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Will the comics be any different? Let's do:

1. Pre-Crisis Hal Vs Pre-Crisis BA.
2. Currents

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/74433/1359537-hal_jordan_large.png

1. Hal
2. Split or Hal barely.

1.not sure
2.BA

I say Hal but I think in a comic Adam would win more often than not

Hal should take it.

I've got a question? What's the current durabilty of green lantern constructs? Can a BA, Captain Marvel or Superman type break through them?

1.PC BA was completely invunerable so BA ftw 10/10
2.BA 6/10

Pre crisis Black Adam couldn't be hurt but thats a huge no limit fallacy
I still think he takes scenario 1 and loses scenario 2

BA via death

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
BA via death

1. PC Black Adam 8/10.
2. Black Adam 7/10.

Hal

Have a question was that hal or kyle that mary marvel aka black mary ran through?

kyle
and mary was really amped

Originally posted by Warlord
kyle
and mary was really amped

I know she was amped but she was mainly amped with black adams power. Once he gave her his power that's when she became black mary.

Originally posted by carver9
I know she was amped but she was mainly amped with black adams power. Once he gave her his power that's when she became black mary.

she was much more.
when she dealed with Dona and Kyle she had absorbed energy from some magic users, Eclipso included

Originally posted by Warlord
she was much more.
when she dealed with Dona and Kyle she had absorbed energy from some magic users, Eclipso included

I thought that happened after her tussle with kyle and I don't remember eclipso giving her an amp... the only thing I remember eclipso doing was manipulate her which resulted in her meeting darkseid. It was mainly black adam powers that made her what she was.

Originally posted by carver9
I thought that happened after her tussle with kyle and I don't remember eclipso giving her an amp... the only thing I remember eclipso doing was manipulate her which resulted in her meeting darkseid. It was mainly black adam powers that made her what she was.

eclipso used her because somehow she could drain energy from magic users and planed to use her as a vessel. then eclipso stole the power she had stored and Darkseid gave Mary the power back before she beat Kyle and Dona. So by all accounts she was >> Adam

Hal all the way.

Ba.

1. Adam. no contest. Hal's constructs couldn't contain the Kryptonian criminals from the PC Phantom Zone story, and most of them were a good deal beneath Superman. (He was practically one shotting most of them)

And PC Superman himself easily defeated a villian using Hal's ring, then called his ring a "trinket".

When Adam and Superman fought, Superman claimed he wasn't even certain he could defeat Adam, and this was outside of Earth S, where he's weakened. He shouldn't have any more trouble with GL then Superman or any other Kryptonian would...


2. Edges more towards Hal. Well made GL constructs aren't so easily destroyed by Superman or characters on Supermans level anymore, and there's exotic powers like being able to warp time, or manipulate the mind.. (In fact, a incarnation of Hal Jordan as a child in The Last Will and Testiment of Hal Jordan" mind screwed Superman with Hal's ring, which is a tactic Hal himself developed. No reason this wouldn't work on Adam.)

^ ... why would preying on Superman's fear of Kryptonite work on Black Adam?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ ... why would preying on Superman's fear of Kryptonite work on Black Adam?

Been awhile since I read the story, but I thought Supes fear of failing to save everyone he loved was used against him.

Even if not, the point is Hal can mind screw Superman, who has a rogues gallery including telepaths like Milton Fine Brainiac, and has several examples of Martian Manhunter commenting on his mental fortitude (Meaning the burden of proof rests on proving Adam has greater mental defenses then Superman does), not that he'd use the same specific fears against Adam.

is bfr on?

Originally posted by cdtm
Been awhile since I read the story, but I thought Supes fear of failing to save everyone he loved was used against him. Yes. It's been awhile since you read the story.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes. It's been awhile since you read the story.

No need to be snide about it. Especially considering it's a minor lapse. It happens.

The salient point isn't how Hal mindscrew's Adam, but whether he can mindscrew Adam.

^ I'm pretty sure all you can hope to do to Adam's mind is to increase his rage.

Does the Marvel family/Adam need to breath post crisis? I know they didn't particularly need to PC.

Anyone know of any examples?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
^ I'm pretty sure all you can hope to do to Adam's mind is to increase his rage.

He could attempt a mind shutdown. Sinestro did this to an inexperienced Hector Hammond, and the first half of World War III had Martian Manhunter claiming he was allowing Adam the luxury of thought, which enabled Adam to resist him and break free. It's basically PIS MM didn't simply shut his mind down under Ostrander, who wrote the second half of World War III and was more famaliar with MM's capabilities then Champagne in the first half.

And there's the fact Adam had Brainwave Jr. force himself and Billy to say their magic word. By and large, I'm not aware of Adam or Marvel having many feats of mental resistance.

Originally posted by cdtm
1. Adam. no contest. Hal's constructs couldn't contain the Kryptonian criminals from the PC Phantom Zone story, and most of them were a good deal beneath Superman. (He was practically one shotting most of them)

And PC Superman himself easily defeated a villian using Hal's ring, then called his ring a "trinket".

When Adam and Superman fought, Superman claimed he wasn't even certain he could defeat Adam, and this was outside of Earth S, where he's weakened. He shouldn't have any more trouble with GL then Superman or any other Kryptonian would...


2. Edges more towards Hal. Well made GL constructs aren't so easily destroyed by Superman or characters on Supermans level anymore, and there's exotic powers like being able to warp time, or manipulate the mind.. (In fact, a incarnation of Hal Jordan as a child in The Last Will and Testiment of Hal Jordan" mind screwed Superman with Hal's ring, which is a tactic Hal himself developed. No reason this wouldn't work on Adam.)

1. Hal can manipulate and stop time.

^ When he's in a near-death state. Darn useful right thar.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ When he's in a near-death state. Darn useful right thar. He can do u when he's not in a near-death state as well. Darn useful right thar again.

^ Can I has teh scans plz?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ When he's in a near-death state. Darn useful right thar.

Guy folded over time to bring The Shark back to life, and claimed it's a trick Hal taught him.

^ Pre-Crisis feat. No thanks.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Pre-Crisis feat. No thanks.

Technically, it's right on the line, happening during the Crisis event.

Not certain where the line for GL's starts from there and post crisis canon. (For purposes of power levels and feat citing and such..)

For what it's worth, Gardner was instated as a full time GL during that time, and I believe his history wasn't revised into the post crisis, unlike Supermans..

Pre Crisis is valid for Lanterns.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Pre-Crisis feat. No thanks.

We're using both PC and Post Hal and Adam.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0


shrug

Originally posted by -Pr-
Pre Crisis is valid for Lanterns. Except for them not showing that level of power or in some cases abilities, anymore.

Originally posted by Mindset
Except for them not showing that level of power or in some cases abilities, anymore.

That doesn't disallow all feats, though.

and some of the Lanterns were still shown to still be pretty powerful...

Originally posted by Mindset
Except for them not showing that level of power or in some cases abilities, anymore.

Going that route would make SS, Thor, Hulk, etc. not able to do anything that they have done in the far past if they haven't been doing it in modern times of comics.

I believe most here don't go that route though.

IMO, Marvel has it pre-crisis like days too. When characters were doing silly powerful stuff here and there. Just look at Hulk.

Originally posted by -Pr-
That doesn't disallow all feats, though.

and some of the Lanterns were still shown to still be pretty powerful... It disallows one time feats that never happened again, which is what was being used.

Originally posted by Mindset
It disallows one time feats that never happened again, which is what was being used.

It depends on the feat, tbh...

I agree, one time feats that happened decades ago and never happened again are disallowed.

I'm pretty much against using any feats before 1990. Except for specific characters who died before 1990/haven't been shown after 1990 or when a thread calls for a certain character like Pre-Retcon Beyonder, Pre-Crisis Superman, etc.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
We're using both PC and Post Hal and Adam. Forgot. Still OOC for Hal Jordan. I'll give it it's due, 1/100 fights. Doesn't affect the other 99. Originally posted by h1a8
Going that route would make SS, Thor, Hulk, etc. not able to do anything that they have done in the far past if they haven't been doing it in modern times of comics.

I believe most here don't go that route though.

IMO, Marvel has it pre-crisis like days too. When characters were doing silly powerful stuff here and there. Just look at Hulk. Silver Surfer, Thor and Hulk were far weaker in the 60s and 70s and early 80s. Far weaker. I don't know why people keep trying to act like they weren't.

There's a good reason most people don't go that route.

Thor used super-breath and ran superfast in a park in the 60s. That's about it. Thor also used to worry about falling off buildings all the way through the 80s. Surfer time-traveled alot more in the 70s. That's about it. Surfer also never made blackholes or evolved entire planets all the way through the mid 90s. Hulk once changed direction in mid-air in the 60s. That's about it. Hulk never took a single step and broke Manhattan or took 100 trillion ton punches to the gut with little pause or evolved past the need to breathe in space.

The notion that there's some sort of inherent hypocrisy going on when pre-Crisis notions aren't applied to Marvel characters is almost wholly baseless.

What was out of character for Adam or Hal?

^ Hal devolving Black Adam with time manipulation ala Guy Gardner with the Shark is OOC.

He certainly could manipulate him somehow, but I doubt it will work. He did manipulate Shaggy Man, a whole town, a plant god, etc... So, it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Though, SHAZAM had a hard time manipulating Black Adam and failed. I don't see Hal on SHAZAM's level.

Originally posted by Badabing
I'm pretty much against using any feats before 1990. Except for specific characters who died before 1990/haven't been shown after 1990 or when a thread calls for a certain character like Pre-Retcon Beyonder, Pre-Crisis Superman, etc.

