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Dark Avengers VS Justice League

no prep. fight is in the negative zone at night.

iron patriot
the void
daken
moonstone
hawkeye
venom
protector
ares

superman
wonder woman
gl-hal
batman
mm-jonz
hawkman
aquaman

This very rapidly turns into the Void vs the JLA, most of the Dark Avengers are chumps (like, send Hal to handle everyone else, then join in the rest when he's done). And I think collectively they could handle it.

Originally posted by Q99
This very rapidly turns into the Void vs the JLA, most of the Dark Avengers are chumps (like, send Hal to handle everyone else, then join in the rest when he's done). And I think collectively they could handle it.


Not entirely Void is capable of taking WW, Hal and Superman at the same time.

Hawkeye could take out Aquaman or Hawkman, Daken could take out Batman....oh shit MM is there.

Originally posted by Deadline
Not entirely Void is capable of taking WW, Hal and Superman at the same time.

Hawkeye could take out Aquaman or Hawkman, Daken could take out Batman....oh shit MM is there. Hawkeye beats Aquaman? lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
Hawkeye beats Aquaman? lol.

Didn't I see Batman pawning Aquaman in h2h? Can't Hawkeye get him the eye? Meh guess thats the only thing you could get from my post.

A lot of the Avengers are straight up cannon fodder.

I agree with Q; this pretty much turns out to be Void vs. the JLA. The JLA takes it.

JLA win.

I dunno I'm not so sure.

Originally posted by Deadline
Didn't I see Batman pawning Aquaman in h2h? Can't Hawkeye get him the eye? Meh guess thats the only thing you could get from my post. Batman beats Hawkeye too. What's your point? He beats just about every hero or villain he collides with, regardless of plausibility. That's why people don't like debating the Batman, but instead debate 'normal human' vs other character. Because when we use what Batman actually does, he's a herald leveler at least.

Have you every read any Aquaman? The guy is powerful as shit.

Originally posted by Juntai
Batman beats Hawkeye too. What's your point?


I dunno did you notice how I put Daken up against Batman?

Originally posted by Juntai

He beats just about every hero or villain he collides with, regardless of plausibility. That's why people don't like debating the Batman, but instead debate 'normal human' vs other character. Because when we use what Batman actually does, he's a herald leveler at least.


I agree with you to an extent but not Superman.


Originally posted by Juntai


Have you every read any Aquaman? The guy is powerful as shit.

Only under JLA sue me.

Originally posted by Juntai
Batman beats Hawkeye too. What's your point? He beats just about every hero or villain he collides with, regardless of plausibility. That's why people don't like debating the Batman, but instead debate 'normal human' vs other character. Because when we use what Batman actually does, he's a herald leveler at least.

Have you every read any Aquaman? The guy is powerful as shit. no, we just exclude pis and take the limtis of batman's skills and equipment, and his defeats into consideration when debating him.

This is straight up Void vs the Justice League...

Supes could rapidly defeat everyone else while the rest of the League keeps Void busy then come and join in the fight...

Justice League defeats Void btw...

Originally posted by Deadline
Only under JLA sue me. Aquaman is a monster. There's a reason he was on the big 7.

Originally posted by 753
no, we just exclude pis and take the limtis of batman's skills and equipment, and his defeats into consideration when debating him. Sure.

I call it, "inventing my own idea of a character, rather than the one portrayed", but to each his own.

Originally posted by Juntai
Aquaman is a monster. There's a reason he was on the big 7.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
This is straight up Void vs the Justice League...

Supes could rapidly defeat everyone else while the rest of the League keeps Void busy then come and join in the fight...

Justice League defeats Void btw...

Supes will be fighting The Void at the beginning of the fight.

Originally posted by Juntai
Sure.

I call it, "inventing my own idea of a character, rather than the one portrayed", but to each his own. yeah, but not really.

you see, batman's pis victories rely on his more powerfull opponents being abnormaly stupid or on absurd scenarios that are implausible even by comic book standards. furthermore, it does not really matter who batman defeated, what matters is what he actually did to defeat them and so we arrive at the conclusion that most of that crap wouldnt work on the forums against much more powerfull opponents unless his enemies take a drop in IQ. now, he can certainly come up with some good and plausible strategies for defeatign more pwoerfull peopel with prep, but without prep, claiming the shit he invents on the fly should be taken seriously in the forums is just nonsensical. he is not a herald level charatcer and cannot defeat one without a whole lot of one-sided prep.

