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1. On earth
2. Shuma Gorath's realm
3. Same as 2, but Amatsu-Mikaboshi has all his slave gods with him.

Shuma Gorath.

Pre mature to create thread base on 1 comic issue. He didn't do anything yet.

Mikaboshi in all three.

On panel we have him :

Killing the Skrull Goddess that owned Demogorge
Enslaving the captive Gods
Killing Pantheons (Shinto and Greek)
Killing Skyfathers (Zeus)
Killing demons (Nightmare)

No conjecture or hyperbole, just on panel evidence.

amatsu seems to b the next 'god' like being

see some more feats from him

i'll say amatsu because of all the hype

word to the wise, he'll lose in the end like all the other 'god' like beings

Sure he'll lose.

But look at the damage he's already wrecked and look at who's taking the fight to him : Galactus, Thor, Uber Herc, etc...

There's no shame in losing to that team up.

i still pick shuma for now shuma is very uber

Going with Shuma. The fact that Sise-Neg would have had to resort to battling Shuma for an extended length of time, and wasn't able to simply will him out of existence, speaks volumes concerning his power.

Originally posted by Galan007
Going with Shuma. The fact that Sise-Neg would have had to resort to battling Shuma for an extended length of time, and wasn't able to simply will him out of existence, speaks volumes concerning his power.

100% agree with you "up". Next to Zom, Shuma Gorath is the second most powerful demon point blank.

Don't like Mikaboshi's hype.

I'm thinking after he gets brought down, he's never going to be referred to or written at these pantheon slaughtering levels again.

The void before the universe was born wasn't such a void after all it seems, how many characters with origins having to deal with nothingness have we dealt with so far?

Originally posted by the Darkone
100% agree with you "up". Next to Zom, Shuma Gorath is the second most powerful demon point blank.

He's superior to Zom.

Originally posted by Galan007
Going with Shuma. The fact that Sise-Neg would have had to resort to battling Shuma for an extended length of time, and wasn't able to simply will him out of existence, speaks volumes concerning his power.
Worth noting that Sise-Neg hadn't completed his transformation yet, though.

Originally posted by CortSether
He's superior to Zom.
Just to clear this up, you do realize that Eternity is above Shuma, right?

Originally posted by CosmicComet

The void before the universe was born wasn't such a void after all it seems, how many characters with origins having to deal with nothingness have we dealt with so far?

true.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
i still pick shuma for now shuma is very uber Originally posted by Galan007
Going with Shuma. The fact that Sise-Neg would have had to resort to battling Shuma for an extended length of time, and wasn't able to simply will him out of existence, speaks volumes concerning his power.

i agree

Originally posted by King Kandy
Worth noting that Sise-Neg hadn't completed his transformation yet, though.

He was still insanely powerful at that point. He was near the end of his journey.


Just to clear this up, you do realize that Eternity is above Shuma, right?

Well duh. You just have this false impression that Zom is anywhere near Eternity in power.

Originally posted by CortSether
Well duh. You just have this false impression that Zom is anywhere near Eternity in power. both zom and shuma are above eternity in power

.

seems like mikaboshi spawned the elder gods



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/57606/1442310-darkness.jpg

who knows he probably spawned shuma

All demons,Gods were born from the death of the Infinty Being according to Mephisto.

Originally posted by Nihilist
All demons,Gods were born from the death of the Infinty Being according to Mephisto. do you know how much times origons have been made and retconned?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
do you know how much times origons have been made and retconned? The Infinity being has never been retconned.

Shuma Gorath loosly based on Cthulu is an Ancient One. A being older than time and waits dormant for future destruction.

Amatsu-Mikaboshi is apparently the force of the Unknown itself. A being that disguised in its present form wants to destroy all creation itself. A god killer.

I'm siding with Mikaboshi. Regardless of lack of feats.

Originally posted by Nihilist
The Infinity being has never been retconned. Reed and the Alien Entity were responsible for creating the Marvel universe, last I heard.

