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Juggernaut

vs

Thor (No Hammer)
Hercules (Classic, no Mace)
Ares (Marvel)
Apollo
Artemis (No weapons)
Sif
Heimdall
Tyr
Balder


No BFR

The gods win.

If it's Classic Cain, he still takes it.

Cain loses without his force field. I guess he can wear them down eventually if he does have it.

Team wins.

.

Here we go with the unsubstantiated claims that the Juggernaut can't die. Just like he can't be stopped. I love KMC.

(btw if Odin can die, so can the Juggernaut).

.

Sup, Nica?

Originally posted by bannedsock105
Odi its not an Avatar, Juggs wins since killing him wont stop from bringing him back, Heck oblivion could not keep this guy dead, how these losers will?...

Question: Can the Juggernaut be stopped?

.

.

Oblivion jobbed.

Originally posted by bannedsock105
all I know its these guys can't kill him or keep him dead, Oblivion was not able...

That's nice. Do you realize that they can't even keep Captain America or Ares dead in comics. And do you know how many times Thor has come back from the dead? I've lost count.

.

Originally posted by bannedsock105
... what's next Thor Jobbed to when his GodBlast failed to even put a Single scratch on Juggernaut?

You mean in the fight where Thor was suffering seizures the whole time, and then his weakened godblast not only stopped the Juggernaut, but actually sent him backwards....and thereby BEATING the Juggernaut? Yeah, that fight....

.

Jugernaut wins this.....hell he could one-shot some of these guys.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
You mean in the fight where Thor was suffering seizures the whole time, and then his weakened godblast not only stopped the Juggernaut, but actually sent him backwards....and thereby BEATING the Juggernaut? Yeah, that fight.... That's not what happened, Cains's forward momentum stopped and then while the two forces were matching eachother the ground below Cain shattered as a result. Cain was never pushed back.

The comic even states Cain experiences a temporary moment of vertigo.

Originally posted by Newjak


The comic even states Cain experiences a temporary moment of vertigo.

And that's relevant how? So why does Juggernaut say "It ain't possible"?

Why does the comic state he's pushed backward?

The Juggernaut fanboyism on this site is completely out of control.

Let me ask you, can Odin kill the Juggernaut?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
And that's relevant how? So why does Juggernaut say "It ain't possible"?

Why does the comic state he's pushed backward?

The Juggernaut fanboyism on this site is completely out of control.

Let me ask you, can Odin kill the Juggernaut? Maybe the same reason it says he experienced a temporary moment of vertigo

Look the comic never shows him getting pushed back.

It even describes it as a deadlock and that before the final test of which power is greater is shown the ground collapses.

That's what happened you make it sound like Cain got blasted backwards or something. Which he didn't. Thor used the godblast Cain got hit by it. Was stunned to see something do that to him even for a moment and before we see what happens next ground collapses.


As why people like his durability so much it is because it really just that good at this level. It's his main focus. It's the thing that makes him a threatening villain.

And could Odin kill Cain yeah. He's got the magic mojo to mess Cain up. BUt Odin could kill a lot of people if he wanted to

Originally posted by Newjak

Look the comic never shows him getting pushed back.


I have looked at it. Between the art and the narration its obvious to anyone that the Juggernaut got pushed back.

Originally posted by Newjak
Cain was never pushed back.

The comic even states Cain experiences a temporary moment of vertigo.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I have looked at it. Between the art and the narration its obvious to anyone that the Juggernaut got pushed back. My point was that it wasn't as bad as you make it sound. Heck from scan pushed may have meant as little as oh I halted for a moment and my head move back a little. Maybe he took a step back oh wow that is so bad considering what Thor just threw at him.

And Cain was still walking in the next panel pushing against the Godblast I'm inclined to say it didn't matter that much. Oh which was exactly what I was saying

I just find it weird that you're mad that a character has been claimed unstoppable and that you're trying so hard to discredit said comic book character. It's one thing to try and prove why a character loses. It's another to completely try to undersell and undermine a character because you don't like them.

I'm trying to make the point that there's a difference between what's actually been SHOWN on panel and hyperbole. And that's not the only time the Juggernaut's been stopped either.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I'm trying to make the point that there's a difference between what's actually been SHOWN on panel and hyperbole. And that's not the only time the Juggernaut's been stopped either. So the whole point is that you're mad people shout his famous Juggernaut line and says he wins.

And yes he has been stopped before, but generally there not normal circumstances surrounding it. It's not like it's an easy thing to do. Nor is it common place, nor is it something a weak character can pull off, nor is it something that a purely physical character has been shown to do.

It's like you're trying to argue the character isn't powerful because he has in a long history had some moments that doesn't equate to him being unbeatable. Everyone gets defeated, even high end omniverse threats get defeated doesn't make them any less powerful.

Originally posted by Newjak
So the whole point is that you're mad people shout his famous Juggernaut line and says he wins.

And yes he has been stopped before, but generally there not normal circumstances surrounding it. It's not like it's an easy thing to do. Nor is it common place, nor is it something a weak character can pull off, nor is it something that a purely physical character has been shown to do.

It's like you're trying to argue the character isn't powerful because he has in a long history had some moments that doesn't equate to him being unbeatable. Everyone gets defeated, even high end omniverse threats get defeated doesn't make them any less powerful.

