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Lets imagine that Norman Osborn is after Black Adam. This is basically Dark Reign Norman with all his resources after Black Adam which means Norman Osborn has Hammer, Dark Avengers, Thunderbolts, The Hood and the Deadly Dozen after him. The difference is that Norman has no distractions like having to fight Cyclops or hunt Iron Man, all his efforts and resources are going to be used to take down BA.

Black Adam has assembled a Guerilla taskforce to help him assasinate Norman and back him up. They are:

Dark Reign Punisher and Henry of course
Blade
Wolverine
Quicksilver
Luke Cage
Overrider http://marvel.wikia.com/Overrider_(Richard_Rennsalaer)

Sentry is only the real problem i think

Before BA could get to norman he would have to fight Sentry

I guess you mean the Thunderbolts he had when he was in charge right?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
I guess you mean the Thunderbolts he had when he was in charge right?

Yea basically Mr X, Paladin etc



Originally posted by ankur29
Sentry is only the real problem i think

Before BA could get to norman he would have to fight Sentry

No he doesn't it's guerilla warfare.

I dont see Norman losing this. Take BA and Sentry out of the equation for a moment and Norman still has way more firepower and better people than the characters assembled for BA.

Knowing BA is after him, Norman wouldnt have Sentry anywhere but beside him in this case so its probable that BA and Bob would have a showdown.

Like I said, Norman wins.

Originally posted by tkitna
I dont see Norman losing this. Take BA and Sentry out of the equation for a moment and Norman still has way more firepower and better people than the characters assembled for BA.

Knowing BA is after him, Norman wouldnt have Sentry anywhere but beside him in this case so its probable that BA and Bob would have a showdown.

Like I said, Norman wins.

You do know this is guerilla warfare right? The fight isn't in a battlefield, its a tactical cat and mouse game. Norman could lose hard actually.

He doesn't have better assasins and hackers.

Originally posted by Deadline
You do know this is guerilla warfare right? The fight isn't in a battlefield, its a tactical cat and mouse game. Norman could lose hard actually.

He doesn't have better assasins and hackers.

He doesnt have better assasins and hackers? Ok, Overrider might be an issue, but good lord, Norman has Black Widow, Paladin, Ghost, Scourge, Bullseye, Ares, The Hood, Daken, Ant Man, and the resources of SHIELD. Lets not forget the telepaths like Mister X and Black Abbot along with all the other firewpower from the other characters.

Norman cant lose in my opinion.

Adam isn't the stealthy type. If he wants to come after you, he tears somebody in half like a phonebook and tells you you're next. He's smart, but i don't see him outwitting Osborn when his first instinct is going to be to just go after him.

Even if he did use his brain, I dont think it would matter.

Originally posted by tkitna
Even if he did use his brain, I dont think it would matter.

that's what i said...

Normie

Originally posted by -Pr-
that's what i said...

I know. I just meant if he went in with fists flying, he'd lose that way too.

Originally posted by Deadline
He doesn't have better assasins and hackers. Yes he has

Originally posted by Deadline
You do know this is guerilla warfare right? The fight isn't in a battlefield, its a tactical cat and mouse game. Norman could lose hard actually.

He doesn't have better assasins and hackers. yes he does, he had ghost, had a huge surveilance and information network with hammer and he could at least counter all those people you listed for BA

Plus, he has the Hood on his side and his mob of villains including microchip and this weird cyberspace walker robot.

not to mention what he had in raw power, it's not just the sentry, he had the u-foes, ares, moonstone, etc.

Originally posted by tkitna
I know. I just meant if he went in with fists flying, he'd lose that way too.

Well if he has god Sentry, then sure.

Originally posted by tkitna
He doesnt have better assasins and hackers? Ok, Overrider might be an issue, but good lord, Norman has Black Widow, Paladin, Ghost, Scourge, Bullseye, Ares, The Hood, Daken, Ant Man, and the resources of SHIELD. Lets not forget the telepaths like Mister X and Black Abbot along with all the other firewpower from the other characters.

Norman cant lose in my opinion.

