Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

WW has full gear. See pic.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/37768/1532776-16_11_large.jpg

vs

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/57606/1340984-fate_large.jpg

Quasar wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Quasar wins.

You are unreliable on any matters involving WW.


---
I haven't read a lot of Quasar but I think they both get a good share of wins.

Originally posted by Q99
You are unreliable on any matters involving WW.


---
I haven't read a lot of Quasar but I think they both get a good share of wins. You are too pro WW here. Quasar wins. I give Hal the majority over her as well. She's almost there but not with the elite top tiers.

Originally posted by Q99
You are unreliable on any matters involving WW.


---
I haven't read a lot of Quasar but I think they both get a good share of wins.

Agreed.

Dude she has full gear here.

I'll note this isn't her full-full gear. No gauntlet of Atlas or armor. Just axe, arrows, and shield. Which help a little, but not a ton.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You are too pro WW here.

But you regularly blatantly underestimate her without being able to back it up. You've undermined your credibility on any match involving her by just always saying she loses.



Her performance record disagrees.

Go ahead and add her gauntlets.

Yeesh, she should take it then. Not many heralds can take on geared Wondy.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Dude she has full gear here. It helps but doesn't change the outcome.

Originally posted by Q99
I'll note this isn't her full-full gear. No gauntlet of Atlas or armor. Just axe, arrows, and shield. Which help a little, but not a ton.

.

But you regularly blatantly underestimate her without being able to back it up. You've undermined your credibility on any match involving her by just always saying she loses.



Her performance record disagrees. Wrong. Give me examples of this. Of her performances against elite top tiers.

How is it wrong?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
How is it wrong? I'm saying he's wrong with regards to her performance record against them.

Diana has held her own against Superman and shattered a DD clone as his strength was doubling with the Gauntlets. It increases her strength ten fold, IIRC.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Diana has held her own against Superman and shattered a DD clone as his strength was doubling with the Gauntlets. It increases her strength ten fold, IIRC. No, she fled from Superman showing she can't hold her own. The other time Supes fought her he pwned her easily.

A dd clone isn't equal to DD and batman killed a DD clone before. Just like I said she doesn't match up well against elite top tiers.

I'd bet on Quasar against Wonder Woman in a standard-gear fight. Don't know what to make of the fight if she's got her enchanted weapons. What does she have, and what do they do?

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I'd bet on Quasar against Wonder Woman in a standard-gear fight. Don't know what to make of the fight if she's got her enchanted weapons. What does she have, and what do they do?

Sandals of Hermes and Gauntlets of Atlas.

I can see her taking majority if she has full gear.
Quasar win standard gear Wondy though

Oh, if she does have the Gauntlet, she wins. Strength amp by 10x will let her just overpower him. It turns from a fairly good matchup to a rather one-sided affair.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Wrong. Give me examples of this. Of her performances against elite top tiers.

Cut Superman's throat and had him at her mercy in Sacrifice, dealt with Doomsdayified Superman driven into a mindless rage by Circe, stalemated him on several other occasions, stalemated Captain Marvel in War of the Gods (and broke his enchantment too), beat Zoom, beat speed-god Wally Flash, beat Circe, beat the Queen of Fables, Ares, Genocide (who previously ripped through John Stewart, Firestorm, and Red Tornado like they were nothing), some other gods... took out the entire JLA solo in League of One, then took down the monster that was prophesied to kill the league.


It's not like this is news. Wonder Woman fights Superman all the time and the most common result is a draw. Some losses, some wins. Her rogues gallery includes several trans people.

White Demon??

Originally posted by Prep-Man
White Demon??

That too. We are not exactly talking a shortage of powerful foes here.

And really, quanchi knows this stuff, it's come up in plenty of threads he's been at.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh, if she does have the Gauntlet, she wins. Strength amp by 10x will let her just overpower him. It turns from a fairly good matchup to a rather one-sided affair.



Cut Superman's throat and had him at her mercy in Sacrifice, dealt with Doomsdayified Superman driven into a mindless rage by Circe, stalemated him on several other occasions, stalemated Captain Marvel in War of the Gods (and broke his enchantment too), beat Zoom, beat speed-god Wally Flash, beat Circe, beat the Queen of Fables, Ares, Genocide (who previously ripped through John Stewart, Firestorm, and Red Tornado like they were nothing), some other gods... took out the entire JLA solo in League of One, then took down the monster that was prophesied to kill the league.


It's not like this is news. Wonder Woman fights Superman all the time and the most common result is a draw. Some losses, some wins. Her rogues gallery includes several trans people. She cut his throat after fleeing from him. Supes temp ko'd her with one punch and that shows how out of her league she was.

She didn't fight Marvel long and marvel has stalemated Superman in strength and ko'd him on occasion. These guys are in the same league whereas WW isn't.

I am sure you are leaving out a lot of context here with these feats I am unaware of.

WW isn't in Superman's league. Ninety nine percent favor Superman over her in a forum matchup proving she isn';t in his league. Those who are it's not as onesided as it tends to get when you pit WW against an elite top tier.Originally posted by Prep-Man
White Demon?? Has done what ?

WW isn't too far off of Supes strength, but with the gauntlets she is stronger.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
WW isn't too far off of Supes strength, but with the gauntlets she is stronger. Quasar won't be taking her head on in a contest of strength anyways.

I never know what's up with the "Gasp! What do you mean, Wonder Woman is strong?? I've never seen anything to suggest that! Certainly not the dozen or so times she's fought Superman over the years, often to a near-standstill, or her rogue's gallery full of trans opponents with the odd Skyfather, or the tons of times she's fought other major supervillains in the JLA and her own book," people. Especially when it's people who've been in the forum for awhile and certainly have heard of this.


Originally posted by quanchi112
She cut his throat after fleeing from him. Supes temp ko'd her with one punch and that shows how out of her league she was.

After leaving him knocked down in a crater... not moving... and she wasn't fleeing, she was going after Max, then Superman came at her directly and lost. There were three sub-clashes in that fight and she won two of them. Superman never had a chance to take her out for good- which he was trying to do the entire time, while she did take him down and render him helpless in a situation she could've easily followed up on.

How can you just ignore 2/3rds of the fight and not note that as anything but bias? Or expect us to not notice that you're doing that?

He temp-KOed her, not long enough to exploit, she turned it around and cut his throat.

The writer of the fight even said he's got the edge in flight but she does on the ground.


Anyway, whine whine, excuse excuse, she clearly was fighting very well against him, and she's fought him to a stalemate on many other occasions (For Tomorrow being another) where no serious injury happens.

That was absolutely no-hold-back Superman, which most opponents don't get to meet, and she turned around a tough situation into a win.




Marvel's only KOed Superman with suckerpunches. WW's beaten him head on (a slim minority of the time and she's always in bad shape afterwards, and she fully admits he's stronger, but still, she's pulled it out and CM hasn't).




Yea, here's the thing: You're presented with a dozen foes and incidents and you immediately write them all off without reason.


That's sad, you've got no credibility or backing for your point. You write her off and her whole history entirely.... just because?

Wanna know the context of the Genocide thing? Geno came, fought the league, trashed John Stewart, Firestorm, and Red Tornado utterly and without question head on, then later in a one-on-one fight Diana killed her.




Not according to Superman. Or Batman. Heck, according to Batman, Martian Manhunter isn't in her league.



No, that proves he's somewhat more powerful overall. Which he is, he's the strongest on Earth, and Diana'll even tell you he's more powerful. That's not the same thing as a different league. Well, any more than Captain Marvel isn't in his league (She's done better than Billy against him historically, and Superman rarely uses anything other than physical strength against Batson).

Many people in that 99%, which includes me btw, will tell you that it'll be a good fight. Because it is and has been, on, well, almost every time they've fought with rare exception, and it's a solid amount of fights including some major ones.



