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Karati = fail.

KK has better skills (arguably the best out of the "standard" range of characters), but I can't see him winning a conventional fight against Achilles -- the latter just is too strong/durable, and his Grace is a match for KK's superior skill/combat finesse, or at the very least can mitigate them long enough to land a solid blow.

If rating pure combat skill, the KK would take the solid majority.

In a general fight, however, Achilles should take the solid...

Val.

Originally posted by tideoftime
KK has better skills (arguably the best out of the "standard" range of characters), but I can't see him winning a conventional fight against Achilles -- the latter just is too strong/durable, and his Grace is a match for KK's superior skill/combat finesse, or at the very least can mitigate them long enough to land a solid blow.

If rating pure combat skill, the KK would take the solid majority.

In a general fight, however, Achilles should take the solid... very well put

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Val.

How?

Not being confrontational, but I'm really at a loss as to how Val would get any non-circumstantial wins (again, in the broader range of combat --- there's no question that KK has better martial skills than practically anyone); Achilles can dodge/evade multiple machinegun fire with ease, and even the focused attacks of superfast/skilled opponents (like Wonder Woman, who had to resort to sweeping attacks and using her flight to really lay on him, and even then it was later revealed that he was "conflicted", and has the "Glads" weakness of not being as strong/fast when "conflicted about his purpose".

Again, if you could at least describe *how* Val could get wins (let alone a majority), I'd be more than happy to see where you're coming from.


Collosus BigC: Thank you.

Originally posted by tideoftime How? Not being confrontational, but I'm really at a loss as to how Val would get any non-circumstantial wins (again, in the broader range of combat --- there's no question that KK has better martial skills than practically anyone); Achilles can dodge/evade multiple machinegun fire with ease, and even the focused attacks of superfast/skilled opponents (like Wonder Woman, who had to resort to sweeping attacks and using her flight to really lay on him, and even then it was later revealed that he was "conflicted", and has the "Glads" weakness of not being as strong/fast when "conflicted about his purpose". Again, if you could at least describe *how* Val could get wins (let alone a majority), I'd be more than happy to see where you're coming from. Collosus BigC: Thank you.

first which val is this? currently there is no val in legion. they are searching for him. anyway pc val has faced tougher opponents in superboy and monel. invulnerability doesnt mean anything since he can find any weak point. also his master white crane taught val how to take on meta humans so achilles isnt anything new. val is much more skilled and fast to boot.

zero hour val would do the same. 3boot val would lose.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
anyway pc val has faced tougher opponents

Need not read any further.

Cap has faced Hulk..it doesn't mean he can beat Omega Red.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
first which val is this? currently there is no val in legion. they are searching for him. anyway pc val has faced tougher opponents in superboy and monel. invulnerability doesnt mean anything since he can find any weak point. also his master white crane taught val how to take on meta humans so achilles isnt anything new. val is much more skilled and fast to boot.

zero hour val would do the same. 3boot val would lose. Who said this was pc ? Why would you assume pc anything if pc isn't stated.

Originally posted by Juk3n Need not read any further. Cap has faced Hulk..it doesn't mean he can beat Omega Red.

what does that have to do with this fight?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
what does that have to do with this fight? Facing tougher opponents means absolutely nothing. It's like me saying I can beat you in basketball because I faced michael jordan and charles barkley. It's just horrible logic.

I asked Juk3n.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Facing tougher opponents means absolutely nothing. It's like me saying I can beat you in basketball because I faced michael jordan and charles barkley. It's just horrible logic. the funny part about it is that you merley "faced" that person you may of got curbstomped or one shotted by him yet people use this abc logic

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
the funny part about it is that you merley "faced" that person you may of got curbstomped or one shotted by him yet people use this abc logic I know I cringe when I see people makes these mistakes. It's such bad debating.

Can't wait to tell someone I will beat you at bball because I faced m. jordan.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I asked Juk3n. It's obvious that he had a problem with your logic which makes no sense to anyone.

So. how does Achilles win? Anyone.

I'm going with tideoftime's reasoning here.


Achilles fights until he gets lucky and lands a hit (which between being pretty skilled and having much higher stats, he eventually will), then things go down hill for Karate Kid. War Killer'll outlast him, basically (higher toughness, regen, Grace that makes him very hard to hit).

Originally posted by Prep-Man
So. how does Achilles win? Anyone.

Guess I'll just go ahead and reprint my original further up post... as it already explained how Achilles' would do that...

>KK has better skills (arguably the best out of the "standard" range of characters), but I can't see him winning a conventional fight against Achilles -- the latter just is too strong/durable, and his Grace is a match for KK's superior skill/combat finesse, or at the very least can mitigate them long enough to land a solid blow.

If rating pure combat skill, the KK would take the solid majority.