Its just Hammer. Thunderbolts, Dark Avengers The Hood and the Deadly Dozen thats it. Black Widow wasn't on Normans side and won't help Norman.

Bare in mind that Punisher on his own took on the Hood by himself. Iron Fist and Cage punked the Thunderbolts. Henry is also an issue hes been shown to be better than Microchip at hacking.




Originally posted by -Pr-
Adam isn't the stealthy type. If he wants to come after you, he tears somebody in half like a phonebook and tells you you're next. He's smart, but i don't see him outwitting Osborn when his first instinct is going to be to just go after him.

Have a look at JSA blackreign. BA is capable of stealth when he needs to be.



Originally posted by 753
yes he does, he had ghost, had a huge surveilance and information network with hammer and he could at least counter all those people you listed for BA

No not neccesarily. It's going to be alot harder then you think.



Originally posted by 753
not to mention what he had in raw power, it's not just the sentry, he had the u-foes, ares, moonstone, etc.

Its only the people I mentioned at the beginning sorry for the mix up.

BA would kill the U-Foes. That's for damn sure.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
BA would kill the U-Foes. That's for damn sure.

U-foes aren't allowed sorry.

BA has experience in taking on teams. Look what he did to JSA in Geoff Johns run. Most of Norman's team dies, if he uses his speed.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
BA has experience in taking on teams. Look what he did to JSA in Geoff Johns run.

Thats what I'm basing this thread on. Surely Power Girl and Sentinel jobbed though.

I'm talking about the instance where Dr. Fate said something about his magic not working on Adam, so he needed Hourman's help to do some bs and tricks.

Hawkman maced Adam's face pretty bad, though.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I'm talking about the instance where Dr. Fate said something about his magic not working on Adam, so he needed Hourman's help to do some bs and tricks.

Oh yeah I remember that.

Originally posted by Prep-Man

Hawkman maced Adam's face pretty bad, though.

With help from Sentinel.

Adam can also take some punishment. Like when he was punched to the moon by Onimar Synn.

He also got stomped on by his foot. lol

Originally posted by Prep-Man
BA would kill the U-Foes. That's for damn sure.

I actually doubt that. X-ray and Vector can take him on, vapor might do some monor damage as well.

I dont think BA can take Sentry so i'm not concerned with him and I think Normans team overwhelms the rest of BA's team with sheer numbers if nothing else. Nobody on BA's team is so superior in any area that it would matter.

Originally posted by tkitna
I dont think BA can take Sentry so i'm not concerned with him and I think Normans team overwhelms the rest of BA's team with sheer numbers if nothing else.

I dunno man as I pointed out this isn't a battlefield fight.

Originally posted by tkitna

Nobody on BA's team is so superior in any area that it would matter.

Yes there are Punisher, Wolverine and Blade are much better assassins than anybody Norman has. Punisher with Henry stalemated The Hood and the Deadly Dozen. Wolverine on his own was able to stay hidden from SHIELD and deafted other Metas as well. Blade doesn't just kill vamps he has alot of experience in black ops. Hell Luke Cage and Iron Fist punked the Thunderbolts.

No offence you keep saying that but you haven't engaged in any debate at all. You just keep saying Normans going to win.

Originally posted by Deadline
I dunno man as I pointed out this isn't a battlefield fight.

True, its not just a beatdown, but Sentry will be guided by Osborn and as much stealth and smarts as Adam has, he aint Norman in that aspect.



Better than Bullseye, Hood, Scourge, Ghost, Daken, etc,,? I dont think so. Once again, I think you forget the telepaths that Normen has at his disposal too.



I dont know what you want me to say. Do I need to list the hundred or so characters you've given Norman access to and list what issues they could cause the limited list you gave BA? Tell me what you want. I think you have it in your head that the 5 or so characters you've given Adam are just so superior to the 100 or so characters that norman has and that just isnt so.

Originally posted by Deadline
Have a look at JSA blackreign. BA is capable of stealth when he needs to be.

I did. My point stands.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I did. My point stands.

