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Superman
Hulk
Thor
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Silver Surfer
Hercules (Marvel)-immortal
Wonder Woman
Orion

All class 100, But rank them in order from 1 to 8.

Originally posted by lawest9
Superman
Hulk
Thor
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Silver Surfer
Hercules (Marvel)-immortal
Wonder Woman
Orion

All class 100, But rank them in order from 1 to 8.

No.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
No. WHY?????

Originally posted by lawest9
WHY?????

First you didn't say please and second some of them are so close, I would say they are equals. You can't rank from 1-8 if you have only 8 chars with some being equally strong. sneer

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
First you didn't say please and second some of them are so close, I would say they are equals. You can't rank from 1-8 if you have only 8 chars with some being equally strong. sneer Tell you what then, As the threads creator, I leave it open for anyone to included whoever else they want to add to this list.

1. Orion, Thor WM
2. Superman, CM, WWH, Gladiator
3. Imm. Herc, former WW, Thor
4. SS

Hulk
Thor
Superman
Hercules (Marvel)-immortal
Orion
Wonder Woman
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Silver Surfer



... this is splitting hairs.

Only ones weaker than herc in terms of physical strength are ww and surfer

Superman
Marvel
Thor
Orion
Hulk
Herc
WW
SS

It's always interesting to see how vastly different people's lists are when a subject like this comes up.

Hulk
Superman/Thor
Marvel/Orion
Hercules
Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman

There are so many factors involved with this its not even funny.

Savage hulk was matching Thor in straight fist fights so Current Hulk I have to place above Thor in terms of raw strength. Superman is so wonky on his placements that unless you want to cite a specific issue on what level your judging his strength to be it's nearly moot. Wonderwoman really shouldnt be on this list. She's a high end brick don't get me wrong but she's a brick who relies on technical fighting which lets her contend with super high end bricks like Superman and Marvel more than raw strength.

So I guess if we're going to put everyone at top notch baseline levels in their current incarnations with no amps I'd have to say

Marvel/Superman (Tied unless Sun dip then supes lolz at everyone on this list.) (Orion w/ AF)
Hulk/(Thor w/ WM and belt)
Thor
Orion
Hercules
Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman

i think it's hilarious that in damn near every Wonder Woman thread there is, one of the first things people say is, she's comparable to Superman, yet everyone so far is ranking her at the bottom.

Originally posted by marwash22
i think it's hilarious that in damn near every Wonder Woman thread there is, one of the first things people say is, she's comparable to Superman, yet everyone so far is ranking her at the bottom.
Forrest griffon is comparable to anderson silva. But all all know what happened that fight

http://i25.tinypic.com/20f3lt3.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/29uq99c.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/jpuh7c.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2vrveop.jpg

Originally posted by marwash22
i think it's hilarious that in damn near every Wonder Woman thread there is, one of the first things people say is, she's comparable to Superman, yet everyone so far is ranking her at the bottom.

Silver Surfer is at the bottom and they are all so evenly matched, we are talking about minimal differences in their strength.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Silver Surfer is at the bottom and they are all so evenly matched, we are talking about minimal differences in their strength. not even. When was the last time we saw WW even try to move a stellar mass, or even surfer w/out using Power Cosmic.

no, Forrest Griffin is NOT comparable to Anderson. Comparable means there are many similarities and few differences.

Anderson Silva >>>>> Forrest Griffin. not even close. That's like saying Soulja Boy is comparable to BIG. The only similarity is that they're black.

Now, either people are full of shit when they say Supes and Wondy are comparable, or Wondy is being a bit underrated in this thread thus far.

Originally posted by Uriel005
not even. When was the last time we saw WW even try to move a stellar mass, or even surfer w/out using Power Cosmic.

Why would she need to? Honestly. As for the SS, without the PC he wouldn't be the Surfer, right?

Originally posted by marwash22
no, Forrest Griffin is NOT comparable to Anderson. Comparable means there are many similarities and few differences.

Anderson Silva >>>>> Forrest Griffin. not even close. That's like saying Soulja Boy is comparable to BIG. The only similarity is that they're black.

Now, either people are full of shit when they say Supes and Wondy are comparable, or Wondy is being a bit underrated in this thread thus far.

The prob with Supes is, that he is stronger then a Kryptonian. WW matches PowerGirl and Supergirl quite easy and she is up to CM but Superman is quite difficult to deal with. His strength varies with the challange.

Originally posted by marwash22
no, Forrest Griffin is NOT comparable to Anderson. Comparable means there are many similarities and few differences.

Anderson Silva >>>>> Forrest Griffin. not even close. That's like saying Soulja Boy is comparable to BIG. The only similarity is that they're black.

Now, either people are full of shit when they say Supes and Wondy are comparable, or Wondy is being a bit underrated in this thread thus far. Basically. I agree she can contend with supes but not in terms of raw strength. What gives her an edge with Kal is her skills. not raw stats.

Hulk
Superman
Orion/Cap/Thor/Herc
SS
WW

Originally posted by lawest9
Superman
Hulk
Thor
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Silver Surfer
Hercules (Marvel)-immortal
Wonder Woman
Orion

All class 100, But rank them in order from 1 to 8.

1. Orion
2. Captain Marvel (Billy)
3. Superman
4. Thor
5. Hulk
6. Hercules
7. Silver Surfer
8. Wonder Woman (Dirty Ho)

What puts Marvel ahead of Supes? At best they should be equal IMO.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
1. Orion
2. Captain Marvel (Billy)
3. Superman
4. Thor
5. Hulk
6. Hercules
7. Silver Surfer
8. Wonder Woman (Dirty Ho)
Originally posted by Uriel005
There are so many factors involved with this its not even funny.

Savage hulk was matching Thor in straight fist fights so Current Hulk I have to place above Thor in terms of raw strength. Superman is so wonky on his placements that unless you want to cite a specific issue on what level your judging his strength to be it's nearly moot. Wonderwoman really shouldnt be on this list. She's a high end brick don't get me wrong but she's a brick who relies on technical fighting which lets her contend with super high end bricks like Superman and Marvel more than raw strength.

So I guess if we're going to put everyone at top notch baseline levels in their current incarnations with no amps I'd have to say

Marvel/Superman (Tied unless Sun dip then supes lolz at everyone on this list.) (Orion w/ AF)
Hulk/(Thor w/ WM and belt)
Thor
Orion
Hercules
Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman

Originally posted by lawest9
Superman
Hulk
Thor
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Silver Surfer
Hercules (Marvel)-immortal
Wonder Woman
Orion

All class 100, But rank them in order from 1 to 8. 1.Hulk
2.Marvel, Superman
3.Surfer, Thor, Herc
4.Orion




5.WW

Originally posted by quanchi112
1.Hulk
2.Marvel, Superman
3.Surfer, Thor, Herc
4.Orion




5.WW

Orion is way stronger than that. He has stalemated Superman countless times. You really think surfer is = to Thor and herc and greater than Orion..WOW

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
Orion is way stronger than that. He has stalemated Superman countless times. You really think surfer is = to Thor and herc and greater than Orion..WOW Orion stalelmated Superman but not in a contest of strength. Orion probably is equal to them so I amend my list to a four way tie for 3rd then WW is last.

