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From Every boss, main character, supporting character to the lowest grunt enemy which series is more powerful overall?

I don't know who I want to win.

Lady takes it. That is all you need to know.

dante wins cuz he cuts raindrps n shit

but kain can turn into mist and sneek up and stab ta da back

Cutting raindrops...

Ahyhow, in a one-on-one Dante takes Kain handedly. Mass fight, cba to think right now.

One would think the Elder God would give LoKverse the advantage, but he honestly does not seem that powerful.

Then again, he IS voiced by Tony Jay.

Elder God's voice is the only thing keeping him this side of respectable.

The Elder God would solo. Kain would do a good job of a solo too however with Dante being the only real threat. I dont agree with the idea Kain would be defeated handedly or however you spell it so that could be argued as well if you cannot find a way to beat the EG. Not sure if Dante can even touch or see him, assuming he can, the EG would sooner multiply and expand across the DMCverse before Dante can cause any real damage.

Urm.. what can EG even do? All I've seen from it in a combat sense is tentacle waving. Id even say that Nero could take Kain, much stronger than him and unlike Bayonetta can actually 'run circles around him'.

As a verse the only threats from LoK are EG, Kain and Raziel. Besides them the rest aint a big deal and can all be taken out by the fodder in the DMC verse.

By sheer size he could bury Saviour. Whats Nero done to suggest hes stronger than Kain and can run "circles", I dont recall? I suggest Dante kills Nero for Kain when Kain mind controls him, then rips out his own heart before Kains "soul displacement" of dante kills him.

I could say the same about Dante, nero and vergil. I doubt it, the fodder in LoK>>DMC in many cases for example puppets, shadows etc, all pretty slow and weak compared to lightning Deamons, greater deamons etc. You have the Sarafan which have various shields and hand held cannons, they would cut down most melee threats since a lot of DMC foes have no guns. The only major threat would be the DMC 2 high tech tanks which would win but thats not major when the EG can bury the lot of them.

Also I would like to see how the DMCverse takes out the circle of nine, or even a few of them who can create the Dark eden reality warp bubble. Just a few of them can turn a entire region into a warp of time, space, flesh and reality.

Some of the fodder in DMC includes a demon that defies physics and logic with how cold it is.

Or so I'm told.

I dont recall one like that. In DMC 4 I think theres some fast moving, frost creatures but if they were that cold Dante would be frozen, as would most of the environment around them instantly.

Which is why it defies physics and logic.

If their that cold then their damn stupid throwing shards of ice. Although I will wait and see Bloodrains evidence on that matter, it may not be "frosts" that were being refered to.

Its magic. We don't need to explain it. :P

I dunno what the hell it was. I just remember hearing about it and raging at how ****ing stupid that is.

Frosts are described as colder than absolute zero.

Thier swords are by the looks of it. hm, strange but fair enough I guess. Not sure that changes anything.

Oh, I only posted about it because you said LoK fodder > DMC fodder.

Having below zero swords does not automatically make them able to defeat all LoK fodder. By the looks of it, Nosgoth has heavily trained armies, soldiers and magic users AND Demons in their fodder while most of the DMC forces are simply demons and undead, few of them likely have any structure. The hylden lord posses Sanctus, who controls saviour who stomps al the little DMC fodder into dust before pulling its own head off and collapsing on those annoying "infected" dmc 2 abrams tanks

Personally I'd just disregard the Frost's description as developers not knowing what the number means and giving hyperbole. It's really cold, that's all that needs to be said.

Why's the <AbZero a major thing? Other fictions have it and other physical impossibilities, like FTL. Its impossible for mass to accelerate to the speed of light yet characters go faster than that all the time and its agreed to by all. Don't mind at or close to 0k but not seeing the big shock of it.

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Nero's a Savior lifting, hypersonic guy with DT, great ranged moves, even greater close combat and has a sword with a very high cutting power. Control Mind doesn't work on non-humans and Spirit Wreak is too slow for any notable DMC'er.
Yeah just Dante, Vergil and Nero... and Mundas. And the Savior.. Arkham, Abigail, Argosax, Nefasturris and Sparda of course. <-- The heavy hitters.

''Nosgoth has heavily trained armies, soldiers and magic users AND Demons in their fodder''
O-o Fortuna has the Order of the Sword's knights who regularly take on demons, (not the easiest things for man to kill) verse even has humans like Lady who take them on. Verse also has demons that are in lightning formed, absolute zero, soul suckers, demons that absorb sword strikes and punches, intangible ones, powerful living suites of armour, the magic users, living tanks/helicopters and not to mention the sheer number of them. Hells pretty vast. <-- Are only fodder. Savior can in fact wipe out most of the LoK verse's fodder in a moment.

And 30 other powerful bosses as.. <-- The middle.

Probably has something to do with that FTL speeds don't come off as quite a slap in the face to logic.

He used his extremely slow devil arm attack to blow off Saviours face etc, you belive Kains going to sit around for a minute or so while Nero charges and launches this hand that is too slow to grasp him? all those things are negated by Tk or teleport, kain will probably devour his blood and gain the spiritual/natual powers so its easier for him to take out the rest of DMC. Charm, and again their minds have not shown to be more advanced against mind powers than a humans also "slow" maybe but when you take into the fact their homing and Kain can cast more than one....not that its necessery.

