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1) one week's prep time for both

2) straight battle

1) Prep goes to Doom if he blocks future vision w/ magic or tech otherwise anything he does gets countered by future sight.

2) Doom is still physically human and most of his enemies w/ MM aren't going for the kill. Manhattan blitz teleports his atoms apart before Doom can raise shields.

1- Doom 10/10

2- Manhattan 7,5/10

1. Doom stomps

2. It can go either way, I'm leaning toward Jon though.

Wow, Doom wanking at it's finest. "Prep" is the great equalizer.

Manhattan wins both.

Doom absorbs binds Manhattan's soul to a pocket watch.

Manhattan sees his soul being bound on a pocket watch.

Originally posted by marwash22
Wow, Doom wanking at it's finest. "Prep" is the great equalizer.

Manhattan wins both.

Sure, because Doom don't have a shot against Jon. After all, he just absorbed who? Surfer? Galactus? Beyounder?

1. Manhatten stomps
2. 10/10

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Sure, because Doom don't have a shot against Jon. After all, he just absorbed who? Surfer? Galactus? Beyounder? That's the only way Doom ever wins. which is why "prep" is stupid as shit in forum battles because in the end, if Doom is involved, the only thing people will say is... "power steal, ftw".

Originally posted by marwash22
That's the only way Doom ever wins. which is why "prep" is stupid as shit in forum battles because in the end, if Doom is involved, the only thing people will say is... "power steal, ftw".

and..? it's part of his power set. He has equipment and the know how to steal powers from beings on manhattan's level. if it had been done once it might be PIS, but it's been done a few times. With prep, Doom pretty much wins. he has tons of experience with superhumans, manhattan has almost none.

on the flip side with NO prep he's at a disadvantage, but we don't really know how manhattan will deal with magical attacks that defy the laws of physics.

doom 10/10 scenario 1, manhattan 7/10 scenario 2.

Originally posted by marwash22
That's the only way Doom ever wins. which is why "prep" is stupid as shit in forum battles because in the end, if Doom is involved, the only thing people will say is... "power steal, ftw".

But since there's prep in the first scenario, he wins.

Doom gets blown up in both scenarios.

Originally posted by marwash22
Doom gets blown up in both scenarios.

But it was a doombot and Manhattan is stomped flirt

Originally posted by marwash22
That's the only way Doom ever wins. which is why "prep" is stupid as shit in forum battles because in the end, if Doom is involved, the only thing people will say is... "power steal, ftw".

Doom is not the end all be all prepper though.

Originally posted by Bentley
But it was a doombot and Manhattan is stomped flirt



Doom is not the end all be all prepper though.

he's pretty close. Out-prepping a watcher armed with a cosmic cube is...pretty ridiculous. and that's not even getting into that whole "apprentice" storyline where he out prepped the most powerful being in existence over what- millions of years?

as far as I'm concerned doom has the prep trophy

Dude, the Marquis got beaten by freaking Ben Grimm, unless you talk about some other apprentice.

^ ... what?

As far as I'm concerned, 'the apprentice' was nothing special. That is to say, he never demonstrated abilities beyond what current/mainstream Doom is capable of.

Don't understand why many people view him as some uber being. /shrug

Originally posted by marwash22
Doom gets blown up in both scenarios.
Yep.

Doom wins
Manhattan wins

Originally posted by Uriel005
1) Prep goes to Doom if he blocks future vision w/ magic or tech otherwise anything he does gets countered by future sight.

2) Doom is still physically human and most of his enemies w/ MM aren't going for the kill. Manhattan blitz teleports his atoms apart before Doom can raise shields.

im pretty sure Manhattan can not change the future even if he see's it......so if he saw what was going to happen in the future he can not change it because no matter what he does it leads back to that future somehow.

1) Doom barely ever loses in this situation.

2) Dr. Manhattan...due to doom not being ready for a guy like him

Manhattan creates a Reed Richards clone and sics it on Doom.

1: Depends on how much prep.But yeah doom wins a pretty good majority.
2:Manhattan easily.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Manhattan creates a Reed Richards clone and sics it on Doom. And then Doom destroys it like he would Reed, now what?

Originally posted by Mindset
And then Doom destroys it like he would Reed, now what?

what if he creates another doom to fight doom for him?

There can be only one Doom or the multiverse will collapse.

One of the World's smartest men poses no more a threat to Dr. Manhattan than does one of its smartest termites.