Also LOL at you having Hulk so far down on the list when his thing is strength.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Orion stalelmated Superman but not in a contest of strength. Orion probably is equal to them so I amend my list to a four way tie for 3rd then WW is last.

Also LOL at you having Hulk so far down on the list when his thing is strength.

Fair enough. I have him so low because I am doing it when he is calm. I think he has the ability to get near as or equal to them, but just standing there I have Hulk down low.

Superman
Hulk/Orion
Thor/Hercules/Captain Marvel
Wonder Woman
Silver Surfer

Generally speaking:

Superman/Captain Marvel/Hulk at his angriest
Thor/Orion/Hercules/Typical Hulk
Wonder Woman
Silver Surfer

Originally posted by lawest9
Superman
Hulk
Thor
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Silver Surfer
Hercules (Marvel)-immortal
Wonder Woman
Orion

All class 100, But rank them in order from 1 to 8.

Superman/Hulk
Thor/Hercules/Orion
Captain Marvel
Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman

Originally posted by marwash22

Now, either people are full of shit when they say Supes and Wondy are comparable, or Wondy is being a bit underrated in this thread thus far.

Because she's almost as strong, but has better reflexes, HtH speed, and HtH skill, so she tends to do well in melee with him.

I wouldn't put her at the very bottom, but yea, she is a little less strong than him.




What is wrong with you?

Hulk/CM/Thor
Superman/Orion/Surfer
WW/Herc

Originally posted by lawest9
Superman
Hulk
Thor
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Silver Surfer
Hercules (Marvel)-immortal
Wonder Woman
Orion

All class 100, But rank them in order from 1 to 8.

Even by the smallest of margins:

Superman/Hulk
Thor/Billy/Hercules/Orion
Surfer/Wonder Womoan

I honestly think some people placed the characters randomly. Pr in particular. What a Superman fanboy. superdur

------------

Diana should be at the bottom followed by the Surfer and Hulk should be at the top (If nothing else other than that he can and has gotten stronger than anyone on the list). Those imo are the only non interchangeable spots. The rest can be placed in whatever order.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I honestly think some people placed the characters randomly. Pr in particular. What a Superman fanboy. superdur

------------

Diana should be at the bottom followed by the Surfer and Hulk should be at the top (If nothing else other than that he can and has gotten stronger than anyone on the list). Those imo are the only non interchangeable spots. The rest can be placed in whatever order.

Quiet blondie.

Superman
Marvel
Orion
Thor
Hulk
WW
Herc
SS

Fail.

Actually you are right, it should be:

Superman





Marvel
Orion
Thor
Hulk
WW
Herc
SS

Originally posted by Mindset
Fail.

People need to respect the Prince of Power. sneer

1) Hulk (very very angry )
2) Superman (sundip)
3) CM (billy)/Superman(regular)
4) Thor/Hercules/Orion/WW/ Hulk (kinda angry)
5) Silver Surfer
6) Hulk (calm)


I don't know why people are placing billy so low, he is, and will 'always !' be shown as strong as superman in their encounters

haters

Originally posted by -Pr-
Even by the smallest of margins:

Superman/Hulk
Thor/Billy/Hercules/Orion
Surfer/Wonder Womoan
Originally posted by -Pr-
Wonder Womoan
Originally posted by -Pr-
Wonder Womoan
Originally posted by -Pr-
moan Originally posted by batdude123
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/n00b_nation/sports/to-wink.gif

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hulk
Superman/Thor
Marvel/Orion
Hercules
Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman

Rage I have a few questions:

1. Is Hulk #1 based off his potential or highest feats shown?
2. Why is Hercules weaker than Thor? Aren't they at least equals or Hercules edging him out by a hair?
3. Is that depowered WW you are using?

Originally posted by Q99
Because she's almost as strong, but has better reflexes, HtH speed, and HtH skill, so she tends to do well in melee with him.

I wouldn't put her at the very bottom, but yea, she is a little less strong than him.




What is wrong with you?

I love that you are so sensitive that when I say something about wonder woman you get bothred by it and have to acknowledge it. If you don't like what I say why don't you just ignore it. People say stuff about my favorite character all the time even try and belittle accomplishments.....ehhhh so what.

People are people they can say whatever they want even if it isn't true and i don't like it. Get a thicker skin or are you a masochist? You being uncomfortable with me dissing Wonder woman makes me happy.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l318/rave74/fe57d9cc5b9534732bdd547da4843c9f1238390896_full.jpg

Hulk can't be ranked in any strength rating contest because his strength is a function of how angry he gets.

The OP must decide on whether to use average Hulk or highest Hulk shown (potential Hulk).
Here I use characters at their highest showings (not sundipped Supes though)

Superman
WW (Classic)
CM/Orion
Hulk (highest shown)
Hercules
Thor
SS

Fail.

Originally posted by Mindset
Fail. It passes the highest quantifiable feat test. If you disagree then give an example of how it fails (give a feat).

Now for average showings the rankings would be different.

What highest level feats does Orion, CM, Hulk, WW have over Thor and Herc?

Originally posted by Mindset
What highest level feats does Orion, CM, Hulk, WW have over Thor and Herc? You got me there. I don't remember Orion or CM highest feats. But WW exerted the force of the planet Earth by helping Superman and GL move the Earth. In the calculation I assumed that she exerted 1/100th of the total force or something like that. But we all know WW is stronger than 1/100 of both Superman and GL.
Hulk has the adamantium smashing feat and the Onslaught feat.

Captain Marvel



Hulk
Superman
Borion
Surfer
Hunkeles
Wonder Woman
Thor

Originally posted by lawest9
Superman
Hulk
Thor
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Silver Surfer
Hercules (Marvel)-immortal
Wonder Woman
Orion

All class 100, But rank them in order from 1 to 8.
based on pure strength

1. WWH
2. Superman, Captain Marvel
3. Orion , Thor , Hercules
4. Wonder Woman

Originally posted by h1a8
You got me there. I don't remember Orion or CM highest feats. But WW exerted the force of the planet Earth by helping Superman and GL move the Earth. In the calculation I assumed that she exerted 1/100th of the total force or something like that. But we all know WW is stronger than 1/100 of both Superman and GL.
Hulk has the adamantium smashing feat and the Onslaught feat. How is that greater than then when thor and herc was generating enough force to knock the earth out of orbit in a arm wrestle?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Generally speaking:

Superman/Captain Marvel/Hulk at his angriest
Thor/Orion/Hercules/Typical Hulk
Wonder Woman
Silver Surfer

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
How is that greater than then when thor and herc was generating enough force to knock the earth out of orbit in a arm wrestle? Because


1. If you move the Earth 1 inch away then you succeeded in moving the Earth out of orbit. But getting the Earth to move an inch in hours is a very low acceleration which means a very low force. That means they BOTH TOGETHER were exerting a force less than the actual weight of the Earth itself. If you accelerate the Earth at g (9.8m/s^2) then that is equivalent to lifting the weight of Earth itself. Remember, everything in space can be accelerated to reach a certain speed, no matter how massive. But the more the force you apply then the faster you can accelerate the object. I can apply a force of 1 pound to the Earth and it will accelerate (very slowly though).

