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Silver Surfer
Gladiator (Max Confidence)
The Runner with Space Gem
Nova with World Mind
Sentry


vs.


Superman
Zoom
Orion(With AF and MB)
Infinity Man before upgrade
Light Ray at best.


Now what would happen in a fight like this if everyone was using their speed AND powers to get the win? No wonky stuff like weakness expoitation. No BFR.

Depends. Zoom is much, much faster than anyone on the Marvel team, where pure speed is concerned -- thus he could potentially deal out the most amount of damage, in the least amount of time. However, he also needs to have a physical battlefield under him to be effective (unlike Flash who can run in space if need be.) That said, if any of the Marvelites take to the air, Zoom's effectiveness drastically lessens.

Even w/o Zoom, the DC team would still have the speed to cope with Runner, but it would be a lot more difficult (especially if he has a decent amount of control over the gem?)

Originally posted by Galan007
Depends. Zoom is much, much faster than anyone on the Marvel team, where pure speed is concerned -- thus he could potentially deal out the most amount of damage, in the least amount of time. However, he also needs to have a physical battlefield under him to be effective (unlike Flash who can run in space if need be.) That said, if any of the Marvelites take to the air, Zoom's effectiveness drastically lessens.

Even w/o Zoom, the DC team would still have the speed to cope with Runner, but it would be a lot more difficult (especially if he has a decent amount of control over the gem?) Zoom is faster than the Runner? I didn't think anyone was faster than the Runner with Gem.

Where pure speed is concerned (ie. sans teleportation) Zoom is the fastest character that has ever been in comics.

...With the *possible* exception of Azrael 1M.

Originally posted by Galan007
Where pure speed is concerned (ie. sans teleportation) Zoom is the fastest character that has ever been in comics.

...With the *possible* exception of Azrael 1M. Ok. Maybe Zoom is too much for this thread then.

Googleme do you mind if I make a suggestion?

Zoom is more of a time manip deal than just raw speed no? I would suggest adding either terrigan mist Quicksilver or at the very least, Timeslip -who is Zoom lite-.

Originally posted by dmills
Googleme do you mind if I make a suggestion?

Zoom is more of a time manip deal than just raw speed no? I would suggest adding either terrigan mist Quicksilver or at the very least, Timeslip -who is Zoom lite-. It wont' let me add them.

Naw zoom is fastest on a regular basis but flash Bart/Wally/Barry has the potential to be faster. That said Zooms most dangerous ability is that he can time stop for every speedster on his team and have them able to go as fast as they do under the influence of time stop which makes him utterly beast on support.

I'm actually going to say team 1.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Naw zoom is fastest on a regular basis but flash Bart/Wally/Barry has the potential to be faster. Bart had to literally become the speed force before he was on Zoom's level. Aside from that, no other member of the Flash family can even compare to him.

Originally posted by googleme
It wont' let me add them. You'll have to ask a mod to do it for you. I'm sure that either Pr or badabing would help you. Swap out Sentry because both he and Glads are basically Supes archetypes, so you really only need one.

Close call. Probably a toss up.

Team 1. Runner with Space Gem is a Beast and his aura will affect those who want to attack him.

Zoom Vs Runner w/spacegem = buypile

Originally posted by Galan007
Bart had to literally become the speed force before he was on Zoom's level. Aside from that, no other member of the Flash family can even compare to him. Then again Zoom tends to act as Flash kryptonite... Flash has performed at speed level near/at infinity during some of the issues where races rather than fights.

Le sigh

Originally posted by Uriel005
Then again Zoom tends to act as Flash kryptonite... Flash has performed at speed level near/at infinity during some of the issues where races rather than fights. Please do not even attempt to argue that Flash's raw speed > Zoom's.

Flash is nothing in comparison, as shown time and time again.

Originally posted by Galan007
Please do not even attempt to argue that Flash's raw speed > Zoom's.

Flash is nothing in comparison, as shown time and time again.

But Zoom isn't a speedster. He's manipulating the flow of time around himself to make it APPEAR as if he has super speed.

This is academic if you don't have the ability to alter how you travel through or perceive time, though for this fight surfer's abilities DO extend to time manipulation, and runner's abilities are compressing and altering space to enhance speed.

Zoom is NOT demonstrably faster than those two due to how his powers work.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
But Zoom isn't a speedster. He's manipulating the flow of time around himself to make it APPEAR as if he has super speed.