In stands in the sense that BA usually uses his fists. The point of the reference is that he can be sneaky when he wants ie what he did to Captain Marvel.

Originally posted by Deadline
In stands in the sense that BA usually uses his fists. The point of the reference is that he can be sneaky when he wants ie what he did to Captain Marvel.

It isn't his strength. It is Norman's. Saying "he can be sneaky when he wants to be" doesn't address the massive gulf between the two that already exists.

Why do you think Henry is a better Hacker than Microchip? I remeber their only "battle" that MC tricked him into a trap and sended that Cyberspace Wlaker after him to kill him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
It isn't his strength.


Do you think that it could possibly be due to the fact that he doesn't need most of the time? You could say the samething about Wolverine.

Originally posted by -Pr-

It is Norman's. Saying "he can be sneaky when he wants to be" doesn't address the massive gulf between the two that already exists.

Which could be due to the fact that BA doesn't need to. If he wants to he can consult the others anyway.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Why do you think Henry is a better Hacker than Microchip? I remeber their only "battle" that MC tricked him into a trap and sended that Cyberspace Wlaker after him to kill him.

Thank you for illustrating my point. The only time Micro got the batter of Henry was when he used Megatak. Henry punked Micro before that.

Originally posted by Deadline
Do you think that it could possibly be due to the fact that he doesn't need most of the time? You could say the samething about Wolverine.



Which could be due to the fact that BA doesn't need to. If he wants to he can consult the others anyway.



Thank you for illustrating my point. The only time Micro got the batter of Henry was when he used Megatak. Henry punked Micro before that.

No, you couldn't. Adam is a smart man, but he isn't nearly as built for the kind of stealthy work that Osborne is. Wolverine is also completely different.

Adam? Ask others opinions? That's not exactly likely, and even if it was, Osborn still has better resources.

Do you have the issue number of that at hand?

Originally posted by -Pr-
No, you couldn't.

Fine don't attempt to adress the point then. We'll just ignore that bit then and move on. I don't think you understand the point I was making about Wolverine. Wolverine is more stealthy but thats not the point I was making at all.

Hell I don't even neccesarily disagree with you but if you're gonna be like that forget it.

Originally posted by -Pr-

Adam? Ask others opinions? That's not exactly likely,

Why not he was a member of the JSA the reason why he left was because they wouldn't kill not because he doesn't like taking orders.

Originally posted by -Pr-
and even if it was, Osborn still has better resources.

It's not what you got its how you use it. The Hood had better resources than the Punisher he still failed to kill him. The concept if this thread is guerilla warfare. The concept of this is fighting against a much bigger and well equipped force and Wolverine, Blade and Punisher are well suited for this.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Do you have the issue number of that at hand?

Punisher 6 I think.

Originally posted by Deadline
In stands in the sense that BA usually uses his fists. The point of the reference is that he can be sneaky when he wants ie what he did to Captain Marvel.

He's not one dimensional, but he's also no Sivana.

See how he handled the Oolong Island genius's, bolting in without a plan and falling prey to a plot device.

Originally posted by Deadline
Fine don't attempt to adress the point then. We'll just ignore that bit then and move on. I don't think you understand the point I was making about Wolverine. Wolverine is more stealthy but thats not the point I was making at all.

Hell I don't even neccesarily disagree with you but if you're gonna be like that forget it.



Why not he was a member of the JSA the reason why he left was because they wouldn't kill not because he doesn't like taking orders.



It's not what you got its how you use it. The Hood had better resources than the Punisher he still failed to kill him. The concept if this thread is guerilla warfare. The concept of this is fighting against a much bigger and well equipped force and Wolverine, Blade and Punisher are well suited for this.

this:

Originally posted by cdtm
He's not one dimensional, but he's also no Sivana.

See how he handled the Oolong Island genius's, bolting in without a plan and falling prey to a plot device.

is all the answer i need, really.

I don't expect you to understand my points, but that's fine.

Originally posted by cdtm
He's not one dimensional, but he's also no Sivana.

See how he handled the Oolong Island genius's, bolting in without a plan and falling prey to a plot device.