I would hardly argue he's not powerful, but when there's people claiming he's beating Odin, that he can't be killed, that he never feels pain, that he can't be physically beaten by ANYBODY, (and yes I've seen every single on of those things claimed on this site) the only explanation is that people are placing too much weight on hyperbole.

He grunts from impact forces, but Classic Juggernaut at full power has never been hurt. He's had just about all of the mystic energy that powers him drained by D'Spayre, then had that same energy turned on him and been reduced to nothing but a skeleton. He didn't even say ouch. Oh, and he survived that because he was an engine of pure rage and mystical energy. And so far he hasn't been killed...people have tried, but it's never worked.

And he probably could tangle with Odin if he kept it hand to hand. As a Skyfather though, Odin obviously outranks him power wise.

And he's never been physically beaten by ANYBODY.

War Hulk beat him, but he was amped by enormous amounts of Celestial tech.

WWH stopped his charge when they locked up, but Jugghead was winning their test of strength when WWH used a swim move to get around him.

Etc... Never been physically beaten by anybody.

Other versions of Juggernaut don't count though.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
I would hardly argue he's not powerful, but when there's people claiming he's beating Odin, that he can't be killed, that he never feels pain, that he can't be physically beaten by ANYBODY, (and yes I've seen every single on of those things claimed on this site) the only explanation is that people are placing too much weight on hyperbole. And this is a new trend how.

Characters get that all the time. I understand wanting to set them straight but the way you come off is downright the opposite end where to you're trying to down play said character so much you're going to the other extreme.

Cain is herald level period. High end maybe not but he is at that level. And he's a lot like the Flash. He has particular niche that he excels at. Namely durability, can he take everything no but he can take a lot and like the Flash like Surfer like Superman can in fact go over his limit under the right circumstances or into areas most people would call BS on.

In his case his ability to take damage is so ridiculous it allows him to hang in situations where most other highly powerful characters couldn't. Namely he can out last say a physical encounter with Odin, not saying he could beat Odin but I do see him able to take his fair share of licks from one-eye? Yes he could cause it's his deal like I think Flash's speed would let him hang in with Odin as long as Odin isn't busting out the all powerful skyather level mojo that makes speed and durability moot.

People also thought the Hulk could hang with Zeus H2H. I don't see Juggernaut lasting very long with Odin, even H2H.

Originally posted by KingD19
WWH stopped his charge when they locked up, but Jugghead was winning their test of strength when WWH used a swim move to get around him.

WWH never stopped Juggs.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
People also thought the Hulk could hang with Zeus H2H. I don't see Juggernaut lasting very long with Odin, even H2H. Yeah but Hulk isn't know for his durability either. Hulk isn't even Superman in that area. It's no surprise that Zeus was able to damage him as much as he did, but could I see Hulk say match Zeus in a raw test of strength if he needed to be yeah. Or a better example would be I don't see Zeus outrunning Flash even though a fight between them would last all of a second if Zeus wanted it to.

Like I said circumstances. Juggernaut is known for his durability and can take a shitload more punishment then Hulk can cause of it.

Therefore you put Cain in Hulk's place in the Zeus fight. Cain may get knocked around like a pinball but he is gonna keep getting up matter because that is what he does.

Cain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hulk in durability

Although I do think Cain would be more than able to give in the strength department because he is insanely strong as well like the Hulk.

People need to stop with the "That GF blast was weakened" nonsense. No where is it stated on panel it was weakened and Thor overcame the seizures a few panels before he fired it.

Juggernaut clears this without much trouble.

^Stop being stupid.

Originally posted by Newjak
Maybe the same reason it says he experienced a temporary moment of vertigo

Look the comic never shows him getting pushed back.

It even describes it as a deadlock and that before the final test of which power is greater is shown the ground collapses.

That's what happened you make it sound like Cain got blasted backwards or something. Which he didn't. Thor used the godblast Cain got hit by it. Was stunned to see something do that to him even for a moment and before we see what happens next ground collapses.

As why people like his durability so much it is because it really just that good at this level. It's his main focus. It's the thing that makes him a threatening villain.

And could Odin kill Cain yeah. He's got the magic mojo to mess Cain up. BUt Odin could kill a lot of people if he wanted to

Read:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/WeakThorvsJuggernaut14.jpg

Cain was not only stopped, but pushed back. God Blast > Juggernaut's "I'm unstoppable" enchantment.

If Mjolnir can remove his invulnerability, I'd wager Odin could just straight up punch him into the ER, force field and all.

I think it's reasonable to say that while it was the same ability that Thor used against Galactus and the Celestial, it wasn't at the same power level.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I think it's reasonable to say that while it was the same ability that Thor used against Galactus and the Celestial, it wasn't at the same power level.

Why though? Thor was REALLY trying to humble the Juggernaut why wouldn't it be the same power level?

I checked Thor 389 because I thought when he wrapped Mjolnir with his Belt of Strength that it would amp his Godblast, but that's not why he wrapped Mjolnir in his belt, it was to fortify his hammer not amp his blast.

Originally posted by zopzop
Why though? Thor was REALLY trying to humble the Juggernaut why wouldn't it be the same power level?

I checked Thor 389 because I thought when he wrapped Mjolnir with his Belt of Strength that it would amp his Godblast, but that's not why he wrapped Mjolnir in his belt, it was to fortify his hammer not amp his blast.

