Revamping the tierings/power levels in comics...

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TheLordofMurder
I once touched upon this topic with Rage and zop and I think its something worth discussing in detail...

In comics (both in Marvel and DC) you have characters performing feats that are far beyond what they really should be accomplishing (IMHO of course)...as a result, I fully believe dam near every aspect of both DC and Marvel comics need to retconned.

Now assumming that it was up to you, how would you rebalance everything so that there is atleast some logic and consistency in the type of feats various characters are able to perform?

I'll go 1st to give an example of what I am asking for:


Street Level
Low: Can beat up the weak and the Elderly...or a normal person that is physically impared in some way; may be grossly out of shape and slow for example.
Mid: Can beat up common crooks/thugs.
High: Can beat up a very skilled and physically powerful opponent...Brock Lesnar for example.

Enhanced
Low: Can defeat scores of normal humans without much effort.
Mid: Can go crazy and wreck vehicles and small buildings one after another.
High: Can wreck large buildings and devastate city blocks.

Herald
Low: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Martian Moon Deimos (12km diameter).
Mid: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Martian Moon Phobos (22km diameter).
High: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Saturn Moon Siarnaq (32km diameter).

Trans
Low: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Saturn Moon Dione (1120km diameter).
Mid: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Neptune Moon Triton (2706km diameter).
High: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with the Jupiter Moon Io (3636km diameter).

Skyfather
Low: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a small planet; Mars (6800km diameter).
Mid: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a medium sized planet; Earth (12756km diameter).
High: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a large planet; Neptune (49500km diameter).

Elder God
Low: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a gas giant; Saturn (120536km diameter).
Mid: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with a small star; Red Dwarf (210000km diameter).
High: Can manipulate matter/energy or destroy objects on par with an average star; Our Sun (1390000km diameter).

Cube Being
Low: Can reality warp several solar systems at will.
Mid: Can reality warp dozens of solar systems at will.
High: Can reality warp a small pocket dimension at will.

Abstract/High Powered Cosmic
Low: Can bust a Galaxy.
Mid: Can bust a Galactic Cluster.
High: Can bust a Super Cluster.

God Tier
Low: Can wreck havok on a universal scale at will.
Mid: Can destroy a universe, but not all at once.
High: Can 1 shot an entire universe.


Dam that took alot of time (prays this doesnt get locked; I put alot of effort into this)....

Anyway, again, how would you all rebalance the comic book tiers/power levels if it were up to you?

Black bolt z
Dude from skyfather on is jacked up.They should be able to do much more then that erm

And in before close.This isn't a vs. thread.

I think this forum is apporpriate but I'm not 100% sure
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/

TheLordofMurder
Whats wrong with it?

I mean at current you have Skyfathers threatening reality and busting galaxies as a side effect of their battles...you have cube beings reality warping an entire (resisting!) universe...high heralds busting planets.

I honestly think things are very jacked up as they currently are...

quanchi112
Isn't the proper place for this at all.

FanBoy101
And in before close.This isn't a vs. thread.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Whats wrong with it?

I mean at current you have Skyfathers threatening reality and busting galaxies as a side effect of their battles...you have cube beings reality warping an entire (resisting!) universe...high heralds busting planets.

I honestly think things are very jacked up as they currently are... High Skyfathers should very easily be able to bust solar systems.You have them destroying neptune.

TheLordofMurder
Skyfathers are (or rather should be...IMHO of course) planetary level Gods...

So yeah, being able to manipulate matter/energy on a planetary scale makes perfect sense IMHO; it makes alot more sense than an Earth level god busting galaxies as a side effect of his battles...

byrdgang21
According to your tier structure, Hulk would be High Skyfather

yes

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by byrdgang21
According to your tier structure, Hulk would be High Skyfather

yes

No...

I would retcon everyone in both Marvel and DC Comics; the Hulk would NEVER become strong enough to bust a planet if it were up to me; he'd be busting a Deimos or Phobos sized object max (which would be an incredible feat btw; such objects weigh billions of tons)...

And I would have bashed Supermans brains in with the "nerf" bat a long, long, time ago as well...


My goal with the revamping of the tiers is to inject "some" logic into comics and not have everyone going overboard with feats...

Going overboard with feats leads to an inflation effect...and that is exactly why we have such insane feats such as a Cube Being warping an entire universe and Skyfathers busting galaxies as a side effect of their battles.

TheLordofMurder
Hell, Surter (a Skyfather) busted a galaxy as a result of forging his sword...Twilight.

Thats stupid (have any of these writers ever heard of 'suspension of disbelief' before!??) in the extreme and thats the sort of thing my revamping of the tiers prevents...

Dum Dum Dugan
Honestly I think your tiers need a lot of work, you jump in power far to quickly. Many of marvels characters and most popular to boot fall under the enhanced area which is far to small and broad.

carver9
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
No...

I would retcon everyone in both Marvel and DC Comics; the Hulk would NEVER become strong enough to bust a planet if it were up to me; he'd be busting a Deimos or Phobos sized object max (which would be an incredible feat btw; such objects weigh billions of tons)...

And I would have bashed Supermans brains in with the "nerf" bat a long, long, time ago as well...


My goal with the revamping of the tiers is to inject "some" logic into comics and not have everyone going overboard with feats...

Going overboard with feats leads to an inflation effect...and that is exactly why we have such insane feats such as a Cube Being warping an entire universe and Skyfathers busting galaxies as a side effect of their battles.

I agree with this and it has been a WHILE since a high herald actually busted a planet. Those types of feats just doesn't exist anymore and I'm referring to a normal size planet.

Currently, I think you have to be at least a trans level being to destroy a planet and that could still be pushing it since well, it seems like they did a power level drop on almost every popular or known character.

