Capital Wasteland Brotherhood of Steel vs NCR

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Darkstorm Zero
Suppose the Capital Wasteland at the End of Broken Steel is returning to the west coast and has settled for a time in an area bordering the Mojave Wasteland and NCR at the end of a NCR Victory New Vegas Ending (Or Yes Man Ending if that's too much of an NCR Wank) First Contact between the two goes poorly for whatever reason and soon the two are at war, who wins?

This is an army vs army battle (Still within the rules if I interpret it right).

Snafu the Great
If the NCR is still recovering from the war with the Legion, The Brotherhood could stomp nuts, especially with the weapons and armor pilfered from the Enclave.

Darkstorm Zero
No, I'd say both as full strength if applicable (I mean, NCR are known to be utterly pittiful with on high having shitty resource management during peacetime, or even prior to known conflicts - such as their utter inneptitude to properly set up against a known Legion onslaught during the beginning of the game. However, they are known for being ruthless during annexation and nationalisation missions)

However, you are right, since this is after all the DLC and vanilla FO3, the ECBOS do have access to some remarkable amounts of fresh Enclave tech and facilities from Adams Airforce Base, The Satelite Relay Station, and whatever they could scavange from Raven Rock. This would include capured vertibirds for instance, plus a possible restoration of the mobile base crawler. Then there's the very real possibility of using that gear to restore Liberty Prime very quickly.

Also, their relations with the common wastlanders and recruitment pools would be massive thanks to post Project Purity relations... Mix this with the idden Valley detachment's sheer access to T-51B armors and Gauss rifles, and you've got a sufficiently deadly BOS force right there, and thats not including the potential for Outcast reintegration. If you include this, then thats all the tech the Outcasts have scaved, and the VSS base tech as well (Operation Anchorage).

Snafu the Great
Also, the Brotherhood mostly use energy weapons, whereas the NCR still use traditional firearms. Second, as you pointed out, they have Prime backing them up, as well as the Vertibirds. If Prime was repaired in time and sent back to fight The Bear, the NCR would surrender in droves.

Darkstorm Zero
My main concerns though is that the NCR would still heavily outnumber the BOS even with all that enhancement.

A secondary concern woul be the potential of activating the ARCHIMEDES II at HELIOS One. If they activate that, Prime could require rebuilding once again, if he isn't melted down by the beam altogether.

Snafu the Great
Also gotta take in the account that the satelite has to be in perfect orbit to be effective. That and look who you got trying to make the damn thing work: a chem addicted scientist and his FoA sidekick. By the time Archimedes is in position to take down Prime (so long as he is not nowhere near Helios One), the BoS's trump card could have done its damage. What makes Lyons different from his Mojave counterpart is that he is more than willing to use the tech to attack. But...Should Lyons deploy Prime at Hoover Dam, then the NCR can't risk firing the weapon, which means they lose the dam.

Darkstorm Zero
Ah yes, 'Fantastic" is horribly inept... However, if the Courier has sided with the NCR (As per the OP) thats different. However, both sides have their hero (Lone Wanderer and the Courier respectively...)

Your right though, I do beleive the sheer material superiority that Lyons brings to the BOS in this area would be irrefutable in just about every way, barring something equally as massive. The only side I could think of besides the Enclave that would have something that could take down Prime would be if the Boomers somehow got that bomber off the ground.

Snafu the Great
Unless the Boomers have a orbital strike handy, carpet boming Prime would probably be ineffective. It DID take a volley of orbital nukes to turn Prime into scrap.

Darkstorm Zero
I don't think those where nukes dude. At least not on the calibur of Megaton's bomb. So I'd have to assume you mean Mini-nukes.

That said, actual nukes like the one in Megaton would have to be carried by bombers like the Lady of the Lake, since they arn't missile mounted warheads.

Snafu the Great
I'll conceede that point to you. The missiles used on the Bradley-Hercules aren't nuclear, but they are verified as destructive warheads. Took 4 of them just to drop Prime. Archimedes will just turn Prime into molten slag.

Darkstorm Zero
Yeah, but it is a MASSIVE "If" Mr. Fantastic could actually pull a win out of his crack and get the thing online.

NemeBro
The NCR in an incredible stomp.

The NCR's resources outstrip those of the entire Capital Wasteland many times over. And the NCR's manpower makes the Capital Wasteland look like an absolute joke.

Keep in mind that the Brotherhood does not recruit just any random ****head, the Brotherhood would still have less members than the West Coast branch... That the NCR steamrolled in a day.

What took out Liberty Prime was not really that impressive, to be honest. Archimedes would be overkill.

Keep in mind, not only does the NCR have Vertibirds, but they have had them longer than the Brotherhood.

Oh, and there is the fact that the Enclave, which the Brotherhood needed Liberty Prime to combat, was but a mere remnant that fled from the NCR.

Even IF the NCR cannot destroy Liberty Prime, which is the only issue, what they CAN do is directly attack the Pentagon base while Liberty Prime is not there and take control of it from them. The only reason Liberty Prime works is because it has been set to see Enclave personnel as communists. Changing that should not be hard. Or they could just shut it down.

Manpower and resources give the NCR a fairly easy win. The Capital Wasteland Brotherhood is only just out of fighting a losing battle. The NCR is one of the largest and most powerful post-war civilizations in the US, with only Caesar's Legion and Mr. House being viable threats.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
The NCR in an incredible stomp.

Oppinion et al. wink

Originally posted by NemeBro
The NCR's resources outstrip those of the entire Capital Wasteland many times over. And the NCR's manpower makes the Capital Wasteland look like an absolute joke.

Not really.

5 years of developing captured EC Enclave tech, not to mention all the other goodies the Lone Wanderer provides Lyons (Zeta Tech anyone?) Sorry but the sheer technological edge far outstrips NCR by an unbeleivable factor here.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Keep in mind that the Brotherhood does not recruit just any random ****head, the Brotherhood would still have less members than the West Coast branch... That the NCR steamrolled in a day.

Prove it.

Broken Hills BoS had been falling apart before the war with NCR, and their xenophobic isolationism worked pretty hard against them. Lyons is far more flexible. and on top of this, the BoS have got many times the experience that the Hidden Valley chapter has.

Originally posted by NemeBro
What took out Liberty Prime was not really that impressive, to be honest. Archimedes would be overkill.

As stated earlier in this thread, NCR will NEVER get the ARCHIMEDES II working bcause they have a chem addicted retard and a Follower saboteur working on it, and to be frank, nothing else even came close to scratching Prime's paint, not even Vertibird gat lasers and mini-nukes, which is about as high end as NCR firepower gets.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Keep in mind, not only does the NCR have Vertibirds, but they have had them longer than the Brotherhood.

Which makes not one bit of difference since Vertibirds are the least of the NCR's problems, post Broken Steel and other DLC. We're talking possible base crawler restoration and Zeta level stuff.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh, and there is the fact that the Enclave, which the Brotherhood needed Liberty Prime to combat, was but a mere remnant that fled from the NCR.

After Prime was defeated, the BoS came up with an effective counter to Vertibird incursion in his absence, namely the Tesla Cannons.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Even IF the NCR cannot destroy Liberty Prime, which is the only issue, what they CAN do is directly attack the Pentagon base while Liberty Prime is not there and take control of it from them. The only reason Liberty Prime works is because it has been set to see Enclave personnel as communists. Changing that should not be hard. Or they could just shut it down.

How on Earth can they lay seige to the Citadel, when they had trouble knocking House out?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Manpower and resources give the NCR a fairly easy win. The Capital Wasteland Brotherhood is only just out of fighting a losing battle. The NCR is one of the largest and most powerful post-war civilizations in the US, with only Caesar's Legion and Mr. House being viable threats.

Your speaking and forgetting the 20 years Lyons held off the vault 87 mutants, or the resurgent 30 years more advanced Enclave and winning.

Then in the same breath you cound House as being a threat to the NCR despite his extremely limited operating theater and only a few hundred Securitrons at his best play...

I mean damn dude, anyone equiped with anything Zeta upgraded is going to b a combat monster... mix that with captured Enclave gear and your more powerful than Brock Samson....

Snafu the Great
Continuing from my thread...

The NCR's forces are already stretched to the limit, both from defending the dam and from countless attacks from the Legion, Fiends and the local wildlife of the Mojave (as seen with a corpse of a NCR trooper in Bloodborne Cave). Cass, Boone and even Hanlon verified this claim.

The NCR may have the numerical advantage, but the CW BoS has the tech and the weaponry to destroy The Bear.

TacDavey
The NCR wasn't doing a very good job of fighting Caesar's Legion when it was threatening to attack and overwhelm them. I see no reason to think they would suddenly get battle savvy once the Brotherhood of Steel arrived. I mean, they were having trouble with a group of people that primarily used machetes and spears. Only the higher level goons actually used guns.

No we have a group of power armed techies with technology than can wipe out whole squads of Enclave like it was nothing, and cannons that can take out Vertibirds with one shot.

The NCR's most powerful advantage would be the Archimedes. But that doesn't get operational unless the Courier fixes it. That scientist dude does NOT do it on his own. It was said the courier sided with the NCR, but that doesn't necessarily mean he/she fixed Archimedes. The starter of this thread should decide some of the actions the courier took through the game, Archimedes being the most notable.

Even with it, though, I don't see the NCR pulling a victory out of this one.

Snafu the Great
The NCR's advantage is also it's major weakness. Archemides can only be fired once every 24 hours. aside from that, they need the targeting device in order to make it effective.

Darkstorm Zero
Well, the NCR was never made aware of ARCHIMEDES II, NCR wants the power directed to the Strip and McCarran, the choices are this, even spread, even spread overloaded, Freeside and Westside, (With Gannon) or activating ARCHIMEDES II. Now, since NCR does not know about the super weapon, I would say either Strip and McCarran get the power, or even spread it since those options make this a moot point.

TacDavey
Yeah, I'd give it to the Brother hood of Steel.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oppinion et al. wink


Not really.

5 years of developing captured EC Enclave tech, not to mention all the other goodies the Lone Wanderer provides Lyons (Zeta Tech anyone?) Sorry but the sheer technological edge far outstrips NCR by an unbeleivable factor here.


Prove it.

Broken Hills BoS had been falling apart before the war with NCR, and their xenophobic isolationism worked pretty hard against them. Lyons is far more flexible. and on top of this, the BoS have got many times the experience that the Hidden Valley chapter has.


As stated earlier in this thread, NCR will NEVER get the ARCHIMEDES II working bcause they have a chem addicted retard and a Follower saboteur working on it, and to be frank, nothing else even came close to scratching Prime's paint, not even Vertibird gat lasers and mini-nukes, which is about as high end as NCR firepower gets.


Which makes not one bit of difference since Vertibirds are the least of the NCR's problems, post Broken Steel and other DLC. We're talking possible base crawler restoration and Zeta level stuff.


After Prime was defeated, the BoS came up with an effective counter to Vertibird incursion in his absence, namely the Tesla Cannons.


How on Earth can they lay seige to the Citadel, when they had trouble knocking House out?


Your speaking and forgetting the 20 years Lyons held off the vault 87 mutants, or the resurgent 30 years more advanced Enclave and winning.

Then in the same breath you cound House as being a threat to the NCR despite his extremely limited operating theater and only a few hundred Securitrons at his best play...

I mean damn dude, anyone equiped with anything Zeta upgraded is going to b a combat monster... mix that with captured Enclave gear and your more powerful than Brock Samson.... 1. Not so much an opinion as it is a reasonable assumption. :3

2. I'm sorry, did you just give the Brotherhood Zeta tech? Even though that is not actually an option in the game? I just checked, there is no quest, not even unmarked to give Owens any ****ing Zeta tech. In other words, in canon, they do not have it. And if you do give them Zeta tech, then clearly you are only so aware of the fact that the Brotherhood does not have a chance in a canon or fair fight. smile Other than that, of course the Brotherhood has a technological advantage, never denied that. But this advantage does nothing to change the fact that the NCR's outnumbers the Brotherhood a million to one. This is an entire nation's army, versus an army small enough to fit in the Pentagon. Wow. Then of course there is the fact that the NCR has more resources to draw from than the entire Capital Wasteland.

3. More experience fighting Super Mutants. The West Coast has much more experience with the NCR, and was still outmatched. I will not bother arguing which chapter of the Brotherhood has more members, since it is largely irrelevant. The NCR has a far greater amount of citizens they can recruit from to serve in the military, on top of just having a far larger military.

4. ONLY GUESS WHAT IT'S ACTUALLY NOT. The NCR has C4 which it used to destroy Boulder City, which was in fact actually a city back before the Battle at Hoover Dam, when the NCR defeated the Legion. So yes, the NCR does in fact have the resources to destroy Prime. As for Archimedes, while they do not actually need it, since they could just re-enact Boulder City for that, you act as though Mister Fantastic will always be the douchenozzle who will be working on it. And you also ignore that Mister Fantastic does, in fact, know how to get it to work. He just needed the Courier to do it for him.

5. Stop with the Mothership Zeta shit. The Brotherhood does not have access to that technology. As for the Base Crawler... You mean the one they blew the **** up? no expression Yeah stop giving the Brotherhood technology they do not actually have. It's getting sad dude.

6. The Tesla Cannon was never shown to be mass produced by the East Coast, there are like 12 or so in the game. And is not a big deal on the east. Since if the NCR really wanted them... They could buy them. no expression From the Van Graffs. Who they now do business with. Shit, for that matter, the Hidden Valley Brotherhood has Tesla Cannons as well. Really helped them out, huh?

7. It's almost like you think comparing House to the Brotherhood is clever. Ignoring the fact that House has a veritable army in the form of the Three Families, backed up by superior technology, Securitrons who are in fact the shit, and really House just being House. This is the man who saved Las Vegas by shooting nuclear missiles down with lasers. no expression Do not act like the Brotherhood and Mr. House are anyway near equals. Oh, and despite this, House admits that, at the start, he could not sustain an open war with the NCR, Caesar's Legion being the current threat took their heat off of him. By the end of House's questline, he has thousands of Securitrons, is presumably making more, and each one is more durable than Power Armour. Each one is armed with a Gatling Laser, an SMG, and after upgrading, a missile launcher, a rapid-fire grenade launcher, and can repair itself in the middle of battle. Mr. House is the most competent man in the entire Wasteland, even before the war he was a genius that made shit like the Vaults possible. Do not compare him to the Brotherhood.

8. What? Are you saying that the Lyons held off the Enclave and was winning for 20 years? Are you high or something? Not sure what you are talking about. Because from how I read your post, what I am getting is that Lyons has apparently been Eldar since the age of 25. no expression Can you rephrase that?

9. A few hundred. Wow. He has many patrolling the streets of New Vegas, and many more in storage to replace them. Not even counting the army that he has under the Legion's camp. And please stop comparing Mr. House to the Brotherhood.

10. They do not have Zeta equipment. :3 Oh and keep in mind Enclave Gear is not so cool in the Wasteland. I mean, really, the Van Graffs sell all the armaments the Enclave used. no expression

Originally posted by Snafu the Great
Continuing from my thread...

The NCR's forces are already stretched to the limit, both from defending the dam and from countless attacks from the Legion, Fiends and the local wildlife of the Mojave (as seen with a corpse of a NCR trooper in Bloodborne Cave). Cass, Boone and even Hanlon verified this claim.

The NCR may have the numerical advantage, but the CW BoS has the tech and the weaponry to destroy The Bear. And yet the NCR still has far more than enough men to wage war with the Brotherhood. Which would be much easier than doing so with the Legion, since the Legion is the only army post-war who outmatches the NCR's in size.

Oh and this reminds me, is Boone part of the NCR? 131 Since you know, Boone is generally considered to be the shit, and for good reason. He makes the snipers in the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood look like... Well shit. Give him an Anti-Material Rifle and watch the Power Armour crumble.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
The NCR wasn't doing a very good job of fighting Caesar's Legion when it was threatening to attack and overwhelm them. I see no reason to think they would suddenly get battle savvy once the Brotherhood of Steel arrived. I mean, they were having trouble with a group of people that primarily used machetes and spears. Only the higher level goons actually used guns.

No we have a group of power armed techies with technology than can wipe out whole squads of Enclave like it was nothing, and cannons that can take out Vertibirds with one shot.

The NCR's most powerful advantage would be the Archimedes. But that doesn't get operational unless the Courier fixes it. That scientist dude does NOT do it on his own. It was said the courier sided with the NCR, but that doesn't necessarily mean he/she fixed Archimedes. The starter of this thread should decide some of the actions the courier took through the game, Archimedes being the most notable.

Even with it, though, I don't see the NCR pulling a victory out of this one. 1. Yeah man, I guess that is why they decidedly beat the shit out of the Legion during the Battle of Hoover Dam, the first one. Wow they suck dude, getting their asses beat by the Legion and shit. no expression Not to mention... The Legion is huge. Gigantic. All of Arizona is their territory, and their "recruitment" policy gives them much higher men to arm with machetes to take on the NCR. Now, admittedly, the Legion would have a harder time with the Brotherhood than the NCR would, because while those weapons are kewl for killing NCR Troopers, Power Armour is much harder to pierce. But still, you need to take into account the sheer superhuman physical qualities of the Legion. Take a look at Centurion armor. It is scrapped from pieces of defeated enemies' own armour. Like Super Mutant armor. Or Brotherhood armour. :3 I am not just making this shit up, that is what Centurion Armor has. So obviously the Legion can fight the Brotherhood.

2. Wipe out squads of Enclave like it was nothing. With the exception of Liberty Prime, Brotherhood tech is not that advanced. And to be blunt, without Liberty Prime, the Enclave would have crushed the Brotherhood. Losing Liberty Prime was seen as a VERY BAD THING. It was only due to the Lone Wanderer, a certifiable BAMF, that they won.

3. Well said guy knew how to get Helios up and running. He just needed someone else to do the legwork. But it is irrelevant, Archimedes is largely unnecessary.

4. Yeah man, because vastly superior numbers backed by better recruiting, and much greater resources, is nothing in the face of the technological advantage that the NCr already has beaten. The ****ing West Coast Brotherhood has multiple members using Gauss Rifles. Yeah, but the East Coast is so hax. erm


Sorry about the double post, original post was too long.

Snafu the Great
Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh and this reminds me, is Boone part of the NCR? 131 Since you know, Boone is generally considered to be the shit, and for good reason. He makes the snipers in the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood look like... Well shit. Give him an Anti-Material Rifle and watch the Power Armour crumble.

Boone is a powerhouse in New Vegas, that I'll admit (rivaled to that of Veronica Santangelo). But when you start off with him, he's been through more shit that could rival Dom Santiago.

1. Participated in the Bitter Springs fiasco, in which he shot at women, children, old folks and wounded Khans. This was one of the driving forces for him leaving the NCR forces.

2. Tracked down and shot his wife, Carla Boone in a mercy killing after she was sold to the Legion.

Depending on the choices you make, Boone can re-enlist in the NCR at the game's end...and goes after the Legion in his off time.

As for snipers in the Capital Wasteland, the only one who is a serious threat is Arkansas in Minefield.

NemeBro
Araknsas is mostly a threat because... He is surrounded by a Minefield.

