Cyttorak Vs Zeus

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Prep-Man
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/54474/1450307-zxngf_croper_ru_large.jpeg

vs

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/51363/1664739-incredible_hulks__622_022_large.jpg

CosmicComet
They are not in the same tier.

Not even close.


Cyttorak.

GRIMNIR
Cyttorak is above Elder Gods nevermind Zeus

Cyttorak FTW Happy Dance

Utrigita
And Cyttorak have done .... what exactly?

leonidas
Originally posted by Utrigita
And Cyttorak have done .... what exactly?

well, he did get beat up by juggernaut.....

cyttorak is all talk. mjollnir cancelled his enchantment. nothing that is know of suggests he is above zeus or odin. but feel free to prove me wrong someone.

Starscream M
Originally posted by leonidas
well, he did get beat up by juggernaut.....

cyttorak is all talk. mjollnir cancelled his enchantment. nothing that is know of suggests he is above zeus or odin. but feel free to prove me wrong someone. you're wrong

juggernaut > thor

therefore cyt > zeus

leonidas
Originally posted by Starscream M
you're wrong

juggernaut > thor

therefore cyt > zeus

huh? how'd you figure that. thor cancelled his ff then beat the crap out of him. the only reason he didn't finish was because of the 60 blake spell.

so, yeah--we'll disagree.

Utrigita
Originally posted by leonidas
well, he did get beat up by juggernaut.....

cyttorak is all talk. mjollnir cancelled his enchantment. nothing that is know of suggests he is above zeus or odin. but feel free to prove me wrong someone.

*proving Leonidas wrong*

done stick out tongue

Starscream M
Originally posted by leonidas
huh? how'd you figure that. thor cancelled his ff then beat the crap out of him. the only reason he didn't finish was because of the 60 blake spell.

so, yeah--we'll disagree. but how long can thor cancel out juggernaut's ff? if its time limited, juggy is still superior imo

also, was thor actually hurting juggy? also, remember that juggernaut aint the brightest bulb, so he doesn't really tap into as much as cytorrak gives him as thor into odinforce

GRIMNIR
Vishanti are wary of Cyttorak
So Cyttorak is either equal or more powerful than Vishanti
1 member of Vishanti is Oshtur and Elder God
Elder Gods>Zeus
Also I found a quote by Tom Brevoort a Marvel editor
Someone asked how powerful is Cyttorak compared to Zom and Shuman Gorath
Brevoort replied basically abstract mystical beings complex but I would place him way above Zom and likely above Shuma as well depending on circumstance

Whether or not Cyttorak is indeed more powerful than Zom or Shuma is up for debate, but Cyttorak >>>>> Zeus without doubt

leonidas
Originally posted by Starscream M
but how long can thor cancel out juggernaut's ff? if its time limited, juggy is still superior imo

also, was thor actually hurting juggy? also, remember that juggernaut aint the brightest bulb, so he doesn't really tap into as much as cytorrak gives him as thor into odinforce

how long? not sure, but again, the only reason the shield came up was because the hammer had to return or thor would revert to mortal. there was no reason to think he couldn't have cancelled it out for as long as he'd like. erm

during their h2h battle, thor basically beat juggs down. i agree juggs doesn't tap into his previously shown exotic powers, but he almost NEVER does, so i don't think we can really bring that into play here.

i'm not even saying cyttorak ISN'T greater. just saying that he has no feats whatsoever to show that he IS. aside from some writer-speak, which is notoriously difficult to take as fact.

leonidas
Originally posted by GRIMNIR
Vishanti are wary of Cyttorak
So Cyttorak is either equal or more powerful than Vishanti
1 member of Vishanti is Oshtur and Elder God
Elder Gods>Zeus
Also I found a quote by Tom Brevoort a Marvel editor
Someone asked how powerful is Cyttorak compared to Zom and Shuman Gorath
Brevoort replied basically abstract mystical beings complex but I would place him way above Zom and likely above Shuma as well depending on circumstance

Whether or not Cyttorak is indeed more powerful than Zom or Shuma is up for debate, but Cyttorak >>>>> Zeus without doubt

where was it shown the vishanti were 'wary' of cyttorak? not that it means much in terms of his relative power. we know she is likely below atum, and atum's recent depictions were less than impressive. erm

on that point though--where exactly did the idea that the elder gods were much more powerful than the current skyfathers like odin come from? i know this is a long held belief, but where has this been proven to be the case? anyone?

