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I've been following X-Men, and it seems now that Cyclops has taken over, his plans for a victory always seem to get him the win. So far he's outsmarted Dracula and his son and not to long ago he out did a power house of a team in Norman Osborn's Dark Avengers. I usually only see this level of strategy from the likes of Black Panther, Batman, Dr. Doom, and once even Wolverine as leader of X-Force. I'm not asking for intelligence, but more of those people who can pull a win when all odds are against them.

Originally posted by EvilTyrant
I've been following X-Men, and it seems now that Cyclops has taken over, his plans for a victory always seem to get him the win. So far he's outsmarted Dracula and his son and not to long ago he out did a power house of a team in Norman Osborn's Dark Avengers. I usually only see this level of strategy from the likes of Black Panther, Batman, Dr. Doom, and once even Wolverine as leader of X-Force. I'm not asking for intelligence, but more of those people who can pull a win when all odds are against them. He didn't outsmart Dracula but he's up there.

But in terms of strategy:
Dr. Doom
Pete Wisdom
T'Challa
Dracula
Cyclops

That's just in my opinion, very few characters actually have to wage warsso it's hard to say how others compare.

Originally posted by Trackz
He didn't outsmart Dracula but he's up there.

But in terms of strategy:
Dr. Doom
Pete Wisdom
T'Challa
Dracula
Cyclops

That's just in my opinion, very few characters actually have to wage warsso it's hard to say how others compare.
You don't think he outsmarted Dracula? Dracula was ready to wage war but Cyclops had him second guessing his next move.

Over at DC, you've got Adam Strange and Vril Dox/'Brainiac 2' up there.

If you're talking overcoming the odds then John Constantine is probably among the best in either company.

Drax the destroyer (last incarnation)
Thanos
Steve Rodgers
Nova Prime
Frank Castle
Tao
Kang
Starlord

Thanos and well...... just Thanos.

Frank castle and cyclops are completely different, it's debatable who's better, Frank always devises great plans in order to slay his opponents but in my opinion overcoming overwhelming odds and leading a nation is much greater.

Originally posted by EvilTyrant
I've been following X-Men, and it seems now that Cyclops has taken over, his plans for a victory always seem to get him the win. So far he's outsmarted Dracula and his son and not to long ago he out did a power house of a team in Norman Osborn's Dark Avengers. I usually only see this level of strategy from the likes of Black Panther, Batman, Dr. Doom, and once even Wolverine as leader of X-Force. I'm not asking for intelligence, but more of those people who can pull a win when all odds are against them.

Are you talking about strategy or tactics? I ask because some of the suggestions I've been reading are, IMO, more tacticians than strategist.

Strategy refers to a plan of action designed to achieve a particular goal. In military usage strategy is distinct from tactics, which are concerned with the conduct of an engagement, while strategy is concerned with how different engagements are linked. How a battle is fought is a matter of tactics: the terms and conditions that it is fought on and whether it should be fought at all is a matter of strategy.

Most of the time in comics, villains are better strategist and the hero is a better tactician in the one battle that actually matters. There are some heroes that defy that mold such as:


Scott Summers is a strategist. Once was the case that Xavier was the strategist and Scott was the ultimate tactician in the X-men but things have changed. (think current Mutant Nation Leader).

Tony Starks is a strategist (think during Civil War/Illuminati/SHIELD)

Bruce Wayne is a strategist (Always. He's the Goddamn Batman)


Then you have your tacticians, which can be both hero or villian. People like:

Nightwing who is, IMO, the ultimate tactician. He's probably DC earths greatest leader, but he makes for a better battle to battle leader than overall picture leader.

Dr. Doom is a self serving opportunist and is remarkable for being both a great strategist but an even better tactician.


As far as the stated question, I have to give the nod to Batman. He has contingency plans for every single hero he's encountered, has War Game scenarios for every single variable that may happen in Gotham, and deals with his main mission - ridding crime in Gotham - even while handicapping himself by not killing or using guns.

But due to the fact that the hero never truly achieves their goals, something which is inherent in their design, I'd have to say Tony Stark and Scott are right there with Batman (who has, of yet, not made Gotham crime free). Tony won the Civil War and Scott is doing what both Xavier and Magneto couldn't.

^ I'd say Nightwing is second fiddle to Deathstroke in terms of tactics.

I'll say professor X and Cyclops are near the top in marvel.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
^ I'd say Nightwing is second fiddle to Deathstroke in terms of tactics.

