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For male ninja, my top picks are Joe Musashi, Guy, Hanzo Hattori, Scorpion, Subzero, and Ryu Hayabusa. Mai Shiranui gets mad props for being the original bouncy kunoichi, which helped paved the way for fan faves such as Kasumi, Ayane and Taki.

This is for best ninja OVERALL. Who deserves the award (both male and female)?

Scorpion. just cus hes most badass, imo.

Male- Scorpion

Famale- Ayame

Does Ezio count as a ninja? He's got disguises, stealth, throwing knives, acrobatic skills, agility, smoke bombs...

I vote Ezio.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Does Ezio count as a ninja? He's got disguises, stealth, throwing knives, acrobatic skills, agility, smoke bombs...

I vote Ezio.

I was thinking the same thing. Oh well.

Male: Strider Hiryu, Zankuro Minazuki

Female: Mai Shiranui

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Does Ezio count as a ninja? He's got disguises, stealth, throwing knives, acrobatic skills, agility, smoke bombs...

I vote Ezio. Ezio is too awesome to be considered a ninja.

Male: Strider Hiryu, Hayabusa, Scorp, Hanzo & Galford (Samurai Shodown), Hyo Iwamono (Rival Schools).

Female: Ibuki and Hibana...easily

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Does Ezio count as a ninja? He's got disguises, stealth, throwing knives, acrobatic skills, agility, smoke bombs...

I vote Ezio. i would say no, just because ninja is pretty much just an Asian assassin. but other than nationality, i would say he is....so idk.

and besided, altair is cooler imo.

Altair, is bland, not cool. There's a difference.

Master Chief.

Originally posted by BloodRawEngine
Altair, is bland, not cool. There's a difference. oh, so it can't be my opinion because it is not yours?

Originally posted by menokokoro
i would say no, just because ninja is pretty much just an Asian assassin. but other than nationality, i would say he is....so idk.

and besided, altair is cooler imo.

Altair is a cardboard cutout of a character in comparison to Ezio...

lol that doesn't mean i have to like him more, he may have more character than altair, but that doesn't mean that that character has to be likeable to everyone

As they say, no accounting for taste...

eh, i like "To each their own."

Scorpion.

Male: Kage

Female: Kasumi

Originally posted by Peach
Altair is a cardboard cutout of a character in comparison to Ezio... And yet the first one was the superior game.hmm

The only way AC was better than AC2 was in the guard chases, which were darn harrowing in the first but easy as **** in the second. Other than that AC2 sweeps the board. Even Yahtzee had trouble finding things to nitpick about.

First of all I say that Ezio does not count. Sorry I love Ezio, he's awesome. But he's pure out an Assassin. This is for best Ninja, a ninja would be qualified as someone who has a knowledge of specific styles of combat. There are a few other things but sense I'll probably have to bring them up later in defense, I'll just wait till someone complains about how I said this to post them XD

As far as my choice. I say Ryu Hayabusa does qualify as the best Male Ninja and just through personal opinion I would have to say Rue from MC2. Someone complained before to me when I said she was a ninja. Okay... she wear's dark clothing for stealth, she uses a mixture of Shuriken and a Katana, she uses speed to her advantage and strikes vital points, not to mention it is hard as hell for her to be hit (when I played as her against Juto I was never once hit. Talk about being awesome). She stole information that was deemed Top Secret even within the Northern Forces. She was a shadow the whole time! The only reason that she was even caught was because (as said in the game itself) There was a leak in the Southern Forces and when the information was retrieved, she contacted headquarters, informed them, and the Northern Force spy who infiltrated the Southern Forces informed them of this and had the mighty Elgar on her.

Rue = Best Ninja EVER.

How the hell could that outfit possibly be stealthy? She's wearing a backpack with bells on it - kind of the opposite of stealth. Not to mention the high heels, yeah, those'll work out well.

Also I like how you say Ezio doesn't qualify, and then go and list out all sorts of stuff that this Rue did that is...basically the same sort of stuff that Ezio did (using speed and stealth for assassinations, being difficult to hit, stealing info/items right out from under people's noses)...personally, I'd say dropping down on top of people and killing them without anyone even noticing perfectly fits the (usually incorrect) archetype of ninjas.

Also, I love Magna Carta artwork, but good god their artists cannot draw. Hello there broken arm.

(and since when are katana a stereotypical ninja weapon? They aren't.)

Let's see...

Dark clothes for stealth?

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091130221138/assassinscreed/images/6/63/Zw-altairarmor.png
Check.

Shuriken and katana?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101027200934/assassinscreed/images/4/47/Screen_shot_2010-10-25_at_4.54.58_PM.png
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091002181357/assassinscreed/images/3/3e/AC2_CA_008_Swords.png
Throwing knives, and swords that aren't made of crap iron. Check, and better than.

Speed and vital point striking?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100919025309/assassinscreed/images/thumb/4/4e/Ezio_Kill_Knife.jpg/800px-Ezio_Kill_Knife.jpg
Oh. Oh dear. Ow... yeah, check.

Stealing info? Yep, Ezio does that too, vital Templar documents and more.

Ezio's the ****ing Ninja of Venice, and does it better than any small beskirted girl with a broken arm.

I thought the reason why Ezio wasn't included was because he's just a lame character and a lamer ninja.

Compared to the Master Chief.

