Dream(Morpheus) vs Legion(David Haller)

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King Castle
1) dreamworld/astral plane (Haller Sleeping)

2) real world

Omega Vision
1. Dream. Just remember what happened to Azazel when he tried taking on Dream in the Dreaming.

2. Idk. Probably Dream.

MrMind
Dream of the Endless?
well he stomps

Sirius77
Dream of the endless stomps him without trying in both scenarios. More than likely with a gesture.

AlmightyKfish
Dream stomps.

TheTyrant
If Legion actually restarted the universe and banished all the Elder Gods, then he wins.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by TheTyrant
If Legion actually restarted the universe and banished all the Elder Gods, then he wins.
What's he going to do to Dream in Dream's realm?

King Castle
Originally posted by Omega Vision
What's he going to do to Dream in Dream's realm? who knows.. i was curious due to his high TP power which allows him to move through the astral plane to reality.

TheTyrant
Dream wins in his own realm, but loses on neutral ground.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by King Castle
who knows.. i was curious due to his high TP power which allows him to move through the astral plane to reality.
I don't think TP really matters to the likes of the Endless. Especially not in their home realms. When Dream invaded Delirium's home it was stated that she could have made him insane and there'd be nothing he could do about it. When Azazel attacked him in his castle he owned Azazel while making Azazel think he was winning.

He said something like "Anywhere else you might have had a chance. But here? In my home?" And then he asked all the other guests (which included Odin, Anubis, a Lord of Order, and a Lord of Chaos) if they had a problem with his decision, everyone was silent.

The Endless in their home realms are basically Omnipotent.

King Castle
but remember in scenario one i explicitly gave them a merge realm of dreams and the astral plane.. cool

Omega Vision
Originally posted by King Castle
but remember in scenario one i explicitly gave them a merge realm of dreams and the astral plane.. cool
Dave is still dreaming, which puts him in Morpheus's dominion. stick out tongue

kevdude
That shouldn't really shouldn't matter, he is known as the Lord of the awaking world as well, though his main occupation is Dreams.

Dream stomps.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by kevdude
That shouldn't really shouldn't matter, he is known as the Lord of the awaking world as well, though his main occupation is Dreams.

Dream stomps.
I'm reading the series now, I liked how Destruction implies that Dream can also control/represent reality.

"Id"
Legion can warp reality.
Legion telepathy allows him to warp astral plane as well.

Legion should have the power to take on Morpheus, but his biggest Achilles' heel, is his state of mind, and lack of skill.

Even in the astral realm, or his own mental scape. As Magik revealed, Emma Frost would kill Legion in some future, by killing off each personality in his own mental scape.

kevdude
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm reading the series now, I liked how Destruction implies that Dream can also control/represent reality.

Yeah likewise, Destruction leaving and taking up creating things even if he's not very good at it. It was a interesting meeting between Dream and Destruction. cool

Omega Vision
Originally posted by kevdude
Yeah likewise, Destruction leaving and taking up creating things even if he's not very good at it. It was a interesting meeting between Dream and Destruction. cool
Barnabus is win. Especially how he's made Delirium's caretaker.

TricksterPriest
Why is a mutant taking on an abstract?

MrMind
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Why is a mutant taking on an abstract?
lol, and some people actually think legion has a chance.

Sirius77
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Dream wins in his own realm, but loses on neutral ground.

No. When Myx couldn't stop ultimator from eating the 5th dimension, he called Dream, and Dream stopped him with a gesture. The endless are a different level of abstract. They're really in a class of their own. Dream stomps legion anywhere at any time.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Sirius77
No. When Myx couldn't stop ultimator from eating the 5th dimension, he called Dream, and Dream stopped him with a gesture. The endless are a different level of abstract. Dream stomps legion anywhere at any time.
Not sure if that was actually Dream, think it was a kind of construct Mxy created. And it didn't stop Ultimator with a gesture, it bored her to sleep with a longwinded, boring story.

Uriel005
Originally posted by MrMind
lol, and some people actually think legion has a chance. Agreed. By definition Dream actually has the most influence on mortals through every day life. IIRC Abstracts like Dream not only represent their aspect but their opposite as well as it defines them and therefore falls into their spheres of influence. So while Dream controls the dream world his dream can also be reality. Honestly I'd put dream head and shoulders above any endless in a fight except maybe destiny as he'd probably look into the cosmic log to see if/when he could beat dream.

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by Uriel005
Agreed. By definition Dream actually has the most influence on mortals through every day life. IIRC Abstracts like Dream not only represent their aspect but their opposite as well as it defines them and therefore falls into their spheres of influence. So while Dream controls the dream world his dream can also be reality. Honestly I'd put dream head and shoulders above any endless in a fight except maybe destiny as he'd probably look into the cosmic log to see if/when he could beat dream.

Depends on the Endless I think, Death is also present for every birth but at the same time something like Desire doesn't really have an exact opposite to influence, something that can be seen how it had no control over Joshua Norton as he was content.

