Was the Empire really that great?

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CaedusRules
Ok, lets dredge up some discussion. After reading so much of the EU, I can only conclude that the Empire was nothing more then a temporary rebellion in relation to the old and new republic.

The old republic lasted 10's of thousands of years, and the New Republic last for 120 years, while the Empire only lasted 21 years in power before they were beat down by a group of rebels. Really, How strong was their military when the only real war they faced, they lost.

I know there was a reminate, but it was weak. I just don't see how everyone thinks these guys are the big baddies, and why they keep coming up and taking power. Shit Castro has had a longer reign then the Empire.

The Empire is weak, the Vong were a much better adversary. Shit I think the Chiss would have made a better enemy then the Imperials.

Lord Lucien
You do understand that there's a difference between fighting a war and fighting a guerrilla insurgency, don't you? The Vong invasion, the Sith-Imperial War etc., were all "wars"--massive fleets fighting off against an identifiable enemy.

And you do understand that it was Palpatine's ginormous ego that destroyed his Empire, don't you? He created the Rebellion, allowed maniacs like Tarkin to roam free and blow up Alderaan (which helped to antagonize a lot of the galactic populace against the Empire), and failed to foresee that his right-hand man/slave would turn against him.

You do remember that a relatively small fleet of Star Destroyers with a little help from the Death Star II was on the verge of wiping out the entire Rebel Fleet, don't you? Again, Palpatine's method hyper-centralizing himself was he and his Empire's downfall. His Battle Meditation died with him, as did the cult of personality surrounding him. When he died, the Empire went with him, because he was the Empire.

The Empire didn't last long in the scheme of things, and they, like every government, were temporary. But if it hadn't been for an egregious error in Palpatine's designs, he very well almost solidified himself as a permanent ruler in the galaxy for lord knows how long (his cloning technology, remember?). The Empire was the largest military force in galactic history created in the quickest timeframe in history. Yes, they were the "big baddies", and yes, they were "temporary". But in less than 2 and a half decades, it had essentially undone what the vaunted Old Republic had taken 25,000 years to create. To dismiss them as "Meh, not a big deal" just because they didn't last as long, is stupid.




And it's spelled "remnant".

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You do understand that there's a difference between fighting a war and fighting a guerrilla insurgency, don't you? The Vong invasion, the Sith-Imperial War etc., were all "wars"--massive fleets fighting off against an identifiable enemy.

And you do understand that it was Palpatine's ginormous ego that destroyed his Empire, don't you? He created the Rebellion, allowed maniacs like Tarkin to roam free and blow up Alderaan (which helped to antagonize a lot of the galactic populace against the Empire), and failed to foresee that his right-hand man/slave would turn against him.

You do remember that a relatively small fleet of Star Destroyers with a little help from the Death Star II was on the verge of wiping out the entire Rebel Fleet, don't you? Again, Palpatine's method hyper-centralizing himself was he and his Empire's downfall. His Battle Meditation died with him, as did the cult of personality surrounding him. When he died, the Empire went with him, because he was the Empire.

The Empire didn't last long in the scheme of things, and they, like every government, were temporary. But if it hadn't been for an egregious error in Palpatine's designs, he very well almost solidified himself as a permanent ruler in the galaxy for lord knows how long (his cloning technology, remember?). The Empire was the largest military force in galactic history created in the quickest timeframe in history. Yes, they were the "big baddies", and yes, they were "temporary". But in less than 2 and a half decades, it had essentially undone what the vaunted Old Republic had taken 25,000 years to create. To dismiss them as "Meh, not a big deal" just because they didn't last as long, is stupid.




And it's spelled "remnant".

Thank you for restoring sanity to this board.

RE: Blaxican
The Empire's only strength is in it's fleets. Even then, apparently, a small force of 1 man fighters is apprenetly > a super station with its own fleet of 1 manned fighters.

The Empire is powerful, but most of it is due to implied ability.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
The Empire's only strength is in it's fleets. Even then, apparently, a small force of 1 man fighters is apprenetly > a super station with its own fleet of 1 manned fighters.