Originally posted by Deadline
Not entirely Void is capable of taking WW, Hal and Superman at the same time.

Hawkeye could take out Aquaman or Hawkman, Daken could take out Batman....oh shit MM is there.

Well, that's my point. One herald level wipes *everyone* except for Void, then there's an actual contest between the other heralds and Void.


Originally posted by Deadline

Supes will be fighting The Void at the beginning of the fight.

Not necessarily, the other Herald level Leaguers could fight Void instead.

But it doesn't really matter which one isn't on Void duty- if Superman is on Void, then Hal takes the rest. Or Diana. Or Martian Manhunter.


You've got three Heralds fighting Void and one wiping the rest of the DA then joining in on Void. All of them will end up fighting Void.

Originally posted by 753
yeah, but not really.

you see, batman's pis victories rely on his more powerfull opponents being abnormaly stupid or on absurd scenarios that are implausible even by comic book standards. furthermore, it does not really matter who batman defeated, what matters is what he actually did to defeat them and so we arrive at the conclusion that most of that crap wouldnt work on the forums against much more powerfull opponents unless his enemies take a drop in IQ. now, he can certainly come up with some good and plausible strategies for defeatign more pwoerfull peopel with prep, but without prep, claiming the shit he invents on the fly should be taken seriously in the forums is just nonsensical. he is not a herald level charatcer and cannot defeat one without a whole lot of one-sided prep. So tell me .. . . when Batman kung fu's Grundy down, takes down Aquaman easily in hand to hand, or kung fus and wrestles Lobo to the floor and starts choking him, it's because their IQ dropped, or because he had prep?

There's a ton of these instances. I just named a few. So is it just a random one shot BS thing? How many times should he have to do it?

Originally posted by Q99
Well, that's my point. One herald level wipes *everyone* except for Void, then there's an actual contest between the other heralds and Void.

But it doesn't really matter which one isn't on Void duty- if Superman is on Void, then Hal takes the rest. Or Diana. Or Martian Manhunter.


You've got three Heralds fighting Void and one wiping the rest of the DA then joining in on Void. All of them will end up fighting Void.

Originally posted by Juntai
So tell me .. . . when Batman kung fu's Grundy down, takes down Aquaman easily in hand to hand, or kung fus and wrestles Lobo to the floor and starts choking him, it's because their IQ dropped, or because he had prep?

There's a ton of these instances. I just named a few. So is it just a random one shot BS thing? How many times should he have to do it? that is plain pis. in case you didnt get the point, it is bullshit that he does any of tha. let's take a trip down memory lane; cassandra cain, deathstroke, cain, etc. can oput BM down on his ass. lobo could shatter all of batmans bones with a sneeze. so yeah. it's pis and unnacceptable here given the rules.

Originally posted by Q99
Not necessarily, the other Herald level Leaguers could fight Void instead.

C'mon man thats not going to happen.

Originally posted by Q99


But it doesn't really matter which one isn't on Void duty- if Superman is on Void, then Hal takes the rest. Or Diana. Or Martian Manhunter.


You've got three Heralds fighting Void and one wiping the rest of the DA then joining in on Void. All of them will end up fighting Void.

Superman will def be fighting the Void. The Void is going to give three heralds muder I could see almost all the heralds fighting Void at the beginning of the fight.

Originally posted by Juntai
So tell me .. . . when Batman kung fu's Grundy down, takes down Aquaman easily in hand to hand, or kung fus and wrestles Lobo to the floor and starts choking him, it's because their IQ dropped, or because he had prep?

There's a ton of these instances. I just named a few. So is it just a random one shot BS thing? How many times should he have to do it?

I don't know enough about those characters to comment but people say similar stuff about Cap and that ain't PIS. I do think Batman taking shots from Superman and The General is PIS though.

Originally posted by 753
that is plain pis. in case you didnt get the point, it is bullshit that he does any of tha. let's take a trip down memory lane; cassandra cain, deathstroke, cain, etc. can oput BM down on his ass. lobo could shatter all of batmans bones with a sneeze. so yeah. it's pis and unnacceptable here given the rules. Actually, Cassandra couldn't even hit Batman in their two encounters. And she's better than the others mentioned.

