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What's the most likely scenario if Mace Windu had sabered Palpatine before Anakin arrived, what would have happened?

1. Does Anakin kill Windu in a fit of rage when he does arrive, believing Padme doomed? Take control of the clone army, take Luke as an apprentice, rule the galaxy?

2. Does Windu beat Anakin like an Afghan orphan, killing him in the process and ending the threat of The Sith?

This isn't Anakin vs Windu. it's "What happens to the galaxy?"

It's #2.

In any case, I think that unless they have proof that Palpatine was a Sith, the Jedi eventually topple due to mistrust. From what I understand, Palpatine was beloved by almost everyone.

Mace Windu would never have a chance to kill Palpatine since it was all staged.

Indeed.

Not at all- this staging idea has always been incorrect. Windu had him beaten. Not only is that important logically, it's also vitally important to the drama of Anakin's plotline that HE made the difference. It's dramatically pointless if he is just following a script.

The whole drive to make the Empire an Empire would have fallen apart without him.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not at all- this staging idea has always been incorrect. Windu had him beaten. Not only is that important logically, it's also vitally important to the drama of Anakin's plotline that HE made the difference. It's dramatically pointless if he is just following a script.

The whole drive to make the Empire an Empire would have fallen apart without him.

No - Sidious was feigning to be beaten, to further manipulate Anakin (whom he knew to be arriving, feeling his approach) into seeing Windu and the Jedi as aggressors, while showing himself as the man of reason, with the knowledge to save Anakin's secret wife. The drama comes from the fact that Anakin finally falls over the brink at that moment.

As great as Windu was, he ranked below Sidious and Yoda as the greatest of Jedi/Sith; but it would have been interesting to see how he would have fared against an enraged Anakin, who did in Count Dooku earlier. The reason Obi Wan managed to defeat Anakin was his mastery of a different lightsaber combat that was heavy on defense, and that he knew Anakin so well for the past 13 years, training him and sparring with him.

A. Sidious was beaten, yes Anakin stepped in but I think that had Anakin not stepped in Sidious would have been toast.

B. The reason Obi-Wan beat Anakin is because Anakin's arrogance allowed him to, Obi-Wan was no more skilled with a lightsaber than Anakin, a fact which was proven in the duel on Mustafar in which neither could out-duel the other. The only thing that gave Obi-Wan the edge was that tactically he had the higher ground and Anakin in his arrogance refused to heed to it.

Originally posted by roughrider
No - Sidious was feigning to be beaten, to further manipulate Anakin (whom he knew to be arriving, feeling his approach) into seeing Windu and the Jedi as aggressors, while showing himself as the man of reason, with the knowledge to save Anakin's secret wife. The drama comes from the fact that Anakin finally falls over the brink at that moment.

As great as Windu was, he ranked below Sidious and Yoda as the greatest of Jedi/Sith; but it would have been interesting to see how he would have fared against an enraged Anakin, who did in Count Dooku earlier. The reason Obi Wan managed to defeat Anakin was his mastery of a different lightsaber combat that was heavy on defense, and that he knew Anakin so well for the past 13 years, training him and sparring with him.

Nonsense. Windu out and out beat him. The only evidence we have of which of them was a better fighter was what happened on screen when they fought. Windu won. The idea that this was some sort of ridiculously elaborate fake by Sidious (when Windu could have killed him so very easily- what a stupid risk to take!) has no backing at all and only exists in unreasonable imaginations.

No, the drama is that Anakin doomed the galaxy to the Empire. His personal issues had now become destructive for everyone, What happened to him as a person was hardly that dramatic; the effect it had on the storyline was.

Couple of things to clarify....

Mace beat Palpatine with a lightsaber. That much is ligit.......he won the duel.

Palpatine however, faked being too weak to continue fighting Mace after he realized Mace could deflect his force lightning. At that point for Palps it was "Oh snap....plan B?" You can see it when he glances over at Anakin....when he gives him that "are you buying into my BS?" look. And plus, after Mace loses his arm, well....we all know the Emperor unleashes the biggest blast of force-lightning we've seen yet....so the whole being "too weak" thing was most definitely staged.......but not the actual duel itself.

Palpatine manipulates Anakin throughout the movie into thinking he needs him in order to save Padme....thus, is the reason for Anakin siding with him instead of Mace...and ultimately, changing the course of fate for the Republic.

