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So aparentley Psi-Lord Franklin Richards held this Title a few years back in Fantastic Force.. but seeing how he had no feats to back up his title.. this battle will determine who should hold the title of PSIONIC SUPREME.

Who do you think has the best showings/skill to hold this Title? Pick from the lineup below or add someone you think who should take it...

Contender's:
*Shaman Nate Grey
*Moondragon (w/MindGem)
*Phoenix Rachel Grey
*Hyperstorm
*Franklin Richards (full Potential)
*Onslaught
*god-like Cable
*Cassandra Nova
*Maxima
*Emma Frost
*Dr Strange
*Exodus
*White Phoenix of the Crown Jean Grey
*Professor X
*Shadow King
*classic Psylocke
*Stryfe

Franklin Richards.

Jean Grey all day everyday. She taps into the nexus of all psionic energy in creation the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by zopzop
Franklin Richards. And easily.

Unless Moondragon is completely and fully tapping into the gem.

What's Franklin done to give him such an elite status?

Originally posted by Galan007
What's Franklin done to give him such an elite status? Full potential Frank is supposed to be celestial level correct?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Full potential Frank is supposed to be celestial level correct? The statement "supposed to be" implies that Frank has no feats to back up the hype surrounding him.

...And the thread starter made it pretty clear that he is looking for the character who has the best psi feats:
Originally posted by RyanAutumns
So aparentley Psi-Lord Franklin Richards held this Title a few years back in Fantastic Force.. but seeing how he had no feats to back up his title.. this battle will determine who should hold the title of PSIONIC SUPREME.

Originally posted by Galan007
The statement "supposed to be" implies that Frank has no feats to back up the hype surrounding him.

...And the thread starter made it pretty clear that he is looking for the character who has the best psi feats:

Franklin Richards

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
recreating Galactus, creating two pocket universes before he hit double digits and all done with self imposed psionic blockers on as he said it the majority of his power. Pretty impressive no? Also when the celestials say that he might be on their level or greater i.e. the incident with Ashema and the pocket universe that created counter earth post Onslaught. I'll take a leap of faith on it considering his already rather impressive feats for his age.

Xavier should be Psionic Supreme.

Mr X

How come J'onn ain't gettin any love here?

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
How come J'onn ain't gettin any love here?

Because it's Marvel terminology. Scientist Supreme, Sorceror Supreme. If Marvel were to hand it out, it really wouldn't go to any abstract people. Probably Xavier.

yet....

Maxima

Originally posted by Warlord
yet....

Maxima


same thought process here...

what about Shaman Nate Grey? does he not have a whole slew of impressive feats?

wheres legion?

Originally posted by shokosugi
wheres legion?
well it does say add someone you think should hold the title

yeah legion should be there

White Phoenix of the Crown

The Martian Manhunter should at least be on your list. (not saying he's number 1, but he's clearly ahead of many of the characters listed on the OP).

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
The Martian Manhunter should at least be on your list. (not saying he's number 1, but he's clearly ahead of many of the characters listed on the OP).

the list is pretty erratic to be only those in contention for "supreme"

Exodus/Emma are massive powerhouses, but not compared to White Crown or even Xavier

Originally posted by inimalist
the list is pretty erratic to be only those in contention for "supreme"

Exodus/Emma are massive powerhouses, but not compared to White Crown or even Xavier

Yeah I noticed that as well.

I don't care for any Jean grey arguments. Personally I think the people that drag her in trying to use jeans feats being the same as the Phoenix may as well just argue Thanos with the ig. Some times Jean is the most uber thing in all of creation and other times she isnt. Unlike scarlet witch whose power was her own...

And in this case I'll go with Franklin for the various already mentioned feats.

Originally posted by Konton
White Phoenix of the Crown

I would doubt that a woman possessed by such a force would be bestowed the title.

Stephen Strange- Sorceror Supreme
Hank Pym- Scientist Supreme
Charles Xavier- Psionic Supreme
Tony Stark- The Engineer
Reed Richards- The Explorer

Originally posted by rotiart
I don't care for any Jean grey arguments. Personally I think the people that drag her in trying to use jeans feats being the same as the Phoenix may as well just argue Thanos with the ig. Some times Jean is the most uber thing in all of creation and other times she isnt. Unlike scarlet witch whose power was her own...

And in this case I'll go with Franklin for the various already mentioned feats.