I'd challenge that in terms of personal vs team based tactics. Nightwing is a force multiplier. He gets better when he directs others in a team based setting. Deathstroke is more of a personal tactician, doing everything solo. I think they both excel in different scenarios.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
I'd challenge that in terms of personal vs team based tactics. Nightwing is a force multiplier. He gets better when he directs others in a team based setting. Deathstroke is more of a personal tactician, doing everything solo. I think they both excel in different scenarios.

Yes, excellent point. Nightwing connects with his teammates and thus can coax more out of them than a purely analytical type and add that to his plans. Batman has admitted as much.

---

Another quite high up DC tactician is Wonder Woman, which gets overlooked. She on-the-fly dismantled the JLA without prep, and has shown very rapid adjustment of tactics to difficult situations, like when she fought the Citizenry (who's soldiers used GL-derived personal shields and blasters).

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, excellent point. Nightwing connects with his teammates and thus can coax more out of them than a purely analytical type and add that to his plans. Batman has admitted as much.

---

Another quite high up DC tactician is Wonder Woman, which gets overlooked. She on-the-fly dismantled the JLA without prep, and has shown very rapid adjustment of tactics to difficult situations, like when she fought the Citizenry (who's soldiers used GL-derived personal shields and blasters). Like Blair Wind said, there's a difference between strategist and tactician, at least ho we're defining them here.

Originally posted by Trackz
Like Blair Wind said, there's a difference between strategist and tactician, at least ho we're defining them here.

Quite true.



I'll again mention Vril Dox- latest REBELS series, he started out with his enemy army pulled out from under him and used against him against a foe that had conquered galaxies, and what former friends he did have hesitant to help him if at all. And, eventually, his own son, who's smarter than him (12th degree vs 10th) joined the opposition to boot.

The problem is most of these people aren't leading conquesting armies.

Highfather from New Gen is up there
Darkseid
Reed Richards
Dr. Doom
Skrull Queen from Secret invasion.
Nick Fury.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
If you're talking overcoming the odds then John Constantine is probably among the best in either company.

This.

Cyclops was always that good. It's not exatcly a new thing that he's outsmarting people like Osborn...

In Marvel i'd have him on the same level as most, including Cap...

And he's both a strategist and a tactician, etc.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
If you're talking overcoming the odds then John Constantine is probably among the best in either company.

He's pretty much the king of planning and strategy.

I mean, in Ennis' run alone he takes on two near Lucifer/Michael level beings, (FotF and Gabriel) and comes out on top...

Originally posted by -Pr-
Cyclops was always that good. It's not exatcly a new thing that he's outsmarting people like Osborn...

In Marvel i'd have him on the same level as most, including Cap...

And he's both a strategist and a tactician, etc.
True, I always thought he was up there with the best in these areas, i'm glad that Marvel is showing his ability more now. I like this version of Cyclops. I guess that merge with Apocalypse was for the better.

I find it strange no one is mentioning Pete Wisdom, if you've checked out vampire state his plan for taking out Dracula resulted in about one casualty I think, and that was a full scale war on Britain as compared to the invasion Cyclops had to deal with.

what about Cho?

Originally posted by EvilTyrant
True, I always thought he was up there with the best in these areas, i'm glad that Marvel is showing his ability more now. I like this version of Cyclops. I guess that merge with Apocalypse was for the better.

I hate this version of Cyclops. They could have made him a brilliant tactician and leader without totally raping his character.

Vandal Savage!

Originally posted by The Pict
I hate this version of Cyclops. They could have made him a brilliant tactician and leader without totally raping his character.

blame fraction and yost.

Originally posted by -Pr-
blame fraction and yost.

I do, mate, no worries there.

I blame Fraction more. In X-Force they needed someone to authorise the team. Only Cyclops had the authority to do so in X-Men. Only choice Yost had there.
Would be better if the entire series didn't exist, though I do love Wolverine and X-23.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Vandal Savage!

lmao

Vandal Savage: Luther please come and die at my secret death castle.

Luther: No?

Vandal Savage: ... damn it.

Originally posted by The Pict
I do, mate, no worries there.

I blame Fraction more. In X-Force they needed someone to authorise the team. Only Cyclops had the authority to do so in X-Men. Only choice Yost had there.
Would be better if the entire series didn't exist, though I do love Wolverine and X-23.

oh, its definitely more fraction's fault. him and land make uncanny unreadable for me most of the time.

You're just upset that they actually gave Cyclops some character and he is no longer the blank slate personality void anyone can project their own personality onto.

