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http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/574/119802-132007-justice-league-elite_large.jpg

vs

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/308/87316-50802-avengers_large.jpg

only the people pictured?

Sentry, quite possibly solos.

JLE

JLE

who was that wolf guy that could still sense vera wasnt deathstroke even tho her tech was telling his mind she was>

Wolf guy?

yea on the mission where they were gonna take out that dictator harboring a genocidal maniac. he was like a werewolf or something

Member of the JLA?

no, member of the kill squad that was going to wipe the country off the face of the earth

Wolfwood, you mean?

---

JLE takes it. Sentry's powerful, but you got two people who've taken on Superman and done well (I wonder how Sentry'd react to the drugs Vera sometimes uses...? Or Coldcast's 'short circuit the nervous system' blast), you've got Wally-Flash, you've got a strong magic user (and Strange had been weakened enough in NA I'd even see Manitou win that one!), Menagerie and Major Disaster pack serious power too, and the two 'street levels' aren't bad.

The numbers involved might make it be a tough fight, but Wally on his own is good at equalizing that, and the greater number of power houses handle the rest.

going with avengers.

sentry and strange on the same group...nice

Originally posted by Warlord
going with avengers.

sentry and strange on the same group...nice

This is 'has trouble with ninja' strange

Originally posted by Q99
This is 'has trouble with ninja' strange

lol this is strange before he got powered down. The fact the writer wrote him having problems with ninjas falls under the PIS category and has happened to pretty much every character (I could say "this is Flash that was having issues with Ubermensch". if this was current Strange I would agree becasue of his "official" power downgrade

Originally posted by Warlord
lol this is strange before he got powered down. The fact the writer wrote him having problems with ninjas falls under the PIS category and has happened to pretty much every character (I could say "this is Flash that was having issues with Ubermensch". if this was current Strange I would agree becasue of his "official" power downgrade

This is Strange as he was during New Avengers specifically, though, and he had been having power-problems during this era.


Btw, this is the Flash that was literally serving on two teams in two different parts of the world by going back and fourth so fast he appeared blurry-visible at both, ultimately resulting in him 'meeting' himself face to face via a long distance portal.

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We're still talking 2 people at Herald level at most on the NA side, and 3-4 on the JLE side.

Originally posted by Q99
This is Strange as he was during New Avengers specifically, though, and he had been having power-problems during this era.


Btw, this is the Flash that was literally serving on two teams in two different parts of the world by going back and fourth so fast he appeared blurry-visible at both, ultimately resulting in him 'meeting' himself face to face via a long distance portal.

---
We're still talking 2 people at Herald level at most on the NA side, and 3-4 on the JLE side.
Strange had power problems only after the WWH ark. and the ninja incident was before that IIRC

Yet it was the same Flash who was impressed by Ubermench's speed and got KOed by him (PIS as much as the ninja thing).

who do you consider heralds from the JLE?
Flash for sure. other than that, Disaster or Manitu were rarelly impressive to me

Originally posted by Warlord

who do you consider heralds from the JLE?
Flash for sure. other than that, Disaster or Manitu were rarelly impressive to me

In addition to Wally, Vera, Coldcast, and possibly Manitou.

Manitou Raven did get most of the JLA in Obsidian Age with his birdswarm spell (Got Superman, WW, and MM in one shot!), as well as having charms that were capable of getting past Circe's charms/barriers, his stick was capable of breaking Gamemne's binding spell and making a shield that blocked J'onn's eyebeams, and of course his Inukchuck mode was capable of going physical with Quagmire Gamemne who was in turn able to toss around much of the League (although it weakens or strengths depending on the area, ground soaked with blood is worse for him, pure lands better). Transforming back and forth from birds or leaves as often as he does is fairly impressive too.

So yea, he's a fairly powerful mage.



The JL Elite never fought Ubermench. It did happen during Kelly's JLA run, but Kelly's also the one who did the "Flash evacuates an entire city from a nuke solo" that's one of Wally's best speed feats ever.