Ok but I don't think hes going to do that in this situation. When he knows he has a crap load of people after him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
this:



is all the answer i need, really.

I don't expect you to understand my points, but that's fine.

No I understand your point completely but again you are just talking and ignoring the point being made.

Cdtm addressed the point you didn't. He understands when somebody makes a point you adress it instead of just making statements. Saying 'no' doesn't prove anything.

Originally posted by tkitna


Better than Bullseye, Hood, Scourge, Ghost, Daken, etc,,? I dont think so. Once again, I think you forget the telepaths that Normen has at his disposal too.



in a forum fight BA should oneshot most of these guys

Originally posted by Deadline
No I understand your point completely but again you are just talking and ignoring the point being made.

Cdtm addressed the point you didn't. He understands when somebody makes a point you adress it instead of just making statements.

Just because I didn't adress it to your satisfaction doesn't mean I didn't adress it.

and cdtm is right, btw.

Originally posted by ankur29
in a forum fight BA should oneshot most of these guys He's mentioning them for Assassins and Hackers not Big Guns against BA

I see Norman winning after sacrificing a lot of pawns.

Originally posted by ankur29
in a forum fight BA should oneshot most of these guys

Yeah, I wasnt talking about Adam or Normans top tiers. I was talking about the second tier people or guerilla warfare characters.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Adam isn't the stealthy type. If he wants to come after you, he tears somebody in half like a phonebook and tells you you're next. He's smart, but i don't see him outwitting Osborn when his first instinct is going to be to just go after him.

This.

What power level is sentry?

At least trans, possibly much higher.

Originally posted by The Nuul
This.

Ok you do know BA has used stealth before, when he needed to?

Originally posted by cdtm


See how he handled the Oolong Island genius's, bolting in without a plan and falling prey to a plot device.

Wait, no was this after Isis died and he went nuts?

Originally posted by tkitna
True, its not just a beatdown, but Sentry will be guided by Osborn and as much stealth and smarts as Adam has, he aint Norman in that aspect.

I think people might be underestimating his intelligence he may not be as smart as Norman but he has a team of tacticians to back him up. The team that BA has is tactically superior to Normans


Originally posted by tkitna

Better than Bullseye, Hood, Scourge, Ghost, Daken, etc,,? I dont think so. Once again, I think you forget the telepaths that Normen has at his disposal too.


How are any of those members better than my team? What members of those teams have actually been able to be on the run from the whole of SHIELD and have managed to outsmart Captain America? Punisher has actually manged to outsmart The Hood and a team of meta-human assasins. I could go on. The only real threat is the Ghost and I have a member of my team who can control machines with his mind.

Oh yeah I just found out who Black Abbot is. He was a member of the Deadly Dozen. Punisher took them on and managed to escape on his own. That doesn't help your case at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Abbott_(comics)#cite_note-3


The Black Abbott was later among the seventeen criminals, all murdered by the Scourge, to be resurrected by Hood using the power of Dormammu as part of a squad assembled to eliminate the Punisher. He battles the Punisher while posing as a member of the Avengers. He is badly injured when a bomb meant to kill the villains explodes; Letha orders Bird-Man to take him to safety.

Yes I have the issue I just can't be arsed to scan it.




Originally posted by tkitna

I dont know what you want me to say. Do I need to list the hundred or so characters you've given Norman access to and list what issues they could cause the limited list you gave BA? Tell me what you want. I think you have it in your head that the 5 or so characters you've given Adam are just so superior to the 100 or so characters that norman has and that just isnt so.

You haven't provided any feats even one of the members that you mentioned was deafeated by Punisher on his own while fighting a group of other supervillains. I think I'm being reasonable. He also doesn't have access to 100 meta-humans but obvoulsy he has access to 1000s of Hammer members. Look what Wolverine did in EOTS he actually had the whole superhuman community shitting their pants and killed loads of metas. Yes one character with the right circumstances can take on 100s.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Just because I didn't adress it to your satisfaction doesn't mean I didn't adress it.


