CHARACTER RULING THREAD - Suggestions

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-Pr-
All right, basically, Badabing and I are working on a "Character Ruling" thread, where certain characters will be better defined under the forum rules, and as such, should be easier to debate. It will serve to destroy misconceptions about certain characters, which can only help people.

Examples of this are things like defining Hulk's "base" level, and what "Full Confidence" Gladiator means, which Badabing and I have already decided on.

So this thread is for people to submit their own ideas. If it's a good enough idea and Badabing and I like it enough, it will end up in the thread, and will set the tone for the entire forum.

So yes, we're giving you fine people the chance to influence the forum itself. So please, post (reasonable) suggestions.

marwash22
Wally should be first on the agenda 'cause haters be hatin'.

-Pr-
A note will probably be made about Flash, yes, though you should probably add more detail stick out tongue

Starscream M
Wally should not be assumed to operate at full speed all the time and therefore basically unhittable. He should use speed as he does in MAJORITY of his showings in comics.

iceman24567
Originally posted by Starscream M
Wally should not be assumed to operate at full speed all the time and therefore basically unhittable. He should use speed as he does in MAJORITY of his showings in comics. So we should treat him like a Pis written speeding retard?

marwash22
Originally posted by Starscream M
Wally should not be assumed to operate at full speed all the time and therefore basically unhittable. He should use speed as he does in MAJORITY of his showings in comics. if that's the case, "speedblitz" needs to be removed as an option from the matches entirely 'cause if we operate on your system, it's a complete double standard. You can't in one thread say "Superman blitzes" and then say "errr, no, Flash can't blitz" in another thread... you're penalizing Wally for having a higher level of speed.

Starscream M
Originally posted by marwash22
if that's the case, "speedblitz" needs to be removed as an option from the matches entirely 'cause if we operate on your system, it's a complete double standard. You can't in one thread say "Superman blitzes" and then say "errr, no, Flash can't blitz" in another thread... you're penalizing Wally for having a higher level of speed. I think we should come up with how we should count wins

ie, I would suggest a percentage basis

ie, if I think superman speedblitzes about 20% of the fights he's in, than I still factor in speedblitz in my overall determination. BUt I don't assume he does it 100% of the time.

I think that will actually lead to more reasonable results...ie Superman can still beat a slower herald for majority, but it won't be 10/10 SPEEDBITZ COMBO STOMP!!111

So Flash can still win majority against thor or surfer, but it won't be like 'OMG he's untouchable....SPITE!"

-Pr-
Speed is most likely going to be a happy medium, ie something like: Wally won't get tagged by someone like Wolverine or Batman, but he won't be IMP'ing from the get-go either.

Omega Vision
I think for Flash it might be prudent to specify in threads whether its 'normal' Flash or 'okay enough ****ing around, lets get serious' Flash.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by -Pr-
Speed is most likely going to be a happy medium, ie something like: Wally won't get tagged by someone like Wolverine or Batman, but he won't be IMP'ing from the get-go either.
so then do feats like DS tagging flash become pis? (I think they are anyways, just wondering)

-Pr-
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
so then do feats like DS tagging flash become pis? (I think they are anyways, just wondering)

That's up for debate, but without any sort of prep or foreknowledge, then no, Deathstroke probably shouldn't see Wally coming.

Regardless though, guys, no rulings are going to be made until the thread gets a fair few responses and ideas.

Even what I just said might not be final, as Badabing and I have to discuss everything.

Existere
Paul, could we get some sort of example? I feel like this is going to miss the point without a little direction, as people are going to get caught up in disagreements rather than misconceptions.

But maybe that was the point and I'm misunderstanding.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Existere
Paul, could we get some sort of example? I feel like this is going to miss the point without a little direction, as people are going to get caught up in disagreements rather than misconceptions.

But maybe that was the point and I'm misunderstanding.

All right. So much for thinking people would understand, but...

The most obvious one is "base" Hulk; the assumption that the Hulk starts off at this mythical level before he can get angry enough to compete with the people he usually does.

That's not how he is, and it's going to be corrected, so that when someone states Savage Hulk, he's at the average portrayal of Savage Hulk from the get-go. Same with WWH, Grey Hulk, and everyone in between.

There's no base level he starts at before reaching said level.

These rulings are designed to add a more definite designation to characters, and to eliminate misconceptions.

Badabing
Flash is already in the rules. And it's very simple to follow:

Originally posted by Digi
Full Capacity
It is assumed that each contestant will fight to his/her best ability, but still within the character's personality, unless specified otherwise. That means they will use any powers at their disposal. For example, even though The Flash doesn't clock each of his own opponents in the first millisecond in his own comic, it is assumed that is a viable tactic on this board since it is a proven fact that he possesses that level of speed.
It is also assumed that the characters fight at their optimum levels of ability - not explicitly weakened or unusually powered up for those who have variable power levels.


Default forum setting bring the fight from a featureless arena. That means no collateral damage to buildings or injuries to bystanders. Not only does this let us debate the characters at full power, it takes a lot of PIS out of the matches.

Honestly, if people disagree that's too bad. We're not going to start hamstringing characters just because a few self righteous posters feel they know best. My advice is to either accept the way the rules are set or don't debate threads which conflict with your opinions of characters.

Zack Fair
Originally posted by Badabing
Flash is already in the rules. And it's very simple to follow:



Default forum setting bring the fight from a featureless arena. That means no collateral damage to buildings or injuries to bystanders. Not only does this let us debate the characters at full power, it takes a lot of PIS out of the matches.

Honestly, if people disagree that's too bad. We're not going to start hamstringing characters just because a few self righteous posters feel they know best. My advice is to either accept the way the rules are set or don't debate threads which conflict with your opinions of characters.

thumb up

Black bolt z
Would character prep fall under this thread?

Because Reed, Doom, Thanos, or banner or anyone like that, even with like 10 min prep, always seem to get an auto win.

I'm not sure what would be done about it but it just seems like a topic up for deciding something about.

JakeTheBank
I don't really have many suggestions or input aside from one, really.

