Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Straight up fight. No PIS or CIS.

Both fighting to the best of their ability to take the other out of the fight (Death/KO/Crippled).

Both get standard equipment. Bullseye gets his usual set of throwing weapons (knives, cards, shuriken, etc.), two sai, and two pistols. Batgirl gets her standard utility belt and everything that comes with it.

Takes place in an abandoned city environment, similar to both Gotham and NYC. They start 90 feet apart (the distance between home plate and first base).

Who takes it?

cassi wins

Fight starts; Bullseye pulls the trigger, Batgirl dodges and the fight is on.

45 seconds and 30 ricochets later, Batgirl gets a bullet in the back of her head.

Good fight. I'll give Cass the majority. 7/10

you gave bullseye a GUN. cis is off. he MURDERS her. no toying around or anything

Actually, they gave him two guns.

yea, but he doesnt need two

Originally posted by Metalmanx
two pistols

...

They start 90 feet apart (the distance between home plate and first base).

why do you hate cass?

her funeral will be lovely .

Originally posted by complexbrother
her funeral will be lovely .

Closed casket after he blows her head off.

How does DD handle Bullseye when he has a gun?

Is it a "he doesn't, he just avoids this situation," kind of thing?

I've seen cassie allow bullets to get inches away from her face before dodging them with a playful smile. Bulls needs something faster than a gun to hit her with because if she closes the distance, she'll rip his adamantium spine out. Does he still have that?

Tough one. Like mentioned Cass had dodged bullets with ease before, however with Bullseye it'll most likely be a totally different story.

If Cass gets in close though she'll take it.

bullseye STOMPS

Originally posted by long pig
Bulls needs something faster than a gun to hit her

so, to you it is reasonable that Cass can't be tagged by anything moving slower than the speed of sound?

Yeah with a gun... Bullseye is pretty damn nasty. I would say B is good enough to defend himself in a h2h (not something he would want to get into) But without CIS Bullseye would be firing in all sorts of ways and ricocheting shit like crazy and eventually hits cass.

So how does DD deal with him when he has a gun?

---

Sidenote, projectile speed isn't the primary degree of difficulty decider in dodging. To quote a certain ninja, "The problem with your gun is you have to point it where you want to send the bullets, and I can see that."

Unpredictability and such matter a lot more.

Originally posted by Q99
So how does DD deal with him when he has a gun?

imho, PIS, unless the context allows for DD to reasonably cut down the distance between the two

DD's radar sense also gives him a better spatial understanding of his opponent's body, so if any hero could be said to be able to accurately predict bullet trajectory, he seems the best

Originally posted by Q99
Sidenote, projectile speed isn't the primary degree of difficulty decider in dodging. To quote a certain ninja, "The problem with your gun is you have to point it where you want to send the bullets, and I can see that."

Unpredictability and such matter a lot more.

maybe in a fictional universe, sure, and if that is the excuse people want to use in most bulletdodging feats, I wont argue against that the same way I wont argue that radiation doesn't give people superpowers

this is an entire red herring, though, as many bullet dodging feats have nothing to do with processing the gun aim. Many bullet dodging feats have heroes dodging bullets in mid flight, or ones fired when their back was turned. In these instances, "i saw where you were going to shoot" doesn't cover it, and show the inherent PIS of guns in comics.

lol, geez, I sound like a one trick pony on this lately...

Originally posted by inimalist
imho, PIS, unless the context allows for DD to reasonably cut down the distance between the two

DD's radar sense also gives him a better spatial understanding of his opponent's body, so if any hero could be said to be able to accurately predict bullet trajectory, he seems the best


If there's two heroes who can, it'd be DD and Cass.





Most projectiles, the travel speed is high enough that the distance between shooter and target doesn't give enough time move a body out of the way no matter what the projectile is.

Odds are if someone has you in their sights from 20 feet away, whether it's crossbow bolt, bullet, or laser it hardly matters, the speed of the projectile leaves you insufficient dodging time to react in all three cases. The bolt just gives you 'practically squat' time before you're hit and the laser gives you 'actually squat'.


Seeing where the aim is and avoiding it is pretty much the only way to dodge fire, and getting out of the way of the barrel requires significantly less speed than 'projectile dodging' in all cases.



Personally I generally chalk it up to artistic license. Because... comic bullets are like 30 mph otherwise

Originally posted by Q99
So how does DD deal with him when he has a gun?