2. It was two of them so Thor was doing at most half of the feat. So Thor exerted a force far less than half the weight of Earth.

3. It wasn't canon (although it occurred in a canon comic). The feat came after the comic was over. It was for shits and giggles, nothing more. It was like a comic from the cereal box. Otherwise, how did the Earth get back in orbit?


If you disagree with reason 3. then reasons 1. and 2. would suffice.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hulk
Superman/Thor
Marvel/Orion
Hercules
Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman

Agreed.

Superman/Hulk
Thor/Orion/Marvel/WW (Classic)
Hercules
SS

Originally posted by carver9
Agreed. But why is Herc constantly being ranked beneath Thor when the two are supposed to be equals?

Probably because Thor has better showings in general and people take into consideration stuff they shouldn't such as Mjolnir and Thor's overall power output. That and people are generally uninformed about Hercules, imo.

Originally posted by lawest9
But why is Herc constantly being ranked beneath Thor when the two are supposed to be equals? Because they're dumb.

Originally posted by lawest9
But why is Herc constantly being ranked beneath Thor when the two are supposed to be equals?

That's the only one that I disagree with. I have always argued that Herc is equal to Thor and Supes and going by his high ends like holding up a Universe, he might be above them.

Originally posted by Mindset
Because they're dumb.

Or that.

Originally posted by carver9
That's the only one that I disagree with. I have always argued that Herc is equal to Thor and Supes and going by his high ends like holding up a Universe, he might be above them. I have a question for you Carver that I left on another thread, Don't know if you saw it.

It was: As a big fan of Gladiator, What are your thoughts on the way his fight was written with the Hulk in a Hulk annual several years ago?

Don't you think it was a really humiliating defeat the way it was written in much the same sense as Orion lost to SS in a crossover?

Originally posted by lawest9
I have a question for you Carver that I left on another thread, Don't know if you saw it.

It was: As a big fan of Gladiator, What are your thoughts on the way his fight was written with the Hulk in a Hulk annual several years ago?

Don't you think it was a really humiliating defeat the way it was written in much the same sense as Orion lost to SS in a crossover?


That defeat of Gladiator was to appease the fans who were crying he lost to Superman.

LMAO with there being a Nuclear reactor right there for the Hulk. LOL that the right kind of radiation was in the reactor to hurt Gladiator. There is all kind of radiation and the right kind just happen to be in that reactor.

There is all kinds of radiation in space and glads has never been hurt.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
That defeat of Gladiator was to appease the fans who were crying he lost to Superman.

LMAO with there being a Nuclear reactor right there for the Hulk. LOL that the right kind of radiation was in the reactor to hurt Gladiator. There is all kind of radiation and the right kind just happen to be in that reactor.

There is all kinds of radiation in space and glads has never been hurt. Thanks HP, Now that you mentioned it.........I remember how upset some Hulk fans were at how his fight with Supes went down.

As a Superman fan big time, I would rather that that happened to Glads rather than to the real true thing.

Peace!

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
That defeat of Gladiator was to appease the fans who were crying he lost to Superman.

LMAO with there being a Nuclear reactor right there for the Hulk. LOL that the right kind of radiation was in the reactor to hurt Gladiator. There is all kind of radiation and the right kind just happen to be in that reactor.

There is all kinds of radiation in space and glads has never been hurt.

This is what I think about the Glads and Hulk fight.

It was already set that Hulk was going to win due to his lost to Supes (which was stated in a interview). I think the Hulk could beat Glads anyways but that fight isn't proof of it. Then if you look at the fight closely, Glads wasn't even taking it serious... the guy was dusting his cloths off during mid battle. He didn't throw a single punch, the only punch he threw was to get the Hulk off of him because he was messing up his cloths.

To much was going on in that fight for it to be used as anything valid and again, it was confirmed that Glads lost due to the writers in Marvel thought of process on Hulk was suppose to be the winner in a fight against Supes.

Originally posted by carver9
This is what I think about the Glads and Hulk fight.

It was already set that Hulk was going to win due to his lost to Supes (which was stated in a interview). I think the Hulk could beat Glads anyways but that fight isn't proof of it. Then if you look at the fight closely, Glads wasn't even taking it serious... the guy was dusting his cloths off during mid battle. He didn't throw a single punch, the only punch he threw was to get the Hulk off of him because he was messing up his cloths.

To much was going on in that fight for it to be used as anything valid and again, it was confirmed that Glads lost due to the writers in Marvel thought of process on Hulk was suppose to be the winner in a fight against Supes. In reality Hulk is not supposed to beat Gladiator ANY TIMES. Glads is far too fast, too strong, and too durable for Hulk. Hulk would be a statue to him. He can combo to ko the Hulk with planet shattering blows before Hulk can blink. He can uppercut or throw Hulk into space with the utmost ease.

Originally posted by h1a8
In reality Hulk is not supposed to beat Gladiator ANY TIMES. Glads is far too fast, too strong, and too durable for Hulk. Hulk would be a statue to him. He can combo to ko the Hulk with planet shattering blows before Hulk can blink. He can uppercut or throw Hulk into space with the utmost ease.

So who would win in a "reality" fight, Gladiator or Galactus?

Originally posted by carver9
So who would win in a "reality" fight, Gladiator or Galactus? Galactus of course. Glads should be an insect to him.

Galactus would simply blast him to dust the moment the battle started.

Originally posted by h1a8
Galactus of course. Glads should be an insect to him.

Galactus would simply blast him to dust the moment the battle started.

How would Galactus blast him? He's to fast right?

Carver vs h1 logic battle

This is something you can't get on any other website.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Carver vs h1 logic battle

This is something you can't get on any other website.

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Carver vs h1 logic battle

This is something you can't get on any other website.

Hush it.

Family Man Hulk is number 1 in strength and familial responsiblity.

Originally posted by Mindset
Family Man Hulk is number 1 in strength and familial responsiblity.

OMG

Originally posted by Sr J-Bieb
Carver vs h1 logic battle

This is something you can't get on any other website.

World's Funnest part 2?

