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Seriously. It seems like Ben could have helped the cause a LOT more if he would have opted to stay alive... Especially since he knew Yoda was the only other 'actual' Jedi left.

I'd assume he realized that if he continued to fight Luke would stay to help him out. Furthermore, I think Ben also realized he would be unable to defeat Vader. So he sacrificed himself so Luke would run off.

Yeah, but why not try to avoid the conflict all together? ie. turn off the generator, and gtfo. It just seems like he could have trained Luke much better, and helped the Alliance tremendously, if he were alive.

I think he managed to help Luke more in his Force spirit form because he was able to watch over Luke a whole lot better...other than when Luke and Vader fought on cloud city. I think he was able to guide Luke a whole lot better and he certainly was helpful when he helped Luke destroy the death star when he told Luke to use the force.

But there was years-long gaps in which Luke didn't commune with Ben's spirit at all (referring mainly between ANH, and ESB.) Had Ben stayed alive, he could have spent that time actually training Luke, no?

You're not allowed to talk about events between ANH and ESB...that would be counted as the EU I think. Maybe Ben felt like it would be better if Yoda trained him, he could have been communicating with Yoda and convincing him to train Luke. '

I'm not talking about what happened in between that time, I'm just saying that there were multiple years in which Luke didn't speak with Ben whatsoever. Had Ben actually stuck around and trained Luke, instead of selfishly allowing himself to die, Luke probably would have been able to do more than move a lightsaber with the force by the time ESB came around.

You are talking about time between the movies though because this did happen between ANH and ESB. He didn't 'selfishly' allow himself to die, he sacrificed himself to give the the falcon and Luke enough time to escape. There was no way they would get away in time if they had waited for Ben.

Originally posted by steverules_2
You are talking about time between the movies though because this did happen between ANH and ESB.

He didn't 'selfishly' allow himself to die, he sacrificed himself to give the the falcon and Luke enough time to escape. There was no way they would get away in time if they had waited for Ben. No. All I'm saying is that instead of going several years without so much as talking to Luke as a spirit, a living Ben could have used that time to train him as a Jedi. It's a theoretical situation that does not involve the literal EU whatsoever.

Pfft, they had more then enough time to escape. Ben is a selfish old man. Clearly. sly

Ben could easily train him in spirit form, he managed to help him destroy the death star! He was more powerful in his spirit form and more helpful to Luke as he could quide Luke whenever he needed it. In that fight that I just mentioned he managed to be there for Luke and guiding him through it, if he wasn't in his spirit form chances are he wouldn't have been able to do that unless they were on a cell phone to each other or maybe Ben could be on the side line with a note pad and shouting instructions at Luke through a mega phone.

Originally posted by steverules_2
Ben could easily train him in spirit form, he managed to help him destroy the death star! He was more powerful in his spirit form and more helpful to Luke as he could quide Luke whenever he needed it.

In that fight that I just mentioned he managed to be there for Luke and guiding him through it, if he wasn't in his spirit form chances are he wouldn't have been able to do that unless they were on a cell phone to each other or maybe Ben could be on the side line with a note pad and shouting instructions at Luke through a mega phone. When Luke was on Hoth during ESB, he was shocked that he could see and speak to Ben. That means he likely hadn't communed with Ben since ANH - which accounts for a solid 3 years in which Luke had no formal training/guidance. Surely if Ben were alive, that 3 years would have counted for a lot more - especially considering how fast Luke was able to advance his skillset.

lol, the only 'guidance' Ben offered Luke just before he destroyed the Death Star was: "use the force, Luke." You don't think a living Ben could have said the same thing just before Luke left to engage the Death Star?

He told Luke when he really needed it and no I don't because Luke wasn't the one who was ordered to fire and destroy the death star, but he was the only one left who could do it...everyone else got taken out..and when I say taken out I don't mean on a date with vader for a steak dinner.

