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who wins

Despero.

KC Captain Marvel isn't any stronger than normal CM. His power is immutable- 10 years, a thousand, he never increases or decreases in strength.

Normally, I'd agree, but the strange thing is when you compare his fight to KC Superman, who is stated and shown (both in Kingdom Come and in the spin offs) to be clearly superior to mainstream Superman, whom mainstream Captain Marvel generally stalemates. There's no logical reason for Captain Marvel being amped or more powerful in the future storyline of Kingdom Come, but he is. And I believe Alex Ross himself has stated that he feels Captain Marvel should be at least equal to Superman regardless.

I don't think their fight showed them as that equal though- Superman shrugged several of his lightning blasts, normally a winning move, and grabbed him.

Also, while KC Superman is superior to classic, he's not so superior that someone who was a close match for him before isn't still a major challenge.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think their fight showed them as that equal though- Superman shrugged several of his lightning blasts, normally a winning move, and grabbed him.

Also, while KC Superman is superior to classic, he's not so superior that someone who was a close match for him before isn't still a major challenge.

hercules was able to punch normal superman through a building while busting his nose and making him bleed, KC Superman didnt even get budge/phased whats so ever by the same punch

KC is alot more powerful not to mention 20 years more of solar energy

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Normally, I'd agree, but the strange thing is when you compare his fight to KC Superman, who is stated and shown (both in Kingdom Come and in the spin offs) to be clearly superior to mainstream Superman, whom mainstream Captain Marvel generally stalemates. There's no logical reason for Captain Marvel being amped or more powerful in the future storyline of Kingdom Come, but he is. And I believe Alex Ross himself has stated that he feels Captain Marvel should be at least equal to Superman regardless.
Superman wasn't fighting him to the best of his ability while Cap was brainwashed/bloodlusted.

Cap was not fighting to his best either. In fact it made him fight carelessly.

He was brainwashed, but not fighting with any sort of bloodlusted frenzy, it was a 'cocky' disposition if anything.

Not to mention Spectre tells us before hand that Cap is the one man who can match Clark's every move. No need to attempt to dissect and make inferences more in line with personal favor, when we have everything we need within the story telling us what is what.

KC Superman was trying to talk to Billy because he felt he had no other choice. What was he going to do? KO Billy before the Anti-Meta Nuke came down? He obviously didn't have the ability to do that.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Cap was not fighting to his best either. In fact it made him fight carelessly.

He was brainwashed, but not fighting with any sort of bloodlusted frenzy, it was a 'cocky' disposition if anything.

Not to mention Spectre tells us before hand that Cap is the one man who can match Clark's every move. No need to attempt to dissect and make inferences more in line with personal favor, when we have everything we need within the story telling us what is what.

KC Superman was trying to talk to Billy because he felt he had no other choice. What was he going to do? KO Billy before the Anti-Meta Nuke came down? He obviously didn't have the ability to do that.



I think Ross and Co. made it very clear that Captain Marvel was an equal to Superman in that story, hence why it was such a huge deal when it was revealed that Luthor had him at his disposal.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think their fight showed them as that equal though- Superman shrugged several of his lightning blasts, normally a winning move, and grabbed him.

Also, while KC Superman is superior to classic, he's not so superior that someone who was a close match for him before isn't still a major challenge.


superman was also bleeding all over the place while captian marvel was just laughing at him. I think billy was much stronger in the future as well as supes. However i still think supes was slightly stronger then cap as he always has been.


Despero ftw.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C


hercules was able to punch normal superman through a building while busting his nose and making him bleed, KC Superman didnt even get budge/phased whats so ever by the same punch

KC is alot more powerful not to mention 20 years more of solar energy

a cheap shot by hercules when superman wasn't ready doesn't compare to a bracing kc superman.

ain't the same punch.

Originally posted by -Pr-
a cheap shot by hercules when superman wasn't ready doesn't compare to a bracing kc superman.

ain't the same punch.

Agree..
But in the end the writer/artist did want to convey the fact that KC Supes => Supes

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Agree..
But in the end the writer/artist did want to convey the fact that KC Supes => Supes

Which is fine.

I'm just tired of people doing the usual "Herc beat Superman one on one" stupidity.

Originally posted by -Pr-
a cheap shot by hercules when superman wasn't ready doesn't compare to a bracing kc superman.

ain't the same punch. so a bracing superman is more durable?
because normal superman got a busted nose from the punch

by the way how did kc superman even brace? the guy was standing perfectly still , im tired of the kc superman braced stupidity

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
There's no logical reason for Captain Marvel being amped or more powerful in the future storyline of Kingdom Come, but he is. You mean besides the fact that mainstream Captain Marvel is from a different Universe altogether compared to KC Captain Marvel?

