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Send your submissions at 5:00 Pacific time.

Contestants will send a single draft pick to me via PM, where I will do a "first consideration" of whether to accept them or not. If they pass, I will post the draft choice in the draft thread, anonymously, and contestants will have a chance to debate whether it should be accepted or not. If a strong case is made that the character should not be accepted, the contestant will have to pick a new character (which will again be given via PM).

Draft will end at 5:00 pacific time, three days from now.

Draft 1:

Madison Jeffries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Jeffries

Originally posted by King Kandy
Draft 1:

Madison Jeffries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Jeffries

As opposed to Magneto, who I assume is allowed at the low herald power level. Interesting.

Draft 2:

Monica Rambeau

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_Rambeau

Draft 3:

Starhawk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starhawk_(comics)

Draft 4:

Vulcan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_%28Marvel_Comics%29

(I feel he may be too powerful despite being listed in "low herald". If anyone can give good evidence either way, much obliged.)

Vulcan seems like fair game if Monica, and Starhawk are allowed.

he may be pushing the upper level. When he was introduced, there is no doubt he would be too strong, but since seeing him fight Havok, Polaris and the Starjammers in King War, he might have had his powerset defined a bit better, and pulled in a bit.

Vulcan and Nova (Richard Ryder) may be mid heralds.

Isn't current Nova > Vulcan?

I'm not really familiar with current Nova unfortunatly...

EDIT: what kind of feat would differentiate low from mid herald? I can grab the King war stuff for us to look at.

There are not particular feats that make you jump ranks, normally is about how good you look on Average and how above-your-rank people can you beat/hang with. A delicate balance, that's for sure.

Nova was becoming consistently good at the end of his run, and Vulcan always worked on a high threat level through his relatively short career. Compare that consistency with heralds such as Apocalypse and Magneto and you'll see that Vulcan and Nova are considered overall more solid.

Edit: Note that I'm not -directly- saying Vulcan and Nova are above the caps, but some of the highlights in their careers happened after the tier list was locked so the discussion for movements never were fully developped.

to be fair, I would put Vulcan above magneto, Apoc, and the other draft picks thus far

I'm too new to this to say yay or nay though

Alright, i'm convinced by now.

lol, he DID punch an already weak and restrained Polaris in the face...

I'll cosign Id, that if Magneto is the reference point, Vulcan should be fine. The point of drafts is to push the limits without breaking them, so they're valid picks imo. Most of the people who should be banned in a given draft are fairly obvious, and force a reaction from other competitors.

Draft 5: Magneto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto_(comics)

Beh, I'm among people who think Vulcan is above Magneto simply because he steadly works as a mid to high Magneto, he is just worse at pissing feat contests because he has less showings. I guess you can make an argument about it, but losing to Blackbolt (whom he was beating before he used his voice) and to Gladiator (in a relatively good showing for the character) doesn't make you Apocalypse level.

I guess that, since Vulcan can always be compared to Magneto, he qualifies as "fair enough". This kind of ABC logic doesn't quite fly for me in defining tiers though -you could allow a bunch of mid heralds using the same basis-.

In my mind, Vulcan has comparable power output to Magneto (perhaps greater, but I really don't think it would play out that clearly given a feat war), and far less talent or shown versatility implementing said power.

Therefore, he's allowable, IMO, but I may eat those words come the tourney.

I'm following my usual MO of throwing a team together completely on the fly. I'd like to pretend I'm just that awesome that I don't need the prep and thought that everybody else has put into their teams, but given my track record of winning tourneys (oh wait... it doesn't exist), that's pretty clearly not the case. C'est la vie.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Draft 5: Magneto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto_(comics)

'bout time. Not saying he'll be the best pick when it's all said and done, but for this level it's like Surfer dropping to round 2 in a HH tourney.

And as it pertains to the Vulcan/Magneto debate, imo he's WAY less useful in a tourney setting than Mags is, overall levels be damned.

magneto would have been my second choice

EDIT: everyone saw his Necronosha performance against Proteus?

Yeah, Magneto was my 3rd choice, but I was thinking about scrapping him anyways.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Alright, i'm convinced by now.
Wait a sec. I may have some potential objections to Vulcan, but I'm not sure because I've got double check some stuff. But don't close the polls just yet, I'll try to get my concerns posted a little later tonight.