In a general fight, however, Achilles should take the solid...<

All Achilles has to do is land just one or two solid hits, and KK will be stunned (and, arguably, that's being generous in KK's favor, in terms of durability) -- he then moves in for the submission. KK's superior/paranormal-level MA ability to discern weak-points won't be as effective against Achilles as many others because he (KK) will have a difficult time getting his hands on A; even with a Legion flight ring, he still won't have the speed/aerial maneuvers to peg-down A, like WW or similar did/would.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Guess I'll just go ahead and reprint my original further up post... as it already explained how Achilles' would do that...

>KK has better skills (arguably the best out of the "standard" range of characters), but I can't see him winning a conventional fight against Achilles -- the latter just is too strong/durable, and his Grace is a match for KK's superior skill/combat finesse, or at the very least can mitigate them long enough to land a solid blow.

If rating pure combat skill, the KK would take the solid majority.

In a general fight, however, Achilles should take the solid...<

All Achilles has to do is land just one or two solid hits, and KK will be stunned (and, arguably, that's being generous in KK's favor, in terms of durability) -- he then moves in for the submission. KK's superior/paranormal-level MA ability to discern weak-points won't be as effective against Achilles as many others because he (KK) will have a difficult time getting his hands on A; even with a Legion flight ring, he still won't have the speed/aerial maneuvers to peg-down A, like WW or similar did/would.

Val has taken blows from top tiers and still managed to continue the fight.

Durability? Val has broken the toughest metals in the universe and shattered the Emerald Eye of Ekron. He'd shatter any weapon Achilles brings.

You act like Val is a normal fighter with normal human stats. Wrong on all accounts. He can amp up his stats and has managed to dodge things like lightning, speedsters, and sparred with Ultra Boy. Not to mention owned Timber Wolf with ease.

Achilles brings nothing new to the table.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Val has taken blows from top tiers and still managed to continue the fight.

Durability? Val has broken the toughest metals in the universe and shattered the Emerald Eye of Ekron. He'd shatter any weapon Achilles brings.

You act like Val is a normal fighter with normal human stats. Wrong on all accounts. He can amp up his stats and has managed to dodge things like lightning, speedsters, and sparred with Ultra Boy. Not to mention owned Timber Wolf with ease.

Achilles brings nothing new to the table.

*No*

I am *not* treating him as a mere highly skilled human -- his martial skills are positively supernatural/a power, in and of themselves.

And I am fully aware of his range of feats (though the greater number of them that really go uber are Pre-C).

However, as a general median, the *specific* powerset that Achilles possesses works quite well against KK's abilities: it isn't simply that A is superstrong, durable, and comparatively fast -- his Grace allows him to avoid been hit/touched by even superfast attacks, via a combination of speed and prescience. KK's martial insight would likely tell him as he fought Achilles that while he (KK) can discern degrees of weakness/best points to attack, his ability to *connect* is going to be impaired, significantly. Val has good showings, for sure, but his median range doesn't include *truly* superhuman durability, but uber-finessed skill. KK is no slouch, by any means, but don't *you* paint him up merely by his best feats. Skill-wise, KK wins. Overall, he'll lose a solid 7-8/10. That still leaves wins in there for him, but I personally wouldn't put money on it (and I *like* most of the Legion characters, including Val, despite their Silver Age hokey origins).

Originally posted by tideoftime *No* I am *not* treating him as a mere highly skilled human -- his martial skills are positively supernatural/a power, in and of themselves. And I am fully aware of his range of feats (though the greater number of them that really go uber are Pre-C). However, as a general median, the *specific* powerset that Achilles possesses works quite well against KK's abilities: it isn't simply that A is superstrong, durable, and comparatively fast -- his Grace allows him to avoid been hit/touched by even superfast attacks, via a combination of speed and prescience. KK's martial insight would likely tell him as he fought Achilles that while he (KK) can discern degrees of weakness/best points to attack, his ability to *connect* is going to be impaired, significantly. Val has good showings, for sure, but his median range doesn't include *truly* superhuman durability, but uber-finessed skill. KK is no slouch, by any means, but don't *you* paint him up m


he didnt avoid geo force attacks or dianas. val is much more skilled than either of the 2.

plus val has a similar skill. he can read movements to avoid fighterws like achilles.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Originally posted by tideoftime *No* I am *not* treating him as a mere highly skilled human -- his martial skills are positively supernatural/a power, in and of themselves. And I am fully aware of his range of feats (though the greater number of them that really go uber are Pre-C). However, as a general median, the *specific* powerset that Achilles possesses works quite well against KK's abilities: it isn't simply that A is superstrong, durable, and comparatively fast -- his Grace allows him to avoid been hit/touched by even superfast attacks, via a combination of speed and prescience. KK's martial insight would likely tell him as he fought Achilles that while he (KK) can discern degrees of weakness/best points to attack, his ability to *connect* is going to be impaired, significantly. Val has good showings, for sure, but his median range doesn't include *truly* superhuman durability, but uber-finessed skill. KK is no slouch, by any means, but don't *you* paint him up m


he didnt avoid geo force attacks or dianas. val is much more skilled than either of the 2.

plus val has a similar skill. he can read movements to avoid fighterws like achilles.

(I can't find a Picard Facepalm big enough to place here... much to my frustration...)

