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Just saw this and found it VERY interesting:
A3UpE-NnPXM

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Savage_Opress


Thoughts?

probably exaggerated and therefore noncanon.

^ Huh?

What part of that clip would you deem exaggerated?

throwing jedi clear through a room with the force? never happened in the movie, so Chee says its exaggerated.

TJ's anus has been sore for the past couple of days.

Another apprentice?

I bet Bane facepalms when seeing his Rule Of Two like this.

I bet Lucas hears cash registers whenever another episode airs.

Originally posted by truejedi
throwing jedi clear through a room with the force? never happened in the movie, so Chee says its exaggerated.

LOL! What do you think Dooku did to Kenobi and Anakin??

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Another apprentice?

I bet Bane facepalms when seeing his Rule Of Two like this.

Apparently thery're going to explore the Rule of Two in this episode, as well as the whole Force being out of Balance thing.

P.s. Freeze where Savage is fighting droids. He takes out 3 Destroyer Droids with the Force!

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
TJ's anus has been sore for the past couple of days.

hey, don't knock it till you've tried it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL! What do you think Dooku did to Kenobi and Anakin??

never threw them both at once. Clearly exaggeration.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Apparently thery're going to explore the Rule of Two in this episode, as well as the whole Force being out of Balance thing.

P.s. Freeze where Savage is fighting droids. He takes out 3 Destroyer Droids with the Force!

3 Destroyer Droids with the Force!?!?!?! Horrible exaggeration! QGJ and Kenobi ran away from 1!!! and Kenobi, Anakin and Padme all froze when surrounded by them!!

Exaggerated!!! NON-CANON!!!!

Taking the exaggeration thing a little to far TJ.. And remember Dave Filoni saying how the powers in his show will be in line with the movies.

of course Dave Filoni would SAY that. then he goes out there and lets someone destroy THREE destroyer droids with the force. About as reliable as Kraya in all honesty...

Is that really so over the top with a character who they are showing as being a beast with the Force?? One who sends 2 Jedi flying simultaneously.

I mean Obiwan sends super droid Greivous flying 50feet or whatever. And Jedi have on many occasions taken out multiple (normal) droids with one TK hit.

Originally posted by truejedi
3 Destroyer Droids with the Force!?!?!?! Horrible exaggeration! QGJ and Kenobi ran away from 1!!! and Kenobi, Anakin and Padme all froze when surrounded by them!!

Exaggerated!!! NON-CANON!!!!



LOL.. Obiwan and Qui-gon were always cornered by them, and I doubt either of them are even close to Savage in the Force.

and P.s. they ran away from 2 not that it matters Lol

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Is that really so over the top with a character who they are showing as being a beast with the Force?? One who sends 2 Jedi flying simultaneously.


Something that is ALSO exaggerated.




He fell. Normal is WAAAY different than destroyers.

Originally posted by truejedi


Something that is ALSO exaggerated.

Lol not its not. Dooku Force threw Obiwan while kicking Anakin the other direction.




Originally posted by truejedi
He fell. Normal is WAAAY different than destroyers.

Fell? Yeah fell because Kenobi chucked him quite far crashing on to wall.

Look the biggest Force feat in the movies is Sidious throwing mutiple senate pods simultaneously, so unless a Force feat beats that you cant call it exaggerated. I dnt think taking out a few droids with TK quite beats that.

i dunno man, i'm just trying to enforce the things our man Chee said to be true..

Haha.. Well remember T-Canon is very close to G-Canon neway. T-Canon is created by and executive produced by Lucas himself. Chee cant overrule Lucas's Vision.

That's true. Let's just throw Chee out the window, shall we? (Defenstrate him, in other words)

Let's not. I like the canon system the way it is right now.

Yeah me too. Jedi/Sith shuldnt be invincible gods. And its all Lucas's world so obviously his vision should come first before we take other sources as canon.

then seriously, we have a canonicity problem on our hands. We all get to have a personal opinion of what is exaggerated and what is not.

G- Canon theres no issues. Id say same for T-Canon as its created by Lucas.

But If we know a show or certain medium is exaggerated e.g. CW mini, or TFU, then we know we cant compare those feats to feats of a different medium. For instance we cant compare Mace's cw mini feats to Obi-wan's movie feats.
Although we could of course still compare characters sticking to the same medium, for example Galen Marek vs. Vader feats within TFU. Or Mace vs. Yoda feats within CW mini.

I suppose C-Canon Feats should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

I say that is complete bullshit. It's not up to us whether something is canon or not. We either take it all or we take none of it and since this is the EU forum we should do the former.

Originally posted by ares834
It's not up to us whether something is canon or not.


No it was supposed to be upto Chee, and we know what he's said.

Originally posted by ares834
We either take it all or we take none of it and since this is the EU forum we should do the former.

Then we're giving everything the same level of canonicity, and completely ignoring the G's and C's.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I suppose C-Canon Feats should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Actually this would be too complicated.

Ares is right. This is Eu forum, so treat everything as canon, unless theres a blatant and huge contradiciton to G and T stuff.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No it was supposed to be upto Chee, and we know what he's said.
What? That some stuff is exagerated... Yeah thats cool, but how can we tell what exagerated and not? The answer is we can't. In fact Leland Chee says it's all exagerated therefore according to you we can't use any of it... That's stupid as hell.



No. If G-canon contradicts C-canon than it simply overrides it... That doesn't mean the c-canon is any less canon, after all it still is.

I agree with Darth Power and think you're being pretty narrow minded on the subject ares.

What I propose is this:

If it doesn't directly contradict a higher form of canon or a more recent work of equivalent canonical status, isn't completely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon or the majority of works of equivalent canonical status, and the limitations and functions of the medium do not override the story that is being told, the background of the story, or what we know from behind the scenes of what's intended for the story when presenting the story, we treat the work as a fully accurate reflection of the fictional world of Star Wars, for all intents and purposes.

Perhaps we could create a thread where we all collectively apply this method to determining the revised canonicity of any given work or scene or action etc.. I'd rather it not be me as the likelihood is that Peach would probably close it.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
isn't completely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon or the majority of works of equivalent canonical status

You were doing great till this bit, but this bit is COMPLETELY subjective. Gideon would say that Luke's higher end feats are all completely unrealistic, and I would say Sidious's higher end feats are all completely and we would bicker about it endlessly, never agreeing, and neither one of us able to prove we are correct.

This WILL happen over and over again with us as well... starting with KOTOR....

I'll start, NIhilus draining a planet is COMPLETELY unrealistic. There. I started it.


I agree with Ares, its all canon... And I STILL want a time signature on that Chee quote. I asked for one twice and got nothing.

Hmm, I'm not so sure though you could possibly be correct. Perhaps I should have used different wording. Though thinking about it I still maintain that you can objectively state that something is unrealistic by simply comparing it to the real state of affairs, though it would certainly qualify as a relative term. Either way while two people can argue about what's realistic it doesn't mean that one of them can't be objectively wrong in saying it. But perhaps inconsistent would have been the better word to use?

Nihilus stays, I would think. His power rather than being driven by making the gameplay or animations etc. look "cool" is actually firmly rooted, and determined, by the storyline and his very characterisation. The Force is presented as a mystical, complex, and vastly powerful thing, full of possibilities and no other work conflicts or has any real contradictory bearing on the nature of the Force and wounds in the Force etc as far as its explored in KotOR 2.

Rather than gaining his power through normal means, Nihilus gains it through his unique status of being a wound in the Force. His power is essentially inexorably linked to both his characterisation, and the plot/central idea of the story. It doesn't conflict with other canon works, and rather than being a product (to any extent) of the medium, is the full product of the story.

