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In Episode 5, Luke goes to Dagobah where he is told he is too old to be taught in the ways of the force and then it is later stated by Obi-Wan that he was their last hope. If he was their last hope why wasn't he taught about the force from an earlier age? Least then he would have been a lot better prepared and probably could done a lot better against Vader, but lets face it...he beat Vader cause he felt anger that Vader wanted to turn Leia to the dark side.

Anakin was taught from a youg age and he turned to the dark side . They thought the same thing might happen to Luke . Thats why they left it tell late

No, they said he was too old as well, in episode 2 and 3 they had much younger kids being trained

From Episode III on to Episode VI, there wasn't a safe environment to train Jedi in; the Empire was looking for them everywhere. When Yoda & Obi Wan went into hiding, they might have pinned their hopes of eventually rallying some surviving Jedi they could find. But the Empire kept the hunt going for twenty years, which is why Obi Wan can tell Luke with some definitiveness that the Jedi were all but extinct.

They likely sensed the great force potential in both Luke & Leia as infants, but then wasn't the time to deal with it. Obi Wan said he would watch over Luke from afar on Tatooine and decide what to do when the time was right. The secret resistance started by Bail Organa in Episode III knew he was there and likely kept in some contact, seeing as Leia eventually went to get him for the Death Star mission. So yes, there were taking a risk by starting Luke's training late, but fate had dealt them this hand and they risked it.

Well how come they weren't training leia as well then at the time they were training Luke? Why not train them both at the same time? I'm guessing they thought by that time the emperor knew of Luke and not leia as a potential jedi?

yeah well, it also was kinda stupid Vader could not sense his own daughter in Ep IV

Plot holes plot holes... all created after ANH and ESB.

But I'm talking about events before ESB, they said he was too old...they should have taught him from an earlier age but chose not to

Originally posted by steverules_2
But I'm talking about events before ESB, they said he was too old...they should have taught him from an earlier age but chose not to

Well if the Jedi knew everything and couldn't possibly be wrong about how they did things, they wouldn't have made mistakes that led to their downfall and have been better prepared for the rise of the Sith. That's part of what the PT showed; they had become a static, rigid organization that needed more radical thinkers like Qui-Gon Jinn, who would have been on the council if not for the perception of him as a rebel & maverick. Anakin would likely had never fallen to the dark side if he had lived to train him.

And if you read the novelization of the Revenge Of The Sith, Yoda has an inner monologue while fighting Palpatine, when he realizes the Sith had changed while the Jedi had not; that is why they wouldn't be victorious now.

So all of their pre-conceived rules about how-to-do-things-in-the-order hadn't prevented their fall from power. So they went a different route with Luke & Leia. I'm sure some of this territory will be covered in the live action series to come.

Do you think it's possible Obi Wan was sleep-teaching Luke in his subconscious, between ANH and TESB? Three years had passed, and now Luke can use the force to pull his lightsaber to him. So I think Obi Wan in his force ghost form was doing as much as possible, before he considered it time for Yoda to take over. Again, radical change from the previous years in the Jedi, because Yoda only taught the younglings before they were paired off with a master. Now it was inverted, with him finishing off an adult Luke.

I did read the ROTS, but of course the OT didn't take into consideration of the PT showing that the jedi was as you say a static, rigid organization that needed more radical thinkers.

Obi Wan could have easily shown Luke the ways of the force before ANH, it's not like Vader felt Luke's presence on Tatooine when he was hovering over them...or even on the death star. Luke probably would have beaten Vader in ESB but we can never be too sure of that. In ESB he showed some good skills and believe his sabre should've taken Vaders arm off but thats a different point entirely.

I dunno if teaching him earlier on would have made it easier for the sith to find him.

Originally posted by steverules_2
I did read the ROTS, but of course the OT didn't take into consideration of the PT showing that the jedi was as you say a static, rigid organization that needed more radical thinkers.

Obi Wan could have easily shown Luke the ways of the force before ANH, it's not like Vader felt Luke's presence on Tatooine when he was hovering over them...or even on the death star. Luke probably would have beaten Vader in ESB but we can never be too sure of that. In ESB he showed some good skills and believe his sabre should've taken Vaders arm off but thats a different point entirely.

I dunno if teaching him earlier on would have made it easier for the sith to find him.

Nice signiture

Originally posted by steverules_2
But I'm talking about events before ESB, they said he was too old...they should have taught him from an earlier age but chose not to

Maybe Yoda was just testing his resolve. If Luke would have given up and left, they sure had to go look for the other.

Yoda couldn't afford to that though considering what was at stake

Originally posted by coolmovies
Nice signiture

Thanks

Originally posted by steverules_2
Yoda couldn't afford to that though considering what was at stake



Yoda could have been feigning his disinterest, as a test. It's not like they told Luke all the details about his parentage either; why not test him?

Originally posted by roughrider
Yoda could have been feigning his disinterest, as a test. It's not like they told Luke all the details about his parentage either; why not test him?

They didn't tell him because they wanted Vader dead, plus look at ROTJ...after Luke knew he didn't want to fight Vader, so they lied to him so that Luke wouldn't hold back when facing Vader

Originally posted by steverules_2
Yoda couldn't afford to that though considering what was at stake


He could, just because of what was at stake.

Why help training someone who's about to fall to the Dark Side? Why aide the bad guys?