Palpatine planted the seeds, Anakin watered them.

That Afghan orphan analogy is insanely inappropriate. It speaks volumes of your mentality. Moving on...

Remember, Anakin snitched out Palpatine to begin with. It was in the Council Chambers, while reflecting on his decision, that Palpatine reached out to him and gave him the push he needed.

"If I die, all hope is lost..."

If he got there and Mace had killed him, he would've just been like:

"Oh. You got him already, huh?"

There's nothing he can do. That avenue is closed.

He'd probably go back to Yoda and admit he's screwing Padme and that she's pregnant and he needs to find a way to keep her safe from his visions.

Cooler heads prevail. He should've just been out with it and gotten the proper counseling he needed. Maybe he and Padme could've picked out the casket together. Make it an event.

Originally posted by Sith Master X
Couple of things to clarify....

Mace beat Palpatine with a lightsaber. That much is ligit.......he won the duel.

Palpatine however, faked being too weak to continue fighting Mace after he realized Mace could deflect his force lightning. At that point for Palps it was "Oh snap....plan B?" You can see it when he glances over at Anakin....when he gives him that "are you buying into my BS?" look. And plus, after Mace loses his arm, well....we all know the Emperor unleashes the biggest blast of force-lightning we've seen yet....so the whole being "too weak" thing was most definitely staged.......but not the actual duel itself.

Palpatine manipulates Anakin throughout the movie into thinking he needs him in order to save Padme....thus, is the reason for Anakin siding with him instead of Mace...and ultimately, changing the course of fate for the Republic.

Palpatine planted the seeds, Anakin watered them.

Yes, Palps changing plan there to get Anakin to do what he did- that's fine and dandy and reasonable.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nonsense. Windu out and out beat him. The only evidence we have of which of them was a better fighter was what happened on screen when they fought. Windu won. The idea that this was some sort of ridiculously elaborate fake by Sidious (when Windu could have killed him so very easily- what a stupid risk to take!) has no backing at all and only exists in unreasonable imaginations.

No, the drama is that Anakin doomed the galaxy to the Empire. His personal issues had now become destructive for everyone, What happened to him as a person was hardly that dramatic; the effect it had on the storyline was.

The problem was we saw Palpatine go through three of Windu's Jedi like a knife through butter at the beginning of the duel, so he obviously had the power to end things quickly. But he needed to manipulate things further with Anakin, so he drew things out with Windu - this was the big gamble, right next to launching the Clone Wars. 13 plus years of manipulations & schemes had built to that moment, right from the time he sensed Anakin's potential (and potential weakness) as a boy, to convert him into his instrument to wipe out the Jedi.

Also, we saw the greatest of the Jedi - Yoda - only managed a narrow stalemate with Palpatine later on. That was Palpatine going full out, no need for masks anymore as he had his victory, or to feign weakness. To suggest the opposite is to say Windu was a greater Jedi & fighter than Yoda, in my opinion.

All those fight make SW very muddled and the Jedi very questionable in their abilities and powers. Those two fights are so bizarre... In the end Yoda couldn't manage to beat Dooku (we never know how it would have ended), yet Anakin kicks his butt. Yoda is almost as powerful as Sidious... and Mace fairly easily beats Sidious... How does this work?????

Originally posted by roughrider
The problem was we saw Palpatine go through three of Windu's Jedi like a knife through butter at the beginning of the duel, so he obviously had the power to end things quickly. But he needed to manipulate things further with Anakin, so he drew things out with Windu - this was the big gamble, right next to launching the Clone Wars. 13 plus years of manipulations & schemes had built to that moment, right from the time he sensed Anakin's potential (and potential weakness) as a boy, to convert him into his instrument to wipe out the Jedi.

Also, we saw the greatest of the Jedi - Yoda - only managed a narrow stalemate with Palpatine later on. That was Palpatine going full out, no need for masks anymore as he had his victory, or to feign weakness. To suggest the opposite is to say Windu was a greater Jedi & fighter than Yoda, in my opinion.

Not a problem at all. Windu was much better than those others.

You are greatly overcomplicating to absolutely no purpose at all. It's rather pointless. Windu won- straight out.

Windu is also clearly a better duellist than Yoda. Yoda is greater in other ways.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not a problem at all. Windu was much better than those others.