I agree with this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Forgot. Still OOC for Hal Jordan. I'll give it it's due, 1/100 fights. Doesn't affect the other 99. Silver Surfer, Thor and Hulk were far weaker in the 60s and 70s and early 80s. Far weaker. I don't know why people keep trying to act like they weren't.

There's a good reason most people don't go that route.

Thor used super-breath and ran superfast in a park in the 60s. That's about it. Thor also used to worry about falling off buildings all the way through the 80s. Surfer time-traveled alot more in the 70s. That's about it. Surfer also never made blackholes or evolved entire planets all the way through the mid 90s. Hulk once changed direction in mid-air in the 60s. That's about it. Hulk never took a single step and broke Manhattan or took 100 trillion ton punches to the gut with little pause or evolved past the need to breathe in space.

The notion that there's some sort of inherent hypocrisy going on when pre-Crisis notions aren't applied to Marvel characters is almost wholly baseless. No. Most people here use ALL feats in continuity for a character. Are you a member here or someone who hacked into a member's account. There has been literally thousands of debates where members were using feats from the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

You are referring to averages. I agree that many characters (not all) are more powerful ON AVERAGE than in those old times. But character's best feats are found in those times. That is why members refer back to them to debate here to support there character.

Hulk's best feats are before 1990 as well as Thor's and many others. This is a well know fact. If not, then why do so many people refer back to them in heated debates?

Lastly, more powerful wasn't my only point. Also, in the far past is where one can find the most rare exotic feats of a character. Thor did some very exotic sh!t in the past that he hasn't remotely done in recent times.

Originally posted by h1a8
No. Most people here use ALL feats in continuity for a character. Are you a member here or someone who hacked into a member's account. There has been literally thousands of debates where members were using feats from the 60s, 70s, and 80s. When's the last time people used a 60s and 70s feats for Thor, Hulk or Surfer? And most people argue post-Annihilation Surfer and post-World War Hulk Hulk. That's even post-90s! Originally posted by h1a8
You are referring to averages. I agree that many characters (not all) are more powerful ON AVERAGE than in those old times. But character's best feats are found in those times. That is why members refer back to them to debate here to support there character.No. Thor's, Surfer's and Hulk's best feats were not from those times. People only go back that far for pre-Crisis schlock because they want to inflate their favorite DC character. Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk's best feats are before 1990 as well as Thor's and many others. This is a well know fact. If not, then why do so many people refer back to them in heated debates?

Lastly, more powerful wasn't my only point. Also, in the far past is where one can find the most rare exotic feats of a character. Thor did some very exotic sh!t in the past that he hasn't remotely done in recent times. You not reading the characters you're mischaracterizing now doesn't justify the mischaracterizing. Hulk never beat Thor so bad before the 90s. Hulk never evolved past breathing before the 90s. Hulk never healed from a near-skeletal state before the 90s. Hulk never tore half his god damn head off and healed it before the 90s. Hulk never threatened a continental coastline with footsteps before the 90s. Thor never one-shotted Durok w/o Mjolnir before the 90s. Thor never killed Mangog before the 90s. Thor never romped Warlock and Surfer before the 90s. Thor never cancelled out a planet-busting beam with storms before the 90s. Thor never stripped Juggernaut's invincibility enchantment with ease before the 90s.

And where are you trying to draw a line anyway? Mjolnir absorbing the galaxy-busting Null-Bomb energies? Late 1989. Unfusing himself out of the ground? 90s. Bestowing his might onto Masterson? 90s. Last time he froze time? 90s. Last time he tried to strip immortality? 90s.

NOBODY argues Thor uses super-breath. Nobody argues Thor shrinks people into glass balls. Nobody argues Thor stops a 1/5th universe destroying blast.

EVERYBODY argues Hal uses time-devolve. Everybody argues Hal shrinks Shaggy Man. Everybody argues Hal can stop Big Bang.

Seriously. Is it too much to ask you to stop being crybabies about it? If you can't keep yourselves from being hypocritical, at least stop being such crybabies over it.

^

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
When's the last time people used a 60s and 70s feats for Thor, Hulk or Surfer? And most people argue post-Annihilation Surfer and post-World War Hulk Hulk. That's even post-90s! No dude. Stop hacking people's accounts. Almost every fan of a Marvel character here has used a pre 1990 feat for their character. From Hulk destroying the asteroid, to bracing a mountain, to Thor lifting Midgard Serpent, to etc. I'm a old member here and argued many a time against people who said I can't use PC Superman's feats and that old Marvel feats were fair game because it is still in continuity.


No. Thor's, Surfer's and Hulk's best feats were not from those times. People only go back that far for pre-Crisis schlock because they want to inflate their favorite DC character. This is the dumbest thing you ever said. Both Thor's and Hulk's best quantifiable feats of strength lie before 1990. Those feats dwarf ANYTHING they have done afterwards. I dare you to put your foot in your mouth and show me otherwise.


Who beats who doesn't prove where are the better feats. Dude learn comprehension. I already said that I'm not arguing who is more powerful but where are a character's BEST FEATS found. Those strength feats you named are insects to their best feats of strength found before 1990.

You still are arguing the point that today's characters are more powerful on average. I agree with that (for most characters). Again, I'm saying that a character's BEST and most exotic feats are usually found before 1990. More exotic is rather an opinion though. It means most strange or rare feat you would never imaging a character being able to do.

Yes late 1989 is pre 1990. My point.

The others are utter garbage compared to what he's done before 1990. You listed some B/C rated exotic feats. More A ones are before 1990.

NOBODY argues Thor uses super-breath. Nobody argues Thor shrinks people into glass balls. Nobody argues Thor stops a 1/5th universe destroying blast. You must be blind or new here then. Because I heard it all. From taking away people's power, to putting people to sleep, to taking souls, to stopping a 1/5th universe blast (before 1990), to matter manipulation, to super hearing, to wiping memory, to time travel, to taking away magnetic fields, to pointing and BFRing from a blast, etc.
I didn't claim what one should argue. Personally, I try to use current feats as much as possible. But considering so many people who I debate like to dig into the archives as it is fair game makes me think that sometimes I'm entitled too. Why is the first time someone who does this for D.C. there is a problem? That my friend is hypocritical. Where were you all these years when I was arguing against people who did that to me (they knew I couldn't use PC feats for D.C.)? Yet you stand strong when someone uses a pre 1990 it for the first time in D.C.? Hmmmm.

If you are not arguing that them I'm sorry. I misunderstood you.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Hal devolving Black Adam with time manipulation ala Guy Gardner with the Shark is OOC.
Plus would time manipulation even work on an immortal magical construct like BA's body?

I've already stated that it probably wouldn't work. Shadow Thief tried to transmute Captain Marvel. It didn't work. BA in his earlier origins, SHAZAM tried to mess with him, yet it didn't work.

Though Hal did convert some of the JLA into pure energy, so you never know what his ring will do.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
He certainly could manipulate him somehow, but I doubt it will work. He did manipulate Shaggy Man, a whole town, a plant god, etc... So, it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Though, SHAZAM had a hard time manipulating Black Adam and failed. I don't see Hal on SHAZAM's level.

For what it's worth, a mook GL also manipulated the essence of Swamp Thing. Actually bottled it up in a construct.

Yes, it's not a Hal feat, but it wasn't portrayed as requiring special knowledge or skill, or beyond any competant GL.

Originally posted by h1a8
No dude. Stop hacking people's accounts. Almost every fan of a Marvel character here has used a pre 1990 feat for their character. From Hulk destroying the asteroid, to bracing a mountain, to Thor lifting Midgard Serpent, to etc. I'm a old member here and argued many a time against people who said I can't use PC Superman's feats and that old Marvel feats were fair game because it is still in continuity.

This is the dumbest thing you ever said. Both Thor's and Hulk's best quantifiable feats of strength lie before 1990. Those feats dwarf ANYTHING they have done afterwards. I dare you to put your foot in your mouth and show me otherwise.I dare you to show me why something from the 1980s of Marvel, where there isn't a company-wide retcon of entire histories makes that feat just as unusable as something from the 1930s-60s of DC.

Other than the crybaby attitude. And stop moving the goalpost. Now your focus is only on the absolute highest showings of strength? I already pointed you towards the absolute highest showings of overall power, post-00s. And your supposed main beef was about one-time exotic one-shot powers.

Either you can't focus your arguments or you're trying to deflect from your own butt-hurt. Originally posted by h1a8
Who beats who doesn't prove where are the better feats. Dude learn comprehension. I already said that I'm not arguing who is more powerful but where are a character's BEST FEATS found. Those strength feats you named are insects to their best feats of strength found before 1990.

You still are arguing the point that today's characters are more powerful on average. I agree with that (for most characters). Again, I'm saying that a character's BEST and most exotic feats are usually found before 1990. More exotic is rather an opinion though. It means most strange or rare feat you would never imaging a character being able to do.More deflection. Hulk holding back and nearly breaking the continental coastline with a footstep is not an insect strength feat compared to Secret Wars. Hulk struggled to brace a 50 billion ton mountain? He JUST took a 100 trillion ton punch to the gut to nearly NO EFFECT. Originally posted by h1a8
Yes late 1989 is pre 1990. My point.

The others are utter garbage compared to what he's done before 1990. You listed some B/C rated exotic feats. More A ones are before 1990. Acting like January of 1990 is this unassailable crystal-sheen era of pure unquestionableness for feats as opposed to September of 1989 (yes, that's when Thor absorbed the Galaxy-ending Null Bomb's energies) is idiotic. It isn't just arbitrary. It's idiotic. Before you graced us with your position, the arguments being peppered across the forums were that anything pre-1980s was unusable. Then all the butt-hurt fans realized that a crapload of feats they wanted retconned from Marvel were actually from the 1980s. So the goal-post got moved to the 1990s.