He didn't seem shocked, considering Luke was able to force grab his sabre (although not very well) he still managed to do it meaning someone obviously taught him how to do it. He was still in the early stages of learning.

Originally posted by steverules_2
He told Luke when he really needed it and no I don't because Luke wasn't the one who was ordered to fire and destroy the death star, but he was the only one left who could do it...everyone else got taken out..and when I say taken out I don't mean on a date with vader for a steak dinner.

He didn't seem shocked, considering Luke was able to force grab his sabre (although not very well) he still managed to do it meaning someone obviously taught him how to do it. He was still in the early stages of learning. Ben had nothing to do with why Luke didn't get blasted down by Vader.

Luke was shocked to see Ben - which implies that he hadn't seen or spoke to him since ANH:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnTGy9jS-Dg&feature=related
(2:46)

It was never mentioned in the films that Luke was trained by anyone between ANH and ESB. Thus, the TK he displayed on Hoth HAD to have been self-taught.

Thats correct...so please tell me at what point in the movie did Luke say that Ben had taught him nothing? He had obviously been taught to force grab by Ben...if it was simple as being able to train yourself then Luke wouldn't have needed to go to Dagobah for training. He was obviously quided through his training by Ben.

Not really sure thats shock or him trying to see whats in front of him...maybe he hadn't seen Bens spirit but I'm sure he was taught by Bens spirit.

Originally posted by steverules_2
Thats correct...so please tell me at what point in the movie did Luke say that Ben had taught him nothing? He had obviously been taught to force grab by Ben...if it was simple as being able to train yourself then Luke wouldn't have needed to go to Dagobah for training. He was obviously quided through his training by Ben.

Not really sure thats shock or him trying to see whats in front of him...maybe he hadn't seen Bens spirit but I'm sure he was taught by Bens spirit. We know what Ben taught Luke during ANH, because we saw their entire training regimen - and at no point in time was Luke given a telekinesis lesson... He had just started learning how to handle a lightsaber for crying out loud (a task even the younglings of the Republic were more than capable of.) That being said, unless you have proof that Ben instructed Luke in the ways of TK then, as I said before, we must assume the weaksauce TK he demonstrated on Hoth was self-taught. Hell, that may have been the first time he used that ability at all (it was spawned out of necessity, after all.)

And you're sure how? I never heard Luke mention that Ben had been training him in the 3 years beween ANH/ESB... And judging by the look on his face/sound of his voice when he saw Ben on Hoth, he hadn't exactly been around much during that time.

But you have NO proof that he wasn;t around during that time either...at no point in the movie did he say 'I've been self teaching myself everything I know!' To be honest there is proof that Ben had been teaching him but it was just never mentioned in the movies, it was either in books or comics.

Originally posted by steverules_2
But you have NO proof that he wasn;t around during that time either...

To be honest there is proof that Ben had been teaching him but it was just never mentioned in the movies, it was either in books or comics. Thing is, I don't need to prove a negative.

What happened to the no EU rule you mentioned earlier?

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, but why not try to avoid the conflict all together? ie. turn off the generator, and gtfo. It just seems like he could have trained Luke much better, and helped the Alliance tremendously, if he were alive.

True. But how could he have escaped? IIRC he was heading to the Fakcon when Vader ambushed him. What else could he do but fight him, especially since Han and Luke weren't at the Falcon at the time.

Originally posted by ares834
True. But how could he have escaped? IIRC he was heading to the Fakcon when Vader ambushed him. What else could he do but fight him, especially since Han and Luke weren't at the Falcon at the time. He could have ran away... Always worked for everyone else in the OT.

Where would he have ran to though? He couldn't leave the DS yet as Luke hadn't returned to the falcon.

Back the way he came?

Srsly though, considering Ben knew he was one of the last Jedi in existence, it seems like the best option would have been to avoid to conflict all together to further train Luke/preserve the order... Or he could have at least put up a better fight against Vader (it's not like he seemed outclassed in their battle, after all.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Back the way he came?