Master Chief is the Isabella Swan of video games. No personality at all so you can insert your own

Originally posted by menokokoro
i would say no, just because ninja is pretty much just an Asian assassin. but other than nationality, i would say he is....so idk.

and besided, altair is cooler imo.


hey thats just racist not all ninja's are Asian gosh your mean

Originally posted by zeroking24
hey thats just racist not all ninja's are Asian gosh your mean
Don't worry, if he thinks Altair's better than Ezio, his opinion is an anti-opinion!

Also I would like to point out that saying "he cannot be a ninja because he is an Assassin" is rather disingenuous. The archetype of a ninja is simply a nimble, agile assassin, who takes advantage of stealth, and is typically Japanese. That is all. There are no specific combat styles that go along with this or anything of the sort.

Dictionary.com says a ninja is:

'a member of a feudal Japanese society of mercenary agents, highly trained in martial arts and stealth (ninjutsu), who were hired for covert purposes ranging from espionage to sabotage and assassination.'

and:

'a person skilled in ninjutsu, a Japanese martial art characterized by stealthy movement and camouflage.'

By both of those definitions Ezio is not a ninja, being neither Japanese, a member of a ninja group or a practicioner of ninjutsu.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dictionary.com says a ninja is:

'a member of a feudal Japanese society of mercenary agents, highly trained in martial arts and stealth (ninjutsu), who were hired for covert purposes ranging from espionage to sabotage and assassination.'

and:

'a person skilled in ninjutsu, a Japanese martial art characterized by stealthy movement and camouflage.'

By both of those definitions Ezio is not a ninja, being neither Japanese, a member of a ninja group or a practicioner of ninjutsu.
Oh, now you've gone and riled me up.

First, skilled in ninjutsu. Of course, ninjutsu, unlike Judo or most martial art disciplines, is not centralized, and there are many variations upon the basic technique. The heart of ninjutsu boils down to survival tactics, espionage, misdirection, escape, disguise, medicine.

Hmm... Those are all things Ezio knows!

In fact, let's break it down into the Juhakkei presented by the Bujinkan.

Spiritual refinement - The heart of the Assassin, as noted in their philosophies. An Assassin respects those he has killed. Nothing is true, everything is permitted. "We work in the dark, to preserve the light."

Unarmed combat - Ezio is a master at unarmed combat, using handfuls of dirt to blind attackers, warding off attacks from various types of weapons, and able to disarm opponents easily, often while in a crowd. He can both incapacitate and even kill with his bare hands.

Sword techniques - Ezio can use dozens of swords as well as any master, blocking, parrying, disarming, and killing with ease.

Stick and staff techniques - Ezio can disarm soldiers with polearms and use them proficiently, able to keep fighting momentarily even if his pole is broken in half.

Spear techniques - Same thing, Ezio can knock down multiple attackers with a spear, and stab each one of them.

Naginata techniques - While naginata obviously weren't in much use in 16th century Italy, Ezio is capable of using longswords in the same way, cutting down charging horses to get to the rider.

Kusarigama techniques - While there are no kusarigama in Italy, the essence of this style is present, in that Ezio can use many farming tools found in the countryside as improvised weapons.

Throwing weapon techniques - Ezio is a master of throwing knives, able to kill guards at extreme range with efficiency and accuracy.

Pyrotechnics - Ezio uses smoke bombs and his Hidden Gun, and also knows enough to use flares as signals.

Disguise and impersonation - Multiple times Ezio has disguised himself, and others, as enemy soldiers and avoided detection, even able to speak some other languages well enough to hold a conversation.

Stealth and entering methods - Stealth is the meat of Assassin work. Whether he's avoiding being seen or blending in with a crowd, Ezio excels at it. He can also freerun to enter buildings from rooftops and open windows, avoiding detection, and can pick locks with his blades.

Horsemanship - Ezio is a proficient rider, able to strike and shoot from horseback, and even leap off his horse onto another when necessary.

Water training - Apparently the only man in Italy who can swim, Ezio can use the water as a hiding spot and as a secondary passage if possible. He's also rowed many small boats in his lifetime, and dismantled larger ones while doing it.

Tactics - Not the obvious combat tactics. This skill refers to unorthodox strategies and manipulations of politics and current events to influence opponents. Most of Ezio's Templar targets involve this kind of action.

Espionage - From pickpocketing to trailing to eavesdropping, this is most of what Ezio does.

Escaping and concealment - Freerunning, using crowds and allies as hindrances to his pursuers, hiding in places from plain sight to haystacks to gardens to wells and water... This is the rest of what Ezio does.

Meteorology - Believe it or not, Ezio does this too! The weather occasionally provides an advantage Ezio exploits to approach his targets.

Geography - As his exploits cover most of Italy, Ezio purchases maps and climbs to high viewpoints, and uses his knowledge of the areas to both find hiding places and ascertain the locations of his targets.

So every major element of Ninjutsu, as defined by the Bujinkan, the modern continuation of ninja arts, Ezio has effectively covered. It's also worth noting that in the AC universe, Assassins had been around as long as Mankind, and there were Asian Orders that influenced/became Japan's ninja.

So... Ezio's more ninja than most manga-derived ninja.

He also fights as a Warrior, he performs in flight, he uses high tech machinery which was developed by others.
Is it not simply enough to say that Ezio as an Assassin is more than a Ninja can be?
I don't dislike Ezio, personally I believe he's the best of all characters, but I don't think he's a better ninja for many reasons. Ezio is typically caught at some point, he typically creates a huge fuss after his actions. I think it's enough to say that an Assassin is very similar to a Ninja but not the same.

