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Each is under telepathic attack...who will resist it best? and who is most vulnerable?

Rank them

Did Wonder Woman lose her enchantment?

Well, classic Wondy wins because she's just outright immune. Supes would be most vulnerable. I'd put Surfer above Thor.

Current Wondy may be barely a step ahead of Kal as far as grit goes. Surfer would be first. Thor second.

Originally posted by Konton
Well, classic Wondy wins because she's just outright immune. Supes would be most vulnerable. I'd put Surfer above Thor.

Current Wondy may be barely a step ahead of Kal as far as grit goes. Surfer would be first. Thor second.

This question is misleading, as there are multiple meanings/layers to "mental attack/assault", and each would respond differently to different types/qualities.

Standard WW isn't *immune* to telepathic assault/reading, but rather highly resistant to it, with her peak resistance correlating to any attack/manipulation that would cause her not to see things as they truly are/perceive Reality(tm) in a manner which was untruthful (hence, she's effectively immune to the mental manipulations of Doctor Psycho, highly resistant to mental dominiation/control (a la' Maxwell Lord), and pretty resistant to direct telepathic assault (many instances), but *can* have her mind be read -- just she is more resistant to casual/non-persistant mind-reading than most would be.

Superman is actually mentally very tough/resistant to many form of TP/Mind Control/Influence/Reading, but qualitatively different from many others': even in the case with Maxwell Lord, the control he exerted was so powerful because he had spent *years* gently nudging Supes mind this way, then that way, and planting suggestions like landmines/traps -- outright control, off-the-cuff, would have been problematic. Supes has pretty good resistance across the board, but isn't immune -- his resistance comes more from having a powerful mind than from a "super-power" that aids him, as such.

Thor, while not as powerful as he was during the more proper Mythic Ages, is still a god, and while certain personality traits leave him vulnerable to certain manipulations/revelations (probing for instances where Thor was angered, or conversly was particularly calm and/or noble, would be fairly easy, given his mindset, and telepathic/telempathic manipulations that would provoke anger -- and particularly righteous indignation -- would be easier than other forms of attack), overall he still has mental aspects akin to many gods (though not nearly as great as many others, as it really isn't his forte'), and is pretty resistant compared to most heroes, contextually speaking. He is less-so *resistant* to mental attacks, as he is strong in *asserting* his will *against* a problem/opposition, meaning he is likely more vulnerable to telepathic attack, and *initial* influence/control, but would be very strong in terms of *breaking* such control, once he was aware of it, and certainly could "push through" many forms of directed influence.

Silver Surfer is the most experienced, contextually, in terms of both asserting his will, resisting certain influences (or at least being aware of and understanding their natures), and comprehending when such things are taking place. He's not mentally unstoppable, of course, and his strongest areas of influence are still more physical than mental, but he is likely the overall best in this group, with each of the other three excelling/exceeding him in the one or two aspects they are best inclined for (WW for perceiving influence/resisting deception; Thor for "bull-in-a-china-shop"-ing his way out of mental control; SM for being more or less on par with many/most telepaths in the assertion/resistance department, though Supes lacks the proper understanding/finesse many would have, particularly SS).

So, as a quick reference, I'd say:

Silver Surfer

Superman, Thor, Wonder Woman, in a more or less three-way tie, with each having advatages/strengths in their particular arenas/inclinations; Supes, however, does have another narrative drawback in that *mystical* telepathy -- as opposed to biological/mutant-based telepathy-- would lower his resistance considerably, and in that regard he is quite behind Thor and WW. In that context, it might be fair to say:
SS

Thor/WW
SM

(Note, however, that I wouldn't put Surfer really "above" them by much, as again it depends on circumstances and specific details... just saying as a general ballpark range...)

Originally posted by tideoftime
This question is misleading, as there are multiple meanings/layers to "mental attack/assault", and each would respond differently to different types/qualities.