The Empire is powerful, but most of it is due to implied ability. Granted. It's their size and numbers that provide the bulk of their military power, not marvelous technological enhancements.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Thank you for restoring sanity to this board. That's two you owe me, junior.

truejedi
clearly the empire sucked. Let's get real here. Without their overwhelming numbers and unmatched military buildup, they are no more than a blip in march of history.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by truejedi
clearly the empire sucked. Let's get real here. Without their overwhelming numbers and unmatched military buildup, they are no more than a blip in march of history.

That's like saying, "without a good team, the Lakers wouldn't have won the title last year." Some things are obvious and therefore not needed to be said. I'm assuming you're being sarcastic here, otherwise your point is flawed.

truejedi
the fact that you even have to hint at the fact that you would like a little bit of clarification scares me.

CaedusRules
I still don't think the Empire was all that strong. Like Lord Lucien said, it was all the Emporer. His battle meditation, his insight and planning... It was all him.

Meaning that the Empire itself was nothing, really. The Empire didn't destroy the Old Republic, it obsorbed it. It took all its planets, war ships, senators, systems. They didn't fight to build it, they fought to keep control of it.

It was a very flawed system that relied on 2 people to run it. Without them it was consumed by greed of the moffs, and the laziness and lack of skills of its military. And it all happened in 20 years.

Darth Truculent
The Empire may have had some stupid leadership, but they also had Daala, Thrawn, Vader and the Emp himself. Not to mention virtually almost unlimited numbers and resources. The Rebellion was limited and couldn't fight major engagements everytime like the Seperatists in the Clone Wars. They didn't have access to shipyards or industrial facilities. It was defectors and stolen equipment that aided them.

Lord Lucien stated it perfectly. Not much else to say.

Nephthys
'That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done.' - Han Solo

Pwned
It might have worked.......

The Vong dont have a pilot who can be like "ok, ok i can do this" then hear the ghostly voice of the mentor who died earlier in the movie saying "Use the force, (insert Vong name here)" because the Vong would be like "I cant use the force dumbass!"

"Oh, right, your screwed then, you wont be able to make the shot."

Zampanů
Define "strong." Your post suggests you are talking about administrative, political, cultural, and logistical considerations, while Lucien and everyone else are talking about military strength.

MasterAshenVor
I agree with Han Solo. the Imperial's super weapons sucked.

CaedusRules

RE: Blaxican
Originally posted by Pwned
It might have worked.......

The Vong dont have a pilot who can be like "ok, ok i can do this" then hear the ghostly voice of the mentor who died earlier in the movie saying "Use the force, (insert Vong name here)" because the Vong would be like "I cant use the force dumbass!"

"Oh, right, your screwed then, you wont be able to make the shot." Neither did Lando. no expression

I mean, he's black, sure, but that can only take you so far in life.

Zampanů
Originally posted by CaedusRules
Well when I read the novels I keep hearing how great the Empire was, and even how after they were defeated they were still feared.
"Great" in what way? You are being incredibly vague. The Empire struck fear in the hearts of its enemies by dint of its harsh and authoritarian policies. Genocide, slavery and the establishment of a police state generally tend to leave lasting impressions on the psyche.


To which "people" are you referring? Leia and other politicians are leery of the Empire because it represents a total loss of power; the franchise started with the announcement that "the Senate" had been disbanded. That more than anything, I feel, explains the antipathy toward the Empire espoused by most writers. (The American attachment to democracy lies at the core of any work from that nation; the writers of the saga, being mostly American citizens, naturally embed their deepest (political) convictions in their art.)

I would also encourage you to think about the protagonists of the series. The saga has largely stayed with the (former) members of the Rebellion introduced back in 1977. Those characters are pitted against the Empire; each of the big 3 has some reason to resent Palpatine's administration. Their cohorts, now the supporting cast of the mythos, are similarly drawn from insurrectionist roots. Who sets out to rebel? It is not from those satisfied by Imperial rule that the Rebellion drew from.

This largely explains the prevailing attitude toward the Empire presented in the saga. The protagonists are all characters either displaced or personally hurt by its policies. Luke's family was slaughtered by Storm Troopers; that loss is largely ignored by the films but would have significant effects on his development as a young citizen. Chewie's species was sold into slavery. Leia's entire home planet was destroyed by the Empire. These are the eyes through which the Empire is examined for the reader. Of course there is hate and hurt and fear.