Originally posted by zeel
superman was also bleeding all over the place while captian marvel was just laughing at him. I think billy was much stronger in the future as well as supes.

Superman hadn't particularly attacked him until he grabbed his mouth. Of course CM was fine. Superman was bleeding, but definitely not out, after taking an amount of attacks that'd KO current Superman if they were done by normal CM.


I see no reason 'normal' CM lightning strikes wouldn't do that much damage.

.

Originally posted by -Pr-
a cheap shot by hercules when superman wasn't ready doesn't compare to a bracing kc superman.

ain't the same punch.

How is that a cheap shot??? If you put your hands on someone in a threatining manner and they don't like it what are they supposed to do. After he elbowed Superman it''s Supermans fault for not following through.

If I come up behind you talking shit and put my hands on you are you going to let me get away with that? No you are going to elbow me. Then you are going to rock me like Hercules rocked Superman. Not a cheap shot at all!!!!

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/rave74/SupermanKCSupermanvsHerculesThisisj.jpg

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Cap was not fighting to his best either. In fact it made him fight carelessly.

He was brainwashed, but not fighting with any sort of bloodlusted frenzy, it was a 'cocky' disposition if anything.

Not to mention Spectre tells us before hand that Cap is the one man who can match Clark's every move. No need to attempt to dissect and make inferences more in line with personal favor, when we have everything we need within the story telling us what is what.

KC Superman was trying to talk to Billy because he felt he had no other choice. What was he going to do? KO Billy before the Anti-Meta Nuke came down? He obviously didn't have the ability to do that.
win

KC Marvel

oh and IMHO CM = Superman, KC and standard.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
They're from different universes Glad to see you agree.

Anything else is speculation - the important part is KC Captain Marvel has nothing to do with mainstream Captain Marvel.

And yes, Alex Ross has quite the odd hard on for Captain Marvel, making him outshine Superman in terms of power whenever he can.

No, because I think it's unsupported and ridiculous company policy.

Kind of like Thor and Hulk always being even in strength.

There's no problem with CM being his equal, but they can't be exactly equal. Someone has to be a little stronger than the other.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
since when is thor even in strength with hulk?
From his inception Thor was actually meant to be stronger than Hulk.

That's what Kirby and Lee intended anyway.

I think the quote was "How do you make a hero who's stronger than the strongest man there is (Hulk)? The answer: make him a God."

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How is it unsupported, though? And why do you find it ridiculous? Superman concedes to Cap having the edge in a direct confrontation due to magic and has on several occasions said he thinks Billy is an equal to him in every way. Not to mention the stalemates they've had in various comics, both the ones still considered canon and the ones which have been retconned due to COIE or Elseworlds.

Superman will still be the go to guy for major events and everything; but Captain Marvel being his equal or peer doesn't take anything away from him. So your argument for why Captain Marvel should be portrayed as equal to Superman, is because he is portrayed as equal to Superman?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_S5dFdpF6xm0/Sr3ruWqi0YI/AAAAAAAAAY8/xHiKfjagBdQ/s400/circular-reasoning-works-because.jpg

Ftw.

Tell me, if the characters are shown as equals in strength, yet one of them gets a ridiculous upgrade in power, but the other is still shown to be as strong as him, eventough nothing has changed in his powerlevel, would it be safe to say it's company policy?

There is nothing that commands logic from a superhero comprised of magic doing anything.

Especially when its something as trivial as simply getting more powerful over time, something that is also bolstered by the precedence set of being able to directly amp his powers through Zeus. He's still partly a kid in CM form to boot, it should be expected for him to get better with manipulating his powers over time.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
From his inception Thor was actually meant to be stronger than Hulk.

That's what Kirby and Lee intended anyway.

I think the quote was "How do you make a hero who's stronger than the strongest man there is (Hulk)? The answer: make him a God." But what he was intended and what he is now is not the same.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
U mean quite the same hard on u have for Clarky?? Yes, but I'm not a professional comics writer.
Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Feats aside if it's company policy, doesn't that add to the support for those two being equal in strength?? I mean it is their universe after all . If you can't keep up with the discussion, don't bother getting involved at all.