I'm inclined to believe that Doom can bring it home in the first scenario, however I can't quite imagine Doom surviving that long against Manhatten in the second scenario.

Originally posted by Badabing
One of the World's smartest men poses no more a threat to Dr. Manhattan than does one if its smartest termites. Which is a comment made right before the realization that Ozymandias outsmarted him. biscuits

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Which is a comment made right before the realization that Ozymandias outsmarted him. biscuits The statement still stands. sneer

I'm saying it, Doom is a termite to Manhattan! biscuits

^ crackers

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ crackers Doctor Doom 131

Now just imagine that flea with the Beyonder's power.

Originally posted by Badabing
Doctor Doom 131

That's a BIG termite.

I'd actually be pretty scared of it. O_O

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Which is a comment made right before the realization that Ozymandias outsmarted him. biscuits Ozy did no such thing...

Yes he did

Originally posted by Mindset
Yes he did no he didn't

Originally posted by Mindset
Yes he did

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No he didn't.What did you do?Lure him into a trap?Falling into a trap which is cleverly hidden is not te same as being outsmarted.

And didn't he say the termite thing after he got de-atomized?

That wasn't when he outsmarted him

Originally posted by Mindset
That wasn't when he outsmarted him Then when did he?And didn't he still say that after he beat ozy?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
No he didn't.What did you do?Lure him into a trap?Falling into a trap which is cleverly hidden is not te same as being outsmarted.

And didn't he say the termite thing after he got de-atomized? Either read the final issue of Watchmen or watch the movie. Srsly. srsly

Originally posted by Galan007
Either read the final issue of Watchmen or watch the movie. Srsly. srsly No one is specifying where Ozy outsmarted Manhattan and I don't remember where is he did.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Then when did he?And didn't he still say that after he beat ozy? * See my former post

^Double post.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Then when did he?And didn't he still say that after he beat ozy? He never beat Ozy, which is why he was outsmarted. Wiki it, watch the movie, or read the comics. Come on.

Originally posted by Mindset
He never beat Ozy, which is why he was outsmarted. Wiki it, watch the movie, or read the comics. Come on. He didn't foil his plans but he could have easily killed him, or exposed the secret.And he still didn't outsmart him.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
He didn't foil his plans but he could have easily killed him, or exposed the secret.And he still didn't outsmart him.
Yeah he did. He outmaneuvered him and made it so that Jon couldn't foil his plans without causing great harm to the Earth and thus human life that he had come to care for.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
He didn't foil his plans but he could have easily killed him, or exposed the secret.And he still didn't outsmart him. No he couldn't expose him. That was kind of a major point at the end. And yes, he did.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah he did. He outmaneuvered him and made it so that Jon couldn't foil his plans without causing great harm to the Earth and thus human life that he had come to care for. He did this.Or out stragized if you even perfer.But he didn't outsmart him.

Originally posted by Mindset
No he couldn't expose him. That was kind of a major point at the end. And yes, he did. He could have.But he determined the logical thing was to let it be as it would have just led to conflict.If Jon wanted to tell ozy couldn't have done a damn thing.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
He did this.Or out stragized if you even perfer.But he didn't outsmart him.
"Out strategize" is the exact same thing as outsmart...

Originally posted by Black bolt z
He could have.But he determined the logical thing was to let it be as it would have just led to conflict.If Jon wanted to tell ozy couldn't have done a damn thing.
Jon is an ultra-determinist...he couldn't have chosen to expose the plan.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
"Out strategize" is the exact same thing as outsmart...


Jon is an ultra-determinist...he couldn't have chosen to expose the plan. Not really.Especially since Manhattan didn't do anything back.It would be outsmarting him if Jon has also prepped like ozy but failed.So no Jon was not outsmarted.

He could have.He has free will.But he really only considered the logical option.

*sigh*

BBZ, get off Manhattan's giant blue dick.

Originally posted by marwash22
BBZ, get off Manhattan's giant blue dick. How am I wanking him?I said Doom would out prep him easy.But Ozy didn't outsmart Jon.Outsmarting him would mean he beat Jon in some way or won something against him.Or something that proved he was better in any way.So unless you consider using tachyons as winning he didn't outsmart him.

And BTW why you looking at Manhattans dick? biscuits

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Not really.Especially since Manhattan didn't do anything back.It would be outsmarting him if Jon has also prepped like ozy but failed.So no Jon was not outsmarted.