If you honestly think Juggernaut's durability is greater than a Celestial or that of Galactus you just need to never talk about comics ever again.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
If you honestly think Juggernaut's durability is greater than a Celestial or that of Galactus you just need to never talk about comics ever again.

You realize even without the Godblast, Thor cracked Exitar's exoskeleton right? Has Thor ever gotten through the Juggernaut's forcefield with mere hammer blows?

A Godblast cracked Exitar's skull. Thor fired off a Godblast at Juggernaut and all he did was complain about being pushed back.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
^Stop being stupid.



Read:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/WeakThorvsJuggernaut14.jpg

Cain was not only stopped, but pushed back. God Blast > Juggernaut's "I'm unstoppable" enchantment.

If Mjolnir can remove his invulnerability, I'd wager Odin could just straight up punch him into the ER, force field and all. You know if you really want to play semantics Rage. All it says is Cain can feel himself getting pushed back not that he was getting pushed back.

And then you're also ignoring the very next panels where Cain starts pushing back against it and is no longer getting moved backwards if he was getting moved backwards at all

And yes I very much dount Odin would punch Cain into the ER based solely on a physical punch.

^Indeed. The vertigo probably explains why Juggernaut felt like he was getting pushed back.

And no, Odin couldn't do shit to Juggernaut physically.

Originally posted by Newjak
You know if you really want to play semantics Rage. All it says is Cain can feel himself getting pushed back not that he was getting pushed back.

And then you're also ignoring the very next panels where Cain starts pushing back against it and is no longer getting moved backwards if he was getting moved backwards at all

And yes I very much dount Odin would punch Cain into the ER based solely on a physical punch.

facepalm

This is not a game of semantics. This is called reading. Something that you're taught from very early on in life.

"But, even as the ever determined Juggernaut strains to regain his forward momentum--"

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/WeakThorvsJuggernaut15.jpg

Now, what does that tell us class?

(1) That Juggernaut was being pushed back (This being in doubt at all is plain stupidity by the way) and (2) that he never actually started moving forward.

If you're going to keep this up however, just say so and I won't reply.

For the record, Odin would put him in the hospital.

Thor, War Hulk, Captain Universe, Onslaught have all kicked his ass bereft of the force field. Then there's Professor Hulk, Shatterstar, the Exemplar etc. all causing him physical pain.

Juggernaut's not invulnerable. Only his fan club pretends he is.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
^Indeed. The vertigo probably explains why Juggernaut felt like he was getting pushed back.

And no, Odin couldn't do shit to Juggernaut physically.

Why do people have such difficulty reading?

"...Cain Mark experiences an unaccustomed moment of vertigo and total disbelief--as he unexpectedly feels himself being pushed back."

Juggernaut experienced an uncustomed moment of vertigo and disbelief because he was being pushed back.

Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by zopzop
Why though? Thor was REALLY trying to humble the Juggernaut why wouldn't it be the same power level?

I checked Thor 389 because I thought when he wrapped Mjolnir with his Belt of Strength that it would amp his Godblast, but that's not why he wrapped Mjolnir in his belt, it was to fortify his hammer not amp his blast.

You just answered your own question.

rage, juggernaut is invincible. the few instances where he was hurt are inconsistent and most likely PIS or just Cain still mentally thinking of the pain than actually feeling it.

odin could bfr juggy but he cannot ko juggy and would lose if he went melee.

Originally posted by Starscream M
rage, juggernaut is invincible. the few instances where he was hurt are inconsistent and most likely PIS or just Cain still mentally thinking of the pain than actually feeling it.

odin could bfr juggy but he cannot ko juggy and would lose if he went melee.

Not really. Once you reach High Herald levels and up, he needs his force field. Seeing as how I can name like a dozen instances where his been affected and/or harmed by physical force, I doubt it's PIS. Seriously, the dude has outright attributed his force field to his invulnerability as far back as the late 60's. Heck, it was protecting him in his first appearance. Simply put, Juggernaut's invulnerability coming from his force field is what makes sense based on the large majority of his appearances.

I've seen Cain indulging in human acts like eating, drinking etc. but that's mostly out of pleasure from what I understand. Juggernaut seems to be fully aware of his capabilities and powers. He understands that his invincible and unstoppable for most intents and purposes. The argument that he still perceives himself as vulnerable to forces which he isn't is not something that's going to fly from what I've seen.

pre-onslaught saga, juggernaut was the impodiment of invulnerability

onslaught phucked him up and he's been going downhill ever since

^Bullshit.

Here's a list I've compiled:
- He was hurt by Storm and Spider-Woman's electrical attack.
- Staggered by an impact with a wind tunnel fan.
- Hurt when Nightcrawler threw a torch in his face.
- Beaten down by Thor.
- Beaten down by War Hulk.
- Brought to his knees by the Professor Hulk.
- Had his eye plucked out by Shatterstar.
- Hurt by the Exemplar Weapon's Master.
- Owned by Onslaught.
- Screamed in pain from a set of kitchen knives dropped by Deadpool (Lawlz).
- Hurt by a blow from Green Scar (Post regaining of power).
- Owned by Captain Universe.

