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Should you stick to your beliefs and what you think is wrong or right 100% of the time when having a convo with someone, even when they might believe in something else ?

Or out of respect is it better to give them the anwer what they want so they dont look at you the wrong way involving a convo that links to something they are against in their religion ?


Awhile back me and my mom got into a discussion over a conversation she had with one of her catholic friends. My mom's Friend's Name is Cheryl and she is verry religious, doesnt believe in abortions or none of that.

But just recently one of our friends thats known us for many years had an abortion awhile back because she broke up with her Hubby and they were only married a month. He just ran off and Kamila didnt want to put a 2nd child in a position without a father, liker her 1st son, so she had an abortion. Cheryl asked my mom not to long ago and when is the baby due, and my mom said to cheryl that Kamila had a miscarriage instead of telling the truth and saying she got an abortion, only because sheryl is catholic and is against that. Do you think that was the best move ?

by lying to her friend about that, that means she is putting her friends beliefs over her own. I understand she did it out of respect some and didnt watn to start some arguement. But at times like that I think you should always be honest.

If I am talking about my religion to anyone or if someone ask me about my beliefs I give them the answear and don't lie to them.After all lieing just makes things worst.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
If I am talking about my religion to anyone or if someone ask me about my beliefs I give them the answear and don't lie to them.After all lieing just makes things worst. even if it might jeopardise the friendship ?

pick your battles, if you feel the need to take someone up on something, do it, but if it serves absolutly no purpose, at least take that into consideration

Lying to avoid an argument is only putting off the inevitable. At least with religious beliefs like that. You can tip toe around it if you're careful enough, but being on eggshells every time you're around the other person will not breed a very healthy relationship. Eventually, the truth is going to come out. Depending on how good of friends they are, she's likely eventually going to learn that her friend finds abortion acceptable. Better to just let her know how the she feels and talk it out. If you cannot get along with each other and the "friendship" falls apart, then you'll have to accept that and move on. Can't make everyone happy.

That's my take on it anyway.

Originally posted by chomperx9
Should you stick to your beliefs and what you think is wrong or right 100% of the time when having a convo with someone, even when they might believe in something else ?

Or out of respect is it better to give them the anwer what they want so they dont look at you the wrong way involving a convo that links to something they are against in their religion ?


Awhile back me and my mom got into a discussion over a conversation she had with one of her catholic friends. My mom's Friend's Name is Cheryl and she is verry religious, doesnt believe in abortions or none of that.

But just recently one of our friends thats known us for many years had an abortion awhile back because she broke up with her Hubby and they were only married a month. He just ran off and Kamila didnt want to put a 2nd child in a position without a father, liker her 1st son, so she had an abortion. Cheryl asked my mom not to long ago and when is the baby due, and my mom said to cheryl that Kamila had a miscarriage instead of telling the truth and saying she got an abortion, only because sheryl is catholic and is against that. Do you think that was the best move ?

by lying to her friend about that, that means she is putting her friends beliefs over her own. I understand she did it out of respect some and didnt watn to start some arguement. But at times like that I think you should always be honest.

I will never lie about my beliefs. Even if it's too a friend, hell I told my overly religious 87 year old great-grandmother that I'm atheist. If I can tell her, I can tell anyone.

Yea even if it does that.If your friend does not want to be friends because of your religion or other reasons they are not really your friend.

In that situation, I would have said that the baby died, then you wouldn't be lying. I wouldn't be avoiding it to consider her beliefs, I would be avoiding it because it wouldn't be my place to tell. If the one who had the abortion wanted her to know she had an abortion, she would tell her.

Now, I don't think you should ever lie, given, there are almost always exceptions, but in my eyes, those are all dealing with your, or someone else's lives, not someone's feelings, or the way they feel about you. Lies eat you alive, sure it would suck to have your friend hate you, but it sucks way more to hold on to something like that, and you don't know what your friend would think, or rather how she would react.

