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1. Who is overall smarter?
2. Who is a better martial artist/fighter?
3. Who has the better will?
4. Who is more durable?
5. Who has better reaction speeds?
6. Who is a better tactician?
7. Who is older?
8. Who can tap into more power, if need be?

Um, the second one. Oreos.

1. Not sure. I can't recall any intelligence showings off the top of my head for Orion but I can for Thor. Of course, I'm primarily a Thor fan.

2. Based on purely feats -at least as far as I've seen- I'd give it to Thor. Orion did come off as impressive against Darkseid and his former master but those are the only legit skilled fighting feats I can think of. Either way, Orion is still probably as formidable in hand to hand combat.

3. I'm not really sure. Based on purely feats -at least as far as I've seen- I'd give it to Thor.

4. Thor.

5. Depends on portrayal. Based on purely feats -at least as far as I've seen- I'd give it to Thor.

6. Orion can go from a raging animal to an actual warrior depending on the writer, so on average I'd give it to Thor.

7. I think Orion was shown to be a full blown adult in like 70,000 B.C. once but that was really out of left field based on what I remember of the New Gods. On the other hand, we also have instances that would indicate Thor being older than man etc. Depends on portrayal I guess.

8. Depends on how the Astro Force is used. If he can be amped by the source or some such, then probably Orion. Other than that, Thor.

One thing is for sure IMO... Orion is the better MA between the two. That said, Thor wins a straight up fight 8/10

1. Who is overall smarter?

Depends on the showing. I think they both get portrayed as pretty stupid fairly often. I can only really point to the Kirby and the Simonson stuff for a truly intelligent version of Orion, but man...he was pretty brilliant in the Simonson stuff, especially towards the end.

On average, Thor, but I'd bet that Orion's highest is higher than Thor's.

2. Who is a better martial artist/fighter?

Orion, definitely.

3. Who has the better will?

Same, probably. I suppose Orion has been tempered more by his own internal demons.

4. Who is more durable?

Orion.

5. Who has better reaction speeds?

Orion.

6. Who is a better tactician?

This is what I was referring to above in regards to intelligence. Orion, some of the time. Thor, most.

7. Who is older?

It depends on which timeline you use. Orion has been around since 40,000 BC at minimum as of Seven Soldiers 1, and he was fully formed at that point, so he'd have to have been around for a few thousand years before that. The official Byrne timeline has him at about 300 years old, which would be significantly younger than Thor.

8. Who can tap into more power, if need be?

Orion's capable of tapping into "Source of the Beast", True form, etc.

Thor into the "Godblast". Probably about even when it all comes down to it.

Question Prep Man: You said better martial artist. Does that translate into better combatant or whose more formidable in hand to hand? Because I believe that Orion is a better martial artist but I don't believe that makes him a more effective or formidable fighter.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Question Prep Man: You said better martial artist. Does that translate into better combatant or whose more formidable in hand to hand? Because I believe that Orion is a better martial artist but I don't believe that makes him a more effective or formidable fighter.

Either or. You can use both.

I think Orion is a better martial artist but I think Thor's is at least as an effective and formidable fighter in hand to hand.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I think Orion is a better martial artist but I think Thor's is at least as an effective and formidable fighter in hand to hand.

The thing is though, that Orion is quite close to Thor in strength and durability. Thus, if one is more skilled they should clearly have the advantage in this area. I think Thor wins because he's decent enough to compete in h2h with Orion, and then let his other powers carry the day.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The thing is though, that Orion is quite close to Thor in strength and durability. Thus, if one is more skilled they should clearly have the advantage in this area. I think Thor wins because he's decent enough to compete in h2h with Orion, and then let his other powers carry the day.

I said Orion is a better martial artist. I didn't say his more skilled/formidable in hand to hand.

The two don't go hand in hand.

Orion might be more likely to do a flip, but place them in a ring with equal bodies and Thor has at least a 50% shot at taking it.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I said Orion is a better martial artist. I didn't say his more skilled/formidable in hand to hand.

I know, which is why I responded with what I did because he is just that. If you ARE a better MA and have close to equal strength and durability you should always be more skilled and formidable in h2h. Thor is good enough to compete but isn't good enough to be equal when one is clearly superior in MA and they are close to each other in the other relevant h2h areas.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I know, which is why I responded with what I did because he is just that. If you ARE a better MA and have close to equal strength and durability you should always be more skilled and formidable in h2h. Thor is good enough to compete but isn't good enough to be equal when one is clearly superior in MA and they are close to each other in the other relevant h2h areas.

Since when does it work that way? Fighters can have different specialties other than martial arts and be just as formidable. Orion may be more prone to martial arts type maneuvers but that doesn't in itself make him more formidable in hand to hand than Thor whose more of a boxer/wrestler that utilizes speed/agility more than regular.

Name me all the times Orion has demonstrated martial arts skills since his clearly superior.

how bout some scans

I posted all of Thor's notable hand to hand feats, at the top of this page and at the bottom of the page before this:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=522796&pagenumber=16

For reference to Orion's h2h feats.. See his fights with Mantis, Sun Dipped Supes who was wrecking the JLA & his fight with DS which was purely h2h (while fighting a fast speeds) Those are the most impressive imo.

Sundipped Superman? What? When did that happen?

Unless I'm forgetting something, his fight with Darkseid is more impressive than any fight with Mantis I've seen.

I'm pretty sure Darkseid threw the fight against Orion however. Impressive either way but it should be noted.