Originally posted by Q99
In addition to Wally, Vera, Coldcast, and possibly Manitou.

Manitou Raven did get most of the JLA in Obsidian Age with his birdswarm spell (Got Superman, WW, and MM in one shot!), as well as having charms that were capable of getting past Circe's charms/barriers, his stick was capable of breaking Gamemne's binding spell and making a shield that blocked J'onn's eyebeams, and of course his Inukchuck mode was capable of going physical with Quagmire Gamemne who was in turn able to toss around much of the League (although it weakens or strengths depending on the area, ground soaked with blood is worse for him, pure lands better). Transforming back and forth from birds or leaves as often as he does is fairly impressive too.

So yea, he's a fairly powerful mage.



The JL Elite never fought Ubermench. It did happen during Kelly's JLA run, but Kelly's also the one who did the "Flash evacuates an entire city from a nuke solo" that's one of Wally's best speed feats ever.

Coldcast I can accept. Vera is a cyborg wich could be nothing Extremis Ironman cannot deal with (certenly not a herald in my book).

As for Manitu. I am aware of what you mention and indeed he was impressive in his first aprarences (Obsidian Age). But after that when he joined JLA he had doen nothing to suggest he is that formidable. He's good but not that good.

OMG you are still arguing about Flash. it happened some issues before the Burning (when the evacuation took part) if I remember correctly. I don't mention it to suggest Flash is slow, just to show you that anyone can pick low showings for a single character (PIS). You mention the Ninjas I mention ubermensch. we shouldn't. both of us

One minor power to note- 'Kasumi'/Cassandra Cain has a thanagarian shadow field ala Shadow Thief during her time with the JLElite.


Originally posted by Warlord
Coldcast I can accept. Vera is a cyborg wich could be nothing Extremis Ironman cannot deal with (certenly not a herald in my book).

She's a lot more powerful a cyborg than Tony. Vera and Superman were slugging it out and causing a lot of collateral damage and leave burn marks on him with her blasts.

Plus she took out Alan Scott, which is nice too (and he thought she was some villain, didn't know it was an undercover hero at the time).



He does another large-scale Inukchuck in Elite just as big as the one against Gamemnae, and there's the baffling Circe's magic, which is pretty impressive her being a goddess and all.

The time at the massacre fields he's less impressive, but it was specifically draining, even painful to him and boosting his opponent (and he still won).

And in the JLA, it's not that he does less well, it's that he barely does anything except get inside J'onn's soul and determine a massacre didn't happen.

You can throw out high showings if there's low showings to contradict it, but not just because a character isn't present for the action.




Uh, you mentioned it last post? *Shrugs*






But Strange was consistently low-powered throughout New Avengers, Ubermench was only in the one story, he really could've been very fast for all we know, it's hard to even call it a low showing when it's just an unknown.

Originally posted by Q99
One minor power to note- 'Kasumi'/Cassandra Cain has a thanagarian shadow field ala Shadow Thief during her time with the JLElite.




She's a lot more powerful a cyborg than Tony. Vera and Superman were slugging it out and causing a lot of collateral damage and leave burn marks on him with her blasts.

Plus she took out Alan Scott, which is nice too (and he thought she was some villain, didn't know it was an undercover hero at the time).



He does another large-scale Inukchuck in Elite just as big as the one against Gamemnae, and there's the baffling Circe's magic, which is pretty impressive her being a goddess and all.

The time at the massacre fields he's less impressive, but it was specifically draining, even painful to him and boosting his opponent (and he still won).

And in the JLA, it's not that he does less well, it's that he barely does anything except get inside J'onn's soul and determine a massacre didn't happen.

You can throw out high showings if there's low showings to contradict it, but not just because a character isn't present for the action.




Uh, you mentioned it last post? *Shrugs*






But Strange was consistently low-powered throughout New Avengers, Ubermench was only in the one story, he really could've been very fast for all we know, it's hard to even call it a low showing when it's just an unknown.


I mentioned it as a PIS example. you keep on trying to prove Wally is fast something I alredy know and do not doubt.