Boone is the shit indeed. If the Legion takes over, can take on the Legion alone.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Not so much an opinion as it is a reasonable assumption. :3

Reasonability is debatable

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. I'm sorry, did you just give the Brotherhood Zeta tech? Even though that is not actually an option in the game? I just checked, there is no quest, not even unmarked to give Owens any ****ing Zeta tech. In other words, in canon, they do not have it. And if you do give them Zeta tech, then clearly you are only so aware of the fact that the Brotherhood does not have a chance in a canon or fair fight. smile Other than that, of course the Brotherhood has a technological advantage, never denied that. But this advantage does nothing to change the fact that the NCR's outnumbers the Brotherhood a million to one. This is an entire nation's army, versus an army small enough to fit in the Pentagon. Wow. Then of course there is the fact that the NCR has more resources to draw from than the entire Capital Wasteland.

Neither is giving the Outcasts Gauss rifles, or the t-51b Power Armour, Oh wait, but you CAN give Casdin the Alien Blaster can't you? evil face

Listen well. The oan Wanderer is a part of Owen Lyons brotherhood, and he is also the captain of Zeta post that DLC. Now, this is set 5 years post Broken Steel, I dunno about you, but I'm pretty sure thats more than enough time to ingrain Zeta's tech, and frankly, we do not know what sort of effect this will have. Your relying too much on numbers, the NCR's major numbers advantage would be cut apart by the Brotherhoods superior firepower unless they start properly equipping teir numbers. and Lyons is nowhere near as tactically stupid as Elijah was, he's not going to hole up in an indefensible tower.

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. More experience fighting Super Mutants. The West Coast has much more experience with the NCR, and was still outmatched. I will not bother arguing which chapter of the Brotherhood has more members, since it is largely irrelevant. The NCR has a far greater amount of citizens they can recruit from to serve in the military, on top of just having a far larger military.

Again, superior numbers get cut to shit by any sound strategy and superior firepower

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. ONLY GUESS WHAT IT'S ACTUALLY NOT. The NCR has C4 which it used to destroy Boulder City, which was in fact actually a city back before the Battle at Hoover Dam, when the NCR defeated the Legion. So yes, the NCR does in fact have the resources to destroy Prime. As for Archimedes, while they do not actually need it, since they could just re-enact Boulder City for that, you act as though Mister Fantastic will always be the douchenozzle who will be working on it. And you also ignore that Mister Fantastic does, in fact, know how to get it to work. He just needed the Courier to do it for him.

And you expect that the NCR is going to somehow magically be able to breach the walls with C4 despite turrets on the walls and then expect it to penetrate where even fatmen cannot? righto...

Ahahahahaaa! C4 to destroy Prime! Oh my god..... You've just made my day Neme.... Thats the single most retarded thing I've ever read in a fallout debate.... Your talking about a bot that took fatmen, vertibird gattling lasers, and was designed to stop hordes of Chimera Tanks and Chinese Soldiers solo, and can do it from such a range as to make an elaborate chse and trap worthless?

Originally posted by NemeBro
5. Stop with the Mothership Zeta shit. The Brotherhood does not have access to that technology. As for the Base Crawler... You mean the one they blew the **** up? no expression Yeah stop giving the Brotherhood technology they do not actually have. It's getting sad dude.

Yeah, the base crawler that was mission killed, not ddisintegrated, not demolished, and was still intact after the Orbital Strike.

You seem to have a hard time accepting the fact that the Brotherhood, given 5 years may actually be able to do something with the tech they now have access to. Tech that for 200 years was out of their reach, tech that no other Brotherhood chapter has access to. and Owen has shown he is more than capable of bending and breaking the founding Axioms if he beleives it's for the greater good. He is the only one to recruit outside the brotherhood, and he is the only one to actually research and develop new tech. Hell man, he now has access to something that no other chapter has ever had, and it's also what makes the NCR so powerful. You wanna know what that is? Production capability.

Yes thats right ladies and gerbils. the CW BoS are actually able to produce their own gear now, they don't have to rely on scavving. They have Adams production facilities, they have access to the Pitt's steel mill thru the Wanderer, they have (yes I'm going to damn well say it) Zeta's production lines, AND they now have access to an unlimited supply of fresh water thanks to Project Purity. I'm sorry Neme, but in 5 years the CW BoS can actually build up quite a lot. The lure of fresh water will lure potential recruits from as far as the Pitt and Point Lookout, effectively making the draw pool potentially limitless.

Originally posted by NemeBro
6. The Tesla Cannon was never shown to be mass produced by the East Coast, there are like 12 or so in the game. And is not a big deal on the east. Since if the NCR really wanted them... They could buy them. no expression From the Van Graffs. Who they now do business with. Shit, for that matter, the Hidden Valley Brotherhood has Tesla Cannons as well. Really helped them out, huh?

The same NCR who barely can cover their frontlines with working Service Rifles and body armor? As for mass production, that gets solved by Adamns itself, and the Pitt. teh HV BoS had them? When? Never seen any BoS carry one in 3 games.

Originally posted by NemeBro
7. It's almost like you think comparing House to the Brotherhood is clever. Ignoring the fact that House has a veritable army in the form of the Three Families, backed up by superior technology, Securitrons who are in fact the shit, and really House just being House. This is the man who saved Las Vegas by shooting nuclear missiles down with lasers. no expression Do not act like the Brotherhood and Mr. House are anyway near equals. Oh, and despite this, House admits that, at the start, he could not sustain an open war with the NCR, Caesar's Legion being the current threat took their heat off of him. By the end of House's questline, he has thousands of Securitrons, is presumably making more, and each one is more durable than Power Armour. Each one is armed with a Gatling Laser, an SMG, and after upgrading, a missile launcher, a rapid-fire grenade launcher, and can repair itself in the middle of battle. Mr. House is the most competent man in the entire Wasteland, even before the war he was a genius that made shit like the Vaults possible. Do not compare him to the Brotherhood.

Neme, where did you pull that number of Securitrons from? Thousands? Please provide proof of this.... No seriously, the numbers under Fortification Hill where low hundreds at best, and he couldn't have more than a hundred on the Strip. Like I said, if you think that the NCR can take the Citadel, why didn't they just drop the Lucky 38 with a stack of C4? I mean, you beleived it would do the job on the Citadel right? Pfft!

House's operational range is so goddamn limited the NCR could literally roll over the top of New Vegas in a day if they tried, there's no way they can do the same to the CW Brotherhood. Too much ground, many more bodies, and the Brotherhood's use of tactics that Securitrons cannot emulate makes this comparative WAY more favourable. What your doing is comparing Owen to Ellijah, Owen is not maniacle, insane, or stupid, and he's not wasteful or thoughtless with the lives of his troops.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
8. What? Are you saying that the Lyons held off the Enclave and was winning for 20 years? Are you high or something? Not sure what you are talking about. Because from how I read your post, what I am getting is that Lyons has apparently been Eldar since the age of 25. no expression Can you rephrase that?

No, he held off the V87 Supermuties for 20 years, then went on to defeat the Enclave thats 30 years more advanced than their Navarro counterparts. How old do you think Owen is? Sarah is in her early 30s, and he was Head Paladin during the time of the Scourge of the Pitt, which occured before the Pentagon was found, settled and fortified.

Originally posted by NemeBro
9. A few hundred. Wow. He has many patrolling the streets of New Vegas, and many more in storage to replace them. Not even counting the army that he has under the Legion's camp. And please stop comparing Mr. House to the Brotherhood.

You made the comparative Neme, by saying House is a major threat to the NCR, despite the sheer audacity of that statebent, I'm debunking it due to several reasons. One, the Securitrons are nowhere near as numerous as you think, 2 House is entirely dependant on the Lucky 38 remaining active, and 3 even if you complete House's endgame, his range is limited to the Mojave, the NCR is CONSIDERABLY larger as are the Brotherhood in it's entirety and FAR more mobile.

Originally posted by NemeBro
10. They do not have Zeta equipment. :3 Oh and keep in mind Enclave Gear is not so cool in the Wasteland. I mean, really, the Van Graffs sell all the armaments the Enclave used. no expression

Which was all Scavved from Navarro which is 30 years outdated. Oh and Zeta can be applied. I added that this is post all DLC being completed, and 5 years post Broken Steel. Why wouldn't the Wanderer give his bestest buds access?

Originally posted by NemeBro
And yet the NCR still has far more than enough men to wage war with the Brotherhood. Which would be much easier than doing so with the Legion, since the Legion is the only army post-war who outmatches the NCR's in size.

And yet the only reason they got Helios one was due to Ellijah being a total moron, not because the Brotherhood where inept fighters. You won't get the same strategic incompetence from Lyons.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh and this reminds me, is Boone part of the NCR? 131 Since you know, Boone is generally considered to be the shit, and for good reason. He makes the snipers in the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood look like... Well shit. Give him an Anti-Material Rifle and watch the Power Armour crumble.

Perspective. Boon is the shit, but it's not like he can do anything but Snipe. The Pride rips him to peices. Hell, Gallows stealth kills him.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Yeah man, I guess that is why they decidedly beat the shit out of the Legion during the Battle of Hoover Dam, the first one. Wow they suck dude, getting their asses beat by the Legion and shit. no expression Not to mention... The Legion is huge. Gigantic. All of Arizona is their territory, and their "recruitment" policy gives them much higher men to arm with machetes to take on the NCR. Now, admittedly, the Legion would have a harder time with the Brotherhood than the NCR would, because while those weapons are kewl for killing NCR Troopers, Power Armour is much harder to pierce. But still, you need to take into account the sheer superhuman physical qualities of the Legion. Take a look at Centurion armor. It is scrapped from pieces of defeated enemies' own armour. Like Super Mutant armor. Or Brotherhood armour. :3 I am not just making this shit up, that is what Centurion Armor has. So obviously the Legion can fight the Brotherhood.

We have no way of knowing that. Hell, that could be scrap they tore off of NCR Heavy Troopers pilfered power armor, which is already made non powered because the NCR stole it off of dead Paladins and was already scrapped.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Wipe out squads of Enclave like it was nothing. With the exception of Liberty Prime, Brotherhood tech is not that advanced. And to be blunt, without Liberty Prime, the Enclave would have crushed the Brotherhood. Losing Liberty Prime was seen as a VERY BAD THING. It was only due to the Lone Wanderer, a certifiable BAMF, that they won.

The same could be said for the Courier frankly. I mean both camps had the shit stacked against them, then they get these knights in shining armor come along and solve ALL of their problems.

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Well said guy knew how to get Helios up and running. He just needed someone else to do the legwork. But it is irrelevant, Archimedes is largely unnecessary.

Please explain this. The NCR have nothing that can tackle Prime. I'm betting the the only ones to have a half shot at downing Prime are the Boomers, and even then it's iffy, the Boomers not having anything near the destructive capacity of the Bradley-Hercules satelite missiles.

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. Yeah man, because vastly superior numbers backed by better recruiting, and much greater resources, is nothing in the face of the technological advantage that the NCR already has beaten. The ****ing West Coast Brotherhood has multiple members using Gauss Rifles. Yeah, but the East Coast is so hax. erm

The Enclave never recovered from the loss of the Rig at the time, thats why Nevarro fell. Hell, it's not like those that went east knew Nevarro fell anyway (As proven by Ed-E's tapes from Whittley) Almost all of the Enclave's resources where shifted to Raven Rock and Adams AFB, where they had 30 years to produce APA MKII, Tesla MKII and Hellfire PAs, ALL of which are now securely in the hands of the ECBoS, and ALL of which are more advanced than T-51b and ALL of which the BoS can now make more of. This, combined with the numbers of potential recruits drawn from project purity and combined with Gunney's training FAR outshines anything in the NCR's 2 weeks of trooper training...

Don't even tell me that the Ranger training or 1st Recon training makes up the difference in this... your talking about a very small percentage of the total NCR Military machine there, and even fewer ever actually "Earn their black armor" = make it to vet status.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero


http://cdn2.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/048/800/original/1273266709545.jpg


There's just so much wrong going on here.


Liek, I wish I wasn't lazy and I had the time to argue and point out all your bullshit man haermm


Though will just go ahead and point out there are only retarded hill bullies in Point Lookout, so, yeah. Not a viable recruiting place.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
http://cdn2.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/048/800/original/1273266709545.jpg


There's just so much wrong going on here.


Liek, I wish I wasn't lazy and I had the time to argue and point out all your bullshit man haermm


Though will just go ahead and point out there are only retarded hill bullies in Point Lookout, so, yeah. Not a viable recruiting place.

Try me kid.

Only retarded hillbillies? Hmm. Mercs are there... Desmond is there... Blackhall... And I wasn't just reffering to Point Lookout, There are areas bitween Washington and Point Lookout dude.

So tell me, where's the bullshit now?

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Try me kid.

Only retarded hillbillies? Hmm. Mercs are there... Desmond is there... Blackhall... And I wasn't just reffering to Point Lookout, There are areas bitween Washington and Point Lookout dude.

So tell me, where's the bullshit now?


You don't even know how old I am mmm

Oh boy, a handful of mercs. Excellent. 5 moar guize will surely help. Desmond would likely not be willing to risk his ass like that, and-

wut?

Blackhall?

Are you shitting me? haermm

Yes, a ****ing old man is a viable option for recruitment haermm

You do realize that the BoS gives water out for, liek, free, right? And that most people in the Capital Wasteland are too chickenshit to actually risk their lives for no real reason other then heroism.

Would honestly take too long mmm. Though really, play through Fallout 3 again dood. You're saying shit like "OMG, T3h LONE WANDERER CAN REPLICATE ALIEN TECHNOLOGY!" when he has absolutely no ****ing idea how the alien technology works, nor does anyone else for that matter.

Or that the Outcasts will rejoin the Brotherhood. Even though the Brotherhood will continue, nay, increase in doing the very activities that made the Outcasts leave in the first place.

But waffles.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
You don't even know how old I am mmm

Do I care? Not at all

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Oh boy, a handful of mercs. Excellent. 5 moar guize will surely help. Desmond would likely not be willing to risk his ass like that, and-

wut?

Blackhall?

Are you shitting me? haermm

Yes, a ****ing old man is a viable option for recruitment haermm

The mercs respawn, it's not a one-off.

The others I rasied only to your knee-jerk post about there being "Only Hillbillies!" which was retarded.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
You do realize that the BoS gives water out for, liek, free, right? And that most people in the Capital Wasteland are too chickenshit to actually risk their lives for no real reason other then heroism.

you must have reading comprehension difficulties... I didn't say everyone in the CW would be instantly recruited. However, the prospects for drafting certainly increase due to the lure of Purity. The BoS's reputation is insurmountably improved, and with it, the prospect of new recruits. I could name quite a few outfits that would side with the BoS, including Rileys Rangers, Rivet City citizens and security, Perhaps leftover talons, Megaton Citizens...

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Would honestly take too long mmm. Though really, play through Fallout 3 again dood. You're saying shit like "OMG, T3h LONE WANDERER CAN REPLICATE ALIEN TECHNOLOGY!" when he has absolutely no ****ing idea how the alien technology works, nor does anyone else for that matter.

5 years man, 5 years and a whole bunch of sciency type Scribes backing him up, you would think that they won't do SOMETHING with it? GTFO!

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Or that the Outcasts will rejoin the Brotherhood. Even though the Brotherhood will continue, nay, increase in doing the very activities that made the Outcasts leave in the first place.

The problem was that (And yes, Casdin even says this) it's not yet time for them to start helping out Humanity directly, they need to gather more tech. Now, with that in mind, you think that post Broken Steel and Zeta tech would not be convincing? Yeah right.... Your officcially trying to pull excuses out your ass.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
5 years man, 5 years and a whole bunch of sciency type Scribes backing him up, you would think that they won't do SOMETHING with it? GTFO!

You, uh


Fail to ****ing comprehend that alien technology is far beyond anything mankind has ever created =|

Jesus Christ, when you grasp for straws, YOU GRASP FOR STRAWS!

And yeah, not getting into a debate with you, you and your utter lack of respect and general assclownish way of debating. Would prolly give me a brain tumor or something.

No, srsly, I recommend going back and doing another playthrough of Fallout 3 so that you know what the **** you are talking about erm


But waffles.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Fail to ****ing comprehend that alien technology is far beyond anything mankind has ever created =|

Jesus Christ, when you grasp for straws, YOU GRASP FOR STRAWS!

Hows about you actually get your facts right? considering A: 5 men, and only 2 of them with any form of mechanical experience, one a kid and one a friggin cowboy actually defeated a 2nd ship with the tech "They do not understand" in less than 24 hours.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
And yeah, not getting into a debate with you, you and your utter lack of respect and general assclownish way of debating. Would prolly give me a brain tumor or something.

No, srsly, I recommend going back and doing another playthrough of Fallout 3 so that you know what the **** you are talking about erm

Excuse you?! What the blazes are you talking about? You came in here saying I was spewing bullshit, yet the 2 points you raised have been shot to shit, and now you want to troll me? I have no lack of respect for those that show respect FA, You didn't, so until you do, you get none in return. That certainly doesn't mean I go out of my way to trash people. I've played FO3 and it's 4 DLCs plenty of times, I have no need to do it again based o your say so, especially since you offer no proof or even the most remote alternative theory. Hell, man, I could say the exact same thing.

Why don't YOU go play the game and learn something.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Neither is giving the Outcasts Gauss rifles, or the t-51b Power Armour, Oh wait, but you CAN give Casdin the Alien Blaster can't you? evil face

Listen well. The oan Wanderer is a part of Owen Lyons brotherhood, and he is also the captain of Zeta post that DLC. Now, this is set 5 years post Broken Steel, I dunno about you, but I'm pretty sure thats more than enough time to ingrain Zeta's tech, and frankly, we do not know what sort of effect this will have. Your relying too much on numbers, the NCR's major numbers advantage would be cut apart by the Brotherhoods superior firepower unless they start properly equipping teir numbers. and Lyons is nowhere near as tactically stupid as Elijah was, he's not going to hole up in an indefensible tower.


Again, superior numbers get cut to shit by any sound strategy and superior firepower


And you expect that the NCR is going to somehow magically be able to breach the walls with C4 despite turrets on the walls and then expect it to penetrate where even fatmen cannot? righto...

Ahahahahaaa! C4 to destroy Prime! Oh my god..... You've just made my day Neme.... Thats the single most retarded thing I've ever read in a fallout debate.... Your talking about a bot that took fatmen, vertibird gattling lasers, and was designed to stop hordes of Chimera Tanks and Chinese Soldiers solo, and can do it from such a range as to make an elaborate chse and trap worthless?


Yeah, the base crawler that was mission killed, not ddisintegrated, not demolished, and was still intact after the Orbital Strike.

You seem to have a hard time accepting the fact that the Brotherhood, given 5 years may actually be able to do something with the tech they now have access to. Tech that for 200 years was out of their reach, tech that no other Brotherhood chapter has access to. and Owen has shown he is more than capable of bending and breaking the founding Axioms if he beleives it's for the greater good. He is the only one to recruit outside the brotherhood, and he is the only one to actually research and develop new tech. Hell man, he now has access to something that no other chapter has ever had, and it's also what makes the NCR so powerful. You wanna know what that is? Production capability.