You didn't read any of my posts so far in this thread, did you? Diana was able to successfully take down Achilles on three separate occasions due to 2 primary points: 1) she can fly... *fast*... and realized that even with her superspeed, she'd have to use broad grappling attacks to take him... which she did -- something that contextually, even with a flight ring, KK is *not* going to be able to duplicate; and 2) Achilles has a Gladiator-esque "weakness" -- when he is conflicted about his purpose/the validity of his cause, his abilities are dampened (as indicated in later issues of WW), and likewise indicated as part of why Diana was able to beat him as relatively easily as she did. That isn't going to be a concern/issue in a Forum battle. Broad, or sweeping attacks are useful against him, though he easily can avoid multiple machine gun fire while continueing his own attacks... too bad KK doesn't have that as part of his powerset, as such (rapid strikes/blows? Yes. Fast reflexes? Of course. But he can't duplicate the movement of WW, or similar persons, and he doesn't have any proper ranged abilities).

And, by the by, Achilles Grace is a divine ability -- it is quite different in function than Val's abilities. Comparing him to Spiderman w/SS is a more accurate comparison, in that Achilles often avoids attacks he isn't even immediately aware of. It's not the same as Val's ability.

Final point: while KK is most certainly the best MA in DC (barring uber-god manipulations/power), it's misleading and feeding into many fanbois misperceptions concerning WW to place her much below him: Diana is one of the *best* H2H fighters in DC. KK is better, certainly, but that is part of his paranormal ability/"schtick", similar contextually to, say, Iron Fist's abilities (though obviously narratively different).

*****

I have to say, Prep, that I am rather surprised at your stubborness on this issue -- you are normally more reasonable in your balance of feats vs. median performance, when it comes to most of the threads I've seen you post in /create. Is KK a favorite of yours? If so, I was unaware of that. In anycase, I am going to walk away from this conversation, because the level of (perceived on my part, in terms of you, though I mean no offense) intellectual dishonesty is starting to get a little thick. While I just ignore it with Quan on certain issues (Thanos, Thor, WW, and SM), I don't consider you to be like that, so I'm going to just agree to disagree on this thread, smile, shake hands, and go on my way...

Originally posted by tideoftime
(I can't find a Picard Facepalm big enough to place here... much to my frustration...)

You didn't read any of my posts so far in this thread, did you? Diana was able to successfully take down Achilles on three separate occasions due to 2 primary points: 1) she can fly... *fast*... and realized that even with her superspeed, she'd have to use broad grappling attacks to take him... which she did -- something that contextually, even with a flight ring, KK is *not* going to be able to duplicate; and 2) Achilles has a Gladiator-esque "weakness" -- when he is conflicted about his purpose/the validity of his cause, his abilities are dampened (as indicated in later issues of WW), and likewise indicated as part of why Diana was able to beat him as relatively easily as she did. That isn't going to be a concern/issue in a Forum battle. Broad, or sweeping attacks are useful against him, though he easily can avoid multiple machine gun fire while continueing his own attacks... too bad KK doesn't have that as part of his powerset, as such (rapid strikes/blows? Yes. Fast reflexes? Of course. But he can't duplicate the movement of WW, or similar persons, and he doesn't have any proper ranged abilities).

And, by the by, Achilles Grace is a divine ability -- it is quite different in function than Val's abilities. Comparing him to Spiderman w/SS is a more accurate comparison, in that Achilles often avoids attacks he isn't even immediately aware of. It's not the same as Val's ability.

Final point: while KK is most certainly the best MA in DC (barring uber-god manipulations/power), it's misleading and feeding into many fanbois misperceptions concerning WW to place her much below him: Diana is one of the *best* H2H fighters in DC. KK is better, certainly, but that is part of his paranormal ability/"schtick", similar contextually to, say, Iron Fist's abilities (though obviously narratively different).

*****

I have to say, Prep, that I am rather surprised at your stubborness on this issue -- you are normally more reasonable in your balance of feats vs. median performance, when it comes to most of the threads I've seen you post in /create. Is KK a favorite of yours? If so, I was unaware of that. In anycase, I am going to walk away from this conversation, because the level of (perceived on my part, in terms of you, though I mean no offense) intellectual dishonesty is starting to get a little thick. While I just ignore it with Quan on certain issues (Thanos, Thor, WW, and SM), I don't consider you to be like that, so I'm going to just agree to disagree on this thread, smile, shake hands, and go on my way...

Not really a favorite, no. Just the things he'd done has amazed me, though.

BTW, nobody stated which KK this is.

And I'd say Val is a bit above Diana. He's mastered every known MA leading up to the 31st Century. That's quite a bit of MA isn't it?

didnt KK get beat up by powergirl?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
didnt KK get beat up by powergirl?

That was PC Val and he was affected by a virus. BTW, it was Supergirl.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
That was PC Val and he was affected by a virus. BTW, it was Supergirl. Pc Kk isn't in this thread anyways.

That's Post crisis, with Pre-crisis design. that was the last KK.