Luke's later showings are also fine. The son of The Chosen One, a being who's strength in the Force was off the charts, far outshone his contemporaries, and who had a truly special and unique relationship with the Force: an omnipresent, vastly powerful energy source. As the movie exposits, the likelihood is that Anakin's considerable connection with the Force would have been passed on down to his children, and given the sheer experience Luke now has under his belt it wouldn't be crazy to assume that he would have already realised a huge portion of his potential. I don't think his greater showings are unrealistic at all; I'd imagine it's the same kind of stuff we would have seen from a full potential Anakin.

Sidious's showings on the other hand occur not much later after the movies where he's established as being nowhere near as powerful as he's depicted in DE, with little to no adequate explanation given to his vast rise in power. Take into account the fact that the entire story basically contradicts George Lucas's idea of the Chosen One in the first place and I think we can safely rule out Sidious's showings from the SW canon (and the entire story for that matter).

Originally posted by ares834
What? That some stuff is exagerated... Yeah thats cool, but how can we tell what exagerated and not?

Well we are told some entire mediums are exaggerated like Game Play(which is actually what his quote was addressing). In case of the TFU, I guess the novel would be the best source to go by.



Originally posted by ares834
The answer is we can't. In fact Leland Chee says it's all exagerated therefore according to you we can't use any of it... That's stupid as hell.

When did Leeland Chee say thats Everythings exaggerated?? When Dooku levitate's and paralyzes Quinlan Vos for instance, is that exagerrated?? Well no, especially not considering he does the same thing to Obi-Wan in ROTS.

Is Palpatine creating a Force Storm that wipes out entire fleets exaggerated?? Probably. I wnt cry about that, considering Dark Empire is just kiddish anyway.

But in any case to be honest anything post ROTJ is fine because Lucas has never touched that time period neway, and you have Luke becoming the most powerful Jedi ever, and Palpatine resurrected and more powerful than ever, so logically the feats would be above and beyond what we see in the movies. So I personally dnt see a contradiction there. But whatever.



Originally posted by ares834
No. If G-canon contradicts C-canon than it simply overrides it... That doesn't mean the c-canon is any less canon, after all it still is.

And Mace Windu taking out hundreds of droids by himself just using the Force isnt a huge Contradiction to what happened in AOTC?? Thats the kind of thing Chee is talking about.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Hmm, I'm not so sure though you could possibly be correct. Perhaps I should have used different wording. Though thinking about it I still maintain that you can objectively state that something is unrealistic by simply comparing it to the real state of affairs, though it would certainly qualify as a relative term. Either way while two people can argue about what's realistic it doesn't mean that one of them can't be objectively wrong in saying it. But perhaps inconsistent would have been the better word to use?

Nihilus stays, I would think. His power rather than being driven by making the gameplay or animations etc. look "cool" is actually firmly rooted, and determined, by the storyline and his very characterisation. The Force is presented as a mystical, complex, and vastly powerful thing, full of possibilities and no other work conflicts or has any real contradictory bearing on the nature of the Force and wounds in the Force etc as far as its explored in KotOR 2.

Rather than gaining his power through normal means, Nihilus gains it through his unique status of being a wound in the Force. His power is essentially inexorably linked to both his characterisation, and the plot/central idea of the story. It doesn't conflict with other canon works, and rather than being a product (to any extent) of the medium, is the full product of the story.

Luke's later showings are also fine. The son of The Chosen One, a being who's strength in the Force was off the charts, far outshone his contemporaries, and who had a truly special and unique relationship with the Force: an omnipresent, vastly powerful energy source. As the movie exposits, the likelihood is that Anakin's considerable connection with the Force would have been passed on down to his children, and given the sheer experience Luke now has under his belt it wouldn't be crazy to assume that he would have already realised a huge portion of his potential. I don't think his greater showings are unrealistic at all; I'd imagine it's the same kind of stuff we would have seen from a full potential Anakin.

Sidious's showings on the other hand occur not much later after the movies where he's established as being nowhere near as powerful as he's depicted in DE, with little to no adequate explanation given to his vast rise in power. Take into account the fact that the entire story basically contradicts George Lucas's idea of the Chosen One in the first place and I think we can safely rule out Sidious's showings from the SW canon (and the entire story for that matter).


See, all someone has to say is "I disagree" to your above argument, and your argument is shot. You cannot prove it. I don't happen to disagree, but I'm almost tempted to say so just to make my point.

I disagree.

I er, con-cour.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
The Force is presented as a mystical, complex, and vastly powerful thing, full of possibilities and no other work conflicts or has any real contradictory bearing on the nature of the Force and wounds in the Force etc as far as its explored in KotOR 2.

Rather than gaining his power through normal means, Nihilus gains it through his unique status of being a wound in the Force.

In fact the Savage Opress episode is going to show us that the Force can manifest itself in many different forms that the jedi do not use. The Dathomir witches sorcery being the example of that.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Luke's later showings are also fine. The son of The Chosen One, a being who's strength in the Force was off the charts, far outshone his contemporaries, and who had a truly special and unique relationship with the Force:

Indeed. We know as a fact that full potential Anakin would have been far beyond anyone we saw in the PT or OT. Luke is the closest thing we will ever see to a full potential Anakin.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Sidious's showings on the other hand occur not much later after the movies where he's established as being nowhere near as powerful as he's depicted in DE, with little to no adequate explanation given to his vast rise in power.

In fact Lucas has himself stated the Emporer never gets cloned! Dark Empire was just a kids story written before the PT and therefore before the prophecy of the chosen one who destroys the Sith was revealed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I er, con-cour.

With my disagreement?

I-i've forgotten what concour means...

Originally posted by truejedi
See, all someone has to say is "I disagree" to your above argument, and your argument is shot. You cannot prove it. I don't happen to disagree, but I'm almost tempted to say so just to make my point.

I think someone would have to establish how my reasoning wouldn't be the most valid usage on a case by case basis rather than simply saying that they disagree for it to be invalid.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The Dathomir witches sorcery being the example of that.

That'll be pretty cool I was always a fan of the Witches of Dathomir and their esoteric use of the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I-i've forgotten what concour means...

I forgot what I disagreed with.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Sidious's showings on the other hand occur not much later after the movies where he's established as being nowhere near as powerful as he's depicted in DE, with little to no adequate explanation given to his vast rise in power. Take into account the fact that the entire story basically contradicts George Lucas's idea of the Chosen One in the first place and I think we can safely rule out Sidious's showings from the SW canon (and the entire story for that matter).

Who are you to decide what is Canon and what is not. Everything Sidious has done in DE is Canon. It was stated that he became more powerful after being reborn. Anakin did bring balance to the Force by destroying the actual Palpatine.

Exactly , and if DE is canon, then Chee is wrong. And I'm fine with that. Chee can bite me. (no, really, he can.)

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Who are you to decide what is Canon and what is not.


You do realise Lucas has said thats not his Vision of post ROTJ right?? That the Emporer never gets cloned.

You can try and make the prophecy fit into Dark Empire, but the fact is the writers of Dark Empire didnt have a clue about the prophecy when writing that.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You do realise Lucas has said thats not his Vision of post ROTJ right?? That the Emporer never gets cloned.

Can you give a quote?
btw I would be happy if DE was non-canon, concept of reborn Palpatine sucked.