Yes thats right ladies and gerbils. the CW BoS are actually able to produce their own gear now, they don't have to rely on scavving. They have Adams production facilities, they have access to the Pitt's steel mill thru the Wanderer, they have (yes I'm going to damn well say it) Zeta's production lines, AND they now have access to an unlimited supply of fresh water thanks to Project Purity. I'm sorry Neme, but in 5 years the CW BoS can actually build up quite a lot. The lure of fresh water will lure potential recruits from as far as the Pitt and Point Lookout, effectively making the draw pool potentially limitless.


The same NCR who barely can cover their frontlines with working Service Rifles and body armor? As for mass production, that gets solved by Adamns itself, and the Pitt. teh HV BoS had them? When? Never seen any BoS carry one in 3 games.


Neme, where did you pull that number of Securitrons from? Thousands? Please provide proof of this.... No seriously, the numbers under Fortification Hill where low hundreds at best, and he couldn't have more than a hundred on the Strip. Like I said, if you think that the NCR can take the Citadel, why didn't they just drop the Lucky 38 with a stack of C4? I mean, you beleived it would do the job on the Citadel right? Pfft!

House's operational range is so goddamn limited the NCR could literally roll over the top of New Vegas in a day if they tried, there's no way they can do the same to the CW Brotherhood. Too much ground, many more bodies, and the Brotherhood's use of tactics that Securitrons cannot emulate makes this comparative WAY more favourable. What your doing is comparing Owen to Ellijah, Owen is not maniacle, insane, or stupid, and he's not wasteful or thoughtless with the lives of his troops. 1. I am not sure what you mean by "neither is..." And while you can give Casdin the Alien Blaster... Why would you? Not to mention that is irrelevant, since the Outcasts are not the Brotherhood, not anymore.

So in other words,"This never happened in canon but I like the Brotherhood of Steel oh so much that I really want them to win so am giving them an advantage they never had. sad" It's absolutely adorable how you think the Brotherhood have anywhere near the technical knowhow to actually get the Zeta weaponry working, let alone mass-produced. When they have never shown that kind of technical skill, the only man alive who may be able to figure out how that works is... You guessed it, Mr. House. Whose intelligence is so obviously far beyond anyone in the Brotherhood. Oh do not get me wrong, it would take multiple NCR troopers to kill single Brotherhood soldiers in open battle, but the NCR has the numbers. Lyons is a tactical genius huh? When? :3 Since the only tactical abilities I saw were "Have Liberty Prime **** shit up" and "I guess we make a distraction and send this one guy to do most of the work." The NCR has much more experience in war than Lyons does. And Elijah's in competence is not what led to the Brotherhood losing the battle, it only led to them losing more than they had to because they should have fled.

2. Only the NCR has demonstrated superior strategic capability, logistically is at a much greater advantage, and of course, has far superior numbers.

3. Breach the walls of that scrap of shit? And yes, they can, turrets can be destroyed, and the Fatman doing nothing IS A GAME MECHANIC. Going by that, a Fatman cannot destroy the average Outhouse. erm This shit is sad kid, go back to the playground.

Why yes, since the C4 as the NCR used it on Boulder City is in fact better than a Fatman, or the gatling lasers. smile The "orbital strike" was ****ing pathetic, get over it.

4. It was essentially demolished, actually. Any technology inside is destroyed, the thing blew up from the inside. You cannot get much from that.

I am not questioning his desire to build new technology. Only his ability.

Adams Air Force Base. I cannot actually recall a production line in it, other than what was destroyed by an orbital strike. And wow, kid, you have exceeded all expectations. You actually are giving them the Pitt and the Mothership Zeta production lines NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO USE? Holy shit, it's like if someone gave an Ethiopian schematics for the Large Hadron Collider and said "Build one." And giving them the Pitt? The Pitt that no matter what the Lone Wanderer does, does not belong to him? Now, I understand you liking the Brotherhood of Steel, but please stop giving them resources they, in fact, do not have, and get over it. :3 Oh, and before I forget, given the timeline you suggested, the NCR themselves have roughly a year to recover after defeating the Legion forever, which is more than enough time for the NCR. Project Purity is a joke. Considering the NCR has clean water EVERYWHERE, and food that is not irradiated. The Pitt? Either the Pitt ends up no longer needing slaves, cutting it off, or Wernher is dead and Ashur remains in control of the Pitt, and either way, they won't be joining the Brotherhood. As for Point Lookout... There are what? Five able-bodied non-mutant people in Point Lookout? Also, keep in mind... Aqua Pura... IS FREE. no expression Aqua Pura will not make everyone want to join the Brotherhood, stop pretending it will. Everyone in the Capital Wasteland is out for themselves. Why would they join the Brotherhood against the NCR? Particularly when life under the NCR consists of even MOAR free water for everyone, and clean food, and better shelter? And regardless, the Brotherhood does not forcibly draft recruits. The NCR does. Recruitment is but another thing the NCR beats the Brotherhood at.

NemeBro
5. Kind of like how not every Brotherhood member has a ****ing Tesla Cannon, right? Or why not everyone gets their own personal Vertibird? IT'S NOT COST EFFECTIVE. You seem to think the Brotherhood will pull the materials and power sources for all this shit from the Ether, when they cannot. Adams does not have this grand production capability, and get this through your head kid, the BoS does not own the Pitt. HV Brotherhood can SELL them to you. Why would they be carrying Tesla Cannons? They are in a cramped, fortified bunker and not expecting war with anythign that necessitates them. erm

6. No YOU provide proof of "A couple hundred." Mr. House's military is shown to be capable of standing up to the NCR and forcing them into a "treaty," to suggest he only has a few hundred is insane. He could not have more than a hundred at the Strip? I ask you: Why the **** not? House has been preparing for the war for years before it happened, he had the time, and definitely the resources, to do this. Shit, it is even strongly implied Mr. House has his own secret production lines, and has been known to take electronics and technology from the Wastes when it suits him, as he did with Vault 21. Hell, this is the same man who with an army of Securitrons enlisted the aid of the Three Families, and had New Vegas built in time before the NCR could get there. Mr. House is far and away the most competent individual in the entire world that we know of. And why did they not C4 the place? Mr. House was aware of the exact moment that NCR scouts entered the Mojave, and was able to disable a computer program uploaded in the Lucky 38 in a matter of seconds before it happened. The NCR doing that would incite a scuffle between New Vegas while they were already fighting the Legion. Now this may surprise you, but a war on two fronts is a bad thing.

Mr. House is "limited" to the Mojave in that he is content to stay there for the moment. Mr. House's entire plan is to rebuild civilization from New Vegas. And seriously? Have you actually played the ****ing game? Since in the Mr. House ending, Mr. House gains control of the entire Mojave, with the NCR unable to **** with his power. Kid, The Three Families are an army in their own right, and the Securitrons, along with being>>>Brotherhood troops to a man, is large enough. Plus Mr. House has ****ing laser cannons installed on the top of the 38. no expression Good luck getting to the Mojave by Vertibird if Mr. House does not want you there.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, he held off the V87 Supermuties for 20 years, then went on to defeat the Enclave thats 30 years more advanced than their Navarro counterparts. How old do you think Owen is? Sarah is in her early 30s, and he was Head Paladin during the time of the Scourge of the Pitt, which occured before the Pentagon was found, settled and fortified.


You made the comparative Neme, by saying House is a major threat to the NCR, despite the sheer audacity of that statebent, I'm debunking it due to several reasons. One, the Securitrons are nowhere near as numerous as you think, 2 House is entirely dependant on the Lucky 38 remaining active, and 3 even if you complete House's endgame, his range is limited to the Mojave, the NCR is CONSIDERABLY larger as are the Brotherhood in it's entirety and FAR more mobile.


Which was all Scavved from Navarro which is 30 years outdated. Oh and Zeta can be applied. I added that this is post all DLC being completed, and 5 years post Broken Steel. Why wouldn't the Wanderer give his bestest buds access?


And yet the only reason they got Helios one was due to Ellijah being a total moron, not because the Brotherhood where inept fighters. You won't get the same strategic incompetence from Lyons.


Perspective. Boon is the shit, but it's not like he can do anything but Snipe. The Pride rips him to peices. Hell, Gallows stealth kills him.


We have no way of knowing that. Hell, that could be scrap they tore off of NCR Heavy Troopers pilfered power armor, which is already made non powered because the NCR stole it off of dead Paladins and was already scrapped.


The same could be said for the Courier frankly. I mean both camps had the shit stacked against them, then they get these knights in shining armor come along and solve ALL of their problems.


Please explain this. The NCR have nothing that can tackle Prime. I'm betting the the only ones to have a half shot at downing Prime are the Boomers, and even then it's iffy, the Boomers not having anything near the destructive capacity of the Bradley-Hercules satelite missiles.


The Enclave never recovered from the loss of the Rig at the time, thats why Nevarro fell. Hell, it's not like those that went east knew Nevarro fell anyway (As proven by Ed-E's tapes from Whittley) Almost all of the Enclave's resources where shifted to Raven Rock and Adams AFB, where they had 30 years to produce APA MKII, Tesla MKII and Hellfire PAs, ALL of which are now securely in the hands of the ECBoS, and ALL of which are more advanced than T-51b and ALL of which the BoS can now make more of. This, combined with the numbers of potential recruits drawn from project purity and combined with Gunney's training FAR outshines anything in the NCR's 2 weeks of trooper training...

Don't even tell me that the Ranger training or 1st Recon training makes up the difference in this... your talking about a very small percentage of the total NCR Military machine there, and even fewer ever actually "Earn their black armor" = make it to vet status. 1. Owen is IIRC 75 years old. And if by "Held off," you mean dwindled down and got their asses kicked, yes. By Owen's own admission, they were fighting a losing battle.

2. Well let's see: The canon Mr. House ending of New Vegas backs up Mr. House being a threat to the NCR, Mr. House strongarmed them into a treaty that they did not want to partake in, and all canon evidence points to Mr. House being a serious threat considering every single other ending choice requires House dying, with the implication that total conquest of the Mojave is impossible while he is in the picture. Please stop. This is getting really sad. What you THINK has no bearing on what CANON dictates. CANON states Mr. House is able to make the NCR his ***** in his ending. Get over yourself. The Securitrons are not as numerous as I think? Well then, feel FREE to prove me wrong, since they are respawnable enemies, and Mr. House is able to manufacture new technology, and he spent his vast, pre-war fortune into making the army and keeping New Vegas safe, HUMOR ME and prove me wrong. The Lucky 38 is well protected. No aircraft is getting near it, and an attack on New Vegas is not likely. His range is limited to the Mojave? No, he is content with it. Shit, General Oliver AGREES that Mr. Houses forces are stronger than NCR forces, and while Oliver is a douchebag, if anything, he is a douchebag for overestimating the awesomeness of the NCR, not underestimating it.

3. Uhuh, no actually, where does it say the Van Graff weaponry is scavved from Navarro? Seriously, where? Other than "Why I made it up. :3" I mean, that is not a reason. The Van Graffs manufacture their own tech, what makes you think they cannot improve upon it?

4. Only that is not true. At all. Elijah was a moron because he held Helios for longer than he should of, the Brotherhood were already losing. Elijah's idiocy only led to them having more of their own killed than they should have.

5. Because Gallows has shown oh so much competence in stealth by outwitting SUPER MUTANTS. Particularly the ones on the East Coast, who are dumber than West Coast Mutants, albeit stronger. Boone in an ending takes on hundreds of Legionairres. Boone can kill them all before they can do shit, and makes Dusk look like a joke.

6. Only the scrap of Power Armour is that of the arm and... Pauldron. Something the NCR's scavenged Power Armour lacks. It is from the Brotherhood. And my real point was that Legionairres can and have taken out Power Armoured Brotherhood gaiz.

7. The difference being the Brotherhood was absolutely lost without the Lone Wanderer. The NCR and Legion were at a stalemate, and the Courier was there to break it.

8. Mr. House could wreck Prime easily actually. :3 But I digress. Luring it to a C4 covered town/valley/whatever is easy enough. And that will work, my son.

9. True, that was forgetfulness on my part, Augustus Autumn Sr. did in fact lead the Enclave towards the Capital Wasteland before Navarro fell. Seriously, even if they know how to make the equipment, why do you assume they have the resources to? I mean, sure, they could strip the dead Enclave and scrap it together from that, but that does not mean they could produce the materials needed to make this. And they do not have a real manufacturing plant. Sure, the average NCR trooper is not as well-trained as a Brotherhood member, but superior numbers. :3

Yeah only you don't factor in experience for NCR troopers who survive, and you did not factor in that those are just the only NCR elites we see... There are moar, like the Heavy Troopers for instance. Oh, and numbers. :3

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. I am not sure what you mean by "neither is..." And while you can give Casdin the Alien Blaster... Why would you? Not to mention that is irrelevant, since the Outcasts are not the Brotherhood, not anymore.

Your the one who said, essentially that: "Since we can't hand in Zeta Tech, the stuff is non canon!" The Outcasts ARE brotherhood, split sure, but as I said, with the tech that Lyons now has, he essentially completed the Brotherhoods mission by getting the tech.

Originally posted by NemeBro
So in other words,"This never happened in canon but I like the Brotherhood of Steel oh so much that I really want them to win so am giving them an advantage they never had. sad" It's absolutely adorable how you think the Brotherhood have anywhere near the technical knowhow to actually get the Zeta weaponry working, let alone mass-produced. When they have never shown that kind of technical skill, the only man alive who may be able to figure out how that works is... You guessed it, Mr. House. Whose intelligence is so obviously far beyond anyone in the Brotherhood. Oh do not get me wrong, it would take multiple NCR troopers to kill single Brotherhood soldiers in open battle, but the NCR has the numbers. Lyons is a tactical genius huh? When? :3 Since the only tactical abilities I saw were "Have Liberty Prime **** shit up" and "I guess we make a distraction and send this one guy to do most of the work." The NCR has much more experience in war than Lyons does. And Elijah's in competence is not what led to the Brotherhood losing the battle, it only led to them losing more than they had to because they should have fled.

You are a nutter Neme. They never had the advantage in game only because the game literally stalls after completing Broken Steel's sidequests. The thread is set 5 years after those events. so deal with it.

They got Prime working, they got Enclave tech, and alien Epoxy doesn't take a genius to use. You think that the Zeta tech is so insurmountable, yet you fail to realise that it's all still build with plates rivets and bolts.

Ok, so then how the **** did they actually survive 20 years that they DIDN'T have Prime up and running? No, seriously, I wanna know. Because you seem to think that the muties where roflstomping them into the ground, yet they STILL held their positions for 20 years. They gave as good as they got and stalemated the muties. The only difference is that the muties could replenish their numbers faster. but not a battlefield changing rate. And before you raise this point, the NCR is so very damn sow to mobilise, it would be the same situation.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Only the NCR has demonstrated superior strategic capability, logistically is at a much greater advantage, and of course, has far superior numbers.

REALLY?!?! Do tell! They where on the verge of getting shitstomped by a technologically regressed group of essentially Raiders and Tribals...

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Breach the walls of that scrap of shit? And yes, they can, turrets can be destroyed, and the Fatman doing nothing IS A GAME MECHANIC. Going by that, a Fatman cannot destroy the average Outhouse. erm This shit is sad kid, go back to the playground.

Why yes, since the C4 as the NCR used it on Boulder City is in fact better than a Fatman, or the gatling lasers. smile The "orbital strike" was ****ing pathetic, get over it.

Funny you should mention Game mechanics... You know, like the Lone Wanderer not being able to give the brotherhood DLC weapons and all... You can't have it both ways Neme. either game restriction is out or it's in.

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. It was essentially demolished, actually. Any technology inside is destroyed, the thing blew up from the inside. You cannot get much from that.

I mentioned it ONLY as one potential sorce, but fair enough. it's irrelevant anyway since most of the Enclaves research and production was at Adams AFB anyway, because Autum didn't trust Eden.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I am not questioning his desire to build new technology. Only his ability.

Ability gets resolved by Adams and Zeta anyway.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Adams Air Force Base. I cannot actually recall a production line in it, other than what was destroyed by an orbital strike. And wow, kid, you have exceeded all expectations. You actually are giving them the Pitt and the Mothership Zeta production lines NO ONE KNOWS HOW TO USE? Holy shit, it's like if someone gave an Ethiopian schematics for the Large Hadron Collider and said "Build one." And giving them the Pitt? The Pitt that no matter what the Lone Wanderer does, does not belong to him? Now, I understand you liking the Brotherhood of Steel, but please stop giving them resources they, in fact, do not have, and get over it. :3 Oh, and before I forget, given the timeline you suggested, the NCR themselves have roughly a year to recover after defeating the Legion forever, which is more than enough time for the NCR. Project Purity is a joke. Considering the NCR has clean water EVERYWHERE, and food that is not irradiated. The Pitt? Either the Pitt ends up no longer needing slaves, cutting it off, or Wernher is dead and Ashur remains in control of the Pitt, and either way, they won't be joining the Brotherhood. As for Point Lookout... There are what? Five able-bodied non-mutant people in Point Lookout? Also, keep in mind... Aqua Pura... IS FREE. no expression Aqua Pura will not make everyone want to join the Brotherhood, stop pretending it will. Everyone in the Capital Wasteland is out for themselves. Why would they join the Brotherhood against the NCR? Particularly when life under the NCR consists of even MOAR free water for everyone, and clean food, and better shelter? And regardless, the Brotherhood does not forcibly draft recruits. The NCR does. Recruitment is but another thing the NCR beats the Brotherhood at.

So.... Your telling me that Whitleys tapes don't tell you that production for at least the Duraframe Eyebots and Hellfire PA DIDN'T occur at Adams? Hmm, I guess the Enclave pulled all their armour weapons and equipment out of thin air then.

Nobody knows how to use eh? you mean the Slaves have been working in the Pitt to essentially work up a sweat for stuff all? heh, you are amusing.... Ashur being a former BoS helps, and if not that, Werner being etternally grateful to the LW makes BoS access easy as piss.

As for Zeta, thats been discussed above. Your trying to rebuff it because you think it's some sort of ecoteric tech that NOBODY will EVER understand, despite the fact that it functions very much like tech thats already there, only a few hundred years more advanced... hell man, the Followers give ED-E a goddamn Alien Blaster to replace it's bog standard Zapper.

The West Coast as plenty of clean water, thats true. However, the East has no such advantage, considering it was hit considerably harder by the bombs. This is why Purity is such a drawcard. Now I'm not saying that the Brotherhood will say "To Drink This you must join us" Nor am I saying that everyone who comes to Purity will immediately want to sign on. However, your ignoring one thing, their employment options are better WITH it, than without it. Thats what I'm getting at. they are making more and more positive contact with the outside world rght? they have already demonstrated the will to recruit outsiders. i'm pretty damn sure you can put 2 and 2 together Neme.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
5. Kind of like how not every Brotherhood member has a ****ing Tesla Cannon, right? Or why not everyone gets their own personal Vertibird? IT'S NOT COST EFFECTIVE. You seem to think the Brotherhood will pull the materials and power sources for all this shit from the Ether, when they cannot. Adams does not have this grand production capability, and get this through your head kid, the BoS does not own the Pitt. HV Brotherhood can SELL them to you. Why would they be carrying Tesla Cannons? They are in a cramped, fortified bunker and not expecting war with anythign that necessitates them. erm

I never said they did, did I? However, the fact remains that only a handful of elites actually get anything more than Service rifles that hardly work and bodyarmor. No, they have CATURED a working Base (Sans the Crawler which was only really mission disabled anyway), the Satelite Relay Station, and all of it's tech therein. And again, if Adams does not have production capabilities, then Whitley must be lying and the Enclave are crapping fresh armour into their armor cases every night, hence why they all are angry men with hemeroid problems, amIrite? And the LW has access to the Pit, and Zeta, he is the link in the BoS Chain really.