Badabing
I was gonna leave this closed but a lot of effort went into making the thread. I'll check this tomorrow and if things are on topic with no arguing, flaming, trolling, spamming, etc then maybe we can leave it open for a while.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
No...

I would retcon everyone in both Marvel and DC Comics; the Hulk would NEVER become strong enough to bust a planet if it were up to me; he'd be busting a Deimos or Phobos sized object max (which would be an incredible feat btw; such objects weigh billions of tons)...

i was about to flame like never before (pause)

but then....Originally posted by TheLordofMurder


And I would have bashed Supermans brains in with the "nerf" bat a long, long, time ago as well...

carry on happy

Konton
Idk if collateral damage necessarily denotes power level.

For instance, Snowbird eats elder gods for breakfast, but nothing she's done really translates to planet busting.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Konton
Idk if collateral damage necessarily denotes power level.

For instance, Snowbird eats elder gods for breakfast, but nothing she's done really translates to planet busting.
I think snowbird is more of one of those characters designed to do such things more than anything else. A case of rock paper scissors if you will. Similar to how batman has no business beating superman in a fist fight only to reveal he had a set of kryptonite brass knuckles hidden under his gloves.

zopzop
Excellent tiering!

If anyone from Marvel/DC reads these forums, I hope they take a good look at this list. IMHO, you have WAAAY to many extreme level feats out in comics nowadays. It becomes so bad, each new storyline has to "one up" the previous one and it just winds up becoming moronic.

You have human beings, mutantsn affecting reality on an OMNIversal scale! The freaking LT, supposedly the second in command at MU, is only MULTIversal. How is this possible?

You have earth based deities : wrecking galaxies, shaking the universe/multiverse, and affecting all planes of existence when they clash.

Keep in mind godlike abstractions haven't been shown doing anything that level EVER.

I sound like a broken record but as proof I give you :

Odin/Seth fighting (mutliverse shaking, etc...)
Eric Masterson THor/Dargo Thor fighting (universe shaking)
Vulcan/Black Bolt fighting (destroying PARSECS long stretches of space!)
Surtur forging his sword (destroying a galaxy to forge a sword)
Hulk (thunderclapping and destroying a dimension!)
Wanda Maximoff throwing a *** fit (rearranging the OMNIverse)
Mad Jim Jaspers (destroying universes like sand castles and threatening the OMNIverse)
Franklin Richards (universe level psionic power)
Jammie Braddock (universe, at least, level reality warping power)

I'm sure I'm missing others but you get my drift. Where has the Living Tribunal, Galactus, Order/Chaos, Death, Eternity, etc.. been shown doing half that?

I understand also that it's just a comic, but when you have humans affecting the OMNIverse, then how are abstracts supposed to compete? THere's nothing greater than an OMNIverse so what's left for them to do?

Uriel005
Franklin = Mad Jim or at least he will be/supposed to be.

carver9
Everything that I'm saying is coming directly from on panel showings... on panel.

Wolverine enhanced (low)
Spiderman enhanced (low)
Sabertooth enhanced (low)
Black panther enhanced (low)
Captain america enhanced (low)
Midnighter enhanced (low)
Batman enhanced (low)
Lady shiva enhanced (low)
Deathstroke enhanced (low)

Enhanced high

Blue marvel
Wonder woman
Power girl
None confidense sentry
Supergirl
Martian manhunter
Orion (rage could boost him to low herald)


Low herald

Thor. (Versatility could move him up to mid)
Superman (versatility could move him up to mid)
Firelord
Hulk
Juggernaut
Konvikt
Magneto
Nate grey (versatilty could potentially move him up to mid)
Black adam
Gladiator
Captain marvel
Sentry (confident)
Beta ray bill

Can't think of any mids... will edit my post.

High Herald (I know some of these peoplecan beat the other but I am basing this off of pure power... not on a "who can win bases"wink

Surfer
Power Gem Drax
Champion with the gem or bands
Thanos (potentially low trans)
Void
Hal (could have sworn that I have seen him wreck small planets)

I will do the rest later... just using the main characters.

King Kandy
Basically, you're suggesting we just make everything up and discard on-panel showings in order to conform to this arbitrarily selected list of standards?

Allankles
Tiers as they are now are fine. Superman, Thor, Surfer, Orion are more or less on the same level.

Superman - can power a solar system sized machine on brute strength and absorbed a blast with his own body that was going to destroy the solar system.

Thor - can generate enough force to bust a celestial.

Orion - with the Astro Force contained a blast that was going to destroy the universe.

Surfer - can manipulate energies capable of destroying Galactus level beings.

So putting them on the same tiers is just logical. Tiers are about perceived average upper level to me, meaning that on average these characters would be a match for each other given their unique attributes.

I think story should take precedence over feats anyway, but trying to restrict a hero character's level in the comics is a fool's errand to me. Too many writers, too many perspectives.

quanchi112
Wow, I finally agree with you well for the end part. I never really got into placing characters into these categories as it's different writers and different opinions and us the fans trying to make logical sense of it all is just never going to happen.

zopzop
Originally posted by King Kandy
Basically, you're suggesting we just make everything up and discard on-panel showings in order to conform to this arbitrarily selected list of standards?

King Kandy, what we are trying to say is, you have too many characters performing too many ridiculous feats. When you have earthbound characters outperforming upper level abstractions, you've written yourself into a corner story wise.

What can the LT or Eternity or Chaos King do that can compare to Mad Jim Jaspers and Wanda Maximoff. These two humans have performed OMNIversal feats!

Jamie Braddock and Franklin Richards are universe level reality warpers.

This nonsense has to be reigned in or there's nowhere else to go in terms of story.