I am personally against abortion, but if a friend of mine had one, I wouldn't stop being their friend because of it, I would be disappointed in them, and I would probably voice my disappointment, but I would still support my friend, and if someone can't do that, they need to change their thinking.

Originally posted by menokokoro
In that situation, I would have said that the baby died, then you wouldn't be lying. I wouldn't be avoiding it to consider her beliefs, I would be avoiding it because it wouldn't be my place to tell. If the one who had the abortion wanted her to know she had an abortion, she would tell her.

Now, I don't think you should ever lie, given, there are almost always exceptions, but in my eyes, those are all dealing with your, or someone else's lives, not someone's feelings, or the way they feel about you. Lies eat you alive, sure it would suck to have your friend hate you, but it sucks way more to hold on to something like that, and you don't know what your friend would think, or rather how she would react.

I am personally against abortion, but if a friend of mine had one, I wouldn't stop being their friend because of it, I would be disappointed in them, and I would probably voice my disappointment, but I would still support my friend, and if someone can't do that, they need to change their thinking.

If the lie brings about a positive consequence then why would it eat at you?

Originally posted by Lucius
If the lie brings about a positive consequence then why would it eat at you? at that moment might bring positive consequences, but later on when some one finds out the truth, it hurts them more then knowing that you lied to them all that time instead of telling the truth from the begening.

Truth hurts somes times, But lies hurt more.

Originally posted by chomperx9
at that moment might bring positive consequences, but later on when some one finds out the truth, it hurts them more then knowing that you lied to them all that time instead of telling the truth from the begening.

Truth hurts somes times, But lies hurt more. Not only this, but YOU know you are lying, and it hurts you, I don't care what you say, but it does hurt, you might be callused to it, but by then the damage is done.

The idea that lies are wrong no matter what the context is absurd. We can all imagine a situation in which we would not only willingly tell a lie for some greater good, but it would result is such a better outcome with little or no consequence that we'd happily take it to our graves. Or, if you can't conceive of such a scenario, you haven't much imagination.

That said, it's just a matter of the line at which we separate good lies from bad ones, and the levels of guilt (from wracking, constant guilt to none at all) that we'd feel as a result. Obviously it's not a clear line, but there's going to be a fair number of lies that fall on the "good" side with little to no guilt. Less than the number of "bad" lies I'll grant, but that's about it.

Anyway, as a result, I have a hard time judging the lies of others. You don't know the full context, the relationship of the liar to the lie-ee, how people have reacted to the liars truths/lies in the past and how that affects their decision, etc. etc. Outside of clear and demonstrable suffering as a result of them, I have a hard time labeling a lot of lies as bad in any sense. We aren't owed the truth from people in most cases. It's considered socially unacceptable far more often than I believe it to be morally unacceptable.

Sorry but absolutes and pat little aphorisms bother me. Saying things like "lies always hurt more" is a great thing to teach children to avoid them becoming chronic liars, but we should be able to deal with life in more nuanced terms as adults. That said, I haven't the first opinion about the OP. That's not for me to decide.

There are no scenarios I can think of that a lie would be a better outcome (barring life threatening, or the equivalent, situations). But that may be that I just value the truth more than most people, but I still think that everyone would be much happier if they were always honest.

But what about when it comes to a point when you lie about an opinion on something just to be nice ? For example a girl you just started dating asks you if you like the dress, sure probably everyone here is gonna say yes even though you might think its out dated or makes her look more fat or the dress sucks.
do you think its ok to lie during a time like that ?

Originally posted by chomperx9
But what about when it comes to a point when you lie about an opinion on something just to be nice ? For example a girl you just started dating asks you if you like the dress, sure probably everyone here is gonna say yes even though you might think its out dated or makes her look more fat or the dress sucks.
do you think its ok to lie during a time like that ? Hmm...you may have gotten me on that one, but I don't know actually, I haven't been in that situation, I may (and wouldn't you think this would be the reason they ask anyway?) just take it as a legitimate question of weather or not she should wear the dress, because I liked it, and answer honestly. If she doesn't like the answer, then that sux, but at least she knows how I feel about the dress, and it is just a dress, not like it matters at all. She might be mad for a little bit, then when she realizes that what I said was just being honest, and reasonable, then it will be all ok. And if not...I probably wouldn't want to be dating her anyway.