Luke was about to fall the dark side? I dunno about that, he managed to resist temptation from the dark side...the emperor and his dad both tried and failed...how do I know they failed? Because the emperor decided to kill him. If he'd been trained sooner maybe he would've known a lightsabre could protect him from force lightning.

Anakin was closer to the dark side than Luke ever was...but Yoda still let Obi-Wan train him sooner than Luke was trained.

When Yoda said that, that was before Vader/Emperor approached him... It was clear both sides were going for him. " The Emperor knew, as we did, that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat for him."

And as we know Anakin had offspring, twins. Luke could have easily been trained from an early age considering he was meant to be a threat to the emperor.

Yes of course... That is true.

Maybe training him would have sent tremors in the Force and alerted the Empire to new Jedi. I always thought Jedi were at least sensitie to each other. I'd had hoped to see more of Anakin while he 'helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights'. He didn't do much hunting down as far as we saw, only kill kiddies... But that's beside the point.

If it sent tremors then wouldn't Vader have sensed that Luke was in the falcon when they were coming towards the death star...or when Luke was using the force to blow up the death star. He sensed obi wan but thats cause they had known each other for so long I'm guessing, they knew of each others presence.

Originally posted by queeq
Yes of course... That is true.

Maybe training him would have sent tremors in the Force and alerted the Empire to new Jedi. I always thought Jedi were at least sensitie to each other. I'd had hoped to see more of Anakin while he 'helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights'. He didn't do much hunting down as far as we saw, only kill kiddies... But that's beside the point.

The emperor and vader felt a disturbance in the force when Luke was being trained.

Did they say they had sensed it?

They FELT it... Vader says so.

Originally posted by steverules_2
If it sent tremors then wouldn't Vader have sensed that Luke was in the falcon when they were coming towards the death star...or when Luke was using the force to blow up the death star. He sensed obi wan but thats cause they had known each other for so long I'm guessing, they knew of each others presence.

Perhaps. But Luke was still only starting out in the Force. He did one trick. OB1 presence would prolly have overshadowed Luke's by far. Perhaps when OB1 had not been there, Luke may have stood out.

I'm not sure, I mean Vader didn't sense Luke being told to use the force when Obi-Wan was talking to him, another puzzling situation since that probably took quite a bit of force training for obi wan to do.

Interesting that Vader and the emperor knew Luke was training and yet had no idea where to look. So Luke could have trained earlier, they would have felt it sure but I doubt it's like a homing beacon

Originally posted by roughrider
From Episode III on to Episode VI, there wasn't a safe environment to train Jedi in; the Empire was looking for them everywhere. When Yoda & Obi Wan went into hiding, they might have pinned their hopes of eventually rallying some surviving Jedi they could find. But the Empire kept the hunt going for twenty years, which is why Obi Wan can tell Luke with some definitiveness that the Jedi were all but extinct.

They likely sensed the great force potential in both Luke & Leia as infants, but then wasn't the time to deal with it. Obi Wan said he would watch over Luke from afar on Tatooine and decide what to do when the time was right. The secret resistance started by Bail Organa in Episode III knew he was there and likely kept in some contact, seeing as Leia eventually went to get him for the Death Star mission. So yes, there were taking a risk by starting Luke's training late, but fate had dealt them this hand and they risked it.

The entire premise of your post does not take into account that Yoda seemed to hid just fine, no problem. The Jedi genocide actually does not mean anything for the premise of this thread's topic.

Meaning, they could have trained Luke from the very beginning Infant rather than a 5-7 years old we see.

Originally posted by queeq
Plot holes plot holes... all created after ANH and ESB.

And here is the correct answer to the thread's question.

Originally posted by roughrider
Do you think it's possible Obi Wan was sleep-teaching Luke in his subconscious, between ANH and TESB? Three years had passed, and now Luke can use the force to pull his lightsaber to him. So I think Obi Wan in his force ghost form was doing as much as possible, before he considered it time for Yoda to take over. Again, radical change from the previous years in the Jedi, because Yoda only taught the younglings before they were paired off with a master. Now it was inverted, with him finishing off an adult Luke.

Sleep-teaching?

Also, Luke was a naturally gifted force users. IMO, he counts as a "genius" among the force users. I think it's more likely that he just figured out that he had TK powers.

Vader sensed his force sensitivity during the trench run.

Originally posted by queeq
Vader sensed his force sensitivity during the trench run.


"The force is strong with this one."

THat's what he said, yes.

Originally posted by queeq
They FELT it... Vader says so.



Perhaps. But Luke was still only starting out in the Force. He did one trick. OB1 presence would prolly have overshadowed Luke's by far. Perhaps when OB1 had not been there, Luke may have stood out.

I look at it this way, that the disturbance in the force is coming from Luke being trained more so than Luke or obiwan himself.

But that disturbance was felt in ESB.

We were talking about why Vader could't sense Luke, but could sense OB1 in ANH when the Falcon was captured by the DS.

Originally posted by steverules_2
Luke was about to fall the dark side? I dunno about that, he managed to resist temptation from the dark side...the emperor and his dad both tried and failed.

That's 20/20 hindsight, because we've seen Return Of The Jedi. We're talking about what Yoda and Obi Wan feared in TESB - what would happen if Luke challenged Vader & The Emperor before he was ready. He failed a test in the Dagobath cave, which foretold that he could become someone like Vader in the future, if his focus & training weren't right.