Konton
Originally posted by carver9
Everything that I'm saying is coming directly from on panel showings... on panel.

Wolverine enhanced (low)
Spiderman enhanced (low)
Sabertooth enhanced (low)
Black panther enhanced (low)
Captain america enhanced (low)
Midnighter enhanced (low)
Batman enhanced (low)
Lady shiva enhanced (low)
Deathstroke enhanced (low)

Enhanced high

Blue marvel
Wonder woman
Power girl
None confidense sentry
Supergirl
Martian manhunter
Orion (rage could boost him to low herald)


Low herald

Thor. (Versatility could move him up to mid)
Superman (versatility could move him up to mid)
Firelord
Hulk
Juggernaut
Konvikt
Magneto
Nate grey (versatilty could potentially move him up to mid)
Black adam
Gladiator
Captain marvel
Sentry (confident)
Beta ray bill

Can't think of any mids... will edit my post.

High Herald (I know some of these peoplecan beat the other but I am basing this off of pure power... not on a "who can win bases"wink

Surfer
Power Gem Drax
Champion with the gem or bands
Thanos (potentially low trans)
Void
Hal (could have sworn that I have seen him wreck small planets)

I will do the rest later... just using the main characters.

See, this is why it doesn't work.

Shiva and Midnighter on the same tier?
Wondy and Supergirl on the same tier?
Superman an entire tier above J'onn and Wondy with the capability to move UP because he's 'versatile?' rofl. More versatile than J'onn? Or even Diana with standard gear? Captain Marvel a tier above Wondy when she's physically stalemated him on panel?

These things should be based on match-ups because thats what the tier list is for; to assist as a reference point for unfamiliar characters in a versus forum.

Allankles
Originally posted by zopzop
King Kandy, what we are trying to say is, you have too many characters performing too many ridiculous feats. When you have earthbound characters outperforming upper level abstractions, you've written yourself into a corner story wise.

What can the LT or Eternity or Chaos King do that can compare to Mad Jim Jaspers and Wanda Maximoff. These two humans have performed OMNIversal feats!

Jamie Braddock and Franklin Richards are universe level reality warpers.

This nonsense has to be reigned in or there's nowhere else to go in terms of story.

Characters like Jaspers and Richards are not used that often, and if Marvel hire a clever writer to work those characters they'll likely get retconned. That or just make them like Mxy, popping in every now and again for mischief.

Gecko4lif
This is very wrong.

You should be ashamed of yourself by how bad this is,

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by zopzop
King Kandy, what we are trying to say is, you have too many characters performing too many ridiculous feats. When you have earthbound characters outperforming upper level abstractions, you've written yourself into a corner story wise.

What can the LT or Eternity or Chaos King do that can compare to Mad Jim Jaspers and Wanda Maximoff. These two humans have performed OMNIversal feats!

Jamie Braddock and Franklin Richards are universe level reality warpers.

This nonsense has to be reigned in or there's nowhere else to go in terms of story.

++

This is exacly what I am trying to say...

See, King Kandy, what I suggest is that they blow things up and start all over; retcon virtually everyone and "attempt" to place just a little logic and consistency into some of the feats that these various characters are capable of...

With a breakdown like the one I have provided, atleast you have a guildeline in place; even if you dont agree with the power levels of the tiers I have provided, atleast get one in place that makes sense and stick to it...that'll do wonders as pertains achieving something like 'suspension of disbelief.'


And Zop is correct; if you have Earth-bound humans and Earth bound Gods shaking reality and performing omniverse level feats, where does that place Abstracts and High Powered Cosmics?

As Zop correctly stated...you have painted yourself into a corner by going overboard with feats.

TheLordofMurder
@Allankles

Do you really think it makes sense to have Superman that powerful and durable!? You really think he should be capable of withstanding a blast that is capable of destroying a solar system!? You have any idea the level of power that would require??

If you have him that powerful you start the inflation effect all over again; to make interesting stories now you are going to have to create a whole gang of characters capable of taking him on and harming him...

What about Supes allies? If they cant perform on his level, then they are of no use to him and it destroys suspension of disbelief to have someone on Wonder Womans level or Batman's level assisting him...so now either he will be allyless or his allies will all have to be able to 'power solar systems,' bust planets, ect, ect...

No, what you propose makes no sense and places comics exactly where they currently are; a place where you have characters performing insane feats that are completely logic defying (even by comicbook standards)...

What you propose is the exact thing that should regulated on a much shorter leash...


LoL (actually this should be CoL; crying out loud)...

You think Surfer destroying Galactus level beings and Thor busting Celestials makes sense...wow...just wow.

sad

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by King Kandy
Basically, you're suggesting we just make everything up and discard on-panel showings in order to conform to this arbitrarily selected list of standards?

And no, I am suggesting that Marvel/DC themselves discard everything and start over and that they craete a list of standards and conform to them...

Or rather, if it were up to you, would you put a guildeline in place for your writers...and if so...how would it break down?

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by zopzop
Excellent tiering!

If anyone from Marvel/DC reads these forums, I hope they take a good look at this list. IMHO, you have WAAAY to many extreme level feats out in comics nowadays. It becomes so bad, each new storyline has to "one up" the previous one and it just winds up becoming moronic.

You have human beings, mutantsn affecting reality on an OMNIversal scale! The freaking LT, supposedly the second in command at MU, is only MULTIversal. How is this possible?

You have earth based deities : wrecking galaxies, shaking the universe/multiverse, and affecting all planes of existence when they clash.

Keep in mind godlike abstractions haven't been shown doing anything that level EVER.