Standard WW isn't *immune* to telepathic assault/reading, but rather highly resistant to it, with her peak resistance correlating to any attack/manipulation that would cause her not to see things as they truly are/perceive Reality(tm) in a manner which was untruthful (hence, she's effectively immune to the mental manipulations of Doctor Psycho, highly resistant to mental dominiation/control (a la' Maxwell Lord), and pretty resistant to direct telepathic assault (many instances), but *can* have her mind be read -- just she is more resistant to casual/non-persistant mind-reading than most would be.

Superman is actually mentally very tough/resistant to many form of TP/Mind Control/Influence/Reading, but qualitatively different from many others': even in the case with Maxwell Lord, the control he exerted was so powerful because he had spent *years* gently nudging Supes mind this way, then that way, and planting suggestions like landmines/traps -- outright control, off-the-cuff, would have been problematic. Supes has pretty good resistance across the board, but isn't immune -- his resistance comes more from having a powerful mind than from a "super-power" that aids him, as such.

Thor, while not as powerful as he was during the more proper Mythic Ages, is still a god, and while certain personality traits leave him vulnerable to certain manipulations/revelations (probing for instances where Thor was angered, or conversly was particularly calm and/or noble, would be fairly easy, given his mindset, and telepathic/telempathic manipulations that would provoke anger -- and particularly righteous indignation -- would be easier than other forms of attack), overall he still has mental aspects akin to many gods (though not nearly as great as many others, as it really isn't his forte'), and is pretty resistant compared to most heroes, contextually speaking. He is less-so *resistant* to mental attacks, as he is strong in *asserting* his will *against* a problem/opposition, meaning he is likely more vulnerable to telepathic attack, and *initial* influence/control, but would be very strong in terms of *breaking* such control, once he was aware of it, and certainly could "push through" many forms of directed influence.

Silver Surfer is the most experienced, contextually, in terms of both asserting his will, resisting certain influences (or at least being aware of and understanding their natures), and comprehending when such things are taking place. He's not mentally unstoppable, of course, and his strongest areas of influence are still more physical than mental, but he is likely the overall best in this group, with each of the other three excelling/exceeding him in the one or two aspects they are best inclined for (WW for perceiving influence/resisting deception; Thor for "bull-in-a-china-shop"-ing his way out of mental control; SM for being more or less on par with many/most telepaths in the assertion/resistance department, though Supes lacks the proper understanding/finesse many would have, particularly SS).

So, as a quick reference, I'd say:

Silver Surfer

Superman, Thor, Wonder Woman, in a more or less three-way tie, with each having advatages/strengths in their particular arenas/inclinations; Supes, however, does have another narrative drawback in that *mystical* telepathy -- as opposed to biological/mutant-based telepathy-- would lower his resistance considerably, and in that regard he is quite behind Thor and WW. In that context, it might be fair to say:
SS

Thor/WW
SM

(Note, however, that I wouldn't put Surfer really "above" them by much, as again it depends on circumstances and specific details... just saying as a general ballpark range...) actually I believe that supes TP resistance comes from his "super-concentration"

Originally posted by tideoftime


(Note, however, that I wouldn't put Surfer really "above" them by much, as again it depends on circumstances and specific details... just saying as a general ballpark range...) very good post!

Originally posted by Konton
Supes would be most vulnerable. That's wrong.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Silver Surfer is the most experienced, contextually, in terms of both asserting his will, resisting certain influences Also wrong.

Geez nice 'debating' method guys.

I mean TideofTime made such a long and well thought out post, even if you disagree, I think he deserves a better rebuttal than just a mere one-word "wrong" post.

Superman has the best feats by a landslide. I don't know much about Diana's resistance, and Surfer is superior to Thor.


Kal
Diana/Surfer
Thor


I'm not sure why Surfer is getting the nudge as the most experienced

Superman has the best feats by a landslide? I haven't seen or heard of them.

Why would Surfer be superior to Thor?