It was Batman's first meeting with Deathstroke, back when Deathstroke was the 'new thing', and had the top selling comic in either company. Akin to when Supergirl showed up and was smashing everyone she ran into, or any new character meant to impress for that matter. Red Hulk?

Originally posted by Juntai
Actually, Cassandra couldn't even hit Batman in their two encounters. And she's better than the others mentioned.

She hit him in the first one. Heck, he didn't even notice the damage she did.

The second one, yea, but that was because he was on pure evasion, retreating a lot.

Originally posted by Juntai
Actually, Cassandra couldn't even hit Batman in their two encounters. And she's better than the others mentioned.

It was Batman's first meeting with Deathstroke, back when Deathstroke was the 'new thing', and had the top selling comic in either company. Akin to when Supergirl showed up and was smashing everyone she ran into, or any new character meant to impress for that matter. Red Hulk? Rulk was actually powered down, BM hasnt done much better against DS afterwards and cass did so tag him.

Originally posted by Q99
She hit him in the first one. Heck, he didn't even notice the damage she did.

The second one, yea, but that was because he was on pure evasion, retreating a lot. That's a forum myth. He had those wounds coming into the fight. He was already exhausted and bloody, and blocked everything she threw, and proved he could land an ending blow on her. Another funny fact? Besides one block, he did the rest entirely with one arm.
You can see his wounds clearly before that even happens.

I have No Man's Land where that happened on my shelf the other room. I can go look for the 1000ths time if you'd like.

Do you? I'll point out the page for you.

Originally posted by Juntai
That's a forum myth. He had those wounds coming into the fight. He was already exhausted and bloody, and blocked everything she threw, and proved he could land an ending blow on her. Another funny fact? Besides one block, he did the rest entirely with one arm.
You can see his wounds clearly before that even happens.

I have No Man's Land where that happened on my shelf the other room. I can go look for the 1000ths time if you'd like.

Do you? I'll point out the page for you.

I'd love to see that- it sounds like a completely different fight than the one I'm talking about and I didn't recall them fighting in NML at all.


I'm talking about in Batgirl #1. Sparing match, both are completely fresh, only the end is really shown, Batman says Cass is out of shape... then coughs up blood. He smiles, realizing she's been fighting better than he even noticed.

JLA stomp Aquaman and Martian Manhunter mind screw the Void and its game over

Originally posted by Q99
I'd love to see that- it sounds like a completely different fight than the one I'm talking about and I didn't recall them fighting in NML at all.


Oooh, I just checked through NML and realized what was being talked about!


The suicide drill, right?

That was a conversation, not a fight. The two of 'em were following a pre-set kata that Cain had taught them both, they knew the results before it started.


They didn't fight until the Batgirl series, and they fought there in #1 and #50.

Proof? From what I see, he called it the suicide drill, because he knew neither was good enough to stop him when they were going all out. "You can't stop me, but try." Why would you say something like that for a kata?

If it was a pre-set Kata, She was the one mimicking Cains stance, and then move in the first two flashbacks. If this is pre-set, Bruce was meant to lose it.

She went through a completely different flashback when he threw that ending move towards her throat. One that wasn't part of the drill.


To me it looks like, she was testing him there, to see if he was good enough.

He stopped her. And repeated it. "I can stop him. I can stop them all."

Originally posted by Juntai
Proof? From what I see, he called it the suicide drill, because he knew neither was good enough to stop him when they were going all out. "You can't stop me, but try." Why would you say something like that for a kata?


If it was a pre-set Kata, She was the one mimicking Cains stance, and then move in the first two flashbacks. If this is pre-set, Bruce was meant to lose it.

She went through a completely different flashback when he threw that ending move towards her throat. One that wasn't part of the drill.

Because the kata is a puzzle, so to speak. There's only one answer, the throat move, and the target has to find it. Both end up with the exact same result. And I don't think Bruce did at the time, hence the comment (largely a matter of willingness- the question Cass was asking was how far he'd go, and Cain knew he wouldn't kill), but could by the time of NML (he knows the answer to the drill- a deadly move- but intends to stop them without killing).

They passed with the exact same throat move- All three of them use the exact same response, so it certainly isn't 'not part of the drill,' it is the answer to the drill.




It is a test, but a test that both had done in the past, and that his response answered her questions about what he was going to do.
That's why it's a conversation. Set 'questions,' to see if the target knows the responses. The point of it was to talk.