I guess. I always just took it that he thought he was powerful enough to defeat Vader.



True. But I think he realized after fighting abit that his chance against Vader was slim and he needed Luke to escape the station alive.

What I always wondered was why he didn't tell Luke about Yoda sooner.

Yeah, I just think it was a poor decision on Ben's part. Just imagine how far Luke could have advanced if Ben were alive and constantly training him over the years. He likely could have beaten Vader by the time ESB rolled around.

Originally posted by Galan007
Thing is, I don't need to prove a negative.

What happened to the no EU rule you mentioned earlier?

But you're still saying that Ben didn't teach him...you have no proof that Ben didn't teach him...so I would like to see proof that he didn't cause you seem pretty dead set on Ben doing nothing towatds Luke's progress in the force

I said it was mentioned in the EU, I never said I was using the EU as proof, so the rule I mentioned earlier is a rule I'm following otherwise this page would be filled with proof from the EU that Ben did in fact help Luke in using the force. Yoda mentioned that Luke was too old to be taught, maybe an older person is slower in learning...there's nothing to prove that but there's nothing that doesn't prove it.

Originally posted by steverules_2
But you're still saying that Ben didn't teach him...you have no proof that Ben didn't teach him...so I would like to see proof that he didn't cause you seem pretty dead set on Ben doing nothing towatds Luke's progress in the force My evidence:
-We never saw Ben instruct Luke in the ways of telekinesis.
-Luke never mentioned having spoke to, and/or trained with, Ben between ANH and ESB. Therefore, we cannot assume he had, just because he was able to utilize TK out of necessity.
-Luke was shocked to see/commune with Ben on Hoth - implying that he hadn't seen Ben since ANH. You can disagree with that all you want, but Luke's facial expressions and tone of voice are clear.

Where the films are concerned, there's nothing that is indicative of Luke being trained by Ben after ANH. However, there is evidence that suggests he had not been trained during that time.

Originally posted by Galan007
My evidence:
-We never saw Ben instruct Luke in the ways of telekinesis.
-Luke never mentioned having spoke to, and/or trained with, Ben between ANH and ESB. Therefore, we cannot assume he had, just because he was able to utilize TK out of necessity.
-Luke was shocked to see/commune with Ben on Hoth - implying that he hadn't seen Ben since ANH. You can disagree with that all you want, but Luke's facial expressions and tone of voice are clear.

Where the films are concerned, there's nothing that is indicative of Luke being trained by Ben after ANH. However, there is evidence that suggests he had not been trained during that time.

My evidence:
-Sure we never saw it, but it was still obvious that Ben had been training him
-Why would Luke mention he'd trained with Ben...'Yeah guys I know we're in the heat of a war and stuff...but I have been training in the ways of the force with the spirit of Ben!' Luke had clearly been training with Ben, you don't teach yourself the force.
-Luke may not have seen the spirit of Ben before...I mean he heard him in ANH but he never saw him so it may have been the first time he saw Ben. He seemed surprised when Ben popped up on Dagobah in ROTJ.

There is evidence that he had trained...he knew to force grab, he had obviously been training to do that with Ben.

Originally posted by steverules_2
My evidence:
-Sure we never saw it, but it was still obvious that Ben had been training him
-Why would Luke mention he'd trained with Ben...'Yeah guys I know we're in the heat of a war and stuff...but I have been training in the ways of the force with the spirit of Ben!' Luke had clearly been training with Ben, you don't teach yourself the force.
-Luke may not have seen the spirit of Ben before...I mean he heard him in ANH but he never saw him so it may have been the first time he saw Ben. He seemed surprised when Ben popped up on Dagobah in ROTJ.

There is evidence that he had trained...he knew to force grab, he had obviously been training to do that with Ben. You realize none of that is evidence, right? It is only your opinion.