Jean was retconned to BE the Phoenix. I only chose Jean here anyway because the topic creator specified White Phoenix of the Crown in his list. She, in my opinion, has the best psionic feats.

1. Phoenix
2. Onslaught
3. Professor X

Originally posted by Konton
Jean was retconned to BE the Phoenix. I only chose Jean here anyway because the topic creator specified White Phoenix of the Crown in his list. She, in my opinion, has the best psionic feats. that retcon is kinda iffy though

Originally posted by GRIMNIR
1. Phoenix
2. Onslaught
3. Professor X Originally posted by 753
that retcon is kinda iffy though Your telling me that Franklin Richards is below prof X....

Originally posted by Uriel005
Your telling me that Franklin Richards is below prof X.... huh?

Originally posted by 753
huh?

hey, you said it

Originally posted by 753
that retcon is kinda iffy though

It was pretty well established in Warsong/Endsong. It's not like it was just mentioned in passing or vague dialogue. It was a major revelation to Jean lol

Originally posted by Konton
It was pretty well established in Warsong/Endsong. It's not like it was just mentioned in passing or vague dialogue. It was a major revelation to Jean lol it's iffy, if you believe, as many do, that it was an actual retcon and jean had been the phoenix all along as it can't account for the phoenix's history.

a more reasonable interpretation of events is that jean grey merely merged with the force at that particualr moment in the end of endsong and became one with it.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Your telling me that Franklin Richards is below prof X....

Is there a definitive answer established?

I am not saying more powerful overall, but more powerful telepath.

Better when characters have a weakness otherwise they are unstoppable and then stories need PIS and CIS to end the story

Originally posted by GRIMNIR
Is there a definitive answer established?

I am not saying more powerful overall, but more powerful telepath.

Better when characters have a weakness otherwise they are unstoppable and then stories need PIS and CIS to end the story ok I thought you were talking about under stips for psionic supreme as Franklins powers are all psionic in nature and TP is but one aspect of psionics. Xavier would get murderstomped by a reality warp and there is not a damn thing he could do to stop Franklin if he decided to do it.

Originally posted by 753
it's iffy, if you believe, as many do, that it was an actual retcon and jean had been the phoenix all along as it can't account for the phoenix's history.

a more reasonable interpretation of events is that jean grey merely merged with the force at that particualr moment in the end of endsong and became one with it.

There is nothing iffy about it. The original story has Jean unleash her full power and rename herself Phoenix. Even when it was retconned she was said to connect with a primal force that when merged with her called itself the Phoenix, it changes nothing about the history of this otherwise nameless force, the official name Phoenix came from Jean not from the Force. It has been called the Phoenix in every back story about it because that is the name we know it as. Jean is not a host she is a piece of it. Death told her after it was Jeans soul that went to the afterlife when DP killed itself. Jean fully merged with it well before Endsong the process was happening as a result of her secondary mutation, the consciousness awoke but it was too late Jean neglected her Phoenix work and HTC came to pass, then emerged 150 years later and then completed the merge and accepting her role as White Phoenix in HCT.
the most reasonable interpretation is the one that is outlined by Marvel and that is Jean has always since her first encounter with the Phoenix wanted nothing to do with it, but it keeps coming back if Jean was not a piece then it would not always be waiting for her or seek her out and even confuse her "daughter" and clone for her, it would simply move on, Jean wanting to be Jean and nothing more is what keeps them seperate, when she gives in to what she is she and the Phoenix are complete. That being said White Phoenix, which is Jean Grey regardless of how people want to interpret things is psionic supreme, tk that can manipulate all atoms in the universe and amputate timelines and telepathy that can reach other points in space and change the way the world turns out with a simple push all without creating some alternate or pocket reality like legion did by messing with time or franklin did by using reality warping.

^ please, this makes no sense. the PF existed since the dawn of the universe - and before that, having birthed it after the last one died according to x-men forever - and has inhabitted a list of hosts before jean grey was ever born. everything about jean's connecion to it can be explained as her being a favoured host and that alternate future by morrison you mentioned showed quentin quire and a million others as hosts in the white room (mkraan crystal).

the entity has been called phoenix by characters not related to jean, includign abstracts.

jean has not always been the phoenix itself and while she may have merged with it by the end of endsong, this doesn't retcon the original explanation of the DP saga - that the power was all hers - back into continuity. clearly, the phoenix exists by itself, independent of jean and and JG herself has not always manifested the PF, even if one might claim she's had a lingering connection to it.

