Dart vs Auron

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



CosmicComet
http://www.legendofdragoon.fr/Image/fanart/dart2.jpg

vs

http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-01/art/ff10-auron.jpg

GrieverSquall
I think Dart would win if he uses his Dragoon Spirit.

I do not recall any feats from Auron...

You forgot to put Auron's pic BTW.

CosmicComet
I didn't forget, I was just too lazy to imageshack it. Instead I hotlinked. I can still see it.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8590/ff10auron.jpg


Anyway, Dragoon spirit would be overkill really.

GrieverSquall
Auron has almost no feats... but that doesn't mean he is weak, though. We can't really tell what he can actually do in a fight. Other than his battle animations, I do not recall anything, so it's really hard to debate with or against him.

I guess Dart has the upper hand if he uses his Dragoon form, mostly because Auron doesn't look like agile nor fast. But on the other hand, regular Dart can't fly, can't manipulate any type of energy nor cast magic. His Additions are just normal slashes with some cool names (like Volcano or Moon Strike), I mean, nothing special.

CosmicComet
Yeah, but Auron has no magic showings outside of gameplay mechanics either.

Dart has a lot of strength and durability feats, even a few speed/reaction feats. This is no dragoon form, seeing as Dart doesn't need it to win.

NemeBro
Why would you pit a featless character against one with pretty good feats? Think before you make a ****ing thread.

GrieverSquall
His Overdrives involves magical energy, like Dragon Fang, Banishing Blade or Tornado, whereas Dart's (in his regular form) doesn't. That's what I meant.

Okay, we agree that Dart (in his Dragoon form) would win. But how we do know that Dart (in his regular form) would win against someone who has no showings?

CosmicComet
Originally posted by NemeBro
Why would you pit a featless character against one with pretty good feats? Think before you make a ****ing thread.

I thought. Twas bored. And don't remember enough of FFX to be sure that I was right in my intial conclusion anyway, perhaps someone could have proven me wrong.

GrieverSquall
Respond to my previous post.

TheAuraAngel
Not that I really care, as Dart seems more like the type of character I'd support anyway, but doesn't Auron and the FFX party like, run through a field of lightning at one point? huh

Just saying that could be a good feat...if properly wanked.

CosmicComet
There's nothing to respond to as the question is not worded accurately.

Dart is the baseline here, not Auron. Can Auron, who it seems is hard to place, beat Dart who we can place?

That was the purpose of the thread, as I don't remember much of Auron.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
doesn't Auron and the FFX party like, run through a field of lightning at one point? huh

Just saying that could be a good feat...if properly wanked.

Well, at least that's something. But... What that shows anyway?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
There's nothing to respond to as the question is not worded accurately.

Dart is the baseline here, not Auron. Can Auron, who it seems is hard to place, beat Dart who we can place?

That was the purpose of the thread, as I don't remember much of Auron.

I never said that Auron would beat Dart. You implied Dart would beat Auron, if I am not mistaken. I just ask, how do we know that Dart would win when we never get to see what Auron is capable of?

For example, you can say that Dart wins based on what Auron IS capable of, that's a valid argument. But you can't say Auron is weaker than Dart because Auron has no showings.

That's like saying I'm stronger than a guy because that guy hasn't shown to be stronger than me. That guy can't probably be stronger, but the reasoning used to reach said conclusion is fallacious.

CosmicComet
This does not require an external analogy as the situation is simple as per the standards we've set on this subforum; Winners can be awarded as a means of default.

We have here two characters with similar enough placements as great swordsmen in their respective worlds. Its a logical match up thus. One has great feats to the OP's knowledge, one is more hazy to the OP, but from the basic recollection was not out of the realm for the former character to beat within specified parameters.

Basically, Dart can/does win by default if Auron does not have an argument for him.

GrieverSquall
It isn't any external analogy, it's logic. You've claimed regular Dart is stronger than Auron, right? What's your argument?

I'm just saying that we never get to know Auron's true abilities besides his Overdrives. So we can neither say he wins or loses for that. Auron's potential or whatever is totally unknown for us, unless someone provide something concerning his speed, strength, etc, which I highly doubt anyway.

That's just wrong, if you claim Dart would win, then you should back up the claim. You can't say Dart wins because Auron has no arguments going for him, mostly because Dart does not have any argument going for him either. Neither you can say Dart has feats, Auron doesn't, thus Dart wins, that IS a fallacious argument. Back up your claim first.

TacDavey
GreiverSquall is right, in this case. You cannot claim someone is stronger than another because they have feats and the other doesn't. If Auron truly has no means for gauging his abilities, then we simply cannot know.

That's an "argument from ignorance" fallacy. You're basically arguing that Auron isn't stronger because you can't show otherwise. But obviously the simple fact that there is no evidence supporting something does NOT make the opposite true.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
It isn't any external analogy, it's logic. You've claimed regular Dart is stronger than Auron, right? What's your argument?

I'm just saying that we never get to know Auron's true abilities besides his Overdrives. So we can neither say he wins or loses for that. Auron's potential or whatever is totally unknown for us, unless someone provide something concerning his speed, strength, etc, which I highly doubt anyway.