Alright, alright. I know if you think so, it's probably going to be at least sensible.

Draft Six: Iron Man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man

vs magneto and Maddison Jeffries... ouch

Originally posted by Digi
'bout time. Not saying he'll be the best pick when it's all said and done, but for this level it's like Surfer dropping to round 2 in a HH tourney.

And as it pertains to the Vulcan/Magneto debate, imo he's WAY less useful in a tourney setting than Mags is, overall levels be damned.


That may be right, Magneto has more showings and thus, more versatility. I was arguing strictly from a tier-placing point of view.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Alright, alright. I know if you think so, it's probably going to be at least sensible.
Sorry it took so long


Anyway here are some potential problems I have with Vulcan(I say potential because I'm no expert on the guy so some of these may be misconseptions based on "forum talk", in which case I'll promptly drop them).

1. He beat Warlock at his own game(quantum energy manipulation I mean). And make no mistake, a non mystic being able to manipute exotic magical energy as easily as non magical energy is damn impressive, especially when his control is great enough to usurp power from someone like Warlock.

2. He was fighting evenly with Black Bolt until BB yelled. I mean Black Bolt has done well against guys like the Hulk and Thor WITHOUT yelling, so the fact that he finally pulled that card really says something for Vulcan. And since Vulcan specifically says that BB can't kill him because of his ability to generate, he might actually violate the rules in place about immortals and such. Think about it, BB's whispers have put down Hulk and Gladiator for longer than his scream put down Vulcan.


Now for those mentioning Magneto, I have no doubt that Mag's far greater number of appearances have yielded him better quantifiable feats than Vulcan managed to accumulate, but the thing is that because of all those appearances we have a truckload of low end showings from throughout his career to counter his high end feats and keep him at low herald. Vulcan on the other hand was continuously improving and becoming more impressive right up until the end and alot of his "low showings" are actually just instances of him being inexperienced rather than showings that demonstrate the limits to his powers. He may have been a "low herald" level character at some point, but by the time of his death he was on the level of guys like Warlock and Black Bolt(both of whom I feel are above "Low Herald".

We've seen characters without established limitations like Vulcan drafted in lots of tourneys, and it's almost always regreted later on. Remember how regrettful batdude was that he allowed Black Alice and the Keeper on the basis that they hadn't done anything to specifically place them above Thanos? How about when there was some confrontation between Digi and Evan about the Doctor(not that it was the primary source of the confrontation though)? If nothing else I think Vulcan should fall into the category of Dr Doom, too close to risk it. Hell even id said that he falls into the grey line between low and mid herald if I'm not mistaken.



While I'm thinking about it, which version of Starhawk is being drafted?

Originally posted by darthgoober
While I'm thinking about it, which version of Starhawk is being drafted?

What about Starhawk do you find contensious? He and the guardians of the galaxy have gotten beaten pretty handly by Surfer on occasion.

minus the speed, I don't see how he is much above other draft choices thus far?

I didn't know about that Vulcan vs Warlock thing, when did that happen?

Originally posted by inimalist
What about Starhawk do you find contensious? He and the guardians of the galaxy have gotten beaten pretty handly by Surfer on occasion.

minus the speed, I don't see how he is much above other draft choices thus far?

I didn't know about that Vulcan vs Warlock thing, when did that happen?
Depends, I don't really have a problem with the guy Starhawk unless they've amped him since they revived the GoG, but from what I understand his wife was a bit more powerful than him so she probably wouldn't qualify for this.

I can't remember the issue number for the Warlock/Vulcan fight, but it's posted in Vulcan's respect thread.

Guardians of the Galaxy v2 14.

Starhawk fought a more experienced alternate Surfer , if anything, that's hard to gauge compared to regular versions of those characters.

Vulcan also managed to beat the leader of a race who was powerful enough to thrash Gladiator thanks to energy manipulation.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Depends, I don't really have a problem with the guy Starhawk unless they've amped him since they revived the GoG, but from what I understand his wife was a bit more powerful than him so she probably wouldn't qualify for this.

I can't remember the issue number for the Warlock/Vulcan fight, but it's posted in Vulcan's respect thread.


I would say regular Starhawk is stronger than regular Aleta. Aleta as Starhawk is another beast entirely though.