This is academic if you don't have the ability to alter how you travel through or perceive time, though for this fight surfer's abilities DO extend to time manipulation, and runner's abilities are compressing and altering space to enhance speed.

Zoom is NOT demonstrably faster than those two due to how his powers work. I'm talking about -relative- speed... And in that regard, Zoom is FAR faster than Flash. That is incontrovertible.

Originally posted by Galan007
I'm talking about -relative- speed... And in that regard, Zoom is FAR faster than Flash. That is incontrovertible.

Sure. I wasn't debating that. recall that I said that if one does not have the ability to alter their movement through or perception of time, the distinction between what Zoom does and a true speedster is academic.

Zoom is faster than Flash- period. Not debating that.

What I WAS saying is that just because Zoom is faster than flash does not mean his powers will give him the same advantage against team marvel, since Surfer can manipulate the timestream (potentially negating or reducing the effectiveness of what Zoom does) and Runner is expanding and compressing space to enhance his speed.

for example- in terms of relative speed, if 1000 miles of distance for you is the same distance as 1 inch for me because I'm compressing space- who is faster?

Originally posted by Galan007
That is incontrovertible. http://goteaminternet.com/img/docs/65991.jpg

Originally posted by Space M ummy
What I WAS saying is that just because Zoom is faster than flash does not mean his powers will give him the same advantage against team marvel, since Surfer can manipulate the timestream (potentially negating or reducing the effectiveness of what Zoom does) and Runner is expanding and compressing space to enhance his speed.

for example- in terms of relative speed, if 1000 miles of distance for you is the same distance as 1 inch for me because I'm compressing space- who is faster? Therein lies the problem.

Zoom naturally exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, because he lives in his own separate time-bubble, which is disconnected from the timeline, but can still slide along it. Therefore it is impossible for anyone on the Marvel team to react faster than him, because they are all held by parameters of mainstream time... Team Marvel would be statues in comparison to Zoom, just as an amped Wally and Superman were.

Originally posted by Galan007
Therein lies the problem.

Zoom naturally exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, because he lives in his own separate time-bubble, which is disconnected from the timeline, but can still slide along it. Therefore it is impossible for anyone on the Marvel team to react faster than him, because they are all held by parameters of mainstream time... Team Marvel would be statues in comparison to Zoom, just as an amped Wally and Superman were. Even the guy who has complete control over space?

a.) Runner never displayed 'complete control over space' with the space gem. Subconscious teleportation was his best feat with it, iirc.

b.) Complete control over time (ie. the time gem), would be MUCH more effective vs. Zoom.

Originally posted by Galan007
Therein lies the problem.

Zoom naturally exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, because he lives in his own separate time-bubble, which is disconnected from the timeline, but can still slide along it. Therefore it is impossible for anyone on the Marvel team to react faster than him, because they are all held by parameters of mainstream time... Team Marvel would be statues in comparison to Zoom, just as an amped Wally and Superman were.

Surfer has the ability to move forwards, backwards or even across (I don't know what this means) the current timestream. There's a scan in the respect thread of him rolling back time locally to perceive events that happened prior to his arrival.

neither Wally or Superman can manipulate time in that manner.

As for Zoom, I was of the impression that this was more in line with how his powers worked (yes, I got this from wiki, because finding a clear explanation is headache inducing)



if he were always permanently "ahead" of the current timeline, he wouldn't be able to interact with it! What he's doing is altering the speed at which time flows around himself- so he still interacts with those in the present, but his actions appear far faster, since 1 second from superman or wally's perspective might be 10 or 20 minutes for Zoom to act. (thereby enabling him to hit hundreds and hundreds of times within that space)

Now assuming that's the case, if time is flowing faster for you, giving you more time to act, but the space you need to travel across in that time frame is FARTHER for you than it is for me, who is faster? It's impossible to say without knowing the absolute limits of what zoom or the space gem can do.

Can the space gem expand/compress space thousands of times over? millions of times over? is zoom increasing the flow of time hundreds of times? thousands?

Originally posted by Galan007
a.) Runner never displayed 'complete control over space' with the space gem. Subconscious teleportation was his best feat with it, iirc.

b.) Complete control over time (ie. the time gem), would be MUCH more effective vs. Zoom. Well I was just assuming he actually knew how to use it in this fight. In a forum fight where someone is given the gem you never assume they don't know how to use it.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Well I was just assuming he actually knew how to use it in this fight. In a forum fight where someone is given the gem you never assume they don't know how to use it.