What? Sorry, that grammar's just tortured.

Anyway, she's fought a ton of elite top tiers, trans, etc. foes and regularly does well against them. Your argument relies on ignoring pretty much her entire track record because.... what? Because you say so? Because you don't want to? I don't know, you don't actually have much of a point.




No, but neither did Sinestro, and we all know how that turned out (Hint: WW won).

Let me see, a flying brick that's MAGIC based vs Quasar?

She wins minimum 7/10.

Quasar has any specific magic weakness?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Sandals of Hermes and Gauntlets of Atlas.

....just needs that lasso one time. At her level, she is one of the few ultimate mid-long range distance one shot characters.

Diana destroys him.

Originally posted by Q99
I never know what's up with the "Gasp! What do you mean, Wonder Woman is strong?? I've never seen anything to suggest that! Certainly not the dozen or so times she's fought Superman over the years, often to a near-standstill, or her rogue's gallery full of trans opponents with the odd Skyfather, or the tons of times she's fought other major supervillains in the JLA and her own book," people. Especially when it's people who've been in the forum for awhile and certainly have heard of this.




After leaving him knocked down in a crater... not moving... and she wasn't fleeing, she was going after Max, then Superman came at her directly and lost. There were three sub-clashes in that fight and she won two of them. Superman never had a chance to take her out for good- which he was trying to do the entire time, while she did take him down and render him helpless in a situation she could've easily followed up on.

How can you just ignore 2/3rds of the fight and not note that as anything but bias? Or expect us to not notice that you're doing that?

He temp-KOed her, not long enough to exploit, she turned it around and cut his throat.

The writer of the fight even said he's got the edge in flight but she does on the ground.


Anyway, whine whine, excuse excuse, she clearly was fighting very well against him, and she's fought him to a stalemate on many other occasions (For Tomorrow being another) where no serious injury happens.

That was absolutely no-hold-back Superman, which most opponents don't get to meet, and she turned around a tough situation into a win.




Marvel's only KOed Superman with suckerpunches. WW's beaten him head on (a slim minority of the time and she's always in bad shape afterwards, and she fully admits he's stronger, but still, she's pulled it out and CM hasn't).




Yea, here's the thing: You're presented with a dozen foes and incidents and you immediately write them all off without reason.


That's sad, you've got no credibility or backing for your point. You write her off and her whole history entirely.... just because?

Wanna know the context of the Genocide thing? Geno came, fought the league, trashed John Stewart, Firestorm, and Red Tornado utterly and without question head on, then later in a one-on-one fight Diana killed her.




Not according to Superman. Or Batman. Heck, according to Batman, Martian Manhunter isn't in her league.



No, that proves he's somewhat more powerful overall. Which he is, he's the strongest on Earth, and Diana'll even tell you he's more powerful. That's not the same thing as a different league. Well, any more than Captain Marvel isn't in his league (She's done better than Billy against him historically, and Superman rarely uses anything other than physical strength against Batson).

Many people in that 99%, which includes me btw, will tell you that it'll be a good fight. Because it is and has been, on, well, almost every time they've fought with rare exception, and it's a solid amount of fights including some major ones.



What? Sorry, that grammar's just tortured.

Anyway, she's fought a ton of elite top tiers, trans, etc. foes and regularly does well against them. Your argument relies on ignoring pretty much her entire track record because.... what? Because you say so? Because you don't want to? I don't know, you don't actually have much of a point.




No, but neither did Sinestro, and we all know how that turned out (Hint: WW won). Entirely incorrect. Her avoiding being tossed into the sun and being temp ko'd back into earth's atmosphere isn't her winning the struggle it's her escaping with her life.

She did go after Max but other than trying to stop the hold he had over Superman was the fact she couldn't take a direct assault by him head on which was proven the entire time. She snuck up behind him which more than likely would never happen outside Superman's mindset to clang his eardrums. She then used birds to distract him so she could escape. being woken up in earth's atmosphere because one punch ko'd you isn't showing you are in his league. She was resourceful enough with her abilities to later capitalize on his sheer blood lust.

Most long time Superman fans not me have a huge problem with this as he was so willing to kill when we've seen him in the same exact situation with Lois' pretend death yet he didn't kill calling this completely out of character. To me I see different writers doing whatever they want so inconsistencies happen all the time and as a fan we have to deal with them. That's just my humble opinion.

That situation was the perfect storm for her and she barely did so through even these circumstances and fleeing the scene is a bfr and a loss anyways. Superman definitively proved she can't take his best she needs to run for her life.

Marvel's stalemated him on strength before WW can't do so. Marvel is a peer to Superman on practically every level whereas WW isn't. That's the point. Ww also suckered him in that fight right on the domepiece.

Issue numbers for genocide ? I will look through this myself.

They might respect her as an opponent with comments here or there but come on how many statements could I pull with no one is powerful enough to stop Superman if he loses it or he's the most powerful jla member which includes WW.

How has WW done better against billy than Superman has ?

What have I ignored ?

I am not suggesting she gets just raped I just see her losing this fight.

What issue did Sinestro take on WW ? I may change my opinion too upon reading this.

Honestly, I'd rather debate Apocalypse with Tyrant than reason with Quanchi.

WW vs Quasar is such a strange match up...

Originally posted by Konton
Honestly, I'd rather debate Apocalypse with Tyrant than reason with Quanchi. What's wrong with my reasoning here ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
What's wrong with my reasoning here ?

Underselling Wonder Woman at every available opportunity in order to hype cosmic Marvel, straw-manning author "intent" to further your own argument, misrepresenting the Superman conflict, putting certain herald level characters one step above someone who routinely competes with/stalemates/defeats them. Take your pick.

Originally posted by Konton
Underselling Wonder Woman at every available opportunity in order to hype cosmic Marvel, straw-manning author "intent" to further your own argument, misrepresenting the Superman conflict, putting certain herald level characters one step above someone who routinely competes with/stalemates/defeats them. Take your pick. It has nothing to do with marvel and dc I don't see her with the top brass on the dc side either. I didn't misrepresent the Superman fight at all the Ww side has.

What issue did she defeat Sinestro in ?

Originally posted by Q99
Oh, if she does have the Gauntlet, she wins. Strength amp by 10x will let her just overpower him. It turns from a fairly good matchup to a rather one-sided affair.



Cut Superman's throat and had him at her mercy in Sacrifice, dealt with Doomsdayified Superman driven into a mindless rage by Circe, stalemated him on several other occasions, stalemated Captain Marvel in War of the Gods (and broke his enchantment too), beat Zoom, beat speed-god Wally Flash, beat Circe, beat the Queen of Fables, Ares, Genocide (who previously ripped through John Stewart, Firestorm, and Red Tornado like they were nothing), some other gods... took out the entire JLA solo in League of One, then took down the monster that was prophesied to kill the league.


It's not like this is news. Wonder Woman fights Superman all the time and the most common result is a draw. Some losses, some wins. Her rogues gallery includes several trans people.

You and I both know the context of some of these situations aren't as you are making them out to be.

Originally posted by Warlord
Quasar has any specific magic weakness?

Yes/No, his Quantum Bands are useless against it. He can't manipulate, drain, or otherwise affect it.

That only leaves him with his energy constructs against her. And those things aren't exactly sturdy. The Thing has destroyed them as have others. Diana > the Thing in strength and add in MYSTIC weapons and you got Quasar running for his life.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It has nothing to do with marvel and dc I don't see her with the top brass on the dc side either. I didn't misrepresent the Superman fight at all the Ww side has.

http://goo.gl/vPSq0

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes/No, his Quantum Bands are useless against it. He can't manipulate, drain, or otherwise affect it.

That only leaves him with his energy constructs against her. And those things aren't exactly sturdy. The Thing has destroyed them as have others. Diana > the Thing in strength and add in MYSTIC weapons and you got Quasar running for his life.

