Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t19/nanophlame/450px-Plagueis_head.jpg

No, not that guy.

http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp287/ObiWansLostBrother/CS.jpg

This is him. THe one who uses the dark side to save people from imminent death or possibly even resurrect those who have did briefly.

Has there been any mention of how what Palpatine described in the films is basically what Cade does?

Maybe Plagueis' power has been further explained in supplementary material, I wouldn't know. That's why I'm asking.

Cade's Shatterpoint Resurrection isn't the same as Plagueis' ability to keep people from dieing. It's never been referred to in any source specifically.



That said, Legacy of the Force can go f*ck itself.

...what does LOTF have to do with anything?

He means Legacy.

Tomato potato, shouldn't have used the same word in such two close series.


EDIT: F*ck Legacy of the Force anyway.

Eh, I like it. Legacy I mean.

Once I finish it I'll have to make lots of Legacy threads. The last Cade verssus was in 2009 for god's sake.

no one here will really know anything about Cade tho... I don't think any active members here reads comic books, except maybe McBeefy? I think i've heard him comment on legacy before. I prefer novels to comics myself.

I know all about Cade and the legacy comics. Stand alone, they would be awesome but in terms of continuity, they suck.

Originally posted by truejedi
no one here will really know anything about Cade tho... I don't think any active members here reads comic books, except maybe McBeefy? I think i've heard him comment on legacy before. I prefer novels to comics myself.

Click this...

Anyway I hate Legacy... Ok it has a good story but it shits all over the OT and everything after it. From the Sith ruling the galaxy again, to every aspect of Cade Skywalker, to half a dozen Jedi from he CW still being around, etc...

Yeah, it has problems. Cade is probably the biggest ***** of a character I have ever seen. Cade is simply way too powerful and this abilty is one of the biggest problems.

You do remember he's the descendant of Luke "Overpowered as all Hell" Skywalker right?

I would have thought anyone who posted here knows Luke is the most broken and wanked character in SW. Cade doesn't even begin to approach his great great great great grandfather or whatever Luke is.


Also, sure, it might look like a copout that the Sith came back in Legacy. But consider this.
In the 20 years or so after Return of the Jedi, how many disasters faced the galaxy? How many superweapons, deus ex machinas, aliens, clones, whatever the hell came out of nowhere to threaten stability? It's quite frankly ridiculous.

The mere fact the galaxy got a 100 years of peace is a gift.

I used to not like Legacy for the same reasons as you. "What bullshit. Sith and Empire AGAIN?"

But the SW Galaxy, in the Expanded Universe, is simply a place of constant strife and warfare. It's Warhammer 40k-lite.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
You do remember he's the descendant of Luke "Overpowered as all Hell" Skywalker right?
Please remind me how being the son of the Chosen one makes you "overpowered as hell"? I would love to know.


That is your opinion which lacks any kind of explanation.



Doesn't matter. Lucas' Chosen One was supposed to bring balance and destroy the sith. He didn't.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Please remind me how being the son of the Chosen one makes you "overpowered as hell"? I would love to know.

Because the purpose of the Chosen One is to be overpowered as all hell. Tat seems obvious.




No...it's kinda fact. Cade hasn't done anything near a simpressive as the crap Luke pulls out of his ass.




So? That was evident years ago as soon as Lumiya showed up. Hell, it was obvious as soon as Palpatine was revived.

The Prophecy was trashed long before Legacy.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
So? That was evident years ago as soon as Lumiya showed up. Hell, it was obvious as soon as Palpatine was revived.

The Prophecy was trashed long before Legacy. Yeah, and we've been b*tching since then too. And we're gonna keep on b*tching whenever some unoriginal writers decides to bring the Sith back as an organization of hundreds of Darths.


Just like Legacy.

Such is your right.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Such is your right. Ugh.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
You do remember he's the descendant of Luke "Overpowered as all Hell" Skywalker right?

I would have thought anyone who posted here knows Luke is the most broken and wanked character in SW. Cade doesn't even begin to approach his great great great great grandfather or whatever Luke is.

Sure. Consider that Jacen and Jainia Solo trained for years to reach there current power. Cade however is battling and defeating the mightest of Sith Lords after a couple of months of training. Sure Luke did something similar, but he is the hallmark of Star Wars and arguably had an equal potential to Anakin. Cade has neither of these working in his favor.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight Also, sure, it might look like a copout that the Sith came back in Legacy. But consider this.
In the 20 years or so after Return of the Jedi, how many disasters faced the galaxy? How many superweapons, deus ex machinas, aliens, clones, whatever the hell came out of nowhere to threaten stability? It's quite frankly ridiculous.

Yeah, but the heores always win. Yet, Legacy shows us that in the end, their impact on the galaxy is minimal and despite our heros best efforts the Empire/Sith end up winning.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
The mere fact the galaxy got a 100 years of peace is a gift.

They didn't even bring that. And that just ruins my enjoyment of the series. Jedi Master Hoth brings 1000 years of relative peace, Luke brings 100 years of near constant warfare and a few years after his death the galaxy is in as big of a mess as it was when he was born...

its true. WHATEVER Luke does in FOTJ, WHATEVER he did in LOTF, WHATEVER he did in NJO, they are for NOTHING. They were a waste, and he failed. Sidious did a better job of bringing peace to the galaxy than luke did.

That's been obvious for a long time now.

sooo, that's the obvious problem with Legacy. You asked.