Mantis? I remember Valkyrie batteling Orion. She was called the greatest martial artist in the universe and held tournaments as well. Orion was in a pacifist state and nearly beat her until Highfather interrupted it.

When Valkyrie ambushed Orion in the beginning of the fight, the Forever people claimed if Orion was in his prime, Val wouldn't have gotten 5 meters of Orion or something to that.

In Simonson's Orion, Orion claimed he knew all forms of warfare from across the universe.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Sundipped Superman? What? When did that happen?

Unless I'm forgetting something, his fight with Darkseid is more impressive than any fight with Mantis I've seen.

I'm pretty sure Darkseid threw the fight against Orion however. Impressive either way but it should be noted.

Probably thinking of the Dominus arc, where Superman had a small sun dip. The JLA claimed that Orion was the only one capable of taking on Superman at the time.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Probably thinking of the Dominus arc, where Superman had a small sun dip. The JLA claimed that Orion was the only one capable of taking on Superman at the time.

Aye, that's most likely it.

Orion for Mabye one and definity 2 and 8.

I think the rest goes to thor.

Clark's just lucky that Batman was too busy and let Orion deal with him.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Mantis? I remember Valkyrie batteling Orion. She was called the greatest martial artist in the universe and held tournaments as well. Orion was in a pacifist state and nearly beat her until Highfather interrupted it.

When Valkyrie ambushed Orion in the beginning of the fight, the Forever people claimed if Orion was in his prime, Val wouldn't have gotten 5 meters of Orion or something to that.

In Simonson's Orion, Orion claimed he knew all forms of warfare from across the universe.

Maybe that's who his referring to because I've read his fight(s) with Mantis, and there isn't anything worth noting as I can tell.

Valkyrie is his former master/trainer no? That was the fight I was referring to. It was a decent enough brawl as I recall. Not anything Thor hasn't done though. IIRC, she kicked his ass after a bull rush for two pages, and then Orion was reborn, punched her three times, the end. That was a better showing of will power than skill to be honest.

IIRC, in the fight that we saw, he didn't see her coming but there was a time that Orion would have nailed her before she got some distance to him.

Forgot about that.

whag feats show thor is a better fighter?

Fighter or martial artist? I think Orion is probably a better martial artist. I think Thor is at the very least is as formidable in hand to hand.

Either way, I posted a link in the previous page. Go over his feats and come to your own decision.

That reminds me, I think I'm going to update Thor's hand to hand section. There are some scenes where he outmaneuvers Hercules.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm pretty sure Darkseid threw the fight against Orion however. Impressive either way but it should be noted.

Simonson clarified that Darkseid was 'giving it his all', and that had he been holding back 'even a little' that Orion, as the ultimate fighter and his father's son, would know and the entire ruse would immediately have been up.

So while that last bit WAS Darkseid 'throwing it' (either because he would have been able to survive the omegas or change their course or both, I don't care which interpretation you've got), up until that point it was supposedly the typical, reasonable course of any battle between them, as Simonson saw it.

Originally posted by Prep-Man

In Simonson's Orion, Orion claimed he knew all forms of warfare from across the universe.

To be clear, that doesn't necessarily mean hand to hand combat knowledge. That was just Simonson playing with, and reinforcing, that Orion is TRULY a god of war, and the breadth and depth of his knowledge (in this case indepth knowledge on the mechanism of function and history of the "Ivy Mike" nuclear bomb, one of the most powerful explosions set off in the history of the world) goes beyond the logic. Sort of a unique cosmic awareness is how I look at it, though I try not to think about it too analytically -- ruins the fun.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus




Maybe that's who his referring to because I've read his fight(s) with Mantis, and there isn't anything worth noting as I can tell.

His fights with Slig and the Deep Six, on the other hand, were quite impressive. All of them, in fact.



The Orion there was stupified, having just been ripped from the Source (and merged with Desaad, as it turned out). He was incapable of fighting for the entire first part of the battle. When he got serious it was only he that landed blows. She didn't seem to have a chance.

Originally posted by Desaad
Simonson clarified that Darkseid was 'giving it his all', and that had he been holding back 'even a little' that Orion, as the ultimate fighter and his father's son, would know and the entire ruse would immediately have been up.

So while that last bit WAS Darkseid 'throwing it' (either because he would have been able to survive the omegas or change their course or both, I don't care which interpretation you've got), up until that point it was supposedly the typical, reasonable course of any battle between them, as Simonson saw it.

I know Darkseid was giving it his all for almost all of it in hand to hand. I just wanted to point out that he threw the fight in the end.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I know Darkseid was giving it his all for almost all of it in hand to hand. I just wanted to point out that he threw the fight in the end.

Sure, but he was losing before he ultimately threw it.

The showing remains untouched, and the general trend can be extrapolated (since the point of him resorting, unfairly, to his Omega beams was that he was losing the purely physical battle).

I think that's worth clarifying.

Like I said, it was impressive, Darkseid was giving it his all, but the final victory came from him throwing the fight. So I wouldn't put it in the win column for Orion. I'm not trying to take anything away from the feat. I simply thought it was something worth mentioning.

if the fight were to go on, orion would have won. just like he did in countdown.

IIRC the whole event was set up so that DS could remove himself, and thereby be able to observe the full capabilities of the ALE.

He needed to lose, so maybe Orion would've won regardless. On the other hand if he could take himself out of the fight in such a way that Orion didn't suspect a scheme, then he certainly could've controlled circumstances to favor himself if his plans didn't involve losing.

Basically he gave it his all, but he used weapons he knew Orion would counter. In different circumstances he might be inclined to stack the deck, like usual.