Mundus? not much of a threat, Argosax was poor, I fear the fodder more tbh and the rest are not much, but I agree on the first three.

Fair enough ,the Order are fairly good but most of them seem corrupt or easy to lead, not sure there are many of them either. The living tanks/helicopters are the only major thing there but they are only so effective. And the Elder God can wipe out the Saviour and the DMC fodder, if not the entire DMC caste but whats interesting to note is as I said in my previous post the Saviour thanks the Hylden lord will be working for the LoK, good ole possession.

powerful is arguable. Youve got anything from insane demon insects to blobs like nightmare or w/e its called that do not seem impressive at all.

More than one entity in Lok could just use an inspire hate ability (or something like it) and send half of the DMc cast agianst eachother. Its unsporting but so are a lot of their powers and so are living tanks.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Why's the <AbZero a major thing? Other fictions have it and other physical impossibilities, like FTL. Its impossible for mass to accelerate to the speed of light yet characters go faster than that all the time and its agreed to by all. Don't mind at or close to 0k but not seeing the big shock of it.


Yeah, but FTL travel is usually a requirement for the setting it's in, and more often than not has some explanation behind it. Without FTL the plot doesn't function, but that's more the meta reason. If you want an actual reason, the setting will more often than not have "warp/hyper" drive that gives a reason how it does what it does, or how it avoids the effects it should have.

Below Absolute Zero goes into negative movement, which is not only physically impossible but does not exist as an actual, understandable concept. Better to just have it as "really, really cold" than trying to figure out how it would work if it was possible.



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I wouldn't have thought Kain would just sit around and let Raziel hit him, but what do you know?

FTL slaps Einstein in the face >__>

Though there are many characters that dont go far and are still FTL. And mass accelerating to FTL isnt far off <0k in terms of physically wrong. Fairio but I'd leave it at 0k or close to.

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Ya'know that he doesn't have to make it go larger to have the same effects, right? He can still easily smack the Saviors fists away without changing size. TK negated by free movement mid-air for grabs and slashes, DT burst and/or not being caught in the first place for being much faster. And t'porting negated by fighting things much faster then what he can do on reappearance. Charm dont work either, said in the other thread. Well when you take into consideration that these 3 can bullet time with the utmost ease, slow orb should be fine.
Low reality warper who is on par with SpardaDante? Ya'huh.. Argosax=<Mundas too.

Fortuna is a large place with many demon attacks, should be a decent amount. So LoK's have faced lightning speed beasts or ones at AbZero? Can't really see EG reaching the Savior or being able to take out all the fodder in one go like Savior can. He'll have to know where Sanctus is first, even so by the time he gets to and possesses him most fodder will be gone and the DMC guys can just go and kill Sanctus.. actually Vergil will, he's the only one who hasnt killed him yet. >->
And massive blizzard forming toads, hellfire Berial, the cloning Doppleganger or lightning cloud Griffon, they're something Lok faces regularly? Dude Nightmares one of the toughest bosses. Extremely hard to put down, liquid form, laser beam as streams or shots and most of all if it grabs you youre sent to a dimension where you face spirits in the form of your darkest thoughts and trauma.

Hmm, making the DMC side hate everyone... they'd eventually tear into the LoK side either way. No that he could cast Hate over millions of entities.

He deserves it, incestuous prick. OnO

Originally posted by BloodRain

Ya'know that he doesn't have to make it go larger to have the same effects, right? He can still easily smack the Saviors fists away without changing size. TK negated by free movement mid-air for grabs and slashes, DT burst and/or not being caught in the first place for being much faster. And t'porting negated by fighting things much faster then what he can do on reappearance. Charm dont work either, said in the other thread. Well when you take into consideration that these 3 can bullet time with the utmost ease, slow orb should be fine.
Low reality warper who is on par with SpardaDante? Ya'huh.. Argosax=<Mundas too.

Fortuna is a large place with many demon attacks, should be a decent amount. So LoK's have faced lightning speed beasts or ones at AbZero? Can't really see EG reaching the Savior or being able to take out all the fodder in one go like Savior can. He'll have to know where Sanctus is first, even so by the time he gets to and possesses him most fodder will be gone and the DMC guys can just go and kill Sanctus.. actually Vergil will, he's the only one who hasnt killed him yet. >->
And massive blizzard forming toads, hellfire Berial, the cloning Doppleganger or lightning cloud Griffon, they're something Lok faces regularly? Dude Nightmares one of the toughest bosses. Extremely hard to put down, liquid form, laser beam as streams or shots and most of all if it grabs you youre sent to a dimension where you face spirits in the form of your darkest thoughts and trauma.

Hmm, making the DMC side hate everyone... they'd eventually tear into the LoK side either way. No that he could cast Hate over millions of entities.

I would have to see it to belive he can give the devil arm the same strength as he did then. That all took a lot of charge and too much time. Being fast is irrelevent, you cant "outrun" something thats not even there but is bands of force. What things are "much faster"? 100 slow orbs not so fine, especially not while being knocked about by Tk, mind controlled etc. You made an argument based on inhuman willpowers but did not back up their feats for mental resistance.

Show me what Argosax did that was so impressive, all i saw when I played was a fairly slow moving boss that used predictable and seemingly physical attacks....