Another noteworthy exchange between Lucas and an interviewer appeared in the May 2008 edition of Total Film magazine:

TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"
LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"
TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You do realise Lucas has said thats not his Vision of post ROTJ right?? That the Emporer never gets cloned.

You can try and make the prophecy fit into Dark Empire, but the fact is the writers of Dark Empire didnt have a clue about the prophecy when writing that.

Officially, those comics are Canon. It's not just completely what "he would have done", meaning it's not G-Canon.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Who are you to decide what is Canon and what is not. Everything Sidious has done in DE is Canon. It was stated that he became more powerful after being reborn. Anakin did bring balance to the Force by destroying the actual Palpatine.

Think not so much about who it is saying it but mroe about what they're saying. I've provided perfectly sound reasonign as to why exactly it shouldn't be considered canon. If you disagree with the reasoning, provide some of your own. Sidious stating that he became more powerful isn't a reasonable explanation for his astronomical rise in power. And George Lucas makes it quite clear that bringing balance to the Force means destroying the Sith, permanently. That Palpatine was inhabiting a different body doesn't make him any less of a Dark Lord of the Sith, as it isn't his physical form that defines him as a Sith, but who he is, i.e. his mind and spirit (memories, past experiences, actions, intentions etc.).

Originally posted by axel_jovan
Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."

Thats the quote i was thinking of which of course explains why there is contradiction between the Prophecy of the Chosen one, and DE bringing the Emporer back.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
That Palpatine was inhabiting a different body doesn't make him any less of a Dark Lord of the Sith, as it isn't his physical form that defines him as a Sith, but who he is, i.e. his mind and spirit (memories, past experiences, actions, intentions etc.).

Exactly, according to DE he didnt actually die. Doesnt matter if his flesh was destroyed. If he transfers his conciousness to a new body then he's still alive.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thats the quote i was thinking of which of course explains why there is contradiction between the Prophecy of the Chosen one, and DE bringing the Emporer back.

^ Yeah, contradiction is apparent, but by this token whole post-RotJ EU is useless. For instance:
"Luke doesn't get married" So no hottie Mara Jade, no Ben.....
though maybe he still bangs her and has a kid

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Officially, those comics are Canon. It's not just completely what "he would have done", meaning it's not G-Canon.

Ah but where C-Canon contradicts G-Canon its nullified and no longer canon. And since the whole story of DE contradicts the Prophecy of the Chosen One by keeping the Emporer alive, then I think we can officially question whether that whole story is canon.

Especially when Lucas agrees the Emporer shuldnt be cloned.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
^ Yeah, contradiction ios apparnet but by this token whole post-RotJ EU is useless. For instance:
"Luke doesn't get married" So no hottie Mara Jade, no Ben.....
though maybe he still bangs her and has a kid

Yeah thatd make Luke a lot cooler But you know that nerd would rather fall in love and get married! Lol

Neway back to the canonicity, its not how Lucas would have done it, but since Lucas is never going to make Sequel movies, he will never be overwriting it either.

But thing about DE, which makes it different to Luke marrying Mara is:

1) It Contradicts the Prophecy of the Chosen One, so directly contradicts G-Canon.
2) Sidious's power directly contradict what he was capable of in the G-Canon movie, which would make the Leeland Chee comment apply. And like NcRotCA points out theres no good reason given for the power upgrade.
3) On top of the 2 points above we also know Lucas isnt a fan of the idea of Sidious being cloned.


Whilst Luke marrying Mara doesnt seem to be a direct contradiction to G-Canon, except the fact that traditionally Jedi did not marry. However the trditional Jedi way failed miserably, which Yoda notes in the ROTS novel. So the marriage thing is plausible for the new order.

If Lucas were to ever make stories after ROTJ he might allow the Mara thing, but you know theres no way he'd accept the Sidious clone thing!

Originally posted by axel_jovan
See, the problem is I am not 100% sure what Lucas IS saying,
is he saying that:
A) He let others write the EU and now that he sees the stories do not fit his vision he discards them (unlikely IMO).
or
B) He let others write the EU and though he says he would have done it in other way, he let it stand as it is.


EDIT: I think I may be splitting hairs, but f*ck, Lucas is inconsistent.

Exactly, if Lucas didn't want the stories then he shouldn't even let it be sold in the first place. He officially approved them so they are Canon.

We've all been bitching about the Prophecy being pointless for many years. But us bitching about it doesn't change a thing.

You seem to be under the impression that the natural position is that DE remains an accurate depiction of the Star Wars Universe, when Leland Chee has told us that the only necessarily true reflection of Star Wars is the movies, despite whether the work has been officially licensed or not, or whether its of canon status. If you wish to argue that DE is a fully accurate reflection of Star wars, you will need to provide reasoning beyond the simple observation that it's a C-Canon work, and that it has the official SW name attached to it.



Beings of intelligence and basic competence that can use common sense to determine how likely it is that a given work fits into the true representation of Star Wars?



I wasn;t actually referring to the movie's potrayal of the prophecy but Lucas's. George Lucas has confirmed the verity of the prophecy, and stated quite clearly that it refers to one thing, and one thing only: the complete, permanent destruction of the Sith. The entire DE story completely contradicts that notion. It is not a true reflection of the Star Wars canon. Period.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I wasn;t actually referring to the movie's potrayal of the prophecy but Lucas's. George Lucas has confirmed the verity of the prophecy, and stated quite clearly that it refers to one thing, and one thing only: the complete, permanent destruction of the Sith. The entire DE story completely contradicts that notion. It is not a true reflection of the Star Wars canon. Period. Except canon is only considered "non canon" when it contradicts Lucas' Universe, not only his word. In fact, in his interview he specifically said "In my universe], there is no cloned Emperor."

It's never been stated anywhere that DE isn't canon within the Expanded Universe itself, only when compared to Lucas' universe.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
You seem to be under the impression that the natural position is that DE remains an accurate depiction of the Star Wars Universe, when Leland Chee has told us that the only necessarily true reflection of Star Wars is the movies, despite whether the work has been officially licensed or not, or whether its of canon status.

That seriously affects your whole series of claims as they relate to Darth Bane and Traya's (as you would interpet them) insane Force powers, seeing as how they are not a reflection of what we see in the SW movies, right?

I'm not referring to George Lucas's vague seperation of the two worlds, but the statements made by leland Chee and Chris Cherasi specifically regarding the overall SW canon, including the movies and EU. As they've both stated, the further you branch away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation comes into play, and that the movies are the only fully accurate reflection of the state of events in the fictional reality.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'm not referring to George Lucas's vague seperation of the two worlds, but the statements made by leland Chee and Chris Cherasi specifically regarding the overall SW canon, including the movies and EU. As they've both stated, the further you branch away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation comes into play, and that the movies are the only fully accurate reflection of the state of events in the fictional reality. Oh I agree. That's why I feel that all of KOTOR is non canon and shouldn't be used in discussions. And, since it's all wildly specutlative, meaning it's aaaalllllllll relative, then you can't prove me wrong!

Yay speculation and analysis!

Either DE or kotor are canon, or neither are, but then we shouldn't discuss anything outside of the movie universe.

Firstly, let's clarify what exactly it is we see in the movies, ok? It is not the full limit or extent to which the Force can be used by anyone. It is, when you factor in the displays of effort where there are some, a tangent to the full limit or extent to which the Force can be used by the same individuals displayed in the movies. That is why, when the stuff that we see in the EU from those same individuals is so inconsistent with what we see in the movies, that the fact that we know that the EU isn't a necessarily true reflection of Star Wars becomes so damning.