Also I'm pretty sure it was said a number of times that Death and Destiny were > Dream, but he was > than the other 3.

MrMind
1. the endless are multiversal
2. every endless are representation of the basic fact in the universe.
every person who die will lose to death
every person who dream will lose to dream
unless you are hierarchy above them like lucifer, you can't beat them.

King Castle
can we pls use on panel feats and not inferred power.
a lot of what is being said about them is actually substantiated with actual evidence.

i dont mind or care if Legion loses but i want it rooted with actual evidence and not unsubstantiated personal opinion of what the character should be.

aside from that i am more or less willing to give it to Dream in the the dream/astral battle.

but in actual reality i want to see actual power level and feats.

i have only read a few sandman vertigo comics years ago so i am depending on you guys to educate me with facts and not out of context personal bias of the character

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by King Castle
can we pls use on panel feats and not inferred power.
a lot of what is being said about them is actually substantiated with actual evidence.

i dont mind or care if Legion loses but i want it rooted with actual evidence and not unsubstantiated personal opinion of what the character should be.

aside from that i am more or less willing to give it to Dream in the the dream/astral battle.

but in actual reality i want to see actual power level and feats.

i have only read a few sandman vertigo comics years ago so i am depending on you guys to educate me with facts and not out of context personal bias of the character

Tbf if you're looking for combat feats and such the Endless don't have many because of the nature of Sandman.

But I mean, within his own realm Dream was able to warp reality and trap Azazel, one of most powerful demons of hell in a bottle with no effort, whilst at the same time he was inside Azazel's form, where Azazel was his most powerful.

Also if Daniel's feats are allowed (exact same power source and entity effectively) Dream was able to put Supes, Kyle and Wonder Woman to sleep with a gesture, and later took Starro into the Dreaming and trapped him with apparently no exertion.

Galan007
Originally posted by Sirius77
No. When Myx couldn't stop ultimator from eating the 5th dimension, he called Dream, and Dream stopped him with a gesture. The endless are a different level of abstract. They're really in a class of their own. Dream stomps legion anywhere at any time. That version of Dream, along with the comic book he resided in, were Mxy's creations.

=/= the real Dream.

Sirius77
Oh, seriously? I thought that was just the 5th dimensional perception of dream. I guess that probably makes more sense though. Hmm, so would that mean that myx is over dream?

Galan007
Originally posted by Sirius77
Oh, seriously? I thought that was just the 5th dimensional perception of dream. I guess that probably makes more sense though.

Hmm, so would that mean that myx is over dream? If you recall, Mxy tricked Ultimator into hopping through several of his personal comics. Finally, when they hopped into Mxy's aptly named "Zzzandman" comic book, Ultimator was literally bored to an eternal sleep by the manifestation of Dream found in said comic (dubbed "Mopius".)

As for the second part of your question: Mxy would absolutely have control over Dream -- but the instance I mentioned above isn't why I am of that opinion (remember, Mxy's version of Dream =/= to the real Dream.) The reason I think/know such is because Mxy is pretty much the highest-end reality warper out there. He could make the concept Dream embodies non-existent with a snap.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Galan007
If you recall, Mxy tricked Ultimator into hopping through several of his personal comics. Finally, when they hopped into Mxy's aptly named "Zzzandman" comic book, Ultimator was literally bored to an eternal sleep by the manifestation of Dream found in said comic (dubbed "Mopius".)

As for the second part of your question: Mxy would absolutely have control over Dream -- but the instance I mentioned above isn't why I am of that opinion (remember, Mxy's version of Dream =/= to the real Dream.) The reason I think/know such is because Mxy is pretty much the highest-end reality warper out there. He could make the concept Dream embodies non-existent with a snap.
When Dream visited Hell the first time was Lucifer bluffed into standing down or was it more like he expected his minions to take down Dream and when they didn't he just sort of pouted?

Galan007
I took it as Morphius verbally owning Lucifer, and being too embarrassed (for lack of a better word) to do anything about it.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Galan007
I took it as Morphius verbally owning Lucifer, and being too embarrassed (for lack of a better word) to do anything about it.
Ah, that makes sense.

I think its also possible that Lucifer realized that Dream was having a Crowning Moment of Awesome and was afraid to intervene. stick out tongue

Sirius77
Lol this makes me want to re-read both series. Too bad they ended.

"Id"
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Why is a mutant taking on an abstract?

Because he has the power to take him on.

Prep-Man
Dream.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by "Id"
Because he has the power to take him on.
In his dreams. vin

TheTyrant
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Why is a mutant taking on an abstract?

Because this mutant supposedly destroyed and recreated Eternity, Mistress Death, Infinity, Galactus, Lord Chaos, Mistress Love, etc.

Originally posted by Sirius77
No. When Myx couldn't stop ultimator from eating the 5th dimension, he called Dream, and Dream stopped him with a gesture. The endless are a different level of abstract. They're really in a class of their own. Dream stomps legion anywhere at any time.