Originally posted by Starscream M
so it can't be that superman getting asinine powerups for the sake of plot is the idiotic policy? Who says that Superman gets "asinine powerups for the sake of the plot"? Those power-ups aren't there just for one story, they hold to present day.

Your words hurt me deeply, masterbruce.

Phil, cool your jets, colossus, don't make stupid, inflammatory posts, and starscream, that goes the same for you.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Phil, cool your jets That sounds so kinky. drool1

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I dont have to add anymore than what DC has already made perfectly clear.. And that's CM = Supes..

Dont beat ureself up over it..

Except that feats would disagree.

When the two fight there's always the "they're equal" point of view that both men have stated, and that's usually when they're both fighting fair against one another.

The problem is that DC will never come out and admit that one is superior to the other, just like Marvel used to not allow writers to say who was superior between Juggernaut and Hulk on any decisive level.

Not dissing Billy; there's just a fair lump of evidence to say that when push comes to shove, Clark is superior (even if it's not by a whole lot, depending on your point of view). Not to mention when he's sundipped.

Thats just it.. Supes is their main man.. How can CM contend featswise when Clark is everywhere in the DC universe?? The sheer number of appearances by Clark dwarf's that of CM's... Therefore one has to go to OnPanel showings when the 2 are compared. Nothing beats a comparison where the 2 are actually in the same arc. One has to surmise directly from those showings because I believe that would be the best if not the fairest way to compare these two.. CM has to be given a chance where he actually has one..

Originally posted by -Pr-
Except that feats would disagree.

When the two fight there's always the "they're equal" point of view that both men have stated, and that's usually when they're both fighting fair against one another.

The problem is that DC will never come out and admit that one is superior to the other, just like Marvel used to not allow writers to say who was superior between Juggernaut and Hulk on any decisive level.

Not dissing Billy; there's just a fair lump of evidence to say that when push comes to shove, Clark is superior (even if it's not by a whole lot, depending on your point of view). Not to mention when he's sundipped.

No, You have to compare them within shared arcs.

Not what Superman does in separate stories that do not involve CM at all.

If there are some direct comparison of feats where one can do something that the other can't do or does so more easily than the other can, that is where legitimate comparisons come from within this context; a context where its been an editorial rule for decades that they are to be equal.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
Thats just it.. Supes is their main man.. How can CM contend featswise when Clark is everywhere in the DC universe?? The sheer number of appearances by Clark dwarf's that of CM's... Therefore one has to go to OnPanel showings when the 2 are compared. Nothing beats a comparison where the 2 are actually in the same arc. One has to surmise directly from those showings because I believe that would be the best if not the fairest way to compare these two.. CM has to be given a chance where he actually has one..

Originally posted by CosmicComet
No, You have to compare them within shared arcs.

Not what Superman does in separate stories that do not involve CM at all.

If there are some direct comparison of feats where one can do something that the other can't do or does so more easily than the other can, that is where legitimate comparisons come from within this context; a context where its been an editorial rule for decades that they are to be equal.

so you want to ignore all of superman's feats outside of books that captain marvel is in? How is that at all fair?

Also, tell that to Grant Morrison.

Originally posted by -Pr-
so you want to ignore all of superman's feats outside of books that captain marvel is in? How is that at all fair?

Also, tell that to Grant Morrison.

I'm not ignoring Supes's feats. Again I will stick to what I've said earlier.
I'll come clean with something though...

CM is one of my faves if not my top DC guy.....
Here.. I'll change my avatar just for you...



But still they're equal damnit!!!

Originally posted by -Pr-
so you want to ignore all of superman's feats outside of books that captain marvel is in? How is that at all fair?


How at all did you come to the conclusion that this was what I meant?

My point was much more simple than this, and does not deny anyone anything.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
How at all did you come to the conclusion that this was what I meant?

My point was much more simple than this, and does not deny anyone anything.

My bad then. So what did you mean?

Despero.

Originally posted by -Pr-
My bad then. So what did you mean? on panel they are shown equal so just leave it at that period. anything else is fanboy

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
on panel they are shown equal so just leave it at that period. anything else is fanboy

Not to be rude, but: Nobody asked you.

Plus, you're wrong, so there is that.

Captain Marvel's powers all stack and further contribute with one another. The Strength of Hercules (who Superman is stronger then) combines with the Stamina of Atlas which in turns combines with the Power of Zeus, which increases all of his physical attributes and provides him the magical lightning aspect of his powers. It's the Power of Shazam spell in totality which makes Marvel an equal/peer to Superman, not the individual aspects of them.