It's come to my attention that certain characters, say, World War Hulk, when they are used in threads, have a great deal of feats they accomplished as a weaker incarnation, such as Savage Hulk, rendered null and void as "WWH wasn't as impressive as x feat Savage Hulk performed, therefore he's weaker" when it's clear that based on dialogue, statements from people who would know, and overall common sense that WWH - and WBH - are > stronger than your typical Hulk.

I would think that specific incarnations of characters, especially at a different power level than the norm, should still be able to access feats and abilities shown from their clearly shown/depicted to be weaker "forms" unless there's a specific reason said feat couldn't be replicated.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't really have many suggestions or input aside from one, really.

It's come to my attention that certain characters, say, World War Hulk, when they are used in threads, have a great deal of feats they accomplished as a weaker incarnation, such as Savage Hulk, rendered null and void as "WWH wasn't as impressive as x feat Savage Hulk performed, therefore he's weaker" when it's clear that based on dialogue, statements from people who would know, and overall common sense that WWH - and WBH - are > stronger than your typical Hulk.

I would think that specific incarnations of characters, especially at a different power level than the norm, should still be able to access feats and abilities shown from their clearly shown/depicted to be weaker "forms" unless there's a specific reason said feat couldn't be replicated. thumb up

-Pr-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't really have many suggestions or input aside from one, really.

It's come to my attention that certain characters, say, World War Hulk, when they are used in threads, have a great deal of feats they accomplished as a weaker incarnation, such as Savage Hulk, rendered null and void as "WWH wasn't as impressive as x feat Savage Hulk performed, therefore he's weaker" when it's clear that based on dialogue, statements from people who would know, and overall common sense that WWH - and WBH - are > stronger than your typical Hulk.

I would think that specific incarnations of characters, especially at a different power level than the norm, should still be able to access feats and abilities shown from their clearly shown/depicted to be weaker "forms" unless there's a specific reason said feat couldn't be replicated.

TBH, that's the way Bada and I actually see it as being. Maybe we'll need to further clarify it in the thread that it IS how things are done.

carver9
We need to make a tier thread basically showing speed... how fast a character can fight, how durable a person is, etc, etc...

That would eliminate a lot of confusion and would be a focul point on where we can guide someone with questions on how fast, strong this person is. Then some people see feats kind of different and if the majority see a certain feat in a certain fashion then it should hold credit.

This is all on where it comes down to. We need to follow the 3 time rule. Provide evidence that Glads can fight at light and if its a character without much history then 1 time should be enough.

Badabing
Originally posted by carver9
We need to make a tier thread basically showing speed... how fast a character can fight, how durable a person is, etc, etc...

That would eliminate a lot of confusion and would be a focul point on where we can guide someone with questions on how fast, strong this person is. Then some people see feats kind of different and if the majority see a certain feat in a certain fashion then it should hold credit.

This is all on where it comes down to. We need to follow the 3 time rule. Provide evidence that Glads can fight at light and if its a character without much history then 1 time should be enough. No and no. Now get out.

People should know the characters they debate.

quanchi112
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't really have many suggestions or input aside from one, really.

It's come to my attention that certain characters, say, World War Hulk, when they are used in threads, have a great deal of feats they accomplished as a weaker incarnation, such as Savage Hulk, rendered null and void as "WWH wasn't as impressive as x feat Savage Hulk performed, therefore he's weaker" when it's clear that based on dialogue, statements from people who would know, and overall common sense that WWH - and WBH - are > stronger than your typical Hulk.

I would think that specific incarnations of characters, especially at a different power level than the norm, should still be able to access feats and abilities shown from their clearly shown/depicted to be weaker "forms" unless there's a specific reason said feat couldn't be replicated. I don't see how anyone could disagree with this.

Also, maybe some threads could be more specific from time to time.

For instance--cbr--powerset and highest feats is all that matters.

herochat--how they appear in the comics.

kmc--somewhere in the middle.

But that aside I like people being able to make different kinds of arguments because if we stick to any set of rules to tightly that will eliminate and cut back on debate.

Existere
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't really have many suggestions or input aside from one, really.

It's come to my attention that certain characters, say, World War Hulk, when they are used in threads, have a great deal of feats they accomplished as a weaker incarnation, such as Savage Hulk, rendered null and void as "WWH wasn't as impressive as x feat Savage Hulk performed, therefore he's weaker" when it's clear that based on dialogue, statements from people who would know, and overall common sense that WWH - and WBH - are > stronger than your typical Hulk.

I would think that specific incarnations of characters, especially at a different power level than the norm, should still be able to access feats and abilities shown from their clearly shown/depicted to be weaker "forms" unless there's a specific reason said feat couldn't be replicated. I dunno, that sounds a little odd to me.

While I understand that WWH would look superior to Savage Hulk in a fist fight, because of Hulk's dynamic strength levels it becomes a little tricky to define any one Hulk as definitely superior to another.

I would argue that while WWH's "base" strength level was shown to be typically superior to that of Savage Hulks, the latter had feats beyond his base that are superior to WWH's base... when Savage Hulk was pulling off his more ridiculous feats, he didn't get a new Hulk title, but he was clearly a different beast from the Hulk that started out the fight, right? I wouldn't say that WWH at base appeared to be stronger than some of Savage Hulks more ridiculous feats, but that he was certainly stronger on average than Savage.

Maybe this is all trivial, but it feels like the Hulks are on too much of a sliding scale to apply a definite order without wiggle room.

chomperx9
Ban Thanos from all vs threads

quanchi112
Originally posted by Existere
I dunno, that sounds a little odd to me.

While I understand that WWH would look superior to Savage Hulk in a fist fight, because of Hulk's dynamic strength levels it becomes a little tricky to define any one Hulk as definitely superior to another.

I would argue that while WWH's "base" strength level was shown to be typically superior to that of Savage Hulks, the latter had feats beyond his base that are superior to WWH's base... when Savage Hulk was pulling off his more ridiculous feats, he didn't get a new Hulk title, but he was clearly a different beast from the Hulk that started out the fight, right? I wouldn't say that WWH at base appeared to be stronger than some of Savage Hulks more ridiculous feats, but that he was certainly stronger on average than Savage.

