Elder Gods battle

WhiteWitchKing

Originally posted by zopzop
Which retcon? Gaea's or Set's?

That's not even a retcon. It was just Hera's summarized version of the events. Essentially it was Pak trying to push Mikaboshi as the darkness before everything while never really explaining anything about established continuity.

If the Demiurge never created Gaea and the Elder Gods, who created them and who did Gaea mate with to create Atum? Earth existed before the Elder Gods and the Demiurge; they came after it's creation. Pak didn't plan it out right but essentially he meant the Earth came into being from the void along with the rest of creation. If we take it as just Gaea, then we take it as is and Gaea would precede all other Elder Gods as well as they never mention any other gods coming into being but Gaea. All this makes no sense because it's establish by previous books that Gaea had siblings and a son who all came from the Demiurge. One version of the past by Hera doesn't all of a sudden retcon away the Demiurge's role as father of the Elder Gods and Gaea's consort.

Not sure what part of any of that retcons Gaea's history. Are you referring to the part where it says Gaea gathers all her children and grandchildren to mourn the end of creation? Because she technically is the mother of a lot of them and grandmother due to being Atum's mother. Atum released the energies of the Elder Gods and birthing the second generation of gods - so yeah she's their grandmother as well. There's no mention of anything else that says the Demiurge is retcon out of existence.

You might want to read those books again. If anything, Set is just a mere child of something greater.

According to Archon, Nova seeks to

- "awaken the darkest child." Who will
- "awaken his brothers" and they will
- "free their nameless father"
- "he is the darkness inside the dark. HE IS THE ABYSS
- "Those who were touched by the Abyss made three crowns so the wearers can channel the power of the dark children."

The Serpent Crown is one of three crowns that includes the Tentacle Crown. Three crowns were made to channel each child's power. The Serpent Crown channels Set's power - thus Set is the darkest child of the Abyss. There's atleast more references to this "Abyss", differentiating the character from being Set.

Furthermore, this Abyss is merely a shadow of Eternity's dreaming according to Archon. He doesn't predate the abstracts at all. Galactus predates 616 Eternity and Death. It doesn't even predate the Celestials because Archon says "since long before the Celestials and Devourer of Worlds arrived" - not long before they "came into being". In other words, this Abyss slept longer than even the Celestial and Galactus' first arrival to Earth. Being billions of years old doesn't put him older then the abstracts.

How threatening this Abyss remains to be seen. All this talk about universal threat seems hype when all the Watchers did was leave a group of Androids that, I wager, is herald level at best to wait for it's awakenning.

There's no true retconing here. Some stuff where touched but never really explained. Until it's expanded upon, this is just another vague new darkness.

GRIMNIR

Pak again?!?! roll eyes (sarcastic)

Colossus-Big C

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

The Serpent Crown is one of three crowns that includes the Tentacle Crown. Three crowns were made to channel each child's power. The Serpent Crown channels Set's power - thus Set is the darkest child of the Abyss. There's atleast more references to this "Abyss", differentiating the character from being Set.

i think the tentacle crown actually belongs to shuma gorath

753

Originally posted by zopzop
Who knows? I didn't recognize any of them. It could have just been a group of demons from limbo calling themselves "Elder Gods". they were from outside limbo though. feared even by the limbo demons

Colossus-Big C

scans of these so called "limbo elder gods"

heck even shuma gorath was called an elder god recently

dmills

@white witch,

I think he's referring to the full page spread from SA3 where the Archon gave a creation summary saying " long before the time of devours of worlds and Celestials, he (Set?) slept in darkness. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the gist of it.

zopzop

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
That's not even a retcon. It was just Hera's summarized version of the events. Essentially it was Pak trying to push Mikaboshi as the darkness before everything while never really explaining anything about established continuity.

If the Demiurge never created Gaea and the Elder Gods, who created them and who did Gaea mate with to create Atum? Earth existed before the Elder Gods and the Demiurge; they came after it's creation. Pak didn't plan it out right but essentially he meant the Earth came into being from the void along with the rest of creation. If we take it as just Gaea, then we take it as is and Gaea would precede all other Elder Gods as well as they never mention any other gods coming into being but Gaea. All this makes no sense because it's establish by previous books that Gaea had siblings and a son who all came from the Demiurge. One version of the past by Hera doesn't all of a sudden retcon away the Demiurge's role as father of the Elder Gods and Gaea's consort.

Not sure what part of any of that retcons Gaea's history. Are you referring to the part where it says Gaea gathers all her children and grandchildren to mourn the end of creation? Because she technically is the mother of a lot of them and grandmother due to being Atum's mother. Atum released the energies of the Elder Gods and birthing the second generation of gods - so yeah she's their grandmother as well. There's no mention of anything else that says the Demiurge is retcon out of existence.

Demiurge hasn't been mentioned since the Serpent Crown Saga back in 1989. I don't even think he was mentioned in Mystic Arcana or Marvel : Tarot and those were pretty in-depth concerning the Elder Gods and their origins.

It may not make sense, but that's what was on panel. Gaea, until retconned again, preceded all other Elder Gods with the exception of Set.

You should follow your own advice. The Darkest Child was imprisoned on Mars. Set's NEVER been on Mars, let alone imprisoned there. He will awaken his other brothers and they will raise their Father :
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/1079/secretavengers03015.th.jpg

No the Crowns found on Mars were created by the worshipers of the Darkest Child and "touch by the power of Abyss".
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/39/secretavengers03018.th.jpg

The cave where the Roxxon employees found the first of the three Mars Crowns :
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/58/sa020007.th.jpg

See the mural? It appears that the three crowns make up one big crown with Set's visage adoring it.

The second Mars Crown Nova found by accident and was tempted to put on:
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3373/sa020021.th.jpg

This is Worldmind speaking. Look at this scan, it seriously implies BEFORE they existed, backing up the Archon's story :
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1516/secretavengers001pg24.th.jpg

Recapping -
The "Darkest Child" was imprisoned on Mars. His ascension would open the door to his Father's return. The Crowns found on Mars were a part of a larger crown. A Serpent Crown adorned with thorns and flanked by two crowns with writhing tentacles (exactly as depicted in the underground mural).