That's just wrong, if you claim Dart would win, then you should back up the claim. You can't say Dart wins because Auron has no arguments going for him, mostly because Dart does not have any argument going for him either. Neither you can say Dart has feats, Auron doesn't, thus Dart wins, that IS a fallacious argument. Back up your claim first.

Jesus Christ. This is not difficult.

-Lets see what I said in the beginning, I said Dart could win without the Dragoon form yes? Why? Because I knew Auron's relative durability levels before hand, so Dart being able to hit Auron was the only requisite required to know that victory was possible in the stipulation I set.

-Your analogy, (a structure of logic in the first place) is inapplicable to this situation. Auron is not some random individual you or I know nothing about and can only conjecture about.

He HAS done things, we see him do things the entire game, its just that nothing is impressive enough to warrant being labeled a feat. Thus is his curse.

-We also have a framework to work with, Tidus and Wakka have some nice peak human + agility levels due to them being high level blitz ball players. Auron is of course, is not meant to be as agile as them as his stats and showings will reflect.

-The only fallacious thing is attributing him to have some hidden 'potential' when his depictions do not suggest that there is any. He was not holding back during his showings or had any reference to make them appear any greater than what a normal human could theoretically do. For example, when he attacked Yunalesca, he was not running any faster than possible for a human or swinging his likely ~4.5 kilogram sword any faster than would be expected of an in-shape human. He was then promptly brought down by a small blast. (That was the durability level I kept in mind with my original statement by the way)

That's ultimately what people mean when they call Auron 'featless'. He's not an unknown quantity, it's just what he does isn't impressive. The benefit of the doubt is why he even gets the peak human category at all (overall, not everything about him is peak) it seems, as most will reason that an average human will not be able to do his job.

Anyway, this thread is more or less done. This was posted on another forum with more posts as well and none of them put Auron's showings above peak human either. I came in hazy, but it seems I wasn't missing anything from him.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by CosmicComet
-Your analogy, (a structure of logic in the first place) is inapplicable to this situation. Auron is not some random individual you or I know nothing about and can only conjecture about. He HAS done things, we see him do things the entire game, its just that nothing is impressive enough to warrant being labeled a feat. Thus is his curse.

-We also have a framework to work with, Tidus and Wakka have some nice peak human + agility levels due to them being high level blitz ball players. Auron is of course, is not meant to be as agile as them as his stats and showings will reflect.

Friend, this IS a fight. If it's not something related to his potential as a fighter, then what Auron supposedly does is irrelevant. We just know he's an experienced swordsman and a Guardian, but it's not something very useful. We don't have an accurate frame of reference to gauge his abilities other than his Overdrives. A feat is not necessarily nor always related to someone's strengths either. A feat can be considered as a different type of achievement.

Auron is not portrayed to be as agile as Tidus. However, despite of that, Auron is (at the beginning of the game) stronger and years more experienced in combat than him. Auron is portrayed as Tidus' mentor, and the one who gave him his first sword. Plus, did Auron had any kind of trouble when Sin attacked Zanarkand? Apparently he was doing just fine, is Tidus the one who almost gets killed in the process.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
-The only fallacious thing is attributing him to have some hidden 'potential' when his depictions do not suggest that there is any. He was not holding back during his showings or had any reference to make them appear any greater than what a normal human could theoretically do. For example, when he attacked Yunalesca, he was not running any faster than possible for a human or swinging his likely ~4.5 kilogram sword any faster than would be expected of an in-shape human. He was then promptly brought down by a small blast. (That was the durability level I kept in mind with my original statement by the way)

-Lets see what I said in the beginning, I said Dart could win without the Dragoon form yes? Why? Because I knew Auron's relative durability levels before hand, so Dart being able to hit Auron was the only requisite required to know that victory was possible in the stipulation I set.

Who said something about a 'hidden potential'? I believe I said that claiming someone wins over another simply for the lack of showings, it's an invalid argument, THAT WAS ALL. Yunalesca is damn powerful and Auron was facing her by himself, if Auron wasn't holding back, what makes you think she was? We just likely see the end of that battle and the whole thing is in slow-motion, so I dunno why you claim stuff about his speed. Plus, wasn't Auron like 10 years younger? How do you know he's still as strong as he used to be in that occasion?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
That's ultimately what people mean when they call Auron 'featless'. He's not an unknown quantity, it's just what he does isn't impressive. The benefit of the doubt is why he even gets the peak human category at all (overall, not everything about him is peak) it seems, as most will reason that an average human will not be able to do his job.

And what he DOES? He does a bunch of things, every character, even the most insignificant, is seen in screen doing 'something', but if it's not something concerning the topic at hand, then is irrelevant, some characters may do battle-related stuff outside gameplay, but others doesn't. I am not claiming Auron would win (because you seem to think I do), I just disagree with the kind of argument you're pulling to combat him. In order to claim Dart is... let's say... 'physically stronger' than Auron, we require something that shows both character's physical strength, you can't say Dart has a strength feat, Auron doesn't, thus Dart is stronger, you just can't. The: 'Dart has feats, Auron doesn't', thus Dart wins' line of reasoning is fallacious. End of story.

mikeydude
Oh my, not meaning to bump old threads. But this was left on a horrible note.
Being a fan of both of these games, it makes me angry that its been left like this.