I assume since Thanos explained to him...painfully..in detail how the gem worked and what it was doing, that runner has some idea of how to use it, but even subconciously it's going to make him as fast as he needs to be by manipulating space around him.

remember, runner was crossing interstellar distances without realizing it. The gem's ability to move an object through space is pretty substantial.

Jay gave an explanation regarding how Zoom's powers work -- as did Zoom himself. BOTH state that Zoom exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, in his own bubble of time. Wiki is wrong in this case.

Furthermore, unless you think that anyone on the Marvel team can react faster than an AMPED Wally, then they wouldn't even begin to approach Zoom's speed -- as even after Wally was amped, he was still a slow feeb in comparison to Zoom.

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Well I was just assuming he actually knew how to use it in this fight. In a forum fight where someone is given the gem you never assume they don't know how to use it. Why would I assume Runner has more control over the space gem in this thread, then he ever displayed on panel?

That's setting yourself up for purely opinion-based debating, right there.

Originally posted by Galan007
Why would I assume Runner has more control over the space gem in this thread, then he ever displayed on panel?

That's setting yourself up for purely opinion-based debating, right there. Well in any fight where someone is given the gem no one ever brings up the fact that they don't know how to use it. they just go with it assuming they do.

Wouldn't that be the point here?

Originally posted by Black bolt z
Well in any fight where someone is given the gem no one ever brings up the fact that they don't know how to use it. they just go with it assuming they do.

Wouldn't that be the point here? You think the point was to have Runner using the gem to its max, despite him not having a clue how to use it when it was in his possession?

I disagree entirely.

Originally posted by Galan007
You think the point was to have Runner using the gem to its max, despite him not having a clue how to use it when it was in his possession?

I disagree entirely. Not to the max, but not not knowing how to use it at all like he did before.

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/6037/zoomspeed.th.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Jay gave an explanation regarding how Zoom's powers work -- as did Zoom himself. BOTH state that Zoom exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, in his own bubble of time. Wiki is wrong in this case.

Furthermore, unless you think that anyone on the Marvel team can react faster than an AMPED Wally, then they wouldn't even begin to approach Zoom's speed -- as even after Wally was amped, he was still a slow feeb in comparison to Zoom.

I'd like to see a scan that clears it up, since I've had difficulty finding a concrete source on that. Again, if i'm literally "ahead" of you in the timestream, I won't be able to interact with you, and clearly zoom does interact with those in the current timeline.

edit: the scan posted above seems to back me up here. Zoom isn't "ahead" in the timeline, his own personal timeline moves at a different speed, which he controls. So time for him can move far faster OR far slower depending on how he wills it. Wiki appears to be RIGHT here.

but as for speed-

Surfer was able to conduct a thorough search of the entire planet's surface in a matter of seconds- no more than 2 or 3. That's 57,506,000 square miles. easily hundreds of times light speed. And remember that Surfer's board has a separate power source and surfer expends no energy traveling with it.

EVEN given that, his speed was nothing to a runner without the gem equipped. Runner slowed himself down to fight with surfer in their fight, and you have a space gem equipped runner here, who is far faster. Either one of those two is on or above wally's level, amped or not.

see above

The space gem can easily manipulate space and therefore distance to whatever means the wielder wants. It doesn't just give teleportation powers, it allows the user to manipulate the very fabric of space itself. To quote Thanos on the space gem, "Distance becomes a mere intellectual concept", without distance speed is meaningless.

E.g., the formula for speed:

Speed (V) = Total Distance Traveled / Total Time Taken = d/t

If distance was made zero, then speed will always equal zero. A wielder of the space gem could easily just nullify distance (i.e., make it zero), and speed itself becomes irrelevant in the battle.

This is assuming Runner in this fight knows how to wield the gem.

Originally posted by vince_slice
The space gem can easily manipulate space and therefore distance to whatever means the wielder wants. It doesn't just give teleportation powers, it allows the user to manipulate the very fabric of space itself. To quote Thanos on the space gem, "Distance becomes a mere intellectual concept", without distance speed is meaningless.

E.g., the formula for speed:

Speed (V) = Total Distance Traveled / Total Time Taken = d/t

If distance was made zero, then speed will always equal zero. A wielder of the space gem could easily just nullify distance (i.e., make it zero), and speed itself becomes irrelevant in the battle.