Set's spawned MANY MANY "children" and that's who the writers were referring to.

Worth noting, Set hasn't just made Serpent Crowns, there is also the Cobra Crown from Pre-Cataclysm Lemuria/Atlantis.

WhiteWitchKing

Originally posted by zopzop

Demiurge hasn't been mentioned since the Serpent Crown Saga back in 1989. I don't even think he was mentioned in Mystic Arcana or Marvel : Tarot and those were pretty in-depth concerning the Elder Gods and their origins.

Lol, there's a lot of characters not mentioned in current comics. It doesn't mean there's a retcon.

Keep trying because there was no retcon. And there's no mention of Set along with that story Hera told either. But you're going to point to the SA to make some kind point huh?

It's not Set just yet. Since when does Set Crown's include something called a tentalce crown? Set has tentacles now? And none of his children have tentacles either. Furthermore, Set is not a universal threat at all. I could by that a new character named Abyss is a universal threat but Set? Atum shit stomped him.

No, it backs up exactly my point.

- Technology is only millions of years old. Not even older than the formation of Earth much less the universe. The Celestials came millions of years later to this system after the systems formation. So it does back Archon's assertion that this Abyss or Set's slumber pre-Celestial and Galactus' ARRIVAL.
- Galactus came into being with Death and Eternity when the big bang began. How you can try to argue that Set is older than the abstracts is beyond ludicrous, and neither is this Abyss who's merely a shadow of Eternity's dream.

There's been no retcon of anything. If this is indeed Set, it merely states that he's slumbering. It doesn't state anything regarding his origin for you to even try to justify that Set is somehow not the child of the Demiurge along with Gaea and Atum. If you want to take Gaea's story by Hera as a retcon, it does not whatsoever mention Set. The SA story doesn't even remotely connect to Hera's story so what you have is that Gaea created all the gods including Set. See the nonsense you're trying to establish?

zopzop

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Lol, there's a lot of characters not mentioned in current comics. It doesn't mean there's a retcon.

If he's not mentioned in the most recent retelling of their origins then that's a retcon by definition.

On panel it was mentioned that Gaea predates the other Gods in this universe. On panel in Secret Avengers it states Set predates this universe.

Since when is Set called a cobra, yet his worshipers created a Cobra Crown in Lemuria/Atlantis long before there was a Serpent Crown.

Check Marvel Tarot for a small list of Set's children. Some of them aren't even serpentine. They just introduced one of his new offspring is all.

Since when is Chthon a universal threat, Strange banished him. Yet Eternity thanked Pym for saving him from the threat of Chthon.

No it doesn't. Try READING the scans I so kindly uploaded. It states the Crowns were created by worshipers of the Darkest Child and touched by the Abyss. It states that the reason why the Archons came into being BILLIONS of years ago when "the stars went out and came back again" were to stop the Abyss/Set from rising.

Their arrival means their arrival IN THIS UNIVERSE otherwise how would Worldmind's "pre Celestial" tech mean anything. And millions can mean anything. What is a billion? A thousand million.

What nonsense? The stories don't have to be connected in anyway to be valid. If the writers are dropping Demiurge from the picture : he's not mentioned in Chaos War, he's not mentioned in Mystic Arcana OR Marvel : Tarot and these issues go IN DEPTH concerning the Elder Gods, and he's not mentioned in Secret Avengers what connection does Gaea, Chthon, Set and Oshtur have?

WhiteWitchKing

Originally posted by zopzop

If he's not mentioned in the most recent retelling of their origins then that's a retcon by definition.

The most recent telling is one panel long. They're going to try to fit the Demiurge along with the Elder Gods into that one huh?

Where does it say she predates the abstracts? One panel is your evidence of proof against established continuity? Only you would believe this. Even Marvel wouldn't by this nonsense. In fact, what are the chances that in one of the current books there's a line stating Galactus is the oldest being in the universe? Hmmmm...how many times has that occured and will continue to occur?

Lol. Where does it say Set? Abyss? The being that's just a shadow of Eternity's dream. For Eternity to have dreams, he would have to come into being. Galactus/Eternity/Death are all older than Set. Galan actually existed in the universe prior to the current one that Set and Gaea came from.

? That's not proof of the Tentacle Crown being linked with Set. You're just making assumptions.

It's called hyperbole. You know why it's hyperbole? Because Atum stomped both Chthon and Set by his lonesome self. Universal threat? lol. Chthon couldn't even take over Earth properly. Pym stomped him but he's some kind of threat to the universe? You're seriously hyping the Elder Gods up.

Keep reaching. So now the Elder Gods came into being before the universe did? Because that's you entire argument. Gaea and Set came into being before the universe did. But yet Set is some how just shadow of Eternity? Pure nonsense.

Millions of years means millions of years. Why **** would it mean a thousand million years? They'd just say a billion years then because they did just that when describing how old the Archon's were. The author knows the distinction between millions and billions of years old.

Lol, the Arhcon's didn't come into being. They were created by the Watchers. Galactus and Eternity existed long before the Watchers. Now you're argument is that Set existed before Eternity and Galactus came into being. Then Set went into a slumber and Eternity and Galactus arrived later when the current universe came into being.

While in slumber, the Watcher created the Archons to wait for Set's rise? You know why this is ludicrous? Because Set has already risen countless times and where were the Archons? Sounds more like this Abyss guy isn't Set.

Yeah they do. Especially when SA isn't even a telling of Set's origin anyways. It never specifies anything regarding Set's birth so how is a retcon? Does it say anywhere in SA that Set or Abyss came into being that differs from his Demiurge origins? Oh wait, it's not even an origin flash back. So how's this a retcon again? It doesn't even mention any of the Elder Gods. So by your logic, that retcons the other Elder Gods out of existence because they're not mentioned along with their father the Demiurge? Some logic.

So Brukaker dropped Chthon and the other Elder gods when he didn't mention them at all in SA right? Forget Gaea, SA is the most current book and Gaea isn't even mentioned. I guess Gaea doesn't exist because some new come out and never even mentioned her.