Even by the climax of ROTJ, he was teetering on the edge, being pulled by fear for Leia's future - just like Anakin was on the brink in ROTS out of concern for Padme. Anakin fell, while Luke just managed to pull back.

Originally posted by dadudemon
The entire premise of your post does not take into account that Yoda seemed to hid just fine, no problem. The Jedi genocide actually does not mean anything for the premise of this thread's topic.

Meaning, they could have trained Luke from the very beginning Infant rather than a 5-7 years old we see.



Yoda hid on a planet that wasn't listed on any charts, and likely wasn't doing anything Jed-wise to attract attention. Just like Obi Wan came to be known as a strange old hermit on Tatooine, rather than a retired Jedi master.

And if you see what I've written earlier, it's likely Yoda and Obi Wan were putting more into looking to find surviving Jedi from the purge, rather than trying to start a newly secret Jedi academy. But these are all questions I imagine will be explored in the live action series to come; the secret resistance started by Bail Organa and Mon Mothma.

Originally posted by queeq
But that disturbance was felt in ESB.

We were talking about why Vader could't sense Luke, but could sense OB1 in ANH when the Falcon was captured by the DS.

Ah well that's easy, cause Luke was just starting to use the force so he would have a very small signature unlike obi-wan who vader had been around for 20 years. I would question more, why couldn't the death star scan for life forms instead of bringing a scanning crew aboard. especially if a star destroyer can scan for life forms.

Originally posted by roughrider
That's 20/20 hindsight, because we've seen Return Of The Jedi. We're talking about what Yoda and Obi Wan feared in TESB - what would happen if Luke challenged Vader & The Emperor before he was ready. He failed a test in the Dagobath cave, which foretold that he could become someone like Vader in the future, if his focus & training weren't right.

Even by the climax of ROTJ, he was teetering on the edge, being pulled by fear for Leia's future - just like Anakin was on the brink in ROTS out of concern for Padme. Anakin fell, while Luke just managed to pull back.

You must have missed the post where I said that Luke beat Vader with anger when Vader mentioned turning Leia to the dark side. And Luke did reject the dark side in ESB, vader tried to turn him so that they could both take down the emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son. He decided to jump rather than turn to the dark side. Yeah, he nearly turned to dark side but the fact still remains that he didn't turn.

Originally posted by steverules_2
You must have missed the post where I said that Luke beat Vader with anger when Vader mentioned turning Leia to the dark side. And Luke did reject the dark side in ESB, vader tried to turn him so that they could both take down the emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son. He decided to jump rather than turn to the dark side. Yeah, he nearly turned to dark side but the fact still remains that he didn't turn.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean Yoda & Obi Wan weren't rightfully worried in TESB that it could go wrong for Luke in the crucial moment. The potential was there. You can't just say "Why were they so worried about Luke turning to the dark side? I saw Return Of The Jedi, and he didn't turn."

One major difference between Anakin & Luke, is that Anakin had killed people using the force in anger & in fear. His years of intensive Jedi training may have helped him get over the incident with the Sandpeople (plus, he was remorseful), but by the time he aided in the death of Mace Windu, he had gone too far and fallen to Palpatine's influence.
If Luke had kept going and killed Darth Vader in ROTJ rather than just sever one of his hands, he was throughly consumned by anger & fear in that moment that he could have fallen the same way. But Palpatine's goading made him pause, and he caught himself just in time.

Well, this is an old debate. I still contend most strongly that you cannot sense another person's force power and this never happened at any point in the films. Vader's comment in the trench run was just a testament to the skill of his target; it was not meant literally.

He senses Obi-Wan because he knows him. Sensing his presence is like seeing his face.

Why was Luke not taught? Broadly- it just wasn't the time.

Originally posted by roughrider
Yoda hid on a planet that wasn't listed on any charts, and likely wasn't doing anything Jed-wise to attract attention. Just like Obi Wan came to be known as a strange old hermit on Tatooine, rather than a retired Jedi master.

Wasn't there something about the planet also having some sort of "anti-force" thing going on, which prevented force-detection?

Originally posted by roughrider
And if you see what I've written earlier, it's likely Yoda and Obi Wan were putting more into looking to find surviving Jedi from the purge, rather than trying to start a newly secret Jedi academy. But these are all questions I imagine will be explored in the live action series to come; the secret resistance started by Bail Organa and Mon Mothma.

So there's going to be a live-action show, after all, eh? I haven't been keeping up, as of late..so I'm out of the loop.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, this is an old debate. I still contend most strongly that you cannot sense another person's force power and this never happened at any point in the films. Vader's comment in the trench run was just a testament to the skill of his target; it was not meant literally.

He senses Obi-Wan because he knows him. Sensing his presence is like seeing his face.


Interesting take on that. I actually cannot find fault with it as your point is further proven in the Case of Luke being able to detect and then communicate with Leia towards the end of ESB. In other words, it wouldn't have worked had he not known Leia really well. This is what I've thought since a kid about that whole telepathic communication scene.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, this is an old debate. I still contend most strongly that you cannot sense another person's force power and this never happened at any point in the films. Vader's comment in the trench run was just a testament to the skill of his target; it was not meant literally.

He senses Obi-Wan because he knows him. Sensing his presence is like seeing his face.


But he does sense the Force around Luke during the trench run. Plus in ESB both the Emperor and Vader link the tremor in the Force with Luke... So it does seem to go beyond simply sensing a presence of someone you know.