With all seriousness how is Auron not stronger than Dart?
Auron: Carrying a Long, Huge ass Two handed sword. (oh I forgot to add with ease.)
Dart: Has this pewny looking sword comparing it to Aurons.
its one handed. and Dart can carry it with ease as well.
Auron handles his sword like a champ, because if you ever watched him attack something, its like he slices it as if he is slicing butter.
Dart almost has trouble hitting his targets. plus when playing that game anyway its on a time-guided system. So you give him like 2-5 shots to Auron's one.

Plus what feats does Dart have besides his Dragoon form?
Auron if Gone though his Sphere grid Learns Silencing shot and junk like that. What can Dart put up with against that?

Auron's speed is actually fast, when you encounter him in the Blitzball stadium he Runs, jumps about 100 feet or so and lands like he just hopped off of the back of a truck.
doesnt even have to put a hand on the ground for stability.
Can Dart do that?


Sooooo many problems.

LLLLLink
Dart's sword is puny? Please. How about some real facts, like how Dart is wearing armor and Auron isn't.
Also, Dart beat Lloyd. 'Nuff said.

NemeBro
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Dart's sword is puny? Please. How about some real facts, like how Dart is wearing armor and Auron isn't.
Also, Dart beat Lloyd. 'Nuff said. Pretty much nothing you said, like the poster above you, means a thing without elaboration.

Dart does win though. Due to feats such as taking powerful explosions with little or no injury, being shown to react to Lloyd's super speed, and I recall a feat that made him class 30ish or so.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by NemeBro
Pretty much nothing you said, like the poster above you, means a thing without elaboration.


Why would anyone be posting who has no concept of either character?

NemeBro
Originally posted by LLLLLink
Why would anyone be posting who has no concept of either character? I don't know, why do people **** hookers when it is generally bad for you?

Because it feels really, really good.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by NemeBro
Pretty much nothing you said, like the poster above you, means a thing without elaboration.

Dart does win though. Due to feats such as taking powerful explosions with little or no injury, being shown to react to Lloyd's super speed, and I recall a feat that made him class 30ish or so.

Dart tanked powerful explosions? Refresh my memory. And show me a video of Dart reacting to Lloyd's super-speed, please.

Honestly, I've played The Legend Of Dragoon like hundred of times and I cannot recall anything of what you've said here.

As for the swords, judging by their sizes, Auron's sword seems to be a lot heavier, as is twice the size of Dart's normal sword.

NemeBro
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Dart tanked powerful explosions? Refresh my memory. And show me a video of Dart reacting to Lloyd's super-speed, please.

Honestly, I've played The Legend Of Dragoon like hundred of times and I cannot recall anything of what you've said here.

As for the swords, judging by their sizes, Auron's sword seems to be a lot heavier, as is twice the size of Dart's normal sword. Nah.

I'm semi-retired.

Cosmic Comet may provide what you ask when he posts. Or maybe not.

CosmicComet
-Dart tanked plenty of explosions as a Dragoon. At base he tanked several slashes from Feyrbrand, who was strong enough to knock down trees without actual effort and shake a small mountain/mesa with headbutts, ran into a haymaker from Kongol who has class 100 strength, and tanked a Final Burst attack from Melbu Zieg in Red Dragoon form.

--Of course, expect haphazard attempts at downplaying these feats as a consequence of Griever's inferiority complex that comes from his preferred choice in RPG hero being Squall, a nigh featless character, as is the sad fate of many other RPG characters. Hence his extreme reluctance to declare Auron, another nigh featless RPG character, as the loser. Gotta admire the consistency.

-Dart attacked Lloyd without any assistance in two different cutscenes. In battle, Lloyd can still dodge individual attacks in the same fashion as in the 1st disc fight, but can no longer do it anywhere near 100% of the time. Ergo this is a demonstrative improvement in relative speed. Moreso, by powerscaling Haschel reacts to and defeats someone far faster than Lloyd in a much later part of the game. Dart also tags and reacts to Dragoon form Melbu Zieg on two different occasions, someone also much higher up than Lloyd--especially in Dragoon form going by what we know of Dragoon speeds and other power ups.

Auron loses, he can't even be given feats by osmosis --just from fighting with the team--because none of the bosses they fight are demonstratively very durable to give him a plausible strength value, and none of them are demonstratively fast to give him a plausible reaction speed value etc. etc.

TacDavey
*ahem*

Once more, if a character does not have any way of knowing their strength, that doesn't mean they loose. It just means we can't say for certain who would win.

Let's not all hop on the Argument for Ignorance fallacy bandwagon like so many others on KMC...

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
*ahem*

Once more, if a character does not have any way of knowing their strength, that doesn't mean they loose. It just means we can't say for certain who would win.

Let's not all hop on the Argument for Ignorance fallacy bandwagon like so many others on KMC... No but we can assume that they would probably lose when faced with a character who has very good feats relative to nearly every character shown in the opposition's series.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by CosmicComet
-Dart tanked plenty of explosions as a Dragoon. At base he tanked several slashes from Feyrbrand, who was strong enough to knock down trees without actual effort and shake a small mountain/mesa with headbutts, ran into a haymaker from Kongol who has class 100 strength, and tanked a Final Burst attack from Melbu Zieg in Red Dragoon form.