Originally posted by NemeBro
6. No YOU provide proof of "A couple hundred." Mr. House's military is shown to be capable of standing up to the NCR and forcing them into a "treaty," to suggest he only has a few hundred is insane. He could not have more than a hundred at the Strip? I ask you: Why the **** not? House has been preparing for the war for years before it happened, he had the time, and definitely the resources, to do this. Shit, it is even strongly implied Mr. House has his own secret production lines, and has been known to take electronics and technology from the Wastes when it suits him, as he did with Vault 21. Hell, this is the same man who with an army of Securitrons enlisted the aid of the Three Families, and had New Vegas built in time before the NCR could get there. Mr. House is far and away the most competent individual in the entire world that we know of. And why did they not C4 the place? Mr. House was aware of the exact moment that NCR scouts entered the Mojave, and was able to disable a computer program uploaded in the Lucky 38 in a matter of seconds before it happened. The NCR doing that would incite a scuffle between New Vegas while they were already fighting the Legion. Now this may surprise you, but a war on two fronts is a bad thing.

Nononono, Thats not how burden of proof works. You made the original positive claim of the thousands number, so YOU have to provide evidence for those numbers being fact.

You ask me why not? Because they are NEVER seen in anywhere near those numbers, Hell the Strip doesn;t have enough space for HUNDREDS of Securitrons, nevermind that number plus the residents and visitors.

Implication.... Funny you should mention that too. Adams not only stringly IMPLICATES as having production facilities for at least 2 of their major projects, but has proof positive in Whitley's tapes. yet according to you thats not good enough. Then, in the same paragraph you try to tell me that House has production lines Somewhere and not having a shred of proof? Double Standards much?

No, he detected it 32 seconds AFTER it was uploaded by the Courier, not before. House does not have precog. That said, I never disagreed that House was competent, My question was, how can you rate House as more of a threat than the ECBoS to the NCR when House's operational range is so damn limited? Even post House Ending his range is STILL limited to the Mojave. he'll never get within range of Shady Sands, whereas the BoS certainly can.

I am well aware that war on 2 fronts is bad. Well, technically speaking 3 fronts since they where still fighting the brotherhood at the time as well. Thats no excuse though. House's demonstrated strength at the time would have been crushed in a few weeks had the NCR put their mind to it. They where scared of the Legion though and where pressed into rethinking their strategy.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Mr. House is "limited" to the Mojave in that he is content to stay there for the moment. Mr. House's entire plan is to rebuild civilization from New Vegas. And seriously? Have you actually played the ****ing game? Since in the Mr. House ending, Mr. House gains control of the entire Mojave, with the NCR unable to **** with his power. Kid, The Three Families are an army in their own right, and the Securitrons, along with being>>>Brotherhood troops to a man, is large enough. Plus Mr. House has ****ing laser cannons installed on the top of the 38. no expression Good luck getting to the Mojave by Vertibird if Mr. House does not want you there.

Truth be told, I havn't beaten it with House yet, Nor Yes-Man for that matter.

Rebuild Civilisation perhaps, but at the time, his operational range was severely limited to the Strip pretty much, unless the Courier helps him, abd even then he is still limited to the Mojave. He doesn't have the means to extend that range in game, so he's not going east towards Arizona, and he's not going back west towards California any time soon.

Heh, and now prove that those Laser Cannons function now since the Lucky 38's reactor is offline unless the Courier helps him. Not to mention extreme lack of use since the bombs.

Hell, at least 1 of the 3 families, and the leader of a 2nd tried to stab House in the back.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Owen is IIRC 75 years old. And if by "Held off," you mean dwindled down and got their asses kicked, yes. By Owen's own admission, they were fighting a losing battle.

*Shakes head* for 20 years they held that line. 20 years. yes, they where slowly dwindling, but they lasted a HELL of a lot longer than anyone else in that position would have. the NCR troops don't have the means to hold off things like Behemoths and Overlords. Yes, the Mariposa Mutants where slightly smarter, but the V87 muties where far stronger.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Well let's see: The canon Mr. House ending of New Vegas backs up Mr. House being a threat to the NCR, Mr. House strongarmed them into a treaty that they did not want to partake in, and all canon evidence points to Mr. House being a serious threat considering every single other ending choice requires House dying, with the implication that total conquest of the Mojave is impossible while he is in the picture. Please stop. This is getting really sad. What you THINK has no bearing on what CANON dictates. CANON states Mr. House is able to make the NCR his ***** in his ending. Get over yourself. The Securitrons are not as numerous as I think? Well then, feel FREE to prove me wrong, since they are respawnable enemies, and Mr. House is able to manufacture new technology, and he spent his vast, pre-war fortune into making the army and keeping New Vegas safe, HUMOR ME and prove me wrong. The Lucky 38 is well protected. No aircraft is getting near it, and an attack on New Vegas is not likely. His range is limited to the Mojave? No, he is content with it. Shit, General Oliver AGREES that Mr. Houses forces are stronger than NCR forces, and while Oliver is a douchebag, if anything, he is a douchebag for overestimating the awesomeness of the NCR, not underestimating it.

Canon dictates whatever the Courier chooses to do. Not you. Mr House is a threat via political standpoint more than anything else, he is rich, richer than anyone else in Fallout. and it was through movement of that wealth and political acumen that made him a viable threat, not militarily, since he knew that if either side "won" the 2nd battle of the Hoover, the winner would literally steamroll Vegas. Thats the only reason. He's not a military powerhouse like you seem to think.

Like I said, You made the claim, YOU have to provide the evidence Neme, I'm not some noob you can push around with your backpedalling and trying to shift the burden of proof.

was that before or after the Platinum Chip escapade? Geez man, You need to stop and think about what your saying before you blurt that crap at me.

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Uhuh, no actually, where does it say the Van Graff weaponry is scavved from Navarro? Seriously, where? Other than "Why I made it up. :3" I mean, that is not a reason. The Van Graffs manufacture their own tech, what makes you think they cannot improve upon it?

Oh? Really? So the Van Graffes know how to produce energy weapons? Where was this stated then? And Weapon mods are a new feature in Fallout, I like it a lot, so much so that I'm trying WME out as we speak. Nevertheless, Peabody outright states that Plasma Weapons are "Limited" in modability. And Lyons states that 'The secrets of producing the P90 Plasma Rifle are all but lost."

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
4. Only that is not true. At all. Elijah was a moron because he held Helios for longer than he should of, the Brotherhood were already losing. Elijah's idiocy only led to them having more of their own killed than they should have.

No, it was idiocy that they stopped at all at Helios One instead of proceeding to the more difensible Dam, and that blunder cost them. Elijah was a scribe before becoming Elder, not a Paladin. Lyons was a Soldier.

Originally posted by NemeBro
5. Because Gallows has shown oh so much competence in stealth by outwitting SUPER MUTANTS. Particularly the ones on the East Coast, who are dumber than West Coast Mutants, albeit stronger. Boone in an ending takes on hundreds of Legionairres. Boone can kill them all before they can do shit, and makes Dusk look like a joke.

Gallows also showed his mettle with the Enclave dude. you seem to like forgetting things that are inconveniant. Oh my, ENDINGS! Shall we also bring up the one where he gets decapitated? No?

Originally posted by NemeBro
6. Only the scrap of Power Armour is that of the arm and... Pauldron. Something the NCR's scavenged Power Armour lacks. It is from the Brotherhood. And my real point was that Legionairres can and have taken out Power Armoured Brotherhood gaiz.

Ok, Fair enough, Now try to prove that they actually got that from a BoS member and didnt simply find a stash of T-45d PAs, I mean it's not like there arn't stashes of T-45d PAs around right? *Sighs*

Originally posted by NemeBro
7. The difference being the Brotherhood was absolutely lost without the Lone Wanderer. The NCR and Legion were at a stalemate, and the Courier was there to break it.

The NCR where on the verge of defeat Neme. Searchlight, Nipton, Nelson, Bombing of the Monorail at McCarran, great Khan and Omerta's siding with the Legion, Internal problems, Kimbal's assasination... I mean the only problem the Legion had really was Ceaser's brain tumor, and even if he dies, Lanius steps up to the plate... yeah, the NCR was so damn effective...

Originally posted by NemeBro
8. Mr. House could wreck Prime easily actually. :3 But I digress. Luring it to a C4 covered town/valley/whatever is easy enough. And that will work, my son.

Right, because it's not like Prime can't fight at range, or blow up Boulder City with a hurled Nuclear football right? Riiiiight.... All that Dynamite and C4 goes up like a fireworks display before Prime sets foot within 300 meters of the trap becaue it's an obstacle.

Originally posted by NemeBro
9. True, that was forgetfulness on my part, Augustus Autumn Sr. did in fact lead the Enclave towards the Capital Wasteland before Navarro fell. Seriously, even if they know how to make the equipment, why do you assume they have the resources to? I mean, sure, they could strip the dead Enclave and scrap it together from that, but that does not mean they could produce the materials needed to make this. And they do not have a real manufacturing plant. Sure, the average NCR trooper is not as well-trained as a Brotherhood member, but superior numbers. :3

They would do it the same way the Enclave did? I mean damn dude, the vaults have replicators (or something similar to) and the Enclave (Who funded and organised Braun's projects in the first place) would easily have that tech, now that tech is in the hands of ECBoS.

As I said earlier, numbers are an advantage, but that advantage dwindles in the face of superior firepower and tactics. The NCR have been known to act out like the Legion at times and just rush in with a massive press of bodies. Thats suicidal.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah only you don't factor in experience for NCR troopers who survive, and you did not factor in that those are just the only NCR elites we see... There are moar, like the Heavy Troopers for instance. Oh, and numbers. :3

I did factor those in, (Not reading my posts?) How many do you suppose are going to survive first contact? Not bloody many. and those that do are either going to be traumatised, or hailed as heroes for surviving. The Vet rangers and Heavy Troopers are pretty much held back for much of the game, tied up with brahmin barons and the Boneyard. They don't truly make a full apperance until after Kimbal's assasination attempt.

TacDavey
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Yeah man, I guess that is why they decidedly beat the shit out of the Legion during the Battle of Hoover Dam, the first one. Wow they suck dude, getting their asses beat by the Legion and shit. no expression Not to mention... The Legion is huge. Gigantic. All of Arizona is their territory, and their "recruitment" policy gives them much higher men to arm with machetes to take on the NCR. Now, admittedly, the Legion would have a harder time with the Brotherhood than the NCR would, because while those weapons are kewl for killing NCR Troopers, Power Armour is much harder to pierce. But still, you need to take into account the sheer superhuman physical qualities of the Legion. Take a look at Centurion armor. It is scrapped from pieces of defeated enemies' own armour. Like Super Mutant armor. Or Brotherhood armour. :3 I am not just making this shit up, that is what Centurion Armor has. So obviously the Legion can fight the Brotherhood.

I don't see what the fact that their armor is taken from bits of others has to do with anything...

The NCR is loosing ground to the legion, and the legion hasn't even left it's base across he river. They are loosing towns and settlements to the legion's because the higher ups don't know what they are doing. Ask any party member from the NCR, or almost any NCR character in the game. They are sitting on their thumbs letting the legion run wild because none of their superiors seem to know how to play war. NCR might be a powerhouse in the Fallout universe, but the detachment that's chilling in the New Vegas area is sourly lacking.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. Wipe out squads of Enclave like it was nothing. With the exception of Liberty Prime, Brotherhood tech is not that advanced. And to be blunt, without Liberty Prime, the Enclave would have crushed the Brotherhood. Losing Liberty Prime was seen as a VERY BAD THING. It was only due to the Lone Wanderer, a certifiable BAMF, that they won.

Actually, I was referring to Liberty Prime when I made that comment. I still don't know if the Brotherhood has Liberty Prime or not. The starter of the thread should decide whether they have it fixed at this point or not. Because with Liberty Prime, I don't see what the NCR is really going to do.

Originally posted by NemeBro
3. Well said guy knew how to get Helios up and running. He just needed someone else to do the legwork. But it is irrelevant, Archimedes is largely unnecessary.

I agree, since the NCR doesn't even know about it, and without the courier it doesn't get up and running anyway. So the NCR doesn't have it anyway.

Originally posted by NemeBro
4. Yeah man, because vastly superior numbers backed by better recruiting, and much greater resources, is nothing in the face of the technological advantage that the NCr already has beaten. The ****ing West Coast Brotherhood has multiple members using Gauss Rifles. Yeah, but the East Coast is so hax. erm

I don't know why you think they have a much better recruiting option. Not a lot of people in the New Vegas area like the NCR very much.

I'll give you that the NCR has beaten a chunk of Brotherhood of Steel that was in the Vegas area. But the Brotherhood the NCR defeated was run by a mad man. Had it been in a competent leaders hands, it might have gone differently.

srankmissingnin
The NCR has enough trouble with slavers in centurion armor and machetes...

RE: Blaxican
Liberty Prime wasn't tanking mini-nukes. For ****s sakes, not everything that has a mushroom cloud is some kind of ultimo-nuclear explosion.

Snafu the Great
According to Fallout Wiki, Sarah Lyons was born in 2251 inside the Lost Hills Bunker, which makes her 26 years old in Fallout 3 (31 by New Vegas).

Owyn Lyons was born in 2202, which makes him 75 by Fallout 3 (80 by New Vegas).

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Liberty Prime wasn't tanking mini-nukes. For ****s sakes, not everything that has a mushroom cloud is some kind of ultimo-nuclear explosion.

Oh? So the Vertibird ordinance (Which is listed in both the GECK and Wikifiles as a Mini-Nike) is.... not a mini-nuke? Interesting....

RE: Blaxican
What is a "mini-nuke"? Could you explain it in your own words if asked too?

Darkstorm Zero
Sure.

It's a miniaturised nuclear warhead.

RE: Blaxican
What does that mean, is what I asked you. What is a miniaturized nuclear warhead, breh?

ares834
NCR steamrolls.

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What is a "mini-nuke"? Could you explain it in your own words if asked too?

A (very) low-yield nuclear bomb?

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
A (very) low-yield nuclear bomb? Ding ding ding.

How low is "low", though? There are to my knowledge at least ten real life yields of nuclear weapons.

Which brings me to my point. People always go so balls deep over the Liberty Prime mini-nuke thing, but they don't understand how nuclear weaponry works. "Mini" literally means "smaller than the average". But there is no average yield for nuclear weapons, so how can you have a "mini" nuke compared to a "regular" nuke? You can't.

There's no such thing as a mini-nuke, there is only nuclear and non-nuclear, and just because something is nuclear does not mean that it automatically has a certain intensity.

Meaning, "Liberty Prime tanked a mini-nuke!" is a meaningless statement, and is not an indication of its durability in any way, shape, or form.

TacDavey
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Ding ding ding.

How low is "low", though? There are to my knowledge at least ten real life yields of nuclear weapons.

Which brings me to my point. People always go so balls deep over the Liberty Prime mini-nuke thing, but they don't understand how nuclear weaponry works. "Mini" literally means "smaller than the average". But there is no average yield for nuclear weapons, so how can you have a "mini" nuke compared to a "regular" nuke? You can't.

There's no such thing as a mini-nuke, there is only nuclear and non-nuclear, and just because something is nuclear does not mean that it automatically has a certain intensity.

Meaning, "Liberty Prime tanked a mini-nuke!" is a meaningless statement, and is not an indication of its durability in any way, shape, or form.

A mini nuke is basically the most powerful explosion you'll get from a weapon found in the Fallout universe. There are few explosives that have more power that are available to either side of this fight. So it IS a good representation. NCR can throw whatever they want at it, it's not going to stop it.

RE: Blaxican
That doesn't really have anything to do with what I said.

TacDavey
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
That doesn't really have anything to do with what I said.

No? I thought your point was that Liberty Prime tanking mini nukes has no bearing on the debate, because there is no way to gauge the power of a mini nuke.

RE: Blaxican
My point was that there is no such thing as a mini-nuke and being hit by a nuclear explosion in as of itself is not indicative of any durability limits. The fact that the mini-nuke in FA3 is the strongest weapon in the game has no bearing on that.

TacDavey
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
My point was that there is no such thing as a mini-nuke and being hit by a nuclear explosion in as of itself is not indicative of any durability limits. The fact that the mini-nuke in FA3 is the strongest weapon in the game has no bearing on that.

There's also no such thing as a lazer gun. Or a tesla canon. Since when are we applying realistic laws to a fantasy game?

In the Fallout universe there IS such thing as a mini nuke.

RE: Blaxican
Can you show me a mini-nuke in the game? I am aware of a weapon that is called a mini-nuke, but I have not see an actual mini-nuke.

NemeBro
Originally posted by TacDavey
A mini nuke is basically the most powerful explosion you'll get from a weapon found in the Fallout universe. There are few explosives that have more power that are available to either side of this fight. So it IS a good representation. NCR can throw whatever they want at it, it's not going to stop it. Only by actual feats, the destruction of Boulder City is far superior to what destroyed Liberty Prime, your own fanwank means little. smile

Oh, and House's super awesome Lucky 38 laser cannons I guess.

DSZ, I will answer your word-quilt (I assume, have not really looked at it) later, or maybe I will not. It is so hard to say.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
How low is "low", though? There are to my knowledge at least ten real life yields of nuclear weapons.

The very fact that your trying to compare a known miniature nuclear weapon fired from a MANPAD to a full scale actual Fatman (IE: like the one in Megaton) is silly. Nobody here ever said that even the Experimental MIRV compares to the Megaton bomb.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Which brings me to my point. People always go so balls deep over the Liberty Prime mini-nuke thing, but they don't understand how nuclear weaponry works. "Mini" literally means "smaller than the average". But there is no average yield for nuclear weapons, so how can you have a "mini" nuke compared to a "regular" nuke? You can't.

Your comparing several dozen tonnes of TNT sized blasts (For the Mini-Nuke) to a full scale Nuke detonation (25 Megatonnes at the very least).

Are you going to educate us on how nuclear weaponry works in Fallout now? because it seems to me that your trying to apply a real world context to it. There is none. Fallout is a fantasy, with fantasy weapons.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
There's no such thing as a mini-nuke, there is only nuclear and non-nuclear, and just because something is nuclear does not mean that it automatically has a certain intensity.

Thermonuclear detonation, no matter the size, has a flashpoint of tens of thousands of degrees, about as much as the surface temperatures of some stars. it is this factor plus the shockwave that does most of the bombs damage. The radiation is an aftereffect. Now obviously, the bigger the detonation, the larger area the flashpoint covers and the larger the shockwave. However, that doesn't explain Liberty Prime's ability to shrug off direct hits by these mini-bombs, he'd be right inside the flashpoint, and yet, nothing. This also says something for direct missile hits, countless laser and plasma shots harmlessly plinking off him.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Meaning, "Liberty Prime tanked a mini-nuke!" is a meaningless statement, and is not an indication of its durability in any way, shape, or form.