Originally posted by menokokoro
There are no scenarios I can think of that a lie would be a better outcome (barring life threatening, or the equivalent, situations). But that may be that I just value the truth more than most people, but I still think that everyone would be much happier if they were always honest.

One word: Lawyers.

Lying is literally how they keep the heat on, put food on the table, and clothes on their kids' backs.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
One word: Lawyers.

Lying is literally how they keep the heat on, put food on the table, and clothes on their kids' backs.

Well, to be fair, that doesn't mean that lying is good in their case. Any number of examples can be shown of people who do evil to make money and the same thing could be said about them. They're just trying to put food on the table for their kids...

The argument could then be made that Lawyers need to find a new way to support their family. It isn't like they are being forcd to be lawyers.

Just to be clear. I'm not saying Lawyers are evil, I'm just saying they don't provide a valid example of a "good" lie situation.

Originally posted by menokokoro
In that situation, I would have said that the baby died, then you wouldn't be lying. I wouldn't be avoiding it to consider her beliefs, I would be avoiding it because it wouldn't be my place to tell. If the one who had the abortion wanted her to know she had an abortion, she would tell her.

Now, I don't think you should ever lie, given, there are almost always exceptions, but in my eyes, those are all dealing with your, or someone else's lives, not someone's feelings, or the way they feel about you. Lies eat you alive, sure it would suck to have your friend hate you, but it sucks way more to hold on to something like that, and you don't know what your friend would think, or rather how she would react.

I am personally against abortion, but if a friend of mine had one, I wouldn't stop being their friend because of it, I would be disappointed in them, and I would probably voice my disappointment, but I would still support my friend, and if someone can't do that, they need to change their thinking.

I would stop being friends with my friend if she had an abortion.It is just something that I can't stand and the friend would be like a different person to me.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I would stop being friends with my friend if she had an abortion.It is just something that I can't stand and the friend would be like a different person to me. but that would be her personal decision, It would be wrong for a friend to stop being friends with you, if you started a Relationship with a guy that your friend couldnt stand.

your friends arent always going to make the choices that you make, thats for sure.

Originally posted by menokokoro
There are no scenarios I can think of that a lie would be a better outcome (barring life threatening, or the equivalent, situations). But that may be that I just value the truth more than most people, but I still think that everyone would be much happier if they were always honest.

Originally posted by Digi
Or, if you can't conceive of such a scenario, you haven't much imagination.

Santa Claus

EDIT: any time you tell a telemarketer you are busy

Originally posted by menokokoro
but I still think that everyone would be much happier if they were always honest.

a friend comes to you with something they are proud of, but you don't think it is very good. Obviously you don't want to heap undue praise on it, but you would be against phrasing constructive criticism in a positive light?

your need for truth would have you belittle and criticize their work?

the ability to not be entirely honest is actually critical to our existence as social animals... Hell, you could reframe any time you aren't just oggling pretty girls into a dishonesty to your own feelings, thus, you must act like a creeper on the bus, else you are lying to yourself

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm not saying Lawyers are evil, I'm just saying they don't provide a valid example of a "good" lie situation.

totally depends on how you define good

it is certainly good for the lawyer

Originally posted by chomperx9
Should you stick to your beliefs and what you think is wrong or right 100% of the time when having a convo with someone, even when they might believe in something else ?

Or out of respect is it better to give them the anwer what they want so they dont look at you the wrong way involving a convo that links to something they are against in their religion ?


Awhile back me and my mom got into a discussion over a conversation she had with one of her catholic friends. My mom's Friend's Name is Cheryl and she is verry religious, doesnt believe in abortions or none of that.