This is assuming Runner in this fight knows how to wield the gem.

exactly. used to it's full capacity runner would annihilate the entire DC team by himself.

But, it's not fair to assume that runner will be able to use it this way- Thanos explained how he was using the gem so its reasonable to assume he knows HOW he was appearing to places "instantaneously" now (before, he really didn't know) but it may not be reasonable to assume he's going to be performing advanced manipulation of space with it.

Thanos or Warlock with the gem would dominate here though, no question.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
I'd like to see a scan that clears it up, since I've had difficulty finding a concrete source on that. Again, if i'm literally "ahead" of you in the timestream, I won't be able to interact with you, and clearly zoom does interact with those in the current timeline.

edit: the scan posted above seems to back me up here. Zoom isn't "ahead" in the timeline, his own personal timeline moves at a different speed, which he controls. So time for him can move far faster OR far slower depending on how he wills it. Wiki appears to be RIGHT here.

but as for speed-

Surfer was able to conduct a thorough search of the entire planet's surface in a matter of seconds- no more than 2 or 3. That's 57,506,000 square miles. easily hundreds of times light speed. And remember that Surfer's board has a separate power source and surfer expends no energy traveling with it.

EVEN given that, his speed was nothing to a runner without the gem equipped. Runner slowed himself down to fight with surfer in their fight, and you have a space gem equipped runner here, who is far faster. Either one of those two is on or above wally's level, amped or not. I've posted the scans multiple times. I've even posted them in the respect thread. They shouldn't be hard to find. Wiki is VERY FAR from right -- but if you'd like to keep using its info as though it supersedes on panel statements, then go right ahead.

Runner besting Surfer does NOT lead me to believe he is Flash-level... Let alone AMPED Flash-level... Let alone Zoom-level. Through most of that battle, Runner's "likable aura" was hindering Surfer.

Originally posted by Galan007
I've posted the scans multiple times. I've even posted them in the respect thread. They shouldn't be hard to find. Wiki is VERY FAR from right -- but if you'd like to keep using its info as though it supersedes on panel statements, then go right ahead.

Runner besting Surfer does NOT lead me to believe he is Flash-level... Let alone AMPED Flash-level... Let alone Zoom-level. Through most of that battle, Runner's "likable aura" was hindering Surfer.

The scan that's posted above is in line with wiki's definition, and not what your definition is.

And remember that runner SLOWED HIMSELF DOWN prior to engaging surfer in battle- surfer was too slow to catch him. The euphoric effect hadn't even begun to take effect.

and how is 57 million square miles in a couple of seconds not "flash level?"

Can you prove the method Surfer used when scanning that area is to physically use his eyes and limbs, instead of the high-end cosmic senses and awareness?

Originally posted by Space M ummy
The scan that's posted above is in line with wiki's definition, and not what your definition is.

And remember that runner SLOWED HIMSELF DOWN prior to engaging surfer in battle- surfer was too slow to catch him.

and how is 57 million square miles in a couple of seconds not "flash level?" Him being "removed from time" destroys Wiki's write-up. Like you said: if he is removed from time, how can he interact with other characters? Answer: it's a comic, and RW rules do not apply.

Like I said above: During almost the entire Runner/Surfer confrontation, Runner's "likable aura" was preventing Surfer from going all out.

Originally posted by Galan007
Him being "removed from time" destroys Wiki's write-up. Like you said: if he is removed from time, how can he interact with other characters? Answer: it's a comic, and RW rules do not apply.

Like I said above: During almost the entire Runner/Surfer confrontation, Runner's "likable aura" was preventing Surfer from going all out.

And here I disagree. In the posted scan, Zoom says: "my personal timeline is removed from this one. I control how fast or slow I move along it." By no means does that destroy wiki's writeup, instead it reinforces it.

period. nothing about being permanently ahead of this timeline, as was your assertion.

and as I tried to point out, Runner had to slow himself down to engage the surfer. the likable aura hadn't even taken effect.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
period. nothing about being permanently ahead of this timeline, as was your assertion. If your in a different timeline and want to be present in another one but still move faster than people in it, there's only one explanation: You slow down to move in it.

Originally posted by Galan007
Jay gave an explanation regarding how Zoom's powers work -- as did Zoom himself. BOTH state that Zoom exists ahead of the mainstream timeline, in his own bubble of time. Wiki is wrong in this case.