Already explained. A smaller nuclear detonation is still a nuclear detonation. And again; nobody said he could tank an actual full scaled nuclear blast, given what DID eventually down him had the same effect on Megaton as what a full scaled nuke did.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
My point was that there is no such thing as a mini-nuke and being hit by a nuclear explosion in as of itself is not indicative of any durability limits. The fact that the mini-nuke in FA3 is the strongest weapon in the game has no bearing on that.

Oh? so tanking a weapon that has set limits and feats is suddenly inadmissable because you cant figure out how it works? Wierd.... And I thought it was because "He didn't tank mini-nukes" a few posts ago...

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Can you show me a mini-nuke in the game? I am aware of a weapon that is called a mini-nuke, but I have not see an actual mini-nuke.

http://www.coolorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/c1cab020ec00x267.png.png
Here are the Mini-Nuke and the Fatman Launcher that fires them.

Xug7Ica5Y3g
And this is how the weapon is used in-game.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Only by actual feats, the destruction of Boulder City is far superior to what destroyed Liberty Prime, your own fanwank means little. smile

Only we never see the destruction of Boulder City, and so trying to draw up a comparative is utterly meaningless. Especially considering what eventually destroyed Prime had the power to destroy Megaton in a fasion only a full scale Nuclear Blast could match. It leveled the Citadel to an extent unmached by anything else in the game, and it mission killed the Base Crawler. Hell man, the Bradley-Hercules Sat Missiles make ARCHIMEDES look like shit, considering the Satelite Laser didn't even damage the Solar Panels when it was set on automatic to level the NCR at Helios One.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Oh, and House's super awesome Lucky 38 laser cannons I guess.

Which are effectively featless exept for shooting down Bombs and Missiles something today's tech is capable of doing.

Originally posted by NemeBro
DSZ, I will answer your word-quilt (I assume, have not really looked at it) later, or maybe I will not. It is so hard to say.

I'll be waiting.

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The very fact that your trying to compare a known miniature nuclear weapon fired from a MANPAD to a full scale actual Fatman (IE: like the one in Megaton) is silly. Nobody here ever said that even the Experimental MIRV compares to the Megaton bomb.

I never said it did or didn't, that's inconsequential to my point.





I'm not making any comparisons at all.


So? That doesn't mean that I'm wrong.





Absolutely.





I needn't go any further, since you agree with me then, I guess.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I never said it did or didn't, that's inconsequential to my point.

You said you can't find a real world equivalent, or can explain the weapon, therefore it's invalid.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I'm not making any comparisons at all.

But you did, you made the comparison on the basis that the Mini-Nuke does not jack up to Megatonne yields like a real nuke would and therefore it's featless against Liberty Prime, despite the fact that even though the Fatman is nowhere near real nuke yields, it is by far the strongets weapon available to the player (And NPCs by extension). The entire point of that feat was to demonstrate that even if the NCR was better equipped, it wouldn't mean anything against Prime.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
So? That doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

In the context of the debate? Yes it is. You cannot apply physics to something that does not exist, is not testable, falsifiable and makes no predictions. That makes the fatman Launcher and it's ammo Science Fiction, not Scientific Theory.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Absolutely.

If you agree, then what was your point?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
I needn't go any further, since you agree with me then, I guess.

Again, why would you downplay a feat if you agree with the specifics? The entire premise was that Prime withstands Mini-Nukes, not full scale ones. And Mini-Nukes being the absolute best that the NCR can throw at him?

Now, I understand that you had a issue with some people reveling in the fact that rime withstands mini-nukes, and whoever they where, pretty mch used that feat to make him an invincible machine-god on par with the likes of Optimus Prime and the Night Bringer, but that issue had nothing to do with me, and have seen far better feats in other media.

FinalAnswer
Now that the New Vegas DLC is done, I feel I should bump this, just to point out that, thanks to The Courier having Big MT at his back and call, the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood can kiss its technological advantages goodbye.

And that The Courier would hand The Lone Wanderer his ass to him on a silver platter.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Now that the New Vegas DLC is done, I feel I should bump this, just to point out that, thanks to The Courier having Big MT at his back and call, the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood can kiss its technological advantages goodbye.

And that The Courier would hand The Lone Wanderer his ass to him on a silver platter.

Big Mt Tech vs Zeta tech? Surely you jest sir! estahuh

FinalAnswer
Big MT Tech creates armies of invulnerable holograms and teleporters.

And cazadores. awesome

Darkstorm Zero
But... But Death Rays that make big holes the size of Texas! link-rape

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
But... But Death Rays that make big holes the size of Texas! link-rape

B-But they're unable to access the death ray O:

Nephthys
The NCR control an area the size of pretty much an entire state iirc. The CW Brotherhood control a single large building.

My word this is a hard fight.

It would be more fair to have the whole Brotherhood vs the NCR probably.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
B-But they're unable to access the death ray O:

Hmm, They must've been firing poptarts from the bridge to destroy the other ship then. dgrin

Originally posted by Nephthys
The NCR control an area the size of pretty much an entire state iirc. The CW Brotherhood control a single large building.

My word this is a hard fight.

It would be more fair to have the whole Brotherhood vs the NCR probably.

Set 5 years post Broken Steel, I think the EC BOS control more than the Citadel, and with LWs help, probably most of the Capital Wasteland.... huhu

Nephthys
Which even if true, and I think you're just guessing, is still only a single city.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Nephthys
Which even if true, and I think you're just guessing, is still only a single city.

No it isn't...

It's DC, The surrounding towns, and a sizable part of former Washington State.

Then there is the Pitt, another potential city, and Maryland, another potential swath of land opened up because of the LW.

Space/size of conquered land isn't an issue. I have no doubt NCR is by far the bigger force, as they hold at least 3 major cities and are expanding on a fourth, and already has innumerable townships as well, BUT the technology edge is still with Lyons BOS, mostly due to more modernised captured Enclave tech, and Zeta. The tactical advantage of what basically amounts to a flying city is simply too great to overcome.

NemeBro
NCR can't reproduce Zeta tech, no one can, in five years time it will be all gone, and they certainly are not going to maintain Mothership Zeta (Nor are they shown to be capable of using it, so much speculation up in here). Nor are they shown using the Pitt, considering neither of the two potential leaders of it have shown any desire to join with the Brotherhood.

Really, the NCR's resources are concrete, set in stone.

The Brotherhood's are speculation.

Facts beat speculation 100% of the time.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
NCR can't reproduce Zeta tech, no one can, in five years time it will be all gone, and they certainly are not going to maintain Mothership Zeta (Nor are they shown to be capable of using it, so much speculation up in here).

The first statement is irrelevant, given that Zeta has reproduction capability inside it's ship in the first place.

The 2nd is dictated by OP. 5 years of prep and the LW (Captain of Zeta, and Hero of Both the Pitt & Point Lookout) at their back means it's not as speculative as plucking pure crap out of thin air.
313_rage

Originally posted by NemeBro
Nor are they shown using the Pitt, considering neither of the two potential leaders of it have shown any desire to join with the Brotherhood.

As stated above Neme, LW provides the access, since either Ashur or Werner are both in debt to him.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Really, the NCR's resources are concrete, set in stone.

The Brotherhood's are speculation.

Facts beat speculation 100% of the time.

Really? Then why where they so hard pressed by the Legion? Why was their recource management running like crap for 5 years? Why was annexing Vegas proving to be totally impossible for such an uber force?

Here is a fact for you. Both sides of this conflict had their shining knights show up out of thin air and solved ALL of their problems.

And fact: CWBOS Has production and resources thanks to Adams AFB irrespective, Adding the Pitt and Zeta means they have all the resources they need.

And I don't particularly care about your scemantics at the moment. Post Broken Steel by 5 years is pretty much entirely speculatory for both sides (As 1 to 2 years of prep is the cronological equivalent for New Vegas anyway).
jsmirk

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hmm, They must've been firing poptarts from the bridge to destroy the other ship then. dgrin

They're locked out after the fight. O:

Naw, but really, even assuming that the Brotherhood could find out how to competently reproduce Zeta tech at a rate that would actually see results, which I sincerely doubt, Zeta tech is much more limited then Big MT tech, especially when the Think Tank is capable of still producing new tech, unlike Zeta. Undefeatable hologram armies, city-wide life-wiping clouds, teleportation devices, armies of robo-scorpions, cazadores, ect, along with the ablility to synthesize resources from cheap metal, gives the NCR an unbelievable edge. Big MT tech backed by the far superior resources of the NCR is more then capable of laying waste to The Capital Wasteland.

Especially when The Courier would beat the Lone Wanderer up. (:

And as for why The NCR had trouble with the Legion, the Legion also has vast resources, and even more soldiers, and the NCR had trouble with House due to unable to be willing to fight a war on two fronts in the Mojave. Despite this, they still trumped the Legion in the 1st Battle of Hoover Dam.

NemeBro
Yes yes, I am well aware that you have made the OP to slant the fight into the NCR's favor, I just don't care, and dismiss it.

As for the Legion? The Legion control all of Arizona and more. The NCR is also away where it is normally based, and their entire force is not brough to bear there. Then there is of course Mr. House exploiting their resources.

See, we know what happens if the NCR wins. They occupy New Vegas entirely, and no longer have House, the Legion, the Boomers, or the Brotherhood to worry about, their supply routes are safe, etc etc.

Then there is the fact that the NCR sort of, well you know, has beaten both the Brotherhood and the Enclave, doing the former without any real help from a savior.

The Brotherhood's advantages lie in technology and training per man. The NCR's lie in size, number of soldiers, resources, and most importantly of all, logistical superiority. The Brotherhood has at their most wanked the Pitt (Not much of an advantage, one single steel mill couldn't rival the production capabilities of solitary businesses like the Van Graffs or the Gun Runners, let alone the whole ****ing NCR, which does business with both). Mothership Zeta? Lolno man, there is like what? A single ****ing room able to be accessed now, the rest being locked? Wow damn that sure is an advantage, TRULY THE GIANT IMMOBILE HUNK OF METAL IN SPACE WILL PLAY A FACTOR. And if you try to argue or state that the Brotherhood can break through in five years, not through hacking or force. Hacking is just a case of the Brotherhood never being shown to be nearly as advanced as what that would take. As for force? We know that the space ships of the aliens can withstand many direct hits from weaponry that blows up areas the size of Texas, so that is so unlikely as to be impossible, considering the apparent high-grade nature of the materials the aliens use. Then there is of course the dinky ass space ships and even weaponry mostly surviving orbital re-entry, with most of the metal being intact.

Now, let's say I wank the NCR? Big MT, given by the Courier, gives them the ability to make virtually any resource from cheap metal, which alone is so logistically overpowered to be cheating, along with a bunch of other bullshit. Hell, why stop there? Why not say the Courier figures out how to use the Platinum Chip, giving the NCR a ****ing upgraded Securitron Army? Now they have a large army of soldiers that are in fact better than a Brotherhood Paladin one on one.

Damn man, speculation sure is fun!

Also... Why mention Maryland? What in Point Lookout would be useful to the Brotherhood? Unless you are suggesting they will make the mutated rednecks Brotherhood members. no expression

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
They're locked out after the fight. O:

Not the Bridge one. excellent

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Naw, but really, even assuming that the Brotherhood could find out how to competently reproduce Zeta tech at a rate that would actually see results, which I sincerely doubt, Zeta tech is much more limited then Big MT tech, especially when the Think Tank is capable of still producing new tech, unlike Zeta. Undefeatable hologram armies, city-wide life-wiping clouds, teleportation devices, armies of robo-scorpions, cazadores, ect, along with the ablility to synthesize resources from cheap metal, gives the NCR an unbelievable edge. Big MT tech backed by the far superior resources of the NCR is more then capable of laying waste to The Capital Wasteland.

alot of the tech in Zeta is more esoteric. The average weapon is a good 1.5 to 2 times more powerful than the equivelant earthly energy weapon.

Zeta has it's own teleportation tech as well, and the ability to "beam" objects from the surface to the cargo hold. Wait.... I smell a big Big MT steal grab of tech! duryes

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Especially when The Courier would beat the Lone Wanderer up. (:

That is an entirely debatable subject in and of itself. The sheer perk battery the LW posesses over the Courier is immense.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
And as for why The NCR had trouble with the Legion, the Legion also has vast resources, and even more soldiers, and the NCR had trouble with House due to unable to be willing to fight a war on two fronts in the Mojave. Despite this, they still trumped the Legion in the 1st Battle of Hoover Dam.

The legion are also far more technologically regressed than the NCR or the Brotherhood... They have men, and they have resources, but their methodology is much more simplistic than that of the Brotherhood. It's not the same kind of matchup as what happened with the Mojave Brotherhood, the CWBOS are a whole different ballgame than even Lost Hills would be.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No it isn't...

It's DC, The surrounding towns, and a sizable part of former Washington State.

Then there is the Pitt, another potential city, and Maryland, another potential swath of land opened up because of the LW.

Space/size of conquered land isn't an issue. I have no doubt NCR is by far the bigger force, as they hold at least 3 major cities and are expanding on a fourth, and already has innumerable townships as well, BUT the technology edge is still with Lyons BOS, mostly due to more modernised captured Enclave tech, and Zeta. The tactical advantage of what basically amounts to a flying city is simply too great to overcome.

Ok, then technically they might have rivet city, the citadel, megaton and Arefu. Megaton has about 20-30 inhabitants, Rivet city is a single aircraft carrier, so at best it has a hundred, much more likely far less and Arefu has 6 inhabitants. Capital wasteland is near uninhabited dude. And none of the above are real cities like Las Vagas is, thanks to House blocking all nuclear strikes on the actual city.

I don't believe they could have taken over either of those. The Eastern branch didn't expand in 20 years. I doubt they'd explode so much in just 5.

Technology gap isn't that vast considering FinalAnswers post. The NCR has Power Armor as well, so their troops aren't that outmatched either. With the massive resource and manpower advantage they still steamroll the Brotherhood.

NemeBro
Logistically the Legion are superior to the Brotherhood and arguably even the NCR.

"Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics."

No one ****s with the supply routes of the Legion, which is why so many caravans sign up with them.

Nephthys
Yeah the Legion is scary. Luckily they have no real future once Caesar dies. The only question is how much he takes with him.

Edit: Also the NCR has access to the technology in Vault City, nothing to sneeze at.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
Yes yes, I am well aware that you have made the OP to slant the fight into the NCR's favor, I just don't care, and dismiss it.

I made no such distinction, and I never slanted to any one side. When this was made, the majority of NV's DLCs where not yet made, but I did say it was post ALL DLC did I not? Well then you have nothing to complain about.

Oh, and if you DON'T like my thread, you can leave and not come back, mkay.

Originally posted by NemeBro
As for the Legion? The Legion control all of Arizona and more. The NCR is also away where it is normally based, and their entire force is not brough to bear there. Then there is of course Mr. House exploiting their resources.

Which doesn't detract from my point. Even post NV + it's DLCs by 2 years, would the NCR be able to mount a defence against the CWBOS?

Originally posted by NemeBro
See, we know what happens if the NCR wins. They occupy New Vegas entirely, and no longer have House, the Legion, the Boomers, or the Brotherhood to worry about, their supply routes are safe, etc etc.

They even made friends out of the Boomers, M BOS, Kings and a whole mess of other factions, sure, I'm aware of these facts. But that does not mean they will be ready. it would depend on wether or not they know the CWBOS are comming.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Then there is the fact that the NCR sort of, well you know, has beaten both the Brotherhood and the Enclave, doing the former without any real help from a savior.

And no other faction of the BOS has what Lyons has.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The Brotherhood's advantages lie in technology and training per man. The NCR's lie in size, number of soldiers, resources, and most importantly of all, logistical superiority. The Brotherhood has at their most wanked the Pitt (Not much of an advantage, one single steel mill couldn't rival the production capabilities of solitary businesses like the Van Graffs or the Gun Runners, let alone the whole ****ing NCR, which does business with both).

A Steel Mill that as per Ashur is a resource that is absolutely unique. They never found another fully working steel mill ever. There is nothing to state that the Van Graffes and the Gun Runners are not simply still using recycled salvage. Whereas we know the Pitt is unique, and Adams AFB had enough production facilities to equip the entire Enclave. Whitleys tapes are proof of this.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Mothership Zeta? Lolno man, there is like what? A single ****ing room able to be accessed now, the rest being locked? Wow damn that sure is an advantage, TRULY THE GIANT IMMOBILE HUNK OF METAL IN SPACE WILL PLAY A FACTOR.

Ok, first and foremost, thats pure game restruction.

2nd, it is only immobile because they don't understand the controls yet, and still kicked the tar out of an equally formidable enemy ship. In 5 years that can definitely change, especially with scribes working on it and arn't recource depleted.

Originally posted by NemeBro
And if you try to argue or state that the Brotherhood can break through in five years, not through hacking or force. Hacking is just a case of the Brotherhood never being shown to be nearly as advanced as what that would take. As for force? We know that the space ships of the aliens can withstand many direct hits from weaponry that blows up areas the size of Texas, so that is so unlikely as to be impossible, considering the apparent high-grade nature of the materials the aliens use. Then there is of course the dinky ass space ships and even weaponry mostly surviving orbital re-entry, with most of the metal being intact.

you are simply being scemantic. The doors becoming inaccesible is game restriction. The LW has a 2 way transportation device to the bridge.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Now, let's say I wank the NCR? Big MT, given by the Courier, gives them the ability to make virtually any resource from cheap metal, which alone is so logistically overpowered to be cheating, along with a bunch of other bullshit. Hell, why stop there? Why not say the Courier figures out how to use the Platinum Chip, giving the NCR a ****ing upgraded Securitron Army? Now they have a large army of soldiers that are in fact better than a Brotherhood Paladin one on one.

I have no problems with this.

But since the Securitron army is infact very small, and it's equivelant firepower compared to a composite Paladin with Zeta weapons and Enclave Armor is still pretty heavily in the Paladin's favour.

Question - Would the NCR allow support from the Securitrons over a long term basis though?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Damn man, speculation sure is fun!

It's not entirely speculation if it can be explained logically as a reasonable conclusion after 2 years of prep.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Also... Why mention Maryland? What in Point Lookout would be useful to the Brotherhood? Unless you are suggesting they will make the mutated rednecks Brotherhood members. no expression

I never said that, I never even suggested it.

However, the tech beneath the lighthouse would be worth a look.

Darkstorm Zero
I'll have to return later, I gotta work, but I will be back

Nephthys
Take your time.

Found this:

Population: Though a census has been conducted, we do not have access to the figures. NCR is believed to have many tens of thousands of people.

- Vault City travel log.

And this was as of Fallout 2, nearly 100 years before New Vagas. no expression

Edit: And this:


How big is NCR?
Founded eighty years ago, the NCR is now comprised of the states of Shady, Los Angeles, Maxson, Hub, and Dayglow. Approximately 700,000 citizens are pleased to call NCR home.

- NCR History Disk. Also in Fallout 2.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok, then technically they might have rivet city, the citadel, megaton and Arefu. Megaton has about 20-30 inhabitants, Rivet city is a single aircraft carrier, so at best it has a hundred, much more likely far less and Arefu has 6 inhabitants. Capital wasteland is near uninhabited dude. And none of the above are real cities like Las Vagas is, thanks to House blocking all nuclear strikes on the actual city.