That's a pretty long list for someone who is apparently completely invulnerable. Seriously, the dude outright attributed it to his force field in his earliest appearances:
http://i47.tinypic.com/35c4m5f.jpg

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
^Bullshit.

Here's a list I've compiled:
- He was hurt by Storm and Spider-Woman's electrical attack.
- Staggered by an impact with a wind tunnel fan.
- Hurt when Nightcrawler threw a torch in his face.
- Beaten down by Thor.
- Beaten down by War Hulk.
- Brought to his knees by the Professor Hulk.
- Had his eye plucked out by Shatterstar.
- Hurt by the Exemplar Weapon's Master.
- Owned by Onslaught.
- Hurt by a blow from Green Scar (Post regaining of power).
- Owned by Captain Universe.

That's a pretty long list for someone who is apparently completely invulnerable. are all of those actual sustained injuries? I'm sure the list is much smaller when you account how many times Juggy has ever actually showed physical injury...ie blood, gash, bruise, etc

Originally posted by Starscream M
are all of those actual sustained injuries? I'm sure the list is much smaller when you account how many times Juggy has ever actually showed physical injury...ie blood, gash, bruise, etc

He was clearly harmed in all of them.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

That's a pretty long list for someone who is apparently completely invulnerable. Seriously, the dude outright attributed it to his force field in his earliest appearances:
http://i47.tinypic.com/35c4m5f.jpg rage, you might do well to learn reading comprehension yourself

juggy says his ff makes him unstoppable...not that the ff is what makes him invincible.

not sure how you can interpret it any other way than that the only purpose of ff is to make him completely unmovable and unstoppable.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He was clearly harmed in all of them. did he sustain physical injury?

simply saying 'ow' doesn't mean one is injured.

Originally posted by Starscream M
rage, you might do well to learn reading comprehension yourself

juggy says his ff makes him unstoppable...not that the ff is what makes him invincible.

not sure how you can interpret it any other way than that the only purpose of ff is to make him completely unmovable and unstoppable.

Read. He outright calls his force field invulnerable. It also doesn't help that this dialogue took place while he was deflecting chopper blades. The meaning was quite clear.

Two more:
http://i47.tinypic.com/29uxfus.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/14wytdl.jpg

Originally posted by Starscream M
rage, you might do well to learn reading comprehension yourself

juggy says his ff makes him unstoppable...not that the ff is what makes him invincible.

not sure how you can interpret it any other way than that the only purpose of ff is to make him completely unmovable and unstoppable.

are you serious?

the scan clearly states that he's taking about his durability, as nothing could penetrate his ff.

Originally posted by Starscream M
did he sustain physical injury?

simply saying 'ow' doesn't mean one is injured.

He wasn't bleeding here:
http://i45.tinypic.com/mjvaci.jpg

Or here:
http://i47.tinypic.com/2qu3l8x.jpg

But it was quite clear he was hurt.

it said he screamed in pain, not that he was hurt! what the hell man? sneer

yeah, you're right, he can feel pain apparently...still weird though that those things hurt him.

I still don't consider those injuries though...so he can be hurt, but can he be damaged without the ff? that's really the question

Originally posted by -Pr-
it said he screamed in pain, not that he was hurt! what the hell man? sneer he was hurt, but my contention is that he wasn't damaged.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Read. He outright calls his force field invulnerable. It also doesn't help that this dialogue took place while he was deflecting chopper blades. The meaning was quite clear.

Two more:
http://i47.tinypic.com/29uxfus.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/14wytdl.jpg thanks for the scans...these do support your point better

although one would think an electrical fence and missles wouldn't harm juggy even without his ff. there's quite some inconsistency there.

Originally posted by -Pr-
it said he screamed in pain, not that he was hurt! what the hell man? sneer

That's a pretty infallible argument.

I concede.

Rage I'm warning you. You are picking the wrong battle if you wish to discuss this with me. I will bury in this argument why because I A) Know Juggernaut better than you ever will and B) I do have reading comprehension. Am I grammatical genius no but if I need to raise the doubt needed to overlook you're simple efforts I can do such very easily.


Now either you take my word on the fact that Cain doesn't need his forcefield for his high end durability. That while yes they're are instances that Cain can be effected that they are A) Rare and B) not without circumstances most people would be able to see.

And C) Cain was only mildly effected by Thor's Godblast a mystical/divine attack that at best moved him back a foot and at worst for you is completely being overhyped.

Or I will spend the better part of 3 or 4 massive posts demonstrating why most of what you are saying is not true or only mildly true once you take context into account.

Which I really don't want to do.

newjak, juggernaut (well, classic juggernaut) has always been one of the most underrated sold short characters on KMC

I myself have debated against rage in the past re: thor vs juggy and he just continues to lowball classic juggy for whatever reason. I doubt your posts will convince him otherwise.

Originally posted by Starscream M
thanks for the scans...these do support your point better

although one would think an electrical fence and missles wouldn't harm juggy even without his ff. there's quite some inconsistency there.

Whether or not they could harm him isn't the point.

Originally posted by Starscream M
newjak, juggernaut (well, classic juggernaut) has always been one of the most underrated sold short characters on KMC


You're being sarcastic, right?

I think Rage has clearly shown the Juggernaut can be hurt. Its absolutely asinine to think otherwise. Do you guys believe someone like the Living Tribunal can't hurt the Juggernaut?