All 'Dream' did was tell a boring story that sent the already tired Ultimator to sleep. There was no gesturing or stomping anywhere. And the Dream that appeared in that story wasn't really Morpheus, he was just a comic book character.

http://img141.imageshack.us/i/lier1.jpg/
http://img146.imageshack.us/i/lier2.jpg/

I also don't believe that the Endless are more powerful than Marvel's abstracts, but that's neither here nor there.

King Castle
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Tbf if you're looking for combat feats and such the Endless don't have many because of the nature of Sandman.

But I mean, within his own realm Dream was able to warp reality and trap Azazel, one of most powerful demons of hell in a bottle with no effort, whilst at the same time he was inside Azazel's form, where Azazel was his most powerful.

Also if Daniel's feats are allowed (exact same power source and entity effectively) Dream was able to put Supes, Kyle and Wonder Woman to sleep with a gesture, and later took Starro into the Dreaming and trapped him with apparently no exertion. what feats does Azazel have on panel and not just inferred power or using Lucifer and transferring his feats to Azazel?

Omega Vision
Originally posted by King Castle
what feats does Azazel have on panel and not just inferred power or using Lucifer and transferring his feats to Azazel?
Sandman was never about 'feats'.

I think the benchmark we'd use though for determining demonic power would be Etrigan. Azazel was definitely above the likes of Etrigan for what that's worth.

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Sandman was never about 'feats'.

thumb up

SuperMan103
Originally posted by TheTyrant
Because this mutant supposedly destroyed and recreated Eternity, Mistress Death, Infinity, Galactus, Lord Chaos, Mistress Love, etc.



All 'Dream' did was tell a boring story that sent the already tired Ultimator to sleep. There was no gesturing or stomping anywhere. And the Dream that appeared in that story wasn't really Morpheus, he was just a comic book character.

http://img141.imageshack.us/i/lier1.jpg/
http://img146.imageshack.us/i/lier2.jpg/

I also don't believe that the Endless are more powerful than Marvel's abstracts, but that's neither here nor there.

from what comic are those scans from? and why did you name them as "lier 1" and "lier 2"?

King Castle
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Sandman was never about 'feats'.

I think the benchmark we'd use though for determining demonic power would be Etrigan. Azazel was definitely above the likes of Etrigan for what that's worth.

that is what i am getting at i read a few of the stories but the extrapolation of power is simply going by titles of characters and assuming a specific powerset that isnt shown for them.


well, gasp, he pawned a demon and word pawned in the dream realm.. he is uber!! i mean what has Azazel actually done himself to make him above others other than his job title?

that doesnt fly for other characters who have similar feats and titles so why should it fly for Dream.
pr1983

Omega Vision
Originally posted by King Castle
that is what i am getting at i read a few of the stories but the extrapolation of power is simply going by titles of characters and assuming a specific powerset that isnt shown for them.


well, gasp, he pawned a demon and word pawned in the dream realm.. he is uber!! i mean what has Azazel actually done himself to make him above others other than his job title?

that doesnt fly for other characters who have similar feats and titles so why should it fly for Dream.
pr1983
I've never seen the point in making threads featuring the Endless because they get cheapened by trying to crystallize them to the sum of their feats.

But there was an implication in one story that Dream and the dreams he represented were so powerful that merely a hundred people dreaming the same dream was enough to utterly warp reality to conform to that shared dream. The warping was so complete that in effect the previous reality had never existed and only Dream himself remembered the way things were.

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by King Castle
that is what i am getting at i read a few of the stories but the extrapolation of power is simply going by titles of characters and assuming a specific powerset that isnt shown for them.


well, gasp, he pawned a demon and word pawned in the dream realm.. he is uber!! i mean what has Azazel actually done himself to make him above others other than his job title?

that doesnt fly for other characters who have similar feats and titles so why should it fly for Dream.
pr1983

As Omega said, using The Endless in threads is kinda pointless due to their nature being vastly greater than the sum of their feats.

But I mean, if you're going for a straight feat, Dream was able to pull Starro's number of continent sized bodies into the Dreaming and shrink and imprison him with no effort, and Starro could do absolutely nothing about it.

Within the Dreaming Dream is essentially omnipotent, as the entire realm is him. There's no way to trick him within the Dreaming, and he was shown a number of times to be able to effortlessly warp reality within the Dreaming.

King Castle
i read the story and i am positive that their are some massive context being left out of the starro imprisonment that had to do with disrupting the bonding and forcing starro into the dream realm.. irrc..

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by King Castle
i read the story and i am positive that their are some massive context being left out of the starro imprisonment that had to do with disrupting the bonding and forcing starro into the dream realm.. irrc..

The JLA tricked Starro into leaving the Earth by making it think the Earth was toxic, but it was still fully functional and existing in the real universe.

Then Dream imprisoned Starro in the Dreaming, and Starro could do nothing about it, with the narration stating "There's always a bigger fish"

iirc that it is.

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