--Of course, expect haphazard attempts at downplaying these feats as a consequence of Griever's inferiority complex that comes from his preferred choice in RPG hero being Squall, a nigh featless character, as is the sad fate of many other RPG characters. Hence his extreme reluctance to declare Auron, another nigh featless RPG character, as the loser. Gotta admire the consistency.

-Dart attacked Lloyd without any assistance in two different cutscenes. In battle, Lloyd can still dodge individual attacks in the same fashion as in the 1st disc fight, but can no longer do it anywhere near 100% of the time. Ergo this is a demonstrative improvement in relative speed. Moreso, by powerscaling Haschel reacts to and defeats someone far faster than Lloyd in a much later part of the game. Dart also tags and reacts to Dragoon form Melbu Zieg on two different occasions, someone also much higher up than Lloyd--especially in Dragoon form going by what we know of Dragoon speeds and other power ups.

Auron loses, he can't even be given feats by osmosis --just from fighting with the team--because none of the bosses they fight are demonstratively very durable to give him a plausible strength value, and none of them are demonstratively fast to give him a plausible reaction speed value etc. etc.

Forgot to add; as for the class 30ish feat, as far as lifting strength there is none, but he does knock back a complete form virage, which was heavy enough to cause a floating boulder as big as itself to spin around several times when it fell on it.
m_WaBDK5Wa4
^4:40-5:48
And he was able to slash into the Divine Dragon, who's head and neck alone are heavy enough to cause giant earthquake like upheavals, so its immensely dense.
FGV3jLM6j-o
^6:58-7:32



You two need to stop with the haphazard usage of the word fallacy. It sounds amateurish and in the end does not serve to better the posts.

What you say has no application here. Auron is not an unknown quantity. We have 40+ hours of knowledge of Auron from a game, knowledge of the parameters of his abilities from the explicit visuals of the game including parameters set by other characters like Tidus, Wakka and even Kimahri. What they tell us is that in terms of fictional characters he's simply not that impressive. By courtesy of believability, we get to say he's peak human, because any lower than that would not be plausible for him to complete the game's story without dying.

It would have more application if it was Dart vs some Unseen god of FFX.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Dart tanked plenty of explosions as a Dragoon. At base he tanked several slashes from Feyrbrand, who was strong enough to knock down trees without actual effort and shake a small mountain/mesa with headbutts, ran into a haymaker from Kongol who has class 100 strength, and tanked a Final Burst attack from Melbu Zieg in Red Dragoon form.

Ok, let me get this straight, Dart TANKED SEVERAL SLASHES? Dart don't have skin of steel, last I checked. He's wearing a damn broad armor and could barely BLOCK TWO HITS with his sword, he's being pushed away and being hurt by two slow claws. Did you miss the part where Dart states "ahh! I gotta do something or I'll get killed"? Feyrbrand knocked down trees in its course and with his weight, paws and then slashed a tree with all of its claws. For a monster of that size isn't so impressive to see him knocking down trees. As for Kongol, didn't Dart took a SINGLE punch and was immediately out of combat? Just asking. And show me Dart tanking Final Burst because I remember Dart commenting on the attack, but I never saw him tanking it. Either way, it's a featless attack, as it occurs in gameplay.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Dart attacked Lloyd without any assistance in two different cutscenes. In battle, Lloyd can still dodge individual attacks in the same fashion as in the 1st disc fight, but can no longer do it anywhere near 100% of the time. Ergo this is a demonstrative improvement in relative speed. Moreso, by powerscaling Haschel reacts to and defeats someone far faster than Lloyd in a much later part of the game. Dart also tags and reacts to Dragoon form Melbu Zieg on two different occasions, someone also much higher up than Lloyd--especially in Dragoon form going by what we know of Dragoon speeds and other power ups.

Dart defeated Lloyd and Melbu with the help of his teammates canonically. The only enemies Dart defeated by himself were the guys from the tournament. And I never saw Dart having 'assistance' in any cutscene after a fight anyway, so that point has no point. Your 'argument' is simply absurd, just because the rest of the party wasn't animated during the scene AFTER the fight doesn't mean they didn't help DURING the fight. It's pretty clear you're grasping at straws. The characters don't need to be animated in order to know they are present. It's a game, not Anime. Never mind the fact that the party is shown when Dart attempts to attack Lloyd in the end of the battle and they are shown also in the EXP screen. That's aside. Now, we have cutscenes of Dragoons fighting and none of them moves at Mach speed, they can be hurt by normal speed attacks, they aren't Dragon Ball Z characters. Face it, they don't possess the powers you want them to possess. And comparing Dart to Lloyd is totally ridiculous. Lloyd is a Wingly, if you played the game you should know that Winglies are far superior to humans, only Dragoons are shown to be actually rivals for them, in canon. Dart is peak human.

Hell, Wink could pretty much run between an attack to protect Lloyd and she was as fast as Dart. There's no super-speed involved AT ALL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGhIiSi_qnA

Originally posted by CosmicComet
he does knock back a complete form virage

And he was able to slash into the Divine Dragon, who's head and neck alone are heavy enough to cause giant earthquake like upheavals, so its immensely dense

The Virage did some steps back because he was dying and was terribly weak after the battle, remember the entire party beat him? And then he fell once Shana emanated her light.