Originally posted by Bentley
I would say regular Starhawk is stronger than regular Aleta. Aleta as Starhawk is another beast entirely though.
Cool. I was unsure of the details, I just know they shared a body at one point and I remember hearing something about the female Starhawk being a step or two about the male version.

Originally posted by Bentley
Guardians of the Galaxy v2 14.

Starhawk fought a more experienced alternate Surfer , if anything, that's hard to gauge compared to regular versions of those characters.


iirc, Surfer Annual 4, Starhawk goes a few panels with Surfer solo (by which I mean, surfer blasts him pretty good and Starhawk doesn't die), but eventually Surfer beats him and the entire Guardians squad

afaik, Starhawk has never been as powerful as surfer... again, I'm new at this though

Starhawk was defeated by Surfer before, but I only recall fights again the Keeper (future Surfer), who is not exactly the same as 616 Surfer. I'm pointing out, not saying Starhawk would beat Norrin.

no, totally, I'm just talking about what I've seen. At this point, I'd almost assume you have a better background knowledge of the character.

I'd just point out though, people like Magneto have feats with their shields or energy manip that would appear to put them over the limit. Would Starhawk take Surfer a majority out of 10?

Nah, I haven't seen every Starhawk feat but by sheer flexibility Norrin should be well above him. He has good high showings but he's not all that consistant imo.

I don't know how Surfer's getting pulled in here. Surfer is the top of the high herald tier. Even if you lose to him, it doesn't make you a low herald. Not saying Starhawk is too powerful, but him losing to Surfer is really besides the point.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Draft Six: Iron Man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man

One would assume that the drafter will need to specify which armor is being used. I'd go with Extremis if it were me (I say this in case it's a newcomer who may be overwhelmed at the choices and needs a direction), because he's a sneaky pick and I'd like to see him used well...generally considered a tier below LH, but with enough tools to be useful at this level.

NO DR. POLARIS???!!!

Originally posted by batdude123
NO DR. POLARIS???!!!
Everyone here seems to be Marvel Zombies. sneer

DC sucks

Runs away..

really, this is just first draft.. I wouldn't be surprise if we would see the likes of the Ray, dr. polaris,MM, etc. in 2nd draft..

Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't know how Surfer's getting pulled in here. Surfer is the top of the high herald tier. Even if you lose to him, it doesn't make you a low herald. Not saying Starhawk is too powerful, but him losing to Surfer is really besides the point.

its all about "framing" the argument

actually, I was more curious than anything about that.

I've been flipping through some old Guardians appearances, imho, Starhawk would be very hard to prove as being above the limit. Marvel Team-Up 86 has him getting one-punched by Spider-Man. He seems to spend more time talking about being the "one who knows" than performing feats, but that shouldn't be surprising, he is a Gerber character, lol.

Originally posted by Ambient
really, this is just first draft.. I wouldn't be surprise if we would see the likes of the Ray, dr. polaris,MM, etc. in 2nd draft..

martian is low herald?

Originally posted by inimalist
its all about "framing" the argument

actually, I was more curious than anything about that.

I've been flipping through some old Guardians appearances, imho, Starhawk would be very hard to prove as being above the limit. Marvel Team-Up 86 has him getting one-punched by Spider-Man. He seems to spend more time talking about being the "one who knows" than performing feats, but that shouldn't be surprising, he is a Gerber character, lol.



martian is low herald?
He certainly shouldn't be. IMO he's at worst the upper crust of Mid.

Draft 7: Warkiller

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warkiller

Interesting.

Originally posted by Bentley
Interesting.

Unless people have any other statements they'd like to make, Draft 1 is over.

The vs Warlock thing is questionable, but I'm willing to let Vulcan slide

as long as people do the same for my round 2 pick

Originally posted by King Kandy
Unless people have any other statements they'd like to make, Draft 1 is over.
No one responded to my points about Vulcan...

Originally posted by King Kandy
Draft 7: Warkiller

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warkiller
I'm not familiar with this guy, but his strength sounds a lot like Gladiator's or the Hulk's. If his powers are anything like either of their's and he's a Wonder Woman villain he's probably above the cap...

I didn't find your statements on Vulcan to be persuasive enough to justify banning him.