I always took it that Juggernaut had high end durability as is, his forcefield was just what added the "invulnerable" thing to it all.

Maybe it's just me.

Originally posted by Starscream M
newjak, juggernaut (well, classic juggernaut) has always been one of the most underrated sold short characters on KMC

I myself have debated against rage in the past re: thor vs juggy and he just continues to lowball classic juggy for whatever reason. I doubt your posts will convince him otherwise. I wouldn't be out to convince him I would be out to discredit him on this matter entirely.

It's one thing to say something but to lowball another character especially from someone who represents Thor so much, another notorious character for being lowballed is imo extreme disrespect from one person to another.

Originally posted by Newjak
I wouldn't be out to convince him I would be out to discredit him on this matter entirely.

It's one thing to say something but to lowball another character especially from someone who represents Thor so much, another notorious character for being lowballed is imo extreme disrespect from one person to another.

He's not lowballing. You guys are claiming Juggernaut can't be hurt. He has shown otherwise. If Rage claimed Thor could not be hurt, you would be right to show instances that contradict that claim.

Originally posted by Starscream M
newjak, juggernaut (well, classic juggernaut) has always been one of the most underrated sold short characters on KMC

I myself have debated against rage in the past re: thor vs juggy and he just continues to lowball classic juggy for whatever reason. I doubt your posts will convince him otherwise.


Wut?Juggernaut underrated on KMC?good laugh

Originally posted by Newjak
I wouldn't be out to convince him I would be out to discredit him on this matter entirely.

It's one thing to say something but to lowball another character especially from someone who represents Thor so much, another notorious character for being lowballed is imo extreme disrespect from one person to another. well, if you think you can set the record straight on juggy's invulnerability, then please do so. juggy's become a pathetic character on this forum due in part to his recent depowerings but also due to what i believe is misinformation regarding his classic version.

Originally posted by Devron87
Wut?Juggernaut underrated on KMC?good laugh by most ppl he is quite underrated.

his classic version would toy with thor...yet ppl don't give him much respect at all.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
He's not lowballing. You guys are claiming Juggernaut can't be hurt. He has shown otherwise. If Rage claimed Thor could not be hurt, you would be right to show instances that contradict that claim. so if someone claimed flash is superfast...and I showed scans of streetlevelers tagging him, then I prove them wrong?

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
He's not lowballing. You guys are claiming Juggernaut can't be hurt. He has shown otherwise. If Rage claimed Thor could not be hurt, you would be right to show instances that contradict that claim. No you are claiming that Juggernaut could be hurt based on the most asinine showings when I've routinely told you guys that Cain deals with pain differently then your average brick. That is very definition of lowballing. It's like stating that since Flash gets tagged by a normal level person once and awhile that obvious is slow.

Originally posted by Starscream M
so if someone claimed flash is superfast...and I showed scans of streetlevelers tagging him, then I prove them wrong?

The equivalent would be if I said the Flash has never been tagged and never could be tagged.

Originally posted by Newjak
Rage I'm warning you. You are picking the wrong battle if you wish to discuss this with me. I will bury in this argument why because I A) Know Juggernaut better than you ever will and B) I do have reading comprehension. Am I grammatical genius no but if I need to raise the doubt needed to overlook you're simple efforts I can do such very easily.

Now either you take my word on the fact that Cain doesn't need his forcefield for his high end durability. That while yes they're are instances that Cain can be effected that they are A) Rare and B) not without circumstances most people would be able to see.

And C) Cain was only mildly effected by Thor's Godblast a mystical/divine attack that at best moved him back a foot and at worst for you is completely being overhyped.

Or I will spend the better part of 3 or 4 massive posts demonstrating why most of what you are saying is not true or only mildly true once you take context into account.

Which I really don't want to do.

Warning me? Lol.

Why would I take your word for it?

Listen bud, I'm not going to argue that Storm and Spider Woman are going to blast him into submission or anything so don't star worrying. I simply believe Cain should be basically invulnerable up until he reaches High Herald level force and above, in which case, he needs the force field to stay invulnerable. This is me honestly trying to be objective and fair based on what I've seen.

Cain being hurt or affected by physical force is hardly rare and I am not aware of any circumstances in the scenes I mentioned.

Still on the God Blast? I thought we settled that bit? He was being pushed back. End of story.

baka Since you're such a sporting fellow, I'll meet you half way.

Just make a brief note of the context I left out besides each point:


That way, we can make this brief and short. And there better be actual context that I'm missing and not stupid shit like it's PIS.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
The equivalent would be if I said the Flash has never been tagged and never could be tagged. well when flash is used on kmc, we do assume he wouldn't be tagged. we toss out those instances in comics where he is tagged as PIS.

So Cain got pushed back a foot or two, fact is he wasn't really hurt or even knocked down, and before he could keep going the battlefield was destroyed.

In every fight with Thor and Juggernaut...hasn't Thor won by BFR?

Originally posted by Starscream M
well, if you think you can set the record straight on juggy's invulnerability, then please do so. juggy's become a pathetic character on this forum due in part to his recent depowerings but also due to what i believe is misinformation regarding his classic version. I really shouldn't think I should have to. It's like someone trying to say Hulk isn't incredibly strong or that Superman can't take it to people outside of his power class physically. It's a point that shouldn't need to be made.