Maybe this is all trivial, but it feels like the Hulks are on too much of a sliding scale to apply a definite order without wiggle room. Do you then feel the ww hulk quickly can access that savage hulk level strength during a fight then ?

Existere
Originally posted by quanchi112
Do you then feel the ww hulk quickly can access that savage hulk level strength during a fight then ? Certainly quicker than base Savage Hulk could, yes. If that makes sense...

quanchi112
Originally posted by Existere
Certainly quicker than base Savage Hulk could, yes. If that makes sense... It does make sense since his base level is higher.

Existere
Originally posted by quanchi112
It does make sense since his base level is higher. I wasn't questioning the logic, just getting lost in the "Savage", "base", "WWH" terms.

I think we're on the same page though.

Badabing
I think we're gonna get rid of the whole "base" level thing for Hulk. It really is never shown and goes against the full capacity rule already in place. durhulk


And Carver, I was joking about staying out of this thread...for now. biscuits


stick out tongue

chomperx9
we need some kind of ruling on folks giving characters upgrades that dont exist.

-Pr-
Originally posted by chomperx9
we need some kind of ruling on folks giving characters upgrades that dont exist.

We already do. You get banned for it eventually.

JakeTheBank
Is there a similar rule for threads concerning nerfed characters?

-Pr-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Is there a similar rule for threads concerning nerfed characters?

this thread, and the reemphasizing of the CIP rule, is hopefully going to do a great deal toward minimizing that exact thing.

Unless you mean something else rather than lowballing?

King Kandy
I think it should be made clear to people that Insane Genis is fundamentally no different than any Genis afterwards with the "full capacity" rule applied. I see a lot of people trying to classify this division which actually doesn't exist.

chomperx9
Originally posted by -Pr-
We already do. You get banned for it eventually. alot of folks have been getting buy with it then.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by -Pr-
this thread, and the reemphasizing of the CIP rule, is hopefully going to do a great deal toward minimizing that exact thing.

Unless you mean something else rather than lowballing?

Ok, cool. And yeah, lowballing in general needs to stop. Marvel, DC, etc, it doesn't matter.

But I was talking about the opposite side of the spectrum in which Chomper asked. If there's a rule against making too many threads giving characters amps/upgrades/equipment/powers/etc they don't normally have, is there a similar one against making threads where said things are removed from a character? Ie, putting Superman in a match and removing his flight and speed, Thor without Mjolnir and his god powers, etc?

-Pr-
Originally posted by King Kandy
I think it should be made clear to people that Insane Genis is fundamentally no different than any Genis afterwards with the "full capacity" rule applied. I see a lot of people trying to classify this division which actually doesn't exist.

See, I'd disagree with you on that, so I'd have to talk to Badabing and see what he thinks.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Ok, cool. And yeah, lowballing in general needs to stop. Marvel, DC, etc, it doesn't matter.

But I was talking about the opposite side of the spectrum in which Chomper asked. If there's a rule against making too many threads giving characters amps/upgrades/equipment/powers/etc they don't normally have, is there a similar one against making threads where said things are removed from a character? Ie, putting Superman in a match and removing his flight and speed, Thor without Mjolnir and his god powers, etc?

Oh... Well, tbh, I've never really seen those as anything other than novelty threads. If people are that annoyed by it, I suppose we could give it a look.

JakeTheBank
I'm not annoyed with it, I was just curious if there was a ruling already made for the other side of the spectrum. Though, it does become clear when some threads are made from novelty and others are designed for baiting or for the OP to try and prove some kind of point about the characters involved.

Existere
Originally posted by King Kandy
I think it should be made clear to people that Insane Genis is fundamentally no different than any Genis afterwards with the "full capacity" rule applied. I see a lot of people trying to classify this division which actually doesn't exist.

I've heard the same argument made about Martian Manhunter/Fernus.

I don't personally agree with either.

-Pr-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm not annoyed with it, I was just curious if there was a ruling already made for the other side of the spectrum. Though, it does become clear when some threads are made from novelty and others are designed for baiting or for the OP to try and prove some kind of point about the characters involved.

Ah. I don't think there is a ruling on it, but if it is a bait thread, then I have no problem closing them assuming they're reported or I see them. That's why people reporting infractions is key...

King Kandy
Originally posted by -Pr-
See, I'd disagree with you on that, so I'd have to talk to Badabing and see what he thinks.
I think its worth discussing before we just impose a rule on it. I base my view on the many statements he made during the arc afterwards where he stated he could use certain powers, but would run the risk of becoming insane like he was before. Which to me is pretty clear that if he really needed to, he could still use those powers. And at the end where he kills his son by time travel, he mentions that "that way lies madness" but he had no other choice in the situation.

not just the fact that he's theoretically capable but the fact that he actually acknowledges that he could revert to that state at any time if he didn't care about resisting.

Existere
Originally posted by chomperx9
we need some kind of ruling on folks giving characters upgrades that dont exist. Originally posted by -Pr-
We already do. You get banned for it eventually. Originally posted by JakeTheBank
If there's a rule against making too many threads giving characters amps/upgrades/equipment/powers/etc they don't normally have, Is that what Chomper was asking?

I read it as simply that Chomper was annoyed with posters claiming that characters were more powerful due to a supposed 'upgrade' that never actually occurred.

Existere
Originally posted by King Kandy
I think its worth discussing before we just impose a rule on it. I base my view on the many statements he made during the arc afterwards where he stated he could use certain powers, but would run the risk of becoming insane like he was before. Which to me is pretty clear that if he really needed to, he could still use those powers. And at the end where he kills his son by time travel, he mentions that "that way lies madness" but he had no other choice in the situation.

not just the fact that he's theoretically capable but the fact that he actually acknowledges that he could revert to that state at any time if he didn't care about resisting. But since the Full Capacity rule doesn't overrule personality, just plot, wouldn't he still not access those powers as a non-insane Genis?

-Pr-
Originally posted by King Kandy
I think its worth discussing before we just impose a rule on it. I base my view on the many statements he made during the arc afterwards where he stated he could use certain powers, but would run the risk of becoming insane like he was before. Which to me is pretty clear that if he really needed to, he could still use those powers. And at the end where he kills his son by time travel, he mentions that "that way lies madness" but he had no other choice in the situation.

not just the fact that he's theoretically capable but the fact that he actually acknowledges that he could revert to that state at any time if he didn't care about resisting.