I could find much that made me think Warkiller was powerful one way or the other. If anyone knows his actual showings, i'd be obliged. I wouldn't be worried about him, at any rate.

war killer is just slightly under wonder woman
they fight with wonder woman always winning buts its close
he has this grace ability to dodge non grapple moves even from people like wonder woman and his spear is said to can penetrate any material but we only seen him cut wonder woman

his durability and strength are wonder woman level when he has peak confidence wonder woman is slightly more skilled

Wonder woman is too powerful for this tournament, and so are people close to her level. A weaker pick is needed.

Warkiller has been replaced by Apocalypse (Marvel).

Originally posted by King Kandy
Warkiller has been replaced by Apocalypse (Marvel).
Someone drafted a Low-Mid Meta? Gutsy plan. biscuits

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He certainly shouldn't be. IMO he's at worst the upper crust of Mid.
Hhhhhhusssssh!! Quiet you..
Originally posted by King Kandy
Unless people have any other statements they'd like to make, Draft 1 is over.
Starhawk - Didn't this guy pretty much exchange energy blast, was holding his own and even willed the Q band away from the Keeper adding it to his own. Im talking about the latter issues of GOTG after Surfer was trained by Epoch and dubbed the Keeper.. Im thinking >>> low herald ..

Vulcan - Pretty much drained a Shiar battle ship with a wave of his hands plus all those points made by Darth.. His energy manipulation pretty much high herald class..

Just my 2 cents..

oops, nvm

Originally posted by Ambient
Starhawk - Didn't this guy pretty much exchange energy blast, was holding his own and even willed the Q band away from the Keeper adding it to his own. Im talking about the latter issues of GOTG after Surfer was trained by Epoch and dubbed the Keeper.. Im thinking >>> low herald ..


prior to fighting the Keeper, Starhawk had been given the Q bands, because Quasar was his real father (part of the story was Starhawk trying to find out who his parents were). They were taken from a Keeper who had been nearly destroyed by Galactus.

After regining consciousness, Starhawk + Q Bands fought the Keeper, not even to a stalemate. At the end of the fight, the Keeper essentially laughs at Starhawk and wills the Q bands back to him.

so, you just reversed what happened. I don't think there is any question that Starhawk is lower than Surfer.

hmmm... Thought i remembered diff... Sorry..

Did he go up against Eon with or without Q band?

without, but he had Aleta with him

on panel she says the only way to beat him would be with their combined power

Thought it was just Stakar that fought Eon, i remember him resisting Eons attacks but was not sure if he had the Q band at the time.. I dont have those comics anymore so u have to forgive me for this ?.. Thanks

ah, it was Kismet, not Aleta, Kismet being Starhawk's mother

anyways, scans or it didn't happen, so:

vs Keeper:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/8263/23025415.th.jpghttp://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6383/17655717.th.jpghttp://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4098/40483496.th.jpghttp://img34.imageshack.us/img34/6731/21454585.th.jpghttp://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5094/86627028.th.jpghttp://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1309/60156690.th.jpghttp://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2937/73031270.th.jpg

vs Eon?

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3256/11174148.th.jpghttp://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8459/27720728.th.jpghttp://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3442/74040755.th.jpghttp://img822.imageshack.us/img822/8929/28658882.th.jpghttp://img89.imageshack.us/img89/6746/19194255.th.jpg

I might not have the right fight though, as this is Era, not Eon, though Era says that he disposed of Eon long before GOTG would have begun. Let me know if there is another fight vs Eon, I'm just going through this stuff for the first time too.

Thanks for the scan..

I retract my claim.. lols

Originally posted by King Kandy
Warkiller has been replaced by Apocalypse (Marvel).

I know he is a constant jobber, but wouldn't apoc's durability technically be above the limits? I might not be remembering correctly, but didn't he laugh off a yell from Black Bolt?

A diff. fight.. It was when he resisted being turned into a child by Eon..

but i now think he had the Q band with him..

Originally posted by Ambient
A diff. fight.. It was when he resisted being turned into a child by Eon..

that actually happens immediatly before Starhawk is given the Q bands by Eon (technically Era). After he resists, Era says that he was only testing Starhawk, and as a reward, gives him the Q bands, which reveal to Starhawk that Quasar is his father.