Originally posted by Galan007
Reed and the Alien Entity were responsible for creating the Marvel universe, last I heard.
What about Sise-Neg? Or Multi-Eternity?

God damn it Marvel is just as bad as DC when it comes to their origin story(s). nono

Originally posted by Galan007
Reed and the Alien Entity were responsible for creating the Marvel universe, last I heard. I know, im talikng about the part in which Mephisto says that all demons,elder gods etc came from the infinity being.

Originally posted by Nihilist
I know, im talikng about the part in which Mephisto says that all demons,elder gods etc came from the infinity being.
That's been retconned... several times.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
both zom and shuma are above eternity in power
Shuma is in no way on Eternity's level. It's no mistake that Strange continually calls Eternity the most powerful mystic being of all.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What about Sise-Neg? Or Multi-Eternity?

God damn it Marvel is just as bad as DC when it comes to their origin story(s). nono Sise-Neg's feat is still canon, but Reed and the AE's feat (being more recent) should supersede it.

I agree.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's been retconned... several times. What that they were all born from the death of the previous universe and the birth of the current one.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Shuma is in no way on Eternity's level. It's no mistake that Strange continually calls Eternity the most powerful mystic being of all.

You forgot to include Zom as someone in no way on Eternity's level.

Eternity pimp slaps both.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
seems like mikaboshi spawned the elder gods



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/57606/1442310-darkness.jpg

who knows he probably spawned shuma

Good grief! So much retconning over a stupid throw away character. So what are Set, Oshtur, and Chthon? Are they still Elder Gods? Gaea wasn't created first, all the Elders were spontaneously created at once by the Demiurge.

Stupid move Marvel, very very stupid.

^Exactly. Screw Mikaboshi. His existence is phucking shit up.

Just watch him job to Hulk too and become nothing.

Omg I just thought of something.

If Mikaobshi is so powerful, how the hell did the Japanese pantheon manage to imprison him?

mmm Good question.

And another thing, didn't he make his first appearance in an issue of Ares or something? How could the Greek pantheon be taken so aback by him?

They have their own version of the void before creation, named "Chaos". Sure Zeus and crew would be aware of it and it's intentions.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
^Exactly. Screw Mikaboshi. His existence is phucking shit up.

Just watch him job to Hulk too and become nothing. lol so true.

Originally posted by King Kandy
It's no mistake that Strange continually calls Eternity the most powerful mystic being of all. the living tribunal is the most powerful mystic of all in the arc with slorith they summoned the vishanti as the most powerful magic force in the multiverse then the vishanti summoned the tribunal as the most powerful then the tribunal acknowledge them
since when was eternity mystical? he is cosmic power dr strange doesnt always know what he is talking about

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What about Sise-Neg? Or Multi-Eternity?

God damn it Marvel is just as bad as DC when it comes to their origin story(s). nono wasnt there a origion of some kind that superman was involved in the creation of dcu? or was it not canon?

Originally posted by zopzop
Omg I just thought of something.

If Mikaobshi is so powerful, how the hell did the Japanese pantheon manage to imprison him? plot, you was the same guy arguing on how they imprisoned shuma with some books or something

i also think mikaboshi is on his way to getting his full power, when creation happened he pretty much lost alot of his power to the stuff created, he killed nightmare and added his powers to his own remember

Originally posted by zopzop
Good grief! So much retconning over a stupid throw away character. So what are Set, Oshtur, and Chthon? Are they still Elder Gods? Gaea wasn't created first, all the Elders were spontaneously created at once by the Demiurge.

Stupid move Marvel, very very stupid. you do know in actual mythology
chaos was first then gaea was indeed born from chaos right?
and yes they would still be elder gods that was billions of years ago

cant wait to see galactus kick mikaboshi's ass.

shuma gorath wins here imo. he ruled over entire dimensions.

Originally posted by SuperMan103
cant wait to see galactus kick mikaboshi's ass.

they said other abstracts will be involved such as lord chaos and oblivion

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
they said other abstracts will be involved such as lord chaos and oblivion

to help mikaboshi i assume?