I honestly think it goes back to what Smurph said about J'onn and Fernus, but I am hoping to go through every point in the thread with Badabing at some point, and we won't make any declarations without discussing it at length.

Originally posted by Existere
Is that what Chomper was asking?

I read it as simply that Chomper was annoyed with posters claiming that characters were more powerful due to a supposed 'upgrade' that never actually occurred.

I thought that's what he was talking about.

King Kandy
Yeah, that's my reading too.

JakeTheBank
Ah, I read it as giving them upgrades they don't normally have, which would essentially change the character drastically to the point where it ceases being that character.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Existere
But since the Full Capacity rule doesn't overrule personality, just plot, wouldn't he still not access those powers as a non-insane Genis?
Well my point is that he does access them, when facing opponents he can't beat without them. Like his son Ely. He may be reluctant to but he is capable and willing under the right circumstances.

Existere
Originally posted by King Kandy
Well my point is that he does access them, when facing opponents he can't beat without them. Like his son Ely. He may be reluctant to but he is capable and willing under the right circumstances. Well, that's a different discussion as he doesn't automatically bridge that gap between willing to use said powers and not willing to due to the Full Capacity rule. It would be dependent on the versus match itself.

King Kandy
OK i probably just didn't express myself clearly. The point I was originally trying to make, was that people pose the division as if there was some actual depowerment that means later Genis' can't replicate his feats. Yes he wouldn't use them in all circumstances, but he CAN if it was a match that required them.

Dum Dum Dugan
Thor combat speed, what should it be at standard? Because from what I seen consistently he not near the level people try and make him out to be. His traveling speed is fast, but that seem mostly his hammer.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Thor combat speed, what should it be at standard? Because from what I seen consistently he not near the level people try and make him out to be. His traveling speed is fast, but that seem mostly his hammer.

The full capacity rule should clear that up.

chomperx9
and people also saying Surfer can still fly without the board when ive only seen it happen once. he has the thing for a reason. no im not going by the damn movie saying it gives him his powers, ive seen surfer take action without being on the board. but he does need it to travel.

Badabing
I really don't care what comes from this thread. As long as people remember that Batman wins and Hulk is the strongest, I'm good. sneer


stick out tongue

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The full capacity rule should clear that up.
no, that does not clear it up. Because my question is do we go by the outliners the very rare feats that he done few to any times, or he consistent showings.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
no, that does not clear it up. Because my question is do we go by the outliners the very rare feats that he done few to any times, or he consistent showings. When has he failed to compensate for speed ?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
no, that does not clear it up. Because my question is do we go by the outliners the very rare feats that he done few to any times, or he consistent showings.

Yes, it does. It's not PIS when he uses it, nor is it OOC. It's part of what makes Thor Thor. And it's not one off plot device power, either.

Thor, and everyone else, fights to the best of their abilities without plot or PIS.

chomperx9
I also suggest we have some back up modding for the mods that troll in the Batman and Hulk vs threads. as much as these threads get spammed and trolled every day, we dont need any additional fanboy spamming, serious wise or joke wise. the same rules should apply to everyone no matter what word is bolded under the name. If spamming is not allowed in other character threads but its allowed on the more popular character threads, than you are encouraging others to spam as well in other threads.

Like right now for example, maybe im trolling right now, why ? well because it has been allowed in other threads like mentioned above, so that gives me the right to do it here. see my point ?

I think we all can make a difference here as long as we put our minds straight on what is best for all of us equally instead of individually.

quanchi112
@Chomper

I disagree this is a community of posters who have posted together for years. I don't want this place to devolve into a stricter atmosphere.

Most of the batman wins or hulk wins are obviously jokes and should be treated as such. In other words lighten up.

I think we can all tell the difference between joking and serious posts in most cases anyways.



Added

Jokes help take the edge off.

-Pr-
Originally posted by chomperx9
I also suggest we have some back up modding for the mods that troll in the Batman and Hulk vs threads. as much as these threads get spammed and trolled every day, we dont need any additional fanboy spamming, serious wise or joke wise. the same rules should apply to everyone no matter what word is bolded under the name. If spamming is not allowed in other character threads but its allowed on the more popular character threads, than you are encouraging others to spam as well in other threads.

Like right now for example, maybe im trolling right now, why ? well because it has been allowed in other threads like mentioned above, so that gives me the right to do it here. see my point ?

I think we all can make a difference here as long as we put our minds straight on what is best for all of us equally instead of individually.

No. If someone misbehaves, you report them. Backseat modding will get you punished as much as the person committing the offence.

chomperx9
Originally posted by quanchi112
@Chomper

I disagree this is a community of posters who have posted together for years. I don't want this place to devolve into a stricter atmosphere.

Most of the batman wins or hulk wins are obviously jokes and should be treated as such. In other words lighten up.

I think we can all tell the difference between joking and serious posts in most cases anyways.



Added

Jokes help take the edge off. laughing cant believe someone bought that

quanchi112
Originally posted by chomperx9
laughing cant believe someone bought that You mean took your post seriously ?

chomperx9
Originally posted by quanchi112
You mean took your post seriously ? yeah, was just giving bada a hard time thats all big grin

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by chomperx9
laughing cant believe someone bought that

Well, this is a serious kind of discussion thread to make the forum potentially better...







































































duryes

quanchi112
Originally posted by chomperx9
yeah, was just giving bada a hard time thats all big grin It was a longer post that I don't think anyone save you saw it as a joke.

-Pr-
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, this is a serious kind of discussion thread to make the forum potentially better...







































































duryes

That, and it's not the first post like that from Chomper.

chomperx9
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, this is a serious kind of discussion thread to make the forum potentially better... well I still stand by my previous post, even if there is already a ruling on giving characters upgrades and power ups that have never happened. it gets slide by with to much.

chomperx9
Originally posted by chomperx9
well I still stand by my previous post, even if there is already a ruling on giving characters upgrades and power ups that have never happened. it gets slide by with to much. LOL that was the point. I made it look serious and realistic for a reason.