The Phoenix Force exists without Jean, but Jean doesn't exist without the Phoenix. Her secondary mutation was to become the perfect avatar for it, and the two have bonded in power and spirit.

Originally posted by Konton
The Phoenix Force exists without Jean, but Jean doesn't exist without the Phoenix. Her secondary mutation was to become the perfect avatar for it, and the two have bonded in power and spirit. this, I can accept.

Originally posted by 753
^ please, this makes no sense. the PF existed since the dawn of the universe - and before that, having birthed it after the last one died according to x-men forever - and has inhabitted a list of hosts before jean grey was ever born. everything about jean's connecion to it can be explained as her being a favoured host and that alternate future by morrison you mentioned showed quentin quire and a million others as hosts in the white room (mkraan crystal).

the entity has been called phoenix by characters not related to jean, includign abstracts.

jean has not always been the phoenix itself and while she may have merged with it by the end of endsong, this doesn't retcon the original explanation of the DP saga - that the power was all hers - back into continuity. clearly, the phoenix exists by itself, independent of jean and and JG herself has not always manifested the PF, even if one might claim she's had a lingering connection to it.

The Phoenix Force made it's debut in comics with Jean Grey and thus was called the Phoenix after that in every back issue regarding a once nameless non-sentient force, as I tried to explain before the use of the name in retrospect is for the sake of the reader, why not continue to call it what it is after it's first appearance? When it hosted that Shi'ar it was not called Phoenix it was called Phalkon and Feron and company first referred to it as a celestial elemental or something like that. None of this makes it and Jean being the same any less true. The very nature of the White Hot Room explains how a mutant can be one and the same with a force that is older than the universe, you are always there waiting for yourself to arrive, this is a realm that is outside of time and space, the nexus of all realties, Jean is a piece of the whole, she is it's body when she is in the mortal coil, her blood can give you it's power, her genes can cause you to inherit it's power.
I give no argument that it is not independent of her, she was born billions of years later, yet she was always connected to it even before the shuttle, it had been a part of her, an aspect of her that reached out to Scott when he was in the orphanage was an adult Jean surrounded by the raptor and flame. The Phoenix has always been a part of Jean Grey and Jean has always been a part of the Phoenix in no way means that the Phoenix was created by Jean. It means Jean was created to be it's body, the house where it lives and was just as much a missing piece during Endsong as the rogue piece that thought it needed Scotts power to heal. It was hurt and confused and it went to find Jean, Rachel was on Earth if all it needed was a host (and she was another of it's favs "the Phoenix likes me remember" she would have been sufficient, but she wasn't. why because the longing and confusion that piece felt was from Jean, that's why it thought it needed Scott, until Jean came and let it know otherwise. And like I said the White Phoenix merge happened in HCT before Endsong, and before this Jean was already White Phoenix after the suicide of DP, she was shown in the center of creation creating afterlives for the beings DP killed, which adds more credence to the whole Jean is Phoenix, Phoenix is Jean and the you are always there waiting for yourself to arrive. At least four times in different points in Xmen history Jean has been shown in the afterlife as White Phoenix.

what you are arguing is metafictional. of course phoenix first appeared connected to jean, it was created through a retcon to be that way as in the original story phoenix was just the codename jean adopted when her powers developed. abstracts refer to it as the phoenix force and the flaming bird signature was dispalyed by hosts prior to jean.

the cryptic literary embelishments used by morrison can be interpreted in a million different ways and while your watchmen like interpretation of the timeflow in marvel is certainly elegant and appealing, it's not really conclusive evidence of anything.

we know the following, the PF predates JG and has possessed a number of hosts. JG has not manifested the force or even been connected to continuously throughout her life. endsong says theyre one. I prefer to view it as JG merging with phoenix at that point.

were the other hosts in the white hot room parts of the PF as well? are all hosts? QQ calls her a white phoenix of the crown. is he the only one? is hse more phoenix than him and the others? what about all the moments she did not manifest the force or had no powers? there is too much to explain if we assume shed been the PF all along.