Lightning speed beasts, e.g. Blitzes? Abzero is irrelevent, but lightning speed iirc is only while moving as a lightning form. They stop to attack Dante iirc. Why cant you see that since hes 100 times bigger than saviour and could just collapse the upper mantle that their based on? No he does not have to know anything and if he does, he can know it instantly just like how he possed Janos audren insantly from another dimension as soon as the shield produced by the pillars was down. So instantly, Lok can take their pick of any of the DMC characters up for possession, likely Saviour. most of those bosses mentioned are light on feats, Berial probably isnt much bigger than a couple of greater deamons that just pop out of thin air, those toads are basic creatures without much to comment on them. Maybe for Dante in DMC but in truth its a large blob whos range is limited to the small room you face him in.

Its an AoE, hate turns to hate and considering if a few of the DMC heavy hitters or bosses started attacking their own forces the casualties and chaos will sky rocket allowing the Lok elite, Kain, Raziel etc to pick of the mad and enraged DMC "heavies" or absorb other beings to gain in strength, Kain blood showering a ton of DMC creatures to gain their "lightning speed" or "frost powers" would boost him to no ends.

In the final boss fight, not to mention his arms are as strong as Dante who can catch the Saviors punch. And ya, a slow orb wont phase any hypersonic person.. not even a supersonic guy would be caught by something that slow. Lol really think he can stand there and tank their hits? Lets see, Raz' strength is flipping 700 tons at just over a meter a second(?)... the force that Nero beat at 0:20 is 2k times Raz, 0:25 being 7k times Raz and what Dante caught being double that. And did I forget to mention that unlike Raziel using both arms to flip 700 tons these two only use one arm? Oh, or how about that Yamato has an immense cutting power? If he even stops for an instant Nero get in with his superior speed, grab Yamato and dispose of Kain with his superior strength and cutting force.. maybe even add DT just to make sure the deeds done. If a zombie slave Vergil can start to resist mind control from the like of Mundus, a full powered twin can fight back against someone like Kain.

Though comparing the numbers the demons would dwarf an army in size, and seeing that no one in that army can match or counter lightning strikes or movement they'll be ganged up on and... well, blitzed so to speak. Especially as besides Kain, Raziel everyone else has human reactions, reactions that would fall to Blitz who'd move again before they can act. Ah I see, still not much that verse has to counter 'em. So has he shown being able to create an extra large tentacle?

Then whats he using to locate anyone/specific people he hasn't seen/etc? Well technically from the anime, but thats directly after DMC1 so still the same form. First theres Abigail being casually 4k times Raz, and him flexing his strength by almost destroying a skyscraper in a stomp, finally Dante=Abigail at full power. Inorganic materials, mostly metal in both solid and liquid forms. Cant use its other attacks as liquid besides dragging people to a pocket dimension, so still dangerous to them.

10 seconds? They attack anything near them, Kain 'porting in would be attacked by most demons and any high tier ones. The strongest ones will catch him out and the ones that dont wont get much damage on each other in 10 seconds. Not that it looks like he'd be able to do this each time to cast it.(As he lost most powers after some near death event in BO, now he uses this) Can this spell even work on non-sentient demons? Wouldnt think demons that think like animals, who dont feel hate, will have and hate to build on.

Turns out that D.Entity used the Collapse of the Pillars to aid in possessing Janos and he, like Mortanius, was able to fight back against it. And according to D.Entity a stronger body is harder to control, don't even need to suggest that Dante is stronger than Janos. That and the little resistance the twins has shows that he wont be using Dante to wipe the verse, not without him fighting back or if he cant fully resist tell Vergil to kill him like Raz was meant to for Janos. ''This one is strong, good. My next more requires a more.. durable host. Mortals are such fragile vessels.''~D.Entity.

It is theoretically possible for something to travel faster than light if it ALWAYS travels faster than light, which is what the hypothesized tachyons do IIRC.

There are also other theories for how FTL speed could be attained.

I don't think there has ever been a quantification for what the **** "Below absolute zero" is, absolute being the key term.

That said, Scenario, you saying "It should be disregarded because of the developer's lack of knowledge" is a cop-out, and one that could be easily used against many of Link's feats.

One can reason that the magic inherent in the swords of the Frosts is able to somehow "contain" the "below" absolute zero temperature in a closed space, thus making it only relevant if it cuts you, freezing the person.

That said, I give not a single shit about this thread, though Legacy of Kain's verse and characters are infinitely better than the steaming shit-pile that is DMC.

Ah, didn't think there were any scientist backed theories on moving mass to FTL. Meh.

Originally posted by BloodRain
In the final boss fight, not to mention his arms are as strong as Dante who can catch the Saviors punch. And ya, a slow orb wont phase any hypersonic person.. not even a supersonic guy would be caught by something that slow. Lol really think he can stand there and tank their hits? Lets see, Raz' strength is flipping 700 tons at just over a meter a second(?)... the force that Nero beat at 0:20 is 2k times Raz, 0:25 being 7k times Raz and what Dante caught being double that. And did I forget to mention that unlike Raziel using both arms to flip 700 tons these two only use one arm? Oh, or how about that Yamato has an immense cutting power? If he even stops for an instant Nero get in with his superior speed, grab Yamato and dispose of Kain with his superior strength and cutting force.. maybe even add DT just to make sure the deeds done. If a zombie slave Vergil can start to resist mind control from the like of Mundus, a full powered twin can fight back against someone like Kain.