Badabing
Originally posted by chomperx9
I also suggest we have some back up modding for the mods that troll in the Batman and Hulk vs threads. as much as these threads get spammed and trolled every day, we dont need any additional fanboy spamming, serious wise or joke wise. the same rules should apply to everyone no matter what word is bolded under the name. If spamming is not allowed in other character threads but its allowed on the more popular character threads, than you are encouraging others to spam as well in other threads.

Like right now for example, maybe im trolling right now, why ? well because it has been allowed in other threads like mentioned above, so that gives me the right to do it here. see my point ?

I think we all can make a difference here as long as we put our minds straight on what is best for all of us equally instead of individually. Originally posted by chomperx9
yeah, was just giving bada a hard time thats all big grin WARNED!Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Well, this is a serious kind of discussion thread to make the forum potentially better...







































































duryes The dur is stroooooong with you.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Undurlimitedpower.png


Okay guys, let's get back to the topic. Pr put some thought into this thread and we should be mindful of that. I'm gonna have to start warning people, starting with me. embarrasment

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Badabing
The dur is stroooooong with you.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/th_Undurlimitedpower.png

DUR!!! UNLIMITED....DUR!!!! durhulk

...okay, I'm done now.

carver9
Hulk wins.

As for the thread... good posts.

Badabing
I guess it's time I contribute a bit to the thread discussion.

Hulk: WWH/current Hulk seem to be the most powerful versions. We get this from the dialogue. I don't see why prior Hulk feats wouldn't be allowed.

Prep: Unless otherwise stated, there is no prep involved in the matches. The CB vs forum rules state as much.

Speed: Characters like Flash and Superman have ridiculous speed. They have shown their speed multiple times, ways and in several titles. The full capacity rule covers their use of speed. Default forum setting bring the fight from a featureless arena. That means no collateral damage to buildings or injuries to bystanders. Not only does this let us debate the characters at full power, it takes a lot of PIS out of the matches. I don't think Flash would use the I.M.P. right at the start unless bloodlust was on.

Standard equipment: This is also covered in the rules. Think of what a character normally carries. Now imagine the characters get plucked from wherever they happen to be into the arena. Get the idea?

Insane Genis: I don't know enough about the character to make an informed opinion. But the most popular opinion around the boards is that he should be a separate character regarding threads. I made a Sentry/Void thread a while back and that seems applicable to Insane Genis. As I said, I don't know enough about the character and could be dead wrong.

Thor, Silver Surfer & combat speed: I'm not a Silver Surfer expert but do read the titles. I have never seen Surfer using super speed in combat. The most I've seen is him knocking away missiles. I've seen a few feats from Thor. These feats span years. So I'm a bit iffy on his combat speed. I would appreciate any scans to show Surfer and Thor combat speed feats. And I realize this hurts Marvel characters a lot more than DC characters. But we're not responsible for Marvel's portrayal of characters. I wish they'd show Thor fighting with his "godlike" speed more.

Character amps/upgrades: I'm not sure if we're talking about giving Batman a GL ring/Cap getting Mjolnir or attributing characters powers and equipment they don't actually have and trying to justify it as part of them. I'm okay with the first part. The second part is trolling imo and it happens way too much.

In character: Superman and Thor tend to hold back in comics, a lot. This isn't because they're stupid or forget they have an array of powers. It's mainly because when they go all out, mountains and buildings will crumble. The full capacity rule and default location take care of most of any self imposed limitations. Does it mean they'll kill right at the go? No, unless bloodlust is stated in the OP.

Sharing feats: Beta Ray Bill and Thor have similar powers. So they share some basic attacks, skills, etc. If Thor does something really exotic Mjolnir, it does not mean BRB could copy or use that feat unless he's done something similar. All GL rings can do the same things. So they share basic attacks, functions, potential, etc. If Hal does something really exotic with his ring, it doesn't mean Random GL #17 could copy or use that feat

Everyone needs to read the rules. I'm seeing too many irrelevant questions in threads about stipulations. Is there prep, does character A have item Z, how far away are they, where are they fighting, etc. Those items are all covered in the rules.

I also see to many people who may know one character in the thread but next to nothing about the opponent. If you're going to say Thor beats Superman or Batman beats Captain America, then you better know both sides of the fight. Those are close matches and I can always tell which people only read Marvel or DC when they post.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think for Flash it might be prudent to specify in threads whether its 'normal' Flash or 'okay enough ****ing around, lets get serious' Flash. Seems redundant because the forum rules explicitly state how Flash fights on the forum.

I know you're trying to make things more productive, but it shouldn't have to be explained. Especially when people argue the same tactics for Superman, Wonder Woman, Strange and the like being max potential.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Badabing
Thor, Silver Surfer & combat speed: I'm not a Silver Surfer expert but do read the titles. I have never seen Surfer using super speed in combat. The most I've seen is him knocking away missiles. I've seen a few feats from Thor. These feats span years. So I'm a bit iffy on his combat speed. I would appreciate any scans to show Surfer and Thor combat speed feats. And I realize this hurts Marvel characters a lot more than DC characters. But we're not responsible for Marvel's portrayal of characters. I wish they'd show Thor fighting with his "godlike" speed more. I suggest we make a thread where we discuss the aspect for each of the characters, with all the pro and counter arguments, at length.

TricksterPriest
The New Gods. It's high time you guys made the true form thing forum law. And I want Darkseid to get credit for crushing space/time and the multiverse in FC. The rediculous lowballing of DS and the rest of the new gods ends.

Newjak

Newjak
I personally think this one is covered but maybe some clarification could be used since it has mostly attained to speed thus far.

For me CIS and Full-Potential often seem to be brought in contrast to each other.

Thor full-potential would be too much for Hulk to handle, yet people constantly scream CIS that he would in fact fight in a manner that gives Hulk a chance.

Superman is much the same way Superman's wide breath of abilities make him too versatile for Hulk to handle but people argue that it is in character for him to try and sit there and let Hulk possibly net a few wins by not going all out at the beginning and I'm not just talking about speed.

This can be said for a number of characters.

My idea has always been that in Forum Fights we are trying to find out how characters would do against each other with them using their abilities to the best while not deviating from their core values such as not killing.