If what? Does any of what you're claiming tell of how the Elder gods came into being? Chaos War doesn't even touch the subject. If you mean Assault On New Olympus, that was one panel summary about Gaea that doesn't even mention any of the other gods. So I guess we're to assume that Gaea gave birth to the Elder Gods.

For beings older than the Celestials, it seemed like the Celestials and the other abstracts never regarded any of them worth noticing.

Colossus-Big C

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

Universal threat? lol. Chthon couldn't even take over Earth properly.

are you really going to ignore context? erm

it was a "chthon possesed Quicksilver" much like "ZOM strange"wallbash

he couldnt even use his power which is why he relied on manipulatung the spells mordred casted, hank pym took advantage to him because while possesing a mortal host chthon he has to say spells to create magic, so he created a machine that damage quicksilvers vocal cord ,thus chthon couldnt use any magic, (how in the world does this translate to "hank pym stomped him"?)

Merlyn (the universal gaurdian) is unable to contain chthons magic
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51954/1466424-merlyn.png
Chthon possesed quicksilver wipes the asgardians from existance
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51954/1153856-mighty_avengers_21__kryptonia_avenger__pg11.jpg
Dormammu invoking chthon
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7798/drstrangesorcerersuprem.jpg

(he creates skyfather level vegetation that was wtf pwning sentry, wonder man, wolverine, scarlet witch, and others
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51954/1153850-mighty_avengers_21__kryptonia_avenger__pg14.jpg laughing out loud

)

zopzop

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The most recent telling is one panel long. They're going to try to fit the Demiurge along with the Elder Gods into that one huh?

There IS NO DEMIURGE MENTIONED at all. Not in the retelling by Hera, not in Secret Avengers, not even in the 5 issues spanning Mystic Arcana 1-4 and culminating in Marvel : Tarot. If there was EVER a place to mention the Demiurge it'd be there. Yet he's strangely missing.

It seems Marvel is giving them each a unique origin story. The "Demiurge created them" hasn't been mentioned since 1989.

The Archon himself said "before their arrival" and "when he stars went out and came back" meaning it was before this universe. Set was already imprisoned and it was the Archons mission to keep the Darketst Child from freeing his Father and sibilings.

No I'm really not. The mural at the site of the "Tentacle Crown" was a dead give away and here is the location of the main crown in the image of Set flanked by tentacles of stone, exactly as the mural at the previous "Tentacle Crown" depicted.

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7301/secretavengers001pg25.th.jpg

Now if the Set isn't the Father in question AND he's not the Darkest Child imprisoned on Mars, why would the worshipers of the Darkest Child being "touched by Abyss" create a crown in Set's image? If Set was merely another of the Abyss' children, why would it's brother make a crown"touched by Abyss" in the image of it's brother and not it's sire?!

Eternity said it, ON PANEL. Take it up with Marvel. PS I've never seen Eternity thank Strange from saving him from Gorath.

I was merely pointing out that "millions" can mean anything. It's plural, it can mean 2 million years or XXXXX million years. This doesn't conflict with the Archon's story at all.

According to the Archon they were created when "the stars went out and came back again". Meaning after the end of a previous universe and during this one.

That's nice but this Archon and his brothers weren't made to counter Set, they were made to prevent the Darkest Child from being released from Mars! The rest of his brothers died in the struggle with the Darkest Child's followers and he was stationed near the Mars crown to prevent it's activation :
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/1083/secretavengers03019.th.jpg

Genius, according to your "logic" the Demiurge story is proven false because the Abyss is Set's father! Thanks for playing.

Even before this, during the Atlantis Attacks storyline, the Dreaming Celestial trembled and moaned at the rising of Set.

dmills

This is turning into one of the better debates that I've seen in quite some time. Good enough to consider doing a BZ perhaps? Great points by both of you guys thumb up

KuRuPT Thanosi

I think WWK is correct on this one.. there certainly was no OFFICIAL recton of any sort.

dmills

I agree. But what we do have are out of control writers just tossing all kinds of shyte out there without regard for continuity. That forces fans like us to try and sort this stuff out as best we can.

zopzop

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I think WWK is correct on this one.. there certainly was no OFFICIAL recton of any sort.

How can he be "right"?

If "Abyss" isn't Set but some other evil who is the Father of Set, the Darkest Child, and their siblings then there HAS been a retconn since it was stated that the Demiurge created Set and the other Elder Gods.

If "Abyss" is just another name for Set, then he's the one mentioned as the Father of the Darkest Child and it's siblings and he predates this reality and this again retconns the Demiurge creation story of the Elder Gods.

Either way WWK loses. There's been a retcon.

WhiteWitchKing

Originally posted by zopzop

There IS NO DEMIURGE MENTIONED at all. Not in the retelling by Hera, not in Secret Avengers, not even in the 5 issues spanning Mystic Arcana 1-4 and culminating in Marvel : Tarot. If there was EVER a place to mention the Demiurge it'd be there. Yet he's strangely missing.

Your point is? Not mentioning someone isn't a retcon. If there was story that contradicts the Demiurge seeding Earth with the Elder Gods that would be considered a retcon. It's not the case here. One panel from Hera's short story of creation isn't a retcon either. That one panel would also suggest Gaea is older than the universe and the other abstracts which isn't the case. Go ask Pak yourself if you'd like whether Gaea is older than Galactus.

Marvel Tarot is about the users of magic, not the creation of the Elder Gods. Guess what? The Demiurge is the biosphere of the Earth - not a magic user. Your entire argument using the Tarot is pointless. You want to understand the origins of the Elder Gods you read the backups of Atlantis Attacks. You want to understand the foundations of magic you read the Tarot. You don't read the Tarot to find the creation story of the Elder Gods.

No, most writers like to tell their own version of Earth's creation. This happens every so often. The official origin story of the Elder Gods and why they regard themselves as siblings and Atum refers to Gaea as his mother is due to the backup in Atlantis Attacks. That's the official canon story and what most writers follow today. If not the care to point to another source that explain the family ties between the Elder Gods?

Lol. The Archons were created billions of years ago when the stars when out and came back again. Archon's explain how long ago it was and is of no relevance to the arrival part. The "before arrival refers to how long Abyss had slumbered before the Celestials and Galactus arrived to Earth's system.