But I don't think Force users light up in the universe like little candles...

Originally posted by queeq
But he does sense the Force around Luke during the trench run. Plus in ESB both the Emperor and Vader link the tremor in the Force with Luke... So it does seem to go beyond simply sensing a presence of someone you know.

But I don't think Force users light up in the universe like little candles...

Yup, and with regard to the other post about yoda hiding on Dagobah, i think he was able to do that because of all the lifeforms on the planet that would sheild his signature.

Originally posted by roughrider
Yeah, but that doesn't mean Yoda & Obi Wan weren't rightfully worried in TESB that it could go wrong for Luke in the crucial moment. The potential was there. You can't just say "Why were they so worried about Luke turning to the dark side? I saw Return Of The Jedi, and he didn't turn."

One major difference between Anakin & Luke, is that Anakin had killed people using the force in anger & in fear. His years of intensive Jedi training may have helped him get over the incident with the Sandpeople (plus, he was remorseful), but by the time he aided in the death of Mace Windu, he had gone too far and fallen to Palpatine's influence.
If Luke had kept going and killed Darth Vader in ROTJ rather than just sever one of his hands, he was throughly consumned by anger & fear in that moment that he could have fallen the same way. But Palpatine's goading made him pause, and he caught himself just in time.

But he could have turned in ESB, he was tempted in ESB and he rejected the dark side. Not as tempted as ROTJ but still...he paused to think about it before jumping. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have been worried, they should have been and they were...I'm saying they should have trained him earlier on so that he would be more prepared and ready. He's their last hope other than Leia but then she was the same age as him. Again, they didn't train her and she was the same age and yet she would have been too old.

Originally posted by steverules_2
But he could have turned in ESB, he was tempted in ESB and he rejected the dark side. Not as tempted as ROTJ but still...he paused to think about it before jumping. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have been worried, they should have been and they were...I'm saying they should have trained him earlier on so that he would be more prepared and ready. He's their last hope other than Leia but then she was the same age as him. Again, they didn't train her and she was the same age and yet she would have been too old.

At the time of Luke & Leia's birth and their exile, Yoda & Obi Wan likely pinned their hopes on pulling together the remaining Jedi for when the time was right. I've written this before - we're arguing in circles.

Put aside Luke & Leia - why didn't they just find other young infants with force sensitivity, and train a whole new secret Jedi academy to rise up and take down the Sith & the Empire? Obviously they couldn't get away with such a thing, with the Empire on the hunt for Jedi and quelling all opposition.

Because as children of the great Anakin it was their destiny or Will of the Force. You gotta accept some of these things in a fairy tale like SW.

Originally posted by roughrider
At the time of Luke & Leia's birth and their exile, Yoda & Obi Wan likely pinned their hopes on pulling together the remaining Jedi for when the time was right. I've written this before - we're arguing in circles.

Put aside Luke & Leia - why didn't they just find other young infants with force sensitivity, and train a whole new secret Jedi academy to rise up and take down the Sith & the Empire? Obviously they couldn't get away with such a thing, with the Empire on the hunt for Jedi and quelling all opposition.

Yes but with the few jedi that there were they still should have trained them earlier so that when the time came they'd have a much better chance. The force was strong in the skywalker family.

Besides, you still had to go out and spot force sensitive children... Their freedom to go as they pleased was quite limited.

They wasted valuble time IMO, they could have easily trained them from the start. Luke could have been trained on tatooine considering Obi-Wan was there, as for Leia I don't know but she still could have been trained.

Prolly.

Originally posted by steverules_2
They wasted valuble time IMO, they could have easily trained them from the start. Luke could have been trained on tatooine considering Obi-Wan was there, as for Leia I don't know but she still could have been trained.

Well, we just agree to disagree on the reasons why. I believe their were some reasons - the current hostile environment for Jedi and such - while you think it's a plot hole. There we are.

I never said it was plot hole though....

I'm just stating the fact that in ESB Obi-Wan said Luke was there last hope and yet they trained him too late when they could have trained him earlier.

They didn't train him too late. He defeated Vader, didn't he?

Originally posted by queeq
But he does sense the Force around Luke during the trench run. Plus in ESB both the Emperor and Vader link the tremor in the Force with Luke... So it does seem to go beyond simply sensing a presence of someone you know.

But I don't think Force users light up in the universe like little candles...

No, he does NOT sense any Force around Luke in the trench run; that's the point. A total misreading of the line; he is no more saying that than Dodonna is telling everyone to use Jedi powers when he says 'May the Force be with you." Vader is just saying his target is skilled/lucky.

Never, at any point, does anyone sense force power from another.

The Emperor is sensing the potential future of Luke being a a Jedi. That they can do, though not until it was set in motion.

It;s just a style and timing thing. Why didn't he train Luke? The time was not right. That's the beat answer you can ever get to something like this.

Originally posted by queeq
They didn't train him too late. He defeated Vader, didn't he?

Luke got beat in ESB though didn't he...he survived by doing a suicide dive, Vader could have easily killed him, he had his sabre to lukes face but didn't do anything and that was before ROTJ and before he defeated Vader. Yoda still said 'He is too old, I can not train him' or something a long those lines.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, he does NOT sense any Force around Luke in the trench run; that's the point. A total misreading of the line; he is no more saying that than Dodonna is telling everyone to use Jedi powers when he says 'May the Force be with you." Vader is just saying his target is skilled/lucky.