Bane is not featured in the movies. He is featured in a book that is not weighed down by the need to thrills readers with dazzling imagerey and displays of action. A book that faces no technical limitations in relaying the intent of the creators into the presentation of the work. A book that's possessive of no special components that would lend to the exagerration of the work. The very story itself, from the background story and basic lore and mythology of the setting, to the present state of the story, to behind the scenes and the intentions of those adding to the Star Wars mythos, introduced the concept of the Sith'ari to us: a Sith equivalent to the Jedi's Chosen One, a being with a unique and highly significant role in the history of the Galaxy and the state of the Force, and a being who was supposed to possess power and strength and a destiny vastly greater than those around him; so great that they were described to be perfect. Bane is that special being. A being who was supposed to stand out vastly from the crowd around him. A being who wasn't supposed to sit anywhere near the norm. Taking that into account, there's absoltuely no reason we would have to look at his story or what he demonstrates as unrealistic or inconsistent with what we see in the movies.

As far as we will accept at least some degree of the Exanded Universe as an accurate reflection of the setting, every reason suggests that we accept Bane as a character and his demonstrations of power.

Traya I will address in the other thread.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Oh I agree. That's why I feel that all of KOTOR is non canon and shouldn't be used in discussions. And, since it's all wildly specutlative, meaning it's aaaalllllllll relative, then you can't prove me wrong!

Yay speculation and analysis!

You see to be under the impression that this is a subjective process when it isn't. Saying that you can disregard one source and accept another isn;t the same thing as applying reasoning as to why we should accept/disregard different sources.

If it doesn't directly contradict a higher form of canon or a more recent work of equivalent canonical status, isn't completely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon or the majority of works of equivalent canonical status, and the limitations and functions of the medium do not override the story that is being told, the background of the story, or what we know from behind the scenes of what's intended for the story when presenting the story, we treat the work as a fully accurate reflection of the fictional world of Star Wars, for all intents and purposes.

Until anybody is able to explain how this isn't the most logical method of revising canon that we can apply, you will have to accept it.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Exactly, if Lucas didn't want the stories then he shouldn't even let it be sold in the first place. He officially approved them so they are Canon.

We've all been bitching about the Prophecy being pointless for many years. But us bitching about it doesn't change a thing.

I agree. Besides, no one even knows the full story on what "bringing balance to the force" really means yet. It hasn't been fully interpreted for us. All we know is that the dark side is the imbalance. But we do not know if "bringing balance" means no more dark side ever again. And if so, then that means no new sith order (Krayt's order), no Lumiya, no Caedus, or no Exar Kun coming back as a spirit to haunt the new jedi order.

DE is still c-canon. There is no point in arguing over it. And if the comic was such a huge contradiction then it would be rendered non-canon, but it hasn't yet.

So Palpatine's force storm is still unbeatable.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
That seriously affects your whole series of claims as they relate to Darth Bane and Traya's (as you would interpet them) insane Force powers, seeing as how they are not a reflection of what we see in the SW movies, right?

I dnt knw about Traya, but Lucas created Bane and his back story. So I would guess he would have given the authors of the Bane books some kind of idea of how powerful he is. Im guessing.

And to be fair that story is the basis of the Sith cult/religion the movies are all about.

Still going on with this shit...


You people are all queers.

Originally posted by NCRotCA


I wasn;t actually referring to the movie's potrayal of the prophecy but Lucas's. George Lucas has confirmed the verity of the prophecy, and stated quite clearly that it refers to one thing, and one thing only: the complete, permanent destruction of the Sith. The entire DE story completely contradicts that notion. It is not a true reflection of the Star Wars canon. Period.

if this is true, than everything after ROTS is non-canon, and that's not even worth discussing. No one is going to accept such a claim.

KOTOR is obviously non-canon. As is Bane... I mean, being able to manipulate the force at a SUB-ATOMIC level?!?!?! that's freaking exaggerated shit right there, or nothing is!!! SUB-ATOMIC. OMIGAWD.

Don't forget riding through space on a pterodactyl....

"Space-Terrosaur, terrorize!"

is rex really never coming back to kill Neb? Because that means Neb wins in the end.

I think in his heart, Rex is still in love with the Shire knew he always would. There's just no defeating someone that determined to impress their useless presence on people.

plus rex apparently only loved Gideon... we are all saying bad words and everything.. Order has given way to chaos.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
If it doesn't directly contradict a higher form of canon or a more recent work of equivalent canonical status, isn't completely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon or the majority of works of equivalent canonical status, and the limitations and functions of the medium do not override the story that is being told, the background of the story, or what we know from behind the scenes of what's intended for the story when presenting the story, we treat the work as a fully accurate reflection of the fictional world of Star Wars, for all intents and purposes.

Until anybody is able to explain how this isn't the most logical method of revising canon that we can apply, you will have to accept it.


This. Seriously, this has been our rule for years and this is what it should remain.

Also,



This is a pretty good argument to render DE non-canon. I hate to ride Nebs coattails, especially now that he's once again been slain, but I thinkhe may have you beat on this one.

Originally posted by truejedi
if this is true, than everything after ROTS is non-canon, and that's not even worth discussing. No one is going to accept such a claim.

No just DE

Originally posted by truejedi
KOTOR is obviously non-canon. As is Bane... I mean, being able to manipulate the force at a SUB-ATOMIC level?!?!?! that's freaking exaggerated shit right there, or nothing is!!! SUB-ATOMIC. OMIGAWD.

I wuldnt call manipulating the Force on a sub atomic level exaggerated considering we were told in ROTS that Darh Plageus could manipulate midichlorins to create life.

Bane cant be non-canon. His character and back story were created by Lucas.

Originally posted by Nephthys


This is a pretty good argument to render DE non-canon. I hate to ride Nebs coattails, especially now that he's once again been slain, but I thinkhe may have you beat on this one.

Actually its a terrible argument here DS. Think about it. If the reason DE is non canon is because the prophecy failed to bring about the complete destruction of the sith, then Legacy is non-canon. (Sith) FOTJ is non-canon (Sith) Lumiya is non canon (Sith) Caedus is non-canon (Sith).

I'm seriously confused as to why you thought that was a good argument. Can you explain?

Originally posted by truejedi
Actually its a terrible argument here DS. Think about it. If the reason DE is non canon is because the prophecy failed to bring about the complete destruction of the sith, then Legacy is non-canon. (Sith) FOTJ is non-canon (Sith) Lumiya is non canon (Sith) Caedus is non-canon (Sith).

I'm seriously confused as to why you thought that was a good argument. Can you explain?

A Sith revivalism is one thing. Saying that Anakin never destroyed Sidious is just ridiculous.

If Vader didnt destroy Bane's Sith Order which had been ongoing since the time of Bane, then what exactly did the chosen one do in the prophecy??

Originally posted by Nephthys
I hate to ride Nebs coattails, especially now that he's once again been slain,

Slain for what? For being a Bane fan?? Thats ridiculous!

He's a sock.

and he declared personal war or something against me in the SWVF. It was kinda weird... I think maybe I finally said something that hurt. 6 years of trolling, and I'M the one that finally gets through to him?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
A Sith revivalism is one thing. Saying that Anakin never destroyed Sidious is just ridiculous.

If Vader didnt destroy Bane's Sith Order which had been ongoing since the time of Bane, then what exactly did the chosen one do in the prophecy??

It is ridiculous, I agree, but we can hardly declare it non-canon. Star Wars takes care of its own ret-conning. I have been saying it, and Legacy should both be ret-conned for a long time, but it doesn't make it happen. Besides, the One Sith were still alive when Sidious "died" so Anakin never destroyed the sith anyway.