I think you've got it the wrong way around. "Ninja" is just what you call an Assassin in Japan, after all.

And the practicing Ninja teachings say he is, so yes, Ezio is the best ninja in gaming.

Oh, and since your sync rate goes down if you take damage, Ezio never got hit, except for two or three specific times in over 20 years as an Assassin. How's that for a badass untouchable ninja?

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Oh, now you've gone and riled me up.

First, skilled in ninjutsu. Of course, ninjutsu, unlike Judo or most martial art disciplines, is not centralized, and there are many variations upon the basic technique. The heart of ninjutsu boils down to survival tactics, espionage, misdirection, escape, disguise, medicine.

Hmm... Those are all things Ezio knows!

In fact, let's break it down into the Juhakkei presented by the Bujinkan.

Spiritual refinement - The heart of the Assassin, as noted in their philosophies. An Assassin respects those he has killed. Nothing is true, everything is permitted. "We work in the dark, to preserve the light."

Unarmed combat - Ezio is a master at unarmed combat, using handfuls of dirt to blind attackers, warding off attacks from various types of weapons, and able to disarm opponents easily, often while in a crowd. He can both incapacitate and even kill with his bare hands.

Sword techniques - Ezio can use dozens of swords as well as any master, blocking, parrying, disarming, and killing with ease.

Stick and staff techniques - Ezio can disarm soldiers with polearms and use them proficiently, able to keep fighting momentarily even if his pole is broken in half.

Spear techniques - Same thing, Ezio can knock down multiple attackers with a spear, and stab each one of them.

Naginata techniques - While naginata obviously weren't in much use in 16th century Italy, Ezio is capable of using longswords in the same way, cutting down charging horses to get to the rider.

Kusarigama techniques - While there are no kusarigama in Italy, the essence of this style is present, in that Ezio can use many farming tools found in the countryside as improvised weapons.

Throwing weapon techniques - Ezio is a master of throwing knives, able to kill guards at extreme range with efficiency and accuracy.

Pyrotechnics - Ezio uses smoke bombs and his Hidden Gun, and also knows enough to use flares as signals.

Disguise and impersonation - Multiple times Ezio has disguised himself, and others, as enemy soldiers and avoided detection, even able to speak some other languages well enough to hold a conversation.

Stealth and entering methods - Stealth is the meat of Assassin work. Whether he's avoiding being seen or blending in with a crowd, Ezio excels at it. He can also freerun to enter buildings from rooftops and open windows, avoiding detection, and can pick locks with his blades.

Horsemanship - Ezio is a proficient rider, able to strike and shoot from horseback, and even leap off his horse onto another when necessary.

Water training - Apparently the only man in Italy who can swim, Ezio can use the water as a hiding spot and as a secondary passage if possible. He's also rowed many small boats in his lifetime, and dismantled larger ones while doing it.

Tactics - Not the obvious combat tactics. This skill refers to unorthodox strategies and manipulations of politics and current events to influence opponents. Most of Ezio's Templar targets involve this kind of action.

Espionage - From pickpocketing to trailing to eavesdropping, this is most of what Ezio does.

Escaping and concealment - Freerunning, using crowds and allies as hindrances to his pursuers, hiding in places from plain sight to haystacks to gardens to wells and water... This is the rest of what Ezio does.

Meteorology - Believe it or not, Ezio does this too! The weather occasionally provides an advantage Ezio exploits to approach his targets.

Geography - As his exploits cover most of Italy, Ezio purchases maps and climbs to high viewpoints, and uses his knowledge of the areas to both find hiding places and ascertain the locations of his targets.

So every major element of Ninjutsu, as defined by the Bujinkan, the modern continuation of ninja arts, Ezio has effectively covered. It's also worth noting that in the AC universe, Assassins had been around as long as Mankind, and there were Asian Orders that influenced/became Japan's ninja.

So... Ezio's more ninja than most manga-derived ninja.

Debatable line of thought imo. The heart of baseball is swinging a bat and catching the ball (simplified, I know theres more). I can do both of those things but I am not a baseball player. Just as I can punch and kick but am not a martial artist. Ezio can do the basic elements of ninjutsu, but he doesn't practise the art itself. Also, the AC wiki says nothing of the Assassin order reaching Japan. The closest they come is the Chinese assassin Wei Yu.

Also he is still neither Japanese nor a member of a ninja organisation.

-_- that's not his sync thats his health. A.K.A. why he has health potions so there. I agreed on some things like that. Altair had it like that, the reason it starts getting unsynced near the end is because Ezio never really got that close to death on fights unless it was a cutscene.

Ezio's badass but a Ninja he is not.

So you're saying the tenets of modern ninjitsu are wrong?

And the sync/health thing is fuzzy. Ubisoft's weird like that.

It's not fuzzy. Ezio has gotten hit, he's admitted himself how he's been injured in different situations. But he's never said "I've almost been killed in a fight" because he always comes out on top. Ezio only starts to become unsynchronized when he's closer to death (or leaves the area he's allowed in but that's not the point). Altair gained bars back because he gained synchronization, that's why when he got hit he wasn't able to use Eagle eye until he regained Sync.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Debatable line of thought imo. The heart of baseball is swinging a bat and catching the ball (simplified, I know theres more). I can do both of those things but I am not a baseball player. Just as I can punch and kick but am not a martial artist. Ezio can do the basic elements of ninjutsu, but he doesn't practise the art itself. Also, the AC wiki says nothing of the Assassin order reaching Japan. The closest they come is the Chinese assassin Wei Yu.