Though comparing the numbers the demons would dwarf an army in size, and seeing that no one in that army can match or counter lightning strikes or movement they'll be ganged up on and... well, blitzed so to speak. Especially as besides Kain, Raziel everyone else has human reactions, reactions that would fall to Blitz who'd move again before they can act. Ah I see, still not much that verse has to counter 'em. So has he shown being able to create an extra large tentacle?

Then whats he using to locate anyone/specific people he hasn't seen/etc? Well technically from the anime, but thats directly after DMC1 so still the same form. First theres Abigail being casually 4k times Raz, and him flexing his strength by almost destroying a skyscraper in a stomp, finally Dante=Abigail at full power. Inorganic materials, mostly metal in both solid and liquid forms. Cant use its other attacks as liquid besides dragging people to a pocket dimension, so still dangerous to them.

10 seconds? They attack anything near them, Kain 'porting in would be attacked by most demons and any high tier ones. The strongest ones will catch him out and the ones that dont wont get much damage on each other in 10 seconds. Not that it looks like he'd be able to do this each time to cast it.(As he lost most powers after some near death event in BO, now he uses this) Can this spell even work on non-sentient demons? Wouldnt think demons that think like animals, who dont feel hate, will have and hate to build on.

Turns out that D.Entity used the Collapse of the Pillars to aid in possessing Janos and he, like Mortanius, was able to fight back against it. And according to D.Entity a stronger body is harder to control, don't even need to suggest that Dante is stronger than Janos. That and the little resistance the twins has shows that he wont be using Dante to wipe the verse, not without him fighting back or if he cant fully resist tell Vergil to kill him like Raz was meant to for Janos. ''This one is strong, good. My next more requires a more.. durable host. Mortals are such fragile vessels.''~D.Entity.

I doubt that also I would argue against the whole "catching" saviours punch thing again in a moment although all it looks like there is that Nero is harming the Saviour and his flinching backwards not that hes launching the arms back also theres a difference between moving an inanimate object that does not move of its own accord and a "living" or "sentient" entity which can actually move/react so Saviour moving could be part of what makes what Nero does possible. But 100 of them, not so easy. Nero cannot use a sharp weapon or sword with his devil arm, hes never done it, therefore considering its size its punch would have to be greater than the durability of Kains entire body, its not going to happen . Dante did not "catch" it, it more or less scraped him and he used the flat side of his sword to spread the PSi, his sword being indestructable itself (or at least super durable) took most of the force hence why Dante was simply pushed back/into the ground. So you would have to divide the PSI of saviours punch (which I would argue may have stopped at a scrape considering saviour froze) across the surface area of his sword which was a good few square feet give or take.

What numbers? Dante may have fought and killed a handfull of those demons, you cannot assume theres millions of them can you? They dont have to counter lightning strikes since the demons dont "strike" at the speed of lightning, most if not all their attacks require them to stop. He also has "large" tentacles, that reach from several rooms but you miss the point where he can make a lot of them so eventually his mass would reach unless your claiming Saviour is going to just retreat into the sky?

I dont know how the Hylden Lord does it, he instantly possessed Janos from another dimension as soon as the shield stopping him from coming into the world was down. Take into account Janos was already dead and its only because of Raziels time travel and tearing kains heart out that he lives so its a mystery but we know he can do it and it takes no time at all, and works over miles. So the Hylden lord can take anyone he wants.

Is the anime canon? regardless according to the rules of the forum only the actual games are seen as canon:



So the thread starter would have to confirm we are allowed things from outside the games "universe" so to speak.

He wont be there wil he since by the time they go mad to kill eachother the split second or nigh instant Kain takes to teleport again would mean hes no longer present and he would be inspiring another bunch. Catch him out? based on what? nobodies going to be catching someone who is barely there an instant out when their minds are inspired into maddening hate to kill eachother.....if you can prove they think like animals and have no hate/emotion as a human then maybe....that does not include a large number of DMc characters, and it does not include Dante/vergil.

When does he say a more durable/strong body is harder to control? I think your misunderstanding the fact that he needs a durable body for it to last through the possession since human ones degrade and die from age as well as hylden corruption wheras Janos like Dante would be immortal (or long lived in Dantes case, I only assume hes fully immortal) and on top of that the weaker the body becomes the harder it is to control hence why killing it removes the possession. The pillars had to be destroyed for him to enter Nosgoth considering hes already here on this field that problem is already solved. Also would vergil be able to kil his brother just like that? it took a second or two and Janos was then full under Hylden lords control could vergil make that decision? not that I agree Dante could resist, hes not an incredibly wise being like Janos who knows the Hylden well, Dante still acts like a cocky youngster I dont thnk hes ever had to defeat a mental influence before let alone push a possessive being from his body. Also theres nothing stopping the LoK forces from working together, Kains mental powers/inspire harte on Dante timed well with a possession could leave a mad Dante (for 10-20 seconds) under the possesson of the Hylden lord...

The Hylden lord as shown by how he left Janos' body to power the device and possessed the Sarafan lord can possess others so even Dante was about to be killed he could possess someone else.