We can't choose where to draw that line. Its up to star wars, and they chose not to so far. I'm not going to pull a Gideon and start disregarding things I don't think make sense, or this place turns into a screaming match.

Originally posted by truejedi
Actually its a terrible argument here DS. Think about it. If the reason DE is non canon is because the prophecy failed to bring about the complete destruction of the sith, then Legacy is non-canon. (Sith) FOTJ is non-canon (Sith) Lumiya is non canon (Sith) Caedus is non-canon (Sith).

I'm seriously confused as to why you thought that was a good argument. Can you explain?

GL's word is law. There is no getting around that fact. If he's said that the prophecy to destroy the Sith has been completed then it has, end of discussion.

So are you seriously trying to ret-con all of the above? No Legacy, No Caedus, Lumiya, No One Sith. No LOTF. No Fotj? Is that seriously your claim, 2 days after you spent all this time saying "screw chee, it all stays canon?"

not to mention the Tribe... nobody destroyed them either. And Ship, who was a sith..

Honestly, you started this shit about things being non canon. We (or at least I did) offered to just ignore it but you've brought it up again and again. Now you have to sleep in the bed you've made.

I did not. Blax did. I was mocking the quote for awhile, but that's about all.

Originally posted by truejedi
So are you seriously trying to ret-con all of the above? No Legacy, No Caedus, Lumiya, No One Sith. No LOTF. No Fotj? Is that seriously your claim, 2 days after you spent all this time saying "screw chee, it all stays canon?"

Chee is one thing, but Lucas' word is law. Besides, Lumiya and Caedus weren't actual sith anyway imo. They'd stay.

they were declared Sith by out of Universive omnipotent narrators. There is no getting around that.

Originally posted by truejedi
Besides, the One Sith were still alive when Sidious "died" so Anakin never destroyed the sith anyway.


The One being Anakin?? He destroyed himself as well, and in any case had already turned back to the light side before he destroyed Sidious.

This is what Kevin J Anderson has wrote in the prologue of my Dark Empire back from the 90's:

"When you read Dark Empire, or any of the other novels, remember that although Lucasfilm has approved them, these ARE OUR SEQUELS, NOT George Lucas's. If Lucasfilm ever make films that take place after Return of the Jedi, they will be George Lucas's own creations, probably with no connection to anything we have written."

Now sequels were never made since then, but prequels were, which gave us the prophecy of the chosen one destroying the sith, completely ignoring Dark Empire, and rendering it non-canon as far as im concerned.

The above quote also shows there was no level of canonicity at all when Dark Empire was written.

Originally posted by truejedi
they were declared Sith by out of Universive omnipotent narrators. There is no getting around that.

Bane's Order can be destroyed, but the dark side will always be there, so it is probably inevitable, that there will always be dark jedi intrigued by and trying to revive sith teachings, who will call themselves sith.

Whether they in fact are sith is something else, and doesnt really matter. But Vader destroyed Bane's Sith Order which had been ongoing for a thousand years.

By ROTJ for the first time in thousands of years there were no Sith, they were destroyed by the chosen one, thus fulfilling the prophecy.
Whereas if we believe DE then Sidious's concious was merely transferred to a clone body when Vader threw him into the reactor, in which case the Sith were never destroyed rendering the Prophecy non-canon.

Id rather take DE as non-canon than Lucas's main prophecy for the entire sage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Bane's Order can be destroyed, but the dark side will always be there, so it is probably inevitable, that there will always be dark jedi intrigued by and trying to revive sith teachings, who will call themselves sith. Lucas would not agree with you here. According to him, the dark side is like a cancer in the force and is what causes the imbalance. The sith bring imbalance because of their heavy use of the dark side. They do not cause the imbalance because they are Bane's order.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whether they in fact are sith is something else, and doesnt really matter. But Vader destroyed Bane's Sith Order which had been ongoing for a thousand years. What? (lol)

So you mean to tell me that Krayt nearly bringing the galaxy under his heels is no big deal because he was not apart of Bane's order? He was no threat to peace because Because Bane did not recognize him as a true sith?

Lucas never said being apart of Bane's order is what causes the imbalance. He said the dark side is the imbalance, and the sith are dark side users so they cause the imbalance.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
By ROTJ for the first time in thousands of years there were no Sith, they were destroyed by the chosen one, thus fulfilling the prophecy.There were sith though.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Whereas if we believe DE then Sidious's concious was merely transferred to a clone body when Vader threw him into the reactor, in which case the Sith were never destroyed rendering the Prophecy non-canon. Whereas if we believe anything after ROTJ, it would render the prophecy non-canon. Or so it would seem. We don't know enough about the prophecy yet

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Id rather take DE as non-canon than Lucas's main prophecy for the entire sage. You're wanting us to turn c-canon material into non-canon?

Sorry, but we do not have that authority. Only Chee and Lucas have that authority. So far DE is still considered c-canon. You guys can continue to argue about it, but you won't get far.

And if we go strictly by Lucas' vision then we would have to ignore ALL eu material that take place after the movies. Lucas said that Vader's sacrafice would restore peace to the galaxy. But as far as the EU is concerned, this never happens.

Lucas is basically telling us that as far as he is concerned, he does not care about the EU. His main focus his about Vader's story, which is his story (his universe). But for fan-sake, he allows other authors to write EU material, and then hires others to fit it into canon and keep track of it for us. But he is also letting us know that if he were the one to make a sequel, it would be different then what other authors write. But as far as he is concerned his story is over.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The One being Anakin?? He destroyed himself as well, and in any case had already turned back to the light side before he destroyed Sidious.

What? no, the One Sith Order on Korriban. (Krayt's order...)

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Bane's Order can be destroyed, but the dark side will always be there, so it is probably inevitable, that there will always be dark jedi intrigued by and trying to revive sith teachings, who will call themselves sith.

Whether they in fact are sith is something else, and doesnt really matter. But Vader destroyed Bane's Sith Order which had been ongoing for a thousand years.



I actually LIKE this. It makes for a cool reason for the prophecy. But in all honesty, I don't think its enough to rule things that are canon, noncanon, just because it would be cool. Maul not getting cut in half like a loser would be cool too, but its still canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lucas would not agree with you here. According to him, the dark side is like a cancer in the force and is what causes the imbalance. The sith bring imbalance because of their heavy use of the dark side. They do not cause the imbalance because they are Bane's order.

I wasnt even taking about bringing balance to the Force. I was talking about destroying the Sith part of the Prophecy, which isnt as obscure as the "Bringing Balance" part of the prophecy, but its quite clear cut what that part means. According to DE he never destroyed the Sith.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So you mean to tell me that Krayt nearly bringing the galaxy under his heels is no big deal because he was not apart of Bane's order? He was no threat to peace because Because Bane did not recognize him as a true sith?

Thats not even close to what I mean. If he destroyed Sidious then at least he destroyed the sith in his time, and for the first time in thousands of years there were no sith! he destroyed not only the most powerful sith in history, but that whole cult which had been in hiding and ongoing for 1000 years! Thats something! What DE is saying is HE DESTROYED NOTHING, because he never even killed Sidious!!



Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Whereas if we believe anything after ROTJ, it would render the prophecy non-canon. Or so it would seem. We don't know enough about the prophecy yet

We know it says Anakin destroys the Sith! LOL! According to you and DE thats not true. I think il believe the prophecy over you or DE.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're wanting us to turn c-canon material into non-canon?