I sound like a broken record but as proof I give you :

Odin/Seth fighting (mutliverse shaking, etc...)
Eric Masterson THor/Dargo Thor fighting (universe shaking)
Vulcan/Black Bolt fighting (destroying PARSECS long stretches of space!)
Surtur forging his sword (destroying a galaxy to forge a sword)
Hulk (thunderclapping and destroying a dimension!)
Wanda Maximoff throwing a *** fit (rearranging the OMNIverse)
Mad Jim Jaspers (destroying universes like sand castles and threatening the OMNIverse)
Franklin Richards (universe level psionic power)
Jammie Braddock (universe, at least, level reality warping power)

I'm sure I'm missing others but you get my drift. Where has the Living Tribunal, Galactus, Order/Chaos, Death, Eternity, etc.. been shown doing half that?

I understand also that it's just a comic, but when you have humans affecting the OMNIverse, then how are abstracts supposed to compete? THere's nothing greater than an OMNIverse so what's left for them to do?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Honestly I think your tiers need a lot of work, you jump in power far to quickly. Many of marvels characters and most popular to boot fall under the enhanced area which is far to small and broad.

Fair enough...

How would you break things down?

Q99
Problem: You just put every martial artist and weapon master character at 'low enhanced,' with a few teen sorts being down at 'high street,' and pretty much 90% of characters are jammed within Enhanced.

Low street should be low *heroic* street. Still well above a normal person, someone like Spoiler or starting-out Tim Drake or so on.

High street is someone who's approaching peak human abilities.

Originally posted by Allankles
Tiers as they are now are fine.

Agreed, but I do think we need to do an update of who's in them. I don't know where the last tiering was but I remember it having some odd errors.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Q99
Problem: You just put every martial artist and weapon master character at 'low enhanced,' with a few teen sorts being down at 'high street,'

I disagree...

A score equals 20; no martial artist is realistically going to beat up 40 people (remember I said scores of normal people at low enhanced) at the same time with little effort; unless they are superhuman in some form or fashion...in which case low enhanced is exactly where they belong.

As pertains a weapons master, remember I did say defeat scores of normal humans with little effort; unless you have a fully automatic assault rifle or something similar, a weapons master is not going to defeat 40 or more normal humans with "little effort" unless he is superhuman...

As pertains teens being high street, remember, I would retcon virtually everyone...and I am sorry, I dont know of a teen alive that could stand up to Brock Lesnar (or someone of his caliber); Captain America and Batman...sure...but a teenager?? No...no way. He is way too fast and way too strong for a teenager; regardless of their skill level...he'd just athletically overwhelm them.


Now if you were to tier it as you propose:
Street Level
Low: Low heroic.
Mid: Mid heroic.
High: Peak human.

I could definitely buy that...as that does make sense and features logic! smile

Konton
I don't think you're factoring in comic martial arts.

Even mid level fighters can take down hoards of fodder.

carver9
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Allankles

Do you really think it makes sense to have Superman that powerful and durable!? You really think he should be capable of withstanding a blast that is capable of destroying a solar system!? You have any idea the level of power that would require??

If you have him that powerful you start the inflation effect all over again; to make interesting stories now you are going to have to create a whole gang of characters capable of taking him on and harming him...

What about Supes allies? If they cant perform on his level, then they are of no use to him and it destroys suspension of disbelief to have someone on Wonder Womans level or Batman's level assisting him...so now either he will be allyless or his allies will all have to be able to 'power solar systems,' bust planets, ect, ect...

No, what you propose makes no sense and places comics exactly where they currently are; a place where you have characters performing insane feats that are completely logic defying (even by comicbook standards)...

What you propose is the exact thing that should regulated on a much shorter leash...


LoL (actually this should be CoL; crying out loud)...

You think Surfer destroying Galactus level beings and Thor busting Celestials makes sense...wow...just wow.

sad

For the past 3 to 4 years, no one really hasn't been perform these types of feats. I honestly believe that the writers are already trying to balance things out. If you use feats from at least a 3 year radius, the tier system should be perfect BUT things don't work like that.

TheLordofMurder
@carver9

Hmmm, you do have a point; I havent seen much in the way of the insane feats that we've been subject to in decades past...

But without some guildelines in place (maybe they have them now...who knows), I am certain that they'll resurface...

Edit: Hulk was going to bust Earth during World War Hulk wasnt he? He didnt actually do it, but since this occured 3 years ago, it goes to show that the writers still have it in them to have herald level characters busting planets...

TheLordofMurder
And come to think about it, Rulk appeared in 2008; 2 years ago and thrashed King Thor and punched out Uatu...

No, the insane feats continue...they arent as numerous as they once was.

Desaad
Originally posted by zopzop
King Kandy, what we are trying to say is, you have too many characters performing too many ridiculous feats. When you have earthbound characters outperforming upper level abstractions, you've written yourself into a corner story wise.

What can the LT or Eternity or Chaos King do that can compare to Mad Jim Jaspers and Wanda Maximoff. These two humans have performed OMNIversal feats!

Jamie Braddock and Franklin Richards are universe level reality warpers.

This nonsense has to be reigned in or there's nowhere else to go in terms of story.

Only if you demand everything be perfectly consistent, which it needn't be.

Just tell good stories and you're fine, regardless of power levels. Yes, some of the best books of all time are all about low power levels. And some of the best books of all time are all about massive, stupid power levels.

It doesn't matter a whit.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Desaad
Only if you demand everything be perfectly consistent, which it needn't be.

Just tell good stories and you're fine, regardless of power levels. Yes, some of the best books of all time are all about low power levels. And some of the best books of all time are all about massive, stupid power levels.

It doesn't matter a whit.

It does matter...

For example, if one month Thor is rocking the universe in a battle, but the next month he gets KO'ed by Juggs...that is immersion breaking and takes me out of the story with one of those "wtf" moments.