To a Mach 5 person slow 5m/s orbs are not even a blip on the radar. Compared to human reactions its literally as fast as a snail. I think It'd take alot more then 100 flying snails to tag a person. The Savior doesn't really feel pain being a walking statue, didn't flinch when Dante drive his sword into it. Weight+Velocity=Force, for Nero to knock an advancing attack back he'd have to be > Force, which his is. Broken down into three sides: 1) Do you really think its impossible for him to simply hold a sword in a different hand? 2) Raziel's claws tips are 1,000x smaller than Nero's fist... Raziel's single arm strength is 14,000x smaller than Nero's single arm strength. His punches are blunt force, not penetrative. 3) Everthings better in 3's. Yeah, he did. All that energy isnt going to hop into the sword, it has to be released into the medium holding it, Dante. Not that it was even the whole blade. And you may choose to argue that it stopped before but that fails on two points; 1) Cant actually prove that it stopped before contact. 2) Even if it did it would still be the same weight moving at the same speed resulting in the same force.

To assume that there aren't millions of demons occupying the entire underworld is odd. A single gate brings forth tens of thousands of demons. If they cant track a lightning beast they wont be able to defend from it when it appears to slash or shoot lightning bolts. But has he shown to be able to create them like this? And whats the best feat strength with his tentacles have done? Ja, Savior's always in the sky.
Too many unknowns. Also unknown how he targets specific characters etc.
Yep, its the direct sequel to DMC1. Thats skyscraper level strength right there.

Actually a split second is enough time for any high tier to catch him, how long does he appear for? 'Cause hes 'porting around characters that can react and attack at 0.001-0.0002seconds, even most lower ones with 0.01 reactions, he'll have to appear for much less time. The majority of demons are based on animals, behave like animals and have the same methods and attack plans of animals. Only some kinds or stronger ones get more sentient. Oui but those large numbers, including Dante/Vergil, have the reactions and speed necessary to take him on appearance. Even if his plan worked how much damage would be caused in the 5 seconds, (as shown in the vid) and he couldn't stop to activate it again in the way he does. The only ones he'd have success and best death results would be from targeting fodder that the DMC side have plenty of.

After the little control struggle D.Entity commented that it was because he was strong, comparing to humans durability and feebleness, all physical traits. Will Vergil be able to kill Dante who's asking for it and about to become a large threat? Thats more reason then he needs to kill anyone/thing given the chance. Remember how he left Dante for death on the roof just to take his pendant, or how he planned to cover the entire ground with Dante's blood just to open a door? Does wisdom effect possession? As said Zombie Vergil was slightly able to fight back from Mundus controlling his mind, body, soul etc 100%. Even Dante was able to take mental trauma/torture in his stride.

Speaking of teamwork, could just have Mundus, Nightmare, Dante, Vergil and Sparda BFR them to hell/another dimension 'til they're ready to dispose of them. All the while Savior and maybe Abigail if he's here will be wiping out army's worth of people in a matter of seconds as both have multi-city block beams. Thus the low tier LoK's are gone and the mids soon to follow before a dent is made in the huge mass of DMC fodder, leaving the LoK high tiers (with a few pesky ones in other realms) against the high and mid DMC tiers with some lows. How many high and mid tier characters does LoK even have?

Originally posted by BloodRain
To a Mach 5 person slow 5m/s orbs are not even a blip on the radar. Compared to human reactions its literally as fast as a snail. I think It'd take alot more then 100 flying snails to tag a person. The Savior doesn't really feel pain being a walking statue, didn't flinch when Dante drive his sword into it. Weight+Velocity=Force, for Nero to knock an advancing attack back he'd have to be > Force, which his is. Broken down into three sides: 1) Do you really think its impossible for him to simply hold a sword in a different hand? 2) Raziel's claws tips are 1,000x smaller than Nero's fist... Raziel's single arm strength is 14,000x smaller than Nero's single arm strength. His punches are blunt force, not penetrative. 3) Everthings better in 3's. Yeah, he did. All that energy isnt going to hop into the sword, it has to be released into the medium holding it, Dante. Not that it was even the whole blade. And you may choose to argue that it stopped before but that fails on two points; 1) Cant actually prove that it stopped before contact. 2) Even if it did it would still be the same weight moving at the same speed resulting in the same force.

To assume that there aren't millions of demons occupying the entire underworld is odd. A single gate brings forth tens of thousands of demons. If they cant track a lightning beast they wont be able to defend from it when it appears to slash or shoot lightning bolts. But has he shown to be able to create them like this? And whats the best feat strength with his tentacles have done? Ja, Savior's always in the sky.
Too many unknowns. Also unknown how he targets specific characters etc.
Yep, its the direct sequel to DMC1. Thats skyscraper level strength right there.

Actually a split second is enough time for any high tier to catch him, how long does he appear for? 'Cause hes 'porting around characters that can react and attack at 0.001-0.0002seconds, even most lower ones with 0.01 reactions, he'll have to appear for much less time. The majority of demons are based on animals, behave like animals and have the same methods and attack plans of animals. Only some kinds or stronger ones get more sentient. Oui but those large numbers, including Dante/Vergil, have the reactions and speed necessary to take him on appearance. Even if his plan worked how much damage would be caused in the 5 seconds, (as shown in the vid) and he couldn't stop to activate it again in the way he does. The only ones he'd have success and best death results would be from targeting fodder that the DMC side have plenty of.