But now it's gotten so bad that you schnooks don't even realize this: you don't argue that a DC characters' post-Crisis (i.e., post-1986) feats must now be banished from being cited because its pre-1990. So how did the veracity of Marvel characters' post-1986-1990 feats (WHEN THERE WAS NO CRISIS) even get questioned? Originally posted by h1a8
You must be blind or new here then. Because I heard it all. From taking away people's power, to putting people to sleep, to taking souls, to stopping a 1/5th universe blast (before 1990), to matter manipulation, to super hearing, to wiping memory, to time travel, to taking away magnetic fields, to pointing and BFRing from a blast, etc.Since when have people argued that Thor strips Hal's or Superman's powers? Or put Hal or Superman to sleep? Thor used the soul-suck in the 90s, genius. Who argues that Thor can't be stopped without a 1/5th universe+ destroying blast? Thor's used matter manipulation in the 90s, genius. Who argues that Thor uses super hearing to win fights? Who argues that Thor wipes the memory of people? Who argues that Thor time travels? Thor can manipulate energy, genius, including magnetism. Thor BFRs sh1t, more than any other character, what exactly is your issue? Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't claim what one should argue. Personally, I try to use current feats as much as possible. But considering so many people who I debate like to dig into the archives as it is fair game makes me think that sometimes I'm entitled too. Why is the first time someone who does this for D.C. there is a problem? That my friend is hypocritical. Where were you all these years when I was arguing against people who did that to me (they knew I couldn't use PC feats for D.C.)? Yet you stand strong when someone uses a pre 1990 it for the first time in D.C.? Hmmmm.

If you are not arguing that them I'm sorry. I misunderstood you. That sh1t got retconned. This isn't about digging around for feats. You're digging around for feats that didn't happen. You cry about not being able to use a pre-Crisis feat where Hal transmutes a nuclear bomb into confetti from March 1960 and then turn around and try to act like Thor never godblasted Juggernaut backwards in December 1989.

Do you not see how stucking fupid that is? What in your mind, other than the overwhelmingly needless butt-hurt, to clouded your logic to such a degree that you lumped those two things together and acted like we're being the hypocrites?

Originally posted by cdtm
For what it's worth, a mook GL also manipulated the essence of Swamp Thing. Actually bottled it up in a construct.

Yes, it's not a Hal feat, but it wasn't portrayed as requiring special knowledge or skill, or beyond any competant GL.

Back in those days, a rookie GL teleported and opened/closed black holes like it was nothing.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I dare you to show me why something from the 1980s of Marvel, where there isn't a company-wide retcon of entire histories makes that feat just as unusable as something from the 1930s-60s of DC.


Personally, I'm all for separating things like, say, 60's-70's Superman from 80's Superman.

Yeah, Marvel doesn't have an actual event retconning much of their history, so you can't really argue Marvels history should be held to the same line. It's simply not a line that exists..

I do agree there's reasons on a case by case basis in both companies to say "Yeah, this isn't relevant anymore" though. Say, when Odin was portrayed as above Big G, when that's clearly not the case anymore. (On the flipside, do you make a hard line case against pre crisis feats, even when a character history wasn't noticeably affected by the event, or has an unaltered history that extends into the pre crisis,, and continued into the modern era?)

And for the record, I wouldn't discount Thor pushing back Juggernaut with the godblast.

Originally posted by cdtm
(On the flipside, do you make a hard line case against pre crisis feats, even when a character history wasn't noticeably affected by the event, or has an unaltered history that extends into the pre crisis,, and continued into the modern era?) Yes. Because the most applicable character you can think of, Kal-L, isn't accidentally sneezing away galaxies.

Let's not miss the forest for the trees.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Yes. Because the most applicable character you can think of, Kal-L, isn't accidentally sneezing away galaxies.

Let's not miss the forest for the trees.

He wasn't sneezing away galaxies in the 80's either, though.

And how about the New Gods? Canonically speaking, they're supposed to have been exempt from the effects of the Crisis.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I dare you to show me why something from the 1980s of Marvel, where there isn't a company-wide retcon of entire histories makes that feat just as unusable as something from the 1930s-60s of DC. I didn't claim it should or shouldn't be usable. The GL were not retconned. So using feats from the 60s and 70s is the same as using a Marvel character's feats from the 60s and 70s. No one talks about Marvel fans who do that. But when D.C. fans do it validly for the GL people want to complain.
I'm not crying. I'm just showing the hypocrisy here. For years people use old feats and no one really said anything about it, because it's canon. Well, the GL are still canon too. Why cry when someone uses their PC feats when you used Marvel old feats? My argument ALL the time was the location of the best feats and not who is more powerful on average. You see my first quote on you agreed to your notion. Yet you continue to argue a point I agreed on from jump street. Why? The point of this debate is to show that most (if not all) members at one point have went back and supported a character with an old feat. Let's not get sidetracked here; for that is what this debate is about.

Again insects feats you are posting. Destroying the Asteroid twice the size of Earth dwarfs any quantifiable feat Hulk has ever done. The secret wars thing is also an insect to that. Thor lifting Midgard Serpent dwarfs any quantifiable feat he has done.
I'm not referring to the Galaxy feat but the 1/5 universe feat which occurred in the 80s.

I don't mind only using feats post 1990. I just don't like when others are allowed to use Marvel pre 1990 feats and others can't for the GL (which PC feats are still canon). Either allow both or disallow both. My main point is to show the hypocrisy of some (or a) marvel fan here who once used such old feats and now is crying when someone does so for the GLs.
Everyone use to argue that (the time travel thing was a mistake still brought up by them, they forgot Thor lost the power). Where you been dude? Of course they don't argue it as much now but they have. In a forum debate a member claimed Thor can't be snuck up on bc he has super hearing (that is the truth I kid you not). Another member said he can put someone to sleep or take away his powers like he did Hyperion to support their debate. Where have you been? Another member claimed he can take away Superman's or DD's soul (I forgot which one) and posted a scan from before 1990. I don't care if Thor also did it after 1990 as it still is rare and they showed a pre 1990 scan. The more you post the more I believe someone hacked your account. The mere nerve to even insinuate that no one has argued that sh!t before. I went through hell debating against those people. Soijer (if I'm not mistaken) was one of the members who I most remembered (he was a good debater) even argued that sh!t against me.

The GL didn't get retconned. That's the only PC feats I use. I don't dare use anyone else's PC feats as I know they aren't valid. I think you confusing me with others. I never cry when someone uses old marvel feats (unless they are PIS). I except a lot of marvel's old feats. I have no problem with them. I'm just looking for fairness that's all. That mean's when the GLs pop up then no one should cry.
You misunderstood me.

Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't claim it should or shouldn't be usable. The GL were not retconned. So using feats from the 60s and 70s is the same as using a Marvel character's feats from the 60s and 70s. No one talks about Marvel fans who do that. But when D.C. fans do it validly for the GL people want to complain.People aren't using feats from the 50s, 60s and 70s except for GL fans. It isn't valid for GLs because whatever arguments you want to make about them not being affected is horsecrap. Kal-L wasn't "affected" by the Crisis and he isn't sneezing away galaxies. Get over the fact that GLs are not nearly as powerful as they were back in the 50s, 60s and 70s. You don't like the past 30 years of GL comics? Don't read them. Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not crying. I'm just showing the hypocrisy here. For years people use old feats and no one really said anything about it, because it's canon. Well, the GL are still canon too. Why cry when someone uses their PC feats when you used Marvel old feats? My argument ALL the time was the location of the best feats and not who is more powerful on average. You see my first quote on you agreed to your notion. Yet you continue to argue a point I agreed on from jump street. Why? The point of this debate is to show that most (if not all) members at one point have went back and supported a character with an old feat. Let's not get sidetracked here; for that is what this debate is about.You are spewing petulance that is either hypocritical or uneducated. Pre-Crisis feats =/= old Marvel feats. There's a god famn ducking difference that you keep deflecting from: the Crisis retconned sh1t away. The 1980s of Marvel wasn't retconned away, much less the 70s or even 60s. Originally posted by h1a8
Again insects feats you are posting. Destroying the Asteroid twice the size of Earth dwarfs any quantifiable feat Hulk has ever done. The secret wars thing is also an insect to that. Thor lifting Midgard Serpent dwarfs any quantifiable feat he has done.

I'm not referring to the Galaxy feat but the 1/5 universe feat which occurred in the 80s. Hulk destroying the asteroid twice the size of Earth was in Marvel Comics Presents #52. Published June 1990. EDUCATE YOURSELF. How many feats have you had to step back from in this thread alone with your own self-defeating, "Oooh... 90s are so good, only 90s stuff counts, I'd let a 90s feat boink my butt" rationale. And stop trying to act like this entire discussion revolves around strength. You're moving the goal-posts. Switching to whining about exotic one-time powers, to whining about character's overall power, to whining about feats of strength, and retreating to each category when arguments don't turn your way is only a reflection of the shoddy rationalizations you keep trying to make.