"Since long before the Celestials and Devourer of Worlds arrived, he has slumbered...his talons reaching out ONLY as a shadow in Eternity's endless dreaming...tainting all who they touch. Those that watch set my brothers and me the task of guarding and waiting."

Billions of years ago: Archon's created ago by the Watchers as Abyss slumbers to watch over the site and await Abyss' awakening.
Millions of years ago: The Celestials arrived to Earth. (Galactus arrival was even more recent)

Hence the entire line "since long before the Celestials and Devourer of Worlds Arrived, he slumbered." Again this being is a mere shadow of Eternity's dream. If he's just a part of Eternity's dream, he isn't older than Galactus.

Because the writer is throwing out ideas without much explanations. Another of one those evil beyond evil idea. That this Abyss guy would be the father of Set and Shuma Gorath or father in the adopted sense. And that second crown found on mars may not even be connected to Set. You're the one bringing up Set in this when he's not mentioned at all. The only thing we have to go by is a crown that similar to other serpent crowns. Beast or Cap noted that the tentacle crown seems like a cousin of the serpent crown. That crown found by Nova may be related to Set's Serpent Crown but not actually be Set's crown. The claim based on it being Set's is based on it's look but not any actual narration that it is Set's crown or Set's power. That's why this book is messy. Lot of stuff thrown out and seems cool but is never throughly explained.

LMAO. I didn't even see Eternity bothering to cool in his foot soldiers like he did against Thanos with the IG. I didn't see him getting personally involved in that fight like he did against Dormammu. In fact, all I see is an Elder God getting punked by Pym's strategy and an teenage with an Ant Man helmet. Not a threat.

Or after a fight between cosmics. Odin has that happen in his fights. Phoenix can tap into those and cause them to go out and come back again. They were created when the stars went out and came back again. I.E. This Abyss was so powerful that the stars went out and came back again and thus why the Archons were created.

He is the reason we were created billions of years ago. He is Abyss. Those who watch created us to guard and wait for the time he will rise. They're waiting for Abyss. Apparently, they did fight the children of Abyss once before and Archon lost his brothers. But you're claiming Abyss is Set. Again, where then Archon himself if Set is the Abyss? I'll buy that his brothers didn't show up because they were destroyed. But during Atlantis Attacks, where was Archon if Set is Abyss? Oh wait letsee, maybe it's because the whole Abyss deal is not throughly thought out.

That's why the whole thing isn't taken seriously. SA has a bunch of ideas being thrown out with ambiguous references. Only you would take this story and try to spin it off as Set being older than the abstracts.

The one that was imprison and weakened by the other Celestials? That one? Tiamut was vulnerable at that point, so much so that Ghaur was able to tap into it's power. Like I said, most Elder Gods are barely acknowledged by the abstracts.

zopzop

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Your point is? Not mentioning someone isn't a retcon. If there was story that contradicts the Demiurge seeding Earth with the Elder Gods that would be considered a retcon. It's not the case here. One panel from Hera's short story of creation isn't a retcon either. That one panel would also suggest Gaea is older than the universe and the other abstracts which isn't the case. Go ask Pak yourself if you'd like whether Gaea is older than Galactus.

Marvel Tarot is about the users of magic, not the creation of the Elder Gods. Guess what? The Demiurge is the biosphere of the Earth - not a magic user. Your entire argument using the Tarot is pointless. You want to understand the origins of the Elder Gods you read the backups of Atlantis Attacks. You want to understand the foundations of magic you read the Tarot. You don't read the Tarot to find the creation story of the Elder Gods.

No, most writers like to tell their own version of Earth's creation. This happens every so often. The official origin story of the Elder Gods and why they regard themselves as siblings and Atum refers to Gaea as his mother is due to the backup in Atlantis Attacks. That's the official canon story and what most writers follow today. If not the care to point to another source that explain the family ties between the Elder Gods?

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Marvel Mystic Arcana 1-4 dealt with the Elder Gods and their items of power. If there was ANYWHERE the Demiurge would be mentioned it would be here.

Marvel Tarot wasn't about about just magic users. Peppered throughout the book were stories concerning the Elder Gods, their realms, objects of power, elemental affinity, servants, children, etc... Again NO mention of Demiurge!

After Marvel Mystic Arcana and Tarot, the relationship between the various Elders seems to be disintegrating. Chaos War with Gaea and Secret Avengers with Set are examples.

That explanation makes ZERO sense. How would that "before they arrived to the Earth's system" jibe with the fact that Nova couldn't absorb their blasts because the were "pre-Celestial" tech! The meaning was plain Abyss is BEFORE Galactus and BEFORE the Celestials. See below.

And he's not just a shadow in Eternity's dreams. Read the UPPER PORTION OF THE SCAN! "He was the beginning....." Do you really want me to repost the scan? You getting that lazy WWK?

Are you serious? If Abyss is NOT Set but Set's Father, then there's been a RETCON on Set's origin! Hello?!

Also, if Set is not Abyss, why would the Darkest Child have a crown created in the image of his brother, Set and NOT their sire, Abyss.

Good grief. How about the more LOGICAL explanation, the Archons were created at the end of the previous universe and the beginning of this one to keep watch.

Yes they were created to stop the Darkest Child from rising, then freeing his brothers, then freeing their Father. READ THE WHOLE SCAN, not just bits and pieces. And where did you read they fought the children of Abyss? It says they fought the followers of the Darkest Child who were trying to free him.

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/1083/secretavengers03019.th.jpg

He didn't show up during Atlantis Attacks because he was stationed ON MARS TO WATCH OVER THAT SPECIFIC CROWN. He even says so himself. He didn't even awaken when the "Tentacle Crown" was stolen because he was in charge of the 7 headed serpent crown with thorns that Nova stole.

And only you could be so dense and biased that you'd ignore what's on panel because it doesn't jibe with how you see things. This isn't the first time you've done this.

The Black Celestial didn't even twitch when Kang fought the Fantastic Four right outside his prison, when Kang was attempting to free him. Yet he TREMBLED at the thought of Set's arrival (Set wasn't even on Earth yet).