Originally posted by SuperMan103
to help mikaboshi i assume? idk thats all they said

i think galactus will use the UN and destroy mika

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
idk thats all they said

i think galactus will use the UN and destroy mika

doubt it. but if oblivion and lord chaos are to interfere in this event, i believe that they would rather help mikaboshi than herc and co.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the living tribunal is the most powerful mystic of all in the arc with slorith they summoned the vishanti as the most powerful magic force in the multiverse then the vishanti summoned the tribunal as the most powerful then the tribunal acknowledge them
since when was eternity mystical? he is cosmic power dr strange doesnt always know what he is talking about
Dr. Strange knows what he is talking about way more than you do. Eternity is more a mystical being than LT is, LT was shown using spells like, once or twice.

The fact that Eternity is above Shuma Gorath should be self evident. Dr. Strange's opinion aside, let's just look at how the two dealt with Strange while fighting him; Shuma actually fought Strange, magic against magic, and ultimately lost. In contrast, Eternity just decided that Strange wouldn't have his powers anymore and turned them off. Strange is a threat to Shuma, to Eternity Strange is literally nothing... he brushed Strange off like a fly.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
they said other abstracts will be involved such as lord chaos and oblivion
Kind of strange, based on Mikaboshi's origin so far you would think he's actually the same being as Oblivion.

Nah they are just BFFs. Sharing space in the pitch black back in the day.


Did I mention how laem Mikaboshi is already? Probably did.

Also, I hope they aren't going to include Lord Chaos in some kind of "Chaos vs. Order" idea, because that's never been the way the pair has been portrayed. Whenever one became bigger than the other, they both considered that a really, really bad thing. Chaos and Order are enemies of Death, not enemies of each other.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Dr. Strange knows what he is talking about way more than you do. Eternity is more a mystical being than LT is, LT was shown using spells like, once or twice.

The fact that Eternity is above Shuma Gorath should be self evident. Dr. Strange's opinion aside, let's just look at how the two dealt with Strange while fighting him; Shuma actually fought Strange, magic against magic, and ultimately lost. In contrast, Eternity just decided that Strange wouldn't have his powers anymore and turned them off. Strange is a threat to Shuma, to Eternity Strange is literally nothing... he brushed Strange off like a fly.

Just wanted to say that if Eternity is stronger than Shuma why didn't his analogues in the other universes and dimensions take him out when Shuma invaded those universes.

I never really got why some universes get wiped and LT and the abstracts of those universes never step in but when it's 616 or similar as soon as a universe ending threat comes in the jump on that like white on rice. I mean one universe did get collapsed by a version of Jaspers and the universe was only destroyed when the stability of the multiverse was threatened by Jim's madness.

Shuma in conquering other universes and dimensions must have come across the dimensions analogues for the abstarcts so I don't really think he is weaker than eternity. If anything him having quite a few universes and dimensions under his belt would make him a fair amount stronger than Eternity. I still call Strange beating Shuma jobbing like crazy.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Just wanted to say that if Eternity is stronger than Shuma why didn't his analogues in the other universes and dimensions take him out when Shuma invaded those universes.

I never really got why some universes get wiped and LT and the abstracts of those universes never step in but when it's 616 or similar as soon as a universe ending threat comes in the jump on that like white on rice. I mean one universe did get collapsed by a version of Jaspers and the universe was only destroyed when the stability of the multiverse was threatened by Jim's madness.

Shuma in conquering other universes and dimensions must have come across the dimensions analogues for the abstarcts so I don't really think he is weaker than eternity. If anything him having quite a few universes and dimensions under his belt would make him a fair amount stronger than Eternity. I still call Strange beating Shuma jobbing like crazy.
By that logic, Dormammu should be way stronger than Eternity as well, since he owns many dimensions. The fact is, Eternity doesn't really fight much. Usually, someone else has to attack him first. The whole Infinity Trilogy is the only time Eternity was really on the offense.