The only one that slashed through the Divine Dragon was Lloyd using the Dragon Buster.
And your proof for every of these points is that the characters fought bosses, so they could hurt them at some point. By that logic, Auron could hurt Sin, you know, the being who was capable of causing enormous hurricanes, gravitational problems in space as well as erasing great part of the planet in a blink of an eye. And who is like ten times bigger than the Fahrenheit. He fought it alongside the team, therefore, Auron could hurt Sin.

Auron is stronger than Tidus and it is demonstrated during their little race through monsters in Zanarkand. Auron gave a sword to Tidus, which was pretty heavy for him to even hold with both hands. It was heavy for Tidus when when we know he knocked out a Blitzball player from the Blitzball stadium several meters away. On the other hand, Auron was holding that sword as if he were holding a light stick. As for Dart, well... he couldn't bring down a broken tree with his sword because apparently 'the blade won't last with this.' He needed an AXE, and struggled when lifting it and while using it. And that happens entirely OUTSIDE GAMEPLAY whereas most of your arguments comes from gameplay stances. I wanna see what kind of excuses you will post now. laughing out loud

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Of course, expect haphazard attempts at downplaying these feats as a consequence of Griever's inferiority complex that comes from his preferred choice in RPG hero being Squall, a nigh featless character, as is the sad fate of many other RPG characters. Hence his extreme reluctance to declare Auron, another nigh featless RPG character, as the loser. Gotta admire the consistency.

You two need to stop with the haphazard usage of the word fallacy. It sounds amateurish and in the end does not serve to better the posts.

Nice way of debating. That's called Appeal To Motive. You "refute" my stance by bringing up a possible motive for my argumentation or irrelevant points such as claiming 'I like Squall', therefore I "downplay feats". Don't be so emotionally attached to videogame characters. Why don't you focus on backing up your claims instead of accusing me? Squall has nothing to do with anything and I love The Legend Of Dragoon. So stop being childish and stop taking scenes out of context, because you see a guy dodging some swords slashes then you jump to 'he has super-speed'.

And if you don't know the meaning of some fallacies nor you have enough knowledge about them, I suggest you to learn some of the most basic logical fallacies, believe me, it'll help you to at least not commit them so often.

CosmicComet
I will be responding to that shitty post soon enough, don't you worry. smile

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
No but we can assume that they would probably lose when faced with a character who has very good feats relative to nearly every character shown in the opposition's series.

Then that should be the argument.

"Character A wins because Character B is the same level as those around him and those around him are weaker."

Then you provide evidence for that line of reasoning.

"Character A wins because Character B isn't shown doing much"

Is not a valid argument.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't know, why do people **** hookers when it is generally bad for you?

Because it feels really, really good.

I like bread.

wakkawakkawakka
I don't know about this Dart person but Auron did die in his game. Plus he doesn't really have a whole lot of showing that could really help his case in quite a few battles he's put in.

LLLLLink
Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
I don't know about this Dart person but Auron did die in his game. Plus he doesn't really have a whole lot of showing that could really help his case in quite a few battles he's put in.

Trust me, Dart has this in the bag handily. Might I recommend that you pick up/download a copy of Legend of Dragoon for PSX? One of the best RPGs I've ever played.

CosmicComet

CosmicComet

CosmicComet

CosmicComet

CosmicComet

CosmicComet

CosmicComet

CosmicComet

GrieverSquall

Enfathiel
I love FF but Auron is too slow and featless.

Also sorry but i myself lol at the idea of AC not being superhuman when Cloud was cutting skyscrapers, moving faster than lightning, tanking bahamut`s Tremor flare, flying, so on....

TacDavey
eek

Yeah... I'm giving it to CosmicComit on this one. Not necessarily because his points refute the opposition, but because absolutely NO ONE is going to have the time or energy to read through that response and then respond back.

Well... I guess that's one way to win a debate... laughing

Enfathiel
Also just one thing to point out;

I wouldn't try and use the OBD wiki as proof. For one an agreement is almost never reached the wiki editor just pics the character he likes most and posts it as if he won when there wans't even a deciding argument or concession.

And it's never a good thing to use other forum's opinions as proof. Because first people think differently in between forums. Second is because this forum has to decide by it's self. It's borderline retarded to just concede to a bigger forum's opinion when they have no argument.

Nevertheless Dartz wins this.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by TacDavey
eek

Yeah... I'm giving it to CosmicComit on this one. Not necessarily because his points refute the opposition, but because absolutely NO ONE is going to have the time or energy to read through that response and then respond back.

Well... I guess that's one way to win a debate... laughing

Damn right. laughing

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Also sorry but i myself lol at the idea of AC not being superhuman when Cloud was cutting skyscrapers, moving faster than lightning, tanking bahamut`s Tremor flare, flying, so on....

Cloud is super-human. But most fans use Advent Children to prove Cloud's superiority over the rest of the Final Fantasy characters.

EDIT: I don't know how Cloud and Final Fantasy are relevant in this thread, though...

Enfathiel
Cloud is super-human. But most fans use Advent Children to prove Cloud's superiority over the rest of the Final Fantasy characters.

EDIT: I don't know how Cloud and Final Fantasy are relevant in this thread, though...

Not to sound spiteful or anything but AC does give Cloud the best feats of well any FF character in terms of speed and strength.