---

Sidenote, projectile speed isn't the primary degree of difficulty decider in dodging. To quote a certain ninja, "The problem with your gun is you have to point it where you want to send the bullets, and I can see that."

Unpredictability and such matter a lot more. BE's acruaccy rate drops when he faces superhumans or even peak humans. DD has mocked him for it. she can dodge some fire, but I doubt she can keep it up indefinitely and he is good enough to tag teleporters with ricochets. while DD can perceive the entirety of the 3d space arround him, cassie's body reading gimmick will be useless against calculated ricochets.

BE 7/10

Originally posted by Q99
Most projectiles, the travel speed is high enough that the distance between shooter and target doesn't give enough time move a body out of the way no matter what the projectile is.

Odds are if someone has you in their sights from 20 feet away, whether it's crossbow bolt, bullet, or laser it hardly matters, the speed of the projectile leaves you insufficient dodging time to react in all three cases. The bolt just gives you 'practically squat' time before you're hit and the laser gives you 'actually squat'.

Seeing where the aim is and avoiding it is pretty much the only way to dodge fire, and getting out of the way of the barrel requires significantly less speed than 'projectile dodging' in all cases.

yes, and if the year were 1512 and the only guns in existence were highly inaccurate and single fire, you might have a point. In reality, the ability to shoot a second projectile at a target already in motion makes this idea ludicrous.

The idea that a person, even with comic representations of "peak human", could consistently dodge gunfire like that is nonsense. I can list the science, but like I said before, I see this as a radiation-doesn't-cause-superpowers thing. I'll accept that DD or bats or cap or whoever can evade trained marksmen by "knowing where they will shoot because of their body position", but I am unwilling to accept strict "bullet dodging"

Originally posted by Q99
Personally I generally chalk it up to artistic license. Because... comic bullets are like 30 mph otherwise

I agree, but without some "actual" statement about how fast bullets are in comics, I tend to look at most things involving them as PIS. Some comics and writers do it justice, for sure, and I suppose I'm making sweeping, blanket statements here, but ya, given some of the scans that have shown up in the past couple of days, this idea has really only been reinforced imho

Bulls has tagged dd with a gun before. Right where he wanted to, no less. Not to mention there's literally no way for cass to be able to expect to his trick shots whereas dd has his radar

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, and if the year were 1512 and the only guns in existence were highly inaccurate and single fire, you might have a point. In reality, the ability to shoot a second projectile at a target already in motion makes this idea ludicrous.

The second projectile'll still be going where the gun's pointing.

Hm, that's another thing about comic guns- recoil apparently doesn't matter, you can fire two aimed rounds in a second with the second one being just as well aimed as the first.



Aren't we kinda on the same side on this? I'm talking about 'keeping the barrel from lining up on you when the trigger is pulled,' not strict bullet dodging.

I'm just emphasizing how projectile speed realistically doesn't matter much. It's almost impossible to dodge something going 150mph, whether something's going 1,000 or 100,000 definitely doesn't matter for squat in terms of hit/dodge difficulty, you're already at impossible.

point remais, even though she can doge his fire and other peak/superhumans have done so, she aint keeping it up for a majority

Originally posted by Q99
The second projectile'll still be going where the gun's pointing.

Hm, that's another thing about comic guns- recoil apparently doesn't matter, you can fire two aimed rounds in a second with the second one being just as well aimed as the first.

there are scans of punisher accurately hip firing 2 m16s at once.

Originally posted by Q99
Aren't we kinda on the same side on this? I'm talking about 'keeping the barrel from lining up on you when the trigger is pulled,' not strict bullet dodging.

I'm just emphasizing how projectile speed realistically doesn't matter much. It's almost impossible to dodge something going 150mph, whether something's going 1,000 or 100,000 definitely doesn't matter for squat in terms of hit/dodge difficulty, you're already at impossible.

maybe. if you think bulletdodging feats insinuate that cass can't be tagged by bullets, no we arent. but, you seem to believe its impossible, so we agree

Bumpity-Bump.

Batgirl dances up to him and smacks the stupid out of his face.

highly unlikely.

Originally posted by inimalist

maybe. if you think bulletdodging feats insinuate that cass can't be tagged by bullets, no we arent. but, you seem to believe its impossible, so we agree

My point is dodging guns isn't about projectile speed at all, but is almost entirely about dodging the aim.