And NOBODY argues that Thor can't be defeated without a 1/5th universe+ destroying blast. Stop being such a crybaby over it being canon and pre-Crisis feats not being canon. They have NOTHING to do with each other.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't mind only using feats post 1990. I just don't like when others are allowed to use Marvel pre 1990 feats and others can't for the GL (which PC feats are still canon). Either allow both or disallow both. My main point is to show the hypocrisy of some (or a) marvel fan here who once used such old feats and now is crying when someone does so for the GLs.Go make a thread that limits feats to the 90s then. This thread isn't it. Moreover, stop trying to act like it's the # of years that measure what's an appropriate feat or not. This is the same tired, insipid, sh1tty straw-manning deflection from the fact that this doesn't have to do with years. It has to do with the Crisis. The Crisis was a retcon. It is the most singularly hard and expansive example of a retcon there is, or ever was.

You don't like it? Don't read DC comics. GL feats pre-Crisis aren't canon for the same reasons the rest of DC got retconned: the adventures didn't happen or were retold, the feats were stupid and sh1tty, and GLs were already undergoing a massive trend towards diminishing their powers. You don't think the GLs were affected at all by the Crisis? I think you're a hypocrite or an idiot. Nobody reading the past 30 years of GL comics should have that opinion and whining about how GLs remember the Crisis doesn't change how Kal-L remembered it also and he ain't pre-Crisis levels. Far from it. No explanation. Just fact. And nobody gives two sh1ts about it because Kal-L isn't their favorite character. They only give a sh1t about Superman and GLs because they're not half as powerful as they'd like em to be. Y'know what? Get over it. Your transparent motives =/= cogent reasoning. Originally posted by h1a8
Everyone use to argue that (the time travel thing was a mistake still brought up by them, they forgot Thor lost the power). Where you been dude? Of course they don't argue it as much now but they have. In a forum debate a member claimed Thor can't be snuck up on bc he has super hearing (that is the truth I kid you not). Another member said he can put someone to sleep or take away his powers like he did Hyperion to support their debate. Where have you been? Another member claimed he can take away Superman's or DD's soul (I forgot which one) and posted a scan from before 1990. I don't care if Thor also did it after 1990 as it still is rare and they showed a pre 1990 scan. The more you post the more I believe someone hacked your account. The mere nerve to even insinuate that no one has argued that sh!t before. I went through hell debating against those people. Soijer (if I'm not mistaken) was one of the members who I most remembered (he was a good debater) even argued that sh!t against me.Nobody argues Thor time travels anymore. Don't bring up fake arguments. When one idiot says Thor hypnotizes a person in the 1980s, you criticize that person for using a one-time unreliable feat. You don't b1tch about it, then turn around and embrace it so you can surreptitiously reverse-justify your desire to bring up one-time feats from the pre-Crisis DC 1960s that got retconned, then continue b1tching about a 1989 Marvel feat. And Thor used the soul suck in the 90s. He never used it before the 90s. EDUCATE YOURSELF. Originally posted by h1a8
The GL didn't get retconned. That's the only PC feats I use. I don't dare use anyone else's PC feats as I know they aren't valid. I think you confusing me with others. I never cry when someone uses old marvel feats (unless they are PIS). I except a lot of marvel's old feats. I have no problem with them. I'm just looking for fairness that's all. That mean's when the GLs pop up then no one should cry.

You misunderstood me. This isn't fairness. This is people trying to avoid that the Crisis retconned sh1t away. 1980s Marvel feats =/= Crisis retcon. It's not fair to treat them the same way. It's idiotic. Exotic one-time unreliable powers =/= Crisis retcon. It's not fair to treat them the same way. It's idiotic. And you have a separate basis to argue against them... that they're exotic one-time unreliable powers. I treat someone arguing Superman's T-Vo matters as much as someone argues Thor uses super-breath. And the objectionality of it has nothing to do with the time-period.

I understand you just fine. Your problem isn't with one-time exotic feats or with feats from the 60s-80s. Your problem is that your favorite characters aren't as powerful as they used to be. One has nothing to do with the other. Stop trying to conflate them.

Guys, the personal stuff has to stop. Now.

Also: GL pre crisis events are canon to GLs. A lot of the feats on the other hand aren't usable, but that doesn't preclude all feats, assuming people want to even go back that far.

^ Your definition of "canonicity" doesn't inflate the usability of any pre-Crisis feats. Particularly when modern retellings utterly retcon pre-Crisis events, e.g., Geoff Johns' Green Lantern: Origins storyline about the first meetings between Hal and Sinestro.

Fact remains: this definition of "canonicity" by virtue of memories and/or them being "unaffected by Crisis" doesn't change what's on-panel now. They're not anywhere near as powerful or versatile as they were pre-Crisis. This notion is epitomized poignantly by Kal-L if you can't recognize that the 30 past years of GL comics slam that point home as well.

That just goes to the logic underlying the entire position. It has nothing to do with the transparent motivations or uneducated blase attitude towards whether Thor, Surfer and Hulk were more powerful pre-1990s or not.

On that last nonsensical point, h1a8, we presently stand at the notion that people can't talk about Thor lifting the World Serpent or containing a 1/5th universe-destroying blast. Well golly, guess all those pro-Thor arguments that Thor can never be defeated by less than planetary weight strength or less than 1/5th universe busting blasts shouldn't be used anymore.

That's it? That was your problem the entire time? I'll gladly never use those two arguments as long as you don't bring up pre-Crisis schlock. Deal?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Your definition of "canonicity" doesn't inflate the usability of any pre-Crisis feats. Particularly when modern retellings utterly retcon pre-Crisis events, e.g., Geoff Johns' Green Lantern: Origins storyline about the first meetings between Hal and Sinestro.

Fact remains: this definition of "canonicity" by virtue of memories and/or them being "unaffected by Crisis" doesn't change what's on-panel now. They're not anywhere near as powerful or versatile as they were pre-Crisis. This notion is epitomized poignantly by Kal-L if you can't recognize that the 30 past years of GL comics slam that point home as well.

That just goes to the logic underlying the entire position. It has nothing to do with the transparent motivations or uneducated blase attitude towards whether Thor, Surfer and Hulk were more powerful pre-1990s or not.

On that last nonsensical point, h1a8, we presently stand at the notion that people can't talk about Thor lifting the World Serpent or containing a 1/5th universe-destroying blast. Well golly, guess all those pro-Thor arguments that Thor can never be defeated by less than planetary weight strength or less than 1/5th universe busting blasts shouldn't be used anymore.

That's it? That was your problem the entire time? I'll gladly never use those two arguments as long as you don't bring up pre-Crisis schlock. Deal?

they don't need to be inflated or anything of the sort. if people wish to use them and they are in the realm of the current incarnation of the character, they're allowed to be used (even though i wouldn't recommend it).

i didn't say ALL feats were allowed, did i?

we both know that the crisis itself had nothing to do with power levels seemingly decreasing.

Originally posted by -Pr-


i didn't say ALL feats were allowed, did i?

you can't pick and choose as you please...

Originally posted by Starscream M
you can't pick and choose as you please...

facepalm

if the feat is within the current range of the character and happened in a canon comic, then it's allowed. it's kind of how the forum works.

Originally posted by -Pr-
facepalm

if the feat is within the current range of the character and happened in a canon comic, then it's allowed. it's kind of how the forum works. yeah, but 'within range' is kinda subjective.

Originally posted by Starscream M
yeah, but 'within range' is kinda subjective.

Hence why we go by averages.

Originally posted by -Pr-
we both know that the crisis itself had nothing to do with power levels seemingly decreasing. You may believe that. I can't ignore the suspicious (if not conspicuous) coincidence that every other character across the board went though power levels decreasing as a direct result of, or immediately following, the Crisis.

And we both know the Crisis is the exact reason that GLs don't go gallivanting around in time travel adventures.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
People aren't using feats from the 50s, 60s and 70s except for GL fans. It isn't valid for GLs because whatever arguments you want to make about them not being affected is horsecrap. Kal-L wasn't "affected" by the Crisis and he isn't sneezing away galaxies. Get over the fact that GLs are not nearly as powerful as they were back in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Hulk is not busting asteroids twice the size of Earth nowadays either, yet people has used them. Where were you went people were using them? Do I smell hypocrite?
Why you keep saying that. You are wrong. The GLs weren't retconned away. They are the only beings I'm talking about in D.C. (not D.C. as a whole). Good job but the principle of my point still stands (we are even now, I caught you in a falsehood and you caught me with an inaccuracy). 1990 is still close enough to the 80s to be relevant. The principle still stands as characters best feats are found before the 90s (The actual year 1990 is just arguing semantics).

No. I still claim more exotic one time feats were before 1990. I still claim that a character's best quantifiable feats are found before (or around) 1990. I never made any claims about a character's overall power, that was all you dude. Where did I switch at?


Lies. Many Thor fans have argued it. You were either under a rock when it happened, forgot, are lying, or hacked into someone account and simply don't know.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Go make a thread that limits feats to the 90s then. This thread isn't it. Moreover, stop trying to act like it's the # of years that measure what's an appropriate feat or not. This is the same tired, insipid, sh1tty straw-manning deflection from the fact that this doesn't have to do with years. It has to do with the Crisis. The Crisis was a retcon. It is the most singularly hard and expansive example of a retcon there is, or ever was.

You don't like it? Don't read DC comics. GL feats pre-Crisis aren't canon for the same reasons the rest of DC got retconned: the adventures didn't happen or were retold, the feats were stupid and sh1tty, and GLs were already undergoing a massive trend towards diminishing their powers. You don't think the GLs were affected at all by the Crisis? Again all I'm arguing is the GL and not D.C. as a whole. Your statement about being retconned is irrelevant. A part time idiot is not an idiot, otherwise every human would be an idiot. Trust me, I'm not an idiot ALL the time. I'm not an hypocrite either. I'm willing to be fair. Don't use 70s 80s feats against me and then tell me I can't for the GL.
I don't know what you are referring to with the Kal L thing but it is irrelevent to my argument. I'm arguing that the same people who once argued old Marvel feats are crying about when others are arguing old GL feats.
Sneezing galaxies away is totally different than manipulating time.