Originally posted by 753
what you are arguing is metafictional. of course phoenix first appeared connected to jean, it was created through a retcon to be that way as in the original story phoenix was just the codename jean adopted when her powers developed. abstracts refer to it as the phoenix force and the flaming bird signature was dispalyed by hosts prior to jean.

the cryptic literary embelishments used by morrison can be interpreted in a million different ways and while your watchmen like interpretation of the timeflow in marvel is certainly elegant and appealing, it's not really conclusive evidence of anything.

we know the following, the PF predates JG and has possessed a number of hosts. JG has not manifested the force or even been connected to continuously throughout her life. endsong says theyre one. I prefer to view it as JG merging with phoenix at that point.

were the other hosts in the white hot room parts of the PF as well? are all hosts? QQ calls her a white phoenix of the crown. is he the only one? is hse more phoenix than him and the others? what about all the moments she did not manifest the force or had no powers? there is too much to explain if we assume shed been the PF all along.

I have given you an instance in her life before becoming an Xmen in which an aspect of her consciousness manifested as Phoenix establishing an early connection between the two, her conversation with Death when she first appeared as White Phoenix is about how the Phoenix is her birthright, which suggests that she was chosen even before her birth. Her not continuously manifesting it or showing a connection is due to Jean refusing to accept being Phoenix until Xmen Forever when it is mentioned that her connection to the Phoenix is a result of human evolution and not simply being a host or favorite. When Jean has died and travels to the afterlife that afterlife is the center of creation and in all instances when she is shown there she is White Phoenix, White Phoenix represents Jeans complete merge with the Phoenix this has been happening since before Endsong.
She is more Phoenix than them because she is the White Phoenix, it's apparent in What if Vulcan became Phoenix, all the other hosts are "killed" the power of the Phoenix they wield is absorbed, there are no more hosts only Vulcan and yet, Jean because she is the Phoenix and not a host is still active and in control over all the power he took. All this happens in the nexus of all realities in Marvel making it cannon for Jean/White Phoenix since there is only one in the multiverse.

Originally posted by LordKaos
it's apparent in What if... making it cannon

wut?

Originally posted by inimalist
wut?

White Phoenix is a single being in the multiverse there is only one, just like LT all his appearances are canon for his character, not to mention this action took place inside the M'Kraan crystal in the Nexus of Realties, all appearances of the single crystal are canon for the crystal. Was that 616 Vulcan? No, When he left the White Hot Room did he go to 616 no, so yeah that's not canon for Vulcan or 616, but White Phoenix, on top of being what's mentioned above, is 616 Jean Grey fully merged with the Phoenix Force.

lol, WUT?!?!

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, WUT?!?!

I get what he' saying. The PF is a multiversal power. I had the scans both on panel and handbooks but I'm too tired to find/post them. I'll do it later if there's still debate.

The M'krann Crytal exists in all universes in the 616 multiverse simultaneously.

The PF's homeplane, the White Hot Room is located at the heart of the Crystal.

Hence there's only on PF throughtout the multiverse, just like the LT.

yes, but marvel has stated in no uncertain terms that "what if" stories are not cannon.

I suppose your scan could say "this what if is cannon", but short of that, I'm going with company policy here

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, but marvel has stated in no uncertain terms that "what if" stories are not cannon.

I suppose your scan could say "this what if is cannon", but short of that, I'm going with company policy here

No really. This "What if" is as canon as anything in 616 reality.

Follow the logic :

There is only ONE M'krann Crystal and it exists in all universes in the multiverse simultaneously (stated on panel AND in handbooks)

The PF's home plane is the White Hot Room in the heart of the M'krann Crystal (stated both on panel AND in handbooks).

The PF is a multiversal power (stated in the PF handbook) and shown on panel.

IF there is only ONE M'krann Crystal in the entire multiverse
IF the PF's home plane is located at the heart of the Crystal
THEN there is only one PF and all it's showings in the various realities are canon, exactly as stated for the LT and Immortus and others who share this unique property.

can't argue with that logic.

The White Hot Room is the nexus of all realities. So Vulcan murdering the Phoenix Corps is Canon in the sense that the Phoenix Corps existing in the M'Kraan Crystal are all dead.