Originally posted by inimalist

The idea that a person, even with comic representations of "peak human", could consistently dodge gunfire like that is nonsense.

Toe be quite honest I've always felt that some peak humans can actually move at several 100 miles per hour for a split second. Also some writers have peak humans aim dodge. In the Dark Knight returns Batman dodged gunfire by not being caught dead on his feet, was kinda nice and made it believable.

Originally posted by Q99
My point is dodging guns isn't about projectile speed at all, but is almost entirely about dodging the aim.

so then is your argument is that cass can't be hit by bullseye?

Originally posted by Deadline
Toe be quite honest I've always felt that some peak humans can actually move at several 100 miles per hour for a split second.

oh, I guess we disagree there...

several hundred?

Originally posted by Deadline
Also some writers have peak humans aim dodge. In the Dark Knight returns Batman dodged gunfire by not being caught dead on his feet, was kinda nice and made it believable.

believable in terms of "not as outright crazy as bulletdodging", sure. I wouldn't depend on that strategy on the battlefield.

but really, I've stated many times that I will accept that as just how the comic world works. At least there is some attempt there to reconcile bullet speeds with character reflexes.

Originally posted by inimalist
so then is your argument is that cass can't be hit by bullseye?


My argument is that whether or not she can isn't based on how fast bullets move.

right, avoiding something is unrelated to its speed..............?

Originally posted by inimalist
right, avoiding something is unrelated to its speed..............?

Originally posted by inimalist
right, avoiding something is unrelated to its speed..............?

The speed of the projectile, yes, because it's so quick to be almost instant anyway.

It's highly dependent on how fast someone can aim accurate/track with the gun/etc..


Double or half the speed of the bullet and you change the number of hits almost none at all. Double how well the firer can track and accurately hit and things change a lot.

Dodging 'bullets' is all about aim dodging, because the dodging is done when the person is trying to aim and in the small delay between trigger pull and fired bullet, not while it's in mid-air.

yes, and I've said arguing against that would be like arguing against radiation powers. I get what you are saying. its a point Ive made myself

realistically, someone who has held a gun before (depending on the distance) could likely pick off an average person in motion. Maybe not with a single shot, but once the body commits its momentum in a single direction, it is fairly easy to estimate its trajectory. This is why you to run straight for cover, and not roll, jump and cartwheel. This is why, realitically, the idea of even this type of bulletdodging is nonsense, but sure, maybe it allows cass to dodge fire from goons or what have you in a comic book universe, and I should suspend my disbelief at least that much.

it doesn't allow her to dodge anything from a character whose power is defined by being able to make 100% accurate shots. maybe cass dodges one or two, but by commiting to those dodges, she essentially dies from the continuing fire. her only option is cover, as being in the open for any amount of time will leave her punctured.

Originally posted by Q99
The speed of the projectile, yes, because it's so quick to be almost instant anyway.

It's highly dependent on how fast someone can aim accurate/track with the gun/etc..


Double or half the speed of the bullet and you change the number of hits almost none at all. Double how well the firer can track and accurately hit and things change a lot.

Dodging 'bullets' is all about aim dodging, because the dodging is done when the person is trying to aim and in the small delay between trigger pull and fired bullet, not while it's in mid-air. in general that's be true, but cass has feats that make iot clear she sees the bullets and doges them after theyve been fired.

The distance is to great imo Lester wins

Bullseye can ricochet bullets?

Umm yes easily

Originally posted by SasuOna
Bullseye can ricochet bullets? hes so good, he can hit teleporters with the ricochets

BE stomp 10/10, with theses stipulations.

Originally posted by Q99
Dodging 'bullets' is all about aim dodging, because the dodging is done when the person is trying to aim and in the small delay between trigger pull and fired bullet, not while it's in mid-air.

I would agree for SOME characters, but we've also seen higher end MAs like Cassie and Elektra dodge after bullets have been fired. Cassie's scan was posted and Elektra just did it recently in Dark Reign when she was dodging sniper fire AFTER the muzzle flash. Cap outran a bullet to it's target, or at least the art implied as much. I'm sure there are other instances with other characters, unless it's just really that uncommon. Dodging bullets after they are fired is just a staple of the capable MA in comics. It doesn't have to make sense because, well, COMICS. Half the free universe can fire lasers out of their face.

Pretty sure in that book Cap jumped in the way of bullet and blocked, not outrun it to the target. But he still did it after it was fired, yeah.