Marvel's feats have progressed and gotten better as time has progressed, and he's also experienced specific amps/increases in power outside of simply being portrayed as being stronger though virtue of feats. And then there's the actual direct correlation feats between the two.

When Superman is squared off against Captain Marvel, it's consistently been a stalemate, draw, inconclusive, or a dubious "win" for either character. Getting mad at Alex Ross or whomever for portraying Captain Marvel in a light that makes him an equal to Superman or better in some areas is just really silly, imo as well as dubbing it 'company policy', especially when using that same excuse/reasoning for why Superman is portrayed in the light he is, it would likely be viewed as hating Superman or being anti-Superman or otherwise unacceptable to a majority of people here.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Captain Marvel's powers all stack and further contribute with one another. The Strength of Hercules (who Superman is stronger then) combines with the Stamina of Atlas which in turns combines with the Power of Zeus, which increases all of his physical attributes and provides him the magical lightning aspect of his powers. It's the Power of Shazam spell in totality which makes Marvel an equal/peer to Superman, not the individual aspects of them.

Marvel's feats have progressed and gotten better as time has progressed, and he's also experienced specific amps/increases in power outside of simply being portrayed as being stronger though virtue of feats. And then there's the actual direct correlation feats between the two.

When Superman is squared off against Captain Marvel, it's consistently been a stalemate, draw, inconclusive, or a dubious "win" for either character. Getting mad at Alex Ross or whomever for portraying Captain Marvel in a light that makes him an equal to Superman or better in some areas is just really silly, imo as well as dubbing it 'company policy', especially when using that same excuse/reasoning for why Superman is portrayed in the light he is, it would likely be viewed as hating Superman or being anti-Superman or otherwise unacceptable to a majority of people here.

I doubt anyone would disagree with most of that.

Do you differentiate between peer and equal?

Originally posted by -Pr-
I doubt anyone would disagree with most of that.

Do you differentiate between peer and equal?

I do.

In some cases, Captain Marvel is portrayed as a peer and other times his (Superman's) equal.

I just feel that blaming it on a "fanboyish" writer or "company policy" sets up a slippery slope, especially when we all know saying the same thing about how Superman is presented would be immediately branded as unfair or holding bias against DC/Superman and set off quite a few people.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I do.

In some cases, Captain Marvel is portrayed as a peer and other times his (Superman's) equal.

I just feel that blaming it on a "fanboyish" writer or "company policy" sets up a slippery slope, especially when we all know saying the same thing about how Superman is presented would be immediately branded as unfair or holding bias against DC/Superman and set off quite a few people.

And that's fine.

How do you account, though, for things like statements about Superman being faster, having less trouble with the infinite book, or throwing fights?

I'm not trying to put down Billy here; it just seems people are putting down Clark.

Originally posted by -Pr-
And that's fine.

How do you account, though, for things like statements about Superman being faster, having less trouble with the infinite book, or throwing fights?

I'm not trying to put down Billy here; it just seems people are putting down Clark.

Which statements are you referring to as far as speed goes? I know in First Thunder, a first year in action Captain Marvel mentioned he couldn't go in deep space, though he's since done that numerous times. The infinite book thing was also Captain Marvel of Earth-5, and not the mainstream Captain Marvel; we can assume he'd be as strong as mainstream Captain Marvel, but it would be speculation, as would KC CM over mainstream Captain Marvel. I personally feel KC CM would be stronger than mainstream CM, but I can't explicitly prove it one way or the other. As far as throwing fights, which fights has Superman thrown?

In any case, we take those examples and we look at the times where it's been stated or shown that are peers and/or equals, either physically or as a whole. One doesn't automatically exclude the other.

I don't think anyone is putting down Clark, though. And I think that's a problem in of itself; Captain Marvel being a peer/equal to Superman doesn't hurt or otherwise put down Superman. The idea of Marvel being on that level or extremely close to it has no negative impact on Superman.

Originally posted by -Pr-
My bad then. So what did you mean?

Simple, Supes can have his high end feats, but outside of feats that come about about due to his specific powerset, we can safely assume Cap can replicate them due to his status. His appearances are few, and often as a supporting character, thus using his 'screentime' on big plot-driven feats is not efficient use of it, why do so when they can simply reiterate his status as Supes' true equal in a single panel?