You are greatly overcomplicating to absolutely no purpose at all. It's rather pointless. Windu won- straight out.

Windu is also clearly a better duellist than Yoda. Yoda is greater in other ways.

Well, your mature and sensible argument has won me over, clearly.

Don't spam like that in future.

You won't like him when he's angry.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Well, your mature and sensible argument has won me over, clearly.

Don't spam like that in future.


Like Deep Throat keeps saying to Bob Woodward in All the President's Men (about the Watergate conspiracy) "...You're missing the overall!"

Why did Palpatine reveal to Anakin that he knew the force, that he was a Sith Lord? Why then? Because with everything happening in the galaxy, and with Anakin's secret life that he knew about, he felt this was the moment to finally turn Anakin. Anakin was still beholden enough to the Jedi to turn him in, but Palpatine wasn't worried. He felt he had planted it deep enough in Anakin that he would be at his side when the moment came. That moment wouldn't be there if Anakin returned to his office and found Paplatine had killed Windu and his group - or even if he had Windu at his mercy and told him he had to choose right then to join him or the Jedi would take over and the knowledge he sought form him would be lost. He had to put Anakin in a place where he physically used the force in fear & anger, which leads to the dark side.

Anakin had pushed the line dangerously before against the Sandpeople and Dooku; attacking & aiding in the death of Jedi masters would be the act that Palpatine felt would push him over the edge for good. Hence, he let himself appear to be beaten and about to be executed on the spot by Windu, who told Anakin the Chancellor was too dangerous & powerful to be taken alive and put on trial. Palpatine gambled that Anakin's sense of right & wrong had become clouded enough that he would do what he thought was 'right' (but was really him acting in his own self interest, for Padme), and he was right. Even though Anakin immediately was horrified at the decision he made, it was too late to go back then.

Palpatine was never beaten by Windu. He had gambled, feigned weakness and won.

No that's all just irrelevant supposition on your part. Again, no idea why you overcomplicate so; nearly all of what you said is entirely irrelevant.

Windu, plainly and demonstrably, beat Palpatine and that is all there is to it. The idea Palpatine faked the fight is simply silly.

How is it silly? Palpatine wants Anakin as his apprentice all the way back since TPM. This was the final conversion, Palpatine wished to force Anakin's hand. Regardless, GL himself says Palpatine was "overpowered" in the saber duel but "pretends to lose his powers" in the force duel.
Honestly, how do you think Anakin's coversion would turn out if Palpatine was sitting on his chair surronded by four dead Jedi... Palpatine played the part of the victim. He made Anakin sympathize with him. That's the way I view the scene anyway.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No that's all just irrelevant supposition on your part. Again, no idea why you overcomplicate so; nearly all of what you said is entirely irrelevant.

Windu, plainly and demonstrably, beat Palpatine and that is all there is to it. The idea Palpatine faked the fight is simply silly.

Well, then I guess you saw a completely different film series. One where a bunch of random events occurred, and nowhere was there the hand of Darth Sidious manipulating things on a giant scale. Because that's the series George Lucas intended for us to see.

Palpatine was done for. He got his ass handed to him by Mace - even his lightning was useless. Had Anakin not been there, Palpatine would've been killed. As soon as he stopped trying to hit Mace with lightning, Mace would've took his head off.

Anakin went there with his mind made up. He ran in there ready to sell his soul. He didn't flinch to protect Mace in any way, shape or form. Anakin went there to make sure Palpatine walked out of it safe and sound.

Palpatine played weak to maneuver himself and essentially hide behind Anakin. If Mace wanted Palpatine, he'd have to go through Anakin.

Again, had Anakin not showed - Palpatine would've been in pieces.

Mace and Yoda are THE top dogs. Yoda lost to Palps only cuz the Emperor called in the Clone Army. Yoda lost to Dooku only cuz he got distracted. Palpatine ain't stronger than Yoda...cuz that would mean Obi-Wan is stronger than ANYONE - 'cuz ONLY HE has defeated a Sith Lord. But then how does he loose to Dooku...TWICE...in a FAIR FIGHT!

Yoda simply failed in his assassination attempt. You don't get another shot of those with a guy who has an entire Empire at his disposal.