It's the problem with any EU post-movies you mean.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
It's the problem with any EU post-movies you mean. It's been an issue throughout Lotf and FotJ but it is specifically a problem with Legacy. LotF and FotJ at least had the potential of wrapping up the whole "galactic peace" problem, no matter how annoying the emergence of Caedus and these new Tribal Sith are.


But thanks to Legacy, we now know that no matter what happens to Luke, Ben, Abeloth, or the Lost Tribe, it doesn't matter. Because Krayt and his One take over the galaxy and purge the Jedi that Luke created.

Literally all the hard earned efforts toward "peace", the stabilization of the galaxy, the refounding of democracy, and a new Jedi Order, now all amount to a hill of beans because of Legacy. But worst of all, it's being done with the same goddamn thing as before: the Sith. At least the Yuuzhan Vong were comparatively new and original--a possible last major threat. But the Sith, again?! How many f*cking incarnations of that cult does there need to be?

I could say the same for the Jedi.

You'd think they'd take a hint after being wiped out...what, three or four times?

Actually, it's the sad attempts at democracy that should take a hint.
Galactic democracy DOES. NOT. WORK.

And no, it has never mattered. Ever since the Thrawn Trilogy the Galaxy has been besieged by everything and anything.

No matter what Luke does there will never be peace. This was evident long before Legacy. Legacy just showed what threats will emerge in a hundred years.

Forget Legacy ever happened. In a few years there will be anew galactic threat in the EU. And a few years after that, another one.

Peace is a lie.

I think legacy is the last thing they'll write for that era.

So whats Cade's place in the power hierarchy anyway? Is he a Jaina or a Jacen?

Good question!

I have absolutely no idea.

Maybe I'll be able to answer after I finish Legacy and start Legacy War.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's been an issue throughout Lotf and FotJ but it is specifically a problem with Legacy. LotF and FotJ at least had the potential of wrapping up the whole "galactic peace" problem, no matter how annoying the emergence of Caedus and these new Tribal Sith are.


But thanks to Legacy, we now know that no matter what happens to Luke, Ben, Abeloth, or the Lost Tribe, it doesn't matter. Because Krayt and his One take over the galaxy and purge the Jedi that Luke created.

Literally all the hard earned efforts toward "peace", the stabilization of the galaxy, the refounding of democracy, and a new Jedi Order, now all amount to a hill of beans because of Legacy. But worst of all, it's being done with the same goddamn thing as before: the Sith. At least the Yuuzhan Vong were comparatively new and original--a possible last major threat. But the Sith, again?! How many f*cking incarnations of that cult does there need to be?

When one does not come up with new decent enemies, they utilize old popular enemies. Isn't that what The Old Republic is doing?

By the way, it's Star Wars, not Star Peace. If they really want to write new novels they can't have them be about how peaceful the universe is, they need conflict and thus, war.

they could have some regional conflicts like they did for many years between the trilogies. Those were good books. Its the whole galaxy wide conflicts that make it all seem in vain. In all honesty, the galaxy was in better hands with Sidious if you take only the EU into account.

That doesn't mean that they have to have the new conflict be political intrigue or even a golactic issue at all. The LotF book where Ben goes to Farpoint and Han/Leia go to see the Correllians is boring as hell because Traviss wrote itthe conflict is about getting votes. There is simply no way to reconsile the problems of a representative democracy (monied interests, corruption, class warfare) with interesting action/adventure novels aimed at teenagers. That is not a thing that happens. Hell, the first movie opened with the information that the Emperor had abolished the Senate! That movie kicks ass! It is once we get into the jurisdicktion of Senators and Politicians that the saga gets bogged down.

Shatterpoint, one of the better novels in the series, does include political wrangling but it is part of the backdrop/setting. It is after the conflict (i.e. the narrative) moves into the political arena itself that politics begins to harm the Star Wars series. (Basically, the decline of Star Wars, for me, is all Leia's fault.) Edit: I agree completely with TJ. Regional conflicts (like maybe a planet having more than one faction or -GASP- biome) would be a marked imporovement.

I advocate some sort of Hyperspace Storm that isolates the various systems and makes commerce (and especially governance) impractical. The Jedi Diaspora would provide many separate theaters for further stories. (This is not an overreaction; the parts of FotJ where Jaina's Chiss boyfriend can't do anything because of the Council of Moffs and her Imperial boyfriend can't do anything because of the Hapans are completely unreadable.)

so agreed about Jaina and Jag. Horrible.

I agree with TJ. You can have conflict without it being "OMG INTA-STELLAH WAAAGGHHHHH".

In fact, some of the best books in the mythos were not giant interstellar wars. The Thrawn trilogy, Jedi Academy trilogy, and Shatterpoint, for example, were all great series that had conflict and fighting within them. However they did not take place on the same galaxy wide scale that we've seen with the Clone Wars, Rebel/Empire war, Vong war etc etc. After reading those novels, you could actually think to yourself "huh, it looks like there's some actual progress in the Galaxy".

Bounty Hunter Wars, Courtship of Princess Leia, Millenium Falcon Trilogy, Outbound Flight. Nothing on this scale.

and KMC is doing a really bad job of marking threads as New for me since I switched to IE 9, any ideas why?

Well I just like Legacy because it is a very different spin on the typical archetypes of Star Wars.

This spin presents new and very intriguing ideas.