Their first fight that's not on a script, the one that was being referred to where Bruce gets hurt without noticing, is later (she hits him during the suicide drill kata too, but it is just a kata/test so I wouldn't count it).

Originally posted by Q99


Because the kata is a puzzle, so to speak. There's only one answer, the throat move, and the target has to find it. Both end up with the exact same result. And I don't think Bruce did at the time, hence the comment (largely a matter of willingness- the question Cass was asking was how far he'd go, and Cain knew he wouldn't kill), but could by the time of NML (he knows the answer to the drill- a deadly move- but intends to stop them without killing).

They passed with the exact same throat move- All three of them use the exact same response, so it certainly isn't 'not part of the drill,' it is the answer to the drill.




It is a test, but a test that both had done in the past, and that his response answered her questions about what he was going to do.
That's why it's a conversation. Set 'questions,' to see if the target knows the responses. The point of it was to talk.



Their first fight that's not on a script, the one that was being referred to where Bruce gets hurt without noticing, is later (she hits him during the suicide drill kata too, but it is just a kata/test so I wouldn't count it). No. It shows Batman using it on her. Her using it on some fat guy. And Cain using it on a practice dummy--In the flashbacks. It doesn't show them answering the drill with it. All completely seperate from the flashback of the drill. Do you have any proof outside of this?

Originally posted by Juntai
Sure.

I call it, "inventing my own idea of a character, rather than the one portrayed", but to each his own. So you say PIS doesn't exist?

Originally posted by Juntai
No. It shows Batman using it on her. Her using it on some fat guy. And Cain using it on a practice dummy--In the flashbacks. It doesn't show them answering the drill with it. All completely seperate from the flashback of the drill.

I don't think I can quite accept the argument that the move he used, which all three of them use in relation to the drill, is not part of the drill and the set of moves that's supposed to be used in respect to it.



There is the matter that she's starting with a kata stance and series of moves he knows and she knows he knows, exactly.

It's really clearly not a real fight. He, at most, slightly mixed up the ending, but there's no question she wasn't fighting for real, she was following a known series of attacks.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think I can quite accept the argument that the move he used, which all three of them use in relation to the drill, is not part of the drill and the set of moves that's supposed to be used in respect to it. They didn't use it in relation to the drill.

When he shows that move, not a single one of the flashbacks/panels is back to drill.

She is using it on an un-named man, at a completely different stage of her development.
Cain is shown using it on a dummy.
And Batman is using it on her.

Originally posted by Q99

It's really clearly not a real fight. She goes into a stance he recalls from training with David Cain.
Where David says "You can't stop me, but try."
Seems to just be full contact, no holding back.

Batman then stops her.
And she looks like a deer in headlights.
And says he can stop Cain too.

If you don't have any other evidence, of this being some pre set winner kata, puzzle stuff, I'm going to have to suggest that you're making shit up.

Originally posted by Juntai
They didn't use it in relation to the drill.

When he shows that move, not a single one of the flashbacks/panels is back to drill.

She is using it on an un-named man, at a completely different stage of her development.
Cain is shown using it on a dummy.
And Batman is using it on her.

So a series of flashbacks, all of which have been of the Suicide Drill up to that point, end on the move, and you just assume it's a change of subject and not a continuation?

Quite a big leap there. I think you're just ignoring context, burden of proof is on you to prove it's unrelated because there's certainly no indication in the comic.


---

Anyway, she also punches him in the head during the kata, so you were technically incorrect on that part in any case, and you also apparently don't know about their first non-scripted fight, not long later in Batgirl #1.

It's flashing back to training sessions with Cain, because he's just realized her move set is the same as his. He's relating it all in his mind. Same way he figured out she couldn't talk.

The only burden of proof to be had is of you proving this to be some pre-set kata as you describe. And I'd suggest it's a hefty one, since the issue has no mention of it.

But yes, she does hit him once. But he was hardly trying either. He just stood there and blocked, never really even shifted his feet, dodged or move, then stopped her in her tracks and showed he could kill her. But I'll concede that. That's better than a lot of people do. In, I think, in the Bruce Wayne Murderer/Fugitive arcs, Cain couldn't hit Bruce either. Neither could Nightwing. He absolutely leveled both of them when he meant to.

Originally posted by Juntai
It's flashing back to training with Cain, because he's just realized her move set is the same as his. He's relating it all in his mind.

Of course, she is using moves he knows in order to tell him about herself and Cain.