SasuOna
LOL leonidas what amazing logic

So because Thor creates a field which cancels all magic for 60 seconds hes above Cyttorak now? Not to mention Juggernaut was still beating his ass in that duration of time.

Blight
What Leo is trying to say is that per KMC rules there isn't enough evidence to make some bold claim about Cytorrak. At least I think that's what he's saying.

leonidas
Originally posted by SasuOna
LOL leonidas what amazing logic

So because Thor creates a field which cancels all magic for 60 seconds hes above Cyttorak now? Not to mention Juggernaut was still beating his ass in that duration of time.

lol sasuOna what amazing reading comp! eek!

first, thor didn't cancel anything--mjollnir did. what that DOES mean is that a small amount of odin's power (because odin only placed a small amount of power into the hammer) was enough to cancel out cyttorak's magic--possibly indefinitely.

and if you think juggs was beating thor during that time you REALLY have no clue what you're talking about. juggs pretty much was wtfstomped and was on the verge of being ko'd when his shield came back and saved his ruined ass. laughing out loud

does that necessarily mean a skyfather>cyttorak? as i said, no. but it is one of the only bases of comparison we have so should be mentioned.

leonidas
Originally posted by Blight
What Leo is trying to say is that per KMC rules there isn't enough evidence to make some bold claim about Cytorrak. At least I think that's what he's saying.

yep, that's pretty much it in a nutshell. and i'd love to see some further on-panel proof that makes everyone seem to feel that cyttorak and these other high-level mystics, are so far above skyfathers. not saying the proof doesn't exist, just that i'd like to see it.

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by leonidas
where was it shown the vishanti were 'wary' of cyttorak? not that it means much in terms of his relative power. we know she is likely below atum, and atum's recent depictions were less than impressive. erm

current atum jobbed like hell, also the vishanti are as powerful as Eternity so they are far more powerful than atum,

Originally posted by leonidas
on that point though--where exactly did the idea that the elder gods were much more powerful than the current skyfathers like odin come from? i know this is a long held belief, but where has this been proven to be the case? anyone?

Set made a celestial tremble

chthon has the potential to warp the universe based on eternity, not to mention asgard itself was wiped from existance using a fraction of his power

gaea gave hercules his upgrade in chaos war

GRIMNIR
Originally posted by leonidas
where was it shown the vishanti were 'wary' of cyttorak? not that it means much in terms of his relative power. we know she is likely below atum, and atum's recent depictions were less than impressive. erm

on that point though--where exactly did the idea that the elder gods were much more powerful than the current skyfathers like odin come from? i know this is a long held belief, but where has this been proven to be the case? anyone?


where did the idea that skyfathers are so powerful come from? they have been the most overpowered characters in history of comics and as a knock on effect you end up with stories where true cosmic univesal powers like Galactus are treated like crap
Main reason Zeus and Odin are considered so much more powerul than Olympians and Asgardians is because they are skyFATHERS of their pantheons.
Gaea is mother GODDESS of all the pantheons by same logic.
If you say why Zeus and Odin not more powerful than Gaea. Then why can Thor or someone else not be more powerful than Odin and Zeus?

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Utrigita
And Cyttorak have done .... what exactly?

What's your point? Even if he did nothing, Marvel hierarchy--word of God--puts him far Skyfather level. Brevoort puts him above Zom and even Shuma Gorath.

Broken the Shield of Seraphim spell--Classic Strange is completely powerless against him. The 616 is a lesser realm than his entire domain and he is unconcerned with anything that goes on there, including when Thanos had the IG.

Every Juggernaut feat is also a Cyttorak. Juggernaut with some time spent in the Crimson Cosmos was able to fight Nightmare evenly. How is Zeus going to even hurt Cyttorak when even Juggernaut couldn't be killed by being sent to Oblivion?


No. He didn't. Juggernaut punched a mere humanoid form that Cyttorak dons once in a while, Cyttorak himself is abstract and formless. Cyttorak cut off Cain's powers for that attempt at transgression anyway.

leonidas
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
current atum jobbed like hell, also the vishanti are as powerful as Eternity so they are far more powerful than atum,


bull.

crap.




cool, but where?



again, cool, but where?



hmm, now if that is true, THAT is your best point. but we still have no real idea how powerful gaea is in relation to cyttorak, so it's kinda meaningless.