Or if Superman withstands the force of a ground zero nuclear detonation, but a few months later gets KO'ed by an exploding gas station...dude, that screams "wtf!!"


Now I do agree with you that writing a good story trumps all, but would it hurt to have some consistency? I thought Hunter/Prey was an excellent read for example...but Doomsday not being erased by the Omega Effect was pure PIS...and seeing that did take me out of the story briefly.

Anyway, I think having some consistency and guidelines to what kind of feat various characters are capable of performing matters.

Desaad
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
It does matter...

For example, if one month Thor is rocking the universe in a battle, but the next month he gets KO'ed by Juggs...that is immersion breaking and takes me out of the story with one of those "wtf" moments.

Why?



Why? The important aspect of the story is the internal drama of it, not arbitrary feats.

I'm all for consistency, but not at the expense of storytelling. And these contradictory situations have been popping up for as long as comics have been made. The Silver Age had Hal Jordan get knocked out by a falling tree branch and rekindling a dying sun to full strength in the same issue, and those stories were fine.




I think consistency is good, so long as it doesn't hurt the quality of the story. But I don't think it's a necessity, especially between varying writers. Should Morrison not be able to tell the type of Superman stories he wants to tell because Robinson wants to tell smaller, more personal stories that demand a less powerful Superman?

You see what I'm saying?

Continuity is an awesome tool when used correctly, but I think a lot of modern fans have twisted it into something that hurts, rather than enhances, a story.

Desaad
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
And come to think about it, Rulk appeared in 2008; 2 years ago and thrashed King Thor and punched out Uatu...

No, the insane feats continue...they arent as numerous as they once was.

That's a new character, anyway.

Insane feats for standard characters still happen, but they're much less the norm than they once were. Maybe creating a Black Hole for the Surfer was the last huge one I can remember for any character, and that was 2006? Thor hasn't had anything, Superman hasn't had anything, Green Lantern hasn't had anything, etc.

It's all just space cheese anyway, though.

Omega Vision
This tier suggestion places far too much emphasis on the collateral damage aspect.

dmills
I like the thinking. But you have to distinguish between power level and power-set. People like Thor and Norrin have power-sets that allow them to perform,amazing feats, so it makes sense when they do crazy stuff like create a black hole. Power level is a different beast all together.

Allankles
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
You think Surfer destroying Galactus level beings and Thor busting Celestials makes sense...wow...just wow.

sad

These guys epitomize the concept of the super hero, so trying to put a strict cap on them is a pointless excercise. Different writers will have different power levels for these characters. PC Superman was the way he was becuse at the time he was considered the epitome of power as far as superheroes go. Some writers will still see him that way.

As far as Surfer defeating Galactus level beings goes: I said he manipulated energy that could fell such beings. I didn't say he had the power to do it, but that he could manipulate an energy wave powerful enough to do it. Reading comprehension dude.

And busting a Celestial's armor isn't far fetched for Thor.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Desaad
Superman hasn't had anything

read Superman Beyond.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Thanos is a skyfather.. that is the only correction needed to our current system

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Allankles
These guys epitomize the concept of the super hero, so trying to put a strict cap on them is a pointless excercise. Different writers will have different power levels for these characters. PC Superman was the way he was becuse at the time he was considered the epitome of power as far as superheroes go. Some writers will still see him that way.

As far as Surfer defeating Galactus level beings goes: I said he manipulated energy that could fell such beings. I didn't say he had the power to do it, but that he could manipulate an energy wave powerful enough to do it. Reading comprehension dude.

And busting a Celestial's armor isn't far fetched for Thor.

I know exactly what happened with Surfer and A&T and I know about Thor breaking a hole in Exitars armor; I excell at reading comprehension btw...

And I still contend that the Surfer being able to manipulate the Big Crunch energies was a feat far beyond what a high herald should be able to do; thats something that should be the strict province of an Abstract or High Powered Cosmic...not someone as far down the totem pole as the Silver Surfer.

As for Thor breaking a hole in Celestial Armor, the 2000ft Asgardian Destroyer failed to damage Celestial Armor with its punches but Thor can pierce it with Mjolnir!?

No...just no...feats like those just contribute to the inflation effect in comics.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I know exactly what happened with Surfer and A&T and I know about Thor breaking a hole in Exitars armor; I excell at reading comprehension btw...

And I still contend that the Surfer being able to manipulate the Big Crunch energies was a feat far beyond what a high herald should be able to do; thats something that should be the strict province of an Abstract or High Powered Cosmic...not someone as far down the totem pole as the Silver Surfer.

As for Thor breaking a hole in Celestial Armor, the 2000ft Asgardian Destroyer failed to damage Celestial Armor with its punches but Thor can pierce it with Mjolnir!?

No...just no...feats like those just contribute to the inflation effect in comics. You can't pick and choose which feats count and which do not. Odin did damage celestial armor yet it simply reformed. You say you excel in reading comprehension yet you get called on it in practically every thread.

Thor also damaged one with a godblast but it didn't really damage the celestial at all in terms of their capabilities so what's your problem with it ? Seriously, I mean Thor ran off Galactus with one prior to so if anything they are being consistent.

Gecko4lif
You have to be a high elder god to destroy a sun?

That is retarded. Nova is an elder god now then I guess.

Correction.

HIGH elder god

TheLordofMurder
I am just pointing out inconsistencies Quan...

And Odin damaged the Celestials Armor with the Oversword of Asgard...not with punches; my contention is that if the 2000ft Destroyer couldnt damage Celestials with blunt attacks, then neither should Thor be able to...come on man...think.


@Gecko

If you disagree with my tierings, create a tier list that makes sense and scales appropiately then; and keep in mind what it means for the characters above High Elder God when you have High Elder Gods going beyond what I have them doing...