Like Jake said putting Cap as equal to Supes is in no way low balling Supes, rather, its parameterizing Cap.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Which statements are you referring to as far as speed goes? I know in First Thunder, a first year in action Captain Marvel mentioned he couldn't go in deep space, though he's since done that numerous times. The infinite book thing was also Captain Marvel of Earth-5, and not the mainstream Captain Marvel; we can assume he'd be as strong as mainstream Captain Marvel, but it would be speculation, as would KC CM over mainstream Captain Marvel. I personally feel KC CM would be stronger than mainstream CM, but I can't explicitly prove it one way or the other. As far as throwing fights, which fights has Superman thrown?

In any case, we take those examples and we look at the times where it's been stated or shown that are peers and/or equals, either physically or as a whole. One doesn't automatically exclude the other.

I don't think anyone is putting down Clark, though. And I think that's a problem in of itself; Captain Marvel being a peer/equal to Superman doesn't hurt or otherwise put down Superman. The idea of Marvel being on that level or extremely close to it has no negative impact on Superman.

There was a statement in the arc where Eclipso possessed Superman, and there was one in an older book where Marvel stated that Superman is faster, iirc. Yes, I know it was Earth 5 Captain Marvel; I was being facecious, more commenting on the "they're always portrayed as equals" thing rather than actually considering it as evidence.

Was talking about him throwing the fight in Superman/Batman, but Hawkman was there too, and we don't know what happened after that specifically.

They've been stated as relative equals, and are quite comparable. I just don't consider it outside the realm of possibility, given Superman's somewhat dynamic powerset, to put himself ahead of Billy.

Honest question: Going purely by feats, would you say that they're equal, in the same relative ball-park, or that one was superior to the other?

DC doesn't so much portray them as equals, rather just plays lip service to it anymore. Sure, they're in the same relative level (I'd put him closest to Clark out of anyone, for example), but a gap still exists, imo.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Simple, Supes can have his high end feats, but outside of feats that come about about due to his specific powerset, we can safely assume Cap can replicate them due to his status. His appearances are few, and often as a supporting character, thus using his 'screentime' on big plot-driven feats is not efficient use of it, why do so when they can simply reiterate his status as Supes' true equal in a single panel?

Like Jake said putting Cap as equal to Supes is in no way low balling Supes, rather, its parameterizing Cap.

Billy has plenty of appearances, enough to get an idea of how powerful he is. Are you honestly saying that Billy could replicate every feat of strength or durability Superman has simply because Superman (like he has for half the League) has talked him up?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
so a bracing superman is more durable?
because normal superman got a busted nose from the punch

by the way how did kc superman even brace? the guy was standing perfectly still , im tired of the kc superman braced stupidity

it's not stupidity, and Superman has done the exact same thing to people.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
How is that a cheap shot??? If you put your hands on someone in a threatining manner and they don't like it what are they supposed to do. After he elbowed Superman it''s Supermans fault for not following through.

If I come up behind you talking shit and put my hands on you are you going to let me get away with that? No you are going to elbow me. Then you are going to rock me like Hercules rocked Superman. Not a cheap shot at all!!!!

Superman gets elbowed out of nowhere; that's a cheap shot. Then, Superman puts his hand on Hercules' shoulder, and Hercules punches him through a wall. Are you honestly going to tell me that the fact that Superman didn't get back before KC Superman put Hercules down means that Herc beat Superman in a fight?

Yes.

Considering its not simply Superman who carries this opinion.

Word of God(s) does so as well.

Superman has x factors like sundipping, CM has x factors like dipping into Zeus' well of power.

Superman is no stronger or more durable than Billy, no matter how much finagling and second guessing is attempted, until its proven on panel directly.

Originally posted by -Pr-
There was a statement in the arc where Eclipso possessed Superman, and there was one in an older book where Marvel stated that Superman is faster, iirc. Yes, I know it was Earth 5 Captain Marvel; I was being facecious, more commenting on the "they're always portrayed as equals" thing rather than actually considering it as evidence.

Was talking about him throwing the fight in Superman/Batman, but Hawkman was there too, and we don't know what happened after that specifically.

They've been stated as relative equals, and are quite comparable. I just don't consider it outside the realm of possibility, given Superman's somewhat dynamic powerset, to put himself ahead of Billy.

Honest question: Going purely by feats, would you say that they're equal, in the same relative ball-park, or that one was superior to the other?

Which Eclipso possessed fight? Marvel's fought him twice while Superman's been possessed by Eclipso. There's also been mention in books where the two switched bodies and Superman remarked while he lost his vision and hearing based powers, he was still as fast and as strong as ever. And there was also the time where Superman was rocked by how much power Captain Marvel possesses when they shared a single body.