Ok I'm going to try to be as civil as possible and I'm going to make an effort to understand the point you are trying to make. So lets just start again. Well ok heres what you posted:

Originally posted by -Pr-
No, you couldn't. Adam is a smart man, but he isn't nearly as built for the kind of stealthy work that Osborne is. Wolverine is also completely different.

You obvoulsy think Norman is vastly more intelligent than BA and thats fine but what you posted was a statement, am I correct? If we are debating how does making a statement further a discussion? The only thing that it does is that it make clear what your opinion in the debate is. Thats fine but don't you then need to provide a further explanation as to why you think he's vastly superior? To be fair what you did is quote cdtm but i'll adress that post later on.

Also bare in mind that eventhough Norman was the boss in Dark Reign part of why he was in charge was due to luck. Apart from that what other tactical feats does he have? We know that hes a succesful business man and that takes alot of intelligence but running your own country takes more.

Originally posted by -Pr-

Adam? Ask others opinions? That's not exactly likely, and even if it was, Osborn still has better resources.

Ok I have responded to this already. BA was a member of the JSA and only left because he felt they were not ruthless enough, considering that most of my team are assassins that won't be a problem. I think this a fair point to make. Also as I stated before having better resources does not give you an automatic win. The Hood had better resources than the Punisher he failed to kill him. SHIELD has better resources than Wolverine they had a nightmare of a time tracking him down.

Originally posted by -Pr-

and cdtm is right, btw.

Of course he's right but does what happened on Oolong island take precedence over what happened in the JSA? Does one feat take precedence over another? I have not read 52 but I do know that at some point Isis was killed and he went bonkers and I suspect thats what happened there. If thats the case thats not a very good example.

Ok I tried.

What the hell *bump*

Sentry kills BA. Punisher with a Skrull sniper rifle couldn't do it.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Sentry kills BA. Punisher with a Skrull sniper rifle couldn't do it.
No Sentry here.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
No Sentry here.

Nah Sentry is allowed, he was one of the Dark Avengers but this doesn't mean that Norman wins. The team have a good chance of winning.

You guys suck, this is the best thread evah!

Everyone thinks that Black Adam loses. Accept it and move on.

Black Adam would win this one. who remembers World War III

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080703152624/marvel_dc/images/8/8d/World_War_III_TP.jpg

This is stupid, BA wins easily in the first second.

Originally posted by complexbrother
Black Adam would win this one. who remembers World War III

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080703152624/marvel_dc/images/8/8d/World_War_III_TP.jpg No one

^

Originally posted by 753
No one



I agree

Originally posted by tkitna


I agree

Ok is that a concession then?

mm b-a loses, sorry

^ How?

b-a is not gonna hide, so norman just kills him with sentry right off the bat

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
b-a is not gonna hide, so norman just kills him with sentry right off the bat

What gives you the impression hes not going to hide? He has done stuff like that before.

Originally posted by Deadline
Ok is that a concession then?

Yes, I concede that nobody remembers WW3

Originally posted by Deadline
What gives you the impression hes not going to hide? He has done stuff like that before.
Black Adam isn't stupid, but at the same time he's rather direct. He'd sooner assault Avenger Tower directly than he would employ subterfuge or stealth.

That being said if the aim is just to get rid of Osborn then he takes a few out of ten. On the Dark Avengers the only real problem is Sentry, and while Black Adam can't kill him for good he can take him out long enough to tear Osborn's head off for the win.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Black Adam isn't stupid, but at the same time he's rather direct. He'd sooner assault Avenger Tower directly than he would employ subterfuge or stealth.

It depends on the situation. When he was a member of the JSA he formed a black ops team under their noses and used dirty underhanded tactics to take down Captain Marvel. Hes direct most of the time because he has the power to back it up when he needs to use stealth he'll use it. He also has spys in Khandaq.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

That being said if the aim is just to get rid of Osborn then he takes a few out of ten. On the Dark Avengers the only real problem is Sentry, and while Black Adam can't kill him for good he can take him out long enough to tear Osborn's head off for the win.

If he forumlates a plan with the other team members he can get a majority.