I think the Phoenix Force is on same level of power and standing as Living Tribunal

Only thing above them both is TOAA

Originally posted by Konton
Jean was retconned to BE the Phoenix. I only chose Jean here anyway because the topic creator specified White Phoenix of the Crown in his list. She, in my opinion, has the best psionic feats.

agreed. but i don't think she should even be ON the list. she's too far above any of these others.

based on a more 'normalized' list (full potential frank shouldn't be here either imo) i'm surprised cassie hasn't gotten more love. she was a beast. shaman was uber as well. problem is the more powerful people don't have the number of feats. so while they are likely greater, the lesser characters HAVE the feats. tough to tell using these stips, tbh.

Originally posted by zopzop
No really. This "What if" is as canon as anything in 616 reality.

Follow the logic :

There is only ONE M'krann Crystal and it exists in all universes in the multiverse simultaneously (stated on panel AND in handbooks)

The PF's home plane is the White Hot Room in the heart of the M'krann Crystal (stated both on panel AND in handbooks).

The PF is a multiversal power (stated in the PF handbook) and shown on panel.

IF there is only ONE M'krann Crystal in the entire multiverse
IF the PF's home plane is located at the heart of the Crystal
THEN there is only one PF and all it's showings in the various realities are canon, exactly as stated for the LT and Immortus and others who share this unique property.

you are using handbooks to show that you know better what is cannon than marvel themselves?

I can't say I buy the arguement /shrug

Originally posted by inimalist
you are using handbooks to show that you know better what is cannon than marvel themselves?

I can't say I buy the arguement /shrug

No reread my post. I'm using handbooks to CONFIRM on panel statements and showings.

ok, yes, sure

like, cool, you can believe that, this isn't a science we can confirm any more than we already have. I think statements from marvel regarding the cannon of What Ifs are what we should use to determine if they are cannon, you think its ok to use inference to come to other conclusions.

I guess my only thinking is, maybe we shouldn't get it into our heads that we know more about marvel than marvel

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, yes, sure

like, cool, you can believe that, this isn't a science we can confirm any more than we already have. I think statements from marvel regarding the cannon of What Ifs are what we should use to determine if they are cannon, you think its ok to use inference to come to other conclusions.

I guess my only thinking is, maybe we shouldn't get it into our heads that we know more about marvel than marvel

Genius, there are events in "What if's" that affect 616 reality. Check the whole "Time Quake" arc!

A "What if" version of Anomaly Maelstrom knocked Quasar into another multiverse and Quasar brought back the Starbrand to 616 reality.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head.

those seem like pretty specific instances...

Originally posted by inimalist
those seem like pretty specific instances...

I give up with you. bash

Enjoy the thread.

I'm sorry to question you.

Maybe in the future, I will know enough about comics to be swayed by entirely nonpersuasive and inconclusive arguements based on rampant speculation

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm sorry to question you.

Maybe in the future, I will know enough about comics to be swayed by entirely nonpersuasive and inconclusive arguements based on rampant speculation

heh.

Originally posted by inimalist
I'm sorry to question you.

Maybe in the future, I will know enough about comics to be swayed by entirely nonpersuasive and inconclusive arguements based on rampant speculation

Genius, you can look this up yourself! How about you actually READ the damn comics in question and stop talking out your ass?

In What if : Rise and Fall of the Shiar empire, it was said by Jahf that (a guardian of the M"krann Crystal) he's seen all these events played out before in different realities from deep within the heart of the Crystal that is the nexus of ALL realities.

This wasn't the first time the M'krann Crystal has been mentioned as unique in the multiverse and the nexus of all realities. ON PANEL

The PF's home plane is the White Hot Room in the very heart of the M'krann Crystal. ON PANEL

The PF is the nexus of all psionic energy in the multiverse. ON PANEL.

Now the beautiful thing about this is, it's been backed up by HANDBOOK info. All relatively recent 2005+

But keep running your mouth, it's amusing.

hmmm, the arguments you used weren't compelling, but when you started insulting me, thats when I began to agree with your points. cool!

Originally posted by inimalist
hmmm, the arguments you used weren't compelling, but when you started insulting me, thats when I began to agree with your points. cool!