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Gecko4lif
You have to be a high elder god to destroy a sun?

That is retarded. Nova is an elder god now then I guess.

Correction.

HIGH elder god

If Nova can destroy a star, then Nova should be retconned...

quanchi112
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I am just pointing out inconsistencies Quan...

And Odin damaged the Celestials Armor with the Oversword of Asgard...not with punches; my contention is that if the 2000ft Destroyer couldnt damage Celestials with blunt attacks, then neither should Thor be able to...come on man...think.


@Gecko

If you disagree with my tierings, create a tier list that makes sense and scales appropiately then; and keep in mind what it means for the characters above High Elder God when you have High Elder Gods going beyond what I have them doing... When did Thor damage a celestial's armor off a punch ? What are you even talking about ?

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by quanchi112
When did Thor damage a celestial's armor off a punch ? What are you even talking about ?

Ok, I'll take it slow with you Quan...

Thor damaged Celestial Armor (Exitars) with a hammer strike...which is a blunt attack.

The 2000ft Destroyer failed to damage Celestial Armor with a punch...which is a blunt attack.

If the 2000ft Destroyer failed to harm Celestial Armor with a blunt attack, then Thor should fail to do so as well...especially since the Destroyer Armor is supposed to be more durable than Thors hammer.

Got it?

Gecko4lif
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Gecko

If you disagree with my tierings, create a tier list that makes sense and scales appropiately then; and keep in mind what it means for the characters above High Elder God when you have High Elder Gods going beyond what I have them doing... Dont tempt me.

The fact of the matter is that your "new" system fails not only one 1 level but multiple levels and goes against DECADES of established continuaty in the medium it is seeking to "organize"

TheLordofMurder
I never said Thor damaged Celestial Armor with a punch btw...

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Dont tempt me.

I encourage you to do so; thats what I asked you all to do in the OP...

Just make sure its consistent and makes sense though...

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Dont tempt me.

The fact of the matter is that your "new" system fails not only one 1 level but multiple levels and goes against DECADES of established continuaty in the medium it is seeking to "organize"

The same continuity that has high heralds shaking the universe as a side effect of their battles?

The same continuity that has Skyfathers threatening the entire universe as a side effect of their battles?

The same continuity that has the Hulk DESTROYING an entire dimension with a thunder clap?

With that in mind I propose that your "DECADES of establish continuity" is severely broken then...

carver9
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@carver9

Hmmm, you do have a point; I havent seen much in the way of the insane feats that we've been subject to in decades past...

But without some guildelines in place (maybe they have them now...who knows), I am certain that they'll resurface...

Edit: Hulk was going to bust Earth during World War Hulk wasnt he? He didnt actually do it, but since this occured 3 years ago, it goes to show that the writers still have it in them to have herald level characters busting planets...

The only reason rulk did so good against thor was due to his power absorption... if it wasn't for that, odin force thor would have rocked him.

You can't find thor or supes or hulk doing those insane things that they use to do back in the early to late 90s... it just doesn't exist anymore. Then if you look at everything that has recently happened with each character, you can tell that they have been placed at their normal power level. In the past writers use to state that thor could crush planets and had him doing planetary feats... currently, one writer stated that he is physically equal to ares and another stated that it would take thor years to destroy a planet and even then, he still might not be able to do it.

We have people saying that hulk culd destroy planets but yet he strained to pull planet sakaar back together.

We also had a writer state that surfer isn't a planetary threat (even though a couple of month before saying this, he shedded a small planet just by powering up). Then we had surfer casually being defeated by some norm space ships during the beta ray bill saga but back in the day he busted through ships like candy.

Then we have supes destroying a moon but being koed afterwards and it taking the entire kryptonian race to move a moom whereas back in the 90s it took only 3 members of the jla to actually accomplish these types of feats.

I never depected these people as planetary level beings from the get go because they do not have the feats. Look at thanos (even though he is very powerful)... he was pissed that he was brought back and wasn't holding anything back while blasting away... why wasn't he creating nuke like explosions or busrting planets up during this rage like people portray him as being capable of doing. Even if he was at 50% of his power, if you are able to shed planets, you should be cable of outright destroying a city with a casual blast.

carver9
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Ok, I'll take it slow with you Quan...

Thor damaged Celestial Armor (Exitars) with a hammer strike...which is a blunt attack.

The 2000ft Destroyer failed to damage Celestial Armor with a punch...which is a blunt attack.

If the 2000ft Destroyer failed to harm Celestial Armor with a blunt attack, then Thor should fail to do so as well...especially since the Destroyer Armor is supposed to be more durable than Thors hammer.

Got it?

Thor was amped when he did this.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by carver9
Thor was amped when he did this.

Thor had his Battle Armor (which ups his durability) and his Belt of Power (which doubles his strength)...

Even with those items, he shouldnt be able to strike with 1/10000 of the force that the 2000ft Destroyer (which contained the spirits of Odin plus all the asgardians at the time) could strike with...

TheLordofMurder
@carver9

And to comment on your previous post, they are getting better about not having various characters perform outlandish feats, but they still have some work to do...

zopzop
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Thor had his Battle Armor (which ups his durability) and his Belt of Power (which doubles his strength)...

Even with those items, he shouldnt be able to strike with 1/10000 of the force that the 2000ft Destroyer (which contained the spirits of Odin plus all the asgardians at the time) could strike with...

OMG how could I forget this "feat". LoM it's actually worse than you describe. It wasn't just Odin + all Asgard in the Destroyer Armor. The Destroyer Armor was gifted by power from the heads of all the Pantheons on Earth. So it was Odin + all Asgard + the fraction of power bestowed upon the Destroyer armor by all the Skyfathers on Earth failing to dent a Celestial. But Thor + Belt of Strength + "Thor Armor" punching a whole in Arshiem's armor.

