn't more skilled.

I like to say that the SSS prevents Cap from achieving perfect harmony of mind and body to rationalize his lack of chi based abilities.

Prep-Man
How is he more skilled if he can't do what Shang can?

King Castle
physical based attacks with speed and precision makes cap better skilled. plus his enhanced attributes all help cap be better skilled then shang.

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by iceman24567
Really? I dont even know you hater erm He changed his name.

It's Will Swallow.

Prep-Man
Enhanced attributes does not equal skill. Shang can hang with guys who are more enhanced than Cap.

King Castle
but are they as skilled as cap..

shang has proven that he was incapable of lasting more then a few panels with logan.. logan is better skilled as well as enhanced.

without the chi tricks shang wouldnt last against cap either

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Prep-Man
How is he more skilled if he can't do what Shang can?

Superior application of the physical martial technique?

iceman24567
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
He changed his name.

It's Will Swallow. Oh that emo kid I'm glad the very sight of me irks him erm. By the way my sig is awesome hater

King Castle
who r u callin kid, son?

Prep-Man
Again physical amps does not equal skill, unless Cap has earned it through training. SSS helps Cap and probably wouldn't be as effective without it.

King Castle
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Again physical amps does not equal skill, unless Cap has earned it through training. SSS helps Cap and probably wouldn't be as effective without it. his skill comes from his ability to fight and mastering the various styles he has run into...

the physical amp is what makes him superior to shang in h2h.

and cap without the SSS was still kicking @$$.. even when he was having seizures and whatnot..

he is one bad mofo

iceman24567
Originally posted by King Castle
who r u callin kid, son? Lol your personality is so refreshing. Anyways I'll agree with the notion that Shang should be guys like Capt I would give Shang the majority over Shiva and Batman too from what I have seen he amps everything to the point he's superhuman and he's a top tier MA specialist

namorsubby
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap has said he is more skilled than Iron Fist and Zaran (and possibly Batroc) said he was more skilled than Shang-Chi. Even in pure h2h Steve has every advantage. Speed, strength and yes, even skill. Skill? No Speed/reflexes? Doubt it.

Cassie is pretty much superior to lady shiva in h2h and she could read Cap.


Exactly where does cap say he's superior to IF? And you say he's superior to Shang chi? Please......

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I couldn't careless about powers. There is an established peer review hierarchy of skill in each universe. For instance, it is widely excepted among the whos who of the DC Martial Arts community that Shiva, Cass and Dragon are all more skilled than Bruce Wayne. Alternatively in Marvel it is excepted that Captain America is more skilled than Ironfist, Daredevil and Shang-chi. Ironfist and Shang-chi are - at the very least - the equal of Shiva and Dragon in terms of martial prowess, and Daredevil is practically a Batman analog with almost mirror image feats of skill. Captain America is considered by his peers to be the top of the heap among the street level martial artists, better than people who would be gunning for the top spot in the DC U hierarchy if they were in that Universe.

It's seriously generally accepted iin the MU that Cap is above all those guys iin skill? Highly Doubtly.

I'm also pretty curious about just how you calculated which characters from different comic universes are exact matches for each other in skill?

Basically

Shiva,Dragon,Cassie > Batman

and Cap> IF,Shang,DD

who are = to Shiva,Cass,Dragon, except DD who is = Batman

so inevitably Cap > Batman,Cass,Shiva, and Dragon?

I don't think so.......you're pretty marvel slanted, you know that?

Q99
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Shang-Chi can spin fast enough to turn into a mini tornado, vanish from sight plain sight, walk on ceilings, tank class 100 blows by distributing the force, literally get knocked into orbit and fall back to earth without getting koed, ko with slight pressure point taps to the wrists of his enemies, dance between bullets after they are fired and use his chi to ko people with the silent scream. Dude's a wrecking crew. I love Shang-Chi and own all his appearances... but it is well established with in the hierarchy of the Marvel U that, in terms of application of technique he isn't as skilled as Captain America or Wolverine. I think Shang-Chi is better than any active Martial Artist in standard DC continuity, and the logical implication of that is Cap and Wolverine are more skilled as well. /shrug


I think he's more powerful than DC martial artists due to chi, but is likewise less skilled than some of the top DC ones.

Capt, no shield, vs Shang-Chi using all those chi powers and not just HtH, I'd give to Chi.

Chi without using all those chi powers and amps, I'd give to Capt.


Chi without his chi powers and amps, I'd give to Cassandra or Shiva because I don't think in terms of application of techniques he's on their level, just as he's not on CA's. In terms of martial arts skill, I think the top DCers are higher than him too.

King Castle
http://img15.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-22116/loc24/25ba9_blets2.jpg

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3051/masterofkungfu03076le.jpg

dont screw with the shang

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Q99
I think he's more powerful than DC martial artists due to chi, but is likewise less skilled than some of the top DC ones.

Capt, no shield, vs Shang-Chi using all those chi powers and not just HtH, I'd give to Chi.

Chi without using all those chi powers and amps, I'd give to Capt.


Chi without his chi powers and amps, I'd give to Cassandra or Shiva because I don't think in terms of application of techniques he's on their level, just as he's not on CA's. In terms of martial arts skill, I think the top DCers are higher than him too.

I'll agree with that. Though, Richard dragon is on Shang's level skill wise, IMO.

Q99
Originally posted by King Castle

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3051/masterofkungfu03076le.jpg

dont screw with the shang


Impressive.

Though may I point out this...? (all fired at roughly the same time)


Shang Chi dodges bullets. Cassandra Cain dodges into the path of bullets in mid air, then out again, while smiling smile


When it comes to speed feats, I don't think you'll find someone that tops her out of martial artists in either universe.

cdtm
Originally posted by Q99
Impressive.

