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uhuh

Originally posted by psycho gundam
uhuh
peaches

If Nate can get his shields up before Surfer blitzes, then his chances of winning are pretty good. If not, Surfer wins.

Silver Surfer

Originally posted by Galan007
If Nate can get his shields up before Surfer blitzes, then his chances of winning are pretty good. If not, Surfer wins.

Precog gets shields up before surfer hits. Also Cable is a tactical genius as well as having many years of practical experience.

Have to give this to Xman 6-7/10 over surfer. Surfer's psy resistance maybe high but it isn't going to compare to someone whos powers have been called near equal to phoenix force avatars/ Dark Phoenix and has only increased in skill since then. Xman to my knowledge hasn't really been nerfed and his power and control keeps going up and up. Giving him the capacity of Cable for control as well as his own which it is likely he removed his vampiric infection from Morbius with he will psychic stomp surfer.

Surfer does have more experience but not necessarily more raw power than xman and in bloodlusted state I think that further works in Xman's favor. Surfer would do better without it IMO in this case.

However Xman with Cable experience even without bloodlust I'm not really sure how Surfer could beat Nate in a straight fight.

Only real way I see surfer doing it is go back in time and kill Nate before he comes into his powers.

^ Nate needs to have his shields up if he's going to last. Otherwise this would end much like the Surfer/Jesus-Cable battle, me thinks.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Nate needs to have his shields up if he's going to last. Otherwise this would end much like the Surfer/Jesus-Cable battle, me thinks.

Like I said Nate has precognition. He'll have the shields up.

^ I don't necessarily disagree, I was just throwing that out there.

bump

what would the shields provide nate with?

last i check he is mostly intangible for the most part.

not saying that SS cant hit him but, should give nate a few precious seconds to raise shields and what not while SS calibrates his attacks.

Originally posted by King Castle
what would the shields provide nate with? Shielding? dur313

Time to say to Surfer "I'm sorry".


Norrin's philosophical training makes him ask himself if he's doing the right thing. Then Grey mind-rapes using that weakness

Originally posted by Bentley
Time to say to Surfer "I'm sorry".


Norrin's philosophical training makes him ask himself if he's doing the right thing. Then Grey mind-rapes using that weakness Shouldn't you be outside and wreak havoc on the streets of france?

I Surfer's sheer versatility wins. I don't think X-Man's shields would hold up to a blackhole, and Surfer's also got speed on his side. I'm an X-Man fanboy, but I can't see him taking more than 1-2/10, especially without CIS. If Nate started with his shield up, I can't see it staying up for more than a hit or 2.

Surfer's "philosophy" has sort of been changed after his Galactus upgrade in Annihilation.

If the Surfer were looking to kill the opponent, which it seems he is, given the bloodlust, plus full knowledge of his opponent, it would be a difficult fight, but I'm pretty sure Surfer would win.

And if not, he'd just make a black hole and be done with the whole thing.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Unless it's surfer amped to beyond galactus level he's not going to take it from Nate. You can pretty much easily list the number of beings able to beat Nate.


O_o

Have I missed something big from Nate or what? I mean I saw the Ares thing and it was impressive, but it takes a pretty big gun to take Norrin for the majority...

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
O_o

One series LT shows Surfer image of Zen'la surfer rages and boosts power levels over 9000 Galactus goes WTF and wonders. Basically it's understood that the Surfer has complete control over his power cosmic and can basically say I power cosmic more power cosmic into existance but he does it unconsciously. Will look for scans not exactly sure where that is.

Originally posted by Uriel005
One series LT shows Surfer image of Zen'la surfer rages and boosts power levels over 9000 Galactus goes WTF and wonders. Basically it's understood that the Surfer has complete control over his power cosmic and can basically say I power cosmic more power cosmic into existance but he does it unconsciously. Will look for scans not exactly sure where that is.

o_O

Originally posted by Uriel005

Unless it's surfer amped to beyond galactus level he's not going to take it from Nate. You can pretty much easily list the number of beings able to beat Nate.

High end reality manipulaters Jaspers, Richards, peak Phoenix,

Beings that can bring to absurd amounts of energy to the field, galactus, beyonder, inbetweener pre-retcon, Abstracts.

Some thinkers, prepmasters, and high end mages
peak classic strange, Doom, Reed, kid omega, few others but you get the idea. Most trans level characters and above could take SNG down and some HH could do it too, depending on their powerset.