Like you said no one is arguing Kal EL sneezing galaxies away but some argue Hulk busting asteroids and GL manipulating time. Which is worst busting an asteroid twice the size of Earth or manipulating time (where many characters past and present can do)?
I think you need to get your facts straight. Thor manipulated souls before 1990. Doesn't matter as proof wouldn't change your bias view in this argument. So if you want to see the proof you got to give me some incentive. Otherwise, I'm not going to waste my. I believed it as truth by the scan (was a newbie). Someone later bust them out saying that he doesn't have the power anymore. Who cares if they are idiots, Soijer wasn't an idiot. He was one of the best posters here at one time yet he sometimes argued OLD feats (some one time ones too).
Again the GL wasn't retconned the same as Marvel as a whole not being retconned. This renders what you said irrelevant.
I don't care about who is more powerful on average. I go by feats. Feats are either valid, PIS (invalid), or non canon (invalid). People use and post singular feats to support their character. They don't post an entire character's history and talk about averages.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You may believe that. I can't ignore the suspicious (if not conspicuous) coincidence that every other character across the board went though power levels decreasing as a direct result of, or immediately following, the Crisis.

And we both know the Crisis is the exact reason that GLs don't go gallivanting around in time travel adventures.

i don't believe it is. i believe the reason they don't is the same reason superman isn't sneezing out galaxies or surfer isn't exploding solar systems or thor isn't absorbing galaxies worth of energy.

characters were already being depowered before the crisis. i think i even saw you mentioning it in another thread recently.

pretending kal-l is the rule rather than the exception seems a bit off, imo.

as far as the point goes and to what badabing said, if people really want us to unilaterally decide that no feats prior to 1990 can be used, i honestly don't know what'll happen.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't believe it is. i believe the reason they don't is the same reason superman isn't sneezing out galaxies or surfer isn't exploding solar systems or thor isn't absorbing galaxies worth of energy.

characters were already being depowered before the crisis. i think i even saw you mentioning it in another thread recently.

pretending kal-l is the rule rather than the exception seems a bit off, imo.

as far as the point goes and to what badabing said, if people really want us to unilaterally decide that no feats prior to 1990 can be used, i honestly don't know what'll happen. Thor absorbed the Null Bomb's energy in the 90s. Hulk busted the asteroid in the 90s.

How does this fact make 60s and 70s feats more relevant? That specifically suggests that older pre-Crisis feats are irrelevant, not the reverse.

Pretending GLs are the exception to the rule seems way off to me. We've had this conversation before. Just GLs? Even though they share the same diminishment, extended near 30 years, that the rest of the DC universe did, purposefully or not, which is ALSO shared by Kal-L AND at least one of their abilities was explicitly affected by the Crisis on-panel?

I laff @ how the bar got moved from pre-1980s to pre-1990s. At this point, you're now dismissing DC's post-Crisis 1986-1990 history and all you're ending up with is dismissing out of hand Thor lifting the World Serpent and stopping a 1/5th universe-busting blast.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Back in those days, a rookie GL teleported and opened/closed black holes like it was nothing.

I've never understood why they're mook GLs to begin with. It's not like GLs are a race of superbeings where some might be less endowed than others, like the gods and other alien species.

Individually a GL represents one of the best possible users of a power ring in a whole civilization. That means they're the best of the best, they shouldn't be fodder.

Not to say they can't be killed in the line of duty, simply that we should expect them to at least occassionally do things that the Earth GLs can't. We should expect more than a few less known GLs to do something superheroic.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thor absorbed the Null Bomb's energy in the 90s. Hulk busted the asteroid in the 90s.

How does this fact make 60s and 70s feats more relevant? That specifically suggests that older pre-Crisis feats are irrelevant, not the reverse.

Pretending GLs are the exception to the rule seems way off to me. We've had this conversation before. Just GLs? Even though they share the same diminishment, extended near 30 years, that the rest of the DC universe did, purposefully or not, which is ALSO shared by Kal-L AND at least one of their abilities was explicitly affected by the Crisis on-panel?

I laff @ how the bar got moved from pre-1980s to pre-1990s. At this point, you're now dismissing DC's post-Crisis 1986-1990 history and all you're ending up with is dismissing out of hand Thor lifting the World Serpent and stopping a 1/5th universe-busting blast.

so? modern heralds have crazy feats. nobody is disputing that.

how did i say it does?

i never said gl's were the exception to the rule.

i'm not dismissing anything. i was just commenting on what bada said.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thor absorbed the Null Bomb's energy in the 90s. Hulk busted the asteroid in the 90s.

How does this fact make 60s and 70s feats more relevant? That specifically suggests that older pre-Crisis feats are irrelevant, not the reverse.

Pretending GLs are the exception to the rule seems way off to me. We've had this conversation before. Just GLs? Even though they share the same diminishment, extended near 30 years, that the rest of the DC universe did, purposefully or not, which is ALSO shared by Kal-L AND at least one of their abilities was explicitly affected by the Crisis on-panel?

I laff @ how the bar got moved from pre-1980s to pre-1990s. At this point, you're now dismissing DC's post-Crisis 1986-1990 history and all you're ending up with is dismissing out of hand Thor lifting the World Serpent and stopping a 1/5th universe-busting blast.

No Thor's 1/5 Universe feat was in the 80s. That dwarfs what ever you are talking about. Hulk asteroid feat happened in 1990 not the 90s. You are now trying to be a con salesman twisting words in an illusion as to make it seem as it could have happened in 1998 or something.

Asteroid Hulk is no longer either. He has diminished since that feat too.

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk asteroid feat happened in 1990 not the 90s.

you perpetually make an ass of yourself

dude stomped you pages ago, let it go

Originally posted by h1a8
Going that route would make SS, Thor, Hulk, etc. not able to do anything that they have done in the far past if they haven't been doing it in modern times of comics.

I believe most here don't go that route though.

IMO, Marvel has it pre-crisis like days too. When characters were doing silly powerful stuff here and there. Just look at Hulk.
Not really, Marvel's done a decent job of keeping their "big names" average showing pretty consistant(and you're outright insane if you think Surfer was portrayed as being more powerful back in the day). And if you'll notice, the guys from Marvel who haven't been consistantly portrayed ARE recognized by different versions on the forum even though their entire history is still technically canon, that's why people use names like Classic Wonderman even though Simon's technically more powerful now than he was back in the day.

Originally posted by h1a8
No Thor's 1/5 Universe feat was in the 80s. That dwarfs what ever you are talking about. Hulk asteroid feat happened in 1990 not the 90s. You are now trying to be a con salesman twisting words in an illusion as to make it seem as it could have happened in 1998 or something. That underlined statement = the dumbest thing I've ever read in the past several months here on KMC. The year 1990 isn't the 1990s? I'm twisting words? Originally posted by h1a8
Asteroid Hulk is no longer either. He has diminished since that feat too. Nuclear explosion to confetti Hal Jordan is no longer either. He has diminished since that feat too. Over 40 years ago.






Thank you for punctuating the inherent hypocrisy behind this entire line of argumentation.

and here comes the fail rebuttal......

I don't know what's to debate? I've said we will be using BOTH versions of the character. So PC feats are valid here. Sheesh.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you perpetually make an ass of yourself

dude stomped you pages ago, let it go

Everyone stomps h1a8 in a debate, tho. Doesn't stop him from bending over and taking more of the same.

I think he likes it.

Originally posted by -Pr-
so? modern heralds have crazy feats. nobody is disputing that.

how did i say it does?

i never said gl's were the exception to the rule.

i'm not dismissing anything. i was just commenting on what bada said. 1. 70s and 80s Marvel Herald-level characters have crazy feats.
2. Modern Marvel Herald-level characters have crazy feats that, except for two examples cited thus far, actually match or surpass those older crazy feats.
3. There was no Crisis on Infinite Marvel Earths that retconned everything.
4. Nearly all modern Marvel Herald-level characters are actually overall more powerful than they were in the 70s and 80s.
5. Nearly all 70s and 80s Marvel history remains canon and is consistently reinforced in detailed flashbacks and modern retellings in an almost zealous fashion... Avengers #300's backup tale on the first Avengers' adventure, Avengers: The Origin, Thor: First Thunder, Spiderman and the Secret Wars, etc.

1. Pre-Crisis DC Herald-level characters have crazy+++ feats.
2. Modern DC Herald-level characters have crazy feats that don't come close to matching or surpassing those pre-Crisis crazy+++ feats.
3. There was a Crisis on Infinite Earths that retconned histories away and punctuated a wholesale trend towards diminished power.
4. ALL post-Crisis DC Herald-level characters are far less powerful than they were pre-Crisis whether you think they were directly affected or not.
5. Nearly all pre-Crisis DC history is banished for the sake of new histories... which is constantly shifting even more with new DC-wide events like Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis... and even more character-specifically with the 80s' Superman: Man of Steel to the 90s' Superman: Birthright to the 00's Superman: Secret Origin, and Green Lantern: Secret Origin, etc.



With those listed circumstances set side-by-side, what exactly is your justification again for acting like pre-Crisis DC feats are just as valid as 70s and 80s Marvel feats?

That's a rheteorical question.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Everyone stomps h1a8 in a debate, tho. Doesn't stop him from bending over and taking more of the same.