I mean he didn't show anything particularly powerful in VII, the best i remember was him overpowering Seph in a spiritual battle which would probably make him the strongest willed protagonist of all but that's it.

In AC and the rest of the compilation though.....they gave FFVII's SOLDIERS physical powers that were not shown for any other FF character in speed and strenght.

I mean jesus a half dead Cloud one-shotted a bahamut with a climhazzard and moved faster than a lightning bolt....

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Enfathiel
Also just one thing to point out;

I wouldn't try and use the OBD wiki as proof. For one an agreement is almost never reached the wiki editor just pics the character he likes most and posts it as if he won when there wans't even a deciding argument or concession.

And it's never a good thing to use other forum's opinions as proof. Because first people think differently in between forums. Second is because this forum has to decide by it's self. It's borderline retarded to just concede to a bigger forum's opinion when they have no argument.

Nevertheless Dartz wins this.

That was never ever the point though.

It's not proof of a victory, nor was it presented as that, it was simply addressing the general terms that are agreed upon for entering in the wiki. And in this case it was 3 pages of people agreeing on Dart and no one giving an argument for Auron.

I was originally asked why Auron was listed as a victory for Dart on the wiki in a challenging manner. And I answered it.



edit: Are the pics not showing up for anyone?

Enfathiel
Originally posted by CosmicComet
That was never ever the point though.

It's not proof of a victory, nor was it presented as that, it was simply addressing the general terms that are agreed upon for entering in the wiki. And in this case it was 3 pages of people agreeing on Dart and no one giving an argument for Auron.

I was originally asked why Auron was listed as a victory for Dart on the wiki in a challenging manner. And I answered it.



edit: Are the pics not showing up for anyone?

No problem but Auron never really had a chance.

The problem with that wiki is that even undecided matches are posted as victories for some. Just wanted to warn some of that.

Yea i can't for some reason see imageshack imgs.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by CosmicComet
And in this case it was 3 pages of people agreeing on Dart and no one giving an argument for Auron.

That's an appeal to popularity fallacy... and I gave arguments for Auron. You were the only one giving arguments for Dart. erm

Either way I admit Dart Dragoon is > Auron.

Originally posted by Enfathiel
Not to sound spiteful or anything but AC does give Cloud the best feats of well any FF character in terms of speed and strength.

I mean he didn't show anything particularly powerful in VII, the best i remember was him overpowering Seph in a spiritual battle which would probably make him the strongest willed protagonist of all but that's it.

In AC and the rest of the compilation though.....they gave FFVII's SOLDIERS physical powers that were not shown for any other FF character in speed and strenght.

I mean jesus a half dead Cloud one-shotted a bahamut with a climhazzard and moved faster than a lightning bolt....


If we go by AC alone, I'd have to agree. Cloud is the strongest FF character...

Enfathiel
It's just better to keep each forum's shit separated.

I posted on the OBD a long time ago and they aren't particularly fond on more popular RPG's such as FF.

But they are extremely fond of these more obscure RPGs such as Legends of Dragoon. Not saying that legend of dragoon is obscure but it's certainly less know than FF.

So yes Squall is right, it is an appeal to popularity fallacy.

GrieverSquall
Hey, Enfathiel. You are from NF, right?

Enfathiel
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Hey, Enfathiel. You are from NF, right?

I was. I left and then stopped posting for a very long time.

I'm just saying using their opinions, which are as biased as everyone else's is an appeal to popularity on a forum that prefers these certain RPGS.

It's just how their mentality works there. Nothing more.

CosmicComet
I addressed this popular fallacy accusation already Enfathiel.

I didn't say it was right, wrong, or state it as proof of my argument--(why would that somehow suffice as proof when I'm actually debating at such length anyway?), I simply said why Auron gets to be listed as a victory for Dart due to consensus model that exists for adding it. Auron had no argument saying he could win with X feat or X attribute. There was none of that.

And I gotta fix the images somehow.

Enfathiel
Originally posted by CosmicComet
I addressed this popular fallacy accusation already Enfathiel.

I didn't say it was right, wrong, or state it as proof of my argument--(why would that somehow suffice as proof when I'm actually debating at such length anyway?), I simply said why Auron gets to be listed as a victory for Dart due to consensus model that exists for adding it. Auron had no argument saying he could win with X feat or X attribute. There was none of that.

And I gotta fix the images somehow.

What is this model you talk about? I just don't understand why another forum's consensus was even stated here, that's all. This sin't necessarily on this account , as Auron would never win, but in other future accounts that might occur.

Nevertheless Auron never really had a chance to win, base or dragoon.

I can't make my Image shack appear either. They just show up as a frozen frog that 's laughing at me.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by CosmicComet
I addressed this popular fallacy accusation already Enfathiel.

I didn't say it was right, wrong, or state it as proof of my argument--(why would that somehow suffice as proof when I'm actually debating at such length anyway?), I simply said why Auron gets to be listed as a victory for Dart due to consensus model that exists for adding it. Auron had no argument saying he could win with X feat or X attribute. There was none of that.

And I gotta fix the images somehow.