I would discuss other more theoretical aspects of characters then trying to tear them down.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris
He's not lowballing. You guys are claiming Juggernaut can't be hurt. He has shown otherwise. If Rage claimed Thor could not be hurt, you would be right to show instances that contradict that claim.

Bingo. The issue is whether Juggernaut is invulnerable without his force field, not whether he's had lower and higher end showings.

Originally posted by KingD19
So Cain got pushed back a foot or two, fact is he wasn't really hurt or even knocked down, and before he could keep going the battlefield was destroyed.

In every fight with Thor and Juggernaut...hasn't Thor won by BFR? yeah, and also juggy is usually toying with thor whereas thor is giving juggy his absolute best, so its not even really a even fight.

if juggy was serious, he would stomp thor with little effort.

Originally posted by Starscream M
well when flash is used on kmc, we do assume he wouldn't be tagged. we toss out those instances in comics where he is tagged as PIS.

No. We throw it out when it's people who have shitty speed/reflexes, or no prep.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Bingo. The issue is whether Juggernaut is invulnerable without his force field, not whether he's had lower and higher end showings. if invulnerable means not being damaged...then so far, it seems juggy is invulnerable without ff.

Originally posted by Newjak
I wouldn't be out to convince him I would be out to discredit him on this matter entirely.

It's one thing to say something but to lowball another character especially from someone who represents Thor so much, another notorious character for being lowballed is imo extreme disrespect from one person to another.

Originally posted by -Pr-
No. We throw it out when it's people who have shitty speed/reflexes, or no prep. right, that was implied. obviously he can be tagged by superfast characters.

Originally posted by Starscream M
yeah, and also juggy is usually toying with thor whereas thor is giving juggy his absolute best, so its not even really a even fight.

if juggy was serious, he would stomp thor with little effort.

facepalm

Originally posted by Starscream M
if invulnerable means not being damaged...then so far, it seems juggy is invulnerable without ff.

facepalmx2

Originally posted by Starscream M
by most ppl he is quite underrated.

his classic version would toy with thor...yet ppl don't give him much respect at all.

i'm sorry but Juggernaut equal mad respect and more on this Forum,the guy is litterally at Skyfather level on this board:stalemate Zeus,more durable than galactus,resist to the celestials are things i constently read on this board,c'mon! give him his respect but stay realist please.........

Originally posted by -Pr-
No. We throw it out when it's people who have shitty speed/reflexes, or no prep. Yeah but at the same time are you gonna argue Odin beating Flash in a footrace?

Oh, and Newjack, I'm hoping your "context" isn't obvious shit like War Hulk was an amped Hulk or Thor removed his force field when he was beating him down.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
facepalm



facepalmx2 rage, show me a scan or point to an instance where juggy was bleeding or cut or bruised

Originally posted by Devron87
i'm sorry but Juggernaut equal mad respect and more on this Forum,the guy is litterally at Skyfather level on this board:stalemate Zeus,more durable than galactus,resist to the celestials are things i constently read on this board,c'mon! give him his respect but stay realist please......... lol zeus before his recent beatdown of hulk wasn't even impressive

galactus has been hurt more than I can remember...so beating him in durability isn't that impressive

resist celestials...not sure the context of that

so I agree with 2 of the above 3 claims.

it's not claims it's things i constently read on this Forum,Juggernaut is the cyttorak picture on earth and not a mini full potential cyttorak walking on earth,also he still a empowered human with human weakness...........

Originally posted by Devron87
it's not claims it's things i constently read on this Forum,Juggernaut is the cyttorak picture on earth and not a mini full potential cyttorak walking on earth,also he still a empowered human with human weakness........... he's not a human except in the psychological aspect. for all reasons and purposes, he's a god...and not a bitchgod like ares.

Originally posted by Starscream M
right, that was implied. obviously he can be tagged by superfast characters.

Where did you imply it? I didn't see it in your post.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah but at the same time are you gonna argue Odin beating Flash in a footrace?

wut?

If you're talking about how Odin has a zillion more powers than Flash and all that, then yeah, sure.

Originally posted by Starscream M
rage, show me a scan or point to an instance where juggy was bleeding or cut or bruised

Gimme a sec.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Where did you imply it? I didn't see it in your post.



wut?

If you're talking about how Odin has a zillion more powers than Flash and all that, then yeah, sure. I'm talking about how no one would claim Flash is going to be outrun by Odin. Yes Odin would drop Flash in a real a fight.

But he probably isn't going to win a footrace against a Flash.

I'm not saying Odin couldn't harm Cain or beat him, but I don't see him doing it in a purely physical manner with nothing but punches or kick. It would have to be through his plethora of other abilities.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Where did you imply it? I didn't see it in your post.
you're right, I didn't explicitly do so.

Originally posted by Starscream M
rage, show me a scan or point to an instance where juggy was bleeding or cut or bruised

Here you go:
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5081/cut1.th.jpg

Feral's claws are clearly drawing blood and Shatterstar's sword takes out his eye.

Shatterstar's sword is mystical in some form IIRC. I'm assuming this is common knowledge but I don't want "context" becoming an issue.

Hurry up Newjak. I have to leave soon.