Including, notably, the formal setup stance which includes no attacks and is purely to tell the other person it's starting.


Going through these moves tells Batman the situation he's in, because the moves set up a specific situation.




They show repeatedly throughout the fight she's doing the exact same moves Cain showed Bruce. Flashback Cane does a move, she does a move, etc. etc..

I'm going to suggest you're being deliberately obtuse. Real fights do not involve following exact patterns the other person has seen before.


There's no words because that's the entire point- it's visually obvious and Cassandra talks through fighting. Bruce listens through fighting. Sorta central to the character interaction there.



Yea, and she was following an exact pattern of attacks he had seen before to get his response, and that's how he choses to answer. It's a conversation.

It's not a fight when you tell your opponent, "Ok, in 4 moves from now? I'm totally going to be here, so give me your answer there in the form of an attack."

By summation, Bruce was using the move to her know he was trained too, and that he was better than Cain, and would beat him. Because she was using a similar style to David Cain.

It's flashing back, because Bruce is remembering training seeing this style of fighting in front of him.

If Bruce knew all of the moves set up, and the moves ahead of it, why the **** would he punched in the face!? lol.

Just like when you suggest they're all using it as the answer to the kata, and that is nothing remotely close to what it shows. They're all using it at completely different times, none of them in spar with the others.

It just shows they were both taught by David Cain.

When you're suggesting is reaching pretty far, unless you have other evidence.

yeah, so batgirl has hurt batman in combat and proven she is a match for him. nice chat. batman is not a herald level anything unless he gets lots and lots of onesided prep, even then he is nowhere close to being the best preppper in comics.

Originally posted by 753
that is plain pis. in case you didnt get the point, it is bullshit that he does any of tha. let's take a trip down memory lane; cassandra cain, deathstroke, cain, etc. can oput BM down on his ass. lobo could shatter all of batmans bones with a sneeze. so yeah. it's pis and unnacceptable here given the rules.
I think you mean to say it's SMvsFL, if that's still in the rules. But it calls into question, once it's done so many many times that it's nearly written into his character. Batman can even dismantle the whole Titans team if he set his mind to it. He's done it before.

Originally posted by 753
yeah, so batgirl has hurt batman in combat and proven she is a match for him. nice chat. batman is not a herald level anything unless he gets lots and lots of onesided prep, even then he is nowhere close to being the best preppper in comics. No, but he can choke one out. lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
I think you mean to say it's SMvsFL, if that's still in the rules. But it calls into question, once it's done so many many times that it's nearly written into his character. Batman can even dismantle the whole Titans team if he set his mind to it. He's done it before.

When was this Juntai?

Originally posted by Utrigita
When was this Juntai?

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvstitans1.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvstitans2.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvstitans1.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvstitans2.jpg

Thanks

Justice League win hands down.

that shit aint canon though is it?

Originally posted by 753
that shit aint canon though is it?

Yes it is.

Originally posted by Juntai
Just like when you suggest they're all using it as the answer to the kata, and that is nothing remotely close to what it shows. They're all using it at completely different times, none of them in spar with the others.

It just shows they were both taught by David Cain.

When you're suggesting is reaching pretty far, unless you have other evidence.

Yea, sorry, you're being deliberately obtuse. That Cassandra communicates through fighting was rather a central plot point, and it was shown matching moves exactly from the past.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, sorry, you're being deliberately obtuse. That Cassandra communicates through fighting was rather a central plot point, and it was shown matching moves exactly from the past. No, during this, they were both realizing the other had been taught by David Cain. He said he was good enough to stop him, she was testing him. He was having flashbacks because her and David Cain have the same exact style of fighting, and he's realizing that had he been with Cain, she is what he might have become.

However, if it was all predetermined, and he knew the outcome of all of the moves, he wouldn't have been jacked in the grill.

Also, the final blow, which you claimed was 'the answer' to this 'puzzle kata' thing that seems like you made up on the spot, is not represented either, as it shows them performing it in different stages, not as part of the spar. Because the second Batman throws it, she, not Bruce anymore, is the one that has a flashback, and understands that Batman has been trained by Cain as well. Also, in the flashback, that move is the same move she used to tear out the guys throat in a flashback as a child in the previous issue- the day that she left David Cain and ran away.


I'm sorry, unless you have something else from the series that highlights what you're suggesting, it's just not what's represented here.