Never, at any point, does anyone sense force power from another.

The Emperor is sensing the potential future of Luke being a a Jedi. That they can do, though not until it was set in motion.

It;s just a style and timing thing. Why didn't he train Luke? The time was not right. That's the beat answer you can ever get to something like this.

YES he DOES sense the force around Luke in the trench run. Luke was using the force instead of the targeting computer. hence the line "the force is strong with this one"

and then in ESB with the changed lines the emperor says "the young rebel who destroyed the death star" So they have made a connection there.

Yeah that trench run lien surely makes Luke stand out from the others in Vader's POV... and clearly it has something to do with the Force. But do explain how you see it then.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
YES he DOES sense the force around Luke in the trench run. Luke was using the force instead of the targeting computer. hence the line "the force is strong with this one"

and then in ESB with the changed lines the emperor says "the young rebel who destroyed the death star" So they have made a connection there.

hmmmm


Well, I don't remember the events perfectly, but didn't Luke use the force AFTER Vader said "The force is strong with this one."?

OB1 is talking to him when he says that. But what does it matter for the argument?

Maybe cause he shoulda been able to sense it was his son? I dunno....

He doesn't know it's his son.

Well I know that...saying maybe he could have sensed it was son, obviously he didn't

No. And why would he?

Originally posted by queeq
OB1 is talking to him when he says that. But what does it matter for the argument?

That's very important, actually, for the point of Vader sensing the force. If OB1 was talking to Luke at the time, then, yes, Vader would sense the "force" with Luke.

Ah yes, but that would suggest one can feel the force around a person.

Originally posted by queeq
No. And why would he?

Because Lukes his son, he could sense when Luke was on the shuttle in ROTJ...Luke said he was endangering the mission cause he knew Vader could sense him thus he should have been able to sense Luke in ROTJ plus the fact he knew the fact he said 'The force is strong with this one' would indicate he could sense Luke in ANH.

In ROTJ he already KNEW his son, he knew by then about his existence and he met and fought him. He knew how to recognise him... in the Force so to speak. He knows what presence to sense.

So that he doesn't sense Luka as his son in ANH makes a lot of sense. The real question is if a Jedi can sense the Force in or around a person... or did he sense OB1's spirit presence? Which raises the question why he doesn't sense OB1 and not just the Force that is strong?

I'm guessing what Luke did took a lot of his force strength at the time, who's to say you can sense a force ghost. I'm guessing Vader didn't know it could be done since he was puzzled that Obi-Wan dissapeared when he struck him down.

Well, it's not all that clear, is it?

Is that a rhetorical question?

Originally posted by queeq
Well, it's not all that clear, is it?

It's a question still unanswered, between the time frame of ANH and TESB - how Vader came to learn of Luke's existence, and was with the rebellion. Because he had been operating for decades believing that he had no children surviving from Padme.
Did he piece it together from the intelligence gathered from the stormtroopers on Tattooine? That they had tracked the droids to the Lars farm (alarm bells), they had wiped out the farmer and his wife in the interrogation, but they had a nephew that was missing from the scene (alarm bells!) who apparently was known as Luke Skywalker, not Luke Lars (ALARM BELLS!) - and since the droids got safely to the rebel base, he must have gone with them and perhaps he was the force sensitive being he had sensed in the Death Star trench (how much of that was Luke, and how much was it the spirit of Obi Wan bonded to his subconscious?)

Nah, they prolly found out about Luke after ANH. I'm pretty sure we can say Luke's fame grew after blowing up the Death Star. Blowing it up also revealed his identity to the Empire in time. Why OB1 and the Larses let him keep the name of Skywalker is beyond me...

They didn't like his whining so....

They hoped the Empire would come and kill him? hehehe

Pretty much what I was leading towards, they just wanted to get rid of him...thats why they didn't try very hard when he went to take on Vader and why Obi-Wan couldn't be there. All they to do was...Luke would get on all 4's obi wan would appear and vader would be startled and move back and fall over luke and be defeated. But it wasn't to be.

They could have shot him themselves...

I'm sorry...are you suggesting that the Jedi SHOOT Luke? Yoda and Obi-Wan....SHOOT...Luke?

Originally posted by queeq
Nah, they prolly found out about Luke after ANH. I'm pretty sure we can say Luke's fame grew after blowing up the Death Star. Blowing it up also revealed his identity to the Empire in time. Why OB1 and the Larses let him keep the name of Skywalker is beyond me...

Luke: "Why is my last name Skywalker? I could have been Luke Lars, or Double-L to my friends! Although Fixer thought LL could have..."

Owen: "Stop whining to me about it, and you can start picking up the power converters at Toshi Station! Deal?"

Luke: "All right!"

See, it would have ruined SW.

Skywalker is a better name than Lars

Originally posted by queeq
Ah yes, but that would suggest one can feel the force around a person.

And that makes sense because they can "sense" a concentration of the force in an area such as when Luke felt the "dark side" in that cave.

Originally posted by queeq
Which raises the question why he doesn't sense OB1 and not just the Force that is strong?

Well, we could explaing that Vader did not recognize OB1 being with "Luke" in the trench run because becoming a force ghost changes the "flavor" of the force around that person, making them unrecognizable to someone that knew them in the past if they were just "sensing" without seeing, such as Vader's case.