Concerning non-canon or non-mainstream Superman/Captain Marvel parallels, we have Kingdom Come, Justice, a huge wealth of the pre-crisis stories in which Superman only beats Captain Marvel because Marvel's power wanes while he's outside of Earth-S's native dimension. I think there's more evidence to show them being equals than Superman being clearly dominant than him, in any case.

I think Superman has the ability to amp more readily and easily than Marvel can and is overall more versatile, but the advantages Marvel does have and brings to the table evens the playing field.

Honestly? I would say they're portrayed as equals (with either one of them having several advantages over the other as far as their entire powerset/characterization goes) over all when they're directly compared to one another.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The Strength of Hercules (who Superman is stronger then) combines with the Stamina of Atlas Yes, but the strength of Hercules doesn't normally stack with the strength of Atlas, like in the aforementioned arm-wrestling example. That was Captain Marvel, needing further amping in order to match the second weakest Superman in post-Crisis history, and there's no dancing around that, I'm sorry to say.

Post the specific increases in power that Captain Marvel has experienced, and let us compare. We both know you have no case, but if it makes you feel better, go.

Here's the correct route - if Captain Marvel didn't have the direct comparisons with Superman, would you be able to prove that he is as powerful as Superman?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The Strength of Hercules stacks with the Power of Zeus, which in turn stacks with the Speed of Mercury and Stamina of AtlasYes. The stamina of Atlas. Not the strength of Atlas. Only on that ocassion, Captain Marvel was abnormally using Atlas for strength - amping beyond his normal levels, and still, he could only match one of the weakest Superman.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/CMArmWrestle1.jpg

" and I'm thinking you can't beat the strength of Heracles and Atlas combined."
If this can't sink in the third time, then I'll consider it purposely trolling, and act accordingly.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Two examples specifically include when Marvel assumed the role of the Keeper of the Rock of Eternity and again when he ascended to Lord Marvel, becoming every bit as powerful as Shazam was. Really now, Jake? What do those later versions of Marvel have to do with the versions that Superman has confronted - through different prior eras, and with Superman being at different powerlevels - and Marvel still inexplicably, within continuity, stalemating him?

Do I need to draw you a chart?

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/7008/comprehensionfail.png

In which world are the upgrades you mentioned relevant to the discussion at hand? Bizarro world?

I know your lack of arguments must be angering, but putting your fingers in your ear and going "SHUT UP CAPTAIN MARVEL HATER.DONT IGNORE WHATS ON PAGE" , when I'm explicitly not doing that, is considered trolling, no matter how coherent you may write it.

I'm not the one needing to 'get over it'.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
The Strength of Hercules stacks with the Power of Zeus, which in turn stacks with the Speed of Mercury and Stamina of Atlas and provides the extra "oomf" to the rest of Marvel's powers as the primary catalyst to them. All of his powers work together as part of a system. Not liking the fact that Captain Marvel shows that he's equal to Superman doesn't change that, I'm sorry to say. Making excuses for Superman or claiming "it's company policy for Captain Marvel to be at his level" and claiming "fanboy writers" want Captain Marvel at that level (which is...ironic, all things considered) doesn't help your argument, but you've since dropped that stance apparently as it paints your whole argument in a light that doesn't shine all that well.

Two examples specifically include when Marvel assumed the role of the Keeper of the Rock of Eternity and again when he ascended to Lord Marvel, becoming every bit as powerful as Shazam was. And the natural growth and experience he's had through the years and learning how better to tap into and control his powers. Trying to discredit them or ignore Captain Marvel's multiple instances of directly proving himself to be Superman's equal or peer doesn't make them non-existent nor does it somehow prove anything outside of "I don't like that Captain Marvel is on that level, so I'm going to complain about it".

Get over it.



so much CM hate, the original DC flying strongman.

people should accept CM is always = SM , this is the way it is ought to be.

CM would be doing all the feats SM was if he was the main DC icon.

Originally posted by ankur29
CM would be doing all the feats SM was if he was the main DC icon. If only.

http://www.radioplanet.tv/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/VanDerCry.gif

I guess you'll just have to settle with the company-policy bones DC throws at you.

Originally posted by ankur29


CM would be doing all the feats SM was if he was the main DC icon.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
on panel they are shown equal so just leave it at that period. anything else is fanboy
You really have no room whatsoever to talk about fanboyism.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
You really have no room whatsoever to talk about fanboyism. He has no room to talk period but its a free country :/

Clark and Billy are basically equals for the most part. Superman will always "shine" more, but that comes with the territory when you're talking about DC comics.