Originally posted by carver9
OMG

Originally posted by carver9
How would Galactus blast him? He's to fast right?
Galactus in reality should have the same or better reflexes as Surfer. Also Glads doesn't start at light speed, he must accelerate to that speed. This takes time. With Surfer's reflexes Galactus would simply stop or slow down time and blast Glads. Or simply blast Glads since it would take Glads too long (relative to Galactus of course) to reach speeds in which Galactus can't react to.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
World's Funnest part 2? So they'll be coming back to do this next Tuesday?

Originally posted by h1a8
Galactus in reality should have the same or better reflexes as Surfer. Also Glads doesn't start at light speed, he must accelerate to that speed. This takes time. With Surfer's reflexes Galactus would simply stop or slow down time and blast Glads. Or simply blast Glads since it would take Glads too long (relative to Galactus of course) to reach speeds in which Galactus can't react to. facepalm

Originally posted by h1a8
Galactus in reality should have the same or better reflexes as Surfer. Also Glads doesn't start at light speed, he must accelerate to that speed. This takes time. With Surfer's reflexes Galactus would simply stop or slow down time and blast Glads. Or simply blast Glads since it would take Glads too long (relative to Galactus of course) to reach speeds in which Galactus can't react to.

Where are you getting that it takes time for Glads to fly at light? This same person that takes time flew at 100 times the speed of light instantly.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime

People are people they can say whatever they want even if it isn't true and i don't like it. Get a thicker skin or are you a masochist? You being uncomfortable with me dissing Wonder woman makes me happy.


You're forgetting that it works both ways kiddo. People can *generally* say whatever they want (there are limits on free speech) and in turn people can respond how they choose. He/she has just as much right to respond as you have to post in the first place.

And I hate to speak for others but I think his/her distaste for your comments has less to do with liking Wonder Woman and more to do with not being a fan of misogyny in any context.

But as for the matter at hand, the differences between most of these characters are small at best.

1. Hulk (if we are to believe that he really will just keep getting stronger)
2. Superman
3. Orion, Marvel, Thor
4. Hercules, WW
5. Surfer

Characters I placed in the same rank are fairly evenly matched in my opinion or the difference is so small that it wouldn't be a deciding factor in a fight.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
You're forgetting that it works both ways kiddo. People can *generally* say whatever they want (there are limits on free speech) and in turn people can respond how they choose. He/she has just as much right to respond as you have to post in the first place.

And I hate to speak for others but I think his/her distaste for your comments has less to do with liking Wonder Woman and more to do with not being a fan of misogyny in any context.



First of all mind your own buisness Q99 is a big boy. SO because I don't like bit ch ass wonder woman I don't like women. You are a f'n dick. I have plenty of women characters I like. One of my favorite characters is Mary Marvel. I dislike wolverine and Hulk does that mean I dislike men? Think before you get involved in something you know nothing about, less you make yourself look like an ass hole. I figure though that is a trait you are used to.

why exactly are cap and superman in different tiers? there strength has been said to be exact equals on panel in a arm wrestle, the same thing happend in marvel with thor and herc.

Originally posted by carver9
Where are you getting that it takes time for Glads to fly at light? This same person that takes time flew at 100 times the speed of light instantly. It is not only logically impossible to reach ANY speed instantaneously but it doesn't even happen in comics. Based off Surfer's best speed feat he still didn't reach light speed until after the first 3 meters of travel.

If anyone can instantly move at light speed or beyond without having to accelerate to it then they can't be beat period.

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
why exactly are cap and superman in different tiers? there strength has been said to be exact equals on panel in a arm wrestle, the same thing happend in marvel with thor and herc. That doesn't quite prove anything since some characters have mental blocks that can only be removed through some device (anger, madness, someone very important on the line, etc.)

WM Thor is an example
Unleashed Superman is another example

Also beings are upgraded or there dynamics change throughout the years. For example, Thing started off a class 5 but he is much higher than that now without explanation. Superman had several increases in strength even after he armwrestled CM. The comics even explicitly mention it. Characters can even get weaker over the years too. It all depends. I used to bench over 300lb. some years ago when I played division I baseball. Today I would be lucky just to get 250lb up once.

Lastly, The Thor and Herc thing isn't canon (although it did occur in a canon comic after the story was over just for shits and giggles).

Originally posted by Colossus-Big C
why exactly are cap and superman in different tiers? there strength has been said to be exact equals on panel in a arm wrestle, the same thing happend in marvel with thor and herc.
Pretty sure that arm wrestling contest was Cap vs Byrne Era Superman (who's weaker than current) and Cap had to strain himself to match him.

Superman and Cap are closer than WW and Superman are, but I call bullshit on them being dead equal. At best they've been shown to be peers.

Supes, Cap, Thor, Herc is all the same strength.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Pretty sure that arm wrestling contest was Cap vs Byrne Era Superman (who's weaker than current) and Cap had to strain himself to match him.

Superman and Cap are closer than WW and Superman are, but I call bullshit on them being dead equal. At best they've been shown to be peers.

He didn't so much strain as he stacked Atlas' power with Hercules in an effort to match Superman, something which we've not seen since when they've encountered one another. They also stalemated in arm-wrestling once before for hours on end with no clear winner. And while Superman's become more powerful, so has Cap.

They're shown and stated to be equal a great deal of the time as far as DC is concerned, though. Superman's other powers put him over Cap in terms of versatility, but in the physical sense, we see them stalemate and hear Superman concede that Cap is too evenly matched with himself or claims he is his equal.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
First of all mind your own buisness Q99 is a big boy. SO because I don't like bit ch ass wonder woman I don't like women. You are a f'n dick. I have plenty of women characters I like. One of my favorite characters is Mary Marvel. I dislike wolverine and Hulk does that mean I dislike men? Think before you get involved in something you know nothing about, less you make yourself look like an ass hole. I figure though that is a trait you are used to.


Q99 is perfectly capable of speaking for himself. I'm also allowed to comment as I see fit. If you are going to post on a forum, I would think that you'd expect people to respond. Otherwise you should utilize private messages.

And no, disliking WW does not make you a misogynist. Your comments separate from liking or disliking the character were problematic. Understanding that, however, would require a level of comprehension that is probably beyond your intellect. That is a shortcoming I am sure you are used to.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Pretty sure that arm wrestling contest was Cap vs Byrne Era Superman (who's weaker than current) and Cap had to strain himself to match him.

Superman and Cap are closer than WW and Superman are, but I call bullshit on them being dead equal. At best they've been shown to be peers.

Superman admitted on more than one occassion that Cap and his strength are pretty much equal. Hell, he almost had a heart attack off of Cap PL when he merged with him.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman admitted on more than one occassion that Cap and his strength are pretty much equal. Hell, he almost had a heart attack off of Cap PL when he merged with him.