Unbelievable.

quanchi112
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I never said Thor damaged Celestial Armor with a punch btw... Then what's your problem with both being able to destroy Celestial armor yet both being incapable of doing any real damage to one.Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Ok, I'll take it slow with you Quan...

Thor damaged Celestial Armor (Exitars) with a hammer strike...which is a blunt attack.

The 2000ft Destroyer failed to damage Celestial Armor with a punch...which is a blunt attack.

If the 2000ft Destroyer failed to harm Celestial Armor with a blunt attack, then Thor should fail to do so as well...especially since the Destroyer Armor is supposed to be more durable than Thors hammer.

Got it? When did Odin use a hammer ? He didn't so what's so wrong with both the hammer and the sword doing damage......seriously ?

So what ? Neither did any real damage that couldn't be immediately restored so you're just trying to decide what counts and what doesn't which is the most biased way of thinking of all.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Allankles


And busting a Celestial's armor isn't far fetched for Thor. Odin+Zeus+Vishnu combined there might and couldnt even put a scratch on one, then thor comes along and shatters through one of there armors .......

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Odin+Zeus+Vishnu combined there might and couldnt even put a scratch on one, then thor comes along and shatters through one of there armors .......

Ah ha, I forgot this too. Colossus is right, three high level (the most powerful?) skyfathers combine their blast and Arshiem didn't even get tickled. Thor smashes Exitar's ("who dwarfs even Arshiem in size and power"winkarmor all by his lonesome? Very very bad writing.

quanchi112
Originally posted by zopzop
Ah ha, I forgot this too. Colossus is right, three high level (the most powerful?) skyfathers combine their blast and Arshiem didn't even get tickled. Thor smashes Exitar's ("who dwarfs even Arshiem in size and power"winkarmor all by his lonesome? Very very bad writing. Nah, that was a very good story and excellent writing.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Then we have supes destroying a moon but being koed afterwards and it taking the entire kryptonian race to move a moom whereas back in the 90s it took only 3 members of the jla to actually accomplish these types of feats.

isolated incidents, not the norm.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by quanchi112
Nah, that was a very good story and excellent writing. not really iirc a high herald level person came along and destroyed arishems hand(or one of them i cant remember)

not to mention thor went toe-to-toe with odin in the same arc , i have the scans

Omega Vision
@ the "took the entire Kryptonian race to move the Moon" part, I look at it the same way as I do the scene of COIE where it took dozens of heroes (a few of which were planet movers) to keep the Monitor's satellite from crashing/falling apart. It's a matter of dramatic tension causing an exaggeration of the challenge/understatement of the powers. IE: PIS.

Also was there actual indicators that the entire pop of NK was required?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
not really iirc a high herald level person came along and destroyed arishems hand(or one of them i cant remember)

not to mention thor went toe-to-toe with odin in the same arc , i have the scans Writer's don't adhere to these mysterious power levels so to speak and it's still very apparent even though Thor did so that Odin is still more powerful than he is. Feats are window dressing is all.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Omega Vision
@ the "took the entire Kryptonian race to move the Moon" part, I look at it the same way as I do the scene of COIE where it took dozens of heroes (a few of which were planet movers) to keep the Monitor's satellite from crashing/falling apart. It's a matter of dramatic tension causing an exaggeration of the challenge/understatement of the powers. IE: PIS.

Also was there actual indicators that the entire pop of NK was required?

it was Robinson; nobody cares.

Desaad
Originally posted by zopzop
Ah ha, I forgot this too. Colossus is right, three high level (the most powerful?) skyfathers combine their blast and Arshiem didn't even get tickled. Thor smashes Exitar's ("who dwarfs even Arshiem in size and power"winkarmor all by his lonesome? Very very bad writing.

Only if one assumes that Exitar's shell is necessarily as stronger or stronger than Arishem's.

The fact that Thor was able to break through it, and that Susan Storm was able to totally destroy it, indicates that it is not -- especially when one recalls that for all of Thor's efforts, he didn't actually hurt Exitar.

He could be more powerful, and simply have a weaker shell.

zopzop
Originally posted by Desaad
Only if one assumes that Exitar's shell is necessarily as stronger or stronger than Arishem's.

The fact that Thor was able to break through it, and that Susan Storm was able to totally destroy it, indicates that it is not -- especially when one recalls that for all of Thor's efforts, he didn't actually hurt Exitar.

He could be more powerful, and simply have a weaker shell.

Sue Storm killing Exitar had to do with the fact that her force fields come from the same power source as the Celestials energy or something. It was PIS/CIS at it's finest but at least they gave an explanation.

Thor has no such excuse. Exitar > all the 4th Host. Hence why it's annoying.

Colossus-Big C
Susan Storm>Thor?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Susan Storm>Thor? No, it's just a case with her being perfect for the job like Drax was against Thanos if Thanos has his back turned only Drax can do what he did to Thanos not even Galactus can replicate the feat.

TheLordofMurder
Originally posted by zopzop
Sue Storm killing Exitar had to do with the fact that her force fields come from the same power source as the Celestials energy or something. It was PIS/CIS at it's finest but at least they gave an explanation.

Thor has no such excuse. Exitar > all the 4th Host. Hence why it's annoying.

++

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Badabing
I was gonna leave this closed but a lot of effort went into making the thread. I'll check this tomorrow and if things are on topic with no arguing, flaming, trolling, spamming, etc then maybe we can leave it open for a while. Do your job!