Lets see... The 4 you mention plus, Lets say Canterbury Commons and it's caravans, Big Town, Little lamplight (this one is a bit of a stretch...) Republic Of Dave, Tenpenny Tower, Temple Of the Union/Lincholn Monument, Girdirshade, Underworld, Paradise Falls (Thats a big stretch). Playing the cards right, or even if one eradicates a population (Such as with Paradise Falls) That can still be reused and re-fortified. Now, since Lyons conscripts, and since P Purity is such a big drawcard, the population pool is going to be much larger than what the initial game would suggest. Rumors will spread out from the capital and attract populations from the wider areas as well, the search for clean drinking water on the East Coast in it's entirety is a much more challenging affair considering how much harder it was hit by the bombs.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't believe they could have taken over either of those. The Eastern branch didn't expand in 20 years. I doubt they'd explode so much in just 5.

Not take over, draw from. They already have a rapport with most settlements already, and make regular deliveries even to Evergreen mills, a large Raider compound. the major thing is that the Muties have receded, and the Enclave are now gone, they have a firm foothold, they control the biggest drawcard since the GECK with Project Purity, and they are no longer being bled white by the constant fighting with Mutants.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Technology gap isn't that vast considering FinalAnswers post. The NCR has Power Armor as well, so their troops aren't that outmatched either. With the massive resource and manpower advantage they still steamroll the Brotherhood.

The NCR has salvaged unpowered T-45b power armor... They are outmatched by far man to man.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Logistically the Legion are superior to the Brotherhood and arguably even the NCR.

Logistics and strategy/tactics are onl a part of successful battlefield operations.

Originally posted by NemeBro
"Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics."

Bullocks. tactics and strategy are as important as firepower and logistics. NCR proved it's frontier logistics ran like well used toilet paper for 5 years straight, even after a substantial victory at the 1st battle of Hoover Dam. That is an example of poor strategy. The tactics where flawless, but broader strategy dictated they should have pressed hard after the Legion was in retreat. They didn't, and it bit them in the arse hard later.

Originally posted by NemeBro
No one ****s with the supply routes of the Legion, which is why so many caravans sign up with them.

That is within their own boarders though, it's entirely different when your on a frontier.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah the Legion is scary. Luckily they have no real future once Caesar dies. The only question is how much he takes with him.

Almost all of it. Only the fear of Lanius keeps those near him in line.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Edit: Also the NCR has access to the technology in Vault City, nothing to sneeze at.

Thats wierd, since the LW has access to about 5 Vaults, and the Vault-Tec HQ...

Originally posted by Nephthys
Population: Though a census has been conducted, we do not have access to the figures. NCR is believed to have many tens of thousands of people.

- Vault City travel log.

And this was as of Fallout 2, nearly 100 years before New Vagas. no expression

Edit: And this:

How big is NCR?
Founded eighty years ago, the NCR is now comprised of the states of Shady, Los Angeles, Maxson, Hub, and Dayglow. Approximately 700,000 citizens are pleased to call NCR home.

- NCR History Disk. Also in Fallout 2.

So.... our saying that they are going to bring the entire NCR Population down to the Mojave to fight off the CWBOS? That they are all going to get Veteran Ranger training? or the shitty 2 week trooper training and shitty gear?

Because I garuntee Gunney's training outdoes Vet Ranger training by a few notches.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Lets see... The 4 you mention plus, Lets say Canterbury Commons and it's caravans,

6 people.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Big Town,

10 people

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Little lamplight (this one is a bit of a stretch...)

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111005232859/sonicfanon/images/0/07/Edgeworth-shrug.gif

I think not.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Republic Of Dave,

9 people.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Tenpenny Tower,

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111005232859/sonicfanon/images/0/07/Edgeworth-shrug.gif

You mean the old, rich assholes who never want to leave their tower? Yes, clearly they can be recruited.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Temple Of the Union/Lincholn Monument,

6 people.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Girdirshade,

no expression

2 people.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Underworld,

I'll give you that one. Though iirc the Brotherhood doesnn't recruit ghouls. Still only 20ish people.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Paradise Falls (Thats a big stretch).

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111005232859/sonicfanon/images/0/07/Edgeworth-shrug.gif

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Playing the cards right, or even if one eradicates a population (Such as with Paradise Falls) That can still be reused and re-fortified. Now, since Lyons conscripts, and since P Purity is such a big drawcard, the population pool is going to be much larger than what the initial game would suggest. Rumors will spread out from the capital and attract populations from the wider areas as well, the search for clean drinking water on the East Coast in it's entirety is a much more challenging affair considering how much harder it was hit by the bombs.

The fortifications are irrelevent since your OP said that it was the Brotherhood attacking. Big deal, Hoover Dam purifies water as well. Either that or by New Vagas Project Purity has somehow purified all of America. And I think it would be disarsterous for them to get a flood of volunteers anyway since Capital Wasteland is near barren and they have no way of producing food other than raiding supermarkets. They lack the farms the NCR has. The Brotherhood just can't sustain much of an army. Not even mentioning that I doubt they have 50+ sets of extra Power Armor.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Not take over, draw from. They already have a rapport with most settlements already, and make regular deliveries even to Evergreen mills, a large Raider compound. the major thing is that the Muties have receded, and the Enclave are now gone, they have a firm foothold, they control the biggest drawcard since the GECK with Project Purity, and they are no longer being bled white by the constant fighting with Mutants.

Why aren't they fighting mutants anymore? And you're absolutely right they'll 'draw' from those places. Their recruitment rating won't be that high. If the Capital Wasteland is really as safe as you make it sound, why bother joining the Brotherhood?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The NCR has salvaged unpowered T-45b power armor... They are outmatched by far man to man.

No, thats only what we see in the game in Vagas. In the motherland they have actual Power Armor. Vault City has access to alot of Pre-War tech, Power Armor included.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
So.... our saying that they are going to bring the entire NCR Population down to the Mojave to fight off the CWBOS? That they are all going to get Veteran Ranger training? or the shitty 2 week trooper training and shitty gear?

Because I garuntee Gunney's training outdoes Vet Ranger training by a few notches.

You made the thread the NCR vs the ECBOS, don't blame me if you didn't think about how massive the NCR really is. If they deploy even 1% of the numbers they had 100 years ago they'll still outnumber the Brotherhood by well over 50-1. And LOL! Its directly stated in the game that Lyons recruits have a shockingly bad survival rating.

Also bullshit on Gunneys training being superior to Vetern Ranger training. Vet Rangers are the best of the best, anfd more than a match for a Brotherhood member in Power Armor.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Not the Bridge one. excellent



alot of the tech in Zeta is more esoteric. The average weapon is a good 1.5 to 2 times more powerful than the equivelant earthly energy weapon.

Zeta has it's own teleportation tech as well, and the ability to "beam" objects from the surface to the cargo hold. Wait.... I smell a big Big MT steal grab of tech! duryes



That is an entirely debatable subject in and of itself. The sheer perk battery the LW posesses over the Courier is immense.



The legion are also far more technologically regressed than the NCR or the Brotherhood... They have men, and they have resources, but their methodology is much more simplistic than that of the Brotherhood. It's not the same kind of matchup as what happened with the Mojave Brotherhood, the CWBOS are a whole different ballgame than even Lost Hills would be.

iirc, the deathray ceased working once you blew up the other mothership.

Given that it was constructed with tech at Big MT, holorifles could likely be mass produced with the matter manipulation tech and the NCR's resources, and I don't think I need to tell you the holorifle is superior to all the Zeta weaponry save the alien blaster.

Well, considering that most of the labs and such are either located underground or in fortified buildings, and that they would have to find Big MT first, I sincerely doubt that's a plausible strategy.

Not really. Though the Lone Wanderer can get 5 more perks then the Courier, the Courier has better stats, and generally much better equipment. Plus, considering the ending of The Lonesome Road, which is by far and away a more hostile environment then anything in Fallout 3, I think it just goes to show just how much of a BAMF The Courier is.

Their soldiers are also noticeably super human, and make great use of fear/ psychological warfare tactics, sabotage, lack of morality, and such evens out the NCR's superior tech.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by Nephthys
You mean the old, rich assholes who never want to leave their tower? Yes, clearly they can be recruited.

And the mercenary troops that protect them?

That reminds me, Reily's rangers, Outcast reintegration, and leftover Talons are also options.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'll give you that one. Though iirc the Brotherhood doesnn't recruit ghouls. Still only 20ish people.

Owen is more open-minded than those BOS from the west. Oh, and then there's the case with Roy Phillips, if he takes over Tenenny Tower too...

Originally posted by Nephthys
The fortifications are irrelevent since your OP said that it was the Brotherhood attacking. Big deal, Hoover Dam purifies water as well. Either that or by New Vagas Project Purity has somehow purified all of America. And I think it would be disarsterous for them to get a flood of volunteers anyway since Capital Wasteland is near barren and they have no way of producing food other than raiding supermarkets. They lack the farms the NCR has. The Brotherhood just can't sustain much of an army. Not even mentioning that I doubt they have 50+ sets of extra Power Armor.

What is the first action before engaging an act of war Neph? Answer = the preperation of defences against enemy retaliation.

You made this about land size earlier. I countered, the CW is not as big as the equivelant of 2 to 3 states worth of land, but the CW BOS know it well.

The Dam does NOT purify water, at all. I would need a source for that, since Hoover is a hydroelectric dam that has nothing to do with water purification.

It was stated that the BOS found a cache of Power Armors beneath the Pentagon that would last indefinitely. That shoots that down.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why aren't they fighting mutants anymore? And you're absolutely right they'll 'draw' from those places. Their recruitment rating won't be that high. If the Capital Wasteland is really as safe as you make it sound, why bother joining the Brotherhood?

The muties are receding because by the time of Broken Steel, they are out of FEV and cannot continue to replenish their numbers as they once did. That and the Brotherhood now have access to far better tech, recources and supplies due to Adams being captured.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, thats only what we see in the game in Vagas. In the motherland they have actual Power Armor. Vault City has access to alot of Pre-War tech, Power Armor included.

It was stated that they can't produce new ones, hence why they salvage from dead Paladins. They don't have the schematics for it, the Brotherhood took them (along with a large bunch of other weapons and equipment schematics) from Mariposa before they left it for Lost Hills.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You made the thread the NCR vs the ECBOS, don't blame me if you didn't think about how massive the NCR really is. If they deploy even 1% of the numbers they had 100 years ago they'll still outnumber the Brotherhood by well over 50-1. And LOL! Its directly stated in the game that Lyons recruits have a shockingly bad survival rating.

That was due to the mutants bleeding them dry, thats not a problem now, plus their tech has been improved due to captured Enclave resources.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also bullshit on Gunneys training being superior to Vetern Ranger training. Vet Rangers are the best of the best, and more than a match for a Brotherhood member in Power Armor.

Heheheheh, Proof?

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oh, and then there's the case with Roy Phillips, if he takes over Tenenny Tower too...

He kills Daring Dashwood. The Brotherhood would never accept an individual who committed such a crime against humanity. uhuh

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
He kills Daring Dashwood. The Brotherhood would never accept an individual who committed such a crime against humanity. uhuh

You mean the same Daring Dashwood that was solely responsible for the enslavement of Rockopolis? dgrin

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You mean the same Daring Dashwood that was solely responsible for the enslavement of Rockopolis? dgrin

It was an honest mistake. uhuh

And reply to my points on the other page. uhuh

Nephthys
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Heheheheh, Proof?

1N3sEfokID0&feature=relmfu

OWNED!

Though on a more mature but still correct page, the Rangers just are the superiorly trained force. The Brotherhood relies on their Power Armor while the Rangers are just balls to the walls tough as nails and the best trained force we've seen so far in Fallout. These guys scare the shit out of the Legion for ****s sake.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
iirc, the deathray ceased working once you blew up the other mothership.

no, you just don't have a reason to keep using it. The deathray not firing is game restriction. There was nothing stated anywhere I can find about the 2nd Death Ray no longer functioning (the one fired from the bridge)

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Given that it was constructed with tech at Big MT, holorifles could likely be mass produced with the matter manipulation tech and the NCR's resources, and I don't think I need to tell you the holorifle is superior to all the Zeta weaponry save the alien blaster.

Uhm, Elijah built the Holorifle, and gave the sole working model to the Courier, whom had to upgrade it 3 times in order for it to come anywhere close to the levels your talking about. I don't remember finding anything reguarding Holorifles being produced at Big Mt, but I know Elijah found the tech to build one there...

That said, doesn't NCR have a really big bias for ballistic weapons as a default anyway?

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Well, considering that most of the labs and such are either located underground or in fortified buildings, and that they would have to find Big MT first, I sincerely doubt that's a plausible strategy.

Unless they are packing a full energy dome like the commonwealth, I doubt that. They teleported a safe from underground, and a footlocker from a fortified structure.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Not really. Though the Lone Wanderer can get 5 more perks then the Courier, the Courier has better stats, and generally much better equipment. Plus, considering the ending of The Lonesome Road, which is by far and away a more hostile environment then anything in Fallout 3, I think it just goes to show just how much of a BAMF The Courier is.

Better stats? And better equipment only due to the game progression, thats like me saying the equipment in Oblivion is better than that in Morrowind. and we both know thats false.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Their soldiers are also noticeably super human, and make great use of fear/ psychological warfare tactics, sabotage, lack of morality, and such evens out the NCR's superior tech.

They are physically stronger than NCR men, but not superhumanly so.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
It was an honest mistake. uhuh

He was seduced by the dark side! jugg666happy

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
And reply to my points on the other page. uhuh

Relax, I didn't even see your ninja post till now! ninjafox

Originally posted by Nephthys
1N3sEfokID0&feature=relmfu

OWNED!

Oh wow, game stats! w00tshnone

Originally posted by Nephthys
Though on a more mature but still correct page, the Rangers just are the superiorly trained force. The Brotherhood relies on their Power Armor while the Rangers are just balls to the walls tough as nails and the best trained force we've seen so far in Fallout. These guys scare the shit out of the Legion for ****s sake.

You have proof that ranger Training is superior to Britherhood training I assume? because the brotherhood doesn't just use power armors... I'm pretty sure Recon Armor is also widely used.

And scare the shit out of the Legion? Are you serious? raise_eyebrow

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
no, you just don't have a reason to keep using it. The deathray not firing is game restriction. There was nothing stated anywhere I can find about the 2nd Death Ray no longer functioning (the one fired from the bridge)



Uhm, Elijah built the Holorifle, and gave the sole working model to the Courier, whom had to upgrade it 3 times in order for it to come anywhere close to the levels your talking about. I don't remember finding anything reguarding Holorifles being produced at Big Mt, but I know Elijah found the tech to build one there...

That said, doesn't NCR have a really big bias for ballistic weapons as a default anyway?



Unless they are packing a full energy dome like the commonwealth, I doubt that. They teleported a safe from underground, and a footlocker from a fortified structure.



Better stats? And better equipment only due to the game progression, thats like me saying the equipment in Oblivion is better than that in Morrowind. and we both know thats false.



They are physically stronger than NCR men, but not superhumanly so.



He was seduced by the dark side! jugg666happy

I thought it was because they sustained heavy damage from the other ship.

Given that The Think Tank is the greatest collection of scientific minds in the Fallout verse, and The Courier already has a working prototype, it would only make sense, given the NCR's resources and the one year of prep, that Big MT could reproduce the holorifle with its matter manipulation tech. Same goes for pretty much most of the technology The Courier has. Including the superior Advanced Enclave Power Armor.

I've never really come across the NCR having any sort of bias, but I sincerely doubt the NCR would turn down the offer for a cheaply produced, highly advanced weapon that makes their current guns look like peashooters.

Kay. Though, they would still have to actually find the Big MT facilities, and they would have to now what they're looking for. The matter manipulation tech, for example, looks like vending machines. Though, given just how advanced Big MT is, it would certainly not be out of the question to create an energy shield, especially if it has access to the NCR's resources.

The Courier has the potential to develop his skills further, not counting skill books and all that. And the equipment the Courier has is not so much better, as it is more advanced. Like the Advanced Enclave Power Armor, the Holorifle, ect.

The soldiers from Caesar's Legion are capable of fighting and killing Super Mutants and armored Brotherhood members in combat. I would believe so.

Lies, Daring Dashwood is a paragon of good. uhuh

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I thought it was because they sustained heavy damage from the other ship.

I never heard that anywhere... Plus, they had shields. If the LW played it right, he could defeat the other ship with no damage whatsoever.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Given that The Think Tank is the greatest collection of scientific minds in the Fallout verse, and The Courier already has a working prototype, it would only make sense, given the NCR's resources and the one year of prep, that Big MT could reproduce the holorifle with its matter manipulation tech. Same goes for pretty much most of the technology The Courier has. Including the superior Advanced Enclave Power Armor.

They'd still need energy weapons training on par with Gunney's training to even come close to having that kind of effectiveness. You can't develop a training regiment, prototype and test a new energy weapon, produce and deploy them to an entire army the size of NCR's in one year, especially if they prove as incompetent with frontier logistics as they did against the Legion.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I've never really come across the NCR having any sort of bias, but I sincerely doubt the NCR would turn down the offer for a cheaply produced, highly advanced weapon that makes their current guns look like peashooters.

They do, especially in New Vegas. Even against the Mojave BOS, they essentially used a human wave to overcome them rather than equip their forces with Pulse weapons they had back in FO2. Instead they sent their soldiers into a meat grinder.

That said, there is a difference bitween saying no to advanced weapons, and being able to train and equip their entire front line with them, at the very best you could say one soldier per squad would have an energy weapon.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Kay. Though, they would still have to actually find the Big MT facilities, and they would have to now what they're looking for. The matter manipulation tech, for example, looks like vending machines. Though, given just how advanced Big MT is, it would certainly not be out of the question to create an energy shield, especially if it has access to the NCR's resources.

They are advanced, ut not as advanced as the Commonwealth, plus Big Mt has had it's own intercene warfare they have had to get over. besides, the Sierra Madre is another source of those vending machines and holograms. and spotting that cloud from orbit would not be hard.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
The Courier has the potential to develop his skills further, not counting skill books and all that. And the equipment the Courier has is not so much better, as it is more advanced. Like the Advanced Enclave Power Armor, the Holorifle, ect.

Compared to Advanced Mk2 Enclave Power Armor, Mk2 Tesla Armor and Hellfire PAs? And Firelance, plus unlimited Atomisers, Destabilisers and Drone Cannons/reprogrammed Drones?

Their skills are exacly the same, with the Courier getting Survival, and the Lone Wanderer having sparate skills for Big & Small Guns. Besides, some of the LW's perks are much much better.

While we are on the subject of tech, lets cut the red tape here. In 5 years with Enclave tech and resources, The Pitt and Zeta's Epoxy, repairing Prime would take only a few months, not years, same with the Mission Disabled Base Crawler at Adams. NCR has nothing that could stand against those, short of perhaps helios One, and that is if the Courier chose to activate it and NOT fry the NCR with it. (personally I would rather have redirected power in an even distribution to help unlock "For Auld Lang Syne", and this gives NCR Remnant Support)

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
The soldiers from Caesar's Legion are capable of fighting and killing Super Mutants and armored Brotherhood members in combat. I would believe so.

Not consistently though, and err, the V87 mutants are stated to be stronger than the Mariposa ones. especially when we dive into Overlord and Behemoth territory.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Lies, Daring Dashwood is a paragon of good. uhuh

Just like Maxwel Smart eh? sneer

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I never heard that anywhere... Plus, they had shields. If the LW played it right, he could defeat the other ship with no damage whatsoever.