I've always felt that Thor/Green Lantern/Superman wouldn't really limit the scope of their abilities just tone them back to a level that wouldn't kill their opponents outright, or if they have a tactic such as BFR or incapacitating they could and should be allowed to use it in the beginning.

And that if we want to see more limited battles that is what stipulations are for.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Badabing
I guess it's time I contribute a bit to the thread discussion.

Thor, Silver Surfer & combat speed: I'm not a Silver Surfer expert but do read the titles. I have never seen Surfer using super speed in combat. The most I've seen is him knocking away missiles.


Issues like this are extremely contentious because they arise from different interpretations of different on panel occurences. To have some form of definitive forum ruling (not sure if thats what you are trying to do though) on them would largely take away from the discussion regarding these characters imo as on panel interpretations are fundamental tools of debating. I an tell you for certain that Silver has used superspeed i combat on multiple occassions, and there would be a large amount of reasonable people who when presented with the evidence would agree with me. Either way in such matters i think both sides of the debate are necessary when these characters are being discussed.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Newjak
Isn't that what Respect thread and Character Discussion threads are for. The respect thread is a monologue of cherry-picking and mis-interpretations, while trying to push an agenda.

No, it's not the same thing.

Newjak

Philosophía
Why would we discuss that in character discussion thread - in the comic book forum, where it's mostly story discussion related, instead of simply making a thread on the vs forum, and establishing the general consensus on what level both of them are?

I'm also not sure what you're trying to achieve here. You think that if it goes bad for Thor it would get lost in the character discussion thread and thus soon forgotten?

Starscream M
these rulings would seem to place superman and flash quite a bit above their herald peers...erm

Newjak

Philosophía
Originally posted by Newjak
And just to sum up the answer for you. There is no better place to discuss a character story/abilities/anything else you want to talk about said character then in a thread already designed for the discussion of said character. When there are two separate boards, for two specific purposes - discussing comics and discussing comic fights, with the speed discussion clearly belonging in the latter then yes, there is a 'better place' - the one designed specifically for this type of discussions.

Originally posted by Newjak
No I just don't see every time you wish to discuss a certain character's attributes and clarify them that we need make a completely new thread for them, when there is already a thread that could be used for that. This is a special case, the Thor/Surfer speed discussion is a reccurent one in the forum - so I think having two threads, out of thousands (in many of which this point was debated), specifically designed to discuss this, isn't really inappropriate. Or is it taking too much space from your screen? Tell us, so we can make you more comfortable.

This is an useless exchange. And my last post on this. I'm waiting for Raoul or Bada to come in, so that we can proceed.

Badabing
Guys, I didn't make any rulings. I went through the thread and addressed the issues I saw and added a few of my own. I just wanted to keep the topic going.

Newjak

Newjak
Originally posted by Badabing
Guys, I didn't make any rulings. I went through the thread and addressed the issues I saw and added a few of my own. I just wanted to keep the topic going. On a personal note Bada I think this entire thread is doomed to failure because you're trying to make forum wide judgments on characters which will never hold.

If you want to make any real headway in this I think the idea should be more centered on defining the character vs forum.

Starscream M
also, is the purpose of Vs forum to determine how WE think characters would perform or how WE THINK COMICS would depict characters?

ie...take flash vs thor as an example:

if we go by how WE think they would perform, perhaps a strong argument can be made that Flash wins majority quite clearly.

if we go by how WE THINK COMICS would depict a fight between the two, taking everything into consideration, it would be a much closer fight, with thor perhaps winning.

I think knowing how we frame the purpose of these threads can also help on ruling how to discuss characters

Existere
Originally posted by Starscream M
also, is the purpose of Vs forum to determine how WE think characters could perform or how WE THINK COMICS would depict characters?

ie...take flash vs thor as an example:

if we go by how WE think they could perform, perhaps a strong argument can be made that Flash wins majority quite clearly.
fixed...

Starscream M
Originally posted by Existere
fixed... that becomes almost entirely a debate of powersets then...and characterizations that have taken decades to build up become essentially null & void in debates erm

also, I would like to note that the term 'PIS' is being abused and misused way too often

these days, anything ppl don't like, it's labeled as PIS.

Existere
Originally posted by Starscream M
that becomes almost entirely a debate of powersets then...and characterizations that have taken decades to build up become essentially null & void in debates erm
I see you've noted my criticism.

JakeTheBank
Existere's got a point here. It's a slippery slope, imo. We already have had plenty of fights devolve into powersets vs. powersets to the point where character and personality don't factor into the equation. It then becomes PIS if said character doesn't use everything at their disposal when said character really doesn't use everything at their disposal to begin with for the norm. Blaming it on the writers and plot and the "need for the story to be interesting" can be flimsy because we know creative writers out there can write stories fully or damn near close to fully exploring the entirety of a power set.

It's pretty tricky either way, because you're either going to have a character fighting out of character based off of something which isn't the norm nor should it be treated as such or you're basically interpreting the character to further your own agenda/argument over how the comics do, for good or for ill.

King Kandy
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The New Gods. It's high time you guys made the true form thing forum law. And I want Darkseid to get credit for crushing space/time and the multiverse in FC. The rediculous lowballing of DS and the rest of the new gods ends.
Why would we want to make those the default when 99% of their appearances are not in that form?

King Kandy
I think we need to clear up "classic" Strange to. Exactly where does he end and where does current begin?

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by King Kandy
Why would we want to make those the default when 99% of their appearances are not in that form? Default? Nah. Not unless specified. But I want it acknowledged.

Black bolt z
Originally posted by Black bolt z
Would character prep fall under this thread?

Because Reed, Doom, Thanos, or banner or anyone like that, even with like 10 min prep, always seem to get an auto win.

I'm not sure what would be done about it but it just seems like a topic up for deciding something about. Seriously is there some sort of ruling on uber prep characters?

King Kandy
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Default? Nah. Not unless specified. But I want it acknowledged.
Well given that that's EXACTLY as it is right now ("regular" forms unless true form is specifically specified), i'm curious exactly what it is you want to be put in the rules.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Default? Nah. Not unless specified. But I want it acknowledged. wut

-Pr-
Originally posted by Newjak
I personally think this one is covered but maybe some clarification could be used since it has mostly attained to speed thus far.