Fr instance, where I am at right now in the comics. We all know about Anakin's ridiculous posessiveness when it came to Padme. He just would not let her die.

Well, in this, Cade has that but it's up to eleven. It makes sense given what happened to him. Trauma at a young age stunts your psychological growth or whatever and seeing your fathe and freinds killed would probably instill in you a fanatical determination not to let anyone else you care about die.

But right now, he just went too far. He lied to his uncle about Azyln wanting to be saved. She wanted to just be let go - to become one with the Force. Cade's actions however have imprisoned her in a metal shell. Vader's descendant's selfishness has doomed a woman he loves to a horrific part-life.

Shit like that, it's well done and it's emotionally powerful.

How is that "a different spin"? It sounds almost exactly the same.

"Young child is emotionally scarred. Young child grows up to become mentally unstable. Unstable man becomes over protective of loved ones. Unstable man performs extremely rash decisions in an attempt to save loved ones, unwittingly ****ing them in the process."

Just more of the same old Star Wars shit.

At least Revan shook things up a bit by being perfect from the start.

Yeah, Revan's character arc is that he was perfect (KotOR I is very complimentary the decision to go to war) and then we find out that he was more perfect (even the Disciple notices that Revan was strengthening the Republic by killing its citizens). Really, if we had gotten KotOR III the only logical step would be to make his character the one that discovers (and trains) Yoda.

And left his genes so he could be cloned in to Galen Marek.

Kotor 1 didn't seem that complimentary about Revan going to war. If anything it pretty much proved that the Council were always right ad that Revan going to war played straight into the Sith's hands just as they predicted.

Kotor 2 was written with Revan in the right precisely becuase that idea (and the black/white morality in general) pissed Avellone off so much.

KotOR 2 also sucked.

Hmm... mmm

Carth would disagree. Everyone involved in the Mandalorian War itself would disagree. It is only after the Sith show up that it is considered a mistake at all.

Carth disagrees about everything. Always.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Untruth. Retruthed. It sucked.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure Carths position in the game is 'Revan and Malak ****ing suuuuuck!' The Sith did bomb his planet and indoctrinate his son afterall. Though I admit I can't remember much of it, I think you talk to him about Revan and Malak joining the war at one point. Carth was all for Revan and Malak during the war, it's when they invaded that he started hating them.

Gameplay sucked. Story and Characters were the winiest.



Well yeah, so I wonder if he thinks them joining in the war was justified or not. Sure it beat the Mando's, but it spawned the Sith, which I recall him saying were worse than the Mando's ever were.

It's two separate events. He was all for the Jedi not being bitches and going to war. He was not all for the Jedi turning into Sith and ****ing up the galaxy. You can't really combine the two. Like, at best it would be "I supported Revan and Malak going to war, they did what none of the other Jedi wanted to do. In hindsight, that didn't end too well though."

I don't see how you can seperate the events myself. One leads into the other. The entire reason why the Jedi didn't enter the war was becuase doing so could lead them right to Revan's position, sparking an even larger war.

Well, I explained how they're separate events... so read above.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how you can seperate the events myself. One leads into the other. The entire reason why the Jedi didn't enter the war was becuase doing so could lead them right to Revan's position, sparking an even larger war. Carth wanted the Jedi to have been involved from the start of the war, and didn't like that the Council kept them out of it. He had a heated discussion with Bastila about it. He felt that if all the people who had died as a result of the Civil War had lived due to the Jedi's potential absence from the Mandalroian War, they would all be speaking Mandalorian.

Revan and KOTOR proved that a complacent and arrogant/ignorant jedi council coincides with the rise(again) of the sith followed by galactic war..

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
How is that "a different spin"? It sounds almost exactly the same.

"Young child is emotionally scarred.

Anakin was never emotionally scarred at a young age.

Hell, neither was Luke.



Luke isn't mentally unstable.



Of one single person, in Anakin's case.



Pretty sure Anakin knew he was ****ing up Padme when he was choking her.

And KOTOR 1 is completely unoriginal. KOTOR ii had some nice new ideas though.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Anakin was never emotionally scarred at a young age.

He was a slave who grew up with no Father... and was also a slave.




ermm





Not referring to the choking.



KOTOR's storyline bored me. Treya's one of the least interesting characters in the mythos, to me.

Well, thats just cuz you suck.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, thats just cuz you suck.
Nah. She's boring and preachy and heavy handed.

Even the parts about determinism/existentialism are cop outs; the gist of existentialism is that you get to pick your own path, but she bitches at you no matter which path you pick. She's all about knowing the unknowable consequences of your actions, but doesn't look at your own motivations. The whole storyline is, in fact, instigated by her, rather than the protagonist. Talk about irony. It was an interesting area to look at, but not one that is easily examined by a video game that is necessarily driven by the free will of the player.


Also she was a shit combatant.

she was crazy lame.

Really? She was always in my party due to the force bond giving me all her buffs. Really useful ability I found, it enabled me to ignore them for the most part and focus on dealing MASSIVE DAMAGE.



Subjective.



Again, subjective, you can't say she's a crap character just because you didn't like her. Besides, she is your mom*, she's supposed to be preachy.

*metaphisikally.



Lol, did we play the same game?



I personally found that a really interesting contradiction. That she wants you to be a totally free manipulative bastard and hates the Force for taking away free will, but acts like an even bigger manipulative bastard in order to force you to do what she wants you to do.