Here you go Einstein, What If - Rise and Fall of the Shiar :

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7681/arempire2007m003.th.jpg

Backed up from the Handbooks, Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z Update :
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/7517/allnewofficialhandbooko.th.jpg

I could also get and scan the X-Men issue where it mentions the White Hot Room at the heart of the Crystal as the PF's homeplane but I'm not in the mood right now.

yes, exactly, that is the evidence I have found uncompelling. thanks

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, exactly, that is the evidence I have found uncompelling. thanks

Cool! So you fail at reading comprehension as well as logic?

again, you become much more convincing when you insult me

Originally posted by inimalist
again, you become much more convincing when you insult me

At least I'm peppering the "insults" with actual scans, while all you do is run your mouth and act the fool :

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/1497/uncannyxmen462page04.th.jpg

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/410/uncannyxmen462page20.th.jpg

The White Hot Room, the Core of Creation, the Heart of the Phoenix. Notice Psylocke amusing herself with ALL her alternate reality selves across the multiverse.

I've actually never challanged you at your word. I believed you had scans that said everything you claimed, so to just post them isn't changing much. Its not that I didn't think you had the evidence you claimed to, its that I've thought that evidence was weak.

I've said "I don't take What If stories as canon". You provided a couple of examples where the 616 universe has explicity interacted with a specific what if story, so that is interesting, but you really haven't provided any evidence that this particular story should be considered canon aside from it containing a refrence to a unique, multiversal entity, with most of this evidence itself coming from sources which are non-canon.

We simply have different standards of evidence here. Do you know how much crazy shit I could make up about Man-Thing using the "nexus of all realities", what ifs and handbooks? No word of a lie, abstract level, its in a handbook. He represents one of the two constant sides to the universe, the Yang, the male, etc.

Originally posted by inimalist
I've actually never challanged you at your word. I believed you had scans that said everything you claimed, so to just post them isn't changing much. Its not that I didn't think you had the evidence you claimed to, its that I've thought that evidence was weak.

I've said "I don't take What If stories as canon". You provided a couple of examples where the 616 universe has explicity interacted with a specific what if story, so that is interesting, but you really haven't provided any evidence that this particular story should be considered canon aside from it containing a refrence to a unique, multiversal entity, with most of this evidence itself coming from sources which are non-canon.

We simply have different standards of evidence here. Do you know how much crazy shit I could make up about Man-Thing using the "nexus of all realities", what ifs and handbooks? No word of a lie, abstract level, its in a handbook. He represents one of the two constant sides to the universe, the Yang, the male, etc.

The above scans were from Uncanny X-men 462.

From New X-Men 154 :
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/5818/nxm15420.th.jpg

White Hot Room in the heart of the Crystal.

Is there a 616 reference that explicity mentions the events of "What if - Rise and Fall of Shi'ar" as being canon?

Originally posted by inimalist
Is there a 616 reference that explicity mentions the events of "What if - Rise and Fall of Shi'ar" as being canon?

The issue itself mentions it.

The M'krann Crystal is a multiversal object existing on all planes of reality simultaneously. This has been stated repeatedly on panel. If you cant' understand this basic concept then I don't know what else to say.

The events in that alternate universe (What If - Rise and Fall of the Shiar) are being narrated by Jahf who exists in the Crystal. He explains that since he exists inside the Crystal he sees this all ALL other realities. He explains that this event has played itself out before him countless times.

As soon as Vulcan steps inside the Cyrstal, the events that take place are canon 616 because there is only ONE crystal. He acquires the PF and then steps outside the Crystal back into that universe and wrecks havoc. His havoc his ended by Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown who pulls him back inside the White Hot Room in the Crystal. His murder of all the other PF corps didn't affect her because she's tied so closely to the PF that she IS the PF.

And at the end we have Jahf witnessing the events that took place INSIDE and OUTSIDE the crystal and commenting.

This was explained to you by the previous poster but you just ignored it.

Originally posted by zopzop
The issue itself mentions it.

the issue that I see no compelling argument to treat as canon in the first place?

Originally posted by inimalist
the issue that I see no compelling argument to treat as canon in the first place?

Reading comprehension FAIL for the loss!

There is ONLY ONE M'KRANN CRYSTAL IN ALL THE MULTIVERSE. Stated ON PANEL AND IN THE HANDBOOKS.

The NARRATOR OF THE STORY WAS JAHF WHO EXISTS INSIDE THE CRYSTAL.

THE EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE WHEN VULCAN FALLS INSIDE THE CRYSTAL ARE BY DEFINITION CANON.

What don't you understand?

Originally posted by zopzop
Reading comprehension FAIL for the loss!

There is ONLY ONE M'KRANN CRYSTAL IN ALL THE MULTIVERSE. Stated ON PANEL AND IN THE HANDBOOKS.