Dude. What about this?

http://img57.imageshack.us/i/field.jpg
http://img65.imageshack.us/i/field2.jpg

Quasar is the man.

Originally posted by Konton
http://goo.gl/vPSq0 That's what I do even better than google.

Originally posted by Stoic
I agree with this.

Same here.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Dude. What about this?

http://img57.imageshack.us/i/field.jpg
http://img65.imageshack.us/i/field2.jpg

Quasar is the man.

Bad writing? Has he ever been shown doing something like that again? The Thing, Thor, Half-Life, and others have broken his constructs. Diana can too. Or she can just use her magic weapons to cut right through them like they aren't even there.

Originally posted by zopzop
Bad writing? Has he ever been shown doing something like that again? The Thing, Thor, Half-Life, and others have broken his constructs. Diana can too. Or she can just use her magic weapons to cut right through them like they aren't even there. Didn't Galactus struggle before to break through his constructs iirc ?

Originally posted by zopzop
Bad writing? Has he ever been shown doing something like that again? The Thing, Thor, Half-Life, and others have broken his constructs. Diana can too. Or she can just use her magic weapons to cut right through them like they aren't even there.

Didn't Diana break Quasar's shields in JLA/Avengers? Or was that someone else? Remember, it's canon in DC.

It can't be canon unless the owners of the characters say its canon.

Kurt said it was canon for DC, I believe. He's not the owner of WW, but he wrote the story.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Didn't Galactus struggle before to break through his constructs iirc ?

If true that's sad as hell :

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7219/quasar1003.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Kurt said it was canon for DC, I believe. He's not the owner of WW, but he wrote the story. That has no relevance to what marvel says. If marvel says venom beating superman is canon to them and dc denies it you have nothing.

Originally posted by zopzop
If true that's sad as hell :

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7219/quasar1003.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us I honestly can't remember though but I am pretty sure he was impressive against Galactus in some manner just can't recall exactly and too lazy to put in my quasar disk and hunt for it.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Kurt said it was canon for DC, I believe. He's not the owner of WW, but he wrote the story.

No, I mean the owner of the Marvel characters. They determine what is canon for their characters.

In Marvel history, it never happened, so the characters you see in a crossover can be deemed nothing more than one of many alternate reality versions.

Originally posted by zopzop
Bad writing? Has he ever been shown doing something like that again? The Thing, Thor, Half-Life, and others have broken his constructs. Diana can too. Or she can just use her magic weapons to cut right through them like they aren't even there.

Really?
I mean com on. Picking low showings for Quasar to debate his constructs durability?
He has held Galactus attacks, Watchers attacks, Nova bursts, fought the surfer and even the scans already provided by CC.
All characters have low and high showings. Stating that all one need is Thing level strength to beat his constructs is low balling at best.
Even the latest showings in TI show that his constructs can withstand tremendous amounts of damadge.

Also the fact that he cannot drain/manipulate magic is irrelevant in this fight since Diana has no magic energy deposits for him to drain or deplete.
Diana wins this fight ONLY if she has full gear

This is how it would go down.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8264/sconstructs7tx.jpghttp://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8264/sconstructs7tx.jpg

not at all

Dang where is fangirl101 when you need here, does she still post on here?

No suprise the DC-Man using lowballing tactics in favour WW

Originally posted by quanchi112
I honestly can't remember though but I am pretty sure he was impressive against Galactus in some manner just can't recall exactly and too lazy to put in my quasar disk and hunt for it.
It was in FF, in the Invisible Cosmic Johnny the Herald Saga arc. Quasar was holding off Galactus's sustained eye blasts. It didn't really make clear for how long, but Galactus said he was "exasperated" by it and looked somewhat annoyed. A few panels and actions later they were still shown going at it with Galactus still trying to eyeblast Quasar. In fact really Galactus had more trouble with Quasar's shields than with Thanos's, which he just blasted right through leaving Thanos a simpering wreck. Finally Johnny relieves Quasar at which point Galactus stops blasting and threatens to reabsorb the Herald power that he has given Johnny.

As for "Thing broke his shields" Quasar became progressively more powerful over the years as learned to use the bands better. In later appearances he was quite capable of blocking guys of Thing's level and had learned new powers too.

But the thing I hate about DC-Marvel fights is the speed blitz advantage which comes from DC giving so many characters such ridiculous speed as compared to Marvel characters. It's annoying because they often don't use speedblitz at all against their own villains even in serious fights. Still, even with all that I'd give Quasar at least 6/10 against regular WW anyway - but they both have ways of taking each other out. Fully geared WW has an advantage though, she is even more ridiculous.

Originally posted by basilisk
It was in FF, in the Invisible Cosmic Johnny the Herald Saga arc. Quasar was holding off Galactus's sustained eye blasts. It didn't really make clear for how long, but Galactus said he was "exasperated" by it and looked somewhat annoyed. A few panels and actions later they were still shown going at it with Galactus still trying to eyeblast Quasar. In fact really Galactus had more trouble with Quasar's shields than with Thanos's, which he just blasted right through leaving Thanos a simpering wreck. Finally Johnny relieves Quasar at which point Galactus stops blasting and threatens to reabsorb the Herald power that he has given Johnny.

As for "Thing broke his shields" Quasar became progressively more powerful over the years as learned to use the bands better. In later appearances he was quite capable of blocking guys of Thing's level and had learned new powers too.

But the thing I hate about DC-Marvel fights is the speed blitz advantage which comes from DC giving so many characters such ridiculous speed as compared to Marvel characters. It's annoying because they often don't use speedblitz at all against their own villains even in serious fights. Still, even with all that I'd give Quasar at least 6/10 against regular WW anyway - but they both have ways of taking each other out. Fully geared WW has an advantage though, she is even more ridiculous. I doubt that was a well nourished Galactus. I am sure this happened before Thanos' series too which means Thanos' shields were much more powerufl than Quasar. Still not a bad feat for the blondie.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I doubt that was a well nourished Galactus. I am sure this happened before Thanos' series too which means Thanos' shields were much more powerufl than Quasar. Still not a bad feat for the blondie. It was after the end of the Thanos series so maybe that means Quasar's shields were more powerful then? The rest is just your opinion. All we really saw was Quasar's shields held up better of the two and he wasn't simpering at the end of the encounter. But as is often the case Galactus was kind of lowballed in both stories anyway. We just have to accept a bit of PIS here and there.

It'd have made more sense if she had used her tiara instead of just brute force there in JLA/Avengers, if you ask me.



Yea, she escaped with her life, came back, and won, despite having injuries from the first part.

How convenient to overlook that. Yea, she used tactics and skill to beat one of the top top-tier heralds. Which, is what she does, it's part of her ability set. It's entirely silly to discount that because with that, she's top-tier.



And WW has more abilities than Marvel and overall does better than him clearly. She's a better fighter and has more powers.

That's like saying "Superman loses to X, as long as he doesn't use heat vision, freeze breath, or speed or flight."

Then Superman doesn't really lose to X and isn't less powerful because he has all those things. Same with WW.



Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You and I both know the context of some of these situations aren't as you are making them out to be.


What, precisely, is the misleading context of a list?

But really, this is standard. "Here's a dozen examples of her beating against characters of the type asked. Oh, but they're without context, therefore I must conclude that I should disregard them all because that's misleading!"

Every single one of those has her doing well against top-tier herald levelers, and most of 'em were in strait fights. Obviously not ones like her taking down the JLA, but that's still really impressive.

The undercutting WW gets from some posters is pathetic.

Originally posted by Silent Guardian
This is how it would go down.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8264/sconstructs7tx.jpghttp://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8264/sconstructs7tx.jpg

Or not.

Since a non-low balled Quasar won't suffer that kind of bullshit.