What motivations? The times when she calls you on this you're either being Jesus cuz its the right thing to do, or being a dick for teh luls. Unless you want her to actually just go, 'you're only doing that to max out your alignment, you prick.' You're already called out on your exp points and other various gameplay mechanics, how much more meta do you want this game to get?



The poor taste up in here is really shocking.

She would have been an interesting character if her motives were clear from the start. But as it was, you had to navigate the frustrating influence system in order to drag out her story. And to do that you have put up with endless conversations on morality, existentialism, the Force, cynicism, etc. And all in the most cryptic way possible. Kreia was easily the most annoying and frustrating character in either game, and yes, I do put her above Carth, Bastila, Mission, Zaalbar, and Visas.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
He was a slave who grew up with no Father... and was also a slave.

Being a "slave" huh? A slave who can do pretty much anything he wants.

Oh the horror. I guess Anakin really did have it rougher than Cade who saw his family and friends murdered.



I have no idea what you mean then.

And who cares about Kreia. I was talking about Nihilus and Sion when it came to new and nice ideas.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
A slave who can do pretty much anything he wants.

According to what? We saw like, a day in his life, and there ulterior circumstances.

That being said, seeing Shmii's fate gave us a taste as what it means to be a slave in Tatooine. Being sold to a fat, legless guy and eventually being dragged off to be raped by Arabs in masks seems to be the fate of slaves on Tatooine.




Oh... you know... slaughtering the jedi order, killing children and turning the Galaxy over to a mad man, all in an attempt to keep her from dying, and make the galaxy a safer place. He was genuinely surprised when Padme scolded him for his actions on Mustafar instead of going along with his idea that he'd made the Galaxy a better place, which is what led to the choking out in the first place.

Obviously, he was pretty far gone.

Yeah, considering he had enough time to build a pod-racer and a protocol droid by the time he was 10 (?), as well as actually having a decent-sized house, being a slave doesn't seem to have been that bad for Anakin. One of the essential failings of TPM, imo.



Mission's cool sir. crackers

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Being a "slave" huh? A slave who can do pretty much anything he wants.

Oh the horror. I guess Anakin really did have it rougher than Cade who saw his family and friends murdered. You've never read the novelizations which mention Anakin's memory of the "crack of Watto's whip". It's something he recollects when he taps the Dark Side in RotS. The same novel/movie where his addled mind kills/alienates everyone he cares for.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Oh... you know... slaughtering the jedi order, killing children and turning the Galaxy over to a mad man, all in an attempt to keep her from dying, and make the galaxy a safer place. He was genuinely surprised when Padme scolded him for his actions on Mustafar instead of going along with his idea that he'd made the Galaxy a better place, which is what led to the choking out in the first place.

Obviously, he was pretty far gone.

That's not really comparable at all to what happened in Legacy though. I guess they're kinda similar insofar as you're willing to go to extreme lengths to keep someoen you care about from dying. But killing some nameless people so you can get a technique to keep a person alive is not the same as what Cade did. Not at all.

Cade actually has the power to save people from death. It's just Azlyn wanted to move on. Cade forcing the person he loves, who wanted to die, to stay alive in a limbo of half-life/half-death, is far more grim.

Nameless people?

I wasn't aware people he'd grown up with almost his entire life were nameless people. The Jedi were essentially his family, and many of them were the only friends he had.

They're the same thing unless you're being pedantic. And Cade's actions are not nearly as incredulous as Anakin's were. Cade screwed one girl over for the sake of his desires. Anakin ****ed over the entire galaxy for the sake of his desires, killed his father figure, and murdered the one person who brought him happiness, Padme, and nearly killed his two unborn children in the process. Trillions of people's unahppiness were on his hands, due to his actions in Return of the Sith.

actually, he would have successfully brought peace to his new empire if it weren't for the stupid rebels....

I mean, as we said, the galaxy was a more peaceful place when Sidious was running it.

The Rebellion didn't start the... rebellion, on that one planet that was so bad that Tarkin decided to land his Star Destroyer on them, which ended up killing like a million people.

Which of course means that the Galaxy actually wasn't that peaceful. There were multiple Rebellions, it's just that none of them became as powerful as "The" Rebellion. There was the Wookiee enslavement, as well as a few other conflicts.

So, yah. Not really all that peaceful. There just weren't any outright wars, besides the fight with the Rebellion.

But regardless, "it was peaceful if it wasn't for the Rebels" is an odd statement to make. The Republic(s) were all peaceful if not for the Vong, Mandalorians, and Sith. There is always just one large faction that ****s it up for the ruling regime in Star Wars. Just goes to show you how basically nothing ever changes in the multi-millenial Star Wars mythos.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Nameless people?

I wasn't aware people he'd grown up with almost his entire life were nameless people. The Jedi were essentially his family, and many of them were the only friends he had.

They're the same thing unless you're being pedantic. And Cade's actions are not nearly as incredulous as Anakin's were. Cade screwed one girl over for the sake of his desires. Anakin ****ed over the entire galaxy for the sake of his desires, killed his father figure, and murdered the one person who brought him happiness, Padme, and nearly killed his two unborn children in the process. Trillions of people's unahppiness were on his hands, due to his actions in Return of the Sith. Essentially every evil act the Empire ever commits can be attributed to Anakin's valuing Padme more than... anyone else in the galaxy. That includes Alderaan.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
So, yah. Not really all that peaceful. I would still say more peaceful than everything post-RotJ.

she was the hottest woman I saw in the galaxy, to be honest.