This one could really go either way.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Just saying of his powers to use against Nate it's the only real way I see him winning.

Also to prior comment about power versatility, Power versatility doesn't count for anything in the face of fewer powers with raw and overwhelming force.

Unless it's surfer amped to beyond galactus level he's not going to take it from Nate. You can pretty much easily list the number of beings able to beat Nate.

High end reality manipulaters Jaspers, Richards, peak Phoenix,

Beings that can bring to absurd amounts of energy to the field, galactus, beyonder, inbetweener pre-retcon, Abstracts.

Some thinkers, prepmasters, and high end mages
peak classic strange, Doom, Reed, kid omega, few others but you get the idea.
No what I mean is. I think its highly unreasonable for Surfer to go back in time, and kill Nate. Nate would know of Surfers intentions thanks to his pre-cog/ability to view the entire timeline, backed with the ability to manipulate time with more freighting ease.

Originally posted by "Id"
No what I mean is. I think its highly unreasonable for Surfer to go back in time, and kill Nate. Nate would know of Surfers intentions thanks to his pre-cog/ability to view the entire timeline, backed with the ability to manipulate time with more freighting ease. He sees the tree of possible events branching out before him, he's not Manhatan and doesn't see the entire timeline, he sees the many possible outcomes and plays it off them. SS can likely follow him into planck time like ares did as he can timetravel and cross dimensional borders by himself. Tracking him with his cosmic senses and CA shouldn't be an issue either.

This is a toss up as there are too many variables here. Battle can go to the astral plane, the real wolrd, planck time, other dimensions SS takes them to, etc.

SNG can probably mindrape SS eventually, but it might end before that with a massive energy attack that depletes SNG's reserves - his energy levels were still inconsistant during dark x-men which makes this even more likely.

Originally posted by rader
If Nate started with his shield up, I can't see it staying up for more than a hit or 2. Nate's shielding has easily withstood a direct blast from the planet buster Qabiri:
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7156/nateqabiri2.jpg

Hell, even pre-Shaman Nate's shields held up against repeated punches from Modt himself:
http://img7.imageshack.us/i/natemodt2.jpg/
http://img710.imageshack.us/i/natemodt3.jpg/
http://img34.imageshack.us/i/natemodt4.jpg/

And just for a point of reference, Modt was a thousand times more powerful than Jahf (the little fuzzy dude who easily owned Gladiator):
http://img710.imageshack.us/i/natemodt1.jpg/


Point being: IF Surfer is capable of getting past Nate's shields, it'd likely take more than "a hit or two." Imo.

^

I was just saying that if Nate's shields were up, Surfer wouldn't be 'easily' getting through them (if at all.)

I know what you mean. Nate trading Shots with Modt is one of his most monstrous, and overlooked feats. I am just saying that Nate should be able to endow himself with the same class of durability, without the shields.

But what do I know, I am just a fanboy. biscuits

^ I agree... Especially with the fanboy part. sneer

I am to X-Man, what Darthgoober is to Silver Surfer. vin

Originally posted by "Id"
We know he can time travel, and transverse various dimensional planes within a reality. But changing from one reality to the next is a different ballgame. Surfer needed to ride the Cosmic Swell, or some form of dimensional rift. Otherwise no I cant think of an instance where he did so under his own power.
The Cosmic Swell thing wasn't just outside the universe, it was outside the Marvel Multiverse/Omniverse. Surfer's shown to be able to travel to/from the Microverse, Negaverse, alternate dimensions, alternate timelines, and I don't even know where all else, BFRing him really isn't much of an option.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The Cosmic Swell thing wasn't just outside the universe, it was outside the Marvel Multiverse/Omniverse. Surfer's shown to be able to travel to/from the Microverse, Negaverse, alternate dimensions, alternate timelines, and I don't even know where all else, BFRing him really isn't much of an option.

Your response lacks the omitted feat of traveling to a different reality.

Originally posted by "Id"
Your response lacks the omitted feat of traveling to a different reality.
Alternate timelines ARE alternate realities(and the Microverse and Negaverse arguably qualify as well).

^ Id get your ass over to the Dark Schneider vs Dr Strange thread. Aren't you a Schneider fan? sneer

Originally posted by Omega Vision
^ Id get your ass over to the Dark Schneider vs Dr Strange thread. Aren't you a Schneider fan? sneer

Awwww Shit, I didn't even know we had one here.