Not all dimensions have Eternity, anyway. Only divergent/alternate universes of 616 feature the abstracts we all know. Dimensions that exist within timelines (for instance, each "what if" will have it's own Dormammu, despite him owning many dimensions), will all be tied to one single abstract set, so in this aspect, we need to distinguish that although each dimension may be a universe, it is not an "earth", i.e. earth-616, earth-4082, etc.

I agree, it is tricky to judge what exactly causes an abstract to intervene. There are lots of times where they probably should have, however writers just don't like to use them. I mean, if you're writing "X-Men", you're going to want the X-Men to save the universe, not the Living Tribunal or Eternity. Dr. Strange can get away with it a bit more because abstracts are more like established characters there, and less like deus ex machinas.

KK, do you know if every Eternity from other universes are as strong as the 616 Eternity?

Originally posted by CortSether
He's superior to Zom.


No he's not, Zom is above. Eternity need help and still it wan't enough, until LT showed up and ended it.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
KK, do you know if every Eternity from other universes are as strong as the 616 Eternity?
It depends on the writer. Some writers portray them as being the exact same, just like "what if" wolverine will generally be the same as the 616 version, at least until things start to change over the story's course. Some writers write 616 Eternity as being more important than the others, as the "backbone" of multi-eternity, so to speak. Some writers have every universe (including 616) as equal aspects of Multi-Eternity.

As for pure strength, I don't remember there ever being a statement that if two eternities were to fight, 616 would win, even among writers that consider the 616 version more important. So my instinct is to assume beating one means you can beat another, generally.

Originally posted by the Darkone
No he's not, Zom is above. Eternity need help and still it wan't enough, until LT showed up and ended it.

Way to misinterpret what you read. Nowhere is it ever said that Eternity needed help or that Eternity and Zom ever actually battled.

i an't wait to see mikaboshi beat the hell out of everyone

Originally posted by King Kandy
Dr. Strange knows what he is talking about way more than you do. Eternity is more a mystical being than LT is, LT was shown using spells like, once or twice.

The fact that Eternity is above Shuma Gorath should be self evident. Dr. Strange's opinion aside, let's just look at how the two dealt with Strange while fighting him; Shuma actually fought Strange, magic against magic, and ultimately lost. In contrast, Eternity just decided that Strange wouldn't have his powers anymore and turned them off. Strange is a threat to Shuma, to Eternity Strange is literally nothing... he brushed Strange off like a fly. you dont know what you are talking about.
im telling what the LT said not some personal opinion if the vishanti engaged slorith the power out would of killed not only 616 eternity but all of them

dr strange was the same guy who didnt think chaos magic even existed

Originally posted by King Kandy
Also, I hope they aren't going to include Lord Chaos in some kind of "Chaos vs. Order" idea, because that's never been the way the pair has been portrayed. Whenever one became bigger than the other, they both considered that a really, really bad thing. Chaos and Order are enemies of Death, not enemies of each other. not directly, when krovac rules the universe chaos was seen dwarfing order in size and they was helpless to act

Originally posted by King Kandy
Kind of strange, based on Mikaboshi's origin so far you would think he's actually the same being as Oblivion. what about abraxas, entropy, unbeing, void sentry who all pretty much are very similiar?

Originally posted by the Darkone
No he's not, Zom is above. Eternity need help and still it wan't enough, until LT showed up and ended it. this. and i want to mention sisneg just before becoming omnipotent didnt want to engage shuma
alot of people already knows shuma and zom>>eternity, KK and CS are the only two guys ive seen argue other wise

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Nah they are just BFFs. Sharing space in the pitch black back in the day.


Did I mention how laem Mikaboshi is already? Probably did. abstracts can have aspects of themselvs

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
you dont know what you are talking about.
im telling what the LT said not some personal opinion if the vishanti engaged slorith the power out would of killed not only 616 eternity but all of them

No Colossus, KK generally knows his stuff. But you are right, I remember the scan you provided. Basically the Vishanti called the Tribunal and he came running. It was stated if they threw down, it would be omniversal level damage.