Ahsoka.

http://www.mspaforums.com/images/smilies/datrump.gif

Originally posted by truejedi
she was the hottest woman I saw in the galaxy, to be honest. The Star Wars Gangsta Rap Chronicles wouldn't include Padme, but she and Leia are the only chicks in outer space.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Nameless people?

I wasn't aware people he'd grown up with almost his entire life were nameless people. The Jedi were essentially his family, and many of them were the only friends he had.

I highly doubt Anakin knew every Jedi. In fact, even the ones he did know, he didn't really like if hi sinteraction with the Council is any indication.



You're not getting this. Like, at all.

They died. Boohoo. Padme would rather die and abandon her children.

All those people are now happier and better off.

Cade actually enslaved and imposed his will on a girl he cared about out of a misguided attempt to keep her alive. He has damned her in an living hell.

That's far darker and more grim than anything Emokin ever did.



A million is a statistic. Trillions of people died in the Vong War.

Were their deaths mourned by the readers to the extent of say, Anakin's?

Named characters are important for a reason. They're the ones you're supposed to care or empathize with. They're the ones you have the strongest feelings for.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Essentially every evil act the Empire ever commits can be attributed to Anakin's valuing Padme more than... anyone else in the galaxy. That includes Alderaan.

No. Just no. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Tell me this. What would be different had Palpatine just flung Anakin's ass out the window along with Windu?

Could he not execute Order 66? The Jedi still "rebelled". He still had the 501st to assault the hardly defended Temple. He could still reshape the Republic into the Empire.

Anakin is completely superflous. The Empire would be formed with or without his turning.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
A million is a statistic. Trillions of people died in the Vong War.

Were their deaths mourned by the readers to the extent of say, Anakin's?

Wow. Just... wow. Good job, man. You've really missed the point.

I created a discussion for something like this a long time ago. Consider the fact that while Luke destroyed the evil empire, he brought far more death and destruction to the galaxy than the Empire ever could. The discussion then went into whether or not it would have been better for Luke to do what he did or for the Empire to continue existing. I opted for the latter, the lesser of two evils.

Jesus.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
No. Just no. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Tell me this. What would be different had Palpatine just flung Anakin's ass out the window along with Windu?

Could he not execute Order 66? The Jedi still "rebelled". He still had the 501st to assault the hardly defended Temple. He could still reshape the Republic into the Empire.

Anakin is completely superflous. The Empire would be formed with or without his turning. I hate to ask, considering the topic, but... did you even see RotS? There was a point in the movie where Palpatine was literally about to die at Windu's hand, but Anakin intervened for the purpose of gaining the power to save his wife. His desire for her to live literally led to the formation of Palpatine's Empire.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I hate to ask, considering the topic, but... did you even see RotS? There was a point in the movie where Palpatine was literally about to die at Windu's hand, but Anakin intervened for the purpose of gaining the power to save his wife. His desire for her to live literally led to the formation of Palpatine's Empire.

I think he means that Palpatine's obsession with Anakin was superfluous and ultimately inconsequential to his greater agenda. I'd agree, but you're also right: Anakin's actions in the Chancellor's office sealed the galaxy's fate.

Palpatine was also only in that compromising situation because of his faith in Anakin.

I'm not saying he threw the fight. I'm saying he saw no reason to have any protection or anything special because he knew Anakin would come.

Anakin saved Palpatine because that's what Palpatine wanted.

Originally posted by Noedig
I think he means that Palpatine's obsession with Anakin was superfluous and ultimately inconsequential to his greater agenda. I'd agree, but you're also right: Anakin's actions in the Chancellor's office sealed the galaxy's fate. I think he meant that too. The guy doesn't seem to bright; I don't know how he managed to muddle so many things.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Palpatine was also only in that compromising situation because of his faith in Anakin.

I'm not saying he threw the fight. I'm saying he saw no reason to have any protection or anything special because he knew Anakin would come.

Anakin saved Palpatine because that's what Palpatine wanted.



I've got this, nugga.



Seems bright to me!

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Palpatine was also only in that compromising situation because of his faith in Anakin.

I'm not saying he threw the fight. I'm saying he saw no reason to have any protection or anything special because he knew Anakin would come.

Anakin saved Palpatine because that's what Palpatine wanted. And it's also what Anakin wanted. One swing from Windu and Palpatine's dead. Anakin intervened and saved the Sith's life for his own selfish desires. An hour later he's systematically slaughtering his surrogate family and a bunch of children. Later still he's cutting down unarmed people and trying to kill his best friend and mentor (and succeeded in killing his wife, the primary motivation behind all of this). That is one f*cked up dude. Cade's got nothing on this nutjob.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And it's also what Anakin wanted. One swing from Windu and Palpatine's dead. Anakin intervened and saved the Sith's life for his own selfish desires. An hour later he's systematically slaughtering his surrogate family and a bunch of children. Later still he's cutting down unarmed people and trying to kill his best friend and mentor (and succeeded in killing his wife, the primary motivation behind all of this). That is one f*cked up dude. Cade's got nothing on this nutjob.

You're under the mistaken belief that death is the worst thing imaginable it seems.

I can tell you right now, most of the people Anakin killed wee not under that belief. They were ready to die and join with The Force.