Superman never unloaded multi planetary force on him (for good reason). Plus Clark has mental blocks that subconsciously makes him hold back his true strength. Character's words hold no water if there exists contradicting evidence shown around.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman admitted on more than one occassion that Cap and his strength are pretty much equal. Hell, he almost had a heart attack off of Cap PL when he merged with him.

Not really.

If you bring up Superman/Batman, ima smack you.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
He didn't so much strain as he stacked Atlas' power with Hercules in an effort to match Superman, something which we've not seen since when they've encountered one another. They also stalemated in arm-wrestling once before for hours on end with no clear winner. And while Superman's become more powerful, so has Cap.

They're shown and stated to be equal a great deal of the time as far as DC is concerned, though. Superman's other powers put him over Cap in terms of versatility, but in the physical sense, we see them stalemate and hear Superman concede that Cap is too evenly matched with himself or claims he is his equal.
Has Superman ever gone all out against Cap though? We both know that a no-holding back Superman and normal Superman are totally different animals.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
First of all mind your own buisness Q99 is a big boy. SO because I don't like bit ch ass wonder woman I don't like women. You are a f'n dick. I have plenty of women characters I like. One of my favorite characters is Mary Marvel. I dislike wolverine and Hulk does that mean I dislike men? Think before you get involved in something you know nothing about, less you make yourself look like an ass hole. I figure though that is a trait you are used to.



Sasaraixx has the right of it- you act like a misogynist ass.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Has Superman ever gone all out against Cap though? We both know that a no-holding back Superman and normal Superman are totally different animals.

No and to my knowledge, neither has Cap gone all out on Superman. The closest examples would be Eclipso-possessed Superman and an Ultra-Humanite possessed Superman, though the second Eclipso-Supes didn't try to kill Cap - he was still exercising far less restraint than Superman himself does - and the Ultra-Humanite possessed Superman also had Wonder Woman and a host of other heroes backing them up.

The second eclipso supes fight showed that even while he himself is hesistant and fighting a less restrained superman, Cap could still match him in strength.

Remember when they locked hands? Dead even.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
The second eclipso supes fight showed that even while he himself is hesistant and fighting a less restrained superman, Cap could still match him in strength.

Remember when they locked hands? Dead even.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
No and to my knowledge, neither has Cap gone all out on Superman.
Does Cap have instances where he's shown to be considerably more powerful when "going all out" the way Superman does?

If not, then this argument is facile.

Originally posted by lawest9
Superman
Hulk
Thor
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Silver Surfer
Hercules (Marvel)-immortal
Wonder Woman
Orion

All class 100, But rank them in order from 1 to 8. Would like to add BLACK ADAM and SUB-MARINER to this list as well to further stir the pot!

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman never unloaded multi planetary force on him (for good reason). Plus Clark has mental blocks that subconsciously makes him hold back his true strength. Character's words hold no water if there exists contradicting evidence shown around.

Hush your mouth. You don't know what in the h*ll you are talking about. Superman unleashed those mental blocks on both Diana and Black Adam and they both held their own "while holding back".

Read some comics and then debate. You irritate me with this nonscense that you throw out and I'm not going to go 4 pages like other people do against you talking about a character or characters you have zero knowledge about.

Beautiful, Carver telling someone to read Comics about the chars he is debating, simply beautiful.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Does Cap have instances where he's shown to be considerably more powerful when "going all out" the way Superman does?

If not, then this argument is facile.

Captain Marvel never goes all out, its not in character for him but they are equals and in a fist fight, I would give CM the edge.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Beautiful, Carver telling someone to read Comics about the chars he is debating, simply beautiful.



BP, please don't make me choke you.

I provide scans on every character I debate for. I'm just that good.

Originally posted by carver9
Captain Marvel never goes all out, its not in character for him but they are equals and in a fist fight, I would give CM the edge.
Captain Marvel never going out doesn't mean we are to assume he'd be able to match an all-out Superman.

That's a no-limits fallacy.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Captain Marvel never going out doesn't mean we are to assume he'd be able to match an all-out Superman.

That's a no-limits fallacy.

Why wouldn't he be able to match him when in a holding back match with both, Captain Marvel tends to hold the edge. Superman punched and heat visioned Cap and he suffered no damage where Cap punched Superman one time and busted his face up. Remember, this was a holding back fight for both (Cap was actually smiling during this fight).

A going all out fight shouldn't look so good imo.

Heat vision from an all out Superman would have f'ed CM up. I don't think he wants to be on the wrong side of a HV blast from an all out Supes. Those things can go right through top tiers.

Originally posted by Allankles
Heat vision from an all out Superman would have f'ed CM up. I don't think he wants to be on the wrong side of a HV blast from an all out Supes. Those things can go right through top tiers.

A sun amped none holding back Supes that was trying to kill Diana heat visioned her from Earth all the way to the sun and it didn't cause her any physical damage and it didn't go through her. It was hurting but it was something that she brushed off when it was done (after she got him off of her). Stop making up crap.

Captain Marvel would handle that and fight through it. What would a all out blast of magical lightning or magical charged fist from an all out Cap do to Supes?

Originally posted by carver9
A sun amped none holding back Supes that was trying to kill Diana heat visioned her from Earth all the way to the sun and it didn't cause her any physical damage and it didn't go through her. It was hurting but it was something that she brushed off when it was done (after she got him off of her). Stop making up crap.

Captain Marvel would handle that and fight through it. What would a all out blast of magical lightning or magical charged fist from an all out Cap do to Supes?


....oh boy...first...she took the HV to her face and it burned to her bones, she then stuck her finger into his eyes and the HV went to the sides, though I'm sure between his cloed eyes, due to his eyelids...second, superman was out of his mind, fighting, which is not nearly anything like fighting smart, to his full potential or all out. He was angry but he was fighting max control too.

She didn't brush it off, he scarred her and burned to her bones. Read the comic Carver, seriously.

Originally posted by carver9
A sun amped none holding back Supes that was trying to kill Diana heat visioned her from Earth all the way to the sun and it didn't cause her any physical damage and it didn't go through her. It was hurting but it was something that she brushed off when it was done (after she got him off of her). Stop making up crap.

Captain Marvel would handle that and fight through it. What would a all out blast of magical lightning or magical charged fist from an all out Cap do to Supes?

He parboiled Despero's face. Martian Vision (less than Supes HV by feats) melted BA's face. Zod (a ruthless kryptonian) was able to blast Supes with HV that went through his shoulder.

Superman's HV itself has no known upper limit. It can apparently punch through a white dwarf star and reignite stars.

He's also used it - with one single planet-wide beam - to reheat the entire Earth and change it's climate.

No one was going to write WW's face getting destroyed by Supes HV, especially in her own title.

EDIT: And also, about 12 Kryptonians who had only just had their powers for a few days (or weeks at the most) were able to kill Doomsday with their heat vision.

Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldn't he be able to match him when in a holding back match with both, Captain Marvel tends to hold the edge. Superman punched and heat visioned Cap and he suffered no damage where Cap punched Superman one time and busted his face up. Remember, this was a holding back fight for both (Cap was actually smiling during this fight).

A going all out fight shouldn't look so good imo.
...Carver...you're ignoring my argument.

Let me put it in terms you'd understand. Hulk can get stronger when he gets angrier. Lets just say that at base Hercules starts off as strong as Hulk even if he's holding back.

Now we have Herc stop holding back while Hulk continues to get angrier, they're both going all out in their own ways but Hulk is stronger.

Read OWAW, when Superman starts cutting loose he's head and shoulders above his "peers".

Cap has no such showings that I can think of to suggest him not holding back would make him a match for a non-holding back Superman.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
....oh boy...first...she took the HV to her face and it burned to her bones, she then stuck her finger into his eyes and the HV went to the sides, though I'm sure between his cloed eyes, due to his eyelids...second, superman was out of his mind, fighting, which is not nearly anything like fighting smart, to his full potential or all out. He was angry but he was fighting max control too.

She didn't brush it off, he scarred her and burned to her bones. Read the comic Carver, seriously.

I forgot about it burning into her bones.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
....oh boy...first...she took the HV to her face and it burned to her bones, she then stuck her finger into his eyes and the HV went to the sides, though I'm sure between his cloed eyes, due to his eyelids...second, superman was out of his mind, fighting, which is not nearly anything like fighting smart, to his full potential or all out. He was angry but he was fighting max control too.

She didn't brush it off, he scarred her and burned to her bones. Read the comic Carver, seriously.

Show me that scan of it going through her. Her hands were also able to stop it. Superman WAS TRYING TO KILL HER BECAUSE HE THOUGHT SHE WAS DOOMSDAY THAT JUST KILLED LOIS. There was no control fighting, he UNLEASHED on her and Diana states this as well in this comic.

She brushed the attack off after it was done. She didn't put her hand in the mark, she didn't do anything after that but fight. It didn't have an ongoing pain towards her.

Fighting smart does not equal not going all out. Do you not know the difference? In that fight, Supes didn't hold back his punches or his power and tried to kill her on NUMEROUS of occassions. Now he could have fought smart and used his abilities DIFFERENT but she dealt with his true PL and did not get burned through like Allankle stated.

Originally posted by Allankles
I forgot about it burning into her bones.

Yep, his speed was also at least 5 times the speed of light, from sun to earth, at the very least.

Originally posted by Allankles
I forgot about it burning into her bones.

It didn't burn through her bones, she felt it on her bone. Nothing went through her. I am about to post the entire fight just to prove my point.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Yep, his speed was also at least 5 times the speed of light, from sun to earth, at the very least.

Why was it 5 times the speed of light?

Originally posted by carver9
Why was it 5 times the speed of light?
Because he played rock paper scissors a few times.

Originally posted by carver9
Show me that scan of it going through her. Her hands were also able to stop it. Superman WAS TRYING TO KILL HER BECAUSE HE THOUGHT SHE WAS DOOMSDAY THAT JUST KILLED LOIS. There was no control fighting, he UNLEASHED on her and Diana states this as well in this comic.

She brushed the attack off after it was done. She didn't put her hand in the mark, she didn't do anything after that but fight. It didn't have an ongoing pain towards her.

Fighting smart does not equal not going all out. Do you not know the difference? In that fight, Supes didn't hold back his punches or his power and tried to kill her on NUMEROUS of occassions. Now he could have fought smart and used his abilities DIFFERENT but she dealt with his true PL and did not get burned through like Allankle stated.

He was fighting Maxs Control and all out means, to the best of his abilities, if you have as many as supes. He is not Hulk who has just his strength...

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/wonder-woman-vs-symboite-spider-man-10826.jpg
btw after it she had scars on her face, two deep scars, he just began to HV her.

And why it was 5 times the speed of light? It wasn't it was much more. Read the comic, then you will know why.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
...Carver...you're ignoring my argument.

Let me put it in terms you'd understand. Hulk can get stronger when he gets angrier. Lets just say that at base Hercules starts off as strong as Hulk even if he's holding back.

Now we have Herc stop holding back while Hulk continues to get angrier, they're both going all out in their own ways but Hulk is stronger.

Read OWAW, when Superman starts cutting loose he's head and shoulders above his "peers".

Cap has no such showings that I can think of to suggest him not holding back would make him a match for a non-holding back Superman.

That's like saying Black Adam>Supes since he takes on LOADS of top tiers and run through them and this is a consistent thing. Superman is powerful and Cap is powerful as well, both hold back and while holdng back, they are equals, with the gloves off, you can't make assumptions.

I seen OWAW... so you are basing that Supes is>Captain Marvel off of one story line? A story that didn't even involve Cap until the end?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
He was fighting Maxs Control and all out means, to the best of his abilities, if you have as many as supes. He is not Hulk who has just his strength...

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/wonder-woman-vs-symboite-spider-man-10826.jpg
btw after it she had scars on her face, two deep scars, he just began to HV her.

And why it was 5 times the speed of light? It wasn't it was much more. Read the comic, then you will know why.

It didn't go through her, she felt it on her bone. I never said she wouldn't feel it.

I want you to tell me why it was 5 times the speed of light so that I can "own" you.

I think the scan shows, that she had to stop the HV, otherwise it would have become lethal.

Originally posted by carver9
That's like saying Black Adam>Supes since he takes on LOADS of top tiers and run through them and this is a consistent thing. Superman is powerful and Cap is powerful as well, both hold back and while holdng back, they are equals, with the gloves off, you can't make assumptions.

I seen OWAW... so you are basing that Supes is>Captain Marvel off of one story line? A story that didn't even involve Cap until the end?
Heh, Black Adam fights heroes who gimp themselves. Martian Manhunter on his own held his own against an all out Black Adam at the beginning of WW3.

No, that's one example. There's also the example of Apokolips Now. Though I don't agree with the way Darkseid was beaten the fact remains that the same Darkseid who was portrayed as a team wrecker got himself wrecked when Superman went all out.

Originally posted by Allankles
I think the scan shows, that she had to stop the HV, otherwise it would have become lethal.

I agree with this, it probably would have become lethal, it probably would have killed her if she allowed it to continue. You said that it goes through top tiers but it didn't go through her and Cap durability>Wondy.

Originally posted by carver9
I seen OWAW... A story that didn't even involve Cap until the end?

Read Superman the Man of Steel #117

Own yourself Carver, it's easier.

He just started his HV, and the scars went deep, to the bones.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Heh, Black Adam fights heroes who gimp themselves. Martian Manhunter on his own held his own against an all out Black Adam at the beginning of WW3.