Also he is still neither Japanese nor a member of a ninja organisation.
Not just the basic elements, son, that is every discipline noted in the scrolls of Togakure-ryu. All eighteen specific skills thought to be central to what it is to be ninja. If he practices all the elements of the art, he practices the art itself, though not in name. There is no notable difference between a trained ninja's skillset and Ezio's as an Assassin.

Also you're racist, and many worldwide practicioners of modern day Ninjitsu would take offense to your claim than only Japanese people are cool enough to be ninja.

Originally posted by Phoenix3068
It's not fuzzy. Ezio has gotten hit, he's admitted himself how he's been injured in different situations. But he's never said "I've almost been killed in a fight" because he always comes out on top. Ezio only starts to become unsynchronized when he's closer to death (or leaves the area he's allowed in but that's not the point). Altair gained bars back because he gained synchronization, that's why when he got hit he wasn't able to use Eagle eye until he regained Sync.
When has Ezio admitted to being injured? He's had three major wounds in story, and shook off one of them after catching his breath. None of them majorly incapacitates him. Ezio is desynched when you lose health, and resynched either slowly automatically as it wears off, or immediately as he takes medicine. The Animus measures sync rate as stated in the games and manuals, and armor and time influence that in some weird way not fully explained because Ubisoft wanted it that way. It's fuzzy. But the gameplay still involves staying synched, and still measures it.

Okay for example, during a single templar hunt when a woman is near the edge Ezio says "I've fallen off my fair share of buildings".

Into magical hay stacks which defy velocity x mass.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Into magical hay stacks which defy velocity x mass.
This. Or into wells, or rivers, or onto sticking-out bits of other buildings. Falling off does not mean injured. Not to mention Ezio is a playful flirt who is not above telling white lies to charm the female specimen.

Then your also assuming that it's a lie which in case, we could all assume it's a lie that he's never been hurt. There have been plenty of times where Ezio has sustained damages and it's quite obvious we know of it. He's made mistakes, he's been caught trying to be sneaky. It doesn't matter if Ezio is the coolest person in the world (which he might just be) he is not a ninja.

Originally posted by Phoenix3068
Then your also assuming that it's a lie which in case, we could all assume it's a lie that he's never been hurt. There have been plenty of times where Ezio has sustained damages and it's quite obvious we know of it. He's made mistakes, he's been caught trying to be sneaky. It doesn't matter if Ezio is the coolest person in the world (which he might just be) he is not a ninja.
The Animus doesn't lie. If being hurt desyncs Desmond, then he's not in line with Ezio's memory of not being hurt.

So being a ninja requires never being caught, ever, period? Then why is the bulk of ninjutsu discipline concerned with combat?

You are just jealous because my ninja is better than yours. You can't come up with a single reason beyond "he's not because he's not."

Actually IRL ninjas, if they were caught, failed their mission. Ninjas should have to resort to combat as little as possible.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Actually IRL ninjas, if they were caught, failed their mission. Ninjas should have to resort to combat as little as possible.
Hardly so. Since such activities were dishonorable in feudal Japan, the people selected for these missions were already hinin, the lowest of the social castes of the time. No honor lost in being found.

Not to mention ninja were thought useful on the battlefield for their ability to confuse and disorient the opposition.

A ninja if anything can be defined as a Japanese Elite force of fighters. You don't associate Ninja's with Americans, The English, French, Australian, etc etc. Ezio is what he is, he is an Assassin. I could care if your "ninja" is better than mine, I said before I love Ezio and would choose him for everything IF he could fit into the category. He's not a ninja, he doesn't fit. If you think that Ninja's and Assassin's are the same then why are there Ninja's and Assassin's in assistance at the same time? Ninja do things for honor, because they are given an order to. Assassin's are typically paid or are used for executions.

I never once said "He's not because he's not" and that's simply taking my words out of context because I don't think that you should be allowed to say that a Non-Ninja gets the Ninja Award, only reason I didn't say anything about Blaxican is because he answers master chief for everything because he just wants to play around. You wouldn't go into a "Best Assassin Award" and say Ryu Hayabusa for the best Assassin would you? No, because everyone and their brother knows he's a Ninja.

I'm sorry that I'm getting so heated about this but it's the facts. A ninja is a ninja, an Assassin is an Assassin.

Originally posted by Phoenix3068
A ninja if anything can be defined as a Japanese Elite force of fighters. You don't associate Ninja's with Americans, The English, French, Australian, etc etc. Ezio is what he is, he is an Assassin. I could care if your "ninja" is better than mine, I said before I love Ezio and would choose him for everything IF he could fit into the category. He's not a ninja, he doesn't fit. If you think that Ninja's and Assassin's are the same then why are there Ninja's and Assassin's in assistance at the same time? Ninja do things for honor, because they are given an order to. Assassin's are typically paid or are used for executions.