It's not just my opinion it's pure common knowledge, there was no need for Luke to mention he was being trained by Ben because it would be useless information that has no part in the movie. We know he was trained because Jedi do not train themselves, they learn from their masters...Luke learned from Ben. No where in the movies did we once see a jedi train him/her self to use jedi force powers.

And in YOUR opinion Luke was shocked because he hadn't seen Ben since ANH, thats your opinion right there...no where in the movie did Luke imply or say that he hadn't seen Ben since ANH. He had been training with him, but obviously Ben knew that Yoda could train much better than he could.

Originally posted by steverules_2
It's not just my opinion it's pure common knowledge, there was no need for Luke to mention he was being trained by Ben because it would be useless information that has no part in the movie. We know he was trained because Jedi do not train themselves, they learn from their masters... So it's not your opinion that Ben had been training Luke between ANH and ESB, yet you have no way to support this 'factual' claim without delving into EU material (which is also iffy)? Riiight. Furthermore, considering most of ESB involved Luke training with Yoda, mentioning that he had been training with Ben over the past few years would have been extremely pertinent to the plot.

More on point: not only did Luke manifest TK out of absolute necessity on Hoth, but it was barely enough to levitate his lightsaber a foot or two in the air. So IF Ben had been training him between films (which, again, was never mentioned), he did an absolutely horrible job. Horrible.

So either Ben was incapable of teaching Luke the absolute basics of force manipulation over the span of 3 years (highly unlikely), or Luke simply taught himself that trick. Hell, given the situation I'd be more inclined to believe that was the first time Luke had utilized TK at all.

Originally posted by Galan007
So it's not your opinion that Ben had been training Luke between ANH and ESB, yet you have no way to support this 'factual' claim without delving into EU material (which is also iffy)? Riiight. Furthermore, considering most of ESB involved Luke training with Yoda, mentioning that he had been training with Ben over the past few years would have been extremely pertinent to the plot.

More on point: not only did Luke manifest TK out of absolute necessity on Hoth, but it was barely enough to levitate his lightsaber a foot or two in the air. So IF Ben had been training him between films (which, again, was never mentioned), he did an absolutely horrible job. Horrible.

So either Ben was incapable of teaching Luke the absolute basics of force manipulation over the span of 3 years (highly unlikely), or Luke simply taught himself that trick. Hell, given the situation I'd be more inclined to believe that was the first time Luke had utilized TK at all.

Training him could just easily have meant he trained him with the lightsabre...I didn't see Yoda teach him how to use the lightsabre properly but more in the ways of the force. Yet when he faced off against Vader his sabre skills were very advanced for someone in the early stages. AND...if I re-call...Vader said to Luke in ESB 'Obi-Wan has taught you well.' So Ben taught Luke how to use the lightsabre...and then moved onto the force which by the time ESB came around was probably in it's early stages. By the time ROTJ rolled around he had improved his sabre skills and force skills. Heh, how about that...guess it was mentioned that he had trained with Ben.

Originally posted by steverules_2
AND...if I re-call...Vader said to Luke in ESB 'Obi-Wan has taught you well.' ..Which is completely meaningless. There is absolutely no way Vader could have known (for sure) specifics like that... It's not like he'd been watching Luke's training regimen over the years.

Vader knows the moves and styles of his old master and he's gonna know them when he see's someone else who has trained with Obi-Wan and learnt what he did. Not once did we see Yoda train Luke with his lightsabre...why? Because he was already trained...and Ben clearly trained Luke in sabre dueling and such. The point is Vader knows Ben trained him. After a while of Vader and Luke fighting I'm sure Vader thought to himself 'This seems very familiar.'

Man, you're applying WAY more to the movies then what we were given/shown. Do you not think it's possible that Luke learned the absolute basics of lightsaber combat from Ben (which is all we were shown) and simply expanded on it from there? It's not like Luke was incapable of rapidly progressing his force-related abilities, after all.