Utrigita
Originally posted by CosmicComet
What's your point?

My point is that the grounds on which Cyttorak is given the win is rather farfetched because Cyttorak has done nothing of importance.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Marvel hierarchy--word of God--puts him far Skyfather level

Did this comparison happen on panel?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Brevoort puts him above Zom and even Shuma Gorath.

I assume your talking about Tom Brevoort, with the scan Colossus have presented on your mind. Let me just ask randomly into the internet, Who on earth would believe the guy if he said Terrax was above the Silver Surfer?

Secondly on what grounds are he actually giving the statement, is he familiar with the characters that are being discussed?

Colossus-Big C
all of those scans were posted on kmc .
and yes the vishanti can destroy eternity, they even summoned the LT to avoid doing so

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, now if that is true, THAT is your best point. but we still have no real idea how powerful gaea is in relation to cyttorak, so it's kinda meaningless.

From what I understood, the Gaea thing wasn't an upgrade in the power sense but more of Hercules being "enlightened". At least, that's my interpretation of it.

leonidas
Originally posted by GRIMNIR
where did the idea that skyfathers are so powerful come from?

from mythology. no expression



when marvel first began skyfathers WERE the true cosmics and odin was considered a peer of galactus. according to myth, it was skyfathers and their fathers who created the universe. doesn't get more 'cosmic'. marvel later f'd things up by continually adding to its list of ludicrous cosmics and downgrading skyfathers without any actual logical reasoning. one time odin is peer to galactus, next moment everyone is supposed to assume galactus and his ilk>>>>>>>>>>>>all skyfathers. now THAT is crap.



uh, yeah? confused



your point is..... ridiculous, to be kind. gaea IS the mother, but again, what proof that she is more powerful than odin? the title 'elder god' is simply that--status. again, it may well be true that she is more powerful, but we tend to use feats here, as opposed to simple hearsay. and i've yet to see scans that would support the idea that JUST because someone is an 'elder god' that they are NECESSARILY more powerful than someone like odin. i'm more than willing to say they are--but not based on the weak forum-speak reasoning i continually see dished out around here.

leonidas
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
From what I understood, the Gaea thing wasn't an upgrade in the power sense but more of Hercules being "enlightened". At least, that's my interpretation of it.

yeah, i was just going to look. i didn't recall gaea actually GRANTING power. i'm not exactly sure WHERE the power came from tbh. anyone else have thoughts or proof to help answer the question? erm

Colossus-Big C
i dont think anyone here is saying the title elder god makes you more powerful than odin or zeus
(although legion had to reset to universe to kill a few of the much weaker ones)

just the most powerful of them. i have pointed out the feats

DarkOdin
If i remember correctily Jugs was given Cyttorak hell in his own realm and this is the only combat showing we have on Cyttorak. So Zeus should be able to give Cyttorak hell

leonidas
Originally posted by DarkOdin
If i remember correctily Jugs was given Cyttorak hell in his own realm and this is the only combat showing we have on Cyttorak. So Zeus should be able to give Cyttorak hell

that's what i thought too then someone said that was just a human form and he's really formless or something. something else i'd like to see proof of.

for someone so uber, i've seen juggs battle him physically, the hammer cancel his spell and namor break the bands..... but we are to just ASSUME he's so far above someone like odin or zeus? confused

i'll happily concede the point. all i ask for is some PROOF. not writer-speak or regurgitated forum-speak. on-panel proof. anyone?

zopzop
Cytorakk has zero on panel feats. Zeus at least lifted a mountain and buried Typhon under it.

Zeus also handled Thor quite nicely in battle. Unless people start posting Cytorakk feats that top these, I'm going with Zeus.

GRIMNIR
If you want to get rid of One Above All, Living Tribunal all the cosmics and have Zeus as the creator of the entire universe then ok.

But Zeus is only a God as seen by humans, he is based around Earth.

Earth is not centre of the universe.

Mythology began when people had no idea of the size of universe. So they assumed that creator of the planet also created the entire universe which to them would only be the sun, planets they can see and distant visible stars.