Originally posted by -Pr-
oh, its definitely more fraction's fault. him and land make uncanny unreadable for me most of the time.

I don't mind Land's art too much, except that all the female characters look pretty much the same.

What bothers me is how Cyclops is seen as the Mutant leader now, cool getting his props. Plans the whole Utopia thing.

But then throws his friends blindly against Bastion in an attempt to get Hope to Utopia. Nightcrawler and the rest of the X-Men didn't know about Bastion and the Nimrods because Cyclops kept the whole X-Force thing secret. WTF?! How is Cyclops still in charge?

Hopefully we'll see a change with the whole Heroic Age thing.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
lmao

Vandal Savage: Luther please come and die at my secret death castle.

Luther: No?

Vandal Savage: ... damn it.
this is classic gold.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
what about Cho?

Tao and John Lynch- These two played the ultimate game of chess during the Wildstorm era.

Adam Warlock- Lead and organized the heroes to save the universe during the infinity saga. Got into Thanos's head, which goes without saying is damn hard to do. His actions over the years have lead to the universe being saved on multiple occasions.

Nova Prime- Organized and lead the United Front in the single greatest war in Marvel history. Was able to hold off the Annihilation wave despite the wave having overwhelmingly superior numbers as well as aide from Thanos. Ultimately provided the means to vanquish Ultron during Annihilation: Conquest. Founded and lead the "Cosmic Annihilators" in a raid of Mar-Vell's base of operations and ultimately helped end the war with the cancer-verse. Proven battlefield tactician that always seemed to pull a win out of nowhere.


Kang- Conquered multiple realities and timelines. Gave the Guardians of the Galaxy the means to defeat Magus.


Thanos of Titan. Does he really need an explanation?

I think Richard Rider is an awesome leader, but the others are more brilliant strategists directly, he just knows how to organize and use the right people.

He used Star-Lord a lot for strategy during the Annihilation Wave, for example.

Which reminds me: Star-Lord.

TAO and Bendix are two of the best, definitely.

Batman, Nightwing, Darkseid, Vandal Savage, Martian Manhunter, and Vril Dox for the DCU. Strangely, Sinestro is probably the single most SUCCESSFUL villain in either universe, but I digress.

Red Skull, Cyclops, Dr. Doom, Norman Osborne, Tony Stark...

Probably a lot more for Marvel, though I specifically left off Captain America (who I see as a stronger tactician than strategist) and Reed Richards (who is an innovator but not so focused on strategy).

Originally posted by Q99
Over at DC, you've got Adam Strange and Vril Dox/'Brainiac 2' up there.

Adam Strange is a tactician. He's not plannign out long term strategies, he's figuring stuff out on the fly, working with what he has and using it for the win. That's what Hal Jordan does to.

The best delineation I've ever seen is the Orion/Lightray relationship -- Orion will figure out how to win any 1v1 battle using what he's got in the area. Lightray is looking at the war, and plans and waits and uses indirect techniques to win the day.

Or Athena/Ares over at Marvel.

Originally posted by Q99
I think Richard Rider is an awesome leader, but the others are more brilliant strategists directly, he just knows how to organize and use the right people.

He used Star-Lord a lot for strategy during the Annihilation Wave, for example.

Which reminds me: Star-Lord. I'm not sure I follow. A key part of strategy is formulating a plan and using the right people for the right job. I never said he was the best, but I'd put his record up against anyone else in comics in terms of battlefield tactics and strategy either with prep or on the fly. Anyone want to see me about it, make the thread and lets go.

Originally posted by dmills
I'm not sure I follow. A key part of strategy is formulating a plan and using the right people for the right job. I never said he was the best, but I'd put his record up against anyone else in comics in terms of battlefield tactics and strategy either with prep or on the fly. Anyone want to see me about it, make the thread and lets go.


Listening to a great strategist is smart, but on it's own it doesn't make one a high-level strategist. Rider doesn't think up most of the strategies his army used, he was the leader, not the strategist.

By himself he's a good tactician but I don't really think of him as a strategist much.

Originally posted by Q99
Listening to a great strategist is smart, but on it's own it doesn't make one a high-level strategist. Rider doesn't think up most of the strategies his army used, he was the leader, not the strategist.

By himself he's a good tactician but I don't really think of him as a strategist much. So in essense your saying that he was a token general. We'll examine this further when I finish eating. Ttyl.

Originally posted by dmills

glad someone agrees. to me he like designed to be on this list.