Originally posted by Q99
Every single one of those has her doing well against top-tier herald levelers, and most of 'em were in strait fights. Obviously not ones like her taking down the JLA, but that's still really impressive.

The undercutting WW gets from some posters is pathetic. In all fairness though, I think fights against mind-controlled, hypnotized, gone-insane opponents should not always be considered prime examples in cases where said opponent is stalemated or defeated. Often the affected character fights like a CIS-afflicted idiot, not using the full range of their powers and fighting with less skill or strategy than usual. Also there is the question of how far their faculties and reflexes are affected, and how much they are consciously or subconsciously fighting the effect - either distracting them or holding them back. A lot of these fights just don't seem quite right.

Though they can give some indication of a fight especially where no other examples are available, you can't blame people for not always accepting them as strong evidence.

On the other hand if an opponent is under mind control or crazy and still wins... that probably says something.

It does for showing the ability to beat someone of top-tier power. And Superman was still using tactics, his powers in combination and thinking for himself, so he wasn't like normal puppet mind control, he was simply given a vision to make him rage.

Anyway, she's fought Superman lots of times and done well when he's not under any influence.

For that matter the only time she's even gotten major injuries in their fights instead of just hitting back and forth (ala how CM does) is... well, when he's either influenced to not hold back at all, or externally boosted. Most of the fights it's standard hit for hit stalemate, without being pushed to the edge they can stand against each other for awhile.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Dude. What about this?

http://img57.imageshack.us/i/field.jpg
http://img65.imageshack.us/i/field2.jpg

Quasar is the man.

I will note that with gauntlet, WW's got more raw power than all of those.

Still an excellent showing.

Originally posted by basilisk
It was after the end of the Thanos series so maybe that means Quasar's shields were more powerful then? The rest is just your opinion. All we really saw was Quasar's shields held up better of the two and he wasn't simpering at the end of the encounter. But as is often the case Galactus was kind of lowballed in both stories anyway. We just have to accept a bit of PIS here and there. Galactus was well nourished and specifically commented on it. What iss ue of ff or do you have the scans ?

Originally posted by Q99
It'd have made more sense if she had used her tiara instead of just brute force there in JLA/Avengers, if you ask me.



Yea, she escaped with her life, came back, and won, despite having injuries from the first part.

How convenient to overlook that. Yea, she used tactics and skill to beat one of the top top-tier heralds. Which, is what she does, it's part of her ability set. It's entirely silly to discount that because with that, she's top-tier.



And WW has more abilities than Marvel and overall does better than him clearly. She's a better fighter and has more powers.

That's like saying "Superman loses to X, as long as he doesn't use heat vision, freeze breath, or speed or flight."

Then Superman doesn't really lose to X and isn't less powerful because he has all those things. Same with WW.






What, precisely, is the misleading context of a list?

But really, this is standard. "Here's a dozen examples of her beating against characters of the type asked. Oh, but they're without context, therefore I must conclude that I should disregard them all because that's misleading!"

Every single one of those has her doing well against top-tier herald levelers, and most of 'em were in strait fights. Obviously not ones like her taking down the JLA, but that's still really impressive.

The undercutting WW gets from some posters is pathetic. The point was one all out punch ko'd her. That shows she ins't in his league which proves my entire case. She needs to avoid and flee for her life and maybe she can gain the upper hand like she did against a mindcontolled Supes.


Ww is more highly skilled yes, but she relies heavily on her own skill and despite this is still at a huge disadvantage because they are stronger and more durable which this fight proved.

Superman's more effective than WW and in a direct macthup he can ko her as soon as he connects. Her fleeing from him isn't proof she's in his league. Use some common sense.

I don't think you're factoring in the whole HE WAS NEXT TO THE SUN thing into the "one punch ko" crap.

Originally posted by Konton
I don't think you're factoring in the whole HE WAS NEXT TO THE SUN thing into the "one punch ko" crap. I didn't see the writer implying an amp in that scene at all. When he's amped by the sun the dialogue or art makes it clear. This wasn't the case.

I don't think you see anything that inconveniences the legitimacy of whatever you want to believe.

Originally posted by Konton
I don't think you see anything that inconveniences the legitimacy of whatever you want to believe. No, I always go by what I believe is the writer's intention he wasn't going for sun amp there. The times he was sun amped or the sun aided him it was either directly referenced or the art clearly showed it. This did neither.

http://goo.gl/rivpA

He dragged her into the surface of the sun, man. How can you possibly argue he didn't receive some kind of boost after looking at the first panel?

Diana speed blitz lasso FTW.

Originally posted by Konton
http://goo.gl/rivpA

He dragged her into the surface of the sun, man. How can you possibly argue he didn't receive some kind of boost after looking at the first panel? The writer never implied one.

Originally posted by Q99
I will note that with gauntlet, WW's got more raw power than all of those.

Still an excellent showing.

I don't believe this for a second.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
I don't believe this for a second.

The gauntlets of atlas multiply the users strength by ten. So if Wondy is just marginally behind Superman in strength regularly, the atlas amp makes her ridiculous.

Time for h1 maffs

Superman < 10

Originally posted by Konton
The gauntlets of atlas multiply the users strength by ten. So if Wondy is just marginally behind Superman in strength regularly, the atlas amp makes her ridiculous.

Time for h1 maffs

Superman < 10

Yea, it's really not even close considering there's a mere 3 class 100s there.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, it's really not even close considering there's a mere 3 class 100s there.

someone doesn't know what "class 100" means, I take it. Drax with the power gem was also "class 100".

That version of hulk looks like "professor" hulk (who iirc lacked the ability to amp his power like the other hulks do) but Hercules and Thor have no defined limits to their strength level.

Thor hitting something *with mjolnir* does even more damage than a barehanded attack as well- AND it's a horrendously powerful magic item that seems to do nothing vs. quasar's shields.

There's no way you can definitively argue that wonderwoman with the gauntlets hits harder than hercules + thor with mjolnir combined, since marvel hasn't seen fit to put a limit on where their strength level actually is. is it a 100 tons? a thousand? ten thousand? a billion? several billion? it's not hard to come up with feats that can successfully argue for ALL of these.

ONE "class 100" could beat wonderwoman amped with those gauntlets, depending on how that class 100 was written and what his/her feats were.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
someone doesn't know what "class 100" means, I take it. Drax with the power gem was also "class 100".

That version of hulk looks like "professor" hulk (who iirc lacked the ability to amp his power like the other hulks do) but Hercules and Thor have no defined limits to their strength level.

Ok. Wonder Woman's more in like with Herc and Thor than Prof Hulk to begin with.




Sure I can, since she's the same way. She helps moves moons and planets and fights with Superman all the time and can exchange blows with him for awhile and hurt him.

That, times 10.

Thor and Herc don't have a precise limit, but that's not the same thing as having unlimited strength.




Mmm... it'd have to be a 'class 100' a whole lot stronger than Thor and Herc and so on, because she's around their level to begin with, unless you're arguing Marvel characters are far stronger than DC ones.

Originally posted by Q99


Ok. Wonder Woman's more in like with Herc and Thor than Prof Hulk to begin with.

This at least I agree with. professor hulk's strength level is so low as to be irrelevant here.



This is where your logic falls apart. "helping to move the moon" isn't really much of a feat, since superman and MM were "helping" to move it as well, and superman is definitively stronger. Do we know how much of that is diana's strength? not really. Even if we assume the weight is distributed evenly (and we really shouldn't) that top end feat is only 1/3 of the moon's mass.

on the other hand, we have Thor withstanding the crushing weight of 20 planets (a score=20)

immobilizing savage hulk for an hour

generating enough force to knock the earth-not the moon- out of orbit while arm wrestling with hercules

Lifts an item iron man describes as "millions of tons." IM and vision are helping, but both are nowhere near 100 tons, let alone millions.

hits hard enough that the shockwaves vaporize mountains, and rock the planet- he has the belt of strength here so he's at 2x- but we're arguing thor PLUS hercules here.