In marvel Olympians are an Earth pantheon, ONE planet.

In the universe their are billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars and planets.

GRIMNIR
Originally posted by zopzop
Cytorakk has zero on panel feats. Zeus at least lifted a mountain and buried Typhon under it.

Zeus also handled Thor quite nicely in battle. Unless people start posting Cytorakk feats that top these, I'm going with Zeus.

What feats does Zeus have apart from beating Thor and Hulk?

What on panel feats does TOAA have?

zopzop
Originally posted by GRIMNIR
What feats does Zeus have apart from beating Thor and Hulk?

What on panel feats does TOAA have?

Dude I'm actually in agreement with you. In terms of implied power (and common sense) Cytorakk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Odin, Zeus or ANY Skyfather.

In terms of on panel feats (which is all we have to go by since they never fought each other), Zeus > Cytorakk.

zopzop
Originally posted by GRIMNIR
If you want to get rid of One Above All, Living Tribunal all the cosmics and have Zeus as the creator of the entire universe then ok.

But Zeus is only a God as seen by humans, he is based around Earth.

Earth is not centre of the universe.

Mythology began when people had no idea of the size of universe. So they assumed that creator of the planet also created the entire universe which to them would only be the sun, planets they can see and distant visible stars.

In marvel Olympians are an Earth pantheon, ONE planet.

In the universe their are billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars and planets.

BINGO!!!!!!!!

Marvel royally fxxked up with the whole "Skyfather" wanking. You are now stuck with competing creation stories each of them has to be reconciled with the others or it doesn't make any sense.

Odin claims to have created the Earth and the physical universe from Ymir's corpse. Big problem, Ymir's alive and the universe is older than either of them. Plus you got competing Skyfathers making the same claim!

Whoopsie!

Marvel almost saved itself with the whole Serpent Crown saga. The Demiurge creation story involving the Elder Gods (Set, Oshtur, Gaea, Chthon, etc) and then later the Primordial Gods (Crom, Bor, Ymir, Mitra, etc) and finally the "New" Gods (Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, etc...) actually sort of made some sense and put to rest the competing creation/origin stories.

But Marvel, being Marvel, fugged that up and now here we are.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by Utrigita
My point is that the grounds on which Cyttorak is given the win is rather farfetched because Cyttorak has done nothing of importance.


It's only farfetched if you know nothing about Cyttorak. Or Juggernaut--since with him being a subsidiary all of his feats are creditable to Cyttorak as well. And are using the conventions of battleboards to somehow bias the rest of your perception. There is more to things than feats. Portrayals are important as well.

Question; how will Zeus even hurt Cytorrak when being sent to Oblivion couldn't even kill Juggernaut?



Vishanti are scared of him. Classic Strange, far more powerful than Zeus, was completely powerless against him.

Juggernaut with some time spent in the Crimson Cosmos, was able to fight Nightmare. Who Classic Strange could not defeat and who trapped Eternity. Zom himself invoked Cyttorak's name.




It was a question that I asked Brevoort myself out of curiosity to see Cyttorak's *actual* placement and how it jibed with fan inferred tiers.

And lo and behold, Cyttorak is far more powerful than the conventions of battle boards can allow one to place him.

Your comparison with the hypothetical Surfer/Terrax answer is a faulty/idiotic one. Borderline strawman too. They have actual history together to draw from.

Cyttorak on the other hand has been in like...a dozen comics altogether. That means one cannot simply try to contradict his editorial placement with showings because there is no means to do that. It stands firm until subsequent showings prove it wrong.

With your logic, you could contend that the LT is more powerful than TOAA, as really, what has TOAA ever done? He hardly even has a proper appearance even. We can't even be sure he exists.



Oh. That's easy.

Are you somehow unfamiliar with the fact that he is the Executive Editor of Marvel? And has been working there for decades? And has been reading comics for even longer than that?

Once more; Word of (a) God. That's what Brevoort supplies here. Are you familiar with the phrase? And in the case of Cyttorak and other obscure characters, you cannot contradict editorial placements just by saying 'but they haven't done anything to be put there!' Shut up, don't be pretentious enough to believe your interpretation has more authority than actual authorities.

The proper way to deal with such a situation, is to not even make threads with obscure characters in the first place.