And your wanting to make C-Canon just as canon as G-Canon. You have no respect for the levels of canonicity, so it is a wonder you even use the letters C, G before Canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sorry, but we do not have that authority. Only Chee and Lucas have that authority.

And wasnt it Lucas who said that Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by killing the sith, and that the emporer never gets cloned?? Urmm yes it was.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So far DE is still considered c-canon. You guys can continue to argue about it, but you won't get far.

A C-canon which has been nullified by a G-Canon source. I think its you guys who need to stop treating any previous piece of canon no matter how weak as the gospel of the SWU. Its only Lucas's words and the G-Canon stuff that is the gospel for all the SWU.

Look it was a C- Canon source before ROTS that claimed Ki-Adi-Mundi was the first Knight(not master) on the council. That was nullified by ROTS when we learned Anakin was THE FIRST KNIGHT on the council. So answer this question, is that C-Canon source of Mundi's Jedi Status on the Council still Canon??


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But he is also letting us know that if he were the one to make a sequel, it would be different then what other authors write. But as far as he is concerned his story is over.

Like with the prequels and the new animation Lucas takes what he likes from the EU, and ignores/contradicts what he likes.
That means when it clearly contradicts his stuff its rendered non-canon. When it doesnt its fine to consider it canon, if it wasnt he wuldnt occasionaly steal stuff from the EU, like names, characters e.t.c.
End of the day Lucas and all G-Canon source is the Gospel and Source material for all of the EU. Its time you accepted and respected that.

Originally posted by truejedi
What? no, the One Sith Order on Korriban. (Krayt's order...)

Right I just read about Darth Krayt, and I officially have nothing left to say. That not only contradicts the prophecy but also the rule of two!

But The only palusible explanation would still be that the prophecy refers to Bane's order which lead to the most powerful sith of all time taking control of the galaxy. But that still requires rendering DE non canon.

Otherwise the EU is just all a big contradiction to the movies, and not even worth paying attention to.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Right I just read about Darth Krayt, and I officially have nothing left to say. That not only contradicts the prophecy but also the rule of two!

But The only palusible explanation would still be that the prophecy refers to Bane's order which lead to the most powerful sith of all time taking control of the galaxy. But that still requires rendering DE non canon.

Otherwise the EU is just all a big contradiction to the movies, and not even worth paying attention to. You're trying to interpret the prophecy for us. (lol)

see, we don't know what "bring balance to the force" meant. We really don't. We thought it meant destroy the Sith, but that isn't stated.

Originally posted by truejedi
see, we don't know what "bring balance to the force" meant. We really don't. We thought it meant destroy the Sith, but that isn't stated.
Well it does make sense though, so we are going to make DP's explanation of the prophecy g-canon. As of today DE is no longer c-canon, it's officially non-canon.

That was easy.

There's a very easy way to solve the problem of the prophecy, Chee's calling the movie the "official" showing of the Force, etc.:



That all fall's in to "Lucas' Star Wars", where the EU doesn't exist.

I made that point awhile ago. People are allergic to logic though.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And your wanting to make C-Canon just as canon as G-Canon. You have no respect for the levels of canonicity, so it is a wonder you even use the letters C, G before Canon.


This above all else makes you look completely like an idiot. No one is saying that DE should be G-Canon. Just that it's Canon. If you really want to be picky you should realize that not even all "Sith" (dark siders) were destroyed at the end of RotJ. Now what is the definition of Sith? Is it ones that call themselves Sith because then like said before, Caedus and company should be ignored from Star Wars as well.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You're trying to interpret the prophecy for us. (lol)

No whats funny is your just completely ignoring it. Anakin destroying the sith was part of the prophecy. And its quite obvious that at the very least means at least killing the sith lord who had taken over the galaxy. Which according to DE he didnt do.

Originally posted by truejedi
see, we don't know what "bring balance to the force" meant. We really don't. We thought it meant destroy the Sith, but that isn't stated.

We know part of the prophecy was destroying the sith. theres nothing to debate on that one.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Well it does make sense though, so we are going to make DP's explanation of the prophecy g-canon. As of today DE is no longer c-canon, it's officially non-canon.

That was easy.

Actually DE's not been canon since the prequels revealed the prophecy to us.

Look DE was made before the prequels, and Lucas has ignored the Palpatine not being destroyed thing! Lucas's word is law here. What do you not understand? Its not my interpretation you need to accept, but Lucas's words.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Actually DE's not been canon since the prequels revealed the prophecy to us.

Look DE was made before the prequels, and Lucas has ignored the Palpatine not being destroyed thing! Lucas's word is law here. What do you not understand? Its not my interpretation you need to accept, but Lucas's words. You do realize that via Lucas' own mouth, he says that this "other" Star Wars that is the EU is not "his" Star Wars. So why is there even an EU? Lucas himself as already declared everything except the movies, script, novels, and television shows non-canon.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This above all else makes you look completely like an idiot.

OH PLEAAAASEEE!! Im the one discussing canonicity with a bunch of monkeys here.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
No one is saying that DE should be G-Canon. Just that it's Canon.

So what exactly do the G's and C's mean to you?? Why do you even use those letters if everything is just plain canon to you?
Im gna ask you the question now which Sidious66 has refused to answer since your such a smart ass..

Ki-Adi-Mundi was stated in C-canon material to be the first Knight(not Master) appointed to the council. In ROTS we find out it was Anakin who was the first Knight appointed, so is that fact about Mundi being the first Canon or Not??! Since according to you everything is Canon regardless.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
If you really want to be picky you should realize that not even all "Sith" (dark siders) were destroyed at the end of RotJ. Now what is the definition of Sith? Is it ones that call themselves Sith because then like said before, Caedus and company should be ignored from Star Wars as well.

Sith are a cult. Anakin was to destory them in the prophecy. The prophecy could have just refferred to Bane's uber powerful cult which took over the Galaxy. However accordign to you DE is canon, no questions, therefore Anakin never destroyed any sith.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You do realize that via Lucas' own mouth, he says that this "other" Star Wars that is the EU is not "his" Star Wars. So why is there even an EU? Lucas himself as already declared everything except the movies, script, novels, and television shows non-canon.

Yes iv already mentioned the "2 universes" how he refers to them.

But he also borrows stuff from the EU, as he likes, so doesnt completely ignore it.

And the main point is that even from the EU's perspective, Lucas's world is the source material for all of it. So when there is a blatant contradiction, we take the G-Canon stuff as fact, and ignore the C-Canon version.

Like Maul and Ventress being from the same planet. Thats canon now, despite what Eu sources might have previously stated.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
OH PLEAAAASEEE!! Im the one discussing canonicity with a bunch of monkeys here.

You can't even use the edit button, monkey.



DE is C-Canon, it belongs to the Star Wars franchise and doesn't contradict the other material that was produced. So it belongs to Canon.



Are you dense? This is an in-universe contradiction in the story of Star Wars. There is nothing in the story that states Sidious' soul (not body) should be destroyed to fulfill the prophecy. Even if it would be so, we have no proof that Anakin is the Chosen One because of the vague description he was given in the prophecy which as I said before is questionable in itself.



Is it stated by an omnious narrator that Anakin was the one in the prophecy? How do you know that the Prophecy is about Bane's cult?

Can someone actually please give me the Prophecy word by word?

Interview with George Lucas from a documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition:

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.
There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...
Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.
And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..
Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

This ^ says A LOT!! The post RotJ novels/storylines kind of defeat the purpose by allowing Sidious to reemerge not long after. This IS a contradiction to what we have with G-canon and related material.