You can ''address'' a fallacy by simply not committing it. And you're still like... committing it. By saying everyone agreed with you, thus Dart wins. Some may agree with Dart's 'feats', I'm afraid others won't. So far you were the only one making arguments for Dart, and as I said, I disagree with most of them. I gave reasons for that purpose. Just because I won't respond to your posts now, doesn't mean I don't have counter arguments for them. I have already proved that when I didn't reply back in NF but I did replied here.

TheAuraAngel
So....Auron got anything going for him except for the slight possibility of being a lightning timer?

Enfathiel
Unfortunately he's not a lightning timer. They went running from pole to pole in the lightning fields, in the actual story they never really dodged lightning in cut-scene. It was only a minigame. There were other minigames like that in FF VII and V i think......that would make people like Riku or Barret mach 300+ which is completely ludicrous IMO.

The only hero who i know has legitimately dodged lightning and has consistent speed to back it up is DoC Cloud.

GrieverSquall
Well, he's stronger than Tidus. At least in the beginning of the game, which says a lot. There aren't much feats for Auron to be honest.

Enfathiel
Yea, the heroes with the best feats are in VII, IX and VIII.

GrieverSquall
Well, in FFV Ex-Death has awesome speed feats.

Enfathiel
Ex-death is by far the strongest villain tied with Ultimecia.

He really dosen't need feats since he is a Universe level threat.

PS: What speed feats are you talking about?

GrieverSquall
I'm talking about his base form.

The ones when he confronts that turtle... I don't remember its name.
Ghido?

Enfathiel
What speed feats are those?

I don't remember anything particularly impressive....

Meh...it's been too long.

GrieverSquall
KhKKjm0wzX8

1:22 to 1:50

CosmicComet
Except I didn't commit to any fallacy. smile

It's just an example of you trying to shoehorn a term for a simple answer to a challenging question that you yourself made, an answer that is in no way shape or form important/or influential as argumentative tool for me when I've said so much on my own, I simply brought it back up to demonstrate your novice level fallacy accusation spamming style that has no substance compared to what I deliver. It was an aside answer to small question, nothing more.

And I've addressed everything you said here, disagree with the feats, fine, you've still yet to demonstrate the actual ability to REBUKE (or even attempt to) what I've established as quantifiable feats.

And what did you respond to in the NF thread, neglect to say and then address here? Nothing. You didn't even attempt to respond to anything but the Lloyd issue (which isn't even close to anything that would be a make or break issue for Dart winning) there and had absolutely no counter-argument to the rest of my NF multi-post. And in this thread, all you had was a tiny post that did nothing but mildly disagree with a few lines to some things, no 'counter-argument' whatsoever--that would require substance, which your posts don't have much of. I'm not going to repeat myself on things my multi-post already addressed in detail.

You've don't have anything for me.

back to ignore for you.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Except I didn't commit to any fallacy. smile

It's just an example of you trying to shoehorn a term for a simple answer to a challenging question that you yourself made, an answer that is in no way shape or form important as argumentative tool for me when I've said so much on my own, I simply brought it back up to demonstrate your novice level fallacy accusation spamming style that has no substance compared to what I deliver.

And I've addressed everything you said here, disagree with the feats, fine, you've still yet demonstrate the actual ability to REBUKE (or even attempt to) what I've established as quantifiable feats.

And what did you respond to in the NF thread, neglect to say and then address here? Nothing. You didn't even attempt to respond to anything but the Lloyd issue (which isn't even close to anything that would be a make or break issue for Dart winning) there and had absolutely no counter-argument to the rest of my NF post. And in this thread, all you had was a tiny post that did nothing but mildly disagree with a few lines to somethings, no 'counter-argument' whatsoever--that would require substance, which your posts don't have much of. I'm not going to repeat myself on things my multi-post already addressed in detail.

You've don't have anything for me.

back to ignore for you.

No? Do I have to quote what you said? Because you pretty much admitted that since most users agreed with Dart's victory, then he wins. So I guess you DID commit the fallacy. And so far you were the only one making arguments for him. And I was the only one actually arguing with you, and not necessarily for Auron, simply refuting some of Dart's ''feats'' that I didn't agree with, because I've played the game, so I know about it. That's it. Don't be angry just because someone disagrees with you.

As for rebuke your posts, I have already said it's too long, honestly I don't have time to do it. It doesn't mean I can't because I lack arguments. Just pointing that out for ya. The same goes for your 6-long post back in NF.

And of course I disagree with you, we have different ways of debating, and I don't usually use gameplay. Oh well.

Enfathiel
Originally posted by GrieverSquall
KhKKjm0wzX8

1:22 to 1:50

Oh yea this is a cool speed feat.

Except i can't quantify it preoperly because we don't really lmow how fast that was. Like a few meters in a second?

Still people in other FF actualy have supersonic feats, making them 760mph(mach 1) fast at least.

Edit:

Also Cosmic, did you really have to post an entire respect thread for this?

Really that is ridiculously excessive and you don't win the argument because your points are great, you win it because no one is bothered enough to respond to an entire page of text.

That is a ridiculous and frankly bad form of debating. No one is goign to respond to that leviathan of text not because it is irrefutable but because it would just take too much time =/

And lol at them being massively hypersonic in CQC.

They have not shown any hypersonic combat. Flying up the atmosphere is a travel speed feat.