They'd still need energy weapons training on par with Gunney's training to even come close to having that kind of effectiveness. You can't develop a training regiment, prototype and test a new energy weapon, produce and deploy them to an entire army the size of NCR's in one year, especially if they prove as incompetent with frontier logistics as they did against the Legion.



They do, especially in New Vegas. Even against the Mojave BOS, they essentially used a human wave to overcome them rather than equip their forces with Pulse weapons they had back in FO2. Instead they sent their soldiers into a meat grinder.

That said, there is a difference bitween saying no to advanced weapons, and being able to train and equip their entire front line with them, at the very best you could say one soldier per squad would have an energy weapon.



They are advanced, ut not as advanced as the Commonwealth, plus Big Mt has had it's own intercene warfare they have had to get over. besides, the Sierra Madre is another source of those vending machines and holograms. and spotting that cloud from orbit would not be hard.



Compared to Advanced Mk2 Enclave Power Armor, Mk2 Tesla Armor and Hellfire PAs? And Firelance, plus unlimited Atomisers, Destabilisers and Drone Cannons/reprogrammed Drones?

Their skills are exacly the same, with the Courier getting Survival, and the Lone Wanderer having sparate skills for Big & Small Guns. Besides, some of the LW's perks are much much better.

While we are on the subject of tech, lets cut the red tape here. In 5 years with Enclave tech and resources, The Pitt and Zeta's Epoxy, repairing Prime would take only a few months, not years, same with the Mission Disabled Base Crawler at Adams. NCR has nothing that could stand against those, short of perhaps helios One, and that is if the Courier chose to activate it and NOT fry the NCR with it. (personally I would rather have redirected power in an even distribution to help unlock "For Auld Lang Syne", and this gives NCR Remnant Support)



Not consistently though, and err, the V87 mutants are stated to be stronger than the Mariposa ones. especially when we dive into Overlord and Behemoth territory.



Just like Maxwel Smart eh? sneer

Kay. But being the idealist good guys they are, the Brotherhood would never use blow up an entire nation anyway. biscuits

The NCR could just hire the Hidden Valley Brotherhood to help train NCR soldiers for that, in exchange for tech. 131

I wasn't aware that the pulse guns could be produced for virtually nothing. But, asides from that, the NCR does have good leaders, like Hanlon.

Well, equipping them is no problem, since with the vending machines, the NCR could easily supply all their soldiers, but, yeah, it probably would make more sense that a smaller amount of soldiers be outfitted.

I wasn't aware the Commonwealth possessed matter manipulation technology, or remote teleportation. And the Sierra Madre is not an option. Asides from the fact the Brotherhood would still have to know exactly how the NCR is creating its supplies, since they're not going to guess that they're vending machines, the ones in the Sierra Madre are locked to the coins you find there, whereas The Think Tank, being the creators, could easily modify their own to take much more common material.

Yes, actually. The Mk2 armor in Fallout 3 is stated to be inferior to the Advanced Power Armor the Enclave had in Fallout 2. Furthermore, when comparing DT, Hellfire Armor is the same as T-51b, suggesting that they are about the same as far as damage protection goes. I don't think I need to tell you that the Advanced Power Armor is superior to the T-51b. Asides from that, yes, common weapons like the LAER rifle in Big MT are generally superior to that you find on Zeta. Firelance is the one factor I can't say for certain the Courier has an advantage over, though the Courier has his own assortment of powerful weaponry, like the Sprtl-Wood 9700, which makes Vengeance look like a joke.

Having a higher level suggests the Courier has more potential, and really? iirc, the perks were relatively the same as in 3, when all the DLC was introduced, except now more varied. And, as far as actual lore goes, the Courier generally seems stronger, like having his body upgraded when going to Big MT, or being so badass that creatures that hunt deathclaws actually avoid him.

Actually, the NCR does, in fact, have a solution to those. The Lonesome Road, as you may well know, is home to a large stockpile of nuclear arms. It is not beyond reason that the Courier, being loyal to the NCR, would alert the military to its presence, and help extract those arms.

biscuits

Though, wasn't the Basecrawler, like, completely destroyed?

Still though, being capable of beating down super mutants is impressive none the less. A single one was capable of scaring the piss out of the Fiends to the point they didn't like attacking a settlement.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Kay. But being the idealist good guys they are, the Brotherhood would never use blow up an entire nation anyway. biscuits

Nobody said they had to use full powered shots... 131

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
The NCR could just hire the Hidden Valley Brotherhood to help train NCR soldiers for that, in exchange for tech. 131

You really think the Hidden Valley Chapter would side with the NCR over their own? huhu

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I wasn't aware that the pulse guns could be produced for virtually nothing. But, asides from that, the NCR does have good leaders, like Hanlon.

No, but they had the tech, they had access, and they had the funds, and yet still they didn't deploy them even though they knew they where up against the Brotherhood, and experienced against the Brotherhood as Colonel Moore was stated to be, should have known better.

Whom get overwritten by absolute bungholes like General Oliver and President Kimbal, Cheif Hanlon is outranked.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Well, equipping them is no problem, since with the vending machines, the NCR could easily supply all their soldiers, but, yeah, it probably would make more sense that a smaller amount of soldiers be outfitted.

I was reffering to actual propper deployment of the weapons, not just physical production.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I wasn't aware the Commonwealth possessed matter manipulation technology, or remote teleportation. And the Sierra Madre is not an option. Asides from the fact the Brotherhood would still have to know exactly how the NCR is creating its supplies, since they're not going to guess that they're vending machines, the ones in the Sierra Madre are locked to the coins you find there, whereas The Think Tank, being the creators, could easily modify their own to take much more common material.

Scouting and infiltration works well in that case. And the Sierra Madre would still be an option, as there are many of the machines there. Reverse engineering is what the Brotherhood does, and they do it well.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Yes, actually. The Mk2 armor in Fallout 3 is stated to be inferior to the Advanced Power Armor the Enclave had in Fallout 2.

Actually, APAMKII has DR, not DT, which uses an entirely different formula of damage resistance. However, in fluff, APAMKII is the superior model by far. And since Game Restriction is on the table, I'll side with the fluff.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Furthermore, when comparing DT, Hellfire Armor is the same as T-51b, suggesting that they are about the same as far as damage protection goes. I don't think I need to tell you that the Advanced Power Armor is superior to the T-51b.

Again, fluff points to a different conclusion, And if I may add, the damage resistance of T-51B was due to it's extreme rarity on FO3, whereas it's damage threshold drops by half that in FONV. I took that as a game statistic anomaly, which is another reason to use fluff instead of gaming stats.

That said...



ALL Enclave Power Armor is superior to T-51b canonically. If you really want to go statistics for DT, the APAMKII that you can console cheat to get in NV is actually superior to the T-51b in the game by having a DT of 32, and that is 7 points better than T-51b and 2 better than Remnants PA. This fact pretty much wins the point for me. hmph

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Asides from that, yes, common weapons like the LAER rifle in Big MT are generally superior to that you find on Zeta. Firelance is the one factor I can't say for certain the Courier has an advantage over, though the Courier has his own assortment of powerful weaponry, like the Sprtl-Wood 9700, which makes Vengeance look like a joke.

The LAER does equal damage to the Disintegrator, and it deteriorates almost twice as fast per shot. and the Desintegrator is common on Zeta, the LW can conceivably collect up to 200 of them alone...

The Sprtl-Wood is as unique as the Firelance...

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Having a higher level suggests the Courier has more potential, and really? iirc, the perks were relatively the same as in 3, when all the DLC was introduced, except now more varied. And, as far as actual lore goes, the Courier generally seems stronger, like having his body upgraded when going to Big MT, or being so badass that creatures that hunt deathclaws actually avoid him.

A standard perk makes the LW a friggin Cyborg... 313_rage

And the Almost Perfect perk combined with the bobble heads makes him beyond the Courier stat wise.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Actually, the NCR does, in fact, have a solution to those. The Lonesome Road, as you may well know, is home to a large stockpile of nuclear arms. It is not beyond reason that the Courier, being loyal to the NCR, would alert the military to its presence, and help extract those arms.

You mean the same nukes that you either launch at NCR,The legions home bases, or sabotage altogether?

Besides, The Satcomm Aray has those as well, and IIRC one of the forts (Probably Constantine) has a sizable arsenal of nukes as well...

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Though, wasn't the Basecrawler, like, completely destroyed?

No, if you look at the wreckage, the actual crawler is still intact, only the sat uplink on top was wiped out, and that can be rebuilt.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Still though, being capable of beating down super mutants is impressive none the less. A single one was capable of scaring the piss out of the Fiends to the point they didn't like attacking a settlement.

And yet the CW Brotherhood where facing off the stronger variety and where fighting pretty evenly.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Nobody said they had to use full powered shots... 131



You really think the Hidden Valley Chapter would side with the NCR over their own? huhu



No, but they had the tech, they had access, and they had the funds, and yet still they didn't deploy them even though they knew they where up against the Brotherhood, and experienced against the Brotherhood as Colonel Moore was stated to be, should have known better.

Whom get overwritten by absolute bungholes like General Oliver and President Kimbal, Cheif Hanlon is outranked.



I was reffering to actual propper deployment of the weapons, not just physical production.



Scouting and infiltration works well in that case. And the Sierra Madre would still be an option, as there are many of the machines there. Reverse engineering is what the Brotherhood does, and they do it well.



Actually, APAMKII has DR, not DT, which uses an entirely different formula of damage resistance. However, in fluff, APAMKII is the superior model by far. And since Game Restriction is on the table, I'll side with the fluff.



Again, fluff points to a different conclusion, And if I may add, the damage resistance of T-51B was due to it's extreme rarity on FO3, whereas it's damage threshold drops by half that in FONV. I took that as a game statistic anomaly, which is another reason to use fluff instead of gaming stats.

That said...



ALL Enclave Power Armor is superior to T-51b canonically. If you really want to go statistics for DT, the APAMKII that you can console cheat to get in NV is actually superior to the T-51b in the game by having a DT of 32, and that is 7 points better than T-51b and 2 better than Remnants PA. This fact pretty much wins the point for me. hmph



The LAER does equal damage to the Disintegrator, and it deteriorates almost twice as fast per shot. and the Desintegrator is common on Zeta, the LW can conceivably collect up to 200 of them alone...

The Sprtl-Wood is as unique as the Firelance...



A standard perk makes the LW a friggin Cyborg... 313_rage

And the Almost Perfect perk combined with the bobble heads makes him beyond the Courier stat wise.



You mean the same nukes that you either launch at NCR,The legions home bases, or sabotage altogether?

Besides, The Satcomm Aray has those as well, and IIRC one of the forts (Probably Constantine) has a sizable arsenal of nukes as well...



No, if you look at the wreckage, the actual crawler is still intact, only the sat uplink on top was wiped out, and that can be rebuilt.



And yet the CW Brotherhood where facing off the stronger variety and where fighting pretty evenly.

The Brotherhood doesn't know how to properly work it though anyway.

Yes, considering that's the reason why the Outcasts shoot the CW Brotherhood on site, and if the Hidden Valley Chapter were to betray the NCR, they would be completely annihilated.

Except now they have that OMA who won them New Vegas that isn't a complete retard. ermmvin
And Oliver isn't so much as incompetent as he is a massive douchebag. And sounds like a 12 year old.

Well, they can give the things out like candy, since they will never run out of supplies. Since the vending machines mean that the NCR can supply itself with food, armor, ammunition, guns, ect. indefinitely. So, I doubt there would be much trouble deploying them.

Lol. Any scouts would that come even close to Big MT would be terminated by dem robo-scorpions. With extreme prejudice. And, you would have to prove the Brotherhood is intelligent and capable enough to reverse engineer ****ing matter manipulation tech. Though they'd still have to guess the vending machines are what's supplying the NCR.

That seems weird, but okie dokie.

The NCR just captures suits off Brotherhood members and sends them to the Think Tank to reverse engineer and improve upon. 131

They both have the same damage, but the LAER has better DPS. And with matter manipulation tech, the LAER could be mass-produced for relatively nothing.

Well, given that it's sold by the Van-Graffs, that would imply there's more then one. Regardless though, it's a gun that still gives The Courier an edge.

The Courier's upgrades are actually detailed though. uhuh
And what the hell kind of Mary Sue perk is that?

Ulysses explains that the Lonesome Road is saturated with nuclear weapons, beyond the ones he planned to launch at wherever. Both actual atomic weapons, and the smaller ones that can be detonated with a laser.

And weren't the SATCOM missiles used by the LW already? I know there was certainly nothing implied in Fallout 3 that suggests it has an arsenal of actual city-busting missiles similar to that in the Lonesome Road.

I'd have to see scans, since I haven't played Fallout 3 in years, though I do plan to play it again soon. mmm

Yeah, but the Brotherhood members have the advantage of wearing armor and having superior weaponry lol. The Legion isn't so fortunate.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
The Brotherhood doesn't know how to properly work it though anyway.

5 years of prep says otherwise, if Somah, Tecorien , and the LW could get the thing working in 5 minutes, then the Brotherhood can shoot a 1 hole in a coin with 5 years worth of time to play with it.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Yes, considering that's the reason why the Outcasts shoot the CW Brotherhood on site, and if the Hidden Valley Chapter were to betray the NCR, they would be completely annihilated.

Outcast reintegration is a high possability since post Broken Steel, Lyons pretty much completed the Western Brotherhood's objective. And Lyons wasn't declared an enemy by the council, he was still recognized as the head of that chapter. The only thing they did was determine that of he was going to pursue his own objectives, he would do so alone. Now, he has access to a tech boom not seen by any chapter since Mariposa, and you REALY think the Hidden Valley chapter will turn down Lyons in their state?

Only if they comitted the betrayal before Lyons arrives.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Except now they have that OMA who won them New Vegas that isn't a complete retard. ermmvin
And Oliver isn't so much as incompetent as he is a massive douchebag. And sounds like a 12 year old.

Except that the CWBOS have their own OMA whom is every bit of a BAMF and is hax.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Well, they can give the things out like candy, since they will never run out of supplies. Since the vending machines mean that the NCR can supply itself with food, armor, ammunition, guns, ect. indefinitely. So, I doubt there would be much trouble deploying them.

Deployment requires that every soldier accesses that machine, which takes time. And on top of this, the NCR loves their paperwork. Afterall, with such a resource, supplies would get stolen or go missing by the truckload and end up in bad hands if it wasn't monitored correctly.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Lol. Any scouts would that come even close to Big MT would be terminated by dem robo-scorpions. With extreme prejudice. And, you would have to prove the Brotherhood is intelligent and capable enough to reverse engineer ****ing matter manipulation tech. Though they'd still have to guess the vending machines are what's supplying the NCR.

Right, because the Courier, Ulysess, Christine and Elijah where terminated with extreme prejudice, and 2 of them are Brotherhood trained, amirite? superm

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
The NCR just captures suits off Brotherhood members and sends them to the Think Tank to reverse engineer and improve upon. 131

Heh, they don't have the Duraframe data. Plus, they don't have Zeta tech. bmhm

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
They both have the same damage, but the LAER has better DPS. And with matter manipulation tech, the LAER could be mass-produced for relatively nothing.

The LAER breaks twice as fast, and anyone with the Xenotech Expert perk (Which is stupidly simple to obtain BTW) increases their damage by 20%, And Zeta replicates the weapons as well.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Well, given that it's sold by the Van-Graffs, that would imply there's more then one. Regardless though, it's a gun that still gives The Courier an edge.

It is a unique GRA addon... And against Firelance's impossibly high critical chance, the LW pulverises even behemoths in 1 to 2 shots with the thing.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
The Courier's upgrades are actually detailed though. uhuh
And what the hell kind of Mary Sue perk is that?

The kind that got added in Broken Steel. it is hax, but it is well beyond the Courier. iorilmao

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Ulysses explains that the Lonesome Road is saturated with nuclear weapons, beyond the ones he planned to launch at wherever. Both actual atomic weapons, and the smaller ones that can be detonated with a laser.

You then need to prove that the NCR can construct and launch those weapons... Because from what I remember of LR, it only had the warheads, not a whole missile. And didn't the Courier sabotage the launch systems entirely?

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
And weren't the SATCOM missiles used by the LW already? I know there was certainly nothing implied in Fallout 3 that suggests it has an arsenal of actual city-busting missiles similar to that in the Lonesome Road.

The Bradley Hercules was used twice, it still has at least 2 more salvos. It can wipe out the Citadel in a way only a full scale Megaton Nuke could match. and te SATCOM Array is independet of the Bradley Hercules.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I'd have to see scans, since I haven't played Fallout 3 in years, though I do plan to play it again soon. mmm

I don't have a screenshot of it. But I did do some investigating around it after the blasts, and the superstructure is still in ne peice.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Yeah, but the Brotherhood members have the advantage of wearing armor and having superior weaponry lol. The Legion isn't so fortunate.

The legion would fall against V87 Super Muties anyways. Overlords are incredibly difficult to deal with, especially their "Ignore DR Tribeam Laser Rifle!" crap!

FinalAnswer
I'm gonna hold off on replying to you until after I replay Fallout 3 soon, just so I can have a better understanding of stuff.

Darkstorm Zero
Heh, Ironically enough, I'm doing the same. :P

LiNaK37
The NCR would win, no doubt.

The CW Brotherhood have power armor training and Liberty Prime as an advantage, and that's about it.

The NCR would have an ENORMOUS numbers advantage. Really just ridiculously big. Not to mention the potential that they would have tech from Big MT which beats out anything in Fallout 3 (Except maybe for the Mothership Zeta stuff, but that's not canon so it doesn't count).

Snafu the Great
The major disadvantage the NCR has is its senior staff. Colonel Hsu is the reasonable member of the bunch, as is Lt. Gorobets of First Recon and Ambassador Crocker. Ranger Hanlon, though his intentions are honorable, are hindering the NCR's efforts in the Mojave. Colonel Moore has a long standing grudge with the BoS for ending her career as a frontline soldier. General Oliver is pretty much an inept officer, and Hanlon calls him out on it. Any general worth his stars knows that it is better to harass the enemy by knocking down their numbers. Oliver wants to take the Legion out in one big battle just to cement his legacy, not caring that the death toll will be high. Caesar has the right idea when it comes to harassing the enemy, but he could not het the job done. You thin out the enemy's numbers, that makes them easier to fight.

FinalAnswer
Hanlon is only a hindrance because he's fed up with the war of attrition the NCR's been waging, and he can still be convinced to stop what he's doing and do his job right.

TacDavey
The NCR couldn't take New Vegas without the Courier's help, and all it had to defend itself was some securitrons who weren't even at full power and some gangster families, if memory serves. What can they hope to do against Liberty Prime? It took an orbital bombardment to bring it down. And don't they have the huge mobile fortress now as well along with all it's tech? I haven't played Big MT, but is there anything in there that can stop Liberty Prime or the Mobile Fortress? Also, does the NCR have it? Because if the courier has it I don't think it counts, unless the Courier and Lone Wanderer are active players in the fight.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by TacDavey
The NCR couldn't take New Vegas without the Courier's help, and all it had to defend itself was some securitrons who weren't even at full power and some gangster families, if memory serves. What can they hope to do against Liberty Prime? It took an orbital bombardment to bring it down. And don't they have the huge mobile fortress now as well along with all it's tech? I haven't played Big MT, but is there anything in there that can stop Liberty Prime or the Mobile Fortress? Also, does the NCR have it? Because if the courier has it I don't think it counts, unless the Courier and Lone Wanderer are active players in the fight.