GRIMNIR
Originally posted by zopzop
BINGO!!!!!!!!

Marvel royally fxxked up with the whole "Skyfather" wanking. You are now stuck with competing creation stories each of them has to be reconciled with the others or it doesn't make any sense.

Odin claims to have created the Earth and the physical universe from Ymir's corpse. Big problem, Ymir's alive and the universe is older than either of them. Plus you got competing Skyfathers making the same claim!

Whoopsie!

Marvel almost saved itself with the whole Serpent Crown saga. The Demiurge creation story involving the Elder Gods (Set, Oshtur, Gaea, Chthon, etc) and then later the Primordial Gods (Crom, Bor, Ymir, Mitra, etc) and finally the "New" Gods (Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, etc...) actually sort of made some sense and put to rest the competing creation/origin stories.

But Marvel, being Marvel, fugged that up and now here we are.

Also add in the Celestials.

They created Eternals from humans and these eternals have same names and stories as the existing mythological Gods

No wonder Marvel Universe hierarchy is so confused laughing

SasuOna
Tom makes excuses for everything and he used to be the editor on Bendis' Avengers run which should tell you he doesn't care about continuity that much. So I wouldn't hold his word to such a high standard even though he is right in this case.

Nightmare would get one shotted by classic Strange and hes never ever beaten Eternity on panel. Hes either trapped him while he was KOed after fighting Dormammu or Eternity has outright stated he let himself get trapped because someone like Nightmare is nothing to him.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by leonidas
that's what i thought too then someone said that was just a human form and he's really formless or something. something else i'd like to see proof of.

How about the fact that Cyttorak has said EXACTLY that while talking to Strange whilst he had Juggernaut bound up and helpless?

Cyttorak has had at least three different appearances that I've seen thus far. And he manifests differently to different people--said on panel. Juggernaut has seen him looking like a demonic version of himself, the depiction used in the OP. And more recently, Juggernaut while hallucinating sees Cyttorak again but this time he looked like a more evil version of Dormammu.

leonidas
Originally posted by CosmicComet
How about the fact that Cyttorak has said EXACTLY that while talking to Strange whilst he had Juggernaut bound up and helpless?

Cyttorak has had at least three different appearances that I've seen thus far. And he manifests differently to different people--said on panel. Juggernaut has seen him looking like a demonic version of himself, the depiction used in the OP. And more recently, Juggernaut while hallucinating sees Cyttorak again but this time he looked like a more evil version of Dormammu.

he said it? i don't recall that. guess i could check myself. your nightmare argument re:juggs is not very strong though. nightmare has been notoriously inconsistent. nightmare had to banish hulk from is realm iirc.

and classic strange is most certainly not more powerful than zeus. with prep and loads of his artifacts he might be able to compete. but straight up? not even close. classic strange wasn't even as powerful as loki, let alone a skyfather.

CosmicComet
Classic Strange fought the Living Tribunal and did well.

Cyttorak also has Trion Juggernaut's feats under his belt.

SasuOna
Classic Strange surprised the LT thats not really a feat but considering in the same storyline the LT tried to kill Strange again and failed its more in line with him consistently defying him.

Classic Strange is most definitely above Zeus leonidas. Hes stronger then certain abstracts and can take the powers from Skyfathers. theres no reason to assume Zeus wouldn't get stomped just like all the other lords of chaos.

And Yes Juggernaut did stalemate Nightmare in his realm which would put Cttorak way above most abstracts

leonidas
Originally posted by SasuOna
Classic Strange surprised the LT thats not really a feat but considering in the same storyline the LT tried to kill Strange again and failed its more in line with him consistently defying him.

Classic Strange is most definitely above Zeus leonidas. Hes stronger then certain abstracts and can take the powers from Skyfathers. theres no reason to assume Zeus wouldn't get stomped just like all the other lords of chaos.

And Yes Juggernaut did stalemate Nightmare in his realm which would put Cttorak way above most abstracts

thing with strange is he was NOT consistently portrayed and his biggest feats come through prep--for the most part. i'll not debate strange here--who i love btw, and know very well--but would happily debate strange in a different thread. i know him well enough to say that he is certainly NOT above a skyfather.

re trion juggs-- i was wondering when that woul dbe brought up. i can say i don't really know him that well so if you want to mention some of his feats i'm willing to listen.

carver9
Omg...