It's the Jedi creed - whatever happens, it is because The Force wills it.

Is what Anakin did horrible? Undoubtedly.

Is it as horrible on a personal level as what Cade did? Not even close.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I created a discussion for something like this a long time ago. Consider the fact that while Luke destroyed the evil empire, he brought far more death and destruction to the galaxy than the Empire ever could. The discussion then went into whether or not it would have been better for Luke to do what he did or for the Empire to continue existing. I opted for the latter, the lesser of two evils.

Based on mainstream EU and what we see in the movies, agreed.

But taking into account of what we know from the Emperor's greater plans for the galaxyuniverse from the Dark Empire Sourcebook, I ain't so sure.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
You're under the mistaken belief that death is the worst thing imaginable it seems.

I can tell you right now, most of the people Anakin killed wee not under that belief. They were ready to die and join with The Force.

It's the Jedi creed - whatever happens, it is because The Force wills it.

Is what Anakin did horrible? Undoubtedly.

Is it as horrible on a personal level as what Cade did? Not even close. I give up.

Anyone else wanna try?

no

So, does rex want to get rid of the dupe posing as gideon?

Smart.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I give up.

Anyone else wanna try?

I'm sorry but it seems you just have a limited view of the matter.

Dying is not the worst thing that can happen to a person. Especially not in the SW setting.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
I'm sorry but it seems you just have a limited view of the matter.

Dying is not the worst thing that can happen to a person. Especially not in the SW setting.

True, but facilitating the deaths of billions or trillions is nothing to sneeze at.

I understand that. But you have to understand things from the point-of-view of a writer to his audeince.

Star Wars is a space opera. Billions, millions, quadrillions, they die all the time in such settings.

Yo can't mourn every death. Nor are you expected to. These are non-existent people who you have non-existent feelings for.

If a character you've come to appreciate dies, if someoen you've come to emotionally invest yourself in is slaughtered or hurt, that's going to effect you more than a bunch of nameless, faceless people kicking the bucket.

That's what I'm saying. What Cade did effected me on a far more visceral level than what Anakin did.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
That's what I'm saying. What Cade did effected me on a far more visceral level than what Anakin did.

Understood, but what you're relating here is your subjective reaction. Within the universe, what Anakin did was far more horrific as to be on an entirely different plateau of villainy.

Well that's a fair enough point. There's no arguing that because Vader is actually a villain while Cade is just.....not heroic.

But yeah, I can agree with that.

link to the dope? or is it noedig? Cause he doesn't seem like gideon to this one...

Originally posted by truejedi
link to the dope? or is it noedig? Cause he doesn't seem like gideon to this one... Noedig. Use of the strike feature. Mentioning Dark Empire sourcebook. In italics.

G-Man alright. Plus his name...

hmmm... yeah, his name is tricky. n/m. i withdraw my idiocy.


Oh, and obviously Anakin is more evil than Cade....

I have it on good faith that the individual in question is curious as to why no one ever believes that it's actually him when he posts.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Really? She was always in my party due to the force bond giving me all her buffs. Really useful ability I found, it enabled me to ignore them for the most part and focus on dealing MASSIVE DAMAGE.
That's boring as hell. The only use for my party of three is killing as fast as possible. Thus, HK (who does all of the damage) and glitch!Hanharr (who has all of the strength). The others are taken with if and only if they have an influence point or interesting quip.



Not really. Initially her only defining character traits are "bossy" and "cryptic." That's even lampshaded a few times, most notably during the very first conversation in the game. Getting deeper than that requires the PC to ignore the various Sith connections (which could have been interesting if we didn't get an explicit cutscene while still on TarisTelos) and bring her everywhere. There's no motivation to bring her except to keep her away from the ship.


Nope. Being preachy or not is an empirically testable trait. Does Kreia spend more than nine tenths of her screen time in a monologue? Is her soliloquy designed to assert her world view? Is she utterly apathetic about events around her, favoring chastisement about utterly irrelevant decisions or problems that could not be avoided? Is the answer to any of these questions yes? Then she is preachy. Whether or not that is a detriment to her character is up to you to decide, but the trait itself is not in question. I did not like her because of the trait, but it obviously doesn't bother you. I'm not trying to convince you, but to explain my position. We're having a conversation, not an argument, ****wit!



You didn't find the 5 credit scene to be annoying? When your every choice leads to the guy getting stabbed AND a lecture, there is a problem that really becomes apparent after your seventh or eighth playthrough.



Yes. This is an interesting concept for a character. There is no awareness of this shown in the game that I recall, however. Even in the final scene, she talks only about her own hopes for you, her own intentions. For a game about the power of a single choice, you aren't given one for the entire plot! There are obviously limitations of the hardware, but the story itself (limited in large part by a mostly passive protagonist) is both reactionary and limited. The player chooses to be a saint or a demon, and that's it. There is no chance to turn away from the path, nor (explicitly) a motivation for that choice in-universe. As Kreia notes at the end, "there is only you."

Basically, the writer just gives a big middle finger to anyone interested in the plot; it's just a collection of things that happen to a nameless, ultimately unknown Jedi.