Though may I point out this...? (all fired at roughly the same time)


Shang Chi dodges bullets. Cassandra Cain dodges into the path of bullets in mid air, then out again, while smiling smile


When it comes to speed feats, I don't think you'll find someone that tops her out of martial artists in either universe.

There's this one scan of Iron Fist where he swats a flurry of darts out of mid air.. The poster arguing for the feat claimed dartguns can actually have higher velocity then bullets, or something...

I've also seen him step out of the path of after-fired bullets by mere inches, while claiming doing so was taxing his Iron Fist...

Deadline
Originally posted by namorsubby


It's seriously generally accepted iin the MU that Cap is above all those guys iin skill? Highly Doubtly.

Is it really worth explaing it to you so you can nitpick?

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Q99
Impressive.

Though may I point out this...? (all fired at roughly the same time)


Shang Chi dodges bullets. Cassandra Cain dodges into the path of bullets in mid air, then out again, while smiling smile


When it comes to speed feats, I don't think you'll find someone that tops her out of martial artists in either universe.

Awesome feat.

Accel
Typhoid Mary has pretty much the best bullet-timing feat ever.

And she's not even a top-tier martial artist.

namorsubby
Originally posted by Deadline
Is it really worth explaing it to you so you can nitpick? I just don't think it was ever common knowledge in the MU that Steve exceeds these guys in skill.

BattleMage
Steve Rogers for the win

r0nm0n88
i think steve wins, but i do think he is less skilled to be honest. Just give him the edge because he is around the same level in speed and agility slight edge to cass, but hes just much stronger and way more durable.

cdtm
Originally posted by r0nm0n88
i think steve wins, but i do think he is less skilled to be honest. Just give him the edge because he is around the same level in speed and agility slight edge to cass, but hes just much stronger and way more durable.

Cass isn't a slouch in strength either.. She did punch through bullet proof glass bare fisted, and took down a meta level character who kicked Batmans arse, to name a few...

But even if it can be proven Steve has the strength edge, I think Cass's extra normal body reading ability pushes her over the top. It's generally one step below precog, to the point where she can tell what's on someones mind simply from what they're body is subconsciously doing, like low level telepathy... Body reading is actually her primary language, and used to be her only method of communicating...

Lord_Talron
you kno, skilled martial artists can read peoples next moves irl

fun fact.

cdtm
Originally posted by Lord_Talron
you kno, skilled martial artists can read peoples next moves irl

fun fact.

Body reading is basic for martial artists, but as I said Casses is extra normal. In her case, it's more of a super power because of how it was integrated, depriving her of all languages until the ability to read someone like a book became engrained in the part of the brain usually dedicated to processing words.

In effect, people are literally shouting out what's on their mind from little subconscious cues no normal person could notice, right down to how the skin subtly ripples along their body, as was explained in her series. If you're in love, for example, it doesn't matter how much you try and hide it... she'll know.

King Castle
kinda how DD, wolverine sabretooth and black panther and even IF have noticed minor cues in ppl?

Lord_Talron
well considering that those people are meta in one way or another and she not...

King Castle
well has cap ever displayed a similar ability?

i know echo and taskmaster have..

Lord_Talron
tasky has a superhuman ability to copy any move he sees, thats kinda a by-product of that. echo too

King Castle
what about shang chi maybe elektra?

cdtm
Originally posted by Lord_Talron
tasky has a superhuman ability to copy any move he sees, thats kinda a by-product of that. echo too

Yeah, I think Taskmaster has a similar thing going.

Cass displays a similar ability to pick up fighting techniques as well, like how she managed to stick fight on Oracles advanced level, despite never having picked up stickfighting in her life. She got it all from simply watching her as they fought.

Lord_Talron
hi-tier martial artists. if they cant read people during battle they deserve to lose all the time

King Castle
like punisher not knowing what coming next when he fight DD?

Lord_Talron
punisher is nowhere close to shang and electra

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Lord_Talron
punisher is nowhere close to shang and electra
Shh...let them dream.

Lord_Talron
!

King Castle
http://a.imageshack.us/img7/7391/punvsddgarth3.jpg

http://img683.imageshack.us/f/punvsddlap2.jpg/

no one is saying otherwise.

Q99
Originally posted by cdtm
Body reading is basic for martial artists, but as I said Casses is extra normal. In her case, it's more of a super power because of how it was integrated, depriving her of all languages until the ability to read someone like a book became engrained in the part of the brain usually dedicated to processing words.

In effect, people are literally shouting out what's on their mind from little subconscious cues no normal person could notice, right down to how the skin subtly ripples along their body, as was explained in her series. If you're in love, for example, it doesn't matter how much you try and hide it... she'll know.

Yea.

A good martial artist might see a twitch and thus know you're going to throw a punch and next combo. Cassandra can see a twitch and tell your next two combos, your emotional state, and what you're going to do in response to each of her responses, and do so with everyone in the room.

Or see an eye movement which she knows is going to lead to that twitch.

It's not rare that she beats up opposing martial artists without watching because she knows how it'll go, with only very good fighters actually requiring attention.



The point isn't that Cassandra can read moves. The point is that Cass can do it to significantly superhuman levels and can see farther and deeper than anyone else can. It's a power.

There's a scene of her visiting the League of Assassins training under Shiva, and noting with a glance how far each of the students can see.



Or learning Shadow Thief's style on the fly in moments and loving the fact he was intangible because it mean she could play without worry, allowing her to 'kill' him with his own style moments after learning it.

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