Feat wise, imho, at best it is a plot device (if we ignore the on panel description of the attack as a test), though it might be a feat against mind control or possession based attacks, which are illegal in this tourney iirc

Right this is why i retracted my claim regarding him.. Thanks again..

I'm nothing if not thorough

Yeah, Starhawk is not really impressing me, he was about even with Surfer w/ the quantum bands, which are some of the most broken powers in marvel. Against Era he did shit all, which is more or less what you'd expect.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yeah, Starhawk is not really impressing me

zing...

actually, any more thoughts on Vulcan or Apoc?

does the lack of appearances for Vulcan make him too hard to judge? I mean, manipulating Warlocks quantum magic should be way above the limit, no?

I wish I knew cosmics better... Warlock is higher than low hearld, ya?

Can anyone post scans of the Warlock incident?

I got it, just give me a sec

I'll post that plus his black bolt and havock fights, so we see the upper and lower ranges...

I'll see what I can do about the gladiator/shiar guard fight as well

It's ok inimalist, I got it(the Warlock thing at least)...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/GoG14-003.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/GoG14-004.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/GoG14-005.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/GoG14-006.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/GoG14-012.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/GoG14-013.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/GoG14-014.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/GoG14-015.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/GoG14-016.jpg

And I noticed something else while I was rounding those up. Notice how Warlock's face is a suspicios colot when he takes off? Well just a few issues later Warlock transforms into Magus. Then at some point shortly thereafter(I can't for the life of me remember when specifically) Magus reveals that when he altered the timeline he set it up so that he had actually been the Magus for weeks before he revealed himself, so Vulcan didn't just run off "Warlock"... he ran off Warlock/Magus .

GotG 13

notics, Vulcan has the jump on Warlock, as you will see in the next issue, has little effect, insinuating that Vulcan's natural energy manipulation abilities don't output enough to be even close to Warlock level

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/450/90181881.th.jpghttp://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9397/76065417.th.jpg

GotG 14

Warlock says point blank how powerful Vulcan is... I don't know if he is changing into Magus there? (he refers to himself as Warlock still, when he escapes from Vulcan's guard on the page immediatly after this) If so, Vulcan even hanging around with Magus would disqualify him. If not, it is probably arguable that Warlock was caught by surprise by Vulcan's energy manip. powers, and does get a stalemate (at least), though stalemating Warlock is a damn high end feat

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4076/91638291.th.jpghttp://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3014/24593287.th.jpghttp://img820.imageshack.us/img820/6747/15137132.th.jpghttp://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7991/86705197.th.jpghttp://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2813/16155872.th.jpghttp://img340.imageshack.us/img340/858/86143413.th.jpg

Yeah. I don't know what to make of the whole Magus/Warlock thing, except that if it WAS Magus in charge, he obviously wasn't going all out. That said, I see nothing Vulcan is doing that wouldn't be fine... for a high herald. But yes, he does seem quite powerful there, so this bears consideration for the low-herald tier. Now i'd like to see the black-bolt scans.

Vulcan was practically stomping BB there. I'm going to give the pro-Vulcan side a chance to speak, but right now, that does seem like quite persuasive evidence for his banning.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Seriously? Have you never seen BB's fights with guys like Hulk and Gladiator? Put it this way, he looked way better against them than he did against Vulcan...

no, I haven't actually

Gladiator is higher than low herald, yes?

EDIT: I'm also pretty lenient on limits and stuff, I hate to be the one saying "no". this is all just for fun to me, not that I'm saying its any different for you guys, I'm just, you know, not expecting the world anyways lol. But in all seriousness, if BB is as serious as you claim, then ya, probably another mark against vulcan

Originally posted by inimalist
no, I haven't actually

Gladiator is higher than low herald, yes?

EDIT: I'm also pretty lenient on limits and stuff, I hate to be the one saying "no". this is all just for fun to me, not that I'm saying its any different for you guys, I'm just, you know, not expecting the world anyways lol. But in all seriousness, if BB is as serious as you claim, then ya, probably another mark against vulcan
Oh don't be embarrased, BB fights aren't posted nearly as often as other characters on the forum because everyone gets hung up on his voice. You should definately check out his respect thread though...

Yeah. He's Mid/High herald easy.

The "magic" Warlock never really had a definitive level. Classic was Mid/High, obviously, but who knows.