Only DP knows the details of the prophecy. All these years fans have been wanting an explanation of what the prophecy is, and DP knew all about it.

I wonder why Chee went out of his way to explain, that in DE, Palpatine was lying about Vader's sacrafice not being his first death. Why would Chee even care, if the entire DE comics is a lie anyway? Please explain this for us DP. Why does Chee consider DE to be c-canon when it is really non-canon?

As for the Ki-Adi-Mundi question, I do not see how Anakin's word (fallible in-universe source) can over-ride an omniscient narrator. The complete visual dictionary said Mundi was the first non-master to be on the council.

Maybe DP is being picky. He only ignores certain levels of canon that he decides.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Interview with George Lucas from a documentary for the VHS version A New Hope, Special Edition:

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.
There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...
Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.
And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..
Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

This ^ says A LOT!! The post RotJ novels/storylines kind of defeat the purpose by allowing Sidious to reemerge not long after. This IS a contradiction to what we have with G-canon and related material.

It seems like it would defeat the purpose by allowing any EU stories period. According to the EU, evil was never gotten rid of. This is where the EU becomes the parallel universe to Lucas' universe.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You can't even use the edit button, monkey.

Oh God a monkey whose an obsessive computer geek!



Originally posted by Slash_KMC
DE is C-Canon, it belongs to the Star Wars franchise and doesn't contradict the other material that was produced. So it belongs to Canon.

And so the difference to you between G and C canon is????

And urm yeah it contradicts the movies, which are the source of the eu, so its canonicity must at the very least be questioned.


Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Are you dense?

Your really asking for insults arnt ya?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
This is an in-universe contradiction in the story of Star Wars.

Mr. "Il call u dense but cant answer a simple question" is it canon or not that Mundi was the first knight on the council?? Il give u a clue.. G-Canon source says its false, whilst C-canon source says its true. See if monkey intellect can work that one out?

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
There is nothing in the story that states Sidious' soul (not body) should be destroyed to fulfill the prophecy.

Il give you credit here for trying to give an explanation. But destroying a sith's physical body, only to have his concious go straight into a clone body, is not really destroying anything. Luke destroyed that first clone body? Right so? Ur making the prophecy mean absolute jack due to your ignorance.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Even if it would be so, we have no proof that Anakin is the Chosen One because of the vague description he was given in the prophecy which as I said before is questionable in itself.

HAHAHA! Do you even knw jack about Star Wars?! Anakin's not the chosen one??! LOL LOL


Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Is it stated by an omnious narrator that Anakin was the one in the prophecy? How do you know that the Prophecy is about Bane's cult?


Urmm... Its stated by a guy called George Lucas..

as for the Bane cult, I was being kind to all the post ROTJ EU stuff, and saying it could have been JUST that. We know that is the cult Anakin destroyed.

I'll has 2 l's in it btw.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
This ^ says A LOT!! The post RotJ novels/storylines kind of defeat the purpose by allowing Sidious to reemerge not long after. This IS a contradiction to what we have with G-canon and related material.

Well I think this does do away with most the post ROTJ stuff, to which Lucas himself has never input anything.

Although im not sure we should take the "getting rid of evil" bit too literally. I mean there will obviously always be evil. But he clearly got rid of a very dangerous and powerful evil.

Also the sith he was supposed to destroy could have just been Bane's cult. Im not saying I know the prophecy Sidious66 before you start getting smart again, just that would be the only way of bringing it in line with the Eu. Not that it needs to, as G-Canon is the source material, and it is the Eu that has the responsibility of bringing its stories in line with G-Canon quotes.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It seems like it would defeat the purpose by allowing any EU stories period. According to the EU, evil was never gotten rid of. This is where the EU becomes the parallel universe to Lucas' universe.

Well it may defeat the purpose of any post ROTJ Eu material.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well I think this does do away with most the post ROTJ stuff, to which Lucas himself has never input anything.

Although im not sure we should take the "getting rid of evil" bit too literally. I mean there will obviously always be evil. But he clearly got rid of a very dangerous and powerful evil.

Also the sith he was supposed to destroy could have just been Bane's cult. Im not saying I know the prophecy Sidious66 before you start getting smart again, just that would be the only way of bringing it in line with the Eu. Not that it needs to, as G-Canon is the source material, and it is the Eu that has the responsibility of bringing its stories in line with G-Canon quotes.

Do you see what you are doing here? You are taking it upon yourself to interpret the prophecy. Your explanation might make sense, but we do not know enough about the prophecy to try and interpret it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Only DP knows the details of the prophecy. All these years fans have been wanting an explanation of what the prophecy is, and DP knew all about it.

Yeah what does George Lucas or Obi-Wan Kenobi(ROTS) know about the prophecy?! Lol!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I wonder why Chee went out of his way to explain, that in DE, Palpatine was lying about Vader's sacrafice not being his first death. Why would Chee even care, if the entire DE comics is a lie anyway? Please explain this for us DP. Why does Chee consider DE to be c-canon when it is really non-canon?

Well smart ass instead of getting all sarcastic with me that would have been a good point to bring up earlier.
Show me the quote, and then we can talk. But bear in mind no one, including Chee, overrules Lucas when it comes to Star Wars.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As for the Ki-Adi-Mundi question, I do not see how Anakin's word (fallible in-universe source) can over-ride an omniscient narrator. The complete visual dictionary said Mundi was the first non-master to be on the council.

HAHAHA! Please tell me thats not a serious argument?! Ki-Adi-Mundi was right there when he said it?? That was Anakin's biggest complaint, did you see anyone correct him there to calm him down.
Di you see Mundi say "urmm Anakin I was a Kinght when I was appointed" Later Kenobi calms him down, saying something like "Calm down, its a great honour to be appointed to the council at your age" nothing about, "Oh and Mundi was appointed a Knight as well!!!!"

That fact in the visual dictionary has been redered non-canon there by a G-Canon source! Thats what im trying to explain, but you guys have got a very 2 dimensional way thinking. Either canon or not. No levels, no contradictions. If there are it doesnt matter.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maybe DP is being picky. He only ignores certain levels of canon that he decides.

Noooo, I ignore C-Canon where it contradicts G-Canon. Seriously im talking to a brick wall with u sidious66.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Do you see what you are doing here? You are taking it upon yourself to interpret the prophecy. Your explanation might make sense, but we do not know enough about the prophecy to try and interpret it.

The prophecy says he destroys the sith. Theres nothing to interpret there. DE said he didnt do that. Lucas says he did. Lucas>DE

For how long did the Prophecy say they would be destroyed?

DP is correct. Once again, from the mouth of George Lucas:

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.
There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...
Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.
And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..
Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

And Sidious66 - There is ZERO doubt as to the identity of the Choosen One - IT'S ANAKIN!!

It doesn't seem to. So I think we can get around it by saying that its only temperary, but it means the the True Sith, DE and maybe Krayt might have to be thrown down the pooper.

Also: Someone ask Gideon what his opinion is. He's always on the ball about canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'll has 2 l's in it btw.

Funny! Especially seeing as how you MISPELLED temporary.

Don't even compare that shit bro. I'll is kindergarden level. My 2 yr old lover can spell I'll. And he's retarded and kept drugged most of the time.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The prophecy says he destroys the sith. Theres nothing to interpret there. DE said he didnt do that. Lucas says he did. Lucas>DE
Lucas also says Luke never got married and his world is different from the EU.

Originally posted by ares834
Lucas also says Luke never got married and his world is different from the EU.
No worries. DP will make sense of it all.