Originally posted by Newjak
I'm talking about how no one would claim Flash is going to be outrun by Odin. Yes Odin would drop Flash in a real a fight.

But he probably isn't going to win a footrace against a Flash.

I'm not saying Odin couldn't harm Cain or beat him, but I don't see him doing it in a purely physical manner with nothing but punches or kick. It would have to be through his plethora of other abilities.

is that with or without the forcefield.

Originally posted by Starscream M
you're right, I didn't explicitly do so.

but if you did, it wouldn't be an implication.

Originally posted by Starscream M
pre-onslaught saga, juggernaut was the impodiment of invulnerability

onslaught phucked him up and he's been going downhill ever since

That whole onslaught ordeal was bullshit. The storyline did not even have the right Cyttorack....and Juggs acted like he had never met him before. We all know prior to that Juggs had met Cyttorack numerous times. That is the one time when the whole story was PIS. How can you be paid to write a story and not even know the previous history of the character!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Here you go:
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5081/cut1.th.jpg

Feral's claws are clearly drawing blood and Shatterstar's sword takes out his eye.

Shatterstar's sword is mystical in some form IIRC. I'm assuming this is common knowledge but I don't want "context" becoming an issue.

Hurry up Newjak. I have to leave soon. ok, thanks. I hate to pull the 'ignorant writer' card, but unless we have one or two more instances, I'm gonna have to say that was bad writing or art.

edit: feral drawing blood with claws is absolutely nonsensical.

Originally posted by -Pr-
is that with or without the forcefield.



but if you did, it wouldn't be an implication. He is as durable without it as he is with it.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Here you go:
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/5081/cut1.th.jpg

Feral's claws are clearly drawing blood and Shatterstar's sword takes out his eye.

Shatterstar's sword is mystical in some form IIRC. I'm assuming this is common knowledge but I don't want "context" becoming an issue.

Hurry up Newjak. I have to leave soon. I'm not on your schedule. I'm gonna take my time to do it right.

It's not like you're leaving KMC nor is it like you won't get a chance to look at it. You can wait.

Originally posted by Starscream M
ok, thanks. I hate to pull the 'ignorant writer' card, but unless we have one or two more instances, I'm gonna have to say that was bad writing or art.

*Sigh*

I can only do so much.

Originally posted by Newjak
I'm not on your schedule. I'm gonna take my time to do it right.

It's not like you're leaving KMC nor is it like you won't get a chance to look at it. You can wait.



Dude, it's not an essay. Point out the context I forgot and/or left out in the scenes I mentioned. Simple. Shouldn't take you more than 5 minutes.

Unfortunately, I lose interest pretty quickly. Which is why I like replying to shit before I do something else. No need to get your panties in a bunch.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
*Sigh*

I can only do so much. you don't think feral drawing blood with her claws is out of whack?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Unfortunately, I lose interest pretty quickly. Which is why I like replying to shit before I do something else. No need to get your panties in a bunch. lol...you've been trying to downplay juggy's durability for a coupla years now.

Originally posted by Starscream M
you don't think feral drawing blood with her claws is out of whack?

I don't care if -you think- it's a low showing. Juggernaut fluctuating like all characters wasn't part of the discussion. You asked me for a scene where his cut and/or bleeds. I posted such a scene.

Originally posted by Starscream M
lol...you've been trying to downplay juggy's durability for a coupla years now.

facepalm

I'm not trying to downplay anything. I don't have a vendetta against the character or something. I'm simply posting the conclusion I've come to, which is that Cain is not invulnerable without his force field. If I'm wrong, I'll concede. I don't have any actual stake in this matter. Cain is not one of my top favorite characters etc.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't care if -you think- it's a low showing. Juggernaut fluctuating wasn't part of your discussion. You asked me for a scene where his cut and/or bleeds. I posted such a scene. yes you did. I appreciate it. but you also have to use judgment to remove PIS from discussions.

you prob think it was PIS yourself, so dont be intellectually disingenuous and just pretend you have no opinion of that scan.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Cain is not one of my top favorite characters etc. oh believe me I know that.

I remember debating you re juggy vs thor and how you conducted incredible mental gymnastics to conclude that thor used a weaker godblast against cain and some such nonsense to always lowball cain.

He's not completely invulnerable. If you think otherwise, you're nothing but a troll.

Is he durable? Yes.

Is he one of the most durable Herald-level and below characters in Marvel? Yes.

But he's not f-ing invincible. That's been shown beyond a shadow of a doubt here. And besides which, if you think that Odin can't beat him into a pulp you're just being stubborn. Or if you think that the Living Tribunal or some other uber powerful being can't hurt him, you're just insane.

Originally posted by PillarofOsiris


Is he one of the most durable Herald-level and below characters in Marvel? Yes.

one of? he's the most durable herald class character by far.

Originally posted by Starscream M
yes you did. I appreciate it. but you also have to use judgment to remove PIS from discussions.

you prob think it was PIS yourself, so dont be intellectually disingenuous and just pretend you have no opinion of that scan.

My point stands.

Disingenuous? Whether or not I think it's a low showing doesn't matter. We were debating whether or not Cain can bleed. I posted evidence to show that he can. Just like previously we were debating whether Cain's invulnerability is attributed to his force field, and Cain fluctuating like all characters being irrelevant.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
My point stands.