I want it to be less meta. It's great to point out the limitations of the genera (the "hardware" I talk about above) but then you have to do something about them. There is no such innovation, just the apathetic, dispassionate surrender to that obstacle. "Well, we're stuck outlining your path, and even in universe it's obvious that you have no choices, but we're not going to let the player jump the rails or even let the player attack the railroad plot vicariously through the railroad plot." The most fun that I had during the KotOR series was on Korriban while navigating the Sith Academy. Uthar and his apprentice were dead set on betraying one another, and you can use like three different debuffs on them at once. The writers know that you can't do anything about the fight in advance, not even preparing yourself for a fight against two Sith masters. So, it gives you an out. Even though the player is committed to the fight, the character has an out. In KotOR 2, the player is going to have to meet every single Jedi Master; that's just what the game is about. What is so disappointing is that there is no agency given to the Exile whatsoever. There are just these things that happen, many of which are directly caused by Kreia. It's like dueling Mary Sue for the writer's affections.

...There is much anger in you, child.

I spent hours trying to say the right thing to kreia to keep her from blasting me on dantooine. what a waste.

I like that scene.

I'll respond on the morrow when I'm not avoiding writing an essay and have hopefully gotten some sleep.

do you think a Fallout 3 playthrough where I don't use VATS at all would be worth the time?

Originally posted by Noedig
Understood, but what you're relating here is your subjective reaction. Within the universe, what Anakin did was far more horrific as to be on an entirely different plateau of villainy.
I'm gonna have to disagree.

The SW Mythos has a defined and known afterlife. Killing people just sends them to an eternal session playing tanglebuddies with every other life form ever to exist. Nothing wrong with that.

Keeping someone from that is literally the most vile thing imaginable. If is some decreasing value like 1/x^2 (where x is any positive value) then lim as x goes to infinity converges to some finite value. That value may even be negative, if the immortal being would prefer to die. However, the value of infinite oneness with Bliss itself for eternity is something like infinity to the infinitieth power infinity times.

Immortality as a flawed creature when the afterlife is infinitely more desirable is the most damning action imaginable. There were like seven pods holding Jedi back from becoming one with the Force on the Star Forge, and that was enough Dark Side Energy to consign an entire galaxy-spanning civilization to the abyss. This is srs bsns.

For the record, I like where they're going with TOR. The timeline gives the plot some character (pun intended).

Originally posted by truejedi
do you think a Fallout 3 playthrough where I don't use VATS at all would be worth the time? Yes, if you're looking for a challenge. Really spices things up I found.

Originally posted by Noedig
Does it?

For the life of me, I can't remember confirmation on what happens to non-Force sensitives upon death. Don't they just "transform into the Force", losing their individual identities?

that's what i was gonna say. After life is only for force sensitives.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Don't they just "transform into the Force", losing their individual identities?

I'm not sure.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes, if you're looking for a challenge. Really spices things up I found.

I still haven't finished my last playthrough, where my plan is to visit every single location. I have the 5 expansions installed, and haven't touched them. Well over 200 hours in. I finally cheated myself to a 1k weight limit so I don't have to go back and sell things every couple of hours... now I can just explore all night.

Originally posted by Noedig
I'm not sure.

Yoda was up in that shit.

Originally posted by truejedi
now I can just explore all night.

Obligatory mom joke.

Edit:

This, too. Anakin's evilness is mostly informed evilness. There are so much more intimate ways of describing a fall than what Anakin showed. For example, this is one aspect of Caedus that I actually liked. The early slips, before he starts shooting lasers at trees, are actually rather subtle. Bashing in a criminal's head with the Force out of frustration, fear, and expedience is totally the sort of thing that leads to a hardcore fall. (Of course, the motivations for the fall themselves were utter shit. It was just the early path it followed that I liked.)

Originally posted by truejedi
I still haven't finished my last playthrough, where my plan is to visit every single location. I have the 5 expansions installed, and haven't touched them. Well over 200 hours in. I finally cheated myself to a 1k weight limit so I don't have to go back and sell things every couple of hours... now I can just explore all night. Play the DLCs, they're fun. Specially the one that extends the game's ending beyond the credits.

Ahh, Caedus had such potential.

I never got Caedus' motivations myself. Going Sith was the only way for Luke not to die, but...... then he tries to kill Luke? Did he ever actually use his 'look into the future' thingy again?

Also, Betrayal was actually a good book I thought.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I never got Caedus' motivations myself. Going Sith was the only way for Luke not to die, but...... then he tries to kill Luke? Did he ever actually use his 'look into the future' thingy again?

Yes, at least during the events of Invincible, where he saw a corrupt!Luke sitting on his "dark throne."

Originally posted by Noedig
For the record, I like where they're going with TOR. The timeline gives the plot some character (pun intended).

TOR sucks.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
TOR sucks.

I once agreed, and it could definitely improve, but I like the nuance they're giving the Sith Emperor's plot.

It's definitely menacing and multilayered.

TOR's webcomics pretty good. Dunno about the portrayal of the Emperor though. He seems a bit too pretty.

The videos paint him as much more impressive however.

Luke created that vision for Caedus. That was what was beautiful about that series. Luke was all up in Caedus's s*** the whole time and Caedus never knew.

Originally posted by truejedi
Luke created that vision for Caedus. That was what was beautiful about that series. Luke was all up in Caedus's s*** the whole time and Caedus never knew.

I enjoyed seeing a dark!Luke, but they had neutered Caedus beyond redemption at that point.

they started well. I liked where Caedus didn't actually mean to do the evil things. his torment over his "sacrifice" (which since when does a sith have to make a sacrifice... none of the rest of them ever had to....) it was the second he killed mara and was rewarded with magical powers that the whole thing went downhill. can you say RPG LEVEL UP?