The abstracts don't acknowledge the Elder Gods? Well the same can be said for the Elders, they don't acknowledge the abstracts. See how that works?

rotiart

Yeah I'm just gonna go ahead and after reading the last two pages Say I'm Currently team white witch king.

zopzop

Originally posted by rotiart
Yeah I'm just gonna go ahead and after reading the last two pages Say I'm Currently team white witch king.

In what way?

His major points so far :

1) There has been no retcon in the Elder Gods origin.

2) Abyss isn't Set.

He completely FAILS on point 1. Since by his own admission, Aybss isn't Set, then Abyss is the Father of Set and the Darkest Child and his siblings, hence THERE HAS BEEN A RETCON on Set's origin. Since originally Demiurge was the creator of all the Elder Gods.

He fails on point 2 because if Set isn't Abyss, why would the Darkest Child (who IS NOT SET) create a set of 3 crowns with the "main" crown being in the image of a Serpent Crown with thorns? It's LITERALLY a Serpent Crown with some thorns protruding from it. Why would the Darkest Child, WHO IS NOT SET, create the crown in the image of his brother and not their Father? How does that make ANY sense?

WhiteWitchKing

Originally posted by zopzop

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Marvel Mystic Arcana 1-4 dealt with the Elder Gods and their items of power. If there was ANYWHERE the Demiurge would be mentioned it would be here.

So what has the Demiurge ever been linked to magic users? Mystic Arcana is about magic - it's in the title. That book doesn't even mention Atum either and so what's your point? Furthermore, the Demiurge is not an Elder God. Where would the Demiurge fit into that story? Would you care to explain if you were the writer? That story doesn't even mention the Elder Gods origin so of course it's not going to mention the Demiurge. You point is on MA is just as useless as The Tarot.

Who has ever invoked Demiurge's name for him to be put into such a book? And the Demiurge is not an Elder God.

LMAO. So how does Hoggoth, Raggaddor, Cyttorak, Munipoor, and a host of non-Elder Gods show up with sections devoted to them? And why oh why is most of it regarding magic and not the origins of the Elder Gods? You know why people are backing me up on this? Because you have no argument really, except that a character wasn't mentioned in a book that has no baring on him.

LMAO, the Nova Force isn't exactly the highest form of tech in the current universe. Being unable to absorb a blast because the tech is millions of years old just mean the tech is superior to the Nova Force/WM. You act as if Nova could absorb would a Celestial, Galactus, or even the Molecule Man can dish out because they're of this universe.

Nothing but hyperbole until proven otherwise. All new villains get hyped up; it isn't surprising since they're trying to attract readers to a new book. It's hype until this being actually does something worth. That entire line is generic as they come.

He's just Eternity's dream. And the Watchers sent a bunch of Android's who are at best herald level to wait for his rise. No one else, including the Celestials, cares.

Yes, if. Again, there's no real definitive answers yet. So no, there hasn't been a retcon. What's funny is that they could easily reveal that Abyss is also known as the Demiurge and Gaea actually ascended from Elder Demon to an actual god. Wouldn't be surprising if they did that.

Because Abyss' other child, on Mars, is another Serpent like being. Why don't you ask me how come brothers look alike or that alot of Set's children resemble him? You might as well ask me that question.

Lol. Because the Watchers came into being in the current universe. Established history states that Galactus is the only survivor of the previous universe. Even the Watchers acknowledge this. No where does it even state that the Archon's came from the previous universe, you're just making assumptions from hyperbole made by the Archons.

They fought the wearers of the three crown. Each crown channels the power of Abyss' children. They didn't fight the dark children directly, but did fight their powers channeled those crowns.

He was tasked to wait until the rise of Abyss. That's his primary goal. If Set was Abyss and rose, it wouldn't matter what Crown he was watching over. And Mars as for, that's going to stop Archon from journeying to Earth? The Watchers were definitely lazy if they didn't provide the Archons flight abilities. Then again, the Watchers were too lazy anyway to even call on Archon when Set rose in Atlantis Attacks.

Lol. Is that why most posters facepalm when they try to debate you?

Lol. So BC is going to tremble because Kang wanted to free him? Is that how most prisoners feel about being freed from prison?

That's funny considering the whole immortal business involving Death. And when Galactus ate them. Or how they teamed up with another Abstract to take on Galactus. Or when Grand Master and Death held a game with the heroes as the pawns. For ones who don't acknowledge the Abstracts, they have a funny way of interacting with them.

zopzop

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So what has the Demiurge ever been linked to magic users? Mystic Arcana is about magic - it's in the title. That book doesn't even mention Atum either and so what's your point? Furthermore, the Demiurge is not an Elder God. Where would the Demiurge fit into that story? Would you care to explain if you were the writer? That story doesn't even mention the Elder Gods origin so of course it's not going to mention the Demiurge. You point is on MA is just as useless as The Tarot.

Who has ever invoked Demiurge's name for him to be put into such a book? And the Demiurge is not an Elder God.

First of all, Demiurge supposedly CREATED the Elder Gods. Why is he noticeably absent from an entire 5 issues devoted to the Elders?

They had a section devoted to them, showing where their respective realms are located in relation to the Earth and the realms of the Elders. That's it.

Then why did the WRITER feel the need to mention it was of "pre-celestial" (pre-dating the Celestials) origin and that's why Nova couldn't absorb it? If as you say, he only meant to say it was before the Celestials appeared in Earth's system. Xanadar and the Nova Force have NOTHING to do with the Earth. There's no relation. Your "theory" makes ZERO sense.

Well the Watchers, beings who supposedly DO NOT INTERFERE, felt the need to create these androids and INTERFERE with Abyss/Set's rise. I love how you say it's hyperbole but accept the fact that Abyss/Set is mere a part of Eternity's dreaming. Your double standards are laughable.

And if he's a "new villain" then you admit you were wrong and Demiurge is NOT Set's Father and there has been a retcon?

In other words you are making sh|t up as you go along. Got it.

Actually NO he's not. Check the mural in the scans I provided, it's just a tentacled mass. Exactly like the tentacled mass that was seeping through the Martian soil before it was banished again. In one of the scans, there are images of beings fighting the Darkest Child and it's just a mass of tentacles.
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/1717/secretavengers001pg26.th.jpg http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/677/sa004008.th.jpg

They were created when the stars went out and then came back. Meaning they were created at the beginning of this current universe AFTER the destruction of the previous one.