And to be fair, if anyone "won" the Vulcan/BB fight, it was BB. Still, I can see the reasons for banning. Kandy's decision I guess.

Vulcan clearly loses to Gladiator and Blackbolt, mid heralds. He also lost to Havok, which shows that his general energy manipulation isn't as high as Havok's specific energy manipulation. His fight with Warlock can be chopped up to luck; He blind sided him with his energy manipulation. Obviously, he won't be surprising any of his opponents in the tourney, and that seems to be his biggest advantage. In a rematch, knowing what Vulcan can do, how do you think a fight between Warlock and Vulcan will go?

Also, Blackbolt's strongest physical attack, The Master Blow, is compared to a standard Hulk hit. He may be able to last in a fight with The Hulk, but what makes him a mid herald is his voice; without it he would be a high meta at best.

Vulcan vs Shiar Imperial Guard

owns everyone minus gladiator, who stomps him

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7323/62730225.th.jpghttp://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8350/28193562.th.jpghttp://img689.imageshack.us/img689/1888/62625098.th.jpghttp://img843.imageshack.us/img843/2329/19760446.th.jpghttp://img266.imageshack.us/img266/8796/10692035.th.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8175/10263761.th.jpghttp://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9255/33360033.th.jpghttp://img88.imageshack.us/img88/273/48094336.th.jpghttp://img405.imageshack.us/img405/9955/55559474.th.jpghttp://img254.imageshack.us/img254/180/15586774.th.jpg

energy feat:

thought this was interesting, and relevant. The creature Havok and Vulcan are fighting is powered by the other members of its species. It is so powerful that it took the combined might of the imperial guard with Gladiator, Vulcan and Havok together to take it down, but then the energy is just transfered to the next "eldest". Vulcan takes all of that power with no difficulty

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7026/39551569.th.jpghttp://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3143/44994028.th.jpghttp://img180.imageshack.us/img180/92/54860322.th.jpg

ok, a couple posts with Havok, or; confusing

ok, so no problem manipulating Havoks energy

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/7682/x01r.th.jpghttp://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3069/x02yc.th.jpg

and here, again no problem manipulating Havok's energy (in fact, he even says on panel that his energy powers are useless), yet, nearly comes out with a loss against the combined onslaught of Polaris and Havok

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2610/38083918.th.jpghttp://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5430/27106498.th.jpghttp://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8682/22012273.th.jpghttp://img683.imageshack.us/img683/2963/11763357.th.jpghttp://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9928/42104526.th.jpghttp://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6777/79207663.th.jpghttp://img251.imageshack.us/img251/1752/82173341.th.jpg

and finally

Havok beats Vulcan, but again, Havok has been powered by a Sun, only more literal this time

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3576/96527336.th.jpghttp://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5083/40482472.th.jpghttp://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5869/44914332.th.jpghttp://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2172/92074356.th.jpghttp://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8056/56235148.th.jpg

so like, I guess there are two ways to look at this. 1) Havok is literally capable of being lifted to a Mid/High Herald class powerlevel if he is exposed to enough energy, and therefore Vulcan is above the tourney limit, or 2) The Warlock fight is more of a Spider-Man-vs-Firelord moment, and while a high end feat, beating up on Black Bolt, who is holding back his most powerful attack, probably doesn't outright disqualify Vulcan.

The problem as I see it, if we go with 2, every fight with Vulcan will cease to be about strategy or debate, but just about how good of an energy manipulater Vulcan actually is. Its not really even that there aren't enough appearances at this point, but more that he only has experience with the X-Men, and not a lot of more cosmic characters to judge against. Its a good choice, but for what its worth, there are lots of other low-heralds that can give you essentially what Vulcan does. EDIT: also, whoever selected Vulcan probably wants more than a "havok-level" energy manipulator on their team, when every first round choice was an energy manipulator...

Originally posted by inimalist
energy feat:

thought this was interesting, and relevant. The creature Havok and Vulcan are fighting is powered by the other members of its species. It is so powerful that it took the combined might of the imperial guard with Gladiator, Vulcan and Havok together to take it down, but then the energy is just transfered to the next "eldest". Vulcan takes all of that power with no difficulty

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7026/39551569.th.jpghttp://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3143/44994028.th.jpghttp://img180.imageshack.us/img180/92/54860322.th.jpg any money, those are the scans whoever wanted him, wanted him for.