After the little control struggle D.Entity commented that it was because he was strong, comparing to humans durability and feebleness, all physical traits. Will Vergil be able to kill Dante who's asking for it and about to become a large threat? Thats more reason then he needs to kill anyone/thing given the chance. Remember how he left Dante for death on the roof just to take his pendant, or how he planned to cover the entire ground with Dante's blood just to open a door? Does wisdom effect possession? As said Zombie Vergil was slightly able to fight back from Mundus controlling his mind, body, soul etc 100%. Even Dante was able to take mental trauma/torture in his stride.

Speaking of teamwork, could just have Mundus, Nightmare, Dante, Vergil and Sparda BFR them to hell/another dimension 'til they're ready to dispose of them. All the while Savior and maybe Abigail if he's here will be wiping out army's worth of people in a matter of seconds as both have multi-city block beams. Thus the low tier LoK's are gone and the mids soon to follow before a dent is made in the huge mass of DMC fodder, leaving the LoK high tiers (with a few pesky ones in other realms) against the high and mid DMC tiers with some lows. How many high and mid tier characters does LoK even have?

Maybe a snail but if you put 100 snails on a living room floor, then keep adding them it gets more difficult to get across without stepping on one. 1) its not just a different hand, its like a floating energy arm that may or may not even be able to hold a sword and use it with any skill, it seems to shape into a fist/grasp almost every time anyway. 2) 13k tonnes of force failed to penetrate 1 mm'2, Neros hand would pretty much cover Kains entire body, millions of tonnes difference. Saviours entire weight pales by comparison. 3). Energy is spread through the sword, as I said thats the force of Saviours punch spread out across quite a lot of metal, which is why Dante holds it up there so he does not get smeared across the ground. Dantes hands may have felt some of the force but you would have to divide the energy over the swords whole face first. If it stoppe at nothing but a scrape its nothing comapred to the punch going all the way through and you can see the Saviour frozen, including his other arm hanging in the air not long after Dantes sigh of relief.

We dont actually know how many lightning beasts, forst beasts etc, you cant just assume theres millions of each swarming the battlefield. Hes been shown to create them, smashing rocks, digging through the planets mantle, more than enough to smash what I am claiming he can smash.

0.05 seconds was Kains attack time, and I have never seen anyone in DMC actually react, and attack against entities they dont even know would have been there a fraction of time before, not that it matters because as I said they could never do any real damage to Kain in 0.05 seconds and theyll be mad anyway.

As I said, hylden corruption/possession kills mortals quickly. Well vergil would have very little time, but as I said Dante does not know anything about the hylden or what is about to happen before hes mind has been entered, his mind is not even necessery on the smae level as Janos audrens even if his physcial form is beyond it.

the low tier of LoK are gone? the EG alone can do that to DMC and Saviour is under the Hylden lords command or Dante is destroying it (that is if the EG has not wrecked it and pulled it apart). Also show me them BFR anyone quickly? all I have seen is the slow "jackpot" that may not even BFR anything, thats up for discussion. You do realise the ancient vampires, Janos' people ripped an entire race (the Hylden) from Nosgoth and trapped them in the demon dimension? an entire race....theres no video of it but the murals on the walls depicting it make it look like an enormous vortex. Both races, the hylden and the ancient vampires have had powers that afflict entire races with curses in this case vampirism/dimension removal....their likely even more of a threat than Kain or the EG despite the information being more hazy on how they do it.

Only if the person sits there until hundreds of them slowly surround him. Chances of this happening in a fight? And can he even form more than one? ..Yeah, it still has a physical form. Proven wrong anyhow. You're still confusing penetrating force to blunt force. ...That wasnt 3), this was, where its clear that he holds Yamato with his Devil Bringer. So thats strength 14,000 times, speed 200 times and a sword with cutting power 20 times what Raz is capable of for Dante and Sparda. Keeping in mind that Nero gets stronger with DT, Vergil/Sparda get stronger and faster and Dante even more so with DT, amp items, strength weapons and Majin form.
All of them are well above whats needed to severely put the hurt on Kain. And no, the energy enters from the only point of impact (the red area) then some spreads to out while the majority of the force follows the motion of the fist aka down into Dante. And again no, as highlighted in the image the red area is the only part of the sword making contact with the fist. Three times no, if it stopped it would have to visible slow down or it would still have the exact same force. Besides Kains durability, the rest can be one-shotted right?

There are millions of other types of demons with Frosts being less, and Blitz's even less. Maybe a tiny percentage compared to other demon types, but a tiny percent of a million is still in the thousands. Even if there were only 100 they could still one-shot most of the opposition. How much force do you think it takes to dig? And smashing rocks sounds none to impressive.

0.05 Is just above peak human, the majority of demons are faster than any human. These are the fodder. To assume any of the stronger opponents over supersonic wouldn't be able to react in time is faulty. And as I said he can target fodder so they don't attack him in time, but they wont cause any significant damage to each other in the short while and even if they do, they're not in short supply. Or can try target the higher ups but they will catch him on appearance.

He pretty much commented on physical attributes when he momentarily lost control. Enough time that Raz had? Plenty. Some resistance and a strong mind has been shown by the twins, at the very lest he can fight back. More so with his stronger form.