Hell, Yoda only taught Luke the basics of force manipulation during ESB, but by the time RotJ rolled around (a mere 3 years later), Luke was able to use rather advanced techniques, such as the Jedi mind trick, and force choke. Self-teaching was Luke's thing.

I'm just saying that Ben did train Luke...maybe not so much in the force part but in the lightsabre part yes. Vader knows Ben trained Luke, he's not stupid.

Ben did train Luke in sabers. We saw him doing so in ANH. After Ben's death, Luke simply expanded his abilities, based on the basic training he received - not because Ben's spirit was there continuously instructing him during that time. If that was/is the case, he did an absolutely horrible job with his training (pre-Dagobah ESB Luke was pure weaksauce.)

Now after Luke got some actual training from Yoda, we saw how far he was able to progress his overall powerset in the 3 years between ESB and RotJ. The jump in power was HUGE. Like I said, self-teaching was Luke's bread and butter.

We barely Saw Luke's skill in the start of ESB, he managed to cut off the arm of that Wampa after he took that massive blow to the head...he must have still been groggy when he came to. Ben obviously taught Luke more in the ways of using a lightsabre...Yoda taught him nothing about it. Ben taught Luke to use the force by being able to block against that training ball. A little more than telekinesis. Just cause Ben died doesn't mean he wouldn't stop training Luke, he said he'd always be there for Luke near the end of ANH. He trained Luke, even when he was a spirit.

Originally posted by steverules_2
he said he'd always be there for Luke near the end of ANH. No, he said the force would always be there for Luke (ie. "The force will be with you... Always."

Well I still think he trained him after ANH

I have no idea why you make this so complex.

Ben was trying to get back to the Falcon but Vader was in the way. Once the fight started- and he noticed that Luke was staying to watch rather than getting moving- he understood he had actually now done all he could and it was better that he die then- and make sure Luke escaped- than anything else.

What the heck would running the other way have achieved? Back further into the Death Star? Other than just being a silly idea in general, it would only have meant Luke would have tried to come for him.

Meanwhile, saying Ben trained Luke after ANH is an assumption with no backing- best discarded.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I have no idea why you make this so complex.

Ben was trying to get back to the Falcon but Vader was in the way. Once the fight started- and he noticed that Luke was staying to watch rather than getting moving- he understood he had actually now done all he could and it was better that he die then- and make sure Luke escaped- than anything else.

What the heck would running the other way have achieved? Back further into the Death Star? Other than just being a silly idea in general, it would only have meant Luke would have tried to come for him. No, I understand that. I'm just saying that if Ben would have avoided the conflict all together, as opposed to dying, it would have been more beneficial for everyone.

Originally posted by Galan007
No, I understand that. I'm just saying that if Ben would have avoided the conflict all together, as opposed to dying, it would have been more beneficial for everyone.

What are you talking about? He did try to avoid fighting, hence the sneaking around.

It was Vader who sensed him and Vader who was looking for him and Vader who found and confronted him.

As for training between ANH and ESB, well we of course will not find evidence for this outside the EU, because its EU territory.

But we do know he guided Luke to use his powers in ANH after he died. I would count that as training. And possibly fulfilling the line "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
What are you talking about? He did try to avoid fighting, hence the sneaking around. Yeah, the word 'conflict' does not just entail Ben avoiding a fight with Vader, it means avoiding the Death Star all together. Again, it's completely theoretical.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, the word 'conflict' does not just entail Ben avoiding a fight with Vader, it means avoiding the Death Star all together. Again, it's completely theoretical.

Im still lost.. They were dragged into the Death Star via the tractor beam. Its not like they purposefully flew in there.

Unless your suggesting he should have avoided the whole mission altogether and stayed on tatooine just to train Luke??

Because he was OLLLLLLLLLLLLLLD!

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Unless your suggesting he should have avoided the whole mission altogether and stayed on tatooine just to train Luke?? Well, yeah, something like that would have helped the Alliance a LOT more.