I never once said "He's not because he's not" and that's simply taking my words out of context because I don't think that you should be allowed to say that a Non-Ninja gets the Ninja Award, only reason I didn't say anything about Blaxican is because he answers master chief for everything because he just wants to play around. You wouldn't go into a "Best Assassin Award" and say Ryu Hayabusa for the best Assassin would you? No, because everyone and their brother knows he's a Ninja.

I'm sorry that I'm getting so heated about this but it's the facts. A ninja is a ninja, an Assassin is an Assassin.
Do you know anything about the historical roles of ninja? You are thinking of samurai, who were (meant to be) bound by a code of warrior's honor and loyal to the daimyo that they served. Ninja were a direct contrast, people of the lowest social caste picked out to do dishonorable tasks that were nevertheless necessary in Feudal Japan. Honor was never a question for ninja, at all.

Assassins, on the other hand, are specifically people who kill suddenly or by surprise, often for pay and usually for political reasons. Assassins aren't used for executions, executioners are!

Blax was blatantly trolling. I'm supporting an exemplary candidate most others wouldn't look at. I wouldn't call Ryu Hayabusa an assassin because he kills for personal reasons, not for money or politics. I would call him a ninja because he uses ninjutsu.

Ezio is an Assassin, who uses tactics that are strikingly alike to ninjutsu in all its disciplines. For this reason, he qualifies as a ninja. And because he does it all in an exemplary fashion, he qualifies as best ninja.

Ninja. Honor. Hah!

The two words do not belong in the same sentence.

Ninja were masters of fighting dirty. Most of their arsenal of moves consisted of things that were downright dishonorable and created and exploited weaknesses in their opponents. And when it comes down to fighting dirty and exploiting weaknesses...man, Ezio is a master at that.

Stop confusing ninja with samurai.

Samurai were not really all that known for honor either, honestly.

Keep in mind Miyamoto Musashi, likely the most famous samurai, would use a gun if it proved to his advantage.

Then again, Musashi has done so much shit like that he may be out of the ordinary...

Bleh, whatever. The fact that GK said something like "Do you know anything about..." hurts because it's insulting my intelligence which was uncalled for. I won't come back with anything as I don't wish to argue personally and this is getting out of hand. You want to call Ezio a ninja then fine, let's announce Ezio as Best Everything sense you could clearly take it upon yourself to make sure everyone believes that.

-.- I'll vote for a different award.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Samurai were not really all that known for honor either, honestly.

Keep in mind Miyamoto Musashi, likely the most famous samurai, would use a gun if it proved to his advantage.

Then again, Musashi has done so much shit like that he may be out of the ordinary...

They had the whole code, though, so they were supposed to be honorable. Reality would beg to differ, but that's still the stereotype of the samurai.

Originally posted by Phoenix3068
Bleh, whatever. The fact that GK said something like "Do you know anything about..." hurts because it's insulting my intelligence which was uncalled for. I won't come back with anything as I don't wish to argue personally and this is getting out of hand. You want to call Ezio a ninja then fine, let's announce Ezio as Best Everything sense you could clearly take it upon yourself to make sure everyone believes that.

-.- I'll vote for a different award.

Well, most of the stuff you said was blatantly incorrect, a misconception, or a case of confusing things. So...it rather did seem like your idea of ninja came from nothing but Naruto.

Ezio clearly displays all of the abilities intrinsic to being a ninja; hence he can be considered one, despite being from Renaissance Italy.

If you think that this is something to get that upset over, you probably shouldn't participate in debates or arguments on here, because yeah. This is nothing.

GK you hurt her feelings. Monster.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Samurai were not really all that known for honor either, honestly.

Keep in mind Miyamoto Musashi, likely the most famous samurai, would use a gun if it proved to his advantage.

Then again, Musashi has done so much shit like that he may be out of the ordinary...
Note I said "meant to be." Bushido was more guidelines to be ignored than actual rules. Samurai have been ridiculously idealized by popular culture just as much as ninja.

Originally posted by Phoenix3068
Bleh, whatever. The fact that GK said something like "Do you know anything about..." hurts because it's insulting my intelligence which was uncalled for. I won't come back with anything as I don't wish to argue personally and this is getting out of hand. You want to call Ezio a ninja then fine, let's announce Ezio as Best Everything sense you could clearly take it upon yourself to make sure everyone believes that.

-.- I'll vote for a different award.
I ask not to insult, but because your posts show enough evidence for me to actually wonder. You really should not be taking simple discussion so seriously and personally. I would not seek to call Ezio, say, the Best Soldier because there are clearly better military fighters out there in gaming. But Ezio shows basically all the essential elements of being a ninja, and in my opinion he does it best.

It does you no hurt for me to think so, and you should not take it as an insult if I rebuff your claims to the contrary with evidence I have found. This is how debate works, after all.

Originally posted by Phoenix3068
Bleh, whatever. The fact that GK said something like "Do you know anything about..." hurts because it's insulting my intelligence which was uncalled for. I won't come back with anything as I don't wish to argue personally and this is getting out of hand. You want to call Ezio a ninja then fine, let's announce Ezio as Best Everything sense you could clearly take it upon yourself to make sure everyone believes that.