However, we know for a fact that Luke was strong with the force, so Vader most likely was just referring to Luke, in general, and not just OB1's force presence with Luke.

Originally posted by queeq
They hoped the Empire would come and kill him? hehehe

Originally posted by queeq
In ROTJ he already KNEW his son, he knew by then about his existence and he met and fought him. He knew how to recognise him... in the Force so to speak. He knows what presence to sense.

So that he doesn't sense Luka as his son in ANH makes a lot of sense. The real question is if a Jedi can sense the Force in or around a person... or did he sense OB1's spirit presence? Which raises the question why he doesn't sense OB1 and not just the Force that is strong?

Perhaps if Luke'd have known, himself Vader would sense Luke's knowing like how he read Luke's mind in ROTJ....

Vader is never shown on screen realising the connection.

Maybe the Anakin part of him DID know..
'Cause at that point, it looked like it was pure Vader doing the driving, perhaps the Vader part of him overlooked it 'til after the battle.
All of that "The son of Skywalker" stuff from Palps seemed to point to the duality of Anakin/Vader thing...

At the battle of Yavin, I think Vader was too obsessed with the stakes of the battle to reflect and meditate on such things....he was so engrossed and complacent, that he even let a Millenium Falcon sneak up his arse at that decidedly crucial moment...!!

The fact that Palps was aware 3 years later in ESB backs up the "Luke got more powerful/more detectable" answer....just as it does the theory (if we accept that Vader's offer to Luke in ESB was darkside seduction hokem) that Palps was aware being able to read Anakin and therefore detected the Skywalker lineage from thoughts-reading Vader...

That would explain why he couldn't sense Vader plotting to Join with Luke to overthrow him: If Vader never intended to at that stage.

'Cause it seemed Vader was down with that "Its too late for me, Son...Im gonna sell out your ass out to my boy Palps." right til the last minute.

I'd have loved to hear JEJ say that.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
YES he DOES sense the force around Luke in the trench run. Luke was using the force instead of the targeting computer. hence the line "the force is strong with this one"

and then in ESB with the changed lines the emperor says "the young rebel who destroyed the death star" So they have made a connection there.

No he does not. Your interpretation is simply incorrect. Vader is simply commenting on the difficulty of actually hitting the target, because the target is good at evading him.

The idea that Vader thinks his target is actually a force user is absurd- he'd have reacted FAR more strongly. The idea is evidently silly.

All of this complication is based on this erroneous assumption. Stop being so literal about the use of the term 'Force'. You just need a bit of perspective on the context.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No he does not. Your interpretation is simply incorrect. Vader is simply commenting on the difficulty of actually hitting the target, because the target is good at evading him.

The idea that Vader thinks his target is actually a force user is absurd- he'd have reacted FAR more strongly. The idea is evidently silly.

All of this complication is based on this erroneous assumption. Stop being so literal about the use of the term 'Force'. You just need a bit of perspective on the context.

Obi Wan told Luke to use the force and then Vader remarked that the force was strong with Luke, so, yes, it's fairly definitive: the force was strong with Luke.

As far as Luke being a force user? ...very hard to say at that point. Luke HAD used the force prior to that scene, so, yes, Luke was technically a "force" user. I don't think Vader was commenting on that, though, because Vader knows that there are no actual force users (the viewer knows otherwise, of course)...I think he was commenting on Luke being a strong force sensitive similar to how 8-year Anakin was for the Pod-races. Any further conclusion would be baseless speculation, imo.


So I agree with Darthmaul1 when he said: "Luke was using the force instead of the targeting computer." But since Luke wasn't using the force, just yet, I don't agree with this: "hence the line 'the force is strong with this one' because that line occurs before Luke starts using the force instead of his targeting computer.


bXIqfHI0hQY

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No he does not. Your interpretation is simply incorrect. Vader is simply commenting on the difficulty of actually hitting the target, because the target is good at evading him.

The idea that Vader thinks his target is actually a force user is absurd- he'd have reacted FAR more strongly. The idea is evidently silly.

All of this complication is based on this erroneous assumption. Stop being so literal about the use of the term 'Force'. You just need a bit of perspective on the context.

What does it mean then, in your opinion?

Originally posted by queeq
What does it mean then, in your opinion?


I don't want to speak for Ushgarak, but he did say this, earlier, of the trench run which should directly answer your question:

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, he does NOT sense any Force around Luke in the trench run; that's the point. A total misreading of the line; he is no more saying that than Dodonna is telling everyone to use Jedi powers when he says 'May the Force be with you." Vader is just saying his target is skilled/lucky.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No he does not. Your interpretation is simply incorrect. Vader is simply commenting on the difficulty of actually hitting the target, because the target is good at evading him.

The idea that Vader thinks his target is actually a force user is absurd- he'd have reacted FAR more strongly. The idea is evidently silly.

All of this complication is based on this erroneous assumption. Stop being so literal about the use of the term 'Force'. You just need a bit of perspective on the context.

I disagree. Vader doesn't merely say "the force is with this one" he says "the force is strong with this one". Now every other time someone says this in the movies they are saying that said person has a strong conection to the force, they never are saying that said person is lucky.

However, I will agree that does not mean Vader though Luke was a force user, simply that he has a strong connection to the force.

Vader in ANH has been shown as an adamant believer in the Force (I find your lack of faith disturbing) so he doesn't strike me as someone who would use that casualy like Dodonna does.