The Cyttorak and Juggernaut fight wasnt physical at all, it was more of a mind link/will fight in which Juggernaut overcame. It had NOTHING to do with Juggernaut physically beating Cytorrak because Strange himself told Jugs that was impossible.

As for feats, Cytorrak doesn't even need it when all in all, he could just sit in a chair and use Jugs body and put avatars in it that mere punches was busting through reality out of thin air.

The main reason Cyttorak was trapped in the Gem from the beginning is due to the fact that he was a threat to the Universe. He reached the max limit for strength, he reach the max limit for durability, he truly became unstoppable. Nothing outside of trapping him in a gem was powerful enough to do any type of damage. He was the god of strength and durability, he reached its max... then his power source, his magic alone was overwhelming the gods that controlled each sector of the planet.

Zeus can't beat him... its debatable if Zeus could even beat an avatar of Cytorrak that was physically ripping through time and space at its weakest (a universal threat).

DarkOdin
Originally posted by zopzop
BINGO!!!!!!!!

Marvel royally fxxked up with the whole "Skyfather" wanking. You are now stuck with competing creation stories each of them has to be reconciled with the others or it doesn't make any sense.

Odin claims to have created the Earth and the physical universe from Ymir's corpse. Big problem, Ymir's alive and the universe is older than either of them. Plus you got competing Skyfathers making the same claim!

Whoopsie!

Marvel almost saved itself with the whole Serpent Crown saga. The Demiurge creation story involving the Elder Gods (Set, Oshtur, Gaea, Chthon, etc) and then later the Primordial Gods (Crom, Bor, Ymir, Mitra, etc) and finally the "New" Gods (Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, etc...) actually sort of made some sense and put to rest the competing creation/origin stories.

But Marvel, being Marvel, fugged that up and now here we are. Your confusing the myths with marvel. Big time.

zopzop
Originally posted by DarkOdin
Your confusing the myths with marvel. Big time.

Uhm that's from Marvel roll eyes (sarcastic) Dont' even get me started on Surtur/Twilight, because that's even more absurd in Marvel's cosmology.

DarkOdin
Originally posted by zopzop
Uhm that's from Marvel roll eyes (sarcastic) Dont' even get me started on Surtur/Twilight, because that's even more absurd in Marvel's cosmology. No it you. In the last 2 years they should it wasn't Odin who created the Earth. but Bor, Odin created humans , Bor created the earth thorugh the egg he planted which is linked to Galactus some how."we will find out soon in the newarc being written. You just don't jack and like to flame skyfathers and etc.... Just b/c a character is on a different tier doesn't mean a lower Tier can't beat them as there is a wide branch of of power levels within a tier.

zopzop
Originally posted by DarkOdin
No it you. In the last 2 years they should it wasn't Odin who created the Earth. but Bor, Odin created humans , Bor created the earth thorugh the egg he planted which is linked to Galactus some how."we will find out soon in the newarc being written. You just don't jack and like to flame skyfathers and etc.... Just b/c a character is on a different tier doesn't mean a lower Tier can't beat them as there is a wide branch of of power levels within a tier.

Thanks for proving my point for me! Competing creation stories from different pantheons and skyfathers!

How could Bor create the Earth when the Elder Gods, who were created by Demiurge didn't exist until AFTER the earth was formed? During that time there were NO other gods in existence. They came into life AFTER Demogorge/Atum seeded the planets biosphere with the essence of the fallen Elder Gods.

That's just one of the MANY competing stories. I'm sure Zeus and the Olympians have their own as well as Vishnu and the Vedic Gods.

All of them can't be right.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by DarkOdin
If i remember correctily Jugs was given Cyttorak hell in his own realm and this is the only combat showing we have on Cyttorak. So Zeus should be able to give Cyttorak hell

That was a mere aspect of Cyttorak. He even states he allowed Juggernaut to punch him.

DarkOdin
Originally posted by zopzop
Thanks for proving my point for me! Competing creation stories from different pantheons and skyfathers!

How could Bor create the Earth when the Elder Gods, who were created by Demiurge didn't exist until AFTER the earth was formed? During that time there were NO other gods in existence. They came into life AFTER Demogorge/Atum seeded the planets biosphere with the essence of the fallen Elder Gods.