Furthermore, unless you think that anyone on the Marvel team can react faster than an AMPED Wally, then they wouldn't even begin to approach Zoom's speed -- as even after Wally was amped, he was still a slow feeb in comparison to Zoom.

Thank you. Zoom should be able to destroy most of MU.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Thank you. Zoom should be able to destroy most of MU. Which is why unless you swap out someone on team Marvel for either TM Quicksilver or Timeslip, DC takes this handily. Zooms time abilities are too much.

Originally posted by dmills
Which is why unless you swap out someone on team Marvel for either TM Quicksilver or Timeslip, DC takes this handily. Zooms time abilities are too much.

Just wait, Professor Zoom is gonna make Zoom look like a non threat.

Originally posted by dmills
Which is why unless you swap out someone on team Marvel for either TM Quicksilver or Timeslip, DC takes this handily. Zooms time abilities are too much. I don't know if Zoom would be enough to take this by himself, but he can certainly react/blitz at speeds WELL beyond what anyone on the Marvel team can muster.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
And here I disagree. In the posted scan, Zoom says: "my personal timeline is removed from this one. I control how fast or slow I move along it." By no means does that destroy wiki's writeup, instead it reinforces it.

period. nothing about being permanently ahead of this timeline, as was your assertion.

and as I tried to point out, Runner had to slow himself down to engage the surfer. the likable aura hadn't even taken effect. Like I said, I've posted the scans multiple times. Shouldn't be hard to find them.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like I said, I've posted the scans multiple times. Shouldn't be hard to find them.

and this means what, exactly? that this bubble is "ahead" and moving faster? or the location of this bubble means no one will ever catch up to it, and zoom is totally untouchable by anyone, ever? I've seen the scan, but I disagree about your interpretation.

I'm going with definition 1, especially since that definition (zoom's personal time line is "ahead" in the sense it moves faster than mainstream time) is in line with how I've seen him use his abilities, as well as zoom's claim that he can speed up OR slow down his personal timeline.

but we're getting off track.

Zoom has to be able to interact within the same space as everyone else, or he would literally not be able to touch anyone. agreed? he's just moving faster.

now what does his speed mean versus an opponent for whom the concept of distance is meaningless and malleable? being able to move 10,000 miles in a second is nothing, if your opponent can reduce a million miles in the same time by compressing space.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't know if Zoom would be enough to take this by himself, but he can certainly react/blitz at speeds WELL beyond what anyone on the Marvel team can muster. Oh I'm not suggesting that he could, I just think that his abilities are hard to overcome without some serious mental gymnastics, although I think someone suggested earlier that taking to the air would render him all but useless during the battle.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
now what does his speed mean versus an opponent for whom the concept of distance is meaningless and malleable? being able to move 10,000 miles in a second is nothing, if your opponent can reduce a million miles in the same time by compressing space. This isn't a foot race, it's a battle. Unless there is definitive -proof- that anyone on the Marvel team can match Zoom in that department (ie. perception/reaction), then I have no reason to believe they can.

I didn't respond to the rest because I just had this same discussion a week or so ago, and I'm still burnt out from the circular arguments that were formed.

Originally posted by Galan007
This isn't a foot race, it's a battle. Unless there is definitive -proof- that anyone on the Marvel team can match Zoom in that department (ie. perception/reaction), then I have no reason to believe they can.

I didn't respond to the rest because I just had this same discussion a week or so ago, and I'm still burnt out from the circular arguments that were formed.

foot race or battle, its all the same thing. If I'm controlling space and want to be faster than you, I can expand space for you and contract it for me- making the distance from your fist to my face a thousand miles instead of a few inches, or hell, punch in a completely unrelated direction and still hit you, because I'm warping space to reach where I want to.

but I agree, this is a difficult and pointless argument to have, and I do have elsewhere to be. Good talk.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
foot race or battle, its all the same thing. If I'm controlling space and want to be faster than you, I can expand space for you and contract it for me- making the distance from your fist to my face a thousand miles instead of a few inches, or hell, punch in a completely unrelated direction and still hit you, because I'm warping space to reach where I want to.

but I agree, this is a difficult and pointless argument to have, and I do have elsewhere to be. Good talk. If Zoom hits Runner multiple times before he has enough time to activate those abilities, then they aren't much good... Hence my 'reaction/perception speed' comment(s).

Have a good one.