Originally posted by steverules_2
In Episode 5, Luke goes to Dagobah where he is told he is too old to be taught in the ways of the force and then it is later stated by Obi-Wan that he was their last hope. If he was their last hope why wasn't he taught about the force from an earlier age? Least then he would have been a lot better prepared and probably could done a lot better against Vader, but lets face it...he beat Vader cause he felt anger that Vader wanted to turn Leia to the dark side.

Luke wasn't trained from an earlier age because Yoda realised that the method of training Jedi from an early age and not letting them grow close to others (essentially brainwashing them) was wrong. He realised that letting Luke live a regular life and learn to deal with his emotions and feelings was a lot better than trying to suppress them. That was what the Jedi in his day did and look where that got them.

He knew that when Luke was ready the Force would lead him to his teachers. That was the point. The Jedi needed to go back to following the Force, not following rules and regulations.

BTW: I'm sorry if I sound high-handed, but could you please get rid of that image? It's very disrespectful to women.

What picture? The one of the donuts?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Luke wasn't trained from an earlier age because Yoda realised that the method of training Jedi from an early age and not letting them grow close to others (essentially brainwashing them) was wrong. He realised that letting Luke live a regular life and learn to deal with his emotions and feelings was a lot better than trying to suppress them. That was what the Jedi in his day did and look where that got them.

That's easy to get around: train Luke from an Early age WHILE letting him have attachments. Problem solved, right?


Originally posted by chilled monkey
BTW: I'm sorry if I sound high-handed, but could you please get rid of that image? It's very disrespectful to women.

Originally posted by queeq
What picture? The one of the donuts?




The reason this is funny to me: I think queeq thought it was because you thought my pictures were showing sexism because a "woman" had to make them or something...making queeq's comment funny because it requires a sexist interpretation in order to come to that conclusion.


Anyway, Queeq, he's referring to Steve's bouncing bewbeez avatar. lulz

Ah... well, the bouncing bewbees are of such excellent quality, they are by now considered a cultural heritage of these boards. Just enjoy them, we sure do.

VADER: HE is here.

TARKIN: Obi-Wan Kenobi? What makes you think so?

VADER: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it, was in the presence of my old Master.



People give off particular VIBES in the Force. Kinda like, fingerprints. Vader can feel when Obi-Wan is near. Vader probably sensed Luke, too - but Obi-Wan's vibes would've been enough for him to put the station on high alert.

During the Death Star trench, Vader sensed that the Force was strong in whoever it was he was chasing. That wasn't a 'By the Balls of the Force - he's good!" moment. He was LITERALLY commenting, "The Force is strong in this one."

If you're soley going by the movies - how else do you explain Palpatine's exchange with Vader in ESB?

Palpatine alerts Vader of a disturbance in the Force, but Vader says he already felt it.

Palpatine says the disturbance is the guy who blew up the Death Star, who happens to be Vader's son. Vader plays dumb, but Palpatine insists he knows Vader already knows all of this.

Vader then dismisses Luke as worthless since Obi-Wan is dead. But Palpatine KNOWS Vader wants Luke for himself. (even the OPENING CRAWL says Vader is obsessed with finding Luke)

It's when Palpatine says Luke must die because the Force is strong in him, that Vader offers Luke to his Master. The only way to postpone his death.



VADER: What is thy bidding, my Master?

PALPATINE: There is a great disturbance in the Force.

VADER: I have felt it.

PALPATINE: We have a new enemy...the young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.

VADER: How is that possible?

PALPATINE: Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us.

VADER: He's just a boy. Obi-Wan can no longer help him.

PALPATINE: The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi.

VADER: If he could be turned, he will become a powerful ally.

PALPATINE: Yes, he will be a great assett. Can it be done?

VADER: He will join us or die, Master

Because SW is a badly written fairy tale.

Luke wasn't taught at an early age because of Uncle Owen. In the very first Star Wars movie, Obi-Wan explains how Uncle Owen wouldn't allow him to give Luke his father's lightsaber.

In ROTS - it was decided to keep the children hidden from Vader and the Emperor. Bail volunteered to take and keep Leia safe. Yoda told Obi-Wan to take Luke back to his family. Obi-Wan volunteered to watch over Luke.

Apparently, in between Ep3 and Ep4 - there was a rift between Owen and Obi-Wan. Following the movies - one can assume it had to do with what Anakin did and became. It's pretty damn obvious Owen didn't want Luke to turn out like Anakin...and if he had anything to say about it, Luke would spend the rest of his life fixing moister vaporators.

NOW, why didn't Yoda and Obi-Wan just train Luke and Leia on Dagobah from infancy? Well, it's not "because SW is a badly written fairy tale". It's because Star Wars IS a fairy tale. And anybody who really "knows" Star Wars knows the author did a CRAP-LOAD of research when he wrote Episode IV. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

Apparently, the idea of 2 Jedi twins trained since birth who were then unleashed to go kill the Emperor wasn't appealing to the author. He preferred his Trilogy to be about 2 orphaned twins who were seperated at birth, unaware of their destiny. THAT'S the REAL reason why Luke and Leia weren't trained at birth. It'd be a different movie!

Because Vader would sense it. Right?

I'm not sure if he would..I'm sure Obi-Wan used the force whilst on tatooine and vader never found him and they never found Yoda and I'm sure he used the force whilst on dagobah. So Luke being taught...I'm not sure Vader would sense it although there would be a disturbance...dunno if that would lead him to Luke.