No, that's one example. There's also the example of Apokolips Now. Though I don't agree with the way Darkseid was beaten the fact remains that the same Darkseid who was portrayed as a team wrecker got himself wrecked when Superman went all out.

Nice feats but none of that proves that Supes is above his peers just like Thor damaging abstract, handling attacks from a pissed Odin, defeating a god killer that was powered by 10000 gods, running through numerous of heralds doesn't put him far above Supes. Even though he has these showings, Supes is still his equal just like Captain Marvel is.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Read Superman the Man of Steel #117

Own yourself Carver, it's easier.

He just started his HV, and the scars went deep, to the bones.

I read it buddy. I want you to tell me why (Max Lord statement) so that I can own you. Why was it 5 times the speed of light?

Originally posted by carver9
I read it buddy. I want you to tell me why (Max Lord statement) so that I can own you. Why was it 5 times the speed of light?

If you read it, then why are you saying that Captain Marvel wasn't in OWAW? Huh? If you can't do the thinking, I won't for sure. It's enough to show you how wrong you are .

Originally posted by carver9
Nice feats but none of that proves that Supes is above his peers just like Thor damaging abstract, handling attacks from a pissed Odin, defeating a god killer that was powered by 10000 gods, running through numerous of heralds doesn't put him far above Supes. Even though he has these showings, Supes is still his equal just like Captain Marvel is.
Smh...

Captain Marvel has no showings/feats that suggest him being comparable to Superman if Superman is going all out.

Period.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
If you read it, then why are you saying that Captain Marvel wasn't in OWAW? Huh? If you can't do the thinking, I won't for sure. It's enough to show you how wrong you are .

Reread my post... I said that he was in the story... he showed up during the end teamed up with Supes, Cap Atom, and Steel. I own the comic nut.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Smh...

Captain Marvel has no showings/feats that suggest him being comparable to Superman if Superman is going all out.

Period.

Even though they have been classified as peers? Doesn't make sense to me. Wonder Woman showing>Captain Marvel but its pretty much common sense who would win in a fight.

Originally posted by carver9
Reread my post... I said that he was in the story... he showed up during the end teamed up with Supes, Cap Atom, and Steel. I own the comic nut.

So he was in the story and still Superman was the main man, righhhhht? And superman was above his peers in this story, righhht? Thanks, we agree then^^.

Originally posted by carver9
Even though they have been classified as peers? Doesn't make sense to me. Wonder Woman showing>Captain Marvel but its pretty much common sense who would win in a fight.
They're peers when Superman is holding back.

Just like Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Green Lantern are peers to a holding back Superman.

Superman can and has taken it to another level where he's clearly above all of them by some noticeable degree.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
They're peers when Superman is holding back.

Just like Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Green Lantern are peers to a holding back Superman.

Superman can and has taken it to another level where he's clearly above all of them by some noticeable degree.

No, they are equal wen the both of them holds back, we don't know HOW a fight between the 2 will go if they went all out. What top tier has Superman ran through to make you suggest he is above Cap?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So he was in the story and still Superman was the main man, righhhhht? And superman was above his peers in this story, righhht? Thanks, we agree then^^.

He had a limited showing... 2 panels. The story was focused on Supes. That was Superman highlight just like it was Wonder Woman highlight against Amazo.

Originally posted by carver9
No, they are equal wen the both of them holds back, we don't know HOW a fight between the 2 will go if they went all out. What top tier has Superman ran through to make you suggest he is above Cap?
No holding back Superman beat Darkseid to a bloody pulp, manhandled Wonder Woman, and tore through a few Imperiex Probes which had previously been punking Top Tiers in groups.

Comparatively we have normal Superman struggling and needing Mongul's help to defeat just one of the Probes.

DOS Superman (weaker than current btw) stopped holding back and the mere shockwave of his punch colliding with Doomsday (not even hitting the planet directly) caused large scale planet-wide seismic activity.

So this Cap=Superman when both are holding back means that Superman=Cap absolutely and unequivocally is nonsense.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Q99 is perfectly capable of speaking for himself. I'm also allowed to comment as I see fit. If you are going to post on a forum, I would think that you'd expect people to respond. Otherwise you should utilize private messages.

And no, disliking WW does not make you a misogynist. Your comments separate from liking or disliking the character were problematic. Understanding that, however, would require a level of comprehension that is probably beyond your intellect. That is a shortcoming I am sure you are used to.

I don't have time for this. You couldn't even think of a good argument without using my words and trying to twist them. You are so pathetic that you tried to use the same style of insult that I used. You have zero originality and are not on the level of Carver or some of the others I talk/argue with.

As far as responding to my post. There are open post that leave room to be responed by everyone, and post directed to certain people. My post was the second kind. You are not Q99, but I will address why you feel the need to protect him in my next paragraph.

You are a person who is insecure about his sexuality, which is why you are trying so hard to understand why you feel like I insulted you when in reality I was insulting Wonder Woman. Your inability to express your feelings to Q99 is not my problem. If you have gay feelings for him or need to protect him then do as you feel. I will no longer be responding to you as I have stuff to do and tend to stay away from those protecting those they love. Jealous women or jealous guy/women who think like women are the worst kind to be around.

Originally posted by carver9
Supes, Cap, Thor, Herc is all the same strength.

Carver I disagree. Superman has feats that are way above what herc has done. Maybe the ability of flight makes Superman seem greater than Herc. I just don't see how you can put him in the convo with Superman.

Can you honestly say that Herc could hang with Superman in a fight? Could hang with Cap? I don't think as versatile as Thor is that Hercules can stand a chance. Should he even be able to hang with Thor?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
No holding back Superman beat Darkseid to a bloody pulp, manhandled Wonder Woman, and tore through a few Imperiex Probes which had previously been punking Top Tiers in groups.

Comparatively we have normal Superman struggling and needing Mongul's help to defeat just one of the Probes.

DOS Superman (weaker than current btw) stopped holding back and the mere shockwave of his punch colliding with Doomsday (not even hitting the planet directly) caused large scale planet-wide seismic activity.

So this Cap=Superman when both are holding back means that Superman=Cap absolutely and unequivocally is nonsense.

When has a normal Supes beaten Darkseid to a pulp? When did he manhandle Wonder Woman? I give you the Probes. Did Cap fight any Probes? Wonder Woman mother also took down 3 Probes by herself.

I'm not saying that Supes is weak.

How about this, Thor has some of the best showings vs abstracts, skyfathers, and trans level beings out of ANY Herald. Who is more powerful, Supes or Thor?

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
Carver I disagree. Superman has feats that are way above what herc has done. Maybe the ability of flight makes Superman seem greater than Herc. I just don't see how you can put him in the convo with Superman.

Can you honestly say that Herc could hang with Superman in a fight? Could hang with Cap? I don't think as versatile as Thor is that Hercules can stand a chance. Should he even be able to hang with Thor? With equal speed Herc can do a lot more than just hang with them in a fight.