It should be noted too, that aside from 616, the Vishanti have their own universe governed by Order/Chaos/In-betweener. I've never seen any other power/principality/demon lord claim the same. For example, look at Dormammu, Mephisto, Gorath, etc... no abstractions, nothing. They are merely "realms", the Vishanti have a full universe they rule.



LOL good one.

@King Kandy

You said it was stated on panel that Eternity > Gorath? Or am I misremembering?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
seems like mikaboshi spawned the elder gods

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/57606/1442310-darkness.jpg

who knows he probably spawned shuma

No he didn't. That's Hera summing up the different eras of the Earth. How does Mikaboshi spawn the Elder Gods when apparently Mikaboshi existed before even Galactus' universe came into being? Gaea came after the Earth's formation.

This fight isn't conclusive until Chaos War is over. As of right now tho, Shuma Gorath takes it. It also made a puppet of Nightmare. The Vishanti battled SG to keep it from entering Earth. It took a nigh-omnipotent being like Sise-Neg to put it to sleep.

As for Eternity, Eternity is greater than either Zom or SG. If you wanna bring up SG having conquered dimensions, Eternity is consisted of dimensions and universe when Dormammu enter Eternity's being. Hell, Dormammu is the one who controls hundreds of dimensions. Where does it say anywhere that SG controls more than one dimension? He merged with his universe yes.

As for Dr. Strange, that bit about Chaos Magic was because Bendis was an idiot who didn't know what he was writing. Slott retconned it already into people (including Strange) denying chaos magic and Chthon's existence.

do you have the scan of the retcon

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
do you have the scan of the retcon

Yeah, too lazy to post them.

please post them

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1671/mightyavengers23mrsheph.th.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
Omg I just thought of something.

If Mikaobshi is so powerful, how the hell did the Japanese pantheon manage to imprison him?

I think Chaos War:Chaos King will venture into that.I heard it will explore both Mikaboshi and the Amatsu-kami's history or something.

Originally posted by zopzop
It should be noted too, that aside from 616, the Vishanti have their own universe governed by Order/Chaos/In-betweener. I've never seen any other power/principality/demon lord claim the same. For example, look at Dormammu, Mephisto, Gorath, etc... no abstractions, nothing. They are merely "realms", the Vishanti have a full universe they rule.
Incorrect. Chaos and Order govern the "sphere of magic" that is the laws for all magic users whatsoever, not simply the vishanti. Each Vishanti has it's own realm, not unlike those of the powerful demons you mentioned. For instance, when Galactus encountered Aggamoto, it was in Aggamoto's own, personal universe-the other two vishanti were not associated with it.

Originally posted by zopzop
@King Kandy

You said it was stated on panel that Eternity > Gorath? Or am I misremembering?
Strange never said that directly, but he did say that Eternity was the most powerful of all magical beings (and this was after meeting Shuma). And he certainly believed that, given how he reacts to the two; faced with Shuma he fights believing he can thwart him, faced with Eternity he fought, but knew from the beginning that he had no hope of winning.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1671/mightyavengers23mrsheph.th.jpg great scan thanx

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Where does it say anywhere that SG controls more than one dimension? He merged with his universe yes.

Shuma-Gorath tells Strange/Arioch on panel that he is ruler of hundreds of dimensions.

he might be the ruler of the cancerverse, seeing as a lot of them look just like shuma

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1671/mightyavengers23mrsheph.th.jpg

WHAT BOOK IS THIS FROM?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Incorrect. Chaos and Order govern the "sphere of magic" that is the laws for all magic users whatsoever, not simply the vishanti. Each Vishanti has it's own realm, not unlike those of the powerful demons you mentioned. For instance, when Galactus encountered Aggamoto, it was in Aggamoto's own, personal universe-the other two vishanti were not associated with it.