You'll have to show me something that shows EG being able to strike at millions of enemies at a time, like a tentacle reference size not theory. Whereas the beams can wipe out thousands of LoK's at a time, and something tells me they dont have such a vast army that a thousand down wouldn't even put a dent in the numbers. Savior doesn't actually have a mind or soul.. Slow? Are the LoKers bullet timers? If no theres no escape. And its no discussion, if you get hit you get sealed into hell. And BFRing is Nightmares signature move, with Mundus being able to do this via low scale reality warping. Is there any way to show how they pulled it off? If not it falls into the 'Ganon can destroy islands' category. Itd be easier for me to claim that Sparda can take away their names away to seal off their powers and seal them away like he did with 'all' of the 7 sins. ('All' as each of the 7 are fodder-like in numbers]

So what is the tier? AFAIK they have Kain, Raziel, EG and D.Entity in the top tier. With anything else below that not worth the mention. Can be easily argued that the DMC low tier (soul suckers, AbZero, Lightning, other strong demons) are on the level of LoK mid tiers.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Only if the person sits there until hundreds of them slowly surround him. Chances of this happening in a fight? And can he even form more than one? ..Yeah, it still has a physical form. Proven wrong anyhow. You're still confusing penetrating force to blunt force. ...That wasnt 3), this was, where its clear that he holds Yamato with his Devil Bringer. So thats strength 14,000 times, speed 200 times and a sword with cutting power 20 times what Raz is capable of for Dante and Sparda. Keeping in mind that Nero gets stronger with DT, Vergil/Sparda get stronger and faster and Dante even more so with DT, amp items, strength weapons and Majin form.
All of them are well above whats needed to severely put the hurt on Kain. And no, the energy enters from the only point of impact (the red area) then some spreads to out while the majority of the force follows the motion of the fist aka down into Dante. And again no, as highlighted in the image the red area is the only part of the sword making contact with the fist. Three times no, if it stopped it would have to visible slow down or it would still have the exact same force. Besides Kains durability, the rest can be one-shotted right?

There are millions of other types of demons with Frosts being less, and Blitz's even less. Maybe a tiny percentage compared to other demon types, but a tiny percent of a million is still in the thousands. Even if there were only 100 they could still one-shot most of the opposition. How much force do you think it takes to dig? And smashing rocks sounds none to impressive.

0.05 Is just above peak human, the majority of demons are faster than any human. These are the fodder. To assume any of the stronger opponents over supersonic wouldn't be able to react in time is faulty. And as I said he can target fodder so they don't attack him in time, but they wont cause any significant damage to each other in the short while and even if they do, they're not in short supply. Or can try target the higher ups but they will catch him on appearance.

He pretty much commented on physical attributes when he momentarily lost control. Enough time that Raz had? Plenty. Some resistance and a strong mind has been shown by the twins, at the very lest he can fight back. More so with his stronger form.

You'll have to show me something that shows EG being able to strike at millions of enemies at a time, like a tentacle reference size not theory. Whereas the beams can wipe out thousands of LoK's at a time, and something tells me they dont have such a vast army that a thousand down wouldn't even put a dent in the numbers. Savior doesn't actually have a mind or soul.. Slow? Are the LoKers bullet timers? If no theres no escape. And its no discussion, if you get hit you get sealed into hell. And BFRing is Nightmares signature move, with Mundus being able to do this via low scale reality warping. Is there any way to show how they pulled it off? If not it falls into the 'Ganon can destroy islands' category. Itd be easier for me to claim that Sparda can take away their names away to seal off their powers and seal them away like he did with 'all' of the 7 sins. ('All' as each of the 7 are fodder-like in numbers]

So what is the tier? AFAIK they have Kain, Raziel, EG and D.Entity in the top tier. With anything else below that not worth the mention. Can be easily argued that the DMC low tier (soul suckers, AbZero, Lightning, other strong demons) are on the level of LoK mid tiers.

It having a physical form does not mean it can grab something like a little sword and use it like he does in his other arm, otherwise he would have likely done so but he always puts it in his other hand. Its the same thing, just over a different area, PSI is still taken into account but the spread on a penetrating force is only in like 1-10mm square if that. Hes holding it in his demon hand, its not the same as holding it in his large "spiritual" looking one where the strength comes from. Show me the weight and speed for this "14,000" times please, Saviours arm is on a moving joint, therefore its not the same as pushing a still object.

Show me the math please, I want to see the PSI and your calculation showing the overall PSI that they can actually do. Can you show me in a video the "red" area of the sword thats being hit please? also the PSI is spread over the area the first connects with. Easily, Dante got a sword simply thrown into him iirc by Neros normal arm, infact I would not be surprised if Dantes durability is much higher than a human beings at least as far as Kain is concerned, also Kain does not have to worry about durability when his sword devours his opponents spiritually.

And even if there were 100, theres a human populations worth of Sarafan across Nosgoth, not to mension all the human factions from the entire Nosgoth histories and they can all one shot these demons. They would be swamped. I dont know the density of the entire lower planet mantle, the E.G is constantly under it so the weight of the upper earth over a continent? enormous, also a being has the same strength to lift its own body, therefore the E.G's weight would at least be=to its strength otherwise it could not move let alone burrow and have enough strength to move through the earth. None to impressive perhaps but comapred to featless fodder its more than enough, plus 1000 said tentacles? DMC is chanceless.

Ive not seen this from those demons and your talking about DMC characters as if they all have precog, Kain could teleport anywhere, behind them etc, the ball is in his court and instantly their in his field, killing eachother. The Hylden lords puppet Dante, mad ripping Vergils head off while he shoots lady in the head....DMC get massacered by their own people.