Add to that things like moving the midgard serpent that equals the earth in mass, Throwing his hammer at 3x lightspeed, lifting the world engine, lifting all of asgard (with beta ray bill)- Thor's strength feats are flat out better than wonder woman's.

The issue is we don't know HOW much stronger a top end thor is. Current colossus is "class 100", but thor is EASILY in excess of 10 or 20 times stronger- despite being "class 100." Thor COULD be 2x, 3x, or even 10x stronger than wonder woman is- marvel hasn't seen fit to define that, and hercules is his equal.



they don't need "unlimited strength"- by feats it's already obvious thor and hercules are stronger. just how MUCH stronger is what's in question. If either one is 5x stronger than she is (and that's a distinct possibility) then the gauntlets of strength don't allow her to hit stronger than they do combined. And I don't need to argue that ALL marvel characters are stronger, I just need to argue that THOSE two are stronger than wonder woman.

if this was Superman or Captain Marvel, it'd be a different argument. But we're getting off track. my point here was that throwing around the term class 100 like they're all equivalent-and they aren't- is a stupid way to try and make an argument. just because Thor is a class 100, and wonder woman is class 100, does not mean that wonder woman x10 is equal to ten thors.

Anyone who doesn't think Wonder Woman is in the same rough strength class as Hercules is smoking something.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Anyone who doesn't think Wonder Woman is in the same rough strength class as Hercules is smoking something.

Hercules is stronger, if we assume that he's the equal of Thor.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Hercules is stronger, if we assume that he's the equal of Thor.
I love how you give Herc the benefit of the doubt for fighting Thor but don't give the same to WW for her fights with Superman.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I love how you give Herc the benefit of the doubt for fighting Thor but don't give the same to WW for her fights with Superman.

because hercules has fought thor to a standstill for weeks, with neither holding back. Herc has also stalemated savage hulk as Thor has done. Per marvel in more than one circumstance they're equals in regards to raw strength. reference the arm wrestling feat for a very easy example of this.

Wonder woman has NEVER done anything on the same level with superman.

edit: I should probably clarify that thor has enough abilities on top of his strength that he should annihilate classic hercules 9 times out of 10. it's just in terms of pure strength they're equivalent.

plus... Hercules and Thor both acknowledge it to be so as the Marvel's editorial staff..

Superman and WW dont have the same dynamic and acknowledgment by battle nor staff...

usually its said she is in their strength class but not equal to it just near or close and in battle she has bn shown to be severely outclassed by supes in strength more then once.

Originally posted by King Castle
plus... Hercules and Thor both acknowledge it to be so as the Marvel's editorial staff..

Superman and WW dont have the same dynamic and acknowledgment by battle nor staff...

usually its said she is in their strength class but not equal to it just near or close and in battle she has bn shown to be severely outclassed by supes in strength more then once.

precisely.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, it's really not even close considering there's a mere 3 class 100s there.

Wut? Did you not understand why I think its far-fetched?

Because apparently a few class 100s are the only things hitting it in your view?

There is no way WW+gauntlets ('10x' multiplier be damned) outstrips the combined Force/PSI output of:

Thor (Masterson's inexperience aside had no less raw power as Thor)
Hulk
Hercules
Colossus
Sasquatch
Thing
She-Hulk
Rogue
Jean's blasts
Wolverine's adamantium claws
Cyke's Optic Blasts
Iceman's blasts
Human Torch's blasts

There's a few I don't recognize too, one of them appears to Wonderman. I think I see Maxam too.

A little help for the few I missed?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Wut? Did you not understand why I think its far-fetched?

Because apparently a few class 100s are the only things hitting it in your view?

There is no way WW+gauntlets ('10x' multiplier be damned) outstrips the combined Force/PSI output of:

Thor (Masterson's inexperience aside had no less raw power as Thor)
Hulk
Hercules
Colossus
Sasquatch
Thing
She-Hulk
Rogue
Jean's blasts
Wolverine's adamantium claws
Cyke's Optic Blasts
Iceman's blasts
Human Torch's blasts

There's a few I don't recognize too, one of them appears to Wonderman. I think I see Maxam too.

A little help for the few I missed?

you missed havok (in an awful, awful costume), what I'm pretty sure is either the vision or a horrible coloring error and thunderbird.

for the record though, most of this list is chaff. The big dogs doing damage here should be:

Havok
She Hulk
Hercules
Thor
Cyclops

and maybe Sasquatch or Professor Hulk. I'm not sure precisely where the max strength level of those two was then.

everyone else is putting out under 100 tons worth of force. WW should be in the thousands or tens of thousands.

Incorrect.

All of those guys are outputting far over a 100 tons of force. 100 tons is small as hell in relative terms. a modest sized boulder.

Well, all of those guys except wolverine.

He's not outputting 100 tons of force, but he's outputting an unspeakable amount of PSI (a unit of pressure, which is entirely different to force, as it has to do with surface area and the latter does not) due to his adamantium claws. Considering the types of people he's hurt, friggin Thanos for one, for the shield to tank his claws is a massive showing.

And yes classic Sasquatch was very comfortably into class 100. Professor Hulk was strong as hell, don't know where people got the idea that he's weak. He just amped slower than Savage but was much stronger at base.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Wut? Did you not understand why I think its far-fetched?

Because apparently a few class 100s are the only things hitting it in your view?

There is no way WW+gauntlets ('10x' multiplier be damned) outstrips the combined Force/PSI output of:

Thor (Masterson's inexperience aside had no less raw power as Thor)
Hulk
Hercules
Colossus
Sasquatch
Thing
She-Hulk
Rogue
Jean's blasts
Wolverine's adamantium claws
Cyke's Optic Blasts
Iceman's blasts
Human Torch's blasts

There's a few I don't recognize too, one of them appears to Wonderman. I think I see Maxam too.

A little help for the few I missed?

Lesse, there's 13 people on that list, and Colossus, Thing, Sas, She-Hulk, Rogue, Jean (in that version), Wolverine, Human Torch (non-Nova), and Iceman (who's doing normal chill-blasts and nothing approaching herald level) are all dishing out quite a bit less power than Thor/Herc, often a fair bit less than half as much. Ditto Cycs if he's not really going all-out, which he doesn't appear to be coming remotely near.

I don't see Maxam (I did see what appears to be Thunderbird, who hardly matters at all, he was what, class 5 at the time? Or 25?). Break most of those heroes (the actual herald-levels aside) into groups of 3-4 and WW still significantly outpowers most of the groups you could make.


So yes, WWx10 is stronger than that list combined. So is Hercx10 or Thorx10. A few people in the same strength league plus 10~ who are well below that level aren't going to match up to someone of this levelx10.


Swap everyone there but Herc out for 9 more Hercs, and there'd be a significant increase in hitting power there.

WIth all her gear Wonderwoman would win. Without it, Quasar would win

Originally posted by Naija boy
WIth all her gear Wonderwoman would win. Without it, Quasar would win

i'm thinking Wonder woman rapping her lasso around her knuckles would demolish the construct due to it;s magic attributes...

that would seriously screw with Quasar..

plus magic sword that is enchanted to slice/cut and Quasar not knowing about him might get him seriously maimed if not killed by wonder woman depending how we are depicting her CIS in this battle.

Originally posted by King Castle
i'm thinking Wonder woman rapping her lasso around her knuckles would demolish the construct due to it;s magic attributes...

that would seriously screw with Quasar..

plus magic sword that is enchanted to slice/cut and Quasar not knowing about him might get him seriously maimed if not killed by wonder woman depending how we are depicting her CIS in this battle.

That's what she does against Green Lanters.

But yeah, I'd give Quasar the edge with standard equipment. Not a stomp.