Does that mean Mace is stronger than Yoda? Hmmm...how 'bout you switch roles. What if Yoda had tried to arrest Palpatine and Mace had tried to assassinate him. Probably have the same outcome.

Except, Mace would be the one stuck on Dagobah. THAT would be awsome. An old Mace teaching Luke. "I never trusted your dad..."

*inserts DVD of Empire Strikes Back in player*

Originally posted by roughrider
Well, then I guess you saw a completely different film series. One where a bunch of random events occurred, and nowhere was there the hand of Darth Sidious manipulating things on a giant scale. Because that's the series George Lucas intended for us to see.

Again, you are completely irrelevant there. No-one is denying that Sidious is a manipulator., But not one tiny part of that changes the fact that Mace beat him in the duel.

You accuse me of not watching it, but you are just projecting your own fantasies about Sidious onto what you see and hence grossly misinterpreting what is simply shown on screen. Not good.

Again- Windu simply out and out beat Sidious. Sidious improvised to turn Anakin at the key moment. If Anakin had not done that, Sidious would have been dead and there would be no empire.

Saying he faked it is silly as that fight was not some calculated thing that Palpaitne could have set every stage of. Windu could exceptionally easily have killed him- if he had not hesitated, for example. He wouldn't take such an insane risk. Saying that Sidious could manipulate the sabre fight in THAT much detail- yes, plain silly, and basically in denial of what you see on screen. Palpatine gets so many things wrong in the PT; I am amazed why so many people think he can plan absolutely everything to a perfect degree- and you do the likes of Windu an enormous disservice.

Windu won.

Then Anakin stepped in and ruined the flow of things.

"Good guys no win...Bad guys win. Me need wife...alive."

It's Anakin's Saga, not Palpatine's Epic-Brilliant-Manipulation-of-Everybody-and-Everything the Movie.

Anakin didn't show up to supervise. He showed up ready to play.

Anakin went there to make sure Palpatine went to trial? Well, why didn't Anakin tell Palpatine he was under arrest? Why didn't he tell Palpatine to stand down? Why did Anakin let Palpatine kill Mace?

Palpatine forced him to?

Anakin went there with the ABSOLUTE INTENT on backing Palpatine's play...whatever it may be. Palpatine was his path to power...he's not gonna be a great teacher behind bars...or during a trial.

When Anakin left the Council Chambers, he knew what it would all come down to, but he didn't want to do it. He was hesitant. He spat out everything he could to make Mace stop. He didn't want to do it, he didn't like it, he couldn't believe he actually did it, BUT he was prepared and Palpatine knew it as soon as Anakin walked in.

If Anakin caught Mace on the way out of the building with Palpatine in handcuffs, you're saying Anakin would've escorted him to jail w/ Mace?

Anakin would've tried to free Palpatine...which would inevitably lead to a fight to the death...despite Anakin's reluctance to do so.

"Let him go...I need him!"

Not, "Your Highness, before you go - I DO need to speak with your attorney so we can work out a schedule for my Dark Side training."

What do you think all the tears were about in the Council Chambers? It was about the horrible choice he just made. Then he ran before Palpatine was beyond his reach...ie: JAIL or DEAD

So Anakin's tears were about: "I hope Palpatine gets a looooong trial."

"He must stand trial!" Is just a rationale...delusions for a reason why Palpatine must live...the truth..."I need him!"

*is liking ESB a lot*

I just watched Anakin's turn with commentary. Lucas said Anakin didn't realize Palpatine was going to kill Mace.

Soooo...Anakin didn't know Palpatine would kill Mace given the chance. That, "Oh...I'm weak!" REALLY did a number on Anakin.

Instead of blocking Mace's lightsaber, I guess he missed and accidentally took his hand.

I guess when he deactivated his lightsaber and watched Mace's skeleton light up, Anakin was trying to understand how Palpatine could shoot lightning out of his hands.

Lucas = Wow.

In the Bluray Special Edition, they need to add a couple of soundbytes to that scene. "Oops." (from TPM when Anakin grabs 3PO's eye) after Anakin slices Mace's arm AND "Please, sir - wait!" (from TPM when Anakin is running with Qui-Gon to the ship) when Palpatine is killing Mace...'cuz damn.

The commentary certainly doesn't improver the scene... And indeed, a couple of "OOPPSES" and "Cutting of his arms, that's a good trick" would certainly have given this scene its true meaning.