No he was tasked to make sure the Darkest Child didn't rise and free his brothers and then their Father. Do you read the freaking scans?

He was INACTIVE until the crown he was watching was stolen by Nova. He didn't even attempt to reclaim the Tentacle Crown which was found earlier by Roxxon Corp and held by the Shadow Council on Earth.

Like?

Your ignorance is on display again. The whole point of me referencing that event is, it was mentioned on panel that when Kang was attempting to free him by battling the FF right outside his prision "he did not stir" but the mere thought of Set's arrival "caused him to tremble and moan".

WTF are you talking about here? When have the Elder Gods even cared about the abstracts or interacted with them?

WhiteWitchKing

Originally posted by zopzop

First of all, Demiurge supposedly CREATED the Elder Gods. Why is he noticeably absent from an entire 5 issues devoted to the Elders?

So where was Atum then because he's an actual Elder God? The Demiurge isn't an Elder God or magic user. How ignorant can you be?

Lmao. Realms of magic, packs between the Elder Gods who used magic. When has the Demiurge used magic or is even an Elder God?

LMAO. The WM doesn't have to be from Earth to know when the Celestials arrived on Earth and technology is older then that date. The writer is making a clear distinction that this technology on Mars could not have been from the Celestials who are often associated ancient technology i.e. Ship. That this tech is not Celestial technology, but dated before their arrival.

LMAO. Because the Watchers have NEVER ever interfered before except in this instance right? Just ask Reed and every body who's ever met a Watcher that told them they do not intervene.

The part about being Eternity's dream isn't hypberbole because it's stated before that the Celestials too were just a part of Eternity's dream. This isn't some generic/cliche line about a bad guy being omnipotent or powerful enough to end the world. There's been more claims about a being being a universal threat then being a part of Eternity's dream. For the most part, those descriptions turn out to be hypes i.e. hyperboles. This Abyss guy has done nothing. Seriously nothing at all. That he would be just a dream of Eternity isn't far fetch. And we don't have to take that literally, figuretively it just means Abyss is nothing comparable to Eternity.

Yes and no. Depending on how it's played out. If it turns out Abyss is Set's adopted father (evil nurturing evil) then no. The Demiurge would still be Set's true father.

Lmao. That something like the Demiurge turning out to be evil is not farfetched of a twist. When's the last time you picked up a comic book and not just picked up shit?

Um no, still too ambiguous by this point.

Lmao. Let's ignore entire established history where even the Watchers admit that Galactus is the sole survivor of the previous universe. Now apparently the Watchers existed in the previous univer...ah hell let's make everybody exist in the previous universe except Galactus and the other abstracts just off of mumble jumble by some android.

His task is to await the rise of Abyss. Abyss is the father. If Abyss is Set and Set rose, Archon would hunt down Set. The entire point of the Archons is to stop Abyss from rising. If stopping his children is the way to do it then that's what they do. But their directive is to await and stop the rise of Abyss. What do the sons matter if the Father arises?

?And if Set is Abyss, he would've awaken anyways as his task was to stop Abyss. Whatever crown he guards wouldn't matter if Abyss is awakened.

Galan. Cortsether.

Lol. Battling has what to do with Tiamut? And Kang isn't on the same tier as most heralds for is power to matter to BC. Set possessing a threat to an imprisoned BC sure; I buy that. Without that constraint, Tiamut would abuse Set.

Maybe if you wrote Elder Gods instead Elders. Elders of the Universe, i'm sure you heard of them.

As for the Elder Gods, both Set and Gaea seem to care when the first Celestial Host arrived. Set sent his Serpent Men to kill the wanders and have the remaining two lead them to the Celestial's ship. Heck, the Serpent Men even says "mighty beings are coming from the sky bringing gifts." Gaea shows up later and beckons the wanders to come forth to accept the Celestials gifts. The Serpent Men shows up, thinking that they too would receive these evolutionary gifts since Set had evolved their mind above the wanders. Instead, Arishem judged against them and drove them away. LMAO. For not caring about the abstracts, Set sure wanted his Serpent Men to receive these evolutionary gifts. Didn't get it tho. lol

The Deviants, Eternals, and humans (with latent mutation) came into being. The Serpent Men was driven into hiding. Guess who's ruling current Earth? And what's up with those nasty Homo Superiors and Omega Level mutants? lol. And let's not forget those Skrull Eternal and Deviants that evolved into Gods themselves. Apparently they did a better job then Set did against Atum. Well, I take that back. The mutant and omega mutant argument is enough. The whole Atum/Skrull fight was too PIS to be taken seriously.

zopzop

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So where was Atum then because he's an actual Elder God? The Demiurge isn't an Elder God or magic user. How ignorant can you be?

Lmao. Realms of magic, packs between the Elder Gods who used magic. When has the Demiurge used magic or is even an Elder God?

Demiurge SHOULD have been mentioned since that series dealt so much in depth with the Elders that they even told you what element they represent, their totems of power, their children, their realms, etc... Why wouldn't their CREATOR be there? Fail more.

Atum isn't one of the original Elder Gods. He came after their initial creation and is a product of Gaea and Demiurge. "A new kind of being", "the first of a NEW race of gods" :
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9725/silversurfera000254.th.jpg http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7279/silversurfera000255.th.jpg

OMG, do you even believe what you post anymore? The Celestials were NEVER ON Mars! You still aren't answering wtf Nova couldn't absorb their blasts because the tech was from before the Celestials arrived on Earth (story takes place on Mars by the way)? What difference would it make? Unless the tech was so alien it pre-dated the Celestials exactly like Worldmind said. Since Abyss pre-dates the Celestials exactly like the Archon said.

If the Celestials are in fact products of Eternity's dreaming, then Abyss predates them. The Archon said so himself on panel.

Individual Watchers may occasionally break their vow, but the Archon said "THOSE WHO WATCH" as in PLURAL.

The DEMIURGE hasn't been mentioned since 1989! Not in Chaos War and not in Secret Avengers and not even in the freaking most in depth account of the Elders and their background stories in Mystic Arcana 1-4 and Marvel Tarot!