It is amusing how you place Diana above Thor when you outright admit you don't know much about her resistance in the very same post. Very Starscream of you.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


It is amusing how you place Diana above Thor when you outright admit you don't know much about her resistance in the very same post. Very Starscream of you. lol hypocrisy much?

you were the one who in one sentence proclaimed no knowledge of runner's durability and then confidently assessed that thor would overwhelm his durability

When non-fanboy people with credibility say that Diana has good tp defenses I'm inclined to believe them. Now, I assume you think the winner would be Thor?


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Very Starscream of you.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Placidity
Geez nice 'debating' method guys.

I mean TideofTime made such a long and well thought out post, even if you disagree, I think he deserves a better rebuttal than just a mere one-word "wrong" post. Anytime he wants to bring a well argumented position, instead of a superficial, albeit well-written text on how he feels things are, I'll be right here.

Originally posted by Bentley
When non-fanboy people with credibility say that Diana has good tp defenses I'm inclined to believe them.

An example is during Sacrifice. Max tried to mind-control Diana before he set Superman on her, but failed.



Also one of her main villains is Doctor Psycho.

Originally posted by Q99
Also one of her main villains is Doctor Psycho.


Yep, I considered that too. Only I haven't really read their encounters so I left it flying

idk how Diana would be tied with Thor or really even Superman when she is the only one of the lot with telepathic resistance ACTUALLY being part of her powerset instead of something narration and plot progression requires for her to get by. The Eye of Pallas allows her to see through any illusion and has allowed her to shrug off mental assault for a while now.

Superman, as illustrated in Sacrifice and several other enounters, has a tendency to fall under mind control and then fight Wondy- who resists it. I get that he has stupid tp resistance feats but still.

I've seen Thor fall for Sersi's illusions and she's kind of blah as far as tp goes.

Surfer is more quantifiable though and I can actually respect his shit.

I say

Diana
Surfer
Thor/Supes

I may agree with Diana, but I'd like to see some feats backing Surfer here, he's bumped up without even citing anything.

Originally posted by Placidity
Geez nice 'debating' method guys.

I mean TideofTime made such a long and well thought out post, even if you disagree, I think he deserves a better rebuttal than just a mere one-word "wrong" post. he just has to get a mod to edit it to say superman, and everyone will be able to sleep at night

max lord took years to get in to superman's mind. using it as some sort of insta-mind control is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Starscream M
lol hypocrisy much?

you were the one who in one sentence proclaimed no knowledge of runner's durability and then confidently assessed that thor would overwhelm his durability

Haha what?

How many times have I stressed the importance of reading my posts before commenting on them? Can you get like a poster of this hung on your wall or something?

Once you outright admitted you replied to my post without taking the time to read.

Either you're the dumbest person I've come across on battle boards, or you're the one with the shortest memory.

Long conditioning is only needed if he wants to make someone a puppet. If he wants to control someone into, say, standing there helplessly, he can do that on the spot.

Originally posted by Bentley
When non-fanboy people with credibility say that Diana has good tp defenses I'm inclined to believe them. Now, I assume you think the winner would be Thor?

Thanks.

The only person that ranked Diana above Thor possessed some inherent biased opinion towards her. Going off of what people post is something you should do by the way.

Does Diana have good telepathic resistance? Sure. Does she have telepathic resistance above Thor, Superman etc.? Not that I've seen. I'd wager I can post telepathic resistance feats for Thor that match Diana's. That being said, I'm not sure who'd win. I think Thor and Superman have the most driving will power however.

Not a compliment.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Haha what?

How many times have I stressed the importance of reading my posts before commenting on them? Can you get like a poster of this hung on your wall or something?

Once you outright admitted you replied to my post without taking the time to read.