-.- I'll vote for a different award. I sure is hoping your not getting worked up over an internet argument?

as for the awards in general I think most of these rewards are a little biased or unnecessary such as this. Personally if I can I would of put all these in one catogory or remake them with appropriate titles that covers more range and thought.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Debatable line of thought imo. The heart of baseball is swinging a bat and catching the ball (simplified, I know theres more). I can do both of those things but I am not a baseball player. Just as I can punch and kick but am not a martial artist. Ezio can do the basic elements of ninjutsu, but he doesn't practise the art itself. Also, the AC wiki says nothing of the Assassin order reaching Japan. The closest they come is the Chinese assassin Wei Yu.

Also he is still neither Japanese nor a member of a ninja organisation.

Most impressive. He hit the nail right on the head there Kal.

You would have to establish to an exact degree of specificity that what Ezio domonstrated was, to a defining extent, Ninjitsu, for him to be considered a Ninja, at least using the definition currently being argued. You have applied some level of specificity but the nature of what you have presented is still fundamentally general.

Learn how to edit your posts already. Posting several times within the edit window is not acceptable.

Also, most of the techniques were not terribly specific to begin with, so.

And also, on the "Ezio rarely got hit" side of things, most of the 100% challenges in AC: Brotherhood require you to either 1) not be detected at all (hence making being hit impossible), 2) not get hit at all, or 3) take a very minimal amount of damage. Getting 100% sync on a memory means that you have gone through the memory just as Ezio did it. So the 100% sync challenges directly support that Ezio very, very rarely ever got hit.

You again, NC?

Ezio has already been shown to completely fulfill all eighteen traditional disciplines of ninjutsu. You really don't need any more proof than that. Ezio is a master of all the arts deemed essential to being a ninja, so unless you're going to be racist, he certainly qualifies.

Well I'm by no means an expert but I'd imagine they delve far more deeply into the mentioned 18 disciplines beyond a simple description of what they encompass.

There are hundreds of martials arts in existence, and a hell of a lot of overlap when it comes to the core disciplines. Its the exact techniques that defines the martial art, not the core areas it emphasises. Nephthys and Phoenix are absolutely correct on the matter.

- That was a drect response to Peach btw, I hadn't refreshed the page.

Why do you start out by saying that you're not an expert on something and then go on to say make definitive statements about it as if you are?

Personally I will take the word of someone who has done extensive training in martial arts over someone who admits to not knowing anything about it...

Technically, no, Ezio is not a ninja.

But let us compare him to Ryu Hayabusa.

When has Ryu Hayabusa done anything remotely ninja-like?

He is more like a friggin terminator wearing a halloween ninja costume.

Ezio, in terms of what he does, is more of a ninja than Hayabusa will ever be.

I was speaking about Ninjitsu specifically. I've been training in martial arts my entire life, and am well versed in kickboxing, brazilian jui jitsu, and wrestling.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
You again, NC?

Ezio has already been shown to completely fulfill all eighteen traditional disciplines of ninjutsu. You really don't need any more proof than that. Ezio is a master of all the arts deemed essential to being a ninja, so unless you're going to be racist, he certainly qualifies.

If Ninjitsu were to be fully defined by those 18 core disciplines, absolutely. The fact of the matter is that you haven't established that Ezio demonstrates an application of the art to an exact degree of specificity.

edit - Ugh, sorry about this one, I had already opened a new tab and made the post before copying and pasting it into the other box.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well I'm by no means an expert but I'd imagine they delve far more deeply into the mentioned 18 disciplines beyond a simple description of what they encompass.

There are hundreds of martials arts in existence, and a hell of a lot of overlap when it comes to the core disciplines. Its the exact techniques that defines the martial art, not the core areas it emphasises. Nephthys and Phoenix are absolutely correct on the matter.

- That was a drect response to Peach btw, I hadn't refreshed the page.
Speaking as someone who has mastered two forms of martial art and dabbled in a third, you are very much uneducated in this area. While kata, or forms, or whichever you like to call them are mostly specific to a certain art (and only mostly; virtually all staff forms incorporate the same handful of movements in barely varied order), the movements in them, the important part, are the same basic attacks from nine possible directions. I have never studied Karate, but I could watch a practitioner go through his forms and pick out how each movement is identical to a movement in Tae Kwon Do.

If one possesses all the abilities of a ninja, especially to the point of obvious mastery, one certainly could be considered a ninja.

Edit: If you are indeed knowledgeable in kickboxing, jiu-jitsu, and wrestling, I'm surprised you're making this argument, expecially with how closely related they are.

Well speaking as someone who has mastered three, dabbled in many more, and plans to be a UFC fighter, individual components of generic core disciplines differ vastly, from the exact combinations of various basic moves, to stance, to the angle at which you attack from, to motion, to precision, to emphasis on balance etc. There are numerous arts that cover the exact same core disciplines; by your logic they should be considered one and the same art.

Edit - The reason I've chosen to take those specific three so far is because they're quite unrelated. One is focused on stand up, the other grappling, and the other on submission fighting. They're actually very disimilar art forms.

You are aware the ninjutsu is not a centralized martial art with a strict way of practice, right? It's not really comparable to karate or Tae Kwon Do, which are very centralized and specific. It's really more of a set of survival techniques more than anything else.

Not centralized as in there are many different variations. Variations that will individually possess a strict way of practise. Proficiency in the martial art would require proficiency in a given variation.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well speaking as someone who has mastered three, dabbled in many more, and plans to be a UFC fighter, individual components of generic core disciplines differ vastly, from the exact combinations of various basic moves, to stance, to the angle at which you attack from, to motion, to precision, to emphasis on balance etc. There are numerous arts that cover the exact same core disciplines; by your logic they should be considered one and the same art.