For me CIS and Full-Potential often seem to be brought in contrast to each other.

Thor full-potential would be too much for Hulk to handle, yet people constantly scream CIS that he would in fact fight in a manner that gives Hulk a chance.

Superman is much the same way Superman's wide breath of abilities make him too versatile for Hulk to handle but people argue that it is in character for him to try and sit there and let Hulk possibly net a few wins by not going all out at the beginning and I'm not just talking about speed.

This can be said for a number of characters.

My idea has always been that in Forum Fights we are trying to find out how characters would do against each other with them using their abilities to the best while not deviating from their core values such as not killing.

I've always felt that Thor/Green Lantern/Superman wouldn't really limit the scope of their abilities just tone them back to a level that wouldn't kill their opponents outright, or if they have a tactic such as BFR or incapacitating they could and should be allowed to use it in the beginning.

And that if we want to see more limited battles that is what stipulations are for.

We already did. It's under the CIP ruling in the Rules section.

Originally posted by Starscream M
these rulings would seem to place superman and flash quite a bit above their herald peers...erm

No they're not.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Existere's got a point here. It's a slippery slope, imo. We already have had plenty of fights devolve into powersets vs. powersets to the point where character and personality don't factor into the equation. It then becomes PIS if said character doesn't use everything at their disposal when said character really doesn't use everything at their disposal to begin with for the norm. Blaming it on the writers and plot and the "need for the story to be interesting" can be flimsy because we know creative writers out there can write stories fully or damn near close to fully exploring the entirety of a power set.

It's pretty tricky either way, because you're either going to have a character fighting out of character based off of something which isn't the norm nor should it be treated as such or you're basically interpreting the character to further your own agenda/argument over how the comics do, for good or for ill.

We already treat personality and behaviour as the primary (or at least one of) decider on how a character will perform. Again, this is in the CIP ruling.

For anyone who doesn't know what i'm saying:

Originally posted by Raoul
Clarification of CIS

Ok people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.

PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.

CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.

While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.

This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.

As Bada said:

"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."

What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.

In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:

The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience

Those four are key.

Example:

If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.

MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.

However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.

Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.

It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET.

--

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Seriously is there some sort of ruling on uber prep characters?

We will address it at some point.

TricksterPriest
After Batman's xanatos roulette to escape Darkseid's last **** you via the Omega Sanction, nobody can say shit about his prep skills. thumb up

Kandy: That Darkseid was responsible for the space/time collapse and the death of the multiverse under his own power. The ALE let him hang on while he was dying, and the reshaping is also due to it. But the fist crushing and choking the life out of the DCU? That's all him. Hell, Orion put the hole in his heart that sent him back in time, he deserves alot of credit too.

King Kandy
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Kandy: That Darkseid was responsible for the space/time collapse and the death of the multiverse under his own power. The ALE let him hang on while he was dying, and the reshaping is also due to it. But the fist crushing and choking the life out of the DCU? That's all him. Hell, Orion put the hole in his heart that sent him back in time, he deserves alot of credit too.
Right, but those are true form feats, and as you yourself admitted would only be relevant to a thread where that was specified.

TricksterPriest
Too used to arguing with fanboys. durpot

How about getting that infinity feat of Odin's straightened out? I'm pretty sure that got retconned.

-Pr-
Trick, can you at least specify exactly what you're looking for as regards the New Gods? You might feel like you're repeating yourself, but it would help.

King Kandy
Yeah, I really don't understand what the actual rule you're hoping to add is.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
How about getting that infinity feat of Odin's straightened out? I'm pretty sure that got retconned.

You mean Odin as Infinity, his rogue alter ego? What about it?

King Kandy
Later in a "Quasar" issue, they mentioned that the Infinity in that arc had been tapping the abstract Infinity's power. However, the feats Odin himself did are still valid.

long pig
Someone do Strange if he hasn't been done and I'll help. I'm not sure exactly what this all means.

Starscream M
question:

under this ruling then, wouldn't virtually everyone be like a statue to Flash (Wally) when he taps into the speedforce?

Mindship
I think you guys have set for yourselves a Herculean task. It sounds almost like your trying to set specs for things that are often highly subjective. Eg, how often Superman can speedblitz an opponent, or what ten minutes of Batman prep means. And if you really try to quantify abilities, isn't that like what the role-playing games do: everything has a point value?

Anyways, this has been my impression, reading the posts so far. I think you guys have a great idea, but I really don't know how you would execute it, at least not without citing some specifics.

praying-mantis
if any moderator needs my wisdom concerning character info or general character tactics feel free to pm me
i stopped reading comics in 03 so am unfamiliar with current info
but assume i may have info from backin the day

psycho gundam
stfu

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Starscream M
question:

under this ruling then, wouldn't virtually everyone be like a statue to Flash (Wally) when he taps into the speedforce? Ding. Hence, why he beats Odin.

Pr: Darkseid gets credit for crushing the multiverse under his own power. And this crap about Thanos being on his level ends.

Philosophía
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ding. Hence, why he beats Odin.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/122009/1260528522_itcrowd-facepalm.gif
You're not helping, Trick.

Starscream M
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ding. Hence, why he beats Odin.

well hence why I think the ruling is kinda ridiculous...it results in insane outcomes

TricksterPriest

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
If Galan doesn't give my man Darkseid the win, I refuse to give Odin one. Especially considering DS has time manip out the wazoo and Odin has no speed feats. ...

Except when Odin rushed across the galaxy creating suns in his fight with Forsung...

King Kandy
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ding. Hence, why he beats Odin.

Pr: Darkseid gets credit for crushing the multiverse under his own power. And this crap about Thanos being on his level ends.
But that was the power of "true form" DS, and you ALREADY SAID that shouldn't be the default on this forum.

Sr J-Bieb
Also, you know a rule is broken when somebody is arguing that under it Odin couldn't do shit to Flash.

batdude123
I think we should only use low showings for every character.

That way, everybody's pissed off.

Sr J-Bieb
Originally posted by batdude123
I think we should only use low showings for every character.