Disingenuous? Whether or not I think it's a low showing doesn't matter. We were debating whether or not Cain can bleed. I posted evidence to show that he can. Just like previously we were debating whether Cain's invulnerability is attributed to his force field, and Cain fluctuating like all characters being irrelevant. yeah so I guess Cain without his ff is less durable than thing or colossus

Still not getting it, are you? Damn.

Originally posted by Starscream M
oh believe me I know that.

I remember debating you re juggy vs thor and how you conducted incredible mental gymnastics to conclude that thor used a weaker godblast against cain and some such nonsense to always lowball cain.



Do you really want to play this up? I guarantee you, you'll come out looking worse than I will. Noticeably so.

And lawlz at the mental gymnastics bit. Thor did use a weaker God Blast. How is that even in question? The very same writer who wrote the Juggernaut scene, also wrote the Celestial scene a couple issues earlier, where Mjolnir shattered despite having it's fortifications doubled.

Iight, I have to go now.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


And lawlz at the mental gymnastics bit. Thor did use a weaker God Blast. How is that even in question? hmmm, maybe because there is no such thing as gradations of godblast....it is something thorbags (most likely you) made up entirely on your own to 'rationalize' what you cannot accept.

Originally posted by Starscream M
one of? he's the most durable herald class character by far.

Debatable. Has he survived a blast equivalent to 50 supernovas? Superman has. (One supernova could destroy an entire solar system, not just a planet).

And with the shields he can make, Thor also has some amazing durability feats. Thor can make shields that have absorbed a blast that would have destroyed a 5th of the UNIVERSE.

And yes, I know that he used a shield, but what do you think Jugg's force fields are?

And that's not even counting guys higher than Herald, like Superboy Prime. He took a blast that destroyed an entire universe and survived.

So yes, he's ONE OF the most durable.

Originally posted by Newjak
He is as durable without it as he is with it.

Ah. Have to say I disagree, tbh. But I can understand why you'd make that argument.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Here's a list I've compiled:
1.) Staggered by an impact with a wind tunnel fan.
2.) Hurt when Nightcrawler threw a torch in his face.
3.) Beaten down by War Hulk.
4.) Brought to his knees by the Professor Hulk.
5.) Had his eye plucked out by Shatterstar.
6.) Hurt by the Exemplar Weapon's Master.
7.) Owned by Onslaught.
8.) Screamed in pain from a set of kitchen knives dropped by Deadpool (Lawlz).
9.) Hurt by a blow from Green Scar (Post regaining of power).
10.) Owned by Captain Universe.

1.) He's a 900lb man, if he gets hit by something and isn't expecting it, he can be knocked around.
2.) This most definitely is a moment of PIS or just him blowing smoke.

In one of the Deadpool instances you reference, he has a vat of liquid hot metal dumped on him and and he is just mad. In the Thor fight, Firestar heats his armor up till it is glowing white hot. During his fight with Skaar, he is comfortably waiting in lava till his feet hit the ground and even has a laugh with Skaar.

3.)War Hulk never injured him, nor did he show any pain.
4.) Again, an unexpected shot and human reaction. He literally got up from in the next panel that wasn't part of Hulk's inner-mind-fight-thing.
5.) Shatterstar's swords were forged in a dimension of magic or whatever. In short, "MAGIC"!
6.) The Exemplars were meant to be able to hurt each other. Notice how Thor couldn't do anything to Juggernaut, but these other guys could?
7.) Onslaught never owned him on panel. Marvel has stated more than once that he was, "Magnetically hurled" across those states. Onslaught being a psychic being, he could have easily affected his mind off panel. As for the gem being ripped out, that could have taken place in the mind scape due to him literally running through M.C. Escher's Relativity painting prior to Onslaught picking him up, and the gem never being in his chest.
8.) He never screamed from pain from those. If you read the next page, he is standing in the knives and says, "Clever...but they don't hurt". Plus those knives hit him in the back on his ARMOR.
9.) Again just human reaction from being hit. Hulk was once slashed in the neck by Bone Claw Wolverine. Hulk grab his neck and made your basic comic noises and one that seemed like he was having trouble breathing. Then he looked down and felt his neck and noticed it WAS NOT CUT. He was unharmed, sustained no injury, yet he had a reaction.
10.) That Captain Universe's powers were meant to affect Juggernaut. Added to that, all he really did was mind blast him as shown in the actual comic.

Also Feral's claws did not draw blood. That is the artists way of showing the downward motion she is dragging her claws against his skin. If Wolverine has failed to scratch/pierce Cains skin, do you seriously think Feral can?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


You just answered your own question.

No seriously Rage, what did I miss? He said the Belt was to fortify his hammer because of his Godblast so that it wouldn't shatter (it shattered anyway). It wasn't an amp to the Godblast :
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/3241/thor38820.th.jpg

Then when he gets ready to use the Godblast on the Juggernaut, he even says


http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/9670/thor198941216.th.jpg

Thor wasn't playing around. That was a full Godblast. Incredibly not didn't he "fall", he wasn't even hurt. The worst that happened was that his momentum was slowed and he got pushed back some. Before Juggernaut could begin to do anything more, the floor gave way. He was completely UNHURT by a blast that cracked Exitar's skull (which was harder than his exoskeleton) and drove away Galactus.