NCR was unable to take New Vegas due to be unwilling to fight a war with both Caesar's Legion and Mr. House while having wrecked supply lines.

The Mobile Fortress was blown up.

NCR can be supplied with nuclear warheads from the Great Divide, plus I am moderately certain the same group that created matter manipulation tech could wreak Prime.

If neither the LW or Courier and their assets are involved then lol, the BoS really has no argument. They simply would not be able to fight a self-sufficient nation with a population going into the hundreds of thousands.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by LiNaK37
The NCR would win, no doubt.

Pfft.. Yeah ok... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by LiNaK37
The CW Brotherhood have power armor training and Liberty Prime as an advantage, and that's about it.

They have Enclave tech + production, they have Zetatech. And they have the Pitt's production. Excellent deduction...

Originally posted by LiNaK37
The NCR would have an ENORMOUS numbers advantage. Really just ridiculously big. Not to mention the potential that they would have tech from Big MT which beats out anything in Fallout 3 (Except maybe for the Mothership Zeta stuff, but that's not canon so it doesn't count).

No, Zeta does count. just because you don't like it, does not mean it doesn't count.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
NCR was unable to take New Vegas due to be unwilling to fight a war with both Caesar's Legion and Mr. House while having wrecked supply lines.

And you think they will recover from that in 2 years, when they couldn't do it in 4 years post the 1st battle of Hoover?

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
The Mobile Fortress was blown up.

No, it was disabled, as in mission killed, not destroyed...

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
NCR can be supplied with nuclear warheads from the Great Divide, plus I am moderately certain the same group that created matter manipulation tech could wreak Prime.

Yeah, ok.... Nuclear warheads with no triggers are as useful as huge paperweights. The same warheads the Courier either already used, or sabotaged is not an advantage except for nuclear fuel.

And your "certainty" about matter manipulation is suspicion... Considering what was thrown at prime, and what it eventually took to down it, I doubt anything short of Archimedes II would even work.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
If neither the LW or Courier and their assets are involved then lol, the BoS really has no argument. They simply would not be able to fight a self-sufficient nation with a population going into the hundreds of thousands.

But the OP (which I wrote) says otherwise.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And you think they will recover from that in 2 years, when they couldn't do it in 4 years post the 1st battle of Hoover?



No, it was disabled, as in mission killed, not destroyed...



Yeah, ok.... Nuclear warheads with no triggers are as useful as huge paperweights. The same warheads the Courier either already used, or sabotaged is not an advantage except for nuclear fuel.

And your "certainty" about matter manipulation is suspicion... Considering what was thrown at prime, and what it eventually took to down it, I doubt anything short of Archimedes II would even work.



But the OP (which I wrote) says otherwise.

Now that they've sent the Legion running and have complete control over the Mojave, yeah sure, why not?

SauseB1_3yo

Is kaput broski. The best they can hope for is to scavenge some tech from it, that's it.

The entire Great Divide is sitting on stockpiles of nukes, considering it was a complex of military bases.

Look at the size of the explosion I just posted. The NCR could honestly probably come up with enough ordnance to disable Prime on their own, let alone resorting to nukes or Archimedes.

I know lol, just pointing out that without the player characters, the fight wouldn't really be as arguable.

Or as fun. biscuits

Nephthys
Boone solos.

FinalAnswer
^ This guy girl knows what's up.

Nephthys
(hehehehe)

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Now that they've sent the Legion running and have complete control over the Mojave, yeah sure, why not?

Because they had control over the vast majority of the mojave for 5 years and yet it was still pretty much logistically retarded because of their own politics and beurocratic red tape.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
SauseB1_3yo

Is kaput broski. The best they can hope for is to scavenge some tech from it, that's it.

The entire Great Divide is sitting on stockpiles of nukes, considering it was a complex of military bases.

Look at the size of the explosion I just posted. The NCR could honestly probably come up with enough ordnance to disable Prime on their own, let alone resorting to nukes or Archimedes.

*Ahem* No. Have you actually returned to the base crawler after that mission? I have. The Crawler's still intact, minus the sat dish on top.

Like I said, scavving it is one option, or a shitload of Epoxy and some elbow grease... Epoxy is hax...

And no, ecause the biggest feat of NCR demolition work is Boulder City, and that could never amount to what downed Prime Now, let me be clear here, the bradley Hercules Sat missiles are around the same effectiveness as the megaton bomb, because it has the same effect on egaton as that bomb does, and it also levels the Citadel in a single strike.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I know lol, just pointing out that without the player characters, the fight wouldn't really be as arguable.

Or as fun. biscuits Hey, without the player characters actions, both factions would be f**ked. laughing

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Because they had control over the vast majority of the mojave for 5 years and yet it was still pretty much logistically retarded because of their own politics and beurocratic red tape.



*Ahem* No. Have you actually returned to the base crawler after that mission? I have. The Crawler's still intact, minus the sat dish on top.

Like I said, scavving it is one option, or a shitload of Epoxy and some elbow grease... Epoxy is hax...

And no, ecause the biggest feat of NCR demolition work is Boulder City, and that could never amount to what downed Prime Now, let me be clear here, the bradley Hercules Sat missiles are around the same effectiveness as the megaton bomb, because it has the same effect on egaton as that bomb does, and it also levels the Citadel in a single strike.

Hey, without the player characters actions, both factions would be f**ked. laughing

They have an entire nation to run outside of the Mojave you know, not to mention things are bogged down due to raiders, Mr. House, the Legion. That's all pretty much gone by now. Plus, with Big MT tech, the NCR no longer needs to worry about a lack of supplies, since they can produce virtually anything they need except for maybe raw food supplies, so they only really need soldiers.

I don't remember, I still haven't played Fallout 3 again yet. haermm
Scavving is a definite possibility though, didn't deny that. I doubt though that they could ever restore the Crawler to complete functionality again.

The NCR could probably supply more explosives then what was used to blow up Boulder City. Even then, the NCR now has the support of the Boomers and their Flying Fortress, as well as Big MT.

Lol, there is no proof that I've ever seen that it would have replicated the megaton bomb, all it had was Megaton as a target, and it can't even be launched against it. It might have leveled the town if it had been targeted, but even then, that does it mean it has the force of a nuke. Nor did Prime withstand as large or prolonged a bombardment as what was done to the Base Crawler or the Citadel.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
They have an entire nation to run outside of the Mojave you know, not to mention things are bogged down due to raiders, Mr. House, the Legion. That's all pretty much gone by now. Plus, with Big MT tech, the NCR no longer needs to worry about a lack of supplies, since they can produce virtually anything they need except for maybe raw food supplies, so they only really need soldiers.

Actually, we don't know the status of raiders and bandits back west. We know they get mostly eradicated post ending if the Fiends are wiped out.

With the exception of actual logistics beyond pure production... Like I said earlier, it takes long assed amounts of time and co-ordination to outfit an entire frontline of NCR, nevermind the entire military.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I don't remember, I still haven't played Fallout 3 again yet. haermm
Scavving is a definite possibility though, didn't deny that. I doubt though that they could ever restore the Crawler to complete functionality again.

Hell, having the thing mobile and armed again is more than enough. One doesn't need the Sat uplink for the Bradley Hercules satelite when you already have friggin Zeta and the SATCOM Array operational...

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
The NCR could probably supply more explosives then what was used to blow up Boulder City. Even then, the NCR now has the support of the Boomers and their Flying Fortress, as well as Big MT.

The Boomers Lfying fortress basically drops Napalm bombs going by the 2nd battle for Hoover. Immolation weapons have already proven ineffective against Prime. And it's not like Prime doesn't ave threat detection capability anyways, he isn't a Protectron.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Lol, there is no proof that I've ever seen that it would have replicated the megaton bomb, all it had was Megaton as a target, and it can't even be launched against it. It might have leveled the town if it had been targeted, but even then, that does it mean it has the force of a nuke. Nor did Prime withstand as large or prolonged a bombardment as what was done to the Base Crawler or the Citadel.

Thats because Prime is a smaller target. However the cross-concussion waves pretty much ****ed him up.

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Actually, we don't know the status of raiders and bandits back west. We know they get mostly eradicated post ending if the Fiends are wiped out.

With the exception of actual logistics beyond pure production... Like I said earlier, it takes long assed amounts of time and co-ordination to outfit an entire frontline of NCR, nevermind the entire military.



Hell, having the thing mobile and armed again is more than enough. One doesn't need the Sat uplink for the Bradley Hercules satelite when you already have friggin Zeta and the SATCOM Array operational...



The Boomers Lfying fortress basically drops Napalm bombs going by the 2nd battle for Hoover. Immolation weapons have already proven ineffective against Prime. And it's not like Prime doesn't ave threat detection capability anyways, he isn't a Protectron.



Thats because Prime is a smaller target. However the cross-concussion waves pretty much ****ed him up.

Well back west in the NCR homeland, I would assume all raider groups of any kind have been destroyed, that's why the Great Khans fled into the Mojave. It's mainly up north and east where the Rangers don't have as big a presence where raiders and guys are still around.

Well it would be Rangers, Officers, and cool guize like 1st Recon that would be getting all the best stuff, with the rest trickling down to the troopers. The amount of time given would probably see most of the best of the best outfitted, with the frontline troopers more or less being relatively the same. Mojave would probably actually see some of the best incoming equipment though, being that it's still newly annexed and is also pretty much the NCR's garrison against any further threats from the Legion, or anything else out east.

I dunno, I haven't played Fallout 3 in like two-three years, so I forget a lot of things. Pretty sure the Wanderer already launched SATCOM's missile though. And Zeta's deathray isn't an option really. The Eastern Brotherhood are basically a bunch of bright-eyed idealists, far and away the most morally good faction in the setting. The use of Zeta's deathray would completely destroy the NCR as a nation, killing hundreds of thousands, if not possibly millions of innocent lives. The Brotherhood would never resort to such a thing. Even besides the lives, it would completely destroy any possible tech they could claim, along with all the territory.

They could just load it with something else, but one of the main points of the Boomers is they have an arsenal that rivals that of the Gun Runners, if not surpassing it. That's a lot of dakka.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Well back west in the NCR homeland, I would assume all raider groups of any kind have been destroyed, that's why the Great Khans fled into the Mojave. It's mainly up north and east where the Rangers don't have as big a presence where raiders and guys are still around.

Giving what Hanlon confirms for us, the raider problem around NCR Homelands is not as secure as you would think. They are the main reason why the Ranger Vets and heavy troopers are no-where to be found in the Mojave area until post Kimbal Assasination attempt. Basically Hanlon's complaint is that the NCR with-holds their best stuff because the brahmin barons are monopolising the troop deployments. That and the Boneyard still has some very serious issues. The Khans are only but one tribe of raiders whose presence is very fluid all the time.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Well it would be Rangers, Officers, and cool guize like 1st Recon that would be getting all the best stuff, with the rest trickling down to the troopers. The amount of time given would probably see most of the best of the best outfitted, with the frontline troopers more or less being relatively the same. Mojave would probably actually see some of the best incoming equipment though, being that it's still newly annexed and is also pretty much the NCR's garrison against any further threats from the Legion, or anything else out east.

Hmm, Given the sheer size of NCR frontier territories, and given that there are other opponents of the size of the Legion may still be out there, I doubt a nation as big as NCR would focus all of their upgraded firepower and logistics squarely in the Mojave. In fact, I beleive that Homeland Defence would again monopolise the modernisation of the NCR squarely withn the capital territories and spread it out from there - starting with their elite units of course...

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
I dunno, I haven't played Fallout 3 in like two-three years, so I forget a lot of things. Pretty sure the Wanderer already launched SATCOM's missile though. And Zeta's deathray isn't an option really. The Eastern Brotherhood are basically a bunch of bright-eyed idealists, far and away the most morally good faction in the setting. The use of Zeta's deathray would completely destroy the NCR as a nation, killing hundreds of thousands, if not possibly millions of innocent lives. The Brotherhood would never resort to such a thing. Even besides the lives, it would completely destroy any possible tech they could claim, along with all the territory.

No, the Bradley Hercules that he used to down the crawler was out of ammo, but the SATCOM array is fully operational and loaded. There is no mission which requires it's depletion at all.

the Zeta Ray = It's basically an ace in the hole really. If all else fails... this will be especially true when Lyons discovers the fate of Lost Hills.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
They could just load it with something else, but one of the main points of the Boomers is they have an arsenal that rivals that of the Gun Runners, if not surpassing it. That's a lot of dakka.

The thing with the Boomers is that they have a shitload of Artillery Howitzers, and their flying fortress which is absolutely useless against vertibirds, nevermind Prime being more than accurate and fast enough to down the Latter should have no trouble lasering holes in the former.

Outside of their artillery and bombing runs, we know they have a load of small arms ballistics and missile launchers, and thats about it.

|XxBoSxX|
I my self as one of the big fans of the brotherhood of steel think that the CWBOS Would win in the supossed battle/war. More tech on there side, amazing leadership, courage, and the will to fight for the people and assure victory. And if anything goes wrong, they would never give up. No matter the difficulty or problem, they will never give up until there last breath. Yes the Ncr have manny units. Manny. And cappable fighters. But the CWBOS are all but more better than the Ncr by lots. Yes they defeated the enclave. Thats because the enclave lived in a period of madness. And they also defeated the MBOS. And thats only because they were out numbered and had lack of leadership and lack of denfeces and defendable areas. Also the fact that the elder that time Elija was crazy mad. And if the CWBOS fought the Ncr, wouldnt the MBOS here of this? And would they not help there fellow brothers. Including the enclave survivors, who were probably mad about defeat of ncr. Would they not want to help in and fight a commom enemy? Plus the outcast who want tech. They would probably join in the fight considering that if the BOS were to lose they go down with them anyway and the fact the CWBOS reached there goals of tech. Combined with liberty prime and other recruits from the CW And DLC worlds. Add all of that up and the BOS would practically be a huge strong and willing army.

Lone Wanderer
The BoS will win here's why

They have access to zeta tech through wanderer.
This includes deathray which would reduce big mt to bigger crater, and before the NCR starts thinking about sending a nuke to the spaceship through the divides nukes the zeta would tank it, why? Because it's also tanked a deathray from another ship using it's shields.

They also have they're own personal shields from the ship have you ever seen the aliens using the shields witch literally makes all you weapons feel like your using a BB gun, they access to that too.

Superior training
With the anchorage training sim all BoS will have pre war spec ops training, all they have to find out is how to engage safety protocol which shouldn't take them too long.

The Pitt steel mill
They will be able to create a assortment of things using the mill wether it be ammo, guns and armour. Guns and armour because they could simply learn how to make them by reverse engineering them so they could mass produce tb51 and enclave armour, and if the raiders/slaves do not accept the BoS could simply run them down and take the mill for themselves if they were desperate enough.

They'd get all of the of the tech from enclave on broken steel.
They could use the orbital strike if they rebuild the adams airfield base using the Pitt steel mill.

They could salvage the jet and submarine from point lookout and rebuild it using the Pitt mill.

The pure water pumping into the wasteland would bring in more people which would be potential recruits. Not only that but you can choose to have Harold's oasis spread across the wasteland the most defiantly will attract many people from the west to the east.

Lone Wanderer
They also have liberty prime and if they can rebuild him using cameras and sensors your damn right they can make more than one of them.

Darkstorm Zero
Wow, 2 year old hell too!

Well, at least they agree with me... :P

The Manga Guru
BOS win

FinalAnswer
No

The Manga Guru
Yes

FinalAnswer
Nope

NemeBro
If the Brohood gets DLC shit then so does the NCR.

So I guess they take the nuclear arsenal in the Divide and wipe the Capital Wasteland off the map.

Tzeentch
I'll wipe your face off this dick.

FinalAnswer
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2oto7SGwf1qzv4vio1_400.gif

The Manga Guru
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Nope yes

FinalAnswer
nyet

ScreamPaste
...Maybe.

The Manga Guru
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
nyet yes

FinalAnswer
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2oto7SGwf1qzv4vio1_400.gif

The Manga Guru
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2oto7SGwf1qzv4vio1_400.gif
Yes

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
If the Brohood gets DLC shit then so does the NCR.

So I guess they take the nuclear arsenal in the Divide and wipe the Capital Wasteland off the map.

You mean the one nuke that the Courier either fires at the Legion, NCR, or keeps in the bunker and destroys Hopeville with?

Sorry, but warheads do not, a ballistic missile make. Especially when they are all blown to shit, or locked out by ED-E.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
No

You never got back to the previous points BTW.

FinalAnswer
I'm lazy

NemeBro
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You mean the one nuke There's more than one.

Also could just have Big MT make the missiles. And make an invincible hologram army like Elijah wanted to do.

NCR wins!

The Manga Guru
No

FinalAnswer
Originally posted by The Manga Guru
No

http://i62.tinypic.com/14dq0bd.png

The Manga Guru
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
http://i62.tinypic.com/14dq0bd.png Better armor, better training, better weapons. Ncr has proven even with numbers they can get thier shit pushed in easily.

Darkstorm Zero
Originally posted by NemeBro
There's more than one.

Also could just have Big MT make the missiles. And make an invincible hologram army like Elijah wanted to do.

NCR wins!

Depends on the choices of the Courier. Either he launched the thing at the Legion, or he sealed the bunker and destroyed the stockpile, but either way, ED-E locks the bunker afterwards IIRC.

If we go for it like that, then the Zeta Deathray is back on the table. *Shrugs*.

The Holograms are tactically limited to the range of their emitters. And the Emitters can be wiped out. Which actually brings to mind as to HOW Elijah was actually going to deploy the things as a mobile roving military unit. I have a suspicion that it may have to do with the Holorifles he was working on, but that still requires a living flesh and blood man in the field for it to work... Hmm...

IIRC, Elijah wanted to use the Holograms in conjunction with the Cloud to wipe out the NCR, but the Cloud would undoubtedly kill off any human operators of the Holorifle emitters, so I am dubious of that theory being true.

Lone Wanderer
Couldn't the BoS use the deathray to take out the divide, big mt and California.

I mean it didn't take long for Elliot to adapt the biogels.

FinalAnswer
Even if the BoS could access it, they would never use a weapon of mass destruction that would kill hundreds of thousands, potentially millions, of civilians.

And would also destroy the the west coast BoS.

Lone Wanderer
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Even if the BoS could access it, they would never use a weapon of mass destruction that would kill hundreds of thousands, potentially millions, of civilians.

And would also destroy the the west coast BoS.

I don't think the BoS would care too much about places like the divide and maybe bigMT they're mostly isolated anyways, besides destroying the divide would be a good thing.

I'm sure that the inaccessible doors is just the game after all Sally can move throughout the ship.

FinalAnswer
Using the deathray destroyed basically all of Quebec

You can't use it without a terrible amount of collateral damage

Lone Wanderer
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Using the deathray destroyed basically all of Quebec

You can't use it without a terrible amount of collateral damage

I guess your right but what if the BoS used the ship as a possible base?

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