That way, everybody's pissed off. I'm OK with this. Thanos you see, and he doesn't have too many of those. thumb up

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ding. Hence, why he beats Odin.

Pr: Darkseid gets credit for crushing the multiverse under his own power. And this crap about Thanos being on his level ends.

Odin grants himself super speed and blitzes Flash.

Philosophía
We should use high-showings for our favorite characters, and only low-showings for their opponents, simultaneously ignoring every argument to the contrary.

That way, happiness is independent of the other guy you're talking to.

The quarver ruling.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Odin grants himself super speed and blitzes Flash. in the time that it takes odin to think of that and then do it, flash would've already landed infinite amount of IMPs, KOing him.

Sr J-Bieb

Philosophía
Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Otherwise known as the Wolverine Effect http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2010/10/ohnoyoudidnt.gif

Rage.Of.Olympus
Oh snap.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Starscream M
in the time that it takes odin to think of that and then do it, flash would've already landed infinite amount of IMPs, KOing him.

I was joking, but whatever.

You're wrong by the way.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I was joking, but whatever.

You're wrong by the way. I wasn't being serious. no expression

Rage.Of.Olympus
Oh. Sorry.

I couldn't tell. To be fair, you can't really blame me looking at your history.

JakeTheBank
Lmao.

King Kandy
Also, I think we should rule "classic juggernaut". Since it seems many people think "Classic" means "only that one thor showing and nothing else".

Starscream M
Originally posted by King Kandy
Also, I think we should rule "classic juggernaut". Since it seems many people think "Classic" means "only that one thor showing and nothing else". imo, classic juggernaut is pre-Onslaught saga juggernaut

King Kandy
For that matter, we should divide up all the characters considered to have "classic" versions like Thor and Strange.

Starscream M
Originally posted by King Kandy
For that matter, we should divide up all the characters considered to have "classic" versions like Thor and Strange. not a bad idea, I'm tired of ppl using feats from decades ago that are clearly no longer representative of the current character's power...but are still used simply because there hasn't been an explicit retconn

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Odin grants himself super speed and blitzes Flash.
erm

I really don't see Odin being able to one-up the Speedforce when it comes to speed.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Omega Vision
erm

I really don't see Odin being able to one-up the Speedforce when it comes to speed. oh jeez, don't tell me you actually think a full potential Wally beats Odin erm

Tha C-Master
He doesn't need full potential. shifty

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Starscream M
oh jeez, don't tell me you actually think a full potential Wally beats Odin erm
No. And I didn't imply that in my post either.

I'm merely stating that I don't think there's any valid reason to think Odin can amp himself to be faster than a Speed Force Speedster.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Omega Vision
No. And I didn't imply that in my post either.

I'm merely stating that I don't think there's any valid reason to think Odin can amp himself to be faster than a Speed Force Speedster. well, technically, if you take speedforce at face value and assume Wally taps into it, wouldn't Odin be a relative statue to Wally? seconds could literally be years for a speedforce user

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Starscream M
not a bad idea, I'm tired of ppl using feats from decades ago that are clearly no longer representative of the current character's power...but are still used simply because there hasn't been an explicit retconn just say thor, i know you want to

Rage.Of.Olympus
Haha.

How many Mjolnir-less threads has he created now? Curious.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
erm

I really don't see Odin being able to one-up the Speedforce when it comes to speed.

(1) Joking. (2) Why not?

Existere

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Haha.

How many Mjolnir-less threads has he created now? Curious.



(1) Joking. (2) Why not?
Lack of solid evidence that Odin can speed amp to those levels.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lack of solid evidence that Odin can speed amp to those levels.

The Odin Force is basically like a Cosmic Cube (In it's applications). It's power can be channeled into doing or manipulating anything -relative to it's power level of course- whether it's creating a world or amping physical attributes.

I just think when you reach these types of power levels where their capabilities can be defined as "reality warping", I don't think you need to have everything spelled out on panel to assume something is within their capabilities. For me, Odin once turning a mortal boy into an Asgardian and giving him super speed with a casual zap is enough evidence. If Odin channeled more power, I have no doubt he can increase the levels dramatically but you do have somewhat of a point. It would be a no limit fallacy to an extent on my part.

kgkg
This is going well so far.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It would be a no limit fallacy on my part.
Glad you see my point. awesome

King Kandy
I think we should ban all "god-analogues" (TOAA, presence, primal monitor, HOTU) from being used. I can't think of a single non-stupid discussion these characters have generated and they usually just boil down to flaming because people have no way to actually prove anything.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by King Kandy
I think we should ban all "god-analogues" (TOAA, presence, primal monitor, HOTU) from being used. I can't think of a single non-stupid discussion these characters have generated and they usually just boil down to flaming because people have no way to actually prove anything.
Or maybe just put a moratorium on Cosmic threads period.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Or maybe just put a moratorium on Cosmic threads period.
Nah, usually they fall into the domain of feat-based analysis... I think the kind I mentioned are irredeemably stupid because the very idea of "which bona-fide omnipotent being is stronger than the other" is pretty flawed.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Starscream M
well, technically, if you take speedforce at face value and assume Wally taps into it, wouldn't Odin be a relative statue to Wally? seconds could literally be years for a speedforce user Thats my argument on why a speedsteal should work on Odin. Just shut down his brain functions while he's in a body. Like I've posted in other areas I've yet to see anything that can stop a speed steal. I don't mean to no limits fallacy but there really isn't anything to compare speedforce speed steal to because the premise of the speed force is that it is essentially representative of all kinetic energy and should in theory be able to affect anything with matter. However I'll say that flash would lose or at best stalemate anyone with true intangibility.

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by King Kandy
But that was the power of "true form" DS, and you ALREADY SAID that shouldn't be the default on this forum.

Yes, but some people including yourself, refuse to give him credit for it and insist it was the ALE. excellent

Originally posted by Starscream M
well, technically, if you take speedforce at face value and assume Wally taps into it, wouldn't Odin be a relative statue to Wally? seconds could literally be years for a speedforce user

If you want to get pissed at someone, blame DC for creating this monster. But yes, he is that fast. And yes, Odin cannot react to that level of speed. Even Darkseid can't react at that level.

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