He could have.He has free will.But he really only considered the logical option.
No he doesn't have free will, what's more he knows he doesn't.

If you had actually read Watchmen you'd know that.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
No he doesn't have free will, what's more he knows he doesn't.

If you had actually read Watchmen you'd know that. Yes he does.But he knows his whole past and future.He chose the things he did his whole life but he stills lives it simultaneously.

And yes I did read the watchmen.I hate it when people insinuate that I didn't read and arc that I did just because my opinion of it differs form theirs.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
How am I wanking him?I said Doom would out prep him easy.But Ozy didn't outsmart Jon.Outsmarting him would mean he beat Jon in some way or won something against him.Or something that proved he was better in any way.So unless you consider using tachyons as winning he didn't outsmart him.chill, i actually said Manhattan wins both.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
And BTW why you looking at Manhattans dick? biscuits 'cause it's blue and glowing! sneer

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Yes he does.But he knows his whole past and future.He chose the things he did his whole life but he stills lives it simultaneously.

And yes I did read the watchmen.I hate it when people insinuate that I didn't read and arc that I did just because my opinion of it differs form theirs.
No he never chose a damn thing. He knows what he's going to do before he does it and can't do a thing to change it because it's *already* happened and he's like an observer.

As he says:

"We're all puppets. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."

Originally posted by marwash22
chill, i actually said Manhattan wins both.

'cause it's blue and glowing! sneer

^

Manhattan doesn't believe on free will, that alone makes him kind of not have free will.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
No he never chose a damn thing. He knows what he's going to do before he does it and can't do a thing to change it because it's *already* happened and he's like an observer.

As he says:

"We're all puppets. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings." So you and I don't make choices?If the answer if no then you believe that something or someone already planned everything out.If the answer is yes then manhattan would still make choices like the rest of the puppets because by his words he still is one.

Originally posted by Bentley
Manhattan doesn't believe on free will, that alone makes him kind of not have free will.
Alan Moore made the Watchmen Universe very deterministic. We're not talking about some Jean Paul Sartre type "if you choose believe you are without free will then you will not have free will, except you will because you chose that way".

Originally posted by Bentley
Manhattan doesn't believe on free will, that alone makes him kind of not have free will. He doesn't do what he feels like just what is most logical.It doesn't mean he can't do what he feels like.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
He doesn't do what he feels like just what is most logical.It doesn't mean he can't do what he feels like.
How do you not understand the concept of determinism?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
How do you not understand the concept of determinism? He's like 14

Originally posted by Omega Vision
How do you not understand the concept of determinism? which is?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
which is?
The idea that all events are predetermined and thus free will is an illusion at best.

Watchmen's Universe is a deterministic Universe.

If you believe in an Omniscient God then you're a determinist by default.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

If you believe in an Omniscient God then you're a determinist by default. Not really.

Originally posted by Mindset
Not really.
Yeah. If God knows how all events will unfold then there is no way they can unfold otherwise.

So either God doesn't know what you're going to do next (meaning you have a choice) and he's not Omniscient, or he does and you have no choice.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
How do you not understand the concept of determinism? Originally posted by Black bolt z
which is? bullshit.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah. If God knows how all events will unfold then there is no way they can unfold otherwise.

So either God doesn't know what you're going to do next (meaning you have a choice) and he's not Omniscient, or he does and you have no choice. Youre talking about predestination, which isn't the same as determinism. God knowing what will happen wouldn't take away free will, as the choice was still made by the person, and not determined by god.

Originally posted by Mindset
Youre talking about predestination, which isn't the same as determinism. God knowing what will happen wouldn't take away free will, as the choice was still made by the person, and not determined by god. Either way Doom is FUBAR.

Originally posted by marwash22
BBZ, get off Manhattan's giant blue dick.

Actually, if you saw the comic, it's more of a teeny tiny glowing blue dick.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah. If God knows how all events will unfold then there is no way they can unfold otherwise.

So either God doesn't know what you're going to do next (meaning you have a choice) and he's not Omniscient, or he does and you have no choice.


You also assume that time -as we know it- exists and that the way we experiment the universe actually affects the perception that God has about the universe. For all we know everything happens at the same time and free will is built around just experiencing certain things at a certain given way.

