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Theoretically, I believe that technology is nothing more than metaphysical technology which enables humans to utilize energy in order to utilize energy...even 'mystical blasts' consist of some sort of energy. Can someone like....define magic for me?

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Can someone like....define magic for me?
No. ahuh

Lol. Anyone else care to try? If not then....lol when I call myself concept writing a character, I'll keep in mind that magic doesn't exist and his powers will be a plot device lol

Could you explain what "fictionally exists" means? Do you mean in Marvel or DC comics?

If so then magic certainly exists as a distinct force in DC separate from other forms of power. A recent retcon puts the Sorcerer's World as the source of all DC magic, including 5D powers.

As for a definition that's murkier. Maybe Books of Magic explained it. I haven't actually read BoM though. *shrug*

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Can someone like....define magic for me?
Threesome with 2 hot chicks.

Originally posted by SamZED
Threesome with 2 hot chicks.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Theoretically, I believe that technology is nothing more than metaphysical technology which enables humans to utilize energy in order to utilize energy...even 'mystical blasts' consist of some sort of energy. Can someone like....define magic for me? How about: magic is the deployment of supernatural forces. Able to circumvent laws of physics, these forces originate in realms inhabited by, or giving rise to, the likes of ghosts, vampires, demons, gods, etc.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Could you explain what "fictionally exists" means? Do you mean in Marvel or DC comics?

If so then magic certainly exists as a distinct force in DC separate from other forms of power. A recent retcon puts the Sorcerer's World as the source of all DC magic, including 5D powers.

As for a definition that's murkier. Maybe Books of Magic explained it. I haven't actually read BoM though. *shrug*

Eh, the original books of magic mini didn't explain much, it more Constantine, Stranger etc showing Tim the effects of choosing to become a magician...

Although, it seemed to be set in Vertigo-verse more than standard DC continuity.

Originally posted by Mindship
How about: magic is the deployment of supernatural forces. Able to circumvent laws of physics, these forces originate in realms inhabited by, or giving rise to, the likes of ghosts, vampires, demons, gods, etc.


hmmmmmm


If I was in the mood, I spend the rest of the night arguing that terms like "supernatural" and "circumvent laws of physics" are semnatically meaningless ... but I can't be bothered.


Hows it going matey ???

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
If I was in the mood, I spend the rest of the night arguing that terms like "supernatural" and "circumvent laws of physics" are semnatically meaningless ... but I can't be bothered.

Hows it going matey ???



I was going to stop with 'deployment of supernatural forces'. But then I figured, I better give some idea of what I mean by supernatural, or someone's gonna bust my chops about it.

Getting ready to celebrate. A healthy and happy one to ya.

It depends on who's writing really. I think Reed Richards described magic as energy that hasn't been defined yet.

I think the main way to define that something is magic is to make it look really flamboyant.

Magic: A creation of Walt disney

Magic has always been just a way to describe science we don't understand.

I like the premise of this thread, its similar to how Mr Terrific described his reasoning to why he's atheist in spite of having met The Spectre and Ragman. Its all just energy we don't really understand enough to properly label or describe. That doesn't make it magic or supernatural.

My fault. I said 'metaphysical technology' because....I feel like magic is a form of technology. It might not be like...hands on tech, but it's tech nonetheless.

I feel like the definition of magic is not credible enough for it to be able to hurt certain chars in fiction. I am almost ready to say that anything magical is equal to bull****ical. Like....Surfer 'synthesized' the Odin force which is 'magical'. Magic can achieve a wide range of effects, but how?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Could you explain what "fictionally exists" means? Do you mean in Marvel or DC comics?

If so then magic certainly exists as a distinct force in DC separate from other forms of power. A recent retcon puts the Sorcerer's World as the source of all DC magic, including 5D powers.

As for a definition that's murkier. Maybe Books of Magic explained it. I haven't actually read BoM though. *shrug*

For the purpose of this thread, I guess I mean comics only...but I think my theory might apply across any work of fiction.

Originally posted by Jynocidus
Can someone like....define magic for me? Vision: "What we call magic, but what we really know to be the psionic manipulation of probability." - talking in regards to a field that had immobilized Mjolnir (Avengers #330).