With full gear? Wonder Woman kills him so hard it isn't even funny.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Hercules is stronger, if we assume that he's the equal of Thor. I agree.

Originally posted by Konton
That's what she does against Green Lanters.

But yeah, I'd give Quasar the edge with standard equipment. Not a stomp.

With full gear? Wonder Woman kills him so hard it isn't even funny.

Do you recall WW ever going up against a top tier GL other than Sinestro?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Do you recall WW ever going up against a top tier GL other than Sinestro?

She's fought Kyle a few times, though I don't think it was ever for real.

^ She's punched Guy Gardner and lived to tell about it (for now). That's a feat in and of itself.

Originally posted by Q99
It does for showing the ability to beat someone of top-tier power. And Superman was still using tactics, his powers in combination and thinking for himself, so he wasn't like normal puppet mind control, he was simply given a vision to make him rage. Still, he was mad and fought like an enraged fool for most of it. It's just not fair to judge good showings against mind controlled characters. There was a fair amount of PIS/CIS in that fight.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Galactus was well nourished and specifically commented on it. What iss ue of ff or do you have the scans ? Around 510-515 maybe? I saw scans of it somewhere.

Originally posted by basilisk
Still, he was mad and fought like an enraged fool for most of it.

Except that he used his powers in combination more than he does almost all the time too. It's not like he was fighting like a dumb brick, he was using superspeed, strength, and ranged powers in combination. He was even reacting to Diana's threats like avoiding the lasso the one time she used it.

He was fighting enraged and thus left some openings but he was remembering his powers more than 90%+ of fights out there. Aggressive, but not dumb.




But, the question was, "Does Wonder Woman have the power to fight someone with top-tier power?" and enraged Superman counts as much in that (or possibly more-so since he's actually putting out more power) as normal more cautious Superman, it's just dealing with a different tactical scenario. So the answer is without a doubt "Yes," it's just not normal Superman.

She's fought and stalemated normal more cautious Superman too, and those cases tend to go like Supes/CM fights- that is to say, hitting back and forth with no real injury. The implication seems to be that he needs to be going enraged/all out in order to deal damage fast.



Not much, it was a pretty good fight and one of the better in terms of power usage with both pulling out all the stops. Although the writer did chose to mostly ignore the lasso (she used it in only one attack, even though it's obviously an easy win? Clearly to make things more dramatic).

Originally posted by basilisk
Still, he was mad and fought like an enraged fool for most of it. It's just not fair to judge good showings against mind controlled characters. There was a fair amount of PIS/CIS in that fight. An instantaneous superspeed blitz while shooting heat vision and superspeeding towards the Sun, which would kill Diana and simultaneously also amp Superman...

... is Superman acting like an enraged fool?

Sounds exactly like how KMCers want Superman to fight.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
An instantaneous superspeed blitz while shooting heat vision and superspeeding towards the Sun, which would kill Diana and simultaneously also amp Superman...

... is Superman acting like an enraged fool?

Sounds exactly like how KMCers want Superman to fight. Do you honestly think the writer intended to have Superman amped in this scene ?

Quasar beats Diana.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ She's punched Guy Gardner and lived to tell about it (for now). That's a feat in and of itself.

I can't believe you say such filthy things!

Originally posted by quanchi112
The writer never implied one. wait let me get this straight:

1.) superman gets his strength from yellow sun radiation
2.) you get more radiation the closer you are to the sun
3.) superman was close enough to the sun that pretty much anyone or anything wouldve been incinerated

yet the writer has to state that he was getting a boost from being close to the sun for it to have happened?

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
wait let me get this straight:

1.) superman gets his strength from yellow sun radiation
2.) you get more radiation the closer you are to the sun
3.) superman was close enough to the sun that pretty much anyone or anything wouldve been incinerated

yet the writer has to state that he was getting a boost from being close to the sun for it to have happened?

(Just walk away from it. Quan has been being intellectually dishonest about this topic, and a few others, for years now apparently. Nothing short of Diana's lasso actually existing in real life could force the truth out of him in this situation... just walk away...)

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
wait let me get this straight:

1.) superman gets his strength from yellow sun radiation
2.) you get more radiation the closer you are to the sun
3.) superman was close enough to the sun that pretty much anyone or anything wouldve been incinerated

yet the writer has to state that he was getting a boost from being close to the sun for it to have happened? Just because one writer has superman gain more power from being close to the sun aka against Seid doesn't mean all writers do so. I get this is his power but writers still can portray him as they want to and I see no reason to suggest he was portrayed like he was against Seid.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Just because one writer has superman gain more power from being close to the sun aka against Seid doesn't mean all writers do so. I get this is his power but writers still can portray him as they want to and I see no reason to suggest he was portrayed like he was against Seid. no, its fact that the closer you get to the sun the more radiation you are exposed to. in fact supes should get an amp just by leaving earth because of the earths atmosphere shielding the earth from solar radiation

Originally posted by tideoftime
(Just walk away from it. Quan has been being intellectually dishonest about this topic, and a few others, for years now apparently. Nothing short of Diana's lasso actually existing in real life could force the truth out of him in this situation... just walk away...) thats ok, i kno what im dealing with and i enjoy it. as does he im sure

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
no, its fact that the closer you get to the sun the more radiation you are exposed to. in fact supes should get an amp just by leaving earth because of the earths atmosphere shielding the earth from solar radiation That's only if the writer decides to portray him as dramatically stronger in his story as each writer varies and one had him sundipped whereas we've never seen anything like that nor will probably again. All comes down to the writer and I don't see him being portrayed as amped at all in this scene.

but he is. the scans show him close to the sun.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
but he is. the scans show him close to the sun. The writer in no one implies an amp though. If you believe so tell me why.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Just because one writer has superman gain more power from being close to the sun aka against Seid doesn't mean all writers do so. I get this is his power but writers still can portray him as they want to and I see no reason to suggest he was portrayed like he was against Seid.


Multiple writers do, it's standard for him.

Welp, by this logic, I guess we don't actually know that they were even near the sun because the narration left that part out... I suppose this means he never punched her that far back to earth at all!

Originally posted by Q99
Multiple writers do, it's standard for him. No, I disagree it should be but isn't always the case.

Originally posted by Konton
Welp, by this logic, I guess we don't actually know that they were even near the sun because the narration left that part out... I suppose this means he never punched her that far back to earth at all! He's always had this level of power imo.

Originally posted by Lord_Talron
but he is. the scans show him close to the sun.

yep.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, I disagree it should be but isn't always the case.


Your basis of disagreeing seems to be that you don't want it to be true.


I mean, it wasn't very long so it shouldn't be a big amp, but that's how it normally works.

Originally posted by Q99
Your basis of disagreeing seems to be that you don't want it to be true.


I mean, it wasn't very long so it shouldn't be a big amp, but that's how it normally works. Not in this case imo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Not in this case imo.

But, why?

Again, you just seem to not want it to be true. That's not much reason.

It seems perfectly in line with the kind of tactics Superman was showing in the fight.

I don't know why you even try, Q.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I don't know why you even try, Q.

Originally posted by Black bolt z


Seriously. It's like trying to talk to a sock puppet. Actually worse.

To go back to an earlier point in the thread, when has thing broke a quasar construct?
And has anyone ever seen anything on panel to suggest he struuggles with magic?

Cheers!

During the Serpent Crown affair. Quasar was working for Project Pegasus. He was controlled by the Serpent Crown. He held thing up in Quantum cuffs. Thing smashed them.

Plus when Quasar was applying for Avengers membership after the Atlantis Attacks affair, he admitted to Captain America that "they (his constructs) were pretty sturdy, having take repeated blows from the Thing. But I doubt he was going all out."

He dies vs magic. Mordrid put the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak on his ass and he was about to bite it till Captain Britain saved him. This was in a Quasar issue. There are more examples but I'm busy.