I could believe Superman having a marginal stat edge but the difference would be minor. I mean to the point it'd be more or less a stalemate in something like a contest of strength.

I treat Captain Marvel as basically Superman +. The notion pisses off Superfags to no end though.

I think having the two of them on the same planet is silly. They're both supposed to be the ultimate superhero from what I understand. That can't happen in a shared Universe. This is an iffy subject of discussion.

Does Cap have any speed feats that are comparable to Superman's higher end ones?

I can accept him being roughly equal to Superman in strength and durability.

Superman is definitly faster, as both direct and indirect comparisons atest to.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Clark and Billy are basically equals for the most part. Superman will always "shine" more, but that comes with the territory when you're talking about DC comics.

I could believe Superman having a marginal stat edge but the difference would be minor. I mean to the point it'd be more or less a stalemate in something like a contest of strength.

I treat Captain Marvel as basically Superman +. The notion pisses off Superfags to no end though.

I think having the two of them on the same planet is silly. They're both supposed to be the ultimate superhero from what I understand. That can't happen in a shared Universe. This is an iffy subject of discussion.

Reported for Superfags!!!

Yeah, I'm surprised rage has Captain Marvel that much more powerful than Thor, too.

Rick and Snapper hanging out seems to happen in pretty much every major Marvel/DC crossover.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsCaptainMarvel2.jpg Isnt that not only thor of marvel but him fused with thor of DC? essentially a 2x powerful thor

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Isnt that not only thor of marvel but him fused with thor of DC? essentially a 2x powerful thor

you just gotta love Colossus Big-C...

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Isnt that not only thor of marvel but him fused with thor of DC? essentially a 2x powerful thor

Where do you come up with this bullshit?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
Isnt that not only thor of marvel but him fused with thor of DC? essentially a 2x powerful thor

No... that was regular Thor.

Originally posted by -Pr-



Superman gets elbowed out of nowhere; that's a cheap shot. Then, Superman puts his hand on Hercules' shoulder, and Hercules punches him through a wall. Are you honestly going to tell me that the fact that Superman didn't get back before KC Superman put Hercules down means that Herc beat Superman in a fight?

Dude if you put your hands on someone know you may get hit in the face. What did superman expect him to turn around and hug him?? I never said supes lost, but Hercules did put him through a wall with no trouble.

P.S. maybe customs are different in Ireland than in the USA. If you come here NEVER just grab someone...you will get knocked out

That was actually one of the few Marvel vs. DC fights that wasn't complete crap. And lol at "fused" Thor. WTF, man?

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
Dude if you put your hands on someone know you may get hit in the face. What did superman expect him to turn around and hug him?? I never said supes lost, but Hercules did put him through a wall with no trouble.

P.S. maybe customs are different in Ireland than in the USA. If you come here NEVER just grab someone...you will get knocked out

I'm actually amused that you think Irish people aren't prone to fighting. Whether it's true or not, it's nice to see that not everyone loves that stereotype.

At least you agreed that it wasn't a fight though, which was my original point.

captian marvel is more of a peer to supes i think. they are compareable but supes is still slightly strong faster and more versitle.


slightly. I wish to emphasize the word SLIGHTLY.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That was actually one of the few Marvel vs. DC fights that wasn't complete crap. And lol at "fused" Thor. WTF, man? didnt all of dc and marvel merge due to LT and spectres actions? iirc both odin and even zeus were merged with there dc counterparts

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
didnt all of dc and marvel merge due to LT and spectres actions? iirc both odin and even zeus were merged with there dc counterparts
You're thinking of the Amalgam verse, which came after that fight.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
didnt all of dc and marvel merge due to LT and spectres actions? iirc both odin and even zeus were merged with there dc counterparts

...no.

They were "amalgamated" but the deities didn't fuse into a single deity, at least not as how you understand it. LT and Spectre were actually peons as compared to the "Brothers" in the story.

Thor merged with Orion to become Thorion.

but thats a cross between marvel and dcs thor right?

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
but thats a cross between marvel and dcs thor right?


No.

Originally posted by Omega Vision


No. yes it is

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
yes it is
Lol.

Where do you even get that idea from?

There's is literally NOTHING to support it.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Lol.

Where do you even get that idea from?

There's is literally NOTHING to support it. look up the merged thors bio

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
look up the merged thors bio
I don't need to, because it doesn't exist.