I might also mention, inimalist has an impressive way of arguing both sides fairly.

Originally posted by inimalist
and finally

Havok beats Vulcan, but again, Havok has been powered by a Sun, only more literal this time

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3576/96527336.th.jpghttp://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5083/40482472.th.jpghttp://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5869/44914332.th.jpghttp://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2172/92074356.th.jpghttp://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8056/56235148.th.jpg

so like, I guess there are two ways to look at this. 1) Havok is literally capable of being lifted to a Mid/High Herald class powerlevel if he is exposed to enough energy, and therefore Vulcan is above the tourney limit, or 2) The Warlock fight is more of a Spider-Man-vs-Firelord moment, and while a high end feat, beating up on Black Bolt, who is holding back his most powerful attack, probably doesn't outright disqualify Vulcan.

The problem as I see it, if we go with 2, every fight with Vulcan will cease to be about strategy or debate, but just about how good of an energy manipulater Vulcan actually is. Its not really even that there aren't enough appearances at this point, but more that he only has experience with the X-Men, and not a lot of more cosmic characters to judge against. Its a good choice, but for what its worth, there are lots of other low-heralds that can give you essentially what Vulcan does. EDIT: also, whoever selected Vulcan probably wants more than a "havok-level" energy manipulator on their team, when every first round choice was an energy manipulator...

I f-ing love Havok, and yes he can be a legit low herald, even outside of this feat. He has some crazy versatility showings people don't normally remember either.

But yes, an ambiguous showing for Vulcan.

Originally posted by rader
Vulcan clearly loses to Gladiator and Blackbolt, mid heralds. He also lost to Havok, which shows that his general energy manipulation isn't as high as Havok's specific energy manipulation. His fight with Warlock can be chopped up to luck; He blind sided him with his energy manipulation. Obviously, he won't be surprising any of his opponents in the tourney, and that seems to be his biggest advantage. In a rematch, knowing what Vulcan can do, how do you think a fight between Warlock and Vulcan will go?

Also, Blackbolt's strongest physical attack, The Master Blow, is compared to a standard Hulk hit. He may be able to last in a fight with The Hulk, but what makes him a mid herald is his voice; without it he would be a high meta at best.
You should check out BB's respect thread, it's his CIS(rarely using his voice) that keeps him at Mid Herald. If he were to start using it regulary we'd most likely have to bump him up a tier.

And if the Warlock thing was just luck, Magus would have went back to finish the fight rather than run away as soon as he had enough energy...

according to the plot following the Warlock/Vulcan fight, Adam Warlock is able to seal the rift caused by Black Bolt's WMD , and immediatly turns into Magus, who beats the entire Guardians team (phyla vell, mantis, drax, gamorra, +) while laughing at them, and is only taken down by a cosmic cube.

It seems, in the end, that Magus was fighting for control of Warlock, as Adam says something like "The cube is keeping him at bay" before being defeated, so it is probably debateable as to whether or not it was Magus proper who fought Vulcan, however, it does seem like Warlock was pretty strong.

great scans.

do you guys consider Starhawk below or above Ikaris?

I do, but that's because I think Ikaris suckz. I don't recall him ever doing anything that impressive.

Originally posted by inimalist
according to the plot following the Warlock/Vulcan fight, Adam Warlock is able to seal the rift caused by Black Bolt's WMD , and immediatly turns into Magus, who beats the entire Guardians team (phyla vell, mantis, drax, gamorra, +) while laughing at them, and is only taken down by a cosmic cube.

It seems, in the end, that Magus was fighting for control of Warlock, as Adam says something like "The cube is keeping him at bay" before being defeated, so it is probably debateable as to whether or not it was Magus proper who fought Vulcan, however, it does seem like Warlock was pretty strong.

Warlock states on-panel that he absorbed most of his energy in a matter of seconds, he later showed the ability to manipulate magic himself, so it was an energy manipulator against another.

Warlock managed to create shields tanking a super-nova, transmutate and desintegrate asteroids, manipulate the energies of tousands of souls and seal the Fault. His magic has herald level feats, although he never quite fought someone in that level before turning to Magus.

I'd place Warlock in the mid herald level myself

transmuting a planet definitely does it for me