That's just one of the MANY competing stories. I'm sure Zeus and the Olympians have their own as well as Vishnu and the Vedic Gods.

All of them can't be right. NO you still don't get it the latest version of how earth was created or the universe is the only one that counts.

GRIMNIR
Originally posted by DarkOdin
NO you still don't get it the latest version of how earth was created or the universe is the only one that counts.

what is the latest version?

SasuOna
I think the latest version is that Bor was one of the Elder Gods who created the universe. Odin did create humanity though IIRC

GRIMNIR
Originally posted by SasuOna
I think the latest version is that Bor was one of the Elder Gods who created the universe. Odin did create humanity though IIRC

In what way are Bor and Gaea connected in this story?

When it says universe are they talking about dimension of Asgard or the entire Earth 616 universe including LT, Phoenix and abstracts etc?

Colossus-Big C
bor is an elder god?

Black bolt z
What has cyttorak done that says he can beat zues?

CosmicComet
Oh look.

Its BBZ regurgitating phrases and refrains of others he's read around the forum again.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/durlaugh.gif

zopzop
Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
bor is an elder god?

Unless there's been a retcon he's a primal god like Mitra, Asura, Kali, Ymir, Crom, etc.... And he wasn't even a major one. The big four were : Crom, *Set, Mitra, Asura.

They came into being after the Elder Gods but before the New Gods (Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, etc...)


*The Elder God Set was active during the time of the primal gods.

JakeTheBank
I think Cyttorak did something once somewhere.

He wins!

DarkOdin
Originally posted by GRIMNIR
In what way are Bor and Gaea connected in this story?

When it says universe are they talking about dimension of Asgard or the entire Earth 616 universe including LT, Phoenix and abstracts etc? As of right now. Bor's world was the some sort of void kind of like where odin was trapped in. Then at some point we see odin as a child with his brothers and Bor finds and egg "galactus seed??" He plants it and creates a whole bunch of other stuff" ahve to looked back in Thor619 or 618 to be sure what so i don't say he wrong thing. Then when odin is shown as a full grown man he creats humanity and bor creates all the evil things to plague man.

Rage.Of.Olympus
According to the latest Thor series, soon after creation came into being, Bor found the World Seed and planted it. This became the World Tree or the Cosmic Axis as it's otherwise known, which set the 9 worlds into place. Fraction has some interesting ideas but such terrible execution. I liked the bit about every world leading to it's own reality/Universe.

Using the latest Thor series, Odin also created man as well as the first vampire accidentally. Those were straight up memories. No vague myth like shit involved.

Out of curiosity, has any other pantheon claimed to have created man and/or Earth? Excluding the Elder God retcon during the Thomas era.

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
According to the latest Thor series, soon after creation came into being, Bor found the World Seed and planted it. This became the World Tree or the Cosmic Axis as it's otherwise known, which set the 9 worlds into place. Fraction has some interesting ideas but such terrible execution. I liked the bit about every world leading to it's own reality/Universe.

Using the latest Thor series, Odin also created man as well as the first vampire accidentally. Those were straight up memories. No vague myth like shit involved.

Out of curiosity, has any other pantheon claimed to have created man and/or Earth? Excluding the Elder God retcon during the Thomas era.

Quick question, what year did this Bor as Creator God retcon take place in?

I'll have to look up the other pantheons and their creation stories in Marvel. This should be fun.

the ninjak
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Using the latest Thor series, Odin also created man as well as the first vampire accidentally. Those were straight up memories. No vague myth like shit involved.

I thought Cthon created the vampire race back in Conan days.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by zopzop
Quick question, what year did this Bor as Creator God retcon take place in?

I'll have to look up the other pantheons and their creation stories in Marvel. This should be fun.

Odin created man; Thor #8:
http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/1264/odincreator1.th.jpghttp://img535.imageshack.us/img535/4869/odincreator2.th.jpg

Bor drew out the seed, and planted the World Tree; Thor #619:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8550/borcreator1.th.jpghttp://img857.imageshack.us/img857/5589/borcreator2.th.jpg

World Tree explanation; Thor #616.
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/897/worldtree1.th.jpghttp://img232.imageshack.us/img232/915/worldtree2.th.jpghttp://img848.imageshack.us/img848/2286/worldtree3.th.jpg



Take those as you will.