Actually no, no it isn't. Aside from the murals and the freaking thing ACTUALLY rising from the Martian soil all tentacle-like, here's the Tentacle Crown :
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/4528/secretavengers001pg10.th.jpg
It was actually unfurling as the Darkest Child was being dug out.

Uhm they could have discovered the existence of the Abyss and it's background story. Same as Galactus. Since they weren't in the previous universe Galactus was in yet they know he's it's sole survivor.

Dude his JOB was to prevent the Darkest Child from rising and awakening it's brothers, and then freeing it's Father. DO YOU READ THE FREAKING SCANS?

His job was to prevent the Darkest Child from rising. His post was the 7 headed serpent crown of thorns.
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/4420/sa004028.th.jpg

Once he got that SPECIFIC crown he was off to parts unknown. The Tentacled Crown and the third Martian crown are still out there. The Tentacled Crown in possession of the Shadow Council on Earth and the third Martian crown lies buried and still undisturbed.

I used Elders before this but all of the sudden you are getting annoyed by it? Whatever.

The whole Serpent Men/Celestial thing was a ploy by Set to have his minions favored by the Celestials so they would be the supreme species on Earth (like in the time of the dinosaurs) and he'd gain a foothold on the planet again after his banishment by Atum.

PIS or not, Atum is dead. Apparently Atum was Kryptonite to renegade Earth deities but a joke vs alien pantheons.

WhiteWitchKing

Originally posted by zopzop

Demiurge SHOULD have been mentioned since that series dealt so much in depth with the Elders that they even told you what element they represent, their totems of power, their children, their realms, etc... Why wouldn't their CREATOR be there? Fail more.

Atum isn't one of the original Elder Gods. He came after their initial creation and is a product of Gaea and Demiurge. "A new kind of being", "the first of a NEW race of gods" :
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9725/silversurfera000254.th.jpg http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7279/silversurfera000255.th.jpg

Obviously the writer feels completely different from you. If their creator was mentioned, then where was their destroyer?

As for your scans, if we go by the origin story then Atum is not an Elder God but neither is the Demiurge. He's neither Elder God nor magic user, him not being mentioned in a book about magic means nothing. Furthermore, you freely reference that back up and admit that the Demiurge mated with Gaea to create Atum, a new race of gods. Hence, even you acknowledge this back up story and the Demiurge as the creator of the Elder Gods and Atum.

Lmao. I get it. You don't know what you're talking about by this point. Pre-Celestial means before Celestial. It a time reference not place reference. As for why Nova couldn't, it's because Nova Force isn't the highest tech in the universe. Already told you this. Unless you think Nova can take on absorb the Celestials power, or Galactus, or Moleculeman. How dumb can you be? You act as if the Nova Force and World Mind could absorb anything in this current universe. So him not absorbing that blast means it's tech that came from the previous universe? Lol.

Both are products of Eternity's dream so he doesn't predate any of them. Abyss doesn't definitely predate the Galactus and the other abstracts.

Oh please, interfering is interfering. And the Watchers intervene half the time.

When Galactus arrived, Utau pointed to the Ultimate Nullifier to the FF. As for Abyss, the left some androids that's herald level at best. lol

Hahaha. Only you believe your bullshit. Put up a poll and post your points. I'll counter with mine and see what other readers believe. lol

Let's get this straight:
- Billions of years ago, the Watchers created the Archons to guard Abyss.
- Billions of years later, the Watchers and Abstracts tell everybody in comics that Galactus is the sole survivor of the previous universe b/c they haven't yet discovered Abyss' background story.

Logic isn't your friend huh?

Archon: To free their nameless father.
Cap: And who is this namless father.
Archon: He is the REASON I and the other archons were created.

Do you read the scans? What's the point of guarding a crown when Abyss risen anyway? If Set is Abyss and he rose in Atlantis Attacks, where was Archon again? lol.

Y'know why? Because Set isn't Abyss. Set has already risen. He can rise again without the Serpent Crown. In fact before the crown, Set manifested on Earth using the dinosaurs without the crown. The crown isn't the end all be all of Set's access to Earth. So that taking one crown into hiding isn't hindering Set if he is Abyss. But if Archon felt that taking away that crown would prevent Abyss from coming back, then Abyss isn't Set.

So much for the Elder Gods not caring for the abstracts. Both Gaea and Set saw that the struggle of their championed species would tip due to the evolutionary gifts of the Celestials. Both were right. The Serpent Men are afterthoughts to the evolutionary superior mammals that received the gifts. Gift that gave humanity powers that rival and sometimes surpass the gods. Mad Jim Jasper, Vulcan, Sersi, Zuras, Phoenix, Ice Man, Ikaris.

Lastly, if Abyss is really Set and has technology from the previous universe that exceeds the Celestials, how come this knowledge was never passed onto his Serpent Men? The only thing Set did was increase the Serpent Men's intelligence being the Wanders and yet they still lost domination for Earth. lol

zopzop

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Obviously the writer feels completely different from you. If their creator was mentioned, then where was their destroyer?

As for your scans, if we go by the origin story then Atum is not an Elder God but neither is the Demiurge. He's neither Elder God nor magic user, him not being mentioned in a book about magic means nothing. Furthermore, you freely reference that back up and admit that the Demiurge mated with Gaea to create Atum, a new race of gods. Hence, even you acknowledge this back up story and the Demiurge as the creator of the Elder Gods and Atum.

No my deluded friend. I merely used the old 1989 info to prove to you that even before any retcons and Mystic Arcana/Tarot, Atum was not considered an Elder God. Hence why he wouldn't be mentioned in Mystic Arcana/Tarot as an Elder.

Demiurge, however, SHOULD have been mentioned at least. Since he was their creator.

PS I think I found ONE mention of Demiurge in Marvel Tarot but it could have been a typo. I'll post the scan tomorrow.

Why couldn't Nova absorb a Celestial blast. I'm mean sure he'd be fried by it, but why couldn't he absorb a miniscule percentage of it before being annihilated. He couldn't do jack vs these blasts and that's why he was avoiding them. Your explanation flies in the face of what both Worldmind and the Archon said.