Vera was fighting Superman in a fake fight. It is the same fight where coldcast took him out IIRC. it wasn't a real fight. they ahve set this up.
as for allan scott I don't know the incident but I believe you. however it's not a question of raw power. it's just extremis could take over her. unless there are feats of technopath resistance.

to add to the manitu case he was unable to beat the magic guy of the Axis. I don't say he doesn't have high end showings only he's not impressive enough from what i've read (JLA mostly) to consider him a herald.

do you want me to go on with wally? I can. that's not the point. also I don't remember any instances that suggest constant power problems with Strange in NA as you mention. Taking all the Mighty Avengers (sentry included) in one spell comes in mind however

overall you say 3-4 heralds against 2. I doubt that. or even if it is so it would be some low level heralds (Wally excluded) against 2 top ones
Avengers should take 6/10 for me

Originally posted by Q99
Wolfwood, you mean? thanks

Originally posted by Warlord
Vera was fighting Superman in a fake fight. It is the same fight where coldcast took him out IIRC. it wasn't a real fight. they ahve set this up.

LOL who gives a &%$*? A fight's a fight whether or not characters get prep ahead of time.

Originally posted by Warlord
as for allan scott I don't know the incident but I believe you. however it's not a question of raw power. it's just extremis could take over her. unless there are feats of technopath resistance.

Irrelevant. Extremis Tony exploiting a weakness in Vera has no connection to her general "power level".

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
LOL who gives a &%$*? A fight's a fight whether or not characters get prep ahead of time.


the fight was STAGED BY BOTH SIDES. they were putting on a show for mother earth so she wouldnt wtfpwn the world

Strange takes manitu down, sentry takes flash, IM probably takes Black and the rest can ganbang Coldcast. Wolverine would take Cassandra down by the way.

Avengers win.

Originally posted by Warlord
I mentioned it as a PIS example. you keep on trying to prove Wally is fast something I alredy know and do not doubt.

Why's it even supposed to be a PIS example though? The guy's an unknown superhuman working for the same boss as Faith, so we know the organization had some strong supers, and were apparently assembled to take on the JLA.




The outcome was decided. The burn marks and craters left in the ground and all that were not, she was clearly both taking high-powered hits and dishing out actual damage to Clark.

Unless he just bruises and burns on his own, which is not a power of Clark's I'm familiar with admittedly.

Also, this fight had to be realistic enough to convince Gaia herself.



Nope, that was an earlier one, totally un-rigged and in Coldcast's villain days.



Her tech's directly interfaced with her brain and has tech designed to spoof tech (as well as spoof psychics. It's black ops capabilities is *l33t*).

Plus there's a copy of her brother's mind in there waiting to take over too.

Not betting on Extremis here.




What, the guy merged with the demon/djinni and made of living shadow who had no problem messing with Firestorm either and ended up retreating after a mostly-offscreen short clash?

You read the Obsidian Age stuff, and none of his other feats contradict it. If you're going to argue that he's not as powerful as OA, you need to point to low-end feats, not just point out how he was mostly a benchwarmer for his 2 other JLA stories.

There's no doubt his ultimate Inukchuck spell at least temporarily puts him at Herald level.



Which is something Manitou's also done.

At this level Strange cannot go head-to-head with Manitou and deal with another herald level at the same time (or probably even a less-than-herald level like Disaster).



If it's 4 on 2 at the high end (and let's say that's not even Flash, have him hold off everyone else, let's say that's MD dropped big attacks on their head), Strange and Sentry'll go down, then the rest of the NA will follow.

Flash soles the avengers while sentry soles the JLE
then they stalemate

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Flash soles the avengers while sentry soles the JLE
then they stalemate sentry takes flash down.

If this is void sentry, he could simply mind rape flash. But to be honest a non jobbing flash is absurd, he could blizt the shit out of sentry.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
LOL who gives a &%$*? A fight's a fight whether or not characters get prep ahead of time.



Irrelevant. Extremis Tony exploiting a weakness in Vera has no connection to her general "power level".

read the book...it was just a show..they played the whole fight...Ican't make it more clear.