CosmicComet
-Oh? So you're saying that you'll be able to find a quote where I stated that Dart beats Auron because a lot of people said so and then never had an actual argument of my own? Or will you only find the actual quote, which stated (at the very opening of the post and nothing after) nothing more than Auron gets to be added as a victory for Dart on the OBD wiki because a lot of people said so--which then immediately ends and I get to my actual argument bit?

I'll save you the trouble and repost the quote as it specifically relates to Dart vs Auron being added as a victory for the former on the wiki:
you
By the way, I've noticed you've put your hands on Dart's page on the OBD Wiki. According to what I have read so far, it is unmistakable your edit. Y'know, your own version of the character's capabilities. Never mind you linked ""Dart's victories"" to your own threads. Very mature of you, I must add. Although I do expect better things from you soon, my lord.

vs

me
And yeah, if you've read this thread you'll see the point of why this was listed as a victory. Other than one poster, who was joking, everyone has called it a victory for Dart.

That was all that I said on that front. That's it.

Dart beats Auron simply due to better feats. Dart got Auron as a victory for the OBD wiki because no one could make a case for Auron beating Dart on any feat front. The latter is not even important for the actual debate portion. Do you -somehow- understand the distinction better now? I believe not.


-Sure buddy. You keep telling yourself that you have responses lined up for the simple to comprehend quantifications I've made, while you come up with figures like 1 mile being equivalent to 1400 kilometers and the moon being only a mile deep. (again, you aren't too bright are you?)


-Oh what a coincidence. I don't use gameplay either. I only use canon. I'm glad we agree on something. smile

But yeah, I've done your work for you. No more false ends between us now that the pretense of me distorting a past statement is displayed plainly as false.

CosmicComet
No, the points are good AND he can't refute it. It's simply my debate style to show as many examples as possible to those not in the actual debate.


'Travel feat'? Expected counterpoint and one that is very easy to brush aside. That would only be viable as a counter if they weren't actually able to move their limbs or otherwise react to things while going at full speeds and only used it to go quickly from point A to point B in a very linear fashion that would require no steering.

Not the case here: Kongol is able to react in time to punch the incoming meteor which is fast in and of itself, but he's also making the time even shorter by flying at full speed to meet it head on. The Dragoons are also able to maneuver around the floating rocks inside the moon while they were jetting it out of there trying to make it to safety as well, and at those speeds they ended up getting dozens of miles away in seconds.

GrieverSquall
Originally posted by CosmicComet
-Oh? So you're saying that you'll be able to find a quote where I stated that Dart beats Auron because a lot of people said so and then never had an actual argument of my own? Or will you only find the actual quote, which stated (at the very opening of the post and nothing after) nothing more than Auron gets to be added as a victory for Dart on the OBD wiki because a lot of people said so--which then immediately ends and I get to my actual argument bit?

I'll save you the trouble and repost the quote as it specifically relates to Dart vs Auron being added as a victory for the former on the wiki:
you
By the way, I've noticed you've put your hands on Dart's page on the OBD Wiki. According to what I have read so far, it is unmistakable your edit. Y'know, your own version of the character's capabilities. Never mind you linked ""Dart's victories"" to your own threads. Very mature of you, I must add. Although I do expect better things from you soon, my lord.

vs

me
And yeah, if you've read this thread you'll see the point of why this was listed as a victory. Other than one poster, who was joking, everyone has called it a victory for Dart.

That was all that I said on that front. That's it.

Dart beats Auron simply due to better feats. Dart got Auron as a victory for the OBD wiki because no one could make a case for Auron beating Dart on any feat front. The latter is not even important for the actual debate portion. Do you -somehow- understand the distinction better now? I believe not.


-Sure buddy. You keep telling yourself that you have responses lined up for the simple to comprehend quantifications I've made, while you come up with figures like 1 mile being equivalent to 1400 kilometers and the moon being only a mile deep. (again, you aren't too bright are you?)


-Oh what a coincidence. I don't use gameplay either. I only use canon. I'm glad we agree on something. smile

But yeah, I've done your work for you. No more false ends between us now that the pretense of me distorting a past statement is displayed plainly as false.

Thanks for posting your own quote:

if you've read this thread you'll see the point of why this was listed as a victory. Other than one poster, who was joking, everyone has called it a victory for Dart.

So everyone has called victory for Dart, therefore Dart wins. There is the fallacy. Thank you.

You don't use gameplay? Then why those videos you posted are from gameplay stances and flashy battle animations...?

I'm too bright? Says the guy who claims he has a Legend Of Dragoon TIME-FRAME! Just because when the characters defeats a boss they are seen standing in the same place they were before fighting! Lol. So the FFV characters must fight ExDeath at the speed of light since they don't even move from the place they were before fighting him! But hey, I am SOOO incompetent. smile

Sure, Dart may beat Auron, but that doesn't mean I agree with most of those Dart's feats you're trying to pull out from your ass with lame usage of hypothesis.

Enfathiel
Really, you posted a whole respect thread into this argument.....no one is going to bother to respond to that. Just post his best feats for strenght speed so what.

Don't post evey single feat he ever had.

Do you have some personal grudge with Auron or something? This was a rape thread from the start.

If you really want a good thread try placing Datz against a well-feated FF character like Zidane, Kuja, Cloud, Sephiroth, Terra, kefka , Mateus, Golbez, Llednar and so on...

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.