Err... no, destroying the Death Star was what was needed. If he had stayed on Tatooine, Leia would be dead and the Death Star would have given the Emperor the full power he was after.

^ If you assume Kenobi was the only person capable of going to the generator room and flipping some switches.

^ Thats not what destroyed the Death Star. Thats how they escaped.

But if they didn't go on the Death Star mission Princess Leia would be dead. Several more planets with Rebel links would have been destroyed, and who knows possibly the Rebel Alliance killed as well.

The plans the rebels stole would have been thoroughly analyzed by the Empire with the DS's weakness possibly spotted and rectified.

The Emporer's power would be supreme.

On the plus side Luke (the Galaxy's last hope now that Princess Leia is dead) would have been trained to at least Padawan level!

Ah... an alternative universe saga in the making?

^ Lol Dnt worry. I like the OT the way it is/was!

I like to think Kenobi chose to sacrifice himself in order to fuel Luke's resolve to battle the empire. Luke was stuck in neverland during the Death Star adventure. Sure he made up his mind when his uncle and aunt were killed, but until then he was angry at a "faceless" behemoth. Kenobi's sacrifice hit Luke harder than the death of his foster parents IMO; and it helped focus Luke on what Obi & Yoda wanted Luke to do. Call it the force, call it whatever ye want but Kenobi had a much greater impact in Luke's life than poor Uncle Ben.

Besides the whole "create destraction for Luke and co. to escape."

The best explanation is...Ben was just a plot device biscuits

He was the mentor that was sort of done.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
I like to think Kenobi chose to sacrifice himself in order to fuel Luke's resolve to battle the empire. Luke was stuck in neverland during the Death Star adventure. Sure he made up his mind when his uncle and aunt were killed, but until then he was angry at a "faceless" behemoth. Kenobi's sacrifice hit Luke harder than the death of his foster parents IMO; and it helped focus Luke on what Obi & Yoda wanted Luke to do. Call it the force, call it whatever ye want but Kenobi had a much greater impact in Luke's life than poor Uncle Ben.

Besides the whole "create destraction for Luke and co. to escape."

The best explanation is...Ben was just a plot device biscuits

OB1's death was more impactful on Luke than his foster parents...?

Unlikely. He was with OB1 for...how long exactly? I'm gonna say a week...MAXIMUM. Probably less than that, but I'll give him a week for grace, for I am kind. He remembered nothing of his parents (obviously). Whether they were his foster parents or not, he was raised by these people. They did not have to take him in, they chose to 20-some-odd years before. They may not have been his birth parents, but they were certainly his real parents. They were Luke's parents and family. And in one day, they were taken from him by the Empire.

Luke spent a week with OB1 and learned a few tricks, Luke respected him because Luke knew that OB1 fought with his father and said his father was a great man, so Luke knew that OB1 wasn't just some old cook. He lived and fought during the Clone Wars. He respected him, sure, but his death certainly did not mean more to him than his parents, whom taught Luke everything he knew.

^ Luke most probably knew Obi-Wan most his life(he was staying on Tatooine to keep an eye on him).. Just at some point Uncle Owen decided he wanted Obi-Wan staying away from Luke.

Obi-Wan needed to be able to guide Luke and let's face it, there was no way he'd get past Vader and those stormtroopers. He knew he'd be able to guide Luke (to Yoda) after death, so that was the only logical choice.

Or he just wanted to rub it in Vader's face that he had found some kind of immortality. But I'd go with explanation number one.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
^ Luke most probably knew Obi-Wan most his life(he was staying on Tatooine to keep an eye on him).. Just at some point Uncle Owen decided he wanted Obi-Wan staying away from Luke.

I haven't actually watched ANH in a while, but if I am remembering correctly, Luke didn't recognise him very much, and of what he did know of OB1, it was just rumours and stories about an old guy living in the mountains. There are plenty of ways for a Jedi Master to keep an eye on someone without interacting with them.