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Bor drew out the seed, and planted the World Tree; Thor #619:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8550/borcreator1.th.jpghttp://img857.imageshack.us/img857/5589/borcreator2.th.jpg

Take those as you will.

First the Bor ones because he interests me. Did you notice the second scan?

One of the says :

Wait what?

The other guy says :

It's a myth, go with it.

Rage.Of.Olympus
I know, which is why I wasn't a 100% sold on it like the rest but Fraction's take matches up with the story. The World Seed, the tree of light, all of it's the same. There's definitely truth to it. At least some. I wager the myth comment was to leave enough ambiguity/doubt to justify different takes. That's the problem with the Asgardians. So many damn takes. I almost wish for a retcon similar to Morrison's for the New Gods.

Originally posted by the ninjak
I thought Cthon created the vampire race back in Conan days.

According to the latest take, Odin did.

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I know, which is why I wasn't a 100% sold on it like the rest but Fraction's take matches up with the story. The World Seed, the tree of light, all of it's the same. There's definitely truth to it. At least some. I wager the myth comment was to leave enough ambiguity/doubt to justify different takes.



According to the latest take, Odin did.

Incredible, so according to Marvel, Bor is the Creator God of 616 reality.

So Bor = TOAA? It seems like Odin (at least, if not the other skyfathers) really are abstract level beings.

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
According to the latest take, Odin did.

Odin created vampires? How does this take into account the fact that for the past 20+ years the formula for creating vampires or banishing them from the face of reality was found in the Darkhold?

When was this stated?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by zopzop
Incredible, so according to Marvel, Bor is the Creator God of 616 reality.

So Bor = TOAA? It seems like Odin (at least, if not the other skyfathers) really are abstract level beings.

He didn't create reality but he did draw out the World See using magic, which grew into the World Tree, the Cosmic Axis of reality soon after the dawn of creation.

Two very different things.

leonidas
Originally posted by zopzop
Odin created vampires? How does this take into account the fact that for the past 20+ years the formula for creating vampires or banishing them from the face of reality was found in the Darkhold?

When was this stated?

the whole thing is a cluster****. marvel cosmology at its best... erm

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by zopzop
Odin created vampires? How does this take into account the fact that for the past 20+ years the formula for creating vampires or banishing them from the face of reality was found in the Darkhold?

When was this stated?

He didn't create the being that would become the first vampire, but his sacrifice of blood gave it life and power. It became one of the undead and the first vampire. At least, that's how I understood it.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/5143/vampire1t.th.jpghttp://img13.imageshack.us/img13/7583/vampire2q.th.jpg

Thor #5.

zopzop
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He didn't create reality but he did draw out the World See using magic, which grew into the World Tree, the Cosmic Axis of reality soon after the dawn of creation.

Two very different things.

How is that different from creating reality? Before the World Tree, what did reality consist of? Chaos? That's what Creator Gods do, created Order from primordial Chaos.

In one of those other scans explaining the World Tree, it said each world represents it's own fully formed universe. Midgard, aka Earth 616, is the "prime" earth/universe. Bor created the 616 universe.

Rage.Of.Olympus
It's different because reality was already formed. I however assume that it was extremely chaotic and without much order. He definitely had a huge hand in the creation process, and so you could call him a creator God, but we have no idea how much of his power had to do with it. Probably little after the seed was drawn out.

mhmm I can see why you'd come to that conclusion. Still, saying he "created" it is something I'm not too comfortable with. Most people would assume he willed it into existence or something.

Whatever, we'll learn more of this in the next arc. Galactus is supposedly connected to the World Seed somehow.

WHAAM!
Originally posted by leonidas
bull.

crap.




cool, but where?



again, cool, but where?



hmm, now if that is true, THAT is your best point. but we still have no real idea how powerful gaea is in relation to cyttorak, so it's kinda meaningless. Truthfully neither has done enough to know the true extent of their powers, any outcome is supposition.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Oh look.

Its BBZ regurgitating phrases and refrains of others he's read around the forum again.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/customsmilies/durlaugh.gif erm. For one its a common question considering Cyttorak really had not done anything of note.

Just to spite you zues stomps cyttoraks ass for having no feats. That make you feel better?

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