But just recently one of our friends thats known us for many years had an abortion awhile back because she broke up with her Hubby and they were only married a month. He just ran off and Kamila didnt want to put a 2nd child in a position without a father, liker her 1st son, so she had an abortion. Cheryl asked my mom not to long ago and when is the baby due, and my mom said to cheryl that Kamila had a miscarriage instead of telling the truth and saying she got an abortion, only because sheryl is catholic and is against that. Do you think that was the best move ?

by lying to her friend about that, that means she is putting her friends beliefs over her own. I understand she did it out of respect some and didnt watn to start some arguement. But at times like that I think you should always be honest.

Constant development is the law of life, and a man who always tries to maintain his dogmas in order to appear consistent drives himself into a false position.
-Ghandi

Originally posted by inimalist
a friend comes to you with something they are proud of, but you don't think it is very good. Obviously you don't want to heap undue praise on it, but you would be against phrasing constructive criticism in a positive light?

your need for truth would have you belittle and criticize their work?

the ability to not be entirely honest is actually critical to our existence as social animals... Hell, you could reframe any time you aren't just oggling pretty girls into a dishonesty to your own feelings, thus, you must act like a creeper on the bus, else you are lying to yourself Weather I think it is good or not is irrelevant, he/she is proud of it, and that is great. Now, if I have something I could say to potentially help him/her, then I would say it, I wouldn't be rude, but I wouldn't outright lie to them.

You might think of it as "belittling" but in all honesty, if everyone was "nice" because they didn't want to hurt their feelings, nothing would get done, or everything would be big piles of crap.

I'm not sure I follow your point with the girls...are you saying that...no, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Originally posted by menokokoro
There are no scenarios I can think of that a lie would be a better outcome (barring life threatening, or the equivalent, situations). But that may be that I just value the truth more than most people, but I still think that everyone would be much happier if they were always honest.

I value truth, and also agree that people would be happier if they were always honest. Neither of those points changes my stance though. Saying that all lies are bad is childish, imo. Plenty of real-world examples have been given, and if we extend it to hypothetical situations where we can take the unlikely but technically possible (i.e. a small lie to, say, a mob boss = a small child living as opposed to dying for petty theft) then it becomes even more clear. The distinction becomes where you draw the line, not whether or not it's good/bad to always tell the truth.

Originally posted by Digi
I value truth, and also agree that people would be happier if they were always honest. Neither of those points changes my stance though. Saying that all lies are bad is childish, imo. Plenty of real-world examples have been given, and if we extend it to hypothetical situations where we can take the unlikely but technically possible (i.e. a small lie to, say, a mob boss = a small child living as opposed to dying for petty theft) then it becomes even more clear. The distinction becomes where you draw the line, not whether or not it's good/bad to always tell the truth. Well, your definition of "bad" is obviously different than mine. Not all lies will "hurt" anyone, but I do believe that it does hurt you mentally, and spiritually, and that is bad, in my mind. Just wanted to clarify where I'm coming from

Originally posted by menokokoro
Well, your definition of "bad" is obviously different than mine. Not all lies will "hurt" anyone, but I do believe that it does hurt you mentally, and spiritually, and that is bad, in my mind. Just wanted to clarify where I'm coming from

Explain to me how lying to a mob boss about a small theft to save a girl's life hurts you spiritually.

Like I said, we're not dealing in black & white here. Because if lying in that scenario is bad, or is mentally hurtful to you, there's something wrong with your worldview. "Lying is always bad" is needlessly dogmatic and dangerous, imo.

Too much Herr Kant in this thread.

Originally posted by inimalist
totally depends on how you define good

it is certainly good for the lawyer

I'm taking it from a general understanding of good and bad. I don't know how the person asking the question defines it.

This lawyer hate is ridiculous. Plenty of lawyers have spent their career fighting for good in court.