Lord_Talron
Originally posted by quanchi112
Wow, I finally agree with you well for the end part. I never really got into placing characters into these categories as it's different writers and different opinions and us the fans trying to make logical sense of it all is just never going to happen. im going to have to agree with this as well. the majority of people who read comics are looking for a good story rather than making sure that they toe the line with what we view them able to do.

not to say we here shouldnt categorize them. just that the comic book companies shouldnt change the way they write stories just to make the lives of some nerds who argue if superman beats thor, easier.

zopzop
Originally posted by Lord_Talron
not to say we here shouldnt categorize them. just that the comic book companies shouldnt change the way they write stories just to make the lives of some nerds who argue if superman beats thor, easier.

Wanda Maximoff and MJJ blowing up (or having the ability to blow up) the OMNIverse while the second in command in MU (the LT) is only a MULTIversal power, is moronic.

Franklin RIchards and Jamie Broddock having universal level feats that even Eternity or Infinity don't have is moronic.

Two Thors clanging hammers and shaking the universe while no upper level abstraction has ever been shown doing such is moronic.

Odin and Seth almost destroying all creation as an after effect of their throw down screams idiocy. The entire Infinity Gauntlet affair, with almost all the cosmic hierarchy was still only a problem for ONE universe.

Surtur displaying MORE destructive power output by just forging his sword than the combined assault of the cosmic hierarchy vs Thanos with the IG is moronic.

How are you supposed to write interesting stories with garbage like that flying around? Marvel, I cant' speak for DC, needs a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" type story where everything is reset and they start over again. Because as it is now, what can the next "big thing" villain do that's not already been done 3 times over by human mutants?

What's greater than an OMNIverse?

Allankles
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
I know exactly what happened with Surfer and A&T and I know about Thor breaking a hole in Exitars armor; I excell at reading comprehension btw...

And I still contend that the Surfer being able to manipulate the Big Crunch energies was a feat far beyond what a high herald should be able to do; thats something that should be the strict province of an Abstract or High Powered Cosmic...not someone as far down the totem pole as the Silver Surfer.

As for Thor breaking a hole in Celestial Armor, the 2000ft Asgardian Destroyer failed to damage Celestial Armor with its punches but Thor can pierce it with Mjolnir!?

No...just no...feats like those just contribute to the inflation effect in comics.

Eh, you have to keep in mind that "high herald" is a forum tier, not one enforced in the comics. So given the circumstances I don't see what's so far fetched about Surfer at his utmost limit directing energies to destroy foes like T&A after deflecting/manipulating a very potent energy stream.

As far as Thor busting armor, again remember in the comics he's a bonified god, not a high herald (as the forums determine by averages), so with that in mind, how is it far fetched? You mention later how the gods failed to stop the 4th celestial host, I always felt that story gimped the gods a little.

I mean celestials are not quite the type of meta cosmic entities to dust off an attack from a concert of the most powerful gods in the MU like it's nothing.

Should the celestials prevail? Sure, given how they've been depicted, but they should take some losses too. Writing about characters with a great deal of power (or lack thereof) doesn't mean you stop telling a story.

Allankles
Originally posted by Lord_Talron
im going to have to agree with this as well. the majority of people who read comics are looking for a good story rather than making sure that they toe the line with what we view them able to do.

not to say we here shouldnt categorize them. just that the comic book companies shouldnt change the way they write stories just to make the lives of some nerds who argue if superman beats thor, easier.

stick out tongue Exactly, everything is compromised for the sake of the story being told. If the story is great this isn't a problem, it might rankle a few fans and rattle some of our favorite heroes/villains in the process, but that's better than a bad story with bad character potrayals.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Lord_Talron
im going to have to agree with this as well. the majority of people who read comics are looking for a good story rather than making sure that they toe the line with what we view them able to do.

not to say we here shouldnt categorize them. just that the comic book companies shouldnt change the way they write stories just to make the lives of some nerds who argue if superman beats thor, easier. Pretty much and I understand that and it's a good story that I look for. People just have to leave that at home when they come on here but some are unable to.

753
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Skyfathers are (or rather should be...IMHO of course) planetary level Gods...

So yeah, being able to manipulate matter/energy on a planetary scale makes perfect sense IMHO; it makes alot more sense than an Earth level god busting galaxies as a side effect of his battles... what you're proposing is shifting the ranks down the power ladder though. SS would be a skyfather by your acount. The problem is that the terms like herald, skyfather, elder god and cube being are used for actual characters in comics and they're all stronger than what you portrayed. SS can crush a plent with a thought and explode stars, Odin could easily destroy a galaxy. Cthon and Set can span dimensions wide. The cube beings have warped dozens of dimensions and affected the whole universe. Lower end Abstracts like shuma Gporath consume and conquer entire realities.

TheLordofMurder
Again, for those of you that disagree with the way I would tier things, I challenge you to create a tier listing of your own...one thats scales appropiately and makes sense mind you.


@753

I would retcon the Surfer; IMHO a high herald has no business exploding stars.


Also, make a tiering list as I did and see how it turns out; I am anxious to see it, as you would have high heralds destroying stars and low abstracts destroying realities...

753
Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
Again, for those of you that disagree with the way I would tier things, I challenge you to create a tier listing of your own...one thats scales appropiately and makes sense mind you.


@753

I would retcon the Surfer; IMHO a high herald has no business exploding stars.


Also, make a tiering list as I did and see how it turns out; I am anxious to see it, as you would have high heralds destroying stars and low abstracts destroying realities... Yes, I would but that's pretty much how things already go in comics. Silver surfer has created a black hole and reignited a star. He hasn't exploded one on panel to my knowledge yet, but Nova, often considered the weakest Herald, has. She didn't crush the star or anything, she used energy manipulation to set the explosion off, but yes, these are the levels heralds pack.

I'll try and make a tier list later.

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