Originally posted by "Id"
Awwww Shit, I didn't even know we had one here.
It's pinned.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t540558.html

^ ...

I've lost all track of this discussion with the reveal that darthgoober watches Sailor Moon...

... whatever.

Surfer wins.

Still say Nate is a strong enough psychic hold SS back long enough to mind pwn him.

^ Yeah but... Mystique was equipped with psychic baffles that blocked Nate's tp completely.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Still say Nate is a strong enough psychic hold SS back long enough to mind pwn him.
And people deem Surfer the most versatile of the two. smurph

^ Balancing out his "low showings" with his "high showings" makes it arguable that his tp would overwhelm Surfer. That's without taking into account Surfer's abilities, much less his personal resistance. He's completely shut off psionics in an area of effect.

On what level?? where? Was it reliant on them being lower than SS in psychic ability or was it energy manip. Honestly surfer being able to energy Manip anyone should make him theoretically unbeatable by forum rules. Hell as I've said before he breaks conservation of energy and matter laws by maniping his energy higher than what he starts with.

^ Cable got wrecked by Surfer at the peak of his powers... anyway: Originally posted by Uriel005
On what level?? where? Was it reliant on them being lower than SS in psychic ability or was it energy manip. Honestly surfer being able to energy Manip anyone should make him theoretically unbeatable by forum rules. Hell as I've said before he breaks conservation of energy and matter laws by maniping his energy higher than what he starts with. Was looking for the scan. Turns out the instance I was thinking of was Surfer just negated the negation of psionics in an area of effect that kept the thing psychically hidden from Galactus.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Hell as I've said before he breaks conservation of energy and matter laws by maniping his energy higher than what he starts with. But almost every character is like that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Cable got wrecked by Surfer at the peak of his powers... anyway:
That was an odd curve ball.

But if you want to be fair, Surfer fought a debilitated Cable. Truth is, X-Man is more powerful then Cable.

^ You were talking about how Cable was able to overcome psi disruptors. I hardly saw that as helpful... since Surfer pretty much stomped God Cable.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ You were talking about how Cable was able to overcome psi disruptors. I hardly saw that as helpful... since Surfer pretty much stomped God Cable.

I commented about Psi-Disruptors effecting Cable, in response to you comment about how Surfer negated psi over an area.

^ Well I'll just assume there was miscommunication. I thought you brought up say psi disruptors having little to no effect on Cable to suggest that a cone of psilence wouldn't affect Nate.

Ok its official Warren makes awesome character notes.crylaugh0

Originally posted by darthgoober
Screw you man Sailor Moon's funny Sailor Moon has lesbians. I'm sold.

Originally posted by Uriel005
On what level?? where? Was it reliant on them being lower than SS in psychic ability or was it energy manip. Honestly surfer being able to energy Manip anyone should make him theoretically unbeatable by forum rules. Hell as I've said before he breaks conservation of energy and matter laws by maniping his energy higher than what he starts with.
It was enough to hide the guy from Galactus, and Surfer took down with no visible effort.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Sailor Moon has lesbians. I'm sold.
And Sailor Saturn's freakin hot...

If I were a toon or in a "Cool World" situation... I'd do her.

Originally posted by darthgoober


But since you want to focus on plot specific abilities and feats, has Nate ever shown himself capable of escaping a floating cosmic limbo created from pure spatial energy?

I honestly cant say that he has.

Has Surfer ever escaped being transfixed, locked between time/space?

Now if you will excuse me, I will now sit back read through these pair of goodies. peaches
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7449/comicse.th.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7449/comicse.jpg

Originally posted by "Id"
I honestly cant say that he has.

Has Surfer ever escaped being transfixed, locked between time/space? Has Nate ever survived having his gene altered?

^ So Shaman Nate Grey is manifesting as pure psionic energy here...

... do you realize what you're setting Nate up for?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ So Shaman Nate Grey is manifesting as pure psionic energy here...

... do you realize what you're setting Nate up for?
Energy to Mass conversion:
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4462/darkxmen001021.th.jpghttp://img180.imageshack.us/img180/8703/darkxmen001022.th.jpghttp://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5393/darkxmen001023.th.jpg



Careful I know what you are alluding to, attempting to absorb Nate could be one those Big Risks-Low Rewards deal. mhmm

^ Nate being staggered by creating his faux body does not inspire confidence.