Originally posted by Q99
Why's it even supposed to be a PIS example though? The guy's an unknown superhuman working for the same boss as Faith, so we know the organization had some strong supers, and were apparently assembled to take on the JLA.




The outcome was decided. The burn marks and craters left in the ground and all that were not, she was clearly both taking high-powered hits and dishing out actual damage to Clark.

Unless he just bruises and burns on his own, which is not a power of Clark's I'm familiar with admittedly.

Also, this fight had to be realistic enough to convince Gaia herself.



Nope, that was an earlier one, totally un-rigged and in Coldcast's villain days.



Her tech's directly interfaced with her brain and has tech designed to spoof tech (as well as spoof psychics. It's black ops capabilities is *l33t*).

Plus there's a copy of her brother's mind in there waiting to take over too.

Not betting on Extremis here.




What, the guy merged with the demon/djinni and made of living shadow who had no problem messing with Firestorm either and ended up retreating after a mostly-offscreen short clash?

You read the Obsidian Age stuff, and none of his other feats contradict it. If you're going to argue that he's not as powerful as OA, you need to point to low-end feats, not just point out how he was mostly a benchwarmer for his 2 other JLA stories.

There's no doubt his ultimate Inukchuck spell at least temporarily puts him at Herald level.



Which is something Manitou's also done.

At this level Strange cannot go head-to-head with Manitou and deal with another herald level at the same time (or probably even a less-than-herald level like Disaster).



If it's 4 on 2 at the high end (and let's say that's not even Flash, have him hold off everyone else, let's say that's MD dropped big attacks on their head), Strange and Sentry'll go down, then the rest of the NA will follow.

not very comfortable quoting every sentence...

let's try it this way.

- it is PIS because from his overall appearances even before this ark he has never shown speed comparable to Supes, let alone Wally.

- Tony can and has taken control/shut off tech based characters. Her tech is of course linked with her mind winch might lead you think she might be able to resist extremis BUT unless she has done it on paper (something I have not seen) saying she will not be affected is pure speculation

-You are right about Manitu in a way but as a single low showing for Strange (ninja) is enough to deem him depowered so not enough high showings are enough for me for Manitu to deem him unimpressive. In addition I would like to know when Manitu took out a group in the Mighty Avewngers level with one spell.

- Besides the ninja thing I don't really remember something else to justify the level you are making Strange to be

-And let's not pretend it's only Strange and Sentry in the group. Having basic knowledge for each other I don't see why, Wonderman let's say, can't take out MD before his attack is completed (I really don't remember him doing anything major without some concentration first)

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
the fight was STAGED BY BOTH SIDES. they were putting on a show for mother earth so she wouldnt wtfpwn the world

That doesn't make the injuries any less real. Vera and Superman weren't fighting to kill each other, but they had to make it convincing enough to fool Gaea. If Superman has some ability to lower his durability, I'm not aware of it. It actually supports the idea that Vera can dish out more damage than shown on-panel doing that fight.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
That doesn't make the injuries any less real. Vera and Superman weren't fighting to kill each other, but they had to make it convincing enough to fool Gaea. If Superman has some ability to lower his durability, I'm not aware of it. It actually supports the idea that Vera can dish out more damage than shown on-panel doing that fight. hm, your logic is sound afaic. it makes sense


or flash could be doing makeup at FTL

never even thought of that.

Originally posted by Warlord
not very comfortable quoting every sentence...

let's try it this way.

- it is PIS because from his overall appearances even before this ark he has never shown speed comparable to Supes, let alone Wally.

That was his first appearance.



When talking about her camo abilities the ability to spoof machines is specifically noted.



But he had more than one low showing, he was consistently lowish during that time period. The was a time when the team was falling out of a plane and iirc it took him awhile to do a simple 'feather fall' spell on everyone.



The JLA.

One spell took out Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Batman, Plastic Man and Flash.