Originally posted by Hybris
Obi-Wan needed to be able to guide Luke and let's face it, there was no way he'd get past Vader and those stormtroopers. He knew he'd be able to guide Luke (to Yoda) after death, so that was the only logical choice.

Or he just wanted to rub it in Vader's face that he had found some kind of immortality. But I'd go with explanation number one.

I laughed at the second one, actually. Unfortunately, if Vader kept the way he was going, he never would have even known that OB1 found a way for eternal life.

I like the first explanation, he's also really old. It'd have taken him forever to walk allllllllllllllllll the way around that hole between the Falcon and him...Only logical choice, indeed.

There was no other option but to accept death, the odds were against him.

The odds were ridiculously stacked against him in RotS when he went to face Grievous. It was about 1000 to 1 with all the droids added in with Grievous.

Originally posted by General G
The odds were ridiculously stacked against him in RotS when he went to face Grievous. It was about 1000 to 1 with all the droids added in with Grievous.

Because General Kenobi was the "Negotiator," that's how he dealt with things in the CW.

Okay, no, he was expecting Cody and the Clones to arrive soon. He was there to distract the droids from the surprise assault.

And as for this thread....

Kenobi died to buy Luke and company some time. He also instructed Luke during the attack on the Death Star. By sacrificing himself, Obi-Wan allowed himself to be able to guide Luke when it mattered most. He became "more powerful" indirectly; as a Force Ghost, he could guide Luke and allow him to become stronger and ultimately redeem his father.

In retrospect, after watching the PT movies, another reason could be that Kenobi acknowledged his failure in guiding Anakin. He must have realized that Luke would be the master of his own destiny, and that he himself must ultimately learn to do what was necessary.

Originally posted by Korto Vos
Because General Kenobi was the "Negotiator," that's how he dealt with things in the CW.

Okay, no, he was expecting Cody and the Clones to arrive soon. He was there to distract the droids from the surprise assault.

He cut off the arm of a drunken patron because he was about to get in a fight with Luke...I think giving Vader (the right hand man of Palpatine) his all would have been a given. And anything could have delayed the arrival of the Clone Army.

I do agree with you, just playing Devil's Advocate, more or less.

As for your second post, OB1 never wanted Luke to redeem his father, he specifically told him to not even try, that his father was dead, consumed by the dark side. He wanted Luke to kill him.

Originally posted by General G
He cut off the arm of a drunken patron because he was about to get in a fight with Luke...I think giving Vader (the right hand man of Palpatine) his all would have been a given. And anything could have delayed the arrival of the Clone Army.

I do agree with you, just playing Devil's Advocate, more or less.

As for your second post, OB1 never wanted Luke to redeem his father, he specifically told him to not even try, that his father was dead, consumed by the dark side. He wanted Luke to kill him.

Even if did not want Luke to redeem his father, my original point still stands. His sacrifice brought both time and a chance for Kenobi to communicate with Luke at any critical time when Luke needed to rely on the Force to guide him.

OB1 was selfish. He was tired of living on a dusty planet for the second half of his life. Not exactly the fate a Jedi Master like him deserves and he knew if he died that he could be with Qui-Gon. The fact that he could converse with Luke after he did this was just a good scapegoat.

Originally posted by Korto Vos

In retrospect, after watching the PT movies, another reason could be that Kenobi acknowledged his failure in guiding Anakin. He must have realized that Luke would be the master of his own destiny, and that he himself must ultimately learn to do what was necessary.

So he decided to come back as a ghost and haunt him...

Pretty much.

In the mans own words :

"if you strike me down i will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine"

Now i don't know what the F*&k he meant by that LOL but i believe him

Obi-Wan trusted the Force. He felt that it was right thing to do.

I don't know what the 'more powerful' bit meant... but it sure was a good line.