I had assumed that Nate was starting out this fight without being limited to being a purely psionic construct. I perceive that as a significant handicap.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Nate being staggered by creating his faux body does not inspire confidence.

I had assumed that Nate was starting out this fight without being limited to being a purely psionic construct. I perceive that as a significant handicap.

Oh I thought this was by current times, where his is using the stolen energy to create his faux body instead of pissing away gallons of energy reconstruct his dispersed being. Just to be clear, those scans was to show he can do energy to mass conversion, and vice versa.

Originally posted by "Id"
I honestly cant say that he has.

Has Surfer ever escaped being transfixed, locked between time/space?

Now if you will excuse me, I will now sit back read through these pair of goodies. peaches
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7449/comicse.th.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7449/comicse.jpg
Does it really matter if Nate gets stuck in a floating cosmic limbo right out of the gate?

I haven't been following this thread but is the argument is that Surfer can't travel to different universes?

^ It's about lesbian cartoon characters. crackers

Reported for being off-topic. uhuh

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ It's about lesbian cartoon characters. crackers

Reported for being off-topic. uhuh I see

Anyway for licks
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/5134/universes.jpg
Surfer travels thousand Universes and finds the Decimators.

I think the argument was that Nate could send surfer outside the omniverse or something to that extent and whether or not the surfer could cross barriers that Watchers couldn't.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Nate being staggered by creating his faux body does not inspire confidence.

I had assumed that Nate was starting out this fight without being limited to being a purely psionic construct. I perceive that as a significant handicap. He was much more stable by the following number. This time he drained a little bit of psionic energy from a lot of people to from an avatar in the physical world.

Surfer would prolly just blitz Nate and disperse him before he can form a suitable defense. Dispersing him WOULD count as a win.

Also, other than telepathy (w/c the Surfer has shown some ability in), Surfer pretty much has the got the better higher end feats between the two. Planet smashing. Tanking planet killing attacks. Making black holes. Matter manipulation on a planetary scale. Etc. What does Nate has that would trump the Surfer's top end feats?

That is, of course, Nate has similar/equal speed feats to Surfer's.

Some interesting arguments. Nate's a very high end opponent, but IMO Surfer just has the tools to take most people near his class. In this case his ability to transmute matter as well as modulate and convert energy. It's not a slight to Nate's standing by any means that Surfer has a tactical avenue to defeat him, just like it isn't for Superman.

Superman vs. Nate would be very interesting though.

Originally posted by illadelph12

Superman vs. Nate would be very interesting though. Not really, SM is too limited to physical attacks to take SNG, his default state is intangible now.

According to many Superman has the ability to vibrate himself to a harmonic which allows him to become intangible and/or interact with intangible objects/opponents. He supposedly can also alter his heat vision frequency in a similar fashion. I'm pretty sure an argument can and will be made given how staunch the Supes supporters are.

These threads are more relevant to the battlezone forum with the similar stipulations. I also don't really want repeat threads in the vs forum. Moved.

Counter-vibration was used to destroy (or disperse) DS's vibrational energy form, but claiming it as kill-all plot device that can be used on anything in the forums is stretching it a bit. Its use is unlikely, SNG can step into another dimension to avoid it (he can learn of it and anticpate its use through TP and precog) or put SM down before he uses it.

The idea that everything (according to SM) has a vibration and can be cancelled by a counter-vibration doesn't mean a priori that SM knows what all the vibrations would be or that he can replicate them. It's also a concept inherent to the DC universe, in a neutral one, we could expect it to work, but at the same time, other characters, might not be made of said vibrations. Whether or not SNG could reform afterwards (survive or escape into the astral plane or whatever) or even if it would work remain somewhat speculative.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Surfer would prolly just blitz Nate and disperse him before he can form a suitable defense. Dispersing him WOULD count as a win.

Also, other than telepathy (w/c the Surfer has shown some ability in), Surfer pretty much has the got the better higher end feats between the two. Planet smashing. Tanking planet killing attacks. Making black holes. Matter manipulation on a planetary scale. Etc. What does Nate has that would trump the Surfer's top end feats?

That is, of course, Nate has similar/equal speed feats to Surfer's.

Ok so your claiming the following.


Speed Blitz option.
The option permanently take him down by dispersing him.
Better stats (Taking/Dishing Planet Smashing attacks).
Planetary Matter Manipulation.


