Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

This is something I have been musing on lately. Bear with me.

Qui-Gon Jinn is the maverick, definat and reckless Jedi Master who believes his instincts and the Force will lead his actions to the ultimate good. His taking Anakin away from Tatooine is exactly one of these instincts of his. The Council seems at first very unsure of this action.

To quote GL: "It is clear that Qui-Gon took a very dangerous decision... but one that may be ultimately correct."

Certainly as soon as it is confirmed that the Sith are back, the Council changes its mind. Yoda is outvoted by the Council and Anakin's training is approved.

By the time of AOTC, Yoda appears to have changed his mind. He and Windu are not only happy with Anakin being trained, they are prepared to send his inexperienced self off on an important mission with a dangerous emotional connection for him. Even Obi-Wan questions this decision. he mentions Anakin's arrogance. Yoda then gives an interesting spiel on the problem of arrogance in the Order... but completely fails to refute Obi-Wan's point. A nice piece of evasion.

The attitude of Windu and Yoda seems to be to 'have faith' in Anakin. A strange change of attitude indeed! Any number of us could be shouting at the cinema screen, saying what a bad idea this is. These two, though, are the wisest in the Galaxy. What could be motivating them to such apparent folly?

So I think they are risking Anakin on purpose. It is only a vague, mad idea, but here are some points in support.

Qui-Gon believed in action first, feeling and not thinking. And so he produces Anakin. The other Jedi are more passive, believing in thought before action, taking a step back and predicting things and then reacting to them. But they find this power FAILING, due to the actions of the Sith- something they dare not admit, as revealed in AOTC, Yoda will tell others that the Dark Side cloud things, but not that the Dark Lord of the Sith has so terribly impaired their predictive power. The Jedi ways are failing and Yoda fears the worst.

Let us not forget that despite his failings, QGJ was a greatly respected Jedi Master. Mayhaps Yoda and Windu start to believe that he had a point after all. His instincts were not clouded like the Jedi's perceptions have been.

And so by the time Obi-Wan starts to believe that training Anakin is a bad idea... these two start to think it is a good one!

To proceed.

Anakin may be the Chosen One. As viewers we know it, and QGJ was certain of it. The other protagonists are unsure. They know if he IS, then he will balance the Force. They know the Sith are moving and things are not looking good. How will this Chosen One balance the Force? They do not know any details. But clearly the Chosen One must be instrumental.

At the very least, I think they cut Anakin loose in AOTC because they think that the Chosen One cannot achieve anything bottled up in the Temple.

At the most, I think that Yoda has already worked out that the way the Chosen One will balance the force is to kill the Dark Lord AFTER becoming his apprentice, and is prepared to let Anakin fall in order for this prediction to come true.

I am not, of course, suggesting that Yoda and Windu are prepared for the Order to be destroyed and the Galaxy taken over. GL lets us know that several 'mistakes' lead to this happening, even from Yoda. Is this Yoda's mistake? If so, I would think that the crutch of the mistake is not in the plan itself (which, after all, works EVENTUALLY), but in not spotting that the Dark Lord was right next to them all the time.

Let's look at some things that would fit this.

Some people have come up with the idea that Anakin deliberately falls knowing that this will later be the only way to save things., I hate this idea. Justifying Anakin's evil actions removes his moral complicity in them and destroys the central moral mainframe of the story. But if it is someone ELSE'S plan... hmm....

"How will you know when you have gone too far?" asked the Mysteries trailer for AOTC. Attributed to Mace. Some took this as evidence of his treachery, but clearly not so. But is it that this plan of letting Anakin loose to 'flush out' the Sith the thing they are not sure of? Yoda senses Anakin's pain and disquiet when he kills the raiders. It is possible he had been using the Force to track Anakin all this time. And when they hear the news of this disaster? Do they panic? Do they say "Oh my, he may be falling, we should go help him at once!". No,. Mace simply looks thoughtful. Maybe thoughtful because this is a possibility he has already considered?

Ok, this is only a vague idea. And I am not saying that they are deliberately engineering his fall. But I DO think they are RISKING Anakin; that they have cut him loose because they now think he is the Chosen One, know he is important, and they want to see what will happen when he is let go.