Edit - The reason I've chosen to take those specific three so far is because they're quite unrelated. One is focused on stand up, the other grappling, and the other on submission fighting. They're actually very disimilar art forms.
Really? Because there are only so many ways to attack.

Jointlocks are used in both Jiu-Jitsu and wrestling. So are chokeholds. Kickboxing punches are standard boxing fare. The elbow and leg strikes are shared across multiple martial arts. Kickboxing is virtually identical to Mauy Thai. Jiu-Jitsu is based on Kodokan Judo, which is itself based on traditional jujutsu.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Not centralized as in there are many different variations. Variations that will individually possess a strict way of practise. Proficiency in the martial art would require proficiency in a given variation.
Congrats on missing the point. If all those variations fall under the umbrella consideration of ninjutsu, then so does Ezio, who, as demonstrated, shows profiency in all disciplines of ninjutsu.

Actually, when you take into account stance, gesture, balance emphasis, angle, timing, precision, target location, order etc. the possibilities become pretty enormous. Jointlocks are used in wrestling but the same emphasis isn't placed on it that it is placed in BJJ.

How a given variation of the art comes to be that way is another discussion entirely, however that variations do exist doesn't mean that anything that falls under x level of generalization of the art automatically qualifies. I'm not sure how I missed the point exactly.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Actually, when you take into account stance, gesture, balance emphasis, angle, timing, precision, target location, order etc. the possibilities become pretty enormous. Jointlocks are used in wrestling but the same emphasis isn't placed on it that it is placed in BJJ.

How a given variation of the art comes to be that way is another discussion entirely, however that variations do exist doesn't mean that anything that falls under x level of generalization of the art automatically qualifies. I'm not sure how I missed the point exactly.
Actually, no. All attacks can be generalized to nine directions to attack from. Timing, no matter the art and no matter the training, tends to be semi-personal, and is something that must be learned in combat. I **** with people by making slow feints to keep them off guard, for example. Stances fall into the same handful of categories. Every stance I learned while studying Tai Chi broadsword, I had learned years previously in unarmed Tae Kwon Do. Hell, both of those have analogous moves to French epee fencing!

I am not debating emphasis, I am debating use.

If you acknowledge that variations of ninjutsu exist, then you acknowledge that it is the elements those variations share that determine they are all ninjutsu. Since that is the case, if someone knows all those elements, they are effectively, even if not technically, versed in ninjutsu.

Ergo, Ezio is a ninja in all but name.

I'm not entirely sure that what you're saying is truly coming from a place of experience. As someone who has taken multiple martial arts to very high levels a far greater emphasis is placed on such things as precision and control, and general specificity than you seem to acknowledge. Also, I'd say the emphasis has a lot to do with how closely related they are. Boxing and Capoeira both contain punching, however the former's huge emphasis in the discipline, and the latter's far greater diversity and branching away from that dscipline, are elements that would render the two martial arts to be considered highly unrelated.



1. You can't neccessarily say that it is solely because of those similarities that they can all be considered Ninjitsu. You have to factor in the history of those variations, ties to former variations/the original art of Ninjitsu, as well as outward recognition, among other hypothetical factors.

2. There is still the factor of the degree of specificity that you haven't established for what Ezio demonstrates, that could hypothetically be far greater for the mentioned variations, than what it is for Ezio.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'm not entirely sure that what you're saying is truly coming from a place of experience. As someone who has taken multiple martial arts to very high levels a far greater emphasis is placed on such things as precision and control, and general specificity than you seem to acknowledge. Also, I'd say the emphasis has a lot to do with how closely related they are. Boxing and Capoeira both contain punching, however the former's huge emphasis in the discipline, and the latter's far greater diversity and branching away from that dscipline, are elements that would render the two martial arts to be considered highly unrelated.



1. You can't neccessarily say that it is solely because of those similarities that they can all be considered Ninjitsu. You have to factor in the history of those variations, ties to former variations/the original art of Ninjitsu, as well as outward recognition, among other hypothetical factors.

2. There is still the factor of the degree of specificity that you haven't established for what Ezio demonstrates, that could hypothetically be far greater for the mentioned variations, than what it is for Ezio.
I am hardly saying that all martial arts are identical. Such an idea would be ludicrous. I am saying that elements of virtually every martial art are shared with other arts, even if they are not related. Which loops back into my original point that the origin does not make movements or disciplines unique by default.

All of this is simply to show that one can learn the necessary elements of an art through other venues.

As for specificity:
Originally posted by General Kaliero
Oh, now you've gone and riled me up.

First, skilled in ninjutsu. Of course, ninjutsu, unlike Judo or most martial art disciplines, is not centralized, and there are many variations upon the basic technique. The heart of ninjutsu boils down to survival tactics, espionage, misdirection, escape, disguise, medicine.

Hmm... Those are all things Ezio knows!

In fact, let's break it down into the Juhakkei presented by the Bujinkan.

Spiritual refinement - The heart of the Assassin, as noted in their philosophies. An Assassin respects those he has killed. Nothing is true, everything is permitted. "We work in the dark, to preserve the light."

Unarmed combat - Ezio is a master at unarmed combat, using handfuls of dirt to blind attackers, warding off attacks from various types of weapons, and able to disarm opponents easily, often while in a crowd. He can both incapacitate and even kill with his bare hands.