Either you're the dumbest person I've come across on battle boards, or you're the one with the shortest memory. OooO burn lol

Originally posted by Q99
Long conditioning is only needed if he wants to make someone a puppet. If he wants to control someone into, say, standing there helplessly, he can do that on the spot.

but he didn't do that with superman. his control was only possible from the years it took of nudging his way in.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The only person that ranked Diana above Thor possessed some inherent biased opinion towards her. Going off of what people post is something you should do by the way.

Don't call 'inherently biased' just because you disagree. There's a pretty solid argument for her.


If you think Thor's got better, post why. Complaining on it's own isn't debating.


---

Here's a question- Who here can name a time Wonder Woman has been mind controlled? I can't, though the hypothetical possibility has been raised (albeit with a specific note that it'd require a massively powerful force to do so).

I can name several that Superman has (both conventional and magic. Dominus, Maxwell Lord, and Crucifier all come to mind. Though the last is one I'm willing to write off as PIS, even with it being magic).

What's Thor and Surfer's track records? Hasn't Amora gotten Thor a few times? And Moondragon did once as well.

I can't think of any instances of Surfer, but someone more knowledgeable might be able to shed some light.

Originally posted by Q99
Don't call 'inherently biased' just because you disagree. There's a pretty solid argument for her.

If you think Thor's got better, post why. Complaining on it's own isn't debating.

Tideoftime has an inherent bias towards Wonder Woman. It's not a knock against the poster. I'm a Thorbag through and through. People have preferences.

I just find it illogical to claim Wonder Woman has better defenses than Thor despite admitting not knowing much about her. When asked for a reason, his response can be summed up as "because that dude above me said it". That's something Starscream would do. Not Bentley. I'm disappoint.

In a contest as specific as this, I'm not sure who'd win. I don't pretend to know every single time said characters have come up against mental manipulation. Thor excluded.

I'm not complaining. Simply pointing out the fallacious reasoning.

Originally posted by Q99
Hasn't Amora gotten Thor a few times? And Moondragon did once as well.

I think she might have been able to control Thor once in the Silver Age. I'm not sure. At the very least, Amora's charms have consistently failed against Thor.

Yup, Moondragon was able to manipulate Thor at one point.

Question: How does Donald Blake apply here? There have been instances where the Thor persona has been controlled but his been able to resist control enough to transform, completely breaking any control.

At the very least, when Thor/Blake work together or merge, there resistance goes up. It's a weird relationship. There the same being/entity, but at the same time they're not.

I have no idea what the relationship is now however.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Haha what?

How many times have I stressed the importance of reading my posts before commenting on them? Can you get like a poster of this hung on your wall or something?

Once you outright admitted you replied to my post without taking the time to read.

Either you're the dumbest person I've come across on battle boards, or you're the one with the shortest memory. you're a clown! how did I misinterpret your post this time?

You clearly said you didn't know runners durability and then proceeded to claim thor would overwhelm it!

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm a Thorbag through and through.

I can think of another type of -bag to call you!!!

Originally posted by Q99
What's Thor and Surfer's track records? Hasn't Amora gotten Thor a few times? And Moondragon did once as well.



Thor got influenced by a weakened Moondragon and more recently by Diablo, he also was unable to break through Korvac's hypnosis.

Moondragon was weakened? Really?

I'm not sure where to rank the Diablo scene. It was claimed by Thor that he learned new magic and such in the new issue so I'm unclear.

Originally posted by Starscream M
you're a clown! how did I misinterpret your post this time?

You clearly said you didn't know runners durability and then proceeded to claim thor would overwhelm it!

I can think of another type of -bag to call you!!!

Find the thread. Read my stance.

Completely false. As a matter of fact, I outright said I don't think the Runner would be knocked out by Thor as I don't know what it would take to knock him out. I only stated that I highly doubted the Runner was beyond Thor's ability to hurt or knock out. I never pushed it as a win. My main argument was battle field removal for Thor.

Did I hurt your feelings?

Here are all Thor's memorable will power feats so people can judge where he ranks by themselves. It's missing three instances of mental manipulation from the First Thunder miniseries however.