The NARRATOR OF THE STORY WAS JAHF WHO EXISTS INSIDE THE CRYSTAL.

THE EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE WHEN VULCAN FALLS INSIDE THE CRYSTAL ARE BY DEFINITION CANON.

What don't you understand?

ok, let he try to explain how I see it a bit better.

Lets say there is a book. And, by definition, everything in this book is false. There is an absolute 0 probability that it will be true.

Then, I open the book, and it tells me that it is true. Well, it is easy to know what to trust. Regardless of how compelling the books argument for its own truth might be, there is no chance that it might be true.

Like, you have an interesting argument about the nature of the crystal, cool. I'm not debating whether the crystal is multiversal, or any of your interpretations of marvel cosmology. I'm saying you are using sources that aren't canon. Like, it doesn't matter what your conclusions are if the data you are using to make them is bad, they will always be bad conclusions. If they reference the events in 616, like the examples you gave before, I'll eat my hat, for sure, but like, all I'm saying is that Marvel has repeatedly stated that what if isn't canon.

/shrug

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, let he try to explain how I see it a bit better.

Lets say there is a book. And, by definition, everything in this book is false. There is an absolute 0 probability that it will be true.

Then, I open the book, and it tells me that it is true. Well, it is easy to know what to trust. Regardless of how compelling the books argument for its own truth might be, there is no chance that it might be true.

Like, you have an interesting argument about the nature of the crystal, cool. I'm not debating whether the crystal is multiversal, or any of your interpretations of marvel cosmology. I'm saying you are using sources that aren't canon. Like, it doesn't matter what your conclusions are if the data you are using to make them is bad, they will always be bad conclusions. If they reference the events in 616, like the examples you gave before, I'll eat my hat, for sure, but like, all I'm saying is that Marvel has repeatedly stated that what if isn't canon.

/shrug

Bro, if it was "my" argument I wouldn't care if you agreed or disagreed, since it was me offering my opinion. This is stated on panel and in the handbooks.

How about this, how bout you provide scans showing this to be false. Ie : the PF is not multiversal, it's home isn't in the heart of the M'krann Crystal, it's home plane isn't the White Hot Room, the M'krann Crystal isn't a multiversal object. It should be easy to prove any of the above false with a retcon.

Do that and I'll shut up otherwise I'm done with this conversation.

none of those are the argument I'm making though...

what I'm saying is that What if isn't canon and that you can't infer something is canon through the use of non-canon sources.

Originally posted by inimalist
none of those are the argument I'm making though...

what I'm saying is that What if isn't canon and that you can't infer something is canon through the use of non-canon sources.

Jesus............wallbash

He's just F'ing with ya zopzop.

Jean shouldn't be Psionic Supreme anyways.

I think what he's trying to say is that not everything in the What if RAFOTSE is canon. Just the bit when Vulcan enters the White Hot Room and murders the Phoenix Corps. The Vulcan may be from an AU but those Phoenix Corps residing in the WHR reside in all realities so to speak. Cause there's only one WHR.

But I'm really not what the argument is about or how that changes anything.

even if that vulcan had slayed all the hosts inside the mkraan at that moment, why should we assume the jean grey that stopped him is the one from the 616? whi do we assume there is no other "white phoenix"?

Originally posted by 753
even if that vulcan had slayed all the hosts inside the mkraan at that moment, why should we assume the jean grey that stopped him is the one from the 616? whi do we assume there is no other "white phoenix"?

That Jean isn't from 616. Niether is the one from Here Comes Tommorrow.

Jeans body is still lying in a graveyard apparently in 616.

The one on the WHR exists out of space and time so I'd say rather then being 616 she's collectively every Jean from every reality at some times. Kind of like what Rachel and Psylocke showed in the HoM UXM issues.

And there are other White Phoenix's. Celeste from Warsong for instance.

My interpretation is that White Phoenix is a state of mind. Celeste was the only Cuckoo capable of handling the Phoenix because she was able to give herself away to it, the same way that Jean did. Emma and the other Cuckoos are too cold (See Warsong).



http://www.brokenfrontier.com/columns/p/detail/full-blown-reader-qa

I also believe that the Phoenix Force is a force and that Jean isn't the Phoenix. Jean's mutation allows her to manipulate this force just like Magneto's mutation allows him to manipulate magnetism. There are many Phoenix hosts.