Manhattan thinks that the universe is deterministic, but the fact he got outsmarted kind of proves his conception of the world is limited by his perception. If there are blind spots in what you perceive as everything, your -perceived- inability to "change" anything is skewed too.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Actually, if you saw the comic, it's more of a teeny tiny glowing blue dick. not when he's 30 feet tall.

Originally posted by marwash22
not when he's 30 feet tall.

Relative to the height, still pretty small. :P

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Relative to the height, still pretty small. :P you wouldn't say that if he were trying to penetrate you. sneer

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Actually, if you saw the comic, it's more of a teeny tiny glowing blue dick. Aka. A glowstick. ermmhappy

Originally posted by Mindset
Youre talking about predestination, which isn't the same as determinism. God knowing what will happen wouldn't take away free will, as the choice was still made by the person, and not determined by god.
But that choice was just an illusion as you couldn't have chosen otherwise.

Predestination is just another form of determinism.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Relative to the height, still pretty small. :P

Originally posted by Omega Vision
But that choice was just an illusion as you couldn't have chosen otherwise.

Predestination is just another form of determinism.


Unless everything happens at once!!!!

ha-son

Dr. Manhattan is a being with quantum-mechanical powers. Doctor Doom is a monarch, a position he obtained by being a brilliant scientist as well as a gifted sorceror. Arguments that have already been brought up are "Dr. Manhattan can just wish the enemy out of existence" versus "Dr. Doom absorbed powers of comic entities before. Why would Dr. Manhattan be an exception?"

However, I see a different way the fight might play out - if you read the stories of Doctor Doom, there is often a plot-twist that is genuinely surprising. For a villain, he usually beats the odds by tricks of mind that the superheroes do not see coming. Allow me to illustrate.

Now, Dr. Manhattan, being a cosmic entity, can make anything happen, whatever he wants, whenever he wants it. A normal human being has goals, that is, he seeks a certain state of the world to come about. Through causality and thinking in steps, he can eventually make this state of the world come about. When it happens, we usually say: "the person has obtained his goal". This is how Doom reasons, going by what he says when the American university recruits him: "I have need of nothing but my mind, my ability to see further into the future than any other man." Dr Manhattan sees all possible states of the universe at once, and he can choose to make any of them come about. That is, he could make a state of the world come about in which Doom's atoms are scattered in the wind. Then, being a logical being, he would need a ground on which to prefer that particular state of the world. This gives Doom an opening to bargain. A being that can make anything happen whenever he wishes, has no need for causal reasoning. And if you possess an infinite amount of possibilities, it also becomes hard to see why you would prefer any one thing over another. Doom does not possess such abilities so he has to work his way towards his goals step by step. He stays focused on his goals but he keeps the circumstances into account, so that he can manipulate any circumstantial factor to come closer to his goals. This is why Dr. Doom has developed an incredibly strong Willpower.

We have to take into account that Dr. Doom is a gifted mystic. The moment Dr. Manhattan would consider the state of the world in which the atoms of Dr. Doom are scattered into the wind, he would form a mental image of Dr. Doom. At that point, through his mystic powers, Dr. Doom would be able to see the same images as Dr. Manhattan sees; he sees all the infinite possible states of the universe. However at that moment, Dr. Manhattan would order the atoms of Dr. Doom's armor to fall apart, and after that he would order the molecules of Victor's body to dissipate.

However it would later be revealed that Doctor Doom has returned in a new and more powerful state of being than ever. Because in that brief moment that he existed as a mental image in the mind of Dr. Manhattan, he had used the extreme power of his Will to bend Dr. Manhattan into making the state of the universe come about in which Dr. Doom's scattering molecules would bounce against other molecules and through an extreme causal prediction new atoms would come together to form a Doctor Doom that has the same abilities as Dr. Manhattan. Nobody has foreseen this ability, since how could Dr. Doom influence the mind of Dr. Manhattan when his physical body no longer existed? It is through his mystic abilities, because being a mental image in the mind of Dr. Manhattan, he could see all the possible states of the universe, including states in which his atoms would come together again to remake his body. So his extreme force of Will has allowed the mystic to linger in existence. Now if one says that a mental image without a body can have no power, then we have to admit that Dr. Manhattan has no real body, he has an existence without substance, so to say, he exists as a pure form of mind. And the mental image of Dr. Doom was part of this mind-form. As soon as Dr. Manhattan tries to erase Dr. Doom from his memory, the extreme force of Doom's Will would push back against this, and might possibly overtake the conscience of Dr. Manhattan. Doom would probably expand his influence over the conscience of Dr. Manhattan a little bit at a time, and eventually he would not even need to regain a physical existence.