King Kandy, I'm almost 100% positive the LT said so when addressing the Silver Surfer in Silver Surfer vol III issue 31.




Ah ok. I was hoping for something else but......

Bah too late to edit my post, but King Kandy here's the Vishanti Universe image :
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3139/silversurfer198903121.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Well that's just incorrect that he said that, then. We have seen the universes of the Vishanti several times and it does not resemble the magic universe at all. Aggamoto himself has a universe separate, so it is clearly not just one universe they occupy. Not to mention, somehow the Vishanti have failed to ever show themselves in chaos and order's universe? I think you're probably taking it too literally, just because it is the "realm of the vishanti" doesn't mean they necessarily own the entire thing, just that they are noted dwellers of it.

also according to Mystic Arcana: The Marvel Tarot
the vishanti created the astral plane

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well that's just incorrect that he said that, then. We have seen the universes of the Vishanti several times and it does not resemble the magic universe at all.

Believe it or not this statement was used yet again but not by the LT, I think by Strange or the Ancient One (ie the Vishanti's universe and Order/Chaos/In-betweener working there).

I just can't place the issue.



Oshtur and Hoggoth have their own separate realms too that aren't necessarily part of the magic universe mentioned by the LT. Like Colossus said, Oshtur created the Astral Plane, it's mentioned in the Marvel Tarot. Agamotto has his own realm and Hoggoth the same. But the three of them when they form the Vishanti seem to operate in a whole new realm not connected to the realms of their individual personas.

Originally posted by CortSether
Shuma-Gorath tells Strange/Arioch on panel that he is ruler of hundreds of dimensions.

And so does Dormammu.

Originally posted by Warlord
WHAT BOOK IS THIS FROM?

Mighty Avengers 23.

thanks

I've checked too. it's the story where Hulk brawls Chthon.
something like what's about to come in Chaos War...

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And so does Dormammu.

That's all fine and dandy. Shuma-Gorath has hundreds more than one realm. You're not trying to say that Shuma-Gorath = Dormammu in power are you? Because that would be wrong ya know.

Originally posted by CortSether
That's all fine and dandy. Shuma-Gorath has hundreds more than one realm. You're not trying to say that Shuma-Gorath = Dormammu in power are you? Because that would be wrong ya know.
He's saying that obviously owning realms is no indication of power, because if that was true Dormammu WOULD = Shuma Gorath.

wasnt dormammu channeling the power of his realm more powerful than eternity?

No. Dormammu is always below Eternity (though he's beaten him due to special circumstances).

Originally posted by King Kandy
No. Dormammu is always below Eternity (though he's beaten him due to special circumstances). But in his realm he still is abstract correct?

All I know is certain mystic beings have owned Eternity before (like Nightmare). Just recently Eternity thanked Hank Pym from saving him from the threat of Chthon.

But back on topic, any updates with the whole Mikoboshi storyline? Has he "wowed" us with any new feats yet?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
But in his realm he still is abstract correct?
I haven't noticed him seeming particularly stronger in his own realm (being on Earth has depowered him, but that was because of something specific about him and the Earth, not a generic effect of being in a dimension outside his own).

Originally posted by zopzop
All I know is certain mystic beings have owned Eternity before (like Nightmare). Just recently Eternity thanked Hank Pym from saving him from the threat of Chthon.

But back on topic, any updates with the whole Mikoboshi storyline? Has he "wowed" us with any new feats yet?

not yet. next issue of chaos war due next week

Originally posted by zopzop
All I know is certain mystic beings have owned Eternity before (like Nightmare). Just recently Eternity thanked Hank Pym from saving him from the threat of Chthon.

But back on topic, any updates with the whole Mikoboshi storyline? Has he "wowed" us with any new feats yet? he killed nightmare

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
he killed nightmare

nightmare always gets killed though.

@Power Cosmic II

LOL tell me about it. There was a scan on this forum of Dr. Strange with Nightmare in a full nelson gasping for air.