Also:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/palpatine/

Notice how the EU is separated from the movies (Lucas' universe)? And also, notice how DE story is still fitted in the EU continuety.

Quit taking it upon yourself to interpret the prophecy and deciding what you believe should be canon or not, DP. You're making a fool of yourself to keep on like this. Lucas never said only Bane's order must be destroyed. He said the end of the sith and the evil in the universe.

@Jinsoku Takai:

Please do not put words in my mouth.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@Jinsoku Takai:

Please do not put words in my mouth.

You're right SIDIOUS 66 - That (the quote about not knowing who the Chosen One is) actually came from Slash KMC. Apologies!

@Slash KMC - There is ZERO doubt as to the identity of the Chosen One - IT'S ANAKIN!!

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't even compare that shit bro.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."


Evil? Huh. Well I guess all of Star Wars post Return of the Jedi is non canon, then, since... every antagonist ever conceived has been "evil". If by killing Sideous and the Empire Anakin single handily destroyed everyone who wasn't a "good person" in the Galaxy... the entire galaxy... then any story in which there was a "bad guy" is now non canon.

Including Exar Kun, I guess.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Evil? Huh. Well I guess all of Star Wars post Return of the Jedi is non canon, then, since... every antagonist ever conceived has been "evil". If by killing Sideous and the Empire Anakin single handily destroyed everyone who wasn't a "good person" in the Galaxy... the entire galaxy... then any story in which there was a "bad guy" is now non canon.

Including Exar Kun, I guess.

Kind of the point of this entire debate... so... yeah. And Exar Kun is pre-RotJ (waaaaaaaaaaaaay pre RotJ), so not sure what he has to do with this.

Well, there's more, if you want to expand the canon debate. I just pointed this out in the other thread, for Darth Power and Nebaris' convenience.



KOTOR is not canon, all post RotJ EU is not canon. Wow...

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Well, there's more, if you want to expand the canon debate. I just pointed this out in the other thread, for Darth Power and Nebaris' convenience.



KOTOR is not canon, all post RotJ EU is not canon. Wow...

Fine with me. ***k KotOR a n d all post RotJ material. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all.

I'd be HUGELY interested in a sequel trilogy to the original SW trilogy - as I'm sure most everyone would be as well.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
@Slash KMC - There is ZERO doubt as to the identity of the Chosen One - IT'S ANAKIN!!

Perhaps DP can't prove it, but can you prove it while using in-universe sources?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh God a monkey whose an obsessive computer geek!

Whatever kid.



No, it doesn't contradict the movies, but we'll get to it right now. G-Canon is George Lucas his universe, the novels, tv-show and the movies. C-Canon is everything else with the Star Wars license and that not does contradict the novels, tv-show or the movies.



Whatever kid.



Maybe you should learn how to read. It's not canon because, I'll quote myself: "This is an in-universe contradiction in the story of Star Wars."



You see, everything after the movies is canon unless proven to be a contradiction. Now prove that the prophecy refers to Sidious soul being destroyed.



I asked for an in-universe quote, meaning a quote in the story. Yet you haven't given that. If we take every word spoken by George Lucas as C-Canon as well, than we have nothing after RotJ, because there would be no evil left. Now if you can give me proof from the actual franchise and not from an interview that the Prophecy refers to Anakin destroying Sidious' soul, then DE would be non-canon.

So unless you give me some in-universe vast proof of DE contradicting the movies, then I'll counter your George Lucas said with: "fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."
This would mean that every evil entity after the movies would not be able to exist, so nothing after RotJ is Canon, right?

Also, can you please use correct grammar and spelling, it's not very difficult.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Fine with me. ***k KotOR a n d all post RotJ material. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all.

I'd be HUGELY interested in a sequel trilogy to the original SW trilogy - as I'm sure most everyone would be as well.

That'd be a sequel without evil whatsoever because Lucas said that all evil got rid from the universe. We'd probably have a wedding though.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Evil? Huh. Well I guess all of Star Wars post Return of the Jedi is non canon, then, since... every antagonist ever conceived has been "evil". If by killing Sideous and the Empire Anakin single handily destroyed everyone who wasn't a "good person" in the Galaxy... the entire galaxy... then any story in which there was a "bad guy" is now non canon.

Including Exar Kun, I guess.

Well according to Lucas there is no story after Episode 6 so yes, you are correct.

theory: DP is Gideon.

I'm still not positive it won't be LUKE who will turn out to be the chosen one and bring balance to the force.

DP is your argument thus:

1. Anakin is the chosen one. (Fair assumption)

2. The chosen one is to bring balance to the force. (granted, that's the prophecy)

3. "Bringing balance to the force" Means destroying the Sith? (The Jedi THOUGHT it meant that, but the Republic Jedi were wrong about a GREAT MANY things.)

It is a good THEORY but unprovable.

Please give us the source of the interpretation of the prophecy, because when I watched the movie, all I got was the JEDI'S interpretation of it. Sidious obviously didn't agree it meant that Anakin was going to destroy the sith, or he wouldn't have chosen him as an apprentice.

@ Slash KMC and truejedi

Why is there ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER as to the identity of the Chosen One? George Lucas said that Anakin is the Chosen One on the RotS DVD commentary and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgBpoiC8qGA ***k people!!

All well and good. For how long did Lucas say that the Prophecy would remain fulfilled?

And it's already been established by Lucas that bringing balance to the Force involves doing away with the Sith (i.e. destroying them). Nothing else except Lucas' word matters regarding this so called debate.

Doing away with the Sith means just that; putting an end to the Sith. Makes ZERO sense to place so much importance on this prophecy only to have the Sith reborn in short order.

Originally posted by truejedi
I'm still not positive it won't be LUKE who will turn out to be the chosen one and bring balance to the force.

DP is your argument thus:

1. Anakin is the chosen one. (Fair assumption)

2. The chosen one is to bring balance to the force. (granted, that's the prophecy)

3. "Bringing balance to the force" Means destroying the Sith? (The Jedi THOUGHT it meant that, but the Republic Jedi were wrong about a GREAT MANY things.)

It is a good THEORY but unprovable.

Please give us the source of the interpretation of the prophecy, because when I watched the movie, all I got was the JEDI'S interpretation of it. Sidious obviously didn't agree it meant that Anakin was going to destroy the sith, or he wouldn't have chosen him as an apprentice.

1. Not an assumption - George Lucas said it.

2. Correct.

3. They were not wrong about this - George Lucas said so. Read the quote fom earlier.

Quit trying to argue with what the creator of SW said. That's ***king ridiculous!!

now on the cover of DE, if I am correct, it says "The Sith have returned." or something like that.

So...... Anakin destroyed the Sith, fulfilling the prophecy, making Lucas happy.

AND THEN...


Sidious came back.

There is no contradiction that I can see.

Short-lived prophecy is all.

Then the ENTIRE prophecy is ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS if the Sith just reemerge again in a relatively short time. Hmmm, gee, which makes more sense? The post RotJ material is non-canon, or everything that George Lucas created and tied in with the prophecy of the Chosen One was an absolute waste of time. I'd go with the latter, NOT the former.

Exactly, we have always said the prophecy was pointless and poor writing. Finally you see why.

You are trying to say the entire EU is pointless. What's the difference? Either way something is going to be pointless.

we have always said that the Sith continuing to resurface (latest on Korriban..) was stupid and made the prophecy pointless.

But didn't make it non-canon.

Like jar-jar: Stupid and pointless, but definitly canon.

The destruction of the sith means just that - they are destroyed.