Pretty sure Yoda chose Dagobah because it was chocked full of so many life forms.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Pretty sure Yoda chose Dagobah because it was chocked full of so many life forms.

That and there was "natural" force "eddies" on the planet.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That and there was "natural" force "eddies" on the planet. And a wide variety of life forms too.

Like trees.

I like trees...they make oxygen

They drop their leaves and don't clean them up.

Those bastards!

Quite

Originally posted by JediRobin23
yeah well, it also was kinda stupid Vader could not sense his own daughter in Ep IV

This detail certainly sticks out like a sore thumb. But, even if Vader did sense Leia's natural connection to the Force, what exactly should his reaction be? If every living being is made up of the Force, then every being right down to even the clumsiest Stormtrooper would be putting out vibes through the Force, some likely putting out a stronger vibe than others. So, while Leia would no doubt be putting out stronger vibes than most, I don't see why Vader should take particular interest in her based simply because of that. It doesn't seem that simply being Force sensitive is enough to catch the attention of Vader or Sidious, especially since the Jedi have dwindled to almost nothing. Certainly, they took interest of Obi-Wan and Luke, but only because they were utilizing the Force and sending out powerful tremors. In Leia's case, though she is an intense Force sensitive, there's no actual application or utilization of the Force going on, so there's no real reason why Vader should have to entertain her Force sensitivity, if he could have sensed it at all.

If she had Force stuff pouring out from her at all, even.

No evidence of her being particulary..."Force" adept.

True, but she's the daughter of the mother f****** chosen one. But, then again, that is probably the best explanation.

It is THE explanation.

Faaaaaaaulty.

What is?

The explanation.

Originally posted by queeq
It is THE explanation.

Fine. That doesn't mean it still can't be speculated on. I'm not disputing it, but she is Vader's daughter after all.

Originally posted by General G
No evidence of her being particulary..."Force" adept.

"No. There is another."

So...? Did SHE exhibit any Force potential herself? No.

Nope... And sensing does require a certain acquaintance with someone.

You'd think so, at least.

It's a viable theory. We have no evidence of people sensing other people without prior acquaintance with them.

This is very true, I never really thought of it like that. OB1 needed Anakin's blood in order to determine just how powerful he was with the Force.

However, Vader could sense Luke while in the X-Wing in ANH, but that's his son, is that different?

Ask Ush... he's has some very set ideas about that. He doesn't believe it's the Force he sense, that Vader uses it as a metaphor. I don't buy that really...

Maybe tremors in the Force can be felt... maybe it was the ghost of OB1 Vader sensed... who knows.

Ush never comes around here, anymore. How does Vader use it as a metaphor...?

Tremors would make sense, they've been used throughout Star Wars (purging of the Jedi, Alderaan destroyed, etc. were all felt by Jedi around the galaxy).

Who knows? George knows.

We think

We hope...He might be making it all up as he goes.

Originally posted by steverules_2
In Episode 5, Luke goes to Dagobah where he is told he is too old to be taught in the ways of the force and then it is later stated by Obi-Wan that he was their last hope. If he was their last hope why wasn't he taught about the force from an earlier age? Least then he would have been a lot better prepared and probably could done a lot better against Vader, but lets face it...he beat Vader cause he felt anger that Vader wanted to turn Leia to the dark side.

The answer is in Episode 3. They say they're going to hide the children from the Sith until the time is right.

Right time was waiting for good circumstances like there being a Rebellion, and Luke being an adult so he can join the rebellion while training.

Remember in ESB The Emporer and Vader both have sensed this strong disturbance in the Force from Luke's training. He just would not have survived long if that was sensed when he was a kid, and when there was no proper/organised resistance to the Empire.

Personally I don't think at the time ANH was made Lucas planned Jedi to be trained from an infant's age.

Originally posted by steverules_2
No, they said he was too old as well, in episode 2 and 3 they had much younger kids being trained No offense intended but I find your profile picture distarbing.

Really? We all LOVE it.

Whats a distarbing?

Every one loves it, although a member who was banned a while a go reported me for having it...ironically it was in a thread where a sock was posting un-censored porn

Originally posted by steverules_2
Whats a distarbing?

Every one loves it, although a member who was banned a while a go reported me for having it...ironically it was in a thread where a sock was posting un-censored porn

It's just really skantely clad, & on the post, I just can't avoidv looking @ it.

It wouldn't be there if she wasn't skantely clad

Originally posted by C-3POTheClever
It's just really skantely clad, & on the post, I just can't avoidv looking @ it.

That's why we all love it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The answer is in Episode 3. They say they're going to hide the children from the Sith until the time is right.

Right time was waiting for good circumstances like there being a Rebellion, and Luke being an adult so he can join the rebellion while training.

Remember in ESB The Emporer and Vader both have sensed this strong disturbance in the Force from Luke's training. He just would not have survived long if that was sensed when he was a kid, and when there was no proper/organised resistance to the Empire.

I like this. Once the rebellion was started, the Empire would sense Luke somewhere mixed in with the Rebels. That was how Vader knew the probe on Hoth was at the Rebel base, he detected Luke. That is bad in some ways (endangering the mission..) but in some ways it helped Luke train because he was usually defended by a Rebel military force around him. The Empire would need to attack an entire Rebel base if it wanted to get to him.