I think he likes it.

He must have a fetish then?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Not really, Marvel's done a decent job of keeping their "big names" average showing pretty consistant(and you're outright insane if you think Surfer was portrayed as being more powerful back in the day). And if you'll notice, the guys from Marvel who haven't been consistantly portrayed ARE recognized by different versions on the forum even though their entire history is still technically canon, that's why people use names like Classic Wonderman even though Simon's technically more powerful now than he was back in the day.

Im not referring to averages but rather single feats. A character now could be more powerful but they can have a feat in the far past that dwarfs their current feats. Surfer is probably an exception. Hulk and Thor are not.

With that said,
Actually I believe WM was more powerful back then than now.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That underlined statement = the dumbest thing I've ever read in the past several months here on KMC. The year 1990 isn't the 1990s? I'm twisting words? You just mad cause I caught you trying to con readers here. You purposely chose to use the misleading "happened in the 90s" rather than "happened in 1990" or not mention it all since anything borderline can be ruled an exception. This is like merchants pricing their items $14.95 to make it seem as if a customer is playing $14 instead of $15.

Where is the hypocrisy? Use current feats or use old ones. I'm fine with either. But don't use old canon feats on me and say I can't do the same.

I don't even think you know what the definition of a hypocrite is. Nothing I said is even remotely hypocritical. I'm arguing fairness, nothing more. What is hypocritical about that?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Everyone stomps h1a8 in a debate, tho. Doesn't stop him from bending over and taking more of the same.

I think he likes it. I believe I win most of the debates. My points are always strong logically. Sometimes (like less than 5%) I am wrong and do humble concede.

Originally posted by h1a8
I believe I win most of the debates. My points are always strong logically. Sometimes (like less than 5%) I am wrong and do humble concede.

drylaugh

1. Ba
2. Hal

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1. 70s and 80s Marvel Herald-level characters have crazy feats.
2. Modern Marvel Herald-level characters have crazy feats that, except for two examples cited thus far, actually match or surpass those older crazy feats.
3. There was no Crisis on Infinite Marvel Earths that retconned everything. Why speak of heralds only? Why not speak of Hulk and Thor. The question is that older feats are far crazier.

This is moot. The fact still remains that many Marvel character's BEST feats are found in older comics. Heralds for the most part are exempt from this though. That is why you only mention them I see.

The GL are still canon too. Same thing.

Who cares about D.C. as a whole. We are only concerned with the GL. Manipulating time is not a crazy ++++ feat. Stop with the con games now. Hell many were just arguing with me that Silver Surfer beats Dr. Manhattan by BFR him to the stone age or far future.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

And we both know the Crisis is the exact reason that GLs don't go gallivanting around in time travel adventures. Can't and don't are different things.


When discussing the Ring in Last Will and Testament:


"What can it do?" I asked again, still confused.

"Anything." Hal said. "Everything. If you will it, it happens."

"It forges dreams and thoughts into matter. It reads minds. It lets you fly, become invisible, pass through walls, teleport through space-- walk through time."

Originally posted by Juntai
Can't and don't are different things.


When discussing the Ring in Last Will and Testament:


"What can it do?" I asked again, still confused.

"Anything." Hal said. "Everything. If you will it, it happens."

"It forges dreams and thoughts into matter. It reads minds. It lets you fly, become invisible, pass through walls, teleport through space-- walk through time."

And really, if they aren't even allowed to operate outside their sectors, it makes sense they wouldn't be running through time much either.

Of course, Alan Scott fooled with time in Crisis Times Five to evolve a species, and maybe it's a poor argument comparing his magical Starheart energies with the GL's stuff.. But they do seem to operate under the same basic principles.

Same power set, with different weaknesses, kind of like how Sinestro's yellow rings can also do anything a GL ring can..

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1. Pre-Crisis DC Herald-level characters have crazy+++ feats.
2. Modern DC Herald-level characters have crazy feats that don't come close to matching or surpassing those pre-Crisis crazy+++ feats.
3. There was a Crisis on Infinite Earths that retconned histories away and punctuated a wholesale trend towards diminished power.
4. ALL post-Crisis DC Herald-level characters are far less powerful than they were pre-Crisis whether you think they were directly affected or not.
5. Nearly all pre-Crisis DC history is banished for the sake of new histories... which is constantly shifting even more with new DC-wide events like Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis... and even more character-specifically with the 80s' Superman: Man of Steel to the 90s' Superman: Birthright to the 00's Superman: Secret Origin, and Green Lantern: Secret Origin, etc.



With those listed circumstances set side-by-side, what exactly is your justification again for acting like pre-Crisis DC feats are just as valid as 70s and 80s Marvel feats?

That's a rheteorical question.

you think it helps at all that several of the things you said were actually wrong?

i know it won't make a difference, though...

^ You can feel free to try and point out the inaccuracies. Originally posted by Juntai
Can't and don't are different things.

When discussing the Ring in Last Will and Testament:

"What can it do?" I asked again, still confused.

"Anything." Hal said. "Everything. If you will it, it happens."

"It forges dreams and thoughts into matter. It reads minds. It lets you fly, become invisible, pass through walls, teleport through space-- walk through time." Read the Green Lantern comics that immediately follow the Crisis for your answer on time-travel.

Purple prose =/= on-panel feats.

Hulk is not HH, he is limited. People that use CIS for the sake of the plot aka PIS, doesnt make him a HH. Strange or anyone of the HHs, Hell Even Sentry should have stomped his ass. They dont because once Hulk gets stomps in 1 - few panels, it wouldnt make a good story.

^ Herald-level =/= High Herald. Originally posted by h1a8
Why speak of heralds only? Why not speak of Hulk and Thor. The question is that older feats are far crazier.

This is moot. The fact still remains that many Marvel character's BEST feats are found in older comics. Heralds for the most part are exempt from this though. That is why you only mention them I see.Hulk and Thor are Herald-level characters.

I just showed you that isn't true. Of course, your point that 1990 isn't actually considered the 1990s was a compelling argument... still trying to figure out that winner. Originally posted by h1a8
The GL are still canon too. Same thing.

Who cares about D.C. as a whole. We are only concerned with the GL. Manipulating time is not a crazy ++++ feat. Stop with the con games now. Hell many were just arguing with me that Silver Surfer beats Dr. Manhattan by BFR him to the stone age or far future. Kal-L's history is still canon to him. He isn't sneezing galaxies away. Way to miss the point. And Hal Jordan's original history has not been zealously reinforced. At all. You'd know this if you read Green Lantern comics.

DC as whole made a wholesale change in how they portrayed their characters post-Crisis. That included the GLs. Gallivanting around time like it was as easy as opening a door is a crazy+++ feat for GLs. Because they can't do that anymore. Specifically because of the Crisis. Read Green Lantern comics. Originally posted by h1a8
You just mad cause I caught you trying to con readers here. You purposely chose to use the misleading "happened in the 90s" rather than "happened in 1990" or not mention it all since anything borderline can be ruled an exception. This is like merchants pricing their items $14.95 to make it seem as if a customer is playing $14 instead of $15.... your analogy would make sense if I tried to say November of 1989 is technically the 1990s. The year 1990 is part of the 1990's. That is not misleading and this isn't meant to be hard. Originally posted by h1a8
Where is the hypocrisy? Use current feats or use old ones. I'm fine with either. But don't use old canon feats on me and say I can't do the same.

I don't even think you know what the definition of a hypocrite is. Nothing I said is even remotely hypocritical. I'm arguing fairness, nothing more. What is hypocritical about that? You use current characters. You don't use current characters and pretend you can cut/paste old, retconned/retrofitted feats that have utterly no significance anymore.

Kal-L, the Superman of Earth-2. All his history is canon. He was never "affected" by the Crisis. Can he accidentally sneeze galaxies away? No. We saw him in Infinite Crisis. He matched Kal-El when he went insane with grief. You don't use meaningless old feats when the entire DC Comics line has moved on from all that bs.

This is a reality check. Your interpretation of the character goes directly against how the character is portrayed. On-panel comics >>> your wet-dream fantasy. On-panel comics >>> your logic that 1990 isn't the 1990s.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You can feel free to try and point out the inaccuracies. Read the Green Lantern comics that immediately follow the Crisis for your answer on time-travel.

Purple prose =/= on-panel feats.

yes, because getting snarky is going to encourage me to reply.

feel free to continue the argument, but keep the bashing out of it.

^ Snarkiness =/= bashing in my opinion.

My incredulity with your insinuation that I was inaccurate is just that. Incredulity. I invite you to point out the inconsistency nonetheless. Without snark.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Snarkiness =/= bashing in my opinion.

My incredulity with your insinuation that I was inaccurate is just that. Incredulity. I invite you to point out the inconsistency nonetheless. Without snark.

i wasn't saying you were bashing me, just to clarify.

i just honestly don't see a reason to. i don't believe that all dc heralds are automatically less powerful post crisis than they were before it. That and the diminished power thing i disagree with, but even if i bring out what i think is right, it's not going to make a whole lot of difference.

^ Oh. Then I shall consider this as a ratification for me to continue my snarking away. uhuh

I won't play the guessing game. But as it stands, I imagine those nitpicks wouldn't be relevant to the characters we're mainly talking about in any case.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Oh. Then I shall consider this as a ratification for me to continue my snarking away. uhuh

I won't play the guessing game. But as it stands, I imagine those nitpicks wouldn't be relevant to the characters we're mainly talking about in any case.

for the most part, no, but you did make some pretty broad-ranged comments.