Originally posted by truejedi
they started well. I liked where Caedus didn't actually mean to do the evil things. his torment over his "sacrifice" (which since when does a sith have to make a sacrifice... none of the rest of them ever had to....) it was the second he killed mara and was rewarded with magical powers that the whole thing went downhill. can you say RPG LEVEL UP?

I meant neutered as in "credible threat," not morality.

I'm still waiting for competent!Luke. If they're going to go into another all-out Galactic shindig for the metaphysical rule of the Galaxy, Luke should step up and wreck some assholes before he gets taken out. I'd like an attack on the Sith homeplanet itself. (Note: am current only to the point where Luke is beating up Rancors on Dathomir.)

oh true. he didn't even have two arms... They neutered him the second they had luke pin him in his chair for the length of a conversation.... In that single moment we realized the ONLY thing keeping this series alive was LUke's misguided morality.

take that back. He had 2 hands at the end after getting his third hand cut off by Jaina in her first assault.

I think they should have had Mara kill him, and then do Mara Jade&Ben vs Dark!Luke.

Now that would have been tragedy.

Thats nothing. I just finished Battlestar Galactica. On that show you need love to get pregnant and people trip out seeing angels once an episode. Good show though.

I have it on good faith that the individual in question argues with the less enlightened folk at another forum about the necessity of limiting Luke Skywalker's power through ways beyond writer's fiat.

link?
Edit: I don't mind writer fiat. It's a necessary evil. I just don't like incompetence. If they had let Luke buckle down and actually kill the goddamn kid we'd be having amuch different convo.

Oy.. Welcome back Gideon.

I take it the individual in question probably believes that since Luke doesn't use his awesome (oh yes, his awesome powers) powers in every situation, that he doesn't really possess them? : ) I think that is probably what the individual would say.

I am more of the opinion that they have tied luke into a moral corner where he believes using the force to create pure carnage is wrong.

Oh, btw, what does the individual in question think of the fact that now Luke has killed 2 abeloths, but she keeps coming back for more? (like your mom did last night)?

Originally posted by Noedig
http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/28225365/p429/?10704

^ This is the great hub of Luke fans.

I actually know some of those people in RL... And NO! I, truejedi (who would be Jedi GrandMaster if Raz ever freaking came back) am the true hub of Luke fans. Myself. By myself. And trucelent is my minion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would Luke go dark? Jacen wasn't that awesome.
Propheshy


There were some major halucinations going down in that boy's eyeball. He saw Allana being evil, Luke being evil, and at some point a lightsaber was getting...........MAD DUNKS

Darth Malgus novel comes out in 2 days. I hope it doesn't suck.

Isn't that one of the central tenants of the Jedi? A Jedi uses the Force for defence, to protect, but never to attack. Stuff like that?

Originally posted by truejedi
I take it the individual in question probably believes that since Luke doesn't use his awesome (oh yes, his awesome powers) powers in every situation, that he doesn't really possess them? : ) I think that is probably what the individual would say.

I'm sure the individual in question believes that a holistic examination of Luke's powers reveals that he's not some sort of untouchable demi- god, but that's not exactly the point of the topic that he was discussing.



There are those who believe that Luke should be some unstoppable superwarrior. The individual in question believes that this would be foolish, which is why you hardly ever see that Luke.



The individual in question is not impressed with Abeloth, and doesn't think Luke really is impressed with her either.

ohmigosh. literally LMFAO. hurry, he is escaping from aboves. you have to turn it turnwise.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't understand the concept of "necessary evil". If it's necessary, how can it be evil?
WHO ARE YOU TO SAY WHAT IS EVIL







aHEM. Sorry about that. What I meant is that writer fiat is necessary to prevent power creep; Luke's status presently is like Windex: he can fix every problem. Figuring out a reason for him to hold back/refrain is important. It's just that being incompetent sucks, because then we get things like Sith Cyborg Lady dueling him to a standstill. BLUH BLUH INCONSISTENT

i am profiling this comic. And i have never profiled anything. ever.

Minion means person who is your sexual *****, you know.



Obviously because, as is now painfully obvious to anyone with a brain, Luke has basically gone completely off the deep end in every way.

Luke has officially gone grimdark.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Minion means person who is your sexual *****, you know.




why yes, yes I do.

Originally posted by truejedi
ohmigosh. literally LMFAO. hurry, he is escaping from aboves. you have to turn it turnwise.

It's made by the same guy who did Homestuck, which is even funnier. Read itreaditreaditredaitreadtireadiuyr readirt.

I just read the entire article on the Sith Empire of TOR, and its existence in the mythos sounds pretty good, in theory. I like how it ties in with the Mandalorian War and the Jedi Civil War.

Operative term being "in theory", as the execution, I predict/have seen in trailers is nothing short of f*cking plagiarism.

The writers could have been and definitely need to be (in the future) more original in terms of the Empire's design, but I like the mythology behind it.

This thread went somewhere horrible in my absence.

I still doubt TOR will be interesting in terms of storyline. I'm sure that several missions or "Flashpoints" may have good storylines on their own but I don't think all of them will be connected in a way that events in KOTOR are connected. This will be the main problem.

Also, being forced to work with 3 others, being forced into a role and having to win a dice roll to be able to talk just isn't appealing.