And this is how I see that Doctor Doom might still gain an unexpected win, not owing to straightforward use of his impressive technology but on his unique character and mind. Remember, in the rule of comic books, superheroes usually have everything going for them: They cooperate better, have more courage and are willing to press on further for the things they believe in. That's why superheroes usually win, not because they have the technological advantage, but because they are morally superior. This is the field where Doom rivals the superheroes, since he rarely shows fear, never panics, and is always more determined. Normally the superheroes are the ones with creativity of mind, but Doom comes up with out-of-the-box approaches to overcome situations that even the reader doesn't see coming. So it are these qualities that I think he would rely on in a fight against Dr. Manhattan, and that he has to rely on would he have to stand a chance.

Doom wins both. M is so overrated with his very limited feats.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
So you and I don't make choices?If the answer if no then you believe that something or someone already planned everything out. False.

Not believing in a 'choice' doesn't logically indicate believing in a 'plan'.

Doom.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Doom. how...in the nonprep situation?

Originally posted by Starscream M
how...in the nonprep situation?

Depends on how the fight goes down, in all honesty. I've seen nothing to suggest how someone like Manhattan for all his power would deal with some of Doom's high end tech or spells.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
No he doesn't have free will, what's more he knows he doesn't.

If you had actually read Watchmen you'd know that. actually in the end he acknowledges the existence of miracles. That in and of itself means that he believes the order of the universe can be challenged. You would need to see if it causes him to try and challenge the future when he acknowledges that an impossible event occured.

Manhattan is far from being Surfer lvl. I still think he'd win on the second scenario, but barely: maybe 6/10. Because there's a good chance that Doom **** his shit with magic, wich Manhattan won't see coming. He won't be able to react to that unnatural, chaotic force, and it could really cause his defeat. But most often then not, he dismantle Doom's armor, and kill him.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Manhattan is far from being Surfer lvl. I still think he'd win on the second scenario, but barely: maybe 6/10. Because there's a good chance that Doom **** his shit with magic, wich Manhattan won't see coming. He won't be able to react to that unnatural, chaotic force, and it could really cause his defeat. But most often then not, he dismantle Doom's armor, and kill him. how about seeing all of his personal time line simultaneously.

Originally posted by Starscream M
how...in the nonprep situation? Magic.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Magic. um how about an instant molecular deconstruction as is standard manhattan M.O. He would need to have shields in place from the get go to stop it.

Originally posted by Uriel005
um how about an instant molecular deconstruction as is standard manhattan M.O. He would need to have shields in place from the get go to stop it. Isn't that what doom has?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Isn't that what doom has? But will it stop molecular deconstruction blitz from a being who can "observe events so tiny and so small that they can hardly have been said to occurred at all". I think with prep he can win but 2 should be a 10 for 10 stomp in Manhattans favor. Even in scenario 1 wouldn't it be taken into account that John would look into his future. See what Doom was going to prepare and know what he himself was going prep in answer to anything Doom can do. John's greatest power IMO is the absolute clarity with which he can see through time and the ability is built into his perception of the future so that things that he sees himself doing in the future takes into account that he is actively looking IIRC. Besides at the end of Watchmen he makes the active choice to go against his inherent beliefs that miracles are impossible allowing for the fact that he may indeed decide to one day go against what he sees the future as.

Originally posted by Uriel005
But will it stop molecular deconstruction blitz from a being who can "observe events so tiny and so small that they can hardly have been said to occurred at all". I think with prep he can win but 2 should be a 10 for 10 stomp in Manhattans favor. Even in scenario 1 wouldn't it be taken into account that John would look into his future. See what Doom was going to prepare and know what he himself was going prep in answer to anything Doom can do. John's greatest power IMO is the absolute clarity with which he can see through time and the ability is built into his perception of the future so that things that he sees himself doing in the future takes into account that he is actively looking IIRC. Besides at the end of Watchmen he makes the active choice to go against his inherent beliefs that miracles are impossible allowing for the fact that he may indeed decide to one day go against what he sees the future as. Jon looking into his future does him no good.

Jon admitted himself he cannot change what is going to happen. So the only difference that will make is he will know if he is going to win or lose. It won't change the outcome.