Originally posted by menokokoro
I'm not sure I follow your point with the girls...are you saying that...no, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

depending on what you call a lie, certain social norms could be considered "dishonesty"

Originally posted by King Kandy
This lawyer hate is ridiculous. Plenty of lawyers have spent their career fighting for good in court.

no lawyer has ever defended human rights

/fact

Originally posted by inimalist
no lawyer has ever defended human rights

/fact
can't tell if serious.

Originally posted by Digi
Explain to me how lying to a mob boss about a small theft to save a girl's life hurts you spiritually.

Like I said, we're not dealing in black & white here. Because if lying in that scenario is bad, or is mentally hurtful to you, there's something wrong with your worldview. "Lying is always bad" is needlessly dogmatic and dangerous, imo. You must have missed where I said that life/death situations are acceptable.

Originally posted by menokokoro
You must have missed where I said that life/death situations are acceptable.
What if the girl will only be brutally tortured?

Originally posted by King Kandy
can't tell if serious.

rly?

Originally posted by menokokoro
barring life threatening, or the equivalent, situations Now, what I mean by "or the equivalent" is the equivalent as far as a moral guideline.

Originally posted by inimalist
rly?

Yes Really because it was such a rediculous interjection.

Originally posted by inimalist
EDIT: any time you tell a telemarketer you are busy

My favorite scenario about "lies". I usually tell them I have plenty of time but don't give even a tiny little shit about what they are selling. I wish them luck with the next person.


This also works when people call me to help someone move that I do not know. I usually say I have time but want to spend it other places like sleeping in my bed or with my family.


See...telling the truth ain't so bad. It's just that people might say, "oh, there goes that callused ***hole." If they say that, they don't know me. If they don't know me, I'm obviously not going to care.

Originally posted by chomperx9
I understand she did it out of respect some and didnt watn to start some arguement. But at times like that I think you should always be honest. To be honest in a situation like this would cause a person to feel judged and possibly ruin the relationship.

I agree honesty is best but not in all situations. People just can't take it and get defensive.

Originally posted by chomperx9
but that would be her personal decision, It would be wrong for a friend to stop being friends with you, if you started a Relationship with a guy that your friend couldnt stand.

your friends arent always going to make the choices that you make, thats for sure.

No but I just would not be able to look at her the same if she did that.It is just how I am.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Now, what I mean by "or the equivalent" is the equivalent as far as a moral guideline.

What if she only gets slightly tortured?

Originally posted by dadudemon
This also works when people call me to help someone move that I do not know. I usually say I have time but want to spend it other places like sleeping in my bed or with my family.

Eww, don't sleep with your family, it's illegal!!!

Originally posted by Samurai4Hire
Yes Really because it was such a rediculous interjection.

the ridiculousness of it made it harder for you to tell if I was being serious?

so, for you, the more ridiculous something is, the more likely someone is being serious?

Originally posted by Bardock42
What if she only gets slightly tortured? Morally equivalent could be anything to avoid someone else to avoid unnecessary harm and or death.

Originally posted by menokokoro
Now, what I mean by "or the equivalent" is the equivalent as far as a moral guideline.
What do you consider the equivalent?

Originally posted by menokokoro
You must have missed where I said that life/death situations are acceptable.

Then there are acceptable lies. That was my point. And I assume you'd be ok with the lie if it only meant a severe beating for the girl, not death.

Now maybe it's just a stern warning. Then is the lie wrong? Much closer to being wrong, at least. But what if she's stealing food for her starving sister? You hopefully begin to see my point.

It then becomes a matter of where the line is drawn, not if lies are bad as an absolute.

Originally posted by Digi
Then there are acceptable lies. That was my point. And I assume you'd be ok with the lie if it only meant a severe beating for the girl, not death.

Now maybe it's just a stern warning. Then is the lie wrong? Much closer to being wrong, at least. But what if she's stealing food for her starving sister? You hopefully begin to see my point.

It then becomes a matter of where the line is drawn, not if lies are bad as an absolute. yeah, I see your point. I was thinking more white lies, but yeah, there ARE acceptable lies.