Originally posted by Mindship

This strikes me as an isolated differentiation. I was always under the impression that Marvel saw them as different, too.

Maybe not. In Marvel there is a tendency for people with hi-tech to have some degree of understanding of magic and even an ability to manipulate it to some degree. In DC scientists tend to be completely in the dark and magic has a tendency to completely override hi-tech.

I'm just going to throw out there "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."

In the Anime series Magic Knight Rayearth, Magic was merely another form of energy that this one group had the technology to be able to detect.

Words like Magic and Supernatural are semantic identifiers to inherently exclude them from the normal realm of possability.

By the very nature of the word supernatural, anything labeled as such does not exist. But that's not to say that certain things can't be improperly labeled due to a lack of understanding of the nature of the designated "supernatural" phenomenon.

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm just going to throw out there "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic." In general, I agree with this statement. A good "for instance" is the 5th dimensional science/technology Imps utilize -- it's so advanced that lower dimensional beings can only perceive it as 'magic'... There is simply no other way to describe it.

I'm glad I came back to check on this thread. I'm almost ready to start using Loki in an example to say why I don't think 'magic' exists, but a lot of the replies reflect that whoever posted has sort of an understanding of where I am coming from with my initial question.

I think it really depends on what you define as "technology", if it's only defined as the manipulation advancement you get from applying science technology is clearly not the same as magic. Science is method and magic uses another method. If you use the word technology to define the advancement made by any kind of human thought, then magic would be a kind of technology anyways.

Bottomline, this is a semantics discussion.

Originally posted by Creshosk


By the very nature of the word supernatural, anything labeled as such does not exist. But that's not to say that certain things can't be improperly labeled due to a lack of understanding of the nature of the designated "supernatural" phenomenon.

Exactly, its not that supernatural entities cannot exits, its just a fallacy to label anything as "supernatural". Talking about the Supernatural, is litrerally meaningless, unless in a sense of it being a possibility.

"That which we cannot speak of, we should be silent about "


Wittgenstien.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Exactly, its not that supernatural entities cannot exits, its just a fallacy to label anything as "supernatural". Talking about the Supernatural, is litrerally meaningless, unless in a sense of it being a possibility.

"That which we cannot speak of, we should be silent about "


Wittgenstien.

It's a good point but to an extent it seems a little silly because this argument could possibly be applied to anything. You could also argue there is no such thing as superhuman.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
"That which we cannot speak of, we should be silent about "


Wittgenstien.

"Also, my name is Wittgenstein, not Wittgenstien. Like in beer stein."

- Wittgenstein

Originally posted by Deadline
It's a good point but to an extent it seems a little silly because this argument could possibly be applied to anything. You could also argue there is no such thing as superhuman. Not really.

Superhuman Adj.
: Beyond ordinary or normal human ability, power, or experience

Since it draws a direct comparison to what is considered normal for humans it doesn't automatically exclude itself.

Supernatural Adj.
: Adj. 1. supernatural - not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material; "supernatural forces and occurrences and beings"
unreal - lacking in reality or substance or genuineness; not corresponding to acknowledged facts or criteria; "ghosts and other unreal entities"; "unreal propaganda serving as news"
natural - existing in or in conformity with nature or the observable world; neither supernatural nor magical; "a perfectly natural explanation"

By the definition of Supernatural it doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Not really.

Superhuman Adj.
: Beyond ordinary or normal human ability, power, or experience

Since it draws a direct comparison to what is considered normal for humans it doesn't automatically exclude itself.

Supernatural Adj.
: Adj. 1. supernatural - not existing in nature or subject to explanation according to natural laws; not physical or material; "supernatural forces and occurrences and beings"
unreal - lacking in reality or substance or genuineness; not corresponding to acknowledged facts or criteria; "ghosts and other unreal entities"; "unreal propaganda serving as news"
natural - existing in or in conformity with nature or the observable world; neither supernatural nor magical; "a perfectly natural explanation"

By the definition of Supernatural it doesn't exist.

Hume uses a very simillar semantic argument, to try and prove that Miracles are impossible by definition.