Plus he's powerless vs exotic energy : darkforce, anything outside the electromagnetic spectrum, and alien energies like the Cube that Dr. Spectrum uses.

Quasar also had no control over the energies of the cosmic rod energies used by annihilus... I guess being from the negative zone...

But are we making an argument that wonder womans attaks are magical in nature? I mean i know her physical powers are based upon magic but her attacks unless you include the lasso arent really magical... Are they? I mean shazams punchs arent magical.. The lightning sure...

And pure brick vs hia constructs quasar i dont see having too much of an issue... In a forum battle which goes off best showings...

But being contained by magic is totally different to not being able to efefct magical beings with his powers or them being able to destroy his constructs.

The axe, sword arrows and shield that wonder woman uses... Are they magical? I mean honestly i dont know if they hold anybspecial properties other than being durable?

Originally posted by khazra
But being contained by magic is totally different to not being able to efefct magical beings with his powers or them being able to destroy his constructs.

He CANNOT affect anything outside the electromagnetic spectrum. See my earlier scan in this thread. Half-life was beyond Quasar because her powers were based on the Weak Force. Since they fell outside the EM Spectrum, PIS had to be invoked and he used her boots to bind her hands.

She was shattering his constructs and there was nothing he could do about it. If he got within arms reach of her, she'd kill him instantly. Quantum aura or no.

The Bands are great for what they do : Total control over the EM Spectrum. But outside of that, they have serious issues.

Maybe quanchi has some sort of deadman's trigger implanted in his skull? Like if he considers even for a moment that WW might not be as weak, it'll wrack his body with pain, so he has to say what he does even with no backing?

Because he's literally resorting to "because I want it to" as the reasons for his arguments.


Originally posted by rotiart
The axe, sword arrows and shield that wonder woman uses... Are they magical? I mean honestly i dont know if they hold anybspecial properties other than being durable?

Yes, many Amazon weapons are 'godforged,' as she notes at one point, and can cut quite a bit better than normal.

That's the axe used to cut off Medusa's head and kill Ares.

So they are considered to be enchanted? I mean even hercules mace is adamantite... Which is a mystical metal but thats doesnt have magical properties...

Wolverines claws cut a bunch of stuff but tey arent magical...

I mean does the axe etc exhibit any special properyies..ither than durability... The fact that an axe... Cuts doesnt mean it is displaying any magical properties... when the person wielding it can lift 100 tons or more...

Like did it cut off that medusas head with any force being exerted by ww?

Most of her weapons are magical based. Plus, doesn't she have a new energy attack? Gail's run.

Originally posted by Q99
But, why?

Again, you just seem to not want it to be true. That's not much reason.

It seems perfectly in line with the kind of tactics Superman was showing in the fight. Because the art didn't show it or was it even implied. Do you feel his punch was shown as dramatically amped and that he isn't capable of this strength all out ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Because the art didn't show it or was it even implied. Do you feel his punch was shown as dramatically amped and that he isn't capable of this strength all out ?

The art most certainly showed he was close to the sun.

And the difference in amping isn't huge unless he spends more time than that or actively dips, he should only be incrementally stronger anyway.


Look, a bunch of people think you have no argument on WW related topics in general. Perhaps you should take that as a sign to re-think your positions?



They might be like Adamantite now that you mention it, especially the arrows. It's not really specifically outlined, but I've also seen stuff like random amazons who's spear heads are on fire with they stab people.

Though the axe's ability to break Ares's helmet makes me think it's something special, what with her keep using it as a weapon of choice against tough foes (Aside from Ares and Medusa, it was also a weapon of choice against Genocide and Rao).



Her sword and tiara do definitely have specific enchantments (cutting powers).



Yea, on her aegis bracers.

Originally posted by Q99
The art most certainly showed he was close to the sun.

And the difference in amping isn't huge unless he spends more time than that or actively dips, he should only be incrementally stronger anyway.


Look, a bunch of people think you have no argument on WW related topics in general. Perhaps you should take that as a sign to re-think your positions?



They might be like Adamantite now that you mention it, especially the arrows. It's not really specifically outlined, but I've also seen stuff like random amazons who's spear heads are on fire with they stab people.

Though the axe's ability to break Ares's helmet makes me think it's something special, what with her keep using it as a weapon of choice against tough foes (Aside from Ares and Medusa, it was also a weapon of choice against Genocide and Rao).



Her sword and tiara do definitely have specific enchantments (cutting powers).



Yea, on her aegis bracers. I don't feel he was portrayed as having an amp I mean it's not like he did anything to suggest he was amped. I mean he wrecked Ds's face with an amped punch whereas WW's face was fine compared to Ds's.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't feel he was portrayed as having an amp I mean it's not like he did anything to suggest he was amped. I mean he wrecked Ds's face with an amped punch whereas WW's face was fine compared to Ds's.


So, because you feel it. Nothing to really back it up, I note.


And she did have facial injuries. Of course, she's also really tough and he had more time to amp against DS.

Originally posted by Q99
So, because you feel it. Nothing to really back it up, I note.


And she did have facial injuries. Of course, she's also really tough and he had more time to amp against DS. It what I interpreted from the scene. You can't prove he was amped and that was the writer's intent. If you ca I will happily concede the point.


So you feel Superman was more amped against Ds than against WW ?

Looking at the scan you posted it is apparant that its because her powers specifically decay things on an atomic scale that shesbreaks his constructs, not the source.

"her atomic decay powers broke the bonds of my matter/energy construct"

I'd still like to see evidence that ben has broken his constructs? And that would still be a low showing for Quasar.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It what I interpreted from the scene. You can't prove he was amped and that was the writer's intent. If you ca I will happily concede the point.

But it's a standard facet of Superman's abilities. And you're choosing to ignore it... just, because.

Just like most of your arguments against WW. Just... because. Nothing to prove your points when you're the one trying to prove that it's an exception from the norm, it's not happening purely because you're asking us to take your word for it. The burden of proof's on you and you bring nothing.

Just, because.

Let's assume for a second that we're not going to bend the rules of evidence on your say-so, shall we? So no, he was amped, we aren't going to ignore that, and you don't get to play it off by asking just because.



Maybe? I don't remember the DS scene too well, honestly.

Originally posted by Q99
But it's a standard facet of Superman's abilities. And you're choosing to ignore it... just, because.

Just like most of your arguments against WW. Just... because. Nothing to prove your points when you're the one trying to prove that it's an exception from the norm, it's not happening purely because you're asking us to take your word for it. The burden of proof's on you and you bring nothing.

Just, because.

Let's assume for a second that we're not going to bend the rules of evidence on your say-so, shall we? So no, he was amped, we aren't going to ignore that, and you don't get to play it off by asking just because.



Maybe? I don't remember the DS scene too well, honestly. I don't see Superman's eyes changing, it mentioned in the comic, or anything he did to correlate to huge power spike.

The art clearly showed Superman was sun amped where it did no such thing against WW.

Originally posted by khazra
Looking at the scan you posted it is apparant that its because her powers specifically decay things on an atomic scale that shesbreaks his constructs, not the source.

"her atomic decay powers broke the bonds of my matter/energy construct"

Yes and read on, she uses the Weak Force, something beyond his limited power to affect. He has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, etc...control over energies not in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Darkstar's Darkforce powers have penetrated his Quantum constructs. Dr Spectrum has penetrated his Quantum constructs. They did so because he has no control over a) Darkforce or b) Whatever energy Dr. Spectrum uses. I can get you those issue numbers too.

I can post the issue of Thor where Quasar admits to being "useless vs magic" it's on panel and stated by the character himself.



I'll post the issue numbers when I get home. Both the one for Thing smashing his constructs and Quasar admitting to Cap that the Thing wasn't even "going all out".