There were two Thor amalgams, Thorion and Thor-El.

You're making up shit as usual.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
So, no rebuttal about the Power of Zeus being the primary and arguably most potent and important aspect of Captain Marvel's powerset as well as the contributing factor to amplifying Cap's physical attributes across the board? Wait, what? Why would I need a rebuttal to that, when I never argued otherwise? All I argued is that him using Atlas for strength is something that puts him above his normal strength levels, and thus Superman stalemating him, in that specific instance, shows that he is stronger under normal strength levels.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Cap didn't need to "stack" Atlas and Hercules' strength to stalemate Superman arm wrestling for hours on end, either. Nor did such a technique was worth bringing up in virtually every encounter between the two before and since. Superman nearly losing his load after experiencing the Power of Shazam first hand doesn't help your case, either. So you counter-argument for Cap clearly amplifying his strength abnormally - using Atlas for strength instead of stamina - is to use instances that have nothing to do with this one, and showing that Cap inexplicably is still portrayed as being able to match Superman? Congratulations Jake, you're proving my point.

crylaugh

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
aYou asked for upgrades, I gave them to you. Seriously, you can't see why they have nothing to do with our discussion, as they take place after the topic of discussion - which is Superman stalemating an amped Captain Marvel's strength, Superman getting a huge upgrade, and Captain Marvel still illogically stalemating him afterwards prior to the upgrades you brought up?

Even after I drew you a chart that a kindergarden level would understand?

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/7008/comprehensionfail.png

This is simply amazing, Jake.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
That's fine, disagree with the portrayal, but don't try to write it off because you dislike it. Who said anything about writing it off? Stop putting words and stances in my mouth. I never argued that within continuity that's the way things stand - all I did was to argue that is was a company policy. It doesn't actually change its validity.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I'm being quite rational You can't even follow A>B>C>D type of events. ermmnone

Superman and Captain Marvel are near equals physically. Even today.

Get. Over. It.

Jesus.

Upgrades mean shit if his standing among super heroes remains the same. Who cares if he can now move a planetary sized body when a decade ago he couldn't?

Clark doesn't run around stomping past peers. If he encountered Orion, Captain Marvel, or Black Adam next Wednesday, chances are it'd be a stalemate.

He shines more than them, but that's always been the case. That comes with the territory in DC. He'll always be the number 1 hero and will get the most lip service. That was the case 10 years ago, and will be the case 10 years from now more than likely.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman and Captain Marvel are near equals physically. Even today.

Get. Over. It.

Jesus.

Upgrades mean shit if his standing among super heroes remains the same. Who cares if he can now move a planetary sized body when a decade ago he couldn't?

Clark doesn't run around stomping past peers. If he encountered Orion, Captain Marvel, or Black Adam next Wednesday, chances are it'd be a stalemate.

He shines more than them, but that's always been the case. That comes with the territory in DC. He'll always be the number 1 hero and will get the most lip service. That was the case 10 years ago, and will be the case 10 years from now more than likely.

QFT

It's always appeared to me that Superman and Captain Marvel were equals. If you add Black Adam to the equation he seems to be slightly stronger than both. Superman just has more exotic powers like heat vision, hearing ice breath etc.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
It's always appeared to me that Superman and Captain Marvel were equals. If you add Black Adam to the equation he seems to be slightly stronger than both. Superman just has more exotic powers like heat vision, hearing ice breath etc. I feel they are all pretty much equal in terms of strength. What sets Black Adam apart is his ruthlessness or ferocity.

All right everyone, back on topic please.

No more CM vs Superman stuff.

Originally posted by -Pr-
All right everyone, back on topic please.

No more CM vs Superman stuff.

Alright.

On topic, Despero should win as KC Captain Marvel showed a susceptibility to mental domination/influence.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How does that show that all when Cap's drawn him at arm wrestling before as well as directly showed to be in his strength class during actual fights? That was one and only time Cap ever had to stack Atlas and Hercules strength to match Superman; it's never been used before or since then. That bout of arm-wrestling certainly didn't show anything beyond what Captain Marvel is capable of and the argument of Cap needing Atlas' strength + Hercules' strength to match Superman is something that we'll likely never hear again.

good point , i thought this was a typo, why would he have to stack strength when Hercules's has 'always been sufficient to stalemate (of course with the power of zeus contributing) SM in the past

Guys, I'm not going to ask again.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Alright.

On topic, Despero should win as KC Captain Marvel showed a susceptibility to mental domination/influence.

this