Sword techniques - Ezio can use dozens of swords as well as any master, blocking, parrying, disarming, and killing with ease.

Stick and staff techniques - Ezio can disarm soldiers with polearms and use them proficiently, able to keep fighting momentarily even if his pole is broken in half.

Spear techniques - Same thing, Ezio can knock down multiple attackers with a spear, and stab each one of them.

Naginata techniques - While naginata obviously weren't in much use in 16th century Italy, Ezio is capable of using longswords in the same way, cutting down charging horses to get to the rider.

Kusarigama techniques - While there are no kusarigama in Italy, the essence of this style is present, in that Ezio can use many farming tools found in the countryside as improvised weapons.

Throwing weapon techniques - Ezio is a master of throwing knives, able to kill guards at extreme range with efficiency and accuracy.

Pyrotechnics - Ezio uses smoke bombs and his Hidden Gun, and also knows enough to use flares as signals.

Disguise and impersonation - Multiple times Ezio has disguised himself, and others, as enemy soldiers and avoided detection, even able to speak some other languages well enough to hold a conversation.

Stealth and entering methods - Stealth is the meat of Assassin work. Whether he's avoiding being seen or blending in with a crowd, Ezio excels at it. He can also freerun to enter buildings from rooftops and open windows, avoiding detection, and can pick locks with his blades.

Horsemanship - Ezio is a proficient rider, able to strike and shoot from horseback, and even leap off his horse onto another when necessary.

Water training - Apparently the only man in Italy who can swim, Ezio can use the water as a hiding spot and as a secondary passage if possible. He's also rowed many small boats in his lifetime, and dismantled larger ones while doing it.

Tactics - Not the obvious combat tactics. This skill refers to unorthodox strategies and manipulations of politics and current events to influence opponents. Most of Ezio's Templar targets involve this kind of action.

Espionage - From pickpocketing to trailing to eavesdropping, this is most of what Ezio does.

Escaping and concealment - Freerunning, using crowds and allies as hindrances to his pursuers, hiding in places from plain sight to haystacks to gardens to wells and water... This is the rest of what Ezio does.

Meteorology - Believe it or not, Ezio does this too! The weather occasionally provides an advantage Ezio exploits to approach his targets.

Geography - As his exploits cover most of Italy, Ezio purchases maps and climbs to high viewpoints, and uses his knowledge of the areas to both find hiding places and ascertain the locations of his targets.

So every major element of Ninjutsu, as defined by the Bujinkan, the modern continuation of ninja arts, Ezio has effectively covered. It's also worth noting that in the AC universe, Assassins had been around as long as Mankind, and there were Asian Orders that influenced/became Japan's ninja.

So... Ezio's more ninja than most manga-derived ninja.

Well by exact degree of specificity, what I meant was more something like this:

Random Sword Combination:

Move A, Move C, Move B, Move G, Move E x 2, Move H...

Each move being elaborated on by exact: stance, balancing, sword grip, angle of attack, target area, timing, precision, energy expenditure etc..

I wouldn't say the simple discipline of "sword techniques" accompanied by a brief description speaks too highly for specificity.

So what's the current definition of ninja?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Well by exact degree of specificity, what I meant was more something like this:

Random Sword Combination:

Move A, Move C, Move B, Move G, Move E x 2, Move H...

Each move being elaborated on by exact: stance, balancing, sword grip, angle of attack, target area, timing, precision, energy expenditure etc..

I wouldn't say the simple discipline of "sword techniques" accompanied by a brief description speaks too highly for specificity.
...uh... hi there. Does Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu not have kata?

Kata or forms are standardized sequences of attack and defense used to teach students all the strikes and blocks of the discipline. Each step in the sequence comes together to form an aesthetically pleasing imaginary battle. By drilling in these sequences, the motions become second nature for individual or combined use in freeform combat.

The forms themselves are a teaching method, but in no way an entire technique. Kata are rarely applicable wholesale to actual situations; which is why they are for instruction only.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what's the current definition of ninja?
One would think someone who is capable of effectively performing ninjutsu, but apparently such logic doesn't work for some people.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Kata are rarely applicable wholesale to actual situations; which is why they are for instruction only.

Karate Kid 3 disagrees. awesome




Poor Rock lee...

But I nominate Riochi Cooper! shuriken

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
So what's the current definition of ninja?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dictionary.com says a ninja is:

'a member of a feudal Japanese society of mercenary agents, highly trained in martial arts and stealth (ninjutsu), who were hired for covert purposes ranging from espionage to sabotage and assassination.'

and:

'a person skilled in ninjutsu, a Japanese martial art characterized by stealthy movement and camouflage.'

By both of those definitions Ezio is not a ninja, being neither Japanese, a member of a ninja group or a practicioner of ninjutsu.

edit: Also Ezio tends not to utilise camourflage. Unless you count jumping in hay.





We should just let the OP decide imo. It's his thread and if he wants people to actually be ninja or if he will allow ninja equivilent's then its his decision.

Though if he picks the second then Agent 47 kicks Ezio's randy Italian ass all day long. He's not only muuuuch more sophisticated in his assassination methods, utilising 'accidents' to kill targets, his kill counts far exceeds Ezio's by a long shot and he matches all of GK's criteria.

Well if we're going by GK's fanboy-ridden definition of what a ninja is (131), I change my answer