When has this been shown? also you say "twins" but I have heard more from Vergil and its not the same, this is instant possession not a feint influence that they can react to...it took less than a second for the Hylden lord to take Janos almost completly.

How much do you need to know when a continent sized entity that burrows through the earth and can demolish piecies of the environment with just a few tentacles is in question? Sanctus, e.g. the controller of Saviour does. Its not just a bullet, it takes some charge up iirc and they both have to get together to do it.

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/muralpillars.php

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/muralhistory.php

you can see the ancient vampires in the mural above, imprisoning the entire Hylden race with a spell. I doubt only one ancient was required to do it however.

You can see the Hylden doing something similiar:

http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/def/muralcurse.php

Cursing the winged race to become vampires.

Top tier? The circle of nine, a few of them could create Dark eden, the reality warping region, Kain, Raziel, EG, Hylden lord/D entity thats probably all although Vorador could probably get in there since he can teleport and cast a few spells. Their hardly the low tier since I would put those living puppets, shadow hounds or w/e their called and other enemies of their level on the low tier. I would put them on the same level as Lok demons.

But their lower tier are completly irrelevant, the E.G can take the lot of them off and their not even a threat to the Lok top tier wheras the Lok low tier such as Sarafan with flame weapons and cannons and such could in "army" numbers damage DMC high tiers since their not so durable as Kain or the EG (or Raziel).

Thats the issue with PSI, irl the larger hand moving at the same speed as a normal punch would generate much higher force. Cept we don't add velocity to attacks. Anyway the size difference < strength difference. His strength is the same no matter the size, its how his strength equals Dante's who could do the same thing. For the attack the came at Nero only the forearm was coming at him, 1,000 tons, at 100m/s (from the distance it covered in the fraction of a second) thats 4.536GJ to Raz's 0.0006GJ. 7,143x, then theres that Raziel used two arms for his lift, so one arm would be 1/14,285th Nero's strength. <- without going DT to amp his strength.

The Math.. cbaatm. I provided the numbers, you can calc from that if you like. Nero's speed is 70kain, Dante/Vergil/Sparda/Argosax's is 200kain <- just to show how many hits they can get in. Vergil's (w/Beowulf) strength is 23raz, unless he's.... Nelo Angelo/Nero/Dante/Argosax/Sparda's is 14,000raz. Argosax using a normal blade at 1razclaw cutting force, Nero/Vergil/Sparda/Dante can use Yamato with a cutting force of 20wraiths.
Nero/Vergil/Sparda/Dante DT increase speed and strength. Gilgamesh/Beowulf, Devil Hearts and Majin form increase them even further.

Id like to know how Sarafan and Humans can 'one shot' all of the demons. Sarafan, who are all knight-like besides the four named characters and maybe Glyphwrights, are magicless knights and Humans, who are mostly... human apart from some magic guys, being able to one shot that can move at/fire lightning or ones at extreme cold temperatures that can move in 'mist' form. Hordes of lower leveled demons will be a large threat to them. Not that borrowing through rock is that impressive, and what makes you think its below... wait I think you mean crust not mantle. Also what makes you think that E.G's that big? First of all he 'borrows' at the end of the game, something that large would not need to do so if it was as large as a continent as it would already be covering the distance from the surface to the bottom. So no digging would be required if he was that large. Second is this picture of the E.G, size reference being its tentacles as we know how big they are. Nor are there a thousand of them.

No I'm talking about DMC character as if they had high speed and reactions. Peak human can react to something appearing and strike in 0.2s. A Mach 1 person can do the same in 0.006s. Yeah.. wheres 'behind' in an army? Don't forget that he still has to be close enough for it to work, but like I said the demons wont do any real damage in the few seconds it lasts even if he pulled it off. Inspire Hate=moot.

Mentioned already, in the scene where he gets Janos. Vergil=Dante in 3, Nelo Angelo<current Dante. You're right its not the same, its more so. After Mundus thrashed him he controlled his whole being, and he has some of Mundus' energy inside him. Full powered individual resisting control<zombie/shell/slave resisting.

E.G thing above. Its not just Sanctus that can control the Savior, anyone wielding Sparda. So that wont work. And lets say he does control Sanctus, one of the faster characters could blitz him and take them both out before he can hop bodies. Aye, a charged shot. If anything that would be faster than a normal one. Dante1 was able to do it (before you jump on it Trish only gave him her energy as Dante was drained/running low and didn't have enough at the time) and Dante3 was clearly about to do it solo but had his gun knocked out of his hand, so Vergil stepped in. They can do the move by themselves.

We still don't know how its used though.

Worst thing I see about this dome is that it twists those who aren't already twisted into monsters. And the mid tier is full of named important people,(I assume) if so the mid/low tiers are less of a threat. Dante tier, Vergil tier and Nero tier characters are high tier. The bosses are mid, while any other demon is low tier with 'Elites' like Frost and Blitz only being the top of the low tier.

Like how the Savior, Abigail can for the other side. Excluding the E.G discussion all but the top tiers you mentioned have little to compete with DMC low's. 'Flame weapons and cannons'... really? Strong ice demons can take lava temps, what're flames gonna do to anyone? High tier and high-mid can take Hellfire heat, aka >>>lava. Don't even need to comment on the cannons. Y'know humans still have their modern tech like vehicles , guns, explosives, helicopters, tanks, RPG's etc. >>> what cannons can do.