This would explain their otherwise highly questionable decision to let him caper around solo turning evil whilst years before they were against even training him. But failing to spot the true presence of the Sith means that this is a mistake that will cost the Order its existence. And because they have become so focussed on their predictive powers, rather than Qui-Gon's belief in instincts (dangerous, but effective), the Order will pay the price.

What do you think?

the more I read of it the more correct it seemed..but of course i don't have a clue..

if SW was supposed to be complicated then I think USH really have a point, but SW aint that deep. But for the sake of the arguement/discussion

this can also be a test of if Anakin is ready for the "final" trials to step out of the padawan ranks and become a jedi knight

I think they sent Anakin because Padme knew him and would be comfortable with him, plus they seemed a little thin on the gound becuase they had Jedi's off on other assignements trying to keep the Republic together. Hadn't Obi-Wan and Anaking just returned from Anison.

It's not actually THAT complex, there is just a lot of plot around it. I am willing to believe it is possible.

Cool idea, Ush, really cool. Although I do have to agre with Finti as well that it sounds pretty complex for SW.

It does fit nicely with the unfortunatly cut scene between Windu and OB1, quoted on the back cover of the novel: "You must have faith he will bring balance to the Force."

However, something must have gone wrong even to Yoda's point of view by the time of ESB. The way he talks to Luke about cutting his training short. If this theory is true than all hope for balance must have gone by the time of ESB, as he says to Luke that only a fully trained Jedi Knight can defeat Vader and the Emperor (nice and interesting sequence there with the PT - as if Vader was also the decisive element for Palpy's power - no Vader, no Emperor). In fact he states "On this all depends", so all in all, the entire idea in the long run must have been abandoned (if Ush's theory is right) and that in the end it would take Luke for it all to work out. Now I do doubt they had forseen that.

Yes. Mace Windu and Yoda are probably testing Anakin. The force is strong in the Skywalker family.

Dunno. If USh is wrong, he certainly did detect some weird discrepancies in Jedi Council behaviour.

Indeed. Wierd, this thing is.

But even 'testing' Anakin seems a remarkable risk, seeing as his own tutor says he is arrogant, and he is obviously in many ways immature... and on THAT mission of all missions! One with Padme! I do believe that is more than just chance.

I dunno about Yoda giving up on it- I think OBI-WAN does, but I dunno if Yoda is a bit more distant about it...

"Stopped they must be, on this all depends." That pretty much says it's not going to happen by itself.

That's a pretty cool idea Ush. You should send that one to GL !!
Even if he wasnt thinking along those lines, he might take it up !
That would be a really nice twist in the story.

Oooh, ta.

No, really !

It certainly seems plausible that they would want Anakin to be free of some of the normal shackles if he is the chosen one, destined to bring balance to the force. However I cannot see them doing this without significant and deep thought about what form this balance will take.

Indeed. It's quite a big sacrifice... and waht will they get in return. I mean, the end of ROTJ looked more like a restoration of the old than something better than before.

Which is why the idea that Vader is a good guy after all has always seemed a bit dodgy to me. Yeah he defeats the Sith... but only after wiping out the Jedi Order in the first place, which I analogise to planting a new treew after burning down the forest, and expecting people to be grateful. Better, surely, to not burn down the forest?

UNLESS, of course, it is shown that Palpatine would have won anyway, Vader or no Vader. But I suspect that Anakin will actually be instrumentla.

I think so too. I love the theory, but it might be a tad too complex for SW.

It's no more complex than the plotline GL already has running.

it's all about the plot.

I think the plot wouldn't be considered so complicated if he'd tell it a bit more obvious. But yes, it's pretty clever and cunning, much more than what he ahs now, but also very much for die hard fans.

which leads back to a bit too complicated

complicated plot

Indeed.

Palpatine's knowledge of the force is so grand that I believe he knew he couldn't conquer the galaxy without the chosen one. He probably believed the force would be brought into balance once anakin helped him destroy the jedi order, of course he is wrong, but his overconfidence is his weakness.
Without Anakin, Palpatine would never have been able to take down all of the jedi by himself, he is not the warrior Anakin/Vader was. Look at his name, Sidious, or Insidious, he's a puppet master and a trickster, who just happened to plot the destruction of the jedi order. Anakin was deceived as he just wanted to be recgnized for his deeds, that was his one beef with the jedi and Sidious knew that.

yoda said he was to old to train anakin and he would be wreckless but you forget obi-wan said in the empire strikes back when luke first found yoda he said he was to old to train and then obi-wan says was I not reckless yoda then said he has hate like father so I think yoda new that things were going to get tough with anakin because but I don't think they made him turn to the darkside that was all palpatines doing and anakins emotions towards padame all the others especially his mother. for now may force be with you.