^ You callin me a "broad"? uhuh

Reported for bashing. ahah

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You callin me a "broad"? uhuh

Reported for bashing. ahah

well...

Bada is a bimbo, so it could always be worst!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You can feel free to try and point out the inaccuracies. Read the Green Lantern comics that immediately follow the Crisis for your answer on time-travel.

Purple prose =/= on-panel feats. Which Crisis?
I have most GL issues printed.
Issue number?

lol, "which crisis?"

oh dc

Why is ODG getting all lady like again? durette

cause he's serving you dudes

Originally posted by psycho gundam
cause he's serving you dudes

it's "servicing".

Originally posted by psycho gundam
lol, "which crisis?"

oh dc Oh, the irony. Originally posted by Juntai
Which Crisis?
I have most GL issues printed.
Issue number? The original one. I don't know the issue # off the top of my head. It's when Hal and Arisia and Salaak go to the future. Hal says something like if he hadn't been to that exact time period before the Crisis, he couldn't have been able to time travel to the future specifically because the Crisis made it impossibly harder due to screwing the timestream or something. Originally posted by Badabing
Why is ODG getting all lady like again? durette What I do in my spare time, is MY business. uhuh

Originally posted by -Pr-
it's "servicing".

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Herald-level =/= High Herald. Hulk and Thor are Herald-level characters.

I just showed you that isn't true. Of course, your point that 1990 isn't actually considered the 1990s was a compelling argument... still trying to figure out that winner. Kal-L's history is still canon to him. He isn't sneezing galaxies away. Way to miss the point. And Hal Jordan's original history has not been zealously reinforced. At all. You'd know this if you read Green Lantern comics. Hulk is not busting asteroid anymore either. See its the same point.
Time travel is not even that crazy, its normal. Sneezing galaxies and busting asteroids are the crazy ones.
The fact that you chose the words 90s proves you are trying to sell us some crap. If you are right then speak in a way where it is more clear. 90s doesn't tell us if it is 99 or 90 and those two years are like night and day. It is moot whether D.C. wanted to weaken their characters. The point is people use feats from that past that dwarfs current feats. The character being weaker back then even proves my point more greatly. That means the character shouldn't be doing stuff that current characters can't do.
Moot! The point is there are crazy feats by Marvel characters back in the day too (not as crazy though) yet people have used them.
Nope. How characters are portrayed is in their feats.

Originally posted by h1a8
Hulk is not busting asteroid anymore either. See its the same point.
Time travel is not even that crazy, its normal. Sneezing galaxies and busting asteroids are the crazy ones.You just said current feats count. And that current feats includes the 90s. Hulk busted an asteroid twice the size of the Earth in 1990. It's not my fault that you set up an arbitrary rule that backfired in your face. Originally posted by h1a8
The fact that you chose the words 90s proves you are trying to sell us some crap. If you are right then speak in a way where it is more clear. 90s doesn't tell us if it is 99 or 90 and those two years are like night and day. It is moot whether D.C. wanted to weaken their characters. The point is people use feats from that past that dwarfs current feats. The character being weaker back then even proves my point more greatly. That means the character shouldn't be doing stuff that current characters can't do.... are you drunk? I didn't choose the 90s, YOU and your cohorts did. I have no idea why 1990 became the magical year in Marvel comics for you all. Stop flinging stupid at me in the hopes that it will stick. And how does a character being weaker in the past... undermine people using older feats when the character is currently more powerful than they were? What the hucking fell? Originally posted by h1a8
Moot! The point is there are crazy feats by Marvel characters back in the day too (not as crazy though) yet people have used them.

Nope. How characters are portrayed is in their feats. They use crazy feats because it's consistent with the character in that most characters you're thinking of are actually more overall powerful than they were in the past.

No sh1t. That's the point. And feats tell you that GLs are nowhere near as powerful as they used to be same way feats tell you that Kal-L was nowhere near as powerful as he used to be.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What I do in my spare time, is MY business. uhuh

Black Adam wins.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You just said current feats count. And that current feats includes the 90s. Hulk busted an asteroid twice the size of the Earth in 1990. It's not my fault that you set up an arbitrary rule that backfired in your face. ... are you drunk? I didn't choose the 90s, YOU and your cohorts did. I have no idea why 1990 became the magical year in Marvel comics for you all. Stop flinging stupid at me in the hopes that it will stick. And how does a character being weaker in the past... undermine people using older feats when the character is currently more powerful than they were? What the hucking fell? They use crazy feats because it's consistent with the character in that most characters you're thinking of are actually more overall powerful than they were in the past.

No sh1t. That's the point. And feats tell you that GLs are nowhere near as powerful as they used to be same way feats tell you that Kal-L was nowhere near as powerful as he used to be.

The principle still remains though. You can nitpick all you want but the principle still remains the same. I don't accept the feat not because it was from 1990 but rather that it is PIS.

No! You don't understand. You said, "happened in the 90s" rather than saying "happened in 1990". You tried to squeeze us like a con artist salesman. Your choice of words betray your secret.

If crazy feats were consistent with a character then the feats wouldn't be crazy at all. Using marvel old crazy feats and saying that we can't use GL old non crazy ones is not only hypocritical but bias and wrong.

90's = 1990 - 2000

1990 = 1900

H1 is just being gay on his techincal shit, as always.

Originally posted by h1a8
The principle still remains though. You can nitpick all you want but the principle still remains the same. I don't accept the feat not because it was from 1990 but rather that it is PIS. Then by your rationale, you admit that the time period it comes from is meaningless. Good. You walked right into that one splendidly. And Hulk destroying planet-sized objects isn't PIS. He's held a planet together from breaking apart and is consistently portrayed as one of the strongest characters in Marvel, whose strength is on par with beings like Gladiator, Champion, classic Drax, characters who have destroyed planet-sized objects with their fists. Just. Like. Hulk. Did. On. Panel. Get over it. Originally posted by h1a8
No! You don't understand. You said, "happened in the 90s" rather than saying "happened in 1990". You tried to squeeze us like a con artist salesman. Your choice of words betray your secret.1990 is in the 1990s. This isn't a secret, you nunce. And you completely shredded your own arguments on whether time period means anything. Your focus is on PIS... or more appropriately, what you think is PIS but are actually high-end feats consistent with how the character is portrayed... or even more appropriately, feats you wish the characters didn't have because you're butt-hurt (hence the no feats before 1990s allowed!!11). Originally posted by h1a8
If crazy feats were consistent with a character then the feats wouldn't be crazy at all. Using marvel old crazy feats and saying that we can't use GL old non crazy ones is not only hypocritical but bias and wrong. These aren't old feats. And whether they are old or not makes no difference by your own admission. These aren't crazy feats. Because it's consistent with the characters as they are portrayed now, most of whom are currently overall more powerful.

In the end, nobody ever argues that Hulk punches Superman with a punch that can shatter a planet twice the size of Earth. Nobody ever argues that Thor cannot be defeated with less than a 1/5th universe-destroying feat. Nobody is using these arguments against you. So what's the problem?

You and other GL fans are the only ones that continue to use these arguments, e.g., "pfft, that blast won't do crap, Kyle held a Big Bang (no, he didn't)," "pfft, Hal will just shrink him like he did Shaggy Man," "pfft, Guy will just reverse time on him," "pfft, John wouldn't be hurt by blackholes, even rookies deal with them easily."

At this point, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. For four pages you've now realized that most of the high-end feats you thought were from the 60s-80s, actually aren't. Accordingly, you've also been cornered into admitting that the time period means nothing. You've also learned that characters like Hulk, Thor and Surfer are currently more overall powerful than they were portrayed back then. You're also learning that these feats are actually consistent with how they're portrayed, hence not PIS.

What you haven't learned yet is that all these imaginary hypocritical arguments you think are being forced upon you, are simply reflections of your own insipid rationale. And they always have been.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Black Adam wins.

Now back to the thread at hand. Black Adam ftw.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
they're exotic one-time unreliable powers. I treat someone arguing Superman's T-Vo matters as much as someone argues Thor uses super-breath. And the objectionality of it has nothing to do with the time-period.

I understand you just fine. Your problem isn't with one-time exotic feats or with feats from the 60s-80s. Your problem is that your favorite characters aren't as powerful as they used to be. One has nothing to do with the other. Stop trying to conflate them. Except Superman has used it several times, even used mental projections since after 52.

I agree, Adam wins majority. The few times that Hal would bring it, though, would look like an ownage. And if he ever got back to ringslinging like he once did, this'll be a much better matchup.

Originally posted by Juntai
Except Superman has used it several times, even used mental projections since after 52. Several times in a short period of time. Same as how Thor used superbreath often in a short period of time. Same as how Thor summoned his Belt of Strength several times in a short period of time. Nobody thinks Thor calling for his Belt of Strength is a serious consideration in a hypothetical vs. fight. Also, mental projections =/= T-Vo.

Also I think it's dumb Superman can't talk in space. He can hear through space... but he can't talk through space? Originally posted by BattleMage
Now back to the thread at hand. Black Adam ftw.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Several times in a short period of time. Same as how Thor used superbreath often in a short period of time. Same as how Thor summoned his Belt of Strength several times in a short period of time. Nobody thinks Thor calling for his Belt of Strength is a serious consideration in a hypothetical vs. fight. Also, mental projections =/= T-Vo.

Also I think it's dumb Superman can't talk in space. He can hear through space... but he can't talk through space? He can depending on who's writing him.


Also, yeah, he used it primarily for the one arc, but still has maintained it since then. As said, OWAW was what, 2001? And he's used his mental abilities since Crisis. Large gap there. He used them or mentioned them a handful of times between those gaps as well.