Originally posted by General G
I haven't actually watched ANH in a while, but if I am remembering correctly, Luke didn't recognise him very much, and of what he did know of OB1, it was just rumours and stories about an old guy living in the mountains. There are plenty of ways for a Jedi Master to keep an eye on someone without interacting with them.



Nah he clearly knew him, and seemed to look at him like an uncle. My guess would be he used to know him much better as a kid, but at some point Owen got annoyed and decided he didn't want Luke to have anything to do with the Jedi.

Originally posted by queeq
I don't know what the 'more powerful' bit meant... but it sure was a good line.

Lol yes it was. Was hoping they would explain that more in the prequels. Oh well. Dnt always get what we want.

No... that is quite an understatement....

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, the word 'conflict' does not just entail Ben avoiding a fight with Vader, it means avoiding the Death Star all together. Again, it's completely theoretical.

Ben actually went there and eventually saved Vader, showed him how to become a Force Ghost and went to reunite him with Luke after death. Considering how he totally failed to train Anakin as a decent jedi, I think his sacrifice in that regard was kind of needed.

Indeed.

Originally posted by queeq
I don't know what the 'more powerful' bit meant... but it sure was a good line.

Maybe Georgie had something up his sleeve in ANH that was supposed to be further explored with this line.

But it did not pan out. Luke was in the fight of his life with Vader in Cloud City...Obiwan could have at the very least popped up during that fight, dropped his pants and flashed Vader a view of his wrinkled, glowing @$$ just to provide a distraction.

But he didn't, as he declared on Dagobah if Luke faced Vader prematurely Kenobi couldn't get involved. Something was restricting this (not his choice; he glumly declares that Luke was their last hope before Yoda drops the Leia hint).

Well, here's the truth:

George hadn't fully written out the force powers with ANH. The lightsabers were used with two hands, instead of one in ANH (for the most part). If OB1 wanted to make it back to the MF, he could have. But George did not want to write it that way. It happened that he ran into Vader as he was running back to the ship. Why didn't OB1 get back to the ship, faster? Why didn't he create a distraction with force push/pull? Again, George hadn't fully written out the force powers with ANH.

Because Sir Alec Guiness despised Star Wars, so he had George old boy kill off his character so he wouldn't have to play the character very much for the next two movies.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Because Sir Alec Guiness despised Star Wars, so he had George old boy kill off his character so he wouldn't have to play the character very much for the next two movies.

Yes George being desperate in those days pointed a gun at Sir Alec's head and threatened to kill his whole family if he did not play Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Originally posted by dadudemon


The lightsabers were used with two hands, instead of one in ANH (for the most part).

They still are used with 2 hands most of the time.

Originally posted by theICONiac
Maybe Georgie had something up his sleeve in ANH that was supposed to be further explored with this line.

But it did not pan out. Luke was in the fight of his life with Vader in Cloud City...Obiwan could have at the very least popped up during that fight, dropped his pants and flashed Vader a view of his wrinkled, glowing @$$ just to provide a distraction.

But he didn't, as he declared on Dagobah if Luke faced Vader prematurely Kenobi couldn't get involved. Something was restricting this (not his choice; he glumly declares that Luke was their last hope before Yoda drops the Leia hint).

Probably the Force kept him from interfering too much. Ben ultimately helps in the redemption of Vader so his intervention could've messed with Vader doing his own path into redemption.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Because Sir Alec Guiness despised Star Wars, so he had George old boy kill off his character so he wouldn't have to play the character very much for the next two movies.

No, the real reason was that GL didn't have much for OB1 to do after the Death Star. He was just hanging around after that, not doing much, so he decided to kill him. A good choice IMHO.

He knew that dying in front of Luke would help to deter him from the dark side, maybe.

Yeah... causing anguish and heartbreak in someone is the way to keep them from dark thoughts.

I was talking along the lines of his death giving Luke a strength and resolve to just say no, as it