I agree, Yoda knew it would be extremely hard to train Anakin, which is why Yoda reluctantly allowed it to happen. Also he wasn't sure about training Luke because Luke was so much like Anakin at that time, but like with Anakin I think Yoda felt he had no choice.
Anakin was the chosen one, how could they not train him?
and Luke was the only one with enough life in him to tackle the empire, Yoda is too old and he knows he will soon pass into the force.

Cool theory, if a bit convoluted.

I seriously doubt it's ever something that Lucas would come out with, since his plots are just never that deep. But hey, after Episode III, maybe you can add it to the EU.

"Arrogance is a trait all too common in Jedi these days." Yoda said some form of that quote to Obi Wan just before Anakin went off to protect Padme. Maybe Yoda was including himself in that line of thought. Maybe they did let Anakin fall in hopes that he would balance the force. However, because of their arrogance they could not see the consequences of their actions. It is all maybes at this point, but I like the train of thought we are working. I don't know about you guys, but no matter how angry Anakin gets I still like the character and feel bad about where he is going to end up. If his friends fail him and let him fall to the dark side it will allow me to still like the character and, in turn, look at Vader in the original trilogy in a whole new light.

I have a feeling Yoda was including himself as you mentioned, afterall the darkside has been so absent from the galaxy (or at least, the Jedi's site) that they assumed that Anakin would without a doubt come out okay. Although I still think if yoda was so fearful of Anakin's training he should have done it himself, then Sidious would have gotten his ass beat.

EXCELLENT thread, Ushgarak.

the question that rings in my head is "does yoda forsee anakin's fall?"
the answer, i believe, is YES. do i think yoda is setting him up for a fall?
i believe NO. does yoda believe that anakin must fall in order to save
the galaxy and fulfill the prophecy? i think so.

my theory is this:

it will be revealed in ep3 that the prophecy explains in detail that the "one"
will destroy the sith by the only possible means: to join the sith master, then kill him. i think that only a chosen few in the order know of the ENTIRE prophecy. those being yoda and mace. thus, their total lack of enthusiasm when faced with overwhelming proof that they had found "the one".

now lets flash-forward to ESB, when yoda trains luke.
he trains him to feel the force, be passive and calm, clear his mind of thoughts,
and every other jedi discipline >>>EXCEPT FIGHTING<<< never once does he train luke to weild a saber, or do a force-push...nothing. in fact, luke's only saber training was on the millenium falcon in ep4, thats it.

yoda makes no mention on killing vader. only "conquer" and "confront", but never kill. yoda makes luke go into the dark cave and urges luke to NOT bring his weapons. luke ignores this, brings the saber, kills the phantom vader, and thus FAILS the test.

so i say that yoda has a plan. not one that he just concocted by himself, but one that he felt he must follow to fulfill the prophecy. luke was trained to bring vader back to the light. probably because vader was the only one powerful enough to kill palps.

I read an excerpt from an interview late last year that said we would look at the Vader/Obi Wan confrontation a different way after we saw episode 3. The interview was probably on the Force.Net. Anyway, the guy interviewed, somehow connected to Star Wars, said he was extremely sad when he watched that dual after knowing what happens between Obiwan and Anakin in EP 3. Maybe Obiwan knows Anakin has been set up, too. As part of the prophecy, that is. Heck, maybe even Anakin knows.

Maybe Yoda will be surprised when Anaikin turns evil:

"So it was YOU that I could sense the dark-side in, I always thought it was Jar Jar, oh well what can ya do. Scarred you are now, hehehehehe, burnt to a crisp, you are. How feel you, crispy fry?"

*Vader runs after Yoda, Yoda gets in his mini-X-Wing"

"Escape to Sesame Stree.......er, to Dagobah, I will!"