You think his use of projections in that issue are not directly related to him learning how to create projections with Tvo and TRao years earlier? lol. Man up.

Originally posted by Juntai
He can depending on who's writing him.

Also, yeah, he used it primarily for the one arc, but still has maintained it since then. As said, OWAW was what, 2001? And he's used his mental abilities since Crisis. Large gap there. He used them or mentioned them a handful of times between those gaps as well.

You think his use of projections in that issue are not directly related to him learning how to create projections with Tvo and TRao years earlier? lol. Man up. Editorial isn't going to let T-Vo make a return appearaance. It was dumb. "Torqasm-Vo"? Seriously?

Mental abilities =/= T-Vo. Thor's teleported sh1t hundreds of times. That doesn't lend credence to him teleporting in his Belt of Strength in a fight.

No. Not at all. We both know what T-Vo really was and how far it extended. Mental projection communication <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< T-Vo. Don't fool yourself.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Editorial isn't going to let T-Vo make a return appearaance. It was dumb. "Torqasm-Vo"? Seriously?

Mental abilities =/= T-Vo. Thor's teleported sh1t hundreds of times. That doesn't lend credence to him teleporting in his Belt of Strength in a fight.

No. Not at all. We both know what T-Vo really was and how far it extended. Mental projection communication <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< T-Vo. Don't fool yourself. Of course T-Vo expands farther than a simple projection. However, Superman has never displayed an ability to make mental projections otherwise, ones that even perform physical tasks, like he could through the use of Torqasm Vo and in that Omac issue. You're making a fool of yourself here, not I, when we saw Superman learn the ability to do this on panel, and then using it again years later, and suggesting it's a whole new power he attained whilst losing the abilities of the former. Attempt to talk yourself around it all you want, but that's what you're suggesting here.

I suppose that's like Editorial never letting them mention Hypertime again, huh?

Originally posted by Juntai
Of course T-Vo expands farther than a simple projection. However, Superman has never displayed an ability to make mental projections otherwise, ones that even perform physical tasks, like he could through the use of Torqasm Vo and in that Omac issue. You're making a fool of yourself here, not I, when we saw Superman learn the ability to do this on panel, and then using it again years later, and suggesting it's a whole new power he attained whilst losing the abilities of the former.His communication via mental projection has nothing to do with T-Vo. Srsly. Don't get too excited about Superman pulling another power out of his butt. Originally posted by Juntai
I suppose that's like Editorial never letting them mention Hypertime again, huh? Hypertime is not stupid. T-Vo was stupid.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
His communication via mental projection has nothing to do with T-Vo. Srsly. Don't get too excited about Superman pulling another power out of his butt. Hypertime is not stupid. T-Vo was stupid. You've already dug a hole here.

Just to clarify to you how bad it sounds one more time...

.. . what you're saying is that Superman lost the ability to perform Torqasm Vo, that let him, among other things, create mental projections that could perform even physical tasks.

And then when we see him perform this exact thing again, that we saw him learn on panel, it's a completely new power to him?

^ Communication via mental projection =/= T-Vo.

I don't know what hole you think has been dug here.

I understand you're excited over this. But srsly. You're reaching.

This is comparable to suggesting that when Thor transmuted his costume's elements right after Blood and Thunder, that is support for him shrinking Hyperion down and casting him into a glass ball. Gimme a break.

It's not akin to Thor teleporting in a belt of strength, it'd be like saying Thor can't teleport things at all, and then suggesting it's a new power every time he does it, and that he forgot how once it was over.
lol.


Saying what may or may not be Out of Character however, is a different story.

^ I can see/agree with Superman using mental projections to communicate with people. That doesn't mean T-Vo is making a comeback. Don't get your hopes up. Originally posted by Juntai
It's not akin to Thor teleporting in a belt of strength, it'd be like saying Thor can't teleport things at all, and then suggesting it's a new power every time he does it, and that he forgot how once it was over.
lol.

Saying what may or may not be Out of Character however, is a different story. Thor sure could have used his Belt of Strength in many a situation. Apparently, he's forgotten about it. Which is actually more on-point concerning this right now than you'd think.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Communication via mental projection =/= T-Vo.

I don't know what hole you think has been dug here.

I understand you're excited over this. But srsly. You're reaching.

This is comparable to suggesting that when Thor transmuted his costume's elements right after Blood and Thunder, that is support for him shrinking Hyperion down and casting him into a glass ball. Gimme a break. This isn't something I'm newly excited about, I was the one that pointed it out on this site to begin with. Someone else just got the scans for me, a long time ago.

No, it's quite clear.

We saw Superman learn how to create physical projections with his mind. It's part of a discipline called Torqasm Vo. To suggest that the next time he performs the same thing, is a completely separate ability he picked up while we weren't paying attention is just well . .. dumb . .g0.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I can see/agree with Superman using mental projections Of course you can. We saw him learn how to do it on panel.


I'm not suggesting he's going to start using it and whipping everyone's ass again, but to suggest he doesn't have it, when we see him using it on panel, isn't a good argument.

^ He has the ability to communicate via mental projections. So what?

Torquasm-Vo doesn't gain any credence because of this. If you're not going to use Torquasm-Vo in an argument, then what was the point of mentioning it? Don't mention the two things in the same breath if there's no point.Originally posted by Juntai
This isn't something I'm newly excited about, I was the one that pointed it out on this site to begin with. Someone else just got the scans for me, a long time ago.

No, it's quite clear.

We saw Superman learn how to create physical projections with his mind. It's part of a discipline called Torqasm Vo. To suggest that the next time he performs the same thing, is a completely separate ability he picked up while we weren't paying attention is just well . .. dumb . .g0. You're doubting Superman picking up new abilities spontaneously?

I fail to see how communicating via mental projections is necessarily connected to Superman learning Torquasm-Vo. That's like suggesting that when Superman is focusing on breaking mental control, it's necessarily connected to Superman learning Torquasm Rao.

Give me a break.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're doubting Superman picking up new abilities spontaneously?

I fail to see how communicating via mental projections is necessarily connected to Superman learning Torquasm-Vo. That's like suggesting that when Superman is focusing on breaking mental control, it's necessarily connected to Superman learning Torquasm Rao.

Give me a break. No, that's attributed to training and Kryptonian physiology, it's been told to us/shown to us, on panel, same as Superman creating projections.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, that's attributed to training and Kryptonian physiology, it's been told to us, on panel, same as Superman creating physical projections.

Notice how his mental projection pulled his knife from the wall, crushed it, and handed it back to him as a wad of paper?
lmao.

He just picked up that ability too. Show me where Superman attributed his ability to communicate via mental projections to his training in the Kryptonian martial arts.

... as I understood it, that was a mental projection too. Let me read the comic again.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Show me where Superman attributed his ability to communicate via mental projections to his training in the Kryptonian martial arts.

... as I understood it, that was a mental projection too. Let me read the comic again. You're right, it was, I just read it, and edited a few minutes before you posted.

He didn't have to state specifically. We know he learned how to create them in an arc, all the same.

^ "Superman struggles to resist Despero's mind control in Crisis of Conscience... zomg, is teh Torquasm Rao!!!!"

No. Just, no. Mental projections aren't necessarily Torquasm-Vo anymore than struggling to maintain mental harmony isn't necessarily Torquasm-Rao. Stop it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ "Superman struggles to resist Despero's mind control in Crisis of Conscience... zomg, is teh Torquasm Rao!!!!"

No. Just, no. Mental projections aren't necessarily Torquasm-Vo anymore than struggling to maintain mental harmony isn't necessarily Torquasm-Rao. Stop it. His ability to resist mental control is because of his will, training, and kryptonian physiology being difficult to overcome, this has been told to us all before on panel.

Just like how they told us he gained the ability to create mental projections.

Interesting huh?

Originally posted by Juntai
His ability to resist mental control is because of his will, training, and kryptonian physiology being difficult to overcome, this has been told to us all before on panel.Which has sh1t to do with Kryptonian martial arts that was stretched into a broken ability that was so laughable even Superman fans are embarassed about it. Originally posted by Juntai
Just like how they told us he gained the ability to create mental projections.

Interesting huh? All mental projections =/= Torquasm-Vo.

Insinuating that whenever Superman does something mentally, it must have something to do with Torquasm-Vo or Torquasm-Rao is sh1t logic. Enough of this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Insinuating that whenever Superman does something mentally, it must have something to do with Torquasm-Vo or Torquasm-Rao is sh1t logic. Enough of this. I never made such a claim. I remarked that we saw him learn how to create mental projections in an arc, and then use them later on. To say it's not attributed is the sh1t logic, bro, and you know it, you're just too stubborn, even when dead wrong.

The only thing you've done here is make wild claims to make it seem ridiculous he's using a power exactly as we saw him learn on panel by saying "That's like ", when clearly that's not the case at all.

^ If you're not making that claim then we have nothing to argue about.

In the meantime, my claim stands on its own:

"Superman doing something mentally, necessarily involves Torquasm-Vo or Torquasm-Rao" = sh1t logic.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ If you're not making that claim then we have nothing to argue about.

In the meantime, my claim stands on its own:

"Superman doing something mentally, necessarily involves Torquasm-Vo or Torquasm-Rao" = sh1t logic. And mine is the same, seeing Superman learn to create mental projections with Torqasm Vo, then later see him creating mental projections, and suggesting it's not the power he learned on panel but an entirely new one = sh1t logic.

We're settled then, and yours still looks far more ridiculous. Thank you for playing.