Nice feats


You also reminded me that Terminatrix mindcontrolled Thor using techermm

Originally posted by -Pr-
max lord took years to get in to superman's mind. using it as some sort of insta-mind control is ridiculous.

Agree, that is a pretty weak example and leaves out a lot of context

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Tideoftime has an inherent bias towards Wonder Woman. It's not a knock against the poster. I'm a Thorbag through and through. People have preferences.

Whoa -- back it up there... let me clarify something for the umpteenth time:

*I* don't have a bias in terms of WW -- that is an assumption some people make because of the times Quan and I have had opposing views, which is more about *Quan's* biases, than any minor ones I may possess. There have been a number of WW-included threads I have not participated in, and several where I disagreed with others who thought she would win/whatever a given subject. Don't confuse me with h1a8, or certain others...

I never ranked Diana above Thor, but said that she, he, and Supes would be in roughly a three-way tie, but with different areas of emphasis, and in those areas each of the three would have the general advantage over the others, contextually. Now, someone can certainly disagree with that statement/assessment, and I won't nay-say them their opinion. But I *never* ranked her above Thor (unless you, or whomever, are confusing the *order* in which I described my reasonings for the order I'd rank them in... which might occur if someone just cursorily scanned my post, but otherwise I said very clearly at the bottom how I'd rank them).

Just wanting to set *that* record straight...

*****

As far as further up posts questioning my reasonings, I based it largely on both demonstrated instances of resistance (or lack thereof), stated-on-panel instances that I recall (even if they were simply *statements*, rather than action scenes, as they at least provide *some* level of criteria for gauging), and related, conceptual abilities (SS powers, while largely physical in nature, have relatable qualities that can enhance his mental abilities -- his CA, and such, that reasonably affect his awareness/resistance to such things). Note, further, that I didn't qualify the idea that SS was somehow supremely resistant, or that he was much above the group he is included with: I had stated that I ranked him first, but not by much, just more as a means of "If somebody just *has* to be first, I'd put him there". Otherwise, I consider the group to be in the same general ballpark, but with different areas of emphasis and advantages; this isn't a simple thing like brute physical strength, that at least contextually can be better understood/grasped -- it's a much less straigth-forward thing, and very murky when you really start to think about it.

Don't ask me why as I have no reasoning for it but i see supes being the most vulnerable.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Don't ask me why as I have no reasoning for it but i see supes being the most vulnerable. why?

Originally posted by Starscream M
why? creepsmile

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Excellent collection of examples -- I, unfortunately, don't have such, which apparently annoyed someone further up the list, but whatever...

*****

Those examples are point-on about my general assessment of Thor: his *is* resistant, and has the mind of god, and his *greatest* advantages come when he is butting-heads directly against a defined opposition -- Thor certainly has one of the strongest assertive wills around: I'd pit his active will against any GL (yes, even Hal), and sit back with popcorn.

But Thor also has had his share of low-showings (as has everyone, of course), and it pretty much plays out that his *assertive* will is the key to his "wins", in most cases, and I'd place many other beings above him in terms of finessed mental resistances/abilities that aid in mental battles.

But that's my view/take on it.

Now, if you're using that list to put Thor above SS, I'd say that is a good counter-arguement to my (and others') putting SS on top... my scans/caps are very, very limited, so I'll leave it to others to carry on that fight, if they want. Good collection, though, for Thor.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Excellent collection of examples -- I, unfortunately, don't have such, which apparently annoyed someone further up the list, but whatever...

*****

Those examples are point-on about my general assessment of Thor: his *is* resistant, and has the mind of god, and his *greatest* advantages come when he is butting-heads directly against a defined opposition -- Thor certainly has one of the strongest assertive wills around: I'd pit his active will against any GL (yes, even Hal), and sit back with popcorn.