Originally posted by carver9
When has a normal Supes beaten Darkseid to a pulp? When did he manhandle Wonder Woman? I give you the Probes. Did Cap fight any Probes? Wonder Woman mother also took down 3 Probes by herself.

I'm not saying that Supes is weak.

How about this, Thor has some of the best showings vs abstracts, skyfathers, and trans level beings out of ANY Herald. Who is more powerful, Supes or Thor?
Apokolips Now.

Infinite Crisis. Though technically speaking he was mind controlled, so its hard to gauge that.

Lol, you've tried to sell this bullshit about 'Lyta before. It didn't fly then it won't fly now.

Hypolyta herself was shocked when she saw Superman tear those probes apart, if she had done it as easily as you suggest why would she be so shocked?

Lol. Most of these showings contain context or are overblown. Do you want me to start including showings where Superman is sunamped/sundipped? Maybe his myriad of high end/bizarre feats in Final Crisis?

But this Thor crap is a Red Herring to distract from the fact that Cap lacks anything to support him being = to a non-holding back Superman. Focus on Cap, not Thor. We aren't discussing Thor here.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Apokolips Now.

Infinite Crisis. Though technically speaking he was mind controlled, so its hard to gauge that.

Lol, you've tried to sell this bullshit about 'Lyta before. It didn't fly then it won't fly now.

Hypolyta herself was shocked when she saw Superman tear those probes apart, if she had done it as easily as you suggest why would she be so shocked?

Lol. Most of these showings contain context or are overblown. Do you want me to start including showings where Superman is sunamped/sundipped? Maybe his myriad of high end/bizarre feats in Final Crisis?

But this Thor crap is a Red Herring to distract from the fact that Cap lacks anything to support him being = to a non-holding back Superman. Focus on Cap, not Thor. We aren't discussing Thor here.

When did Supes had a fist fight with DS during IF? Please show.

How was Hypo shocked at Superman fighting the Probes when she was dead?

No they don't contain context. Thor under normal circumstances again, has some of the best showings out of the Heralds.

I still don't understand why you thinl Cap isn't equal to Supes.

Originally posted by Mindset
With equal speed Herc can do a lot more than just hang with them in a fight.

Yeah I was saying the ability of flight gave them the edge, but you are right it's the speed.

a). Superman was weakened by kryptonite.
b). Verbal props, the same thing I already adressed in my post.
c). You're not helping your case of "Captain Marvel is as powerful as Superman" if you post a scan where Superman directly says that magic is a factor in their confrontations.
d). I'm glad you agree then, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel's striking power are at the same level.

You're just not very good at this.

Originally posted by carver9
When did Supes had a fist fight with DS during IF? Please show.

How was Hypo shocked at Superman fighting the Probes when she was dead?

No they don't contain context. Thor under normal circumstances again, has some of the best showings out of the Heralds.

I still don't understand why you thinl Cap isn't equal to Supes.
Apokolips Now, not Infinite Crisis, pay attention.

My bad on the Hypolyta bit, I was mixing it up with something else. Still you are leaving out some important information regarding that incident. For one Lyta was amped considerably, she had the Gauntlets of Atlas which grant a 10x strength amp and the Sandals of Hermes which grant a 10x speed increase, not to mention she had some fairly potent weapons.

So to act like plain old 'Lyta could beat two probes is just inane.

They do contain context, you're just unaware of that context/ignoring it to serve your own arguments. Still just a Red Herring to distract from the fact you don't have a real argument.

I don't believe it because Cap is only shown to be comparable to a holding back Superman, and no-holding back Supes is much more powerful.

Carver, warned for trolling, baiting, etc.

I think "no holding back Superman" is a bit of an outdated concept. The idea was that he was holding himself in check unconsciously since childhood and thus he was actually more powerful than he let himself be due to his subconscious mental blocks blah blah.

But New Krypton didnt really show the powerlevels of Kryptonians with none of Supermans "mental blocks" as being anything particularly special. They all seemed like Superman but with much less experience in using their powers skilfully and a lot of them looked much less powerful due to being fodder. According to the holding back theory they should have been monsters. The idea that other Kryptonians were more powerful was briefly in play when Kara first showed up but since then shes rapidly drifted down to be a definite second fiddle to your everyday Superman in terms of power and i dont think the ideas been mentioned since.

It was a nice idea i guess back in 2001 but it seems to have died off when Loeb left DC and i think people (understandably i suppose) make way too big a deal out of it. Much more likely than not CM and Superman will be shown as peers no matter what.

Originally posted by Hyperion Prime

As far as responding to my post. There are open post that leave room to be responed by everyone, and post directed to certain people. My post was the second kind. You are not Q99, but I will address why you feel the need to protect him in my next paragraph.

You are a person who is insecure about his sexuality, which is why you are trying so hard to understand why you feel like I insulted you when in reality I was insulting Wonder Woman. Your inability to express your feelings to Q99 is not my problem. If you have gay feelings for him or need to protect him then do as you feel. I will no longer be responding to you as I have stuff to do and tend to stay away from those protecting those they love. Jealous women or jealous guy/women who think like women are the worst kind to be around.

And again, if you post in a public forum you invite anyone to respond. You should have utilized the private message function.

You are still not able to understand the point I was making from the beginning. Instead, you try to attack my sexuality, which btw, was never in doubt. Nor did I ever say that you insulted me. I realize that I am asking you to operate on a level of discussion about that of 8th grade name calling. Your initial comment was misogynistic. Saying that I am in love with Q99 doesn't change that. Now if you want to have a real discussion as to why that is, then send me a message.

Originally posted by Fifthchild
I think "no holding back Superman" is a bit of an outdated concept. The idea was that he was holding himself in check unconsciously since childhood and thus he was actually more powerful than he let himself be due to his subconscious mental blocks blah blah.

But New Krypton didnt really show the powerlevels of Kryptonians with none of Supermans "mental blocks" as being anything particularly special. They all seemed like Superman but with much less experience in using their powers skilfully and a lot of them looked much less powerful due to being fodder. According to the holding back theory they should have been monsters. The idea that other Kryptonians were more powerful was briefly in play when Kara first showed up but since then shes rapidly drifted down to be a definite second fiddle to your everyday Superman in terms of power and i dont think the ideas been mentioned since.


The 'holding back' thing is really about Superman specifically; he's stronger than just about any other Kryptonian. Also, the difference between a highly experienced fighter with a massive willpower pushing himself to the limit is a lot different than someone who isn't holding back, but also isn't experienced or used to pushing themselves to their limits. Learning how to push oneself to the max is a skill too.

There is a noticeable disparity between his normal fighting and when he really goes all-out. Superman vs the Elite or Superman vs Imperiex probes are both illustrations.