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How does the son of Judomaster, the man who has owned Bane and Katana stack up against other DC Martial Artists? Pure hand to hand, what odds does Tommy get.

Batman (Dick)
Batman (Bruce)
Shiva
Richard Dragon
Bronze Tiger
Cass
Connor Hawke
Black Canary

Didn't Bane KILL him?

And his father would have been a better matchup. Judomaster is top 10 MA, IMO.

I was just going to make a thread on Judomaster, the OG.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Didn't Bane KILL him?

And his father would have been a better matchup. Judomaster is top 10 MA, IMO.

I was just going to make a thread on Judomaster, the OG.

Bane killed his father. Tommy railed him, and then left him alive choosing not to kill him.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Bane killed his father. Tommy railed him, and then left him alive choosing not to kill him.

Was that one on one combat or Bane using prep?

I think it was a large donnybrook free for all.

And what is your opinion on this?

Also, where do you rank Judomaster, Manhunter (from series), and Tommy.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
And what is your opinion on this?

Also, where do you rank Judomaster, Manhunter (from series), and Tommy.

I'm not sure where I would place the original Judomaster, I'm not sure he would make it into a top 10. I think Tommy is supposed to be more skilled.

Which Manhunter? Kirk?

kirk. and do you think tommy is top 10?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
kirk. and do you think tommy is top 10?

I think Kirk as being more less Deathstroke, with less appearances.

I'm not sure about Tommy. He really put the boots to Bane, and he doesn't have any embarrassing loses that I can think of (but I haven't read Checkmate in a while, so maybe he does but I've forgotten). I don't think Shiva or Dragon could have dispatched Bane as easily as Tommy did, that's why I wanted to see other peoples opinions. I wouldn't include him in a list due to lack of feats, but he might be running for top 5.

hmm interesting. q99 should be in here soon.

I'd say he's probably around Canary's level personally. He has a good chance against Dick or Dinah or Conner, but he's below Cass, Bruce, Dragon, and Tiger.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say he's probably around Canary's level personally. He has a good chance against Dick or Dinah or Conner, but he's below Cass, Bruce, Dragon, and Tiger.

I don't know, owning Bane is way more impressive that stalemating one of the Twelve Brothers in Silk. I'd say he is above Dinah but a decent margin.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't know, owning Bane is way more impressive that stalemating one of the Twelve Brothers in Silk. I'd say he is above Dinah but a decent margin.

Dinah accounted for more than one in the free-for-all (the one she fought solo seemed to be the strongest of the lot). She's also fought a lot of people other than the Brothers.

Originally posted by Q99
Dinah accounted for more than one in the free-for-all (the one she fought solo seemed to be the strongest of the lot). She's also fought a lot of people other than the Brothers.

The brothers are featless nobodies created for the solo purpose of artificially elevating Black Canary's MA cred. Dinah stalemating the best brother is her best feat, and it's not as good as beating Bane let alone own Bane.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The brothers are featless nobodies created for the solo purpose of artificially elevating Black Canary's MA cred. Dinah stalemating the best brother is her best feat, and it's not as good as beating Bane let alone own Bane.

The brothers we saw in combat with: Richard Dragon, Conner Hawke, Wildcat...

Dinah also is highly respected by Shiva, beat Cheshire pretty easily (and she is not a poor martial artist), we've seen spar with Diana, train with Cassandra and Nightwing, took Deathstroke's eye...

Originally posted by Q99
The brothers we saw in combat with: Richard Dragon, Conner Hawke, Wildcat...

Dinah also is highly respected by Shiva, beat Cheshire pretty easily (and she is not a poor martial artist), we've seen spar with Diana, train with Cassandra and Nightwing...

And Huntress, Savante and Creote...

The Armless and Legless masters were also respected by Shiva too.

Beating Chesire is about as impressive as Jason Todd owning Oynx. Chesiere is like a less skilled Madame Viper, she is more of a poisoner than a MA. Training matches don't matter.

Storm has beat Wolverine in a training match. Robin has beat Shiva in a training match. That's largely the point of a training match.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

The Armless and Legless masters were also respected by Shiva too.

Yes, and they were great masters of students who individually gave Batman a tough struggle, as well as training Catwoman. That they were able to put up some fight against Shiva despite lacking limbs speaks highly of their skills too.

Dinah was not only on Shiva's list of top 25 on Earth, but moved up on it a few slots during the story, before she got training from Shiva which likely helped more.



Her thing is using martial arts and poison in conjunction.



Not if the people are both taking it seriously.



I'm unfamiliar with the first, and I'm pretty sure the second didn't happen unless Shiva gave herself some sort of major handicap.



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There's clearly plenty of feats despite attempts to write them off.

Chesiere has been owned by Roy. It's been a long time since she beat Slade and was giving the Titan's trouble, and if we are being perfectly honest the Titans kind of sucked back then. They could hardly beat anyone. Canary might have "lots of feats" but none of them support the level of skill she has been attributed with. Outside of stalemating one of the Twelve brother's of silk everything she has done is tantamount to Storm beating Yukio.

Tim did beat Shiva in a sparing match. Don't remember when... sometime in the early 90s. He laid her out with his bow staff, and said she underestimated him and the next time she would kick his ass.