Originally posted by Deadline
It's a good point but to an extent it seems a little silly because this argument could possibly be applied to anything. You could also argue there is no such thing as superhuman.

No, it only applies, when the subject/entity is nature. I.e. the existential qunatifier if applied to "nature" .

I.e. there is something, and that something is nature.

The problem forms because anything subject/entity, that we percieve, or can possibly percieve, is semantically regarded as "natural" as soon as it is percieved.

So its impossible the percieve and therefore talk about anything beyond nature.

I really think the only difference is how fruity it looks.

I'm refering to the idea of magic just being advanced tech. Another def of supernatural is something that seems to break the laws of nature.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm refering to the idea of magic just being advanced tech. Another def of supernatural is something that seems to break the laws of nature. How does that make something that's superhuman not able to exist, when none of the definitions of superhuman even mentions not existing?

Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm just going to throw out there "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."

In the Anime series Magic Knight Rayearth, Magic was merely another form of energy that this one group had the technology to be able to detect.



I'm talking about this part of your post. Here you are saying that magic is just a highier form of science, so it's not really magic it's just more advanced.

I'm saying you could say a similar thing with superhuman ie it's not really superhuman it's just not obtainable by most people.

Interestingly enough though I guess you could argue that just the fact that superhumans exists means they aren't superhuman but thats just me adding this point now.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm talking about this part of your post. Here you are saying that magic is just a highier form of science, so it's not really magic it's just more advanced.

I'm saying you could say a similar thing with superhuman ie it's not really superhuman it's just not obtainable by most people.

Interestingly enough though I guess you could argue that just the fact that superhumans exists means they aren't superhuman but thats just me adding this point now. I suppose you might have a point if I'd said that and you hadn't horriblly misinterpreted my post.

But as usual, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Ok let's try again.


Originally posted by Creshosk
I'm just going to throw out there "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic."



Originally posted by Galan007
In general, I agree with this statement. A good "for instance" is the 5th dimensional science/technology Imps utilize -- it's so advanced that lower dimensional beings can only perceive it as 'magic'... There is simply no other way to describe it.

Does this help?

Originally posted by Deadline
Ok let's try again.








Does this help? Let's try it this way.

If you were to take a flashlight into the medieval ages they'd think it was magic.

It's not that magic is an advanced science, its that the technology can appear to be magic.

interesting responses. Considering I drove myself crazy trying to define magic...I can sort of relate to a lot of the posts. Or at least comprehend. At this point in time I don't think it's really a debate either. 'Magic' or however you interpret it is a very complex plot device where ever it's used.

And real life...I dunno. Like Cartesian Doubt said, that's one way to look at it. It all depends, though...

I stopped reading eventually, so this may have already been said, and may have already been said better, but I figure I'll toss in my two cents regardless:

I feel like, in comics, often the differentiation between magic and technology (at least, on the relatively lower power levels) is that magic doesn't necessarily have to make sense.

I realize comic tech often makes little sense given the explanation we get, but it's creation and its purpose are often easy to construe. Technology serves as a solution to a problem, where as magic (or magical objects, creatures and miscellany) often seem to exist just... 'cause.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Let's try it this way.

If you were to take a flashlight into the medieval ages they'd think it was magic.

It's not that magic is an advanced science, its that the technology can appear to be magic.

Yes Creshock thats what I'm trying to say part of your argument is, but you're too busy being right to understand what I'm trying to say.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm talking about this part of your post. Here you are saying that magic is just a highier form of science, so it's not really magic it's just more advanced.



In other words a flashlight is a highier form of science compared to medieval science.

Originally posted by Deadline
Yes Creshock thats what I'm trying to say part of your argument is, but you're too busy being right to understand what I'm trying to say.



In other words a flashlight is a highier form of science compared to medieval science. Magic isn't a higher form of science though, I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.

Magic is a blanket term for things that people don't understand in order to keep from needing to think about it. People did the same thing when attributing natural phenomenon they didn't understand to deities.

Don't try and tell me what my argument is if you're going to say something that indicates you don't understand it.

A flashlight isn't really that advanced of technology.