JLA are stacked dude seriously, Superman wipes everyone but Void in one fly-by , so thats about 0.03 seconds after the 'Go', and then it becomes Void vs the rest. Stupid battle is stupid.

Originally posted by batdude123
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvstitans1.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvstitans2.jpg

Yeah totally makes sense that batman closelined a speedster without looking.

http://ggurls.com/images/gossip/you-mad.gif

Originally posted by batdude123
http://ggurls.com/images/gossip/you-mad.gif

Now i am i ****ing hate oprah!

Originally posted by batdude123
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvstitans1.jpg
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batvstitans2.jpg

Is that all of the titans?

Originally posted by Juntai
I think you mean to say it's SMvsFL, if that's still in the rules. But it calls into question, once it's done so many many times that it's nearly written into his character. Batman can even dismantle the whole Titans team if he set his mind to it. He's done it before.

Not sure about some of those cases but you can mention that in DC vs Marvel Bullseye stated that Batman hit harder than Daredevil, you can clearly see that the writers were going overboard. Theres also an issue I have with Batman and Superman were the writers tried to imply that Batman and Superman were equals. They're obvoulsy not but you can see with Batman he seems to get special treatment.

Its pretty much seems to me that the whole Batman and Superman series is complete pile of CIS/PIS. I kinda believe the more something happens (except street levelrs taking class 100 shots due to reasons) the more it should be accepted but I think Batman is an exception.

Regarding the Batman debate, I think it's telling of the differences between how power works in Marvel vs in DC.

Marvel compared to DC has generally more well defined tiers and less 'clutter', which is to say that unlike DC where you have your streets, a few metas, and then a shit ton of Heralds in Marvel you have some streets, lots of Metas, and some heralds.

But comics being comics we have lots of situations in DC where Streets come up against and do well against Heralds.

Anyway, enough rambling. The point I hope I'm making here is that I'm not so sure we can just dismiss Batman's showings against people who SHOULD be way out of his tier simply because he's a 'normal' human when it's pretty clear that DC thinks fairly highly of the capabilities of 'normal' humans.

Originally posted by Deadline
Is that all of the titans?



Not sure about some of those cases but you can mention that in DC vs Marvel Bullseye stated that Batman hit harder than Daredevil, you can clearly see that the writers were going overboard. Theres also an issue I have with Batman and Superman were the writers tried to imply that Batman and Superman were equals. They're obvoulsy not but you can see with Batman he seems to get special treatment.

Its pretty much seems to me that the whole Batman and Superman series is complete pile of CIS/PIS. I kinda believe the more something happens (except street levelrs taking class 100 shots due to reasons) the more it should be accepted but I think Batman is an exception.
Wait, why is it 'going overboard' to suggest Batman hits harder than Matt?

Originally posted by Deadline
Not sure about some of those cases but you can mention that in DC vs Marvel Bullseye stated that Batman hit harder than Daredevil, you can clearly see that the writers were going overboard.

Explain.

I doubt you want to have a pissing contest between the two.

Originally posted by batdude123
Yes it is. the wonder child, is it donna?

Yup.

This is all great reading and all, but did everybody forget that this fight is taking place in the Negative Zone? The Voids powers are severely magnified in the Negative Zone. Yeah, this isnt the Void your used to seeing in Seige and so forth.

The JLA die.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Regarding the Batman debate, I think it's telling of the differences between how power works in Marvel vs in DC.

Marvel compared to DC has generally more well defined tiers and less 'clutter', which is to say that unlike DC where you have your streets, a few metas, and then a shit ton of Heralds in Marvel you have some streets, lots of Metas, and some heralds.

But comics being comics we have lots of situations in DC where Streets come up against and do well against Heralds.


Doesn't matter how many times it happens street lvlers taking class 100 shots is PIS. To be quite honest though not sure anybody has really given feats that I consider to be PIS, but it does pretty much seem to me they like to cockstroke Batman and go overboard.

Originally posted by Omega Vision

Anyway, enough rambling. The point I hope I'm making here is that I'm not so sure we can just dismiss Batman's showings against people who SHOULD be way out of his tier simply because he's a 'normal' human when it's pretty clear that DC thinks fairly highly of the capabilities of 'normal' humans.


Wait, why is it 'going overboard' to suggest Batman hits harder than Matt?

Don't think he suggested Bullseye specifically stated that, what do you think it fuels the idea that writers like to cockstroke Batman.