A better example:
The Empire is a militarized Germany North Korea. Within its sphere of influence, personal and civil liberties are non existent. Dissent is disallowed. Its neighbors are all endangered by its existence and it means to expand. There is no hope for tolerance, no chance of peaceful coexistence. And it wants to expand.

Quite rightly, the Empire is viewed much as the NAZI party is regarded today.


It is also important to remember that, despite their emotional scars, none of these characters is portrayed as unintelligent (jabs about Luke aside). They are the moneyed elite, the power brokers, the military junta. They more than anyone else in the galaxy should understand just how dangerous the Empire truly was. Driven back to a handful of planets, Palpatine re-conquered (by force, not by political maneuvering) a huge swath of the galaxy (Dark Empire). Even the fractured holdouts of the Imperial fleet, nothing more than petty warlords, were individually stronger, as a rule, than the military force that opposed the Death Star at the battle of Endor. From a purely logistic standpoint, the Rebellion was a crapshoot.

Basically, you're wrong and there is clear evidence of such. The military might of the Galactic Empire deterred the Vong invasion. The political might of the Empire absorbed and dissipated the standing political traditions of the past 20,000 years. The cultural might of the Empire ensured that a minority race (i.e. the human race) retained ascendancy through several revolutions. Think how rebellions usually treat their (former) oppressors and just imagine how deeply the pro-human sentiment must have reached.

The Empire, despite its short lifespan, was the single most powerful and influential organization in galactic history.

RE: Blaxican
Which is very sad, all things considering.

SwordOfTheJedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien

You do remember that a relatively small fleet of Star Destroyers with a little help from the Death Star II was on the verge of wiping out the entire Rebel Fleet, don't you? Again, Palpatine's method hyper-centralizing himself was he and his Empire's downfall. His Battle Meditation died with him, as did the cult of personality surrounding him. When he died, the Empire went with him, because he was the Empire.

The Empire didn't last long in the scheme of things, and they, like every government, were temporary. But if it hadn't been for an egregious error in Palpatine's designs, he very well almost solidified himself as a permanent ruler in the galaxy for lord knows how long (his cloning technology, remember?).


This. You must have not read 'Heir to the Empire,' CaedusRules, because Thrawn discusses the above points very well.

The issue with Sidious was that, despite his incredible connection to and potential in the Force, he was flawed and arrogant, and could not foresee everything, such as Vader turning on him in the end.

Originally posted by Zampano
Basically, you're wrong and there is clear evidence of such. The military might of the Galactic Empire deterred the Vong invasion.
This too. Outbound Flight novel explains that Sidious knew of the approaching Vong. One could conceivably argue that Sidious' desire to take over the galaxy wasn't just because he wanted to rule the galaxy, but because he knew any delays could bring the Vong in before he was in absolute power, and that the Old Republic was far too weak a regime to repel the invaders.

CaedusRules
Ok, I concede the point. You guys make good arguements, and I'll admit it.

Pwned
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Neither did Lando. no expression

I mean, he's black, sure, but that can only take you so far in life. Ahhh, but Lando had flowing into the unfinished Death Star in the Millenium Falcon, he could easily see the reactor, if the Vong did that, they wouldnt be as fast, have as heavily modified a ship, and might not be as good a pilot as Lando is, (hes pretty good i think =-p) and, if you take Syal Antilles thoughts, they were all brilliant pilots to be able to do that, Tycho, Lando, and them (i forgot the rest)


Also, the Empire, pffft, one guy with some bacon and cookies could take over in a week, hed have the stormies on his side from the food, and Vader would be like "COOOOKIES!!!!!!" and turn on Sidious, thereby killing him with his enhanced bacon-powers

Nephthys
Originally posted by CaedusRules
Ok, I concede the point. You guys make good arguements, and I'll admit it.

You are officially awesome for having said that.

truejedi
Originally posted by Nephthys
You are officially awesome WEAK for having said that.

fixed

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