Except the Archon didn't say he's a product of Eternity's dreaming. He said "he is the end and the beginning" and "his dark talons reaching out as shadow in Eternity's endless dreaming tainting all who they touch". He's not created by Eternity at all. You lied or you don't understand what you are reading.

Individual Watchers may intervene from time to time but the Archon specifically said "THOSE WHO WATCH" as in PLURAL created the Archons to guard against Abyss' rising.

Reading comprehension fail yet again. You were the one who said "how could the Watchers know anything about the Abyss if he predates this universe and the Watchers didn't come into existence till this universe was around" I merely said, IF the Watchers, who WERE NOT AROUND when Galan became Galactus in the previous universe, yet they know of his origin, why couldn't they likewise discover the existence of the Abyss over time?

No! Read the god damn scans. The Martian Archons were created to prevent the Darkest Child from rising, freeing his brothers, then freeing their father. He was stationed to watch over the 7 headed serpent crown of thorns. That's why I provided the scans where he said so EXPLICITLY.

The Archon would not know of this because the Archon was inactive ON MARS. He was activated only after Nova took the 7 headed serpent crown of thorns. He didn't even activate when the Tentacle Crown was stolen from it's burial spot on Mars. He didn't even SEEK OUT the Tentacle Crown after he got his hands on the CROWN HE WAS STATIONED OVER!

Set merely wanted his Serpent Men to reign supreme because his previous touchstone to Earth, the dinosaurs, were wiped out. Gaea wanted to let the dinosaurs die off but Set wouldn't have it and ordered the dinosaurs to wipe out the mammals. I doubt that Set was even aware what Omega Level mutants were, hell the fuggin' writers didn't even have that in mind back in the late 80s.

This story takes place 20+ years after the Serpent Crown Saga! I doubt the writers in the late 80s thought about what someone in 2010 was gonna do.

WhiteWitchKing

Originally posted by zopzop

No my deluded friend. I merely used the old 1989 info to prove to you that even before any retcons and Mystic Arcana/Tarot, Atum was not considered an Elder God. Hence why he wouldn't be mentioned in Mystic Arcana/Tarot as an Elder.

Demiurge, however, SHOULD have been mentioned at least. Since he was their creator.

PS I think I found ONE mention of Demiurge in Marvel Tarot but it could have been a typo. I'll post the scan tomorrow.

Lmao. So you admit he is their creator. If he's not, then how did the Elder Gods and Atum come into being? Answer me that.

So their creator should be mentioned but not their destroyer? There isn't any retcon except for the one in your head. Leaving a character out of a story isn't a retcon.

In fact, Marvel's Encyclopedia Mythologica (July 2009) first page is on Gaea and it begins with the Demiurge as the first being on Earth and the creator of the Elder Gods and Atum's. It fully backs the original origin of the Elder Gods. Tarot was in 2007.

Head Writer: Anthony Flamini
Consulting Writers: GREG PAK & PAUL VAN LENTE from Incredible Hercules

Because Nova had a hard time shielding against Black Bolt's scream stored in power packs. A Celestial is magnitudes above Black Bolt's full might and Richard wasn't even dealing with Bolt's full might. Because Celestials have ignored Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu's combined attack. Odin kneed before the Arishem who threaten to burn their realms. You think Nova would absorb that? It took the WM atleast 70% of it's power just to hold back the Phalanx infection from consuming Nova completely. Nova having trouble absorbing some blast isn't any indication that this tech isn't from the previous universe.

The beginning and the ending part is nothing new. It's hyperbole. Ever read the Onslaught Saga? It's just hype of a villain. Are we to believe Odin is omnipotent?

His dark talons reaching out as a shadow in Eternity's dreaming. His dark talon/claws are just a shadow in Eternity's endless dream. That's how pathetic weak this being is. His hands/claws that taint all who he touches is a shadow of Eternity's dream. How does a dream have shadow? It doesn't. A shadow in a dream can occur. Eternity is the universe. The Celestials come into being as a product of Eternity's dream. This being is a mere shadow of Eternity's dream, then he is a product of Eternity like everything else in the universe.

Dude, this is getting old. Watcher's intervene all the time. This threat isn't even enough for them to get themselves involved; they left lackeys in charge.

No. The Archons were put in place billions of years ago by the Watchers. The Watchers met Reed in modern times. And from then on have stated that Galactus is the sole survivor. Every book in modern time have acknowledged Galactus as the sole survivor. How can the Watchers and the abstracts in modern time claim Galactus as the sole survivor if they knew billions of years ago that Abyss is also from the prior universe? Or are you saying the Watchers discovered this recently and went back to Mars and told the last Archon about this?

Okay, so the Archon wouldn't have activated until that specific crown was taken. So Set is Abyss and his rise in Atlantis Attack wouldn't activate the Archon because that specific crown wasn't taken. Gotcha. So Set predates the current universe and the Watchers didn't discover this until after having told everybody that Galactus is the sole survivor for the last 30-40 years. It all makes sense now. The Watchers just recently told the last Archon about this before the crown was taken in SA. UNLESS, the Watchers time traveled back billions of years ago to when they built the Archons and loaded this knowledge into them.

No, but the writers knew what mutants, devaints, and especially the Eternals were. And mutants, eternals, and deviants were still far superior to the Serpent Men back then. Set knew his gift of a more evolved brain wouldn't match up well against the meta gift the wanderers would receive. Hence why Set wanted his Serpent Men to receive that gift. When the Serpent Men fail, the Celestials gift gave men/wanderers dominance over the Serpent Men who at first were far smarter than the wanderers. Both Gaea and Set knew the Celestial's gift would tip the power for either group. The Celestials gave a gift which NEITHER Elder Gods were capable of. Hence, Set acknowledges the Celestials' power.

No, the writers laid down the foundations of Set's history in detail from his beginning all the way through to current times, even differentiating Set from the Egyptian God Seth. Brubaker's SA touches on things but never explains in detail if this being is even Set. There isn't any official retconning at all. What's current history is Earth is ruled by men while the Serpent Men are in hiding. I doubt Brubaker doesn't know Set isn't a techno wiz.