Originally posted by zopzop
Yes and read on, she uses the Weak Force, something beyond his limited power to affect. He has ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, etc...control over energies not in the electromagnetic spectrum.
So he cant manipulate her energy, thats fair enough. What energy does wonderwoman have anyways?

But thats not why she was breaking his constructs as you claimed.

His constructs still work fine against those outside the EM spectrum, she just had a power which broke them down.

Edit> Magic weapons are the question here and quasars shield has taken a mjolnir throw without cracking.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't see Superman's eyes changing, it mentioned in the comic, or anything he did to correlate to huge power spike.


He has to amp pretty far for those to show up. He was still almost certaining gaining some boost, though.




Only Zeus's lightning from her bracers.

Originally posted by zopzop
During the Serpent Crown affair. Quasar was working for Project Pegasus. He was controlled by the Serpent Crown. He held thing up in Quantum cuffs. Thing smashed them.


Plus when Quasar was applying for Avengers membership after the Atlantis Attacks affair, he admitted to Captain America that "they (his constructs) were pretty sturdy, having take repeated blows from the Thing. But I doubt he was going all out."



not to nitpick, but both of those events you cited (serpent crown and atlantis attacks) were VERY early quasar. Atlantis Attacks was 1989- the same year Quasar got his own series. Serpent Crown was even earlier than THAT. It's pretty obvious that he has better control over his constructs by now. Should we start listing wonder woman's limitations from her first issues as evidence of what she can do?

The scan that's been repeatedly posted (with quasar holding off hulk, she hulk, thing, thor, hercules) specifically takes place AFTER infinity gauntlet. Infinity gauntlet was YEARS after both atlantis attacks and the serpent crown saga.

Later showings trump earlier ones, unless quasar was specifically powered down. this hasn't happened.



really? because I have a pretty fun scan of Quasar draining "a star's worth" of power cosmic energy from the silver surfer during combat, and I'm 100% positive "power cosmic" doesn't fall along the EM spectrum.

This reply was a little late to edit my last post, so it's just a followup. Expanding on Quasar's ability to drain and manipulate power cosmic,

Here is a scan where he powerdrains his team members to forge a construct.

Those team members? Beta Ray Bill, Silver Surfer, Ronan the Accuser, Major Victory, Gladiator, Nova, and Namorita, and does so without their permission or knowledge. Nearly all of these are fueled by energy not within the EM spectrum, and one (beta ray) is explicitly fueled by a magical power source (Stormbreaker). Assuming this scan isn't bizarrely out of character, this is pretty definitive proof Quasar can drain non-EM energy, and a strong argument he should be able to drain wonder woman specifically.

Originally posted by khazra
So he cant manipulate her energy, thats fair enough. What energy does wonderwoman have anyways?

But thats not why she was breaking his constructs as you claimed.

What did I claim about Half Life breaking Quasar's energy constructs?



When? I gave you two examples of them being broken/penetrated by people wielding exotic energy powers : Darkstar and Dr. Spectrum.



When?

Originally posted by Space M ummy


I'll have to look into it but I had the whole Quasar series. These weren't the only times his energy constucts have been taken down by physical force.





Actually I'm pretty sure it is. It's been repeated countless times by Quasar himself, he has ZERO control over energy not in the electromagnetic spectrum. See my Half Life /Quasar scan.

Has Quasar ever manipulated magic?

Originally posted by zopzop
I'll have to look into it but I had the whole Quasar series. These weren't the only times his energy constucts have been taken down by physical force.

no one said his energy constructs haven't been taken down by physical force. It's pretty easy to come up with scans where LANTERN constructs have been taken out by sufficient physical force. What I'm pointing out is that quasar's control over his constructs improved over time.

You cited two examples of quasar having problems with the Thing VERY early in his career (BEFORE his series, as I pointed out) and I pointed out that a scan of quasar holding off far, far more physical damage than thing is capable of came long AFTER that scan. There's a lot more evidence of vaughn improving in his powers- it used to take him years to traverse the solar system before he mastered Q-zone jumping. It's common sense man.




since you insisted:

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h127/Manmademan/Quasar5038mh0.jpg

that's clearly quasar draining Power cosmic, and explicitly using it as a power source. and that's the SECOND time I've posted a scan of him doing it. Unless you want to argue that Power cosmic is somehow EM energy (and good luck there) your argument is void. PC is the very definition of "Exotic energy".

Originally posted by Space M ummy
no one said his energy constructs haven't been taken down by physical force. It's pretty easy to come up with scans where LANTERN constructs have been taken out by sufficient physical force. What I'm pointing out is that quasar's control over his constructs improved over time.

You cited two examples of quasar having problems with the Thing VERY early in his career (BEFORE his series, as I pointed out) and I pointed out that a scan of quasar holding off far, far more physical damage than thing is capable of came long AFTER that scan. There's a lot more evidence of vaughn improving in his powers- it used to take him years to traverse the solar system before he mastered Q-zone jumping. It's common sense man.

Fine. I haven't read much of Quasar since his series ended.






Wrong. Then why has he REPEATEDLY mentioned that his bands have no control over energy outside the EM spectrum (confirmed by Maelstrom when he had them too)? Darkstar has penetrated his constructs, he even said he made his shield as "dense as he could and they still got through", Dr. Spectrum has done it. Half Life using the Weak Force has done it. He said himself that he has no control over these energies because they fall outside the EM spectrum. Thus we can safely conclude that the power cosmic falls within the EM spectrum or else Quasar couldn't drain it.

EDIT :

Here's the Quasar/Darkstar fight that took place AFTER the Surfer/Quasar fight :

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/3898/quasar6018.th.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

He has NO control over it.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Has Quasar ever manipulated magic?

Never. He was almost crushed to death by the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak until Captain Britain saved his ass though.

Originally posted by zopzop
Fine. I haven't read much of Quasar since his series ended.


Wrong. Then why has he REPEATEDLY mentioned that his bands have no control over energy outside the EM spectrum (confirmed by Maelstrom when he had them too)? Darkstar has penetrated his constructs, he even said he made his shield as "dense as he could and they still got through", Dr. Spectrum has done it. Half Life using the Weak Force has done it. He said himself that he has no control over these energies because they fall outside the EM spectrum. Thus we can safely conclude that the power cosmic falls within the EM spectrum or else Quasar couldn't drain it.

The EM spectrum is already clearly defined. there's no "power cosmic" anywhere on it. Sorry, chief. when the PC is used from everything from merging living things with surfer's board to traveling through time, the argument that it's EM energy is pretty much null and void.

We also know the quantum bands can protect against psychic attacks. Is psionic energy on the EM spectrum too?

Obviously not. PC and Psi energy are fictional, with fictional properties not found on the EM spectrum. The only thing the events with Darkstar and Dr. Spectrum prove is that Vaughn's abilities either does not apply to them specifically, OR his control over his abilities was inferior to their control over their powers.

edit: Here's quasar absorbing energy from the god damn phoenix and using it on modred the mystic. note that his quantum bands work just fine at restraining modred before the effort of holding off phoenix weakens them.

quasar vs modred and phoenix

Originally posted by Space M ummy
The EM spectrum is already clearly defined. there's no "power cosmic" anywhere on it. Sorry, chief. when the PC is used from everything from merging living things with surfer's board to traveling through time, the argument that it's EM energy is pretty much null and void.

We also know the quantum bands can protect against psychic attacks. Is psionic energy on the EM spectrum too?

Obviously not. PC and Psi energy are fictional, with fictional properties not found on the EM spectrum. The only thing the events with Darkstar and Dr. Spectrum prove is that Vaughn's abilities either does not apply to them specifically, OR his control over his abilities was inferior to their control over their powers.

Wrong. I can post scans all day showing Quasar say he has no control of energy outside the EM spectrum. I assumed this was common knowledge and I can't even believe it's up to debate.

PS when was it shown he has any sort of defense vs psionics?