He can snap his fingers and make an earthquake or make some violate substance blow up (he made Coldcast's powers basically explode once. Hm, I wonder if he could do that on any of the MA...). It only takes time for stuff like meteors where the disaster has to actually 'arrive.'

Flash can help a lot with numbers, and Menagerie is pretty high in the meta category too.

Flash aint beating Sentry and Strange could just make everyone witness their worse nightmares. Allowing deathblows. A feat he performed in New Avengers.

Or Manitou can cancel him out. Cass with Shadow Thief's tech can blindside Strange.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Flash aint beating Sentry and Strange could just make everyone witness their worse nightmares. Allowing deathblows. A feat he performed in New Avengers.

Except Sentry will be dealing with at least one probably two other Herald-levelers, and like Prep mentioned Manitou will largely be canceling out Strange.

Sentry can't deal with everything.

Cool to be honest I'm not familiar with these Elite JLs.

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents in.

So if those guys can do that.

What will all of them do about Sentry.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Cool to be honest I'm not familiar with these Elite JLs.

Just thought I'd throw in my two cents in.

So if those guys can do that.

What will all of them do about Sentry.

Coldcast's a high-level energy user who can do stuff like short-circuit nervous systems (once took out Firestorm and Faith in the same shot). He has taken out Superman before. If he's not busy fighting Sentry, who's probably the only Avenger here tough enough to take his attacks, he'd tear right through most of the lower ranks.

Vera Black is a cyborg with a wide variety of energy weapons, and has both physical durability and forcefields. She's gone toe-to-toe with Superman and her sonics have one-shotted Plastic Man. Plus she also has drug attacks that she used to take out Alan Scott. Sentry being a drug addict, those might be effective.

Manitou is a high-level mage who has a lot of powerful spells including one mass knockout spell involving sending a huge swarm of birds (took out 6 top JLAers), or converting his magic into raw physical power and size that has allowed him to match the strength of a Trans-level opponent for a temporary time. He also has a magic stick that can't be broken and a magic axe that can't hurt a good person but can cut through the non-good extra well.


Those're the three non-Flash heralds.

Not counting them, Menagerie and Major Disaster are probably high-meta or so.

I reckon Coldcast gets killed Sentry can take all that and if not reform behind the guy.

When it comes to Vera Black Sentry can fight toe to toe just like Supes and if she tries to use drugs on him. I don't believe his past addiction would have an effect.

Sentry Kills Manitou like he killed Morgan Le faye.

Once again Im not familiar with these guys Im just going off your explanations.

Wasn't Walter apart of JLE? He'd whup Sentry's ass,

I would think Vera going head-on while Coldcast fries his nervous system'd probably KO him, though. One on one, Sentry's the toughest on the field, but I doubt he can take the firepower of two.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Wasn't Walter apart of JLE? He'd whup Sentry's ass,

Wally, just in a different costume.

Originally posted by Q99
That was his first appearance.



When talking about her camo abilities the ability to spoof machines is specifically noted.



But he had more than one low showing, he was consistently lowish during that time period. The was a time when the team was falling out of a plane and iirc it took him awhile to do a simple 'feather fall' spell on everyone.



The JLA.

One spell took out Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Batman, Plastic Man and Flash.




He can snap his fingers and make an earthquake or make some violate substance blow up (he made Coldcast's powers basically explode once. Hm, I wonder if he could do that on any of the MA...). It only takes time for stuff like meteors where the disaster has to actually 'arrive.'

Flash can help a lot with numbers, and Menagerie is pretty high in the meta category too.

-his first apearence was back in 1987

-her ability to spoof machines does not provide proof that she can counter extremis. it might let you think she could do it but since she hasn't done on paper I'm betting she won't resist Tony

- The incident with the plane was while he while he was recovering from the ninja stab IIRC. any other stuff that makes you think he was depowered?

- Can you give me the issue where he did that to the JLA. was it in Obsidian Age?

- Agreed Flash is the biggest threat here but the same can be said for the Sentry. Besides Wally he can speed blitz all the others (while wally can do the same to his team so...).

Anyway to me Avengers win 6/10 (they have Wolverine after all )