With your comment ending if Nate can match, or rival Surfers speed. Lets tackle these one by one, starting by your opening/ending statement. The Speed issue. Why would Nate be worried about Norrins nanosecond reaction, if Nate is operating on Planck Units? The idea that Surfer could blitz Nate is unreasonable, if he is perceiving the world in strikingly smaller units of time.

Originally posted by "Id"
Ok so your claiming the following.


Speed Blitz option.
The option permanently take him down by dispersing him.
Better stats (Taking/Dishing Planet Smashing attacks).
Planetary Matter Manipulation.


With your comment ending if Nate can match, or rival Surfers speed. Lets tackle these one by one, starting by your opening/ending statement. The Speed issue. Why would Nate be worried about Norrins nanosecond reaction, if Nate is operating on Planck Units? The idea that Surfer could blitz Nate is unreasonable, if he is perceiving the world in strikingly smaller units of time. a Doesn't he have to activelly go into planck time to access that? I don't think he perceives the world that way constantly. His reactions seemed human-like when he was last interacing with other characters.

b dispersing him wouldnt have lasting effects, his mind would survive and reform a body to interact with the physical world again. But it could count as a temp win.

c SNG could walk through almost any level of blast dished at him by avoiding the damage (phasing, dimensionshift, etc) instead of tanking it, so his faux matter body durabilty isn't a big issue. Still, energy manipulation and more exotic attacks should harm him.

d this would pin SS's control over matter against SNG's. SS has the better feats in this departament

This could go either way.

Originally posted by "Id"
He literally perceives the world in Planck Moments. Nate only stepped into the Planck Time, to give himself (& Mimic) a momentary pause, and break down how his Extra Sensory Perception works. Just for clarification, I'd like to expand on what Planck Time is:
The Plack Length is:

Now I want everybody to take a deep breath and absorb that. I really mean it, try to understand that and take it in.

ID says that's how fast Nate's perceptions are constantly.

..

This might just be the worst display of common sense/logic failure I've ever seen on this forum.

i lol'd

Thats comic science for yahhh..

I actually think SNg is the finer user of power out of the two, but SS's raw power high end feats are definitely better.

Nah!! I've never seen Nate manipulate matter/energies as complex as Surfer like for ex. making a deviant body w/ complete abilities, evolving a single human or a whole planet, there is also configuring quantum, interstellar, red-sol, soul, psi, magic etc.. energies, healing, binding, transporting, etc, etc, etc.. Also when it comes to higher energy output; there is that blackhole or solar destructive feat course given enough energy to absorb...

Like i said his just far more skilled in the use of his powers compared to Nate as shown in those feats mention ++++ theres more, same with energy output.. Less of course nate got some major feats ive missed recently..

Nate felt out of control with his powers gimping out. But he explains how Gwen was created with relative ease, on a stray thought.

To me your brining up examples of how experienced Surfer uses his power of cosmic, one high point at a time. And I concede he is the better matter/energy manipulator of the two. If

However in carrying out his practice, with excellent performance I give the nod to Nate. Because with his one ability (Psionics), he is able to multitask, and handle a great deal big or exotic abilities on the fly. That requires a great amount of skill. Because I am not talking about pulling one big feat at a time, relaying on such accomplishment would be unpractical. But carrying out several big abilities at once, that requires skill to match its raw power.


While he fought the Surfer.
He held the floating City Providence.
Maintained a Telepathic link to every living human on the planet.
The instant those pacific fleets where vaporized, they where atomically reconstructed.


While he held Providence a float, and covered the globe with his telepathy
Four days rerouting the waterways to flood half Sahara.
Two days to throw out every logger out of the Amazon rain forest.
Two hours a day soothing the pain of every person on the planet dying of any kind of disease.
Stopping the white blood count deterioration of every AIDS victim in Africa.
Straining the leaning tower of Pisa
Stopping a daily average of 14 individual acts of terrorism
1,100 attempted murders.
7,000 car accidents

I took it as more to do with the scope of his power - a stray thought from Parker shaped by Nates powers - basically it had nothing to do with Nate thinking therefore requiring no skill in that feat, his powers just auto recreated her.

I had thought we were discussing Shaman Nate not Cable, less i'm missing something. It has been a while and i've missed some back issues of X-Man..