But Thor also has had his share of low-showings (as has everyone, of course), and it pretty much plays out that his *assertive* will is the key to his "wins", in most cases, and I'd place many other beings above him in terms of finessed mental resistances/abilities that aid in mental battles.

But that's my view/take on it.

Now, if you're using that list to put Thor above SS, I'd say that is a good counter-arguement to my (and others') putting SS on top... my scans/caps are very, very limited, so I'll leave it to others to carry on that fight, if they want. Good collection, though, for Thor.

I can honestly say I likes Nova.
and it looks like you likes Wondy.

I put the two gods above Superman but around equal to each other, and Surfer at unknown to me.

The thing about the "biased" argument -I haven't really read tide's comment as biased, at least not any that has marked me-, is that you still need to hear people who actually read WW. I've been enough time in this forum to know some great debaters that were quite versed in Diana and did their fair amount of work to raise the rep of the character. As such, I think it's possible for Wondy to have the best overall showings.

(I've read quite a lot about Thor and Surfer to have an idea of their feats, from what I've read from Superman I'd say he's put into a very positive light, as his writers tend to show off his willpower more often)

On WW, aside from Psycho, Circe has demonstrated very powerful mind control as well.

And Thor? Well, Thor's arch enemy is Loki!

Surfer
Thor/WW Tie
Superman

Bump.

Wonder Woman wins.

It can't be easy being a low level woman superhero while still maintaining that you can keep up with the men

She must have insane mental fortitude that she wakes up everyday just to be smacked around by another guy

I tried to list some of Superman's best mental toughness feats like Rage did. I gave up at top 5, they are just insane.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Dominus tries to break superman by experiencing infinite realities and their information. Guess what happened?

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9112/ccf0528201200007.jpg

Nothing of course

http://i1286.photobucket.com/albums/a601/galan398/th_powers84_zps98d87b1b.jpg




Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman forces mxy twins out of his mind.

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16722324_AdventuresOfSuperman617p20.jpg http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/16722330_AdventuresOfSuperman617p21.jpg

They were universal level telepath BTW, Superman merely smiled at the weight of universe being thrown at his mind though.

http://i.imgur.com/lASHGvG.jpg

Demon Goddess Mistos traps superman into a universe of misery with past, present and future all collapsing onto his psyche. He breaks out of it after Batman does.

http://i.imgur.com/DOZUCdD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/La6dRgs.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L4SOy4e.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/M82V4Ox.jpg

Pure toughness? Superman or Thor, imo.

Though probably Superman.

Superman.

Surfer broke out of the Goddess's influence during Infinity Crusade when Thor didn't.

Originally posted by Tar-Antado
Surfer broke out of the Goddess's influence during Infinity Crusade when Thor didn't. Thor broke free as well.

Thor is the obvious answer for this thread.

Superman.

Superman
Thor/Surfer
Wonder Woman

Surfer.
the rest.

Originally posted by Tar-Antado
Surfer broke out of the Goddess's influence during Infinity Crusade when Thor didn't.
Spider-man did it too.

mmm

Originally posted by abhilegend
Spider-man did it too.

mmm Superman didn't break free from Max on his own iirc.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421807-3102442870-aveng.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421808-5678636634-aveng.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/114090/3421809-8160818904-aveng.jpg

Can't think of a lower showing than that for anyone not named Thor.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Spider-man did it too.

mmm Thor broke free but willpower has nothing to do with power level anyway.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Superman.

1.Thor/Surfer
2.WW
3.Superman

Originally posted by Tar-Antado
Surfer broke out of the Goddess's influence during Infinity Crusade when Thor didn't. Thor did eventually. But I think Surfer broke free first.

IIRC didn't Adam Warlock break Surfer out of it? Been awhile since I read it

Everybody is giving opinions on who's mental toughness is tougher.The big question is, who's outright doing the mental attack?More importantly, can the thread maker specify the level and nature of the mental attack.I think this is the only way to answer this thread in a specified manner Just saying.