Anyhow.. Surfer has done something similar in regards to those feats you mentioned from merging with planet Earth and at the same time erecting shields in big cities, fixed global catastrophe all over the glove from Tidal wave, Earth Quakes, riots, etc.. Then there was the plaque he removed @ a molecular level from millions of corpses a single body at time and to make sure that science couldn't detect any manipulation of it. There is also his combat feats against a Shiar ship were he use forcefield and energy drained at the same time, etc.. etc.. His actually done this kinda showing a lot, displaying diff. abilities, multitasking in a single issue..

Originally posted by "Id"

Straining the leaning tower of Pisa


What a dick. What does he have against cultural monuments?

Originally posted by Ambient


I had thought we were discussing Shaman Nate not Cable, less i'm missing something. It has been a while and i've missed some back issues of X-Man..


I granted X-Man all of Cables knowledge/experience. Its in the opening post.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
What a dick. What does he have against cultural monuments?
He admits he ****ed up on that one.

Originally posted by "Id"
I granted X-Man all of Cables knowledge/experience. Its in the opening post.
Ahh! My bad...

Still i'm sticking with my argument.. Surfer can pretty much match or perhaps even is greater than Nates multitasking; showing off diff. exotic abilities on the fly as i've given some examples in my previous post, so that and his capacity to pull of big feat as mention should be enough to warrant > against Nate in regards to complete mastery in matter/energy manipulation.. This and the fact that his shown to have greater raw energy output is why i think he wins...

You do know that Surfer can do all those you mention right? The only ability Nate trumps him is telepathy and just a slight edge at that, then we take a look at his defensive showing against this type of attack from opponent who perhaps equal or even rival Nate - There is the goddess w/ several cosmic cube, Moondragons w/ soul gem, the great one to name a few - Surfer pretty much showed very high tp resistance against this cosmic being.. So you can pretty much tell that whatever Nate can master with a tp assault, Surfer can block it or either shake it off, He is not going to lose with that type of attack.. My 2 cents..

X-Man's telepathy is being gauged because he expelled Xavier from the astral plane? Moondragon, wtfpwned Xavier with a telepathic blast slumping him into being a vegetable in Infinity Crusade #3.

And then, a few pages later in that same issue, Surfer tanked Moondragon's telepathic assault and just went into superhero pose.

The point i was trying to make was that Surfer possesses very high mental defenses, proven by the many feats i've previously mentioned and not that he is totally immune to it, thought on one occasions he created a shield that supposed to stop TP intrusion but im not going to focus on that one at this time however what i am going to focus on is his high tolerance against this sort of attack, as he has demonstrated. Its going to take a lot of concentration for Nate to even get past/break that defensive wall, quite frankly a unfavorable and disadvantageous move on his part as he would be unable to multitask and be open to diff. attacks..

You mention both 2 incident - Grand practitioner Tey and the Virus - both affected Surfer perception of reality, now there are a few things that need to be addressed in those events; 1st off he allowed it to happen, 2nd his senses where never at a loss, 3rd he never loss his grasp of reality, and 4th he could sync out of it at any time... This pretty much is a poor ex. of tp feat against Surfer as his mind was in no real danger...

My proof is in Surfer tp defenses to which was given by example.. If my memory serves me correctly there where only two beings in his entire history to successfully and forcibly affect/changed Surfer via tp; Galactus and the Goddess.. I just don't think Nate is on the same league as the two i mentioned above at this moment for both control and power telepathically..

Yes i do understand that Nate is one of the biggest tier in that leaque but what you also need to understand is that Surfer has faced beings in the same class or even higher and come out on top.. Being compared is good and all but you need actual feat to actually be equal, less now were saying Surfer = MM since they been compared before..

So to sum it up - Nate needs a lot of concentration for tp assault to be of advantage however its a double edge sword as loss of concentration = unable to multitask = opening on his defenses = advantage to Surfer - ..

X-Man throws a monkey wrench at Surfer offensive matter manipulating arguments. Why? X-Man capacity to warp reality is part of his M.O. biatch!

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5023/newmutants260022.th.jpg

It makes no diff.. Surfer is unaffected by reality manipulation..

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/168/ssfightsoffrealcntrljd2.jpg/

nate grey for old time's sake(i.e. when i used to care).

Originally posted by Ambient
It makes no diff.. Surfer is unaffected by reality manipulation..

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/168/ssfightsoffrealcntrljd2.jpg/ he realized the warp was going on adn "broke the spell", but he is not immune to reality warping. not that it matters as SNG cant really do it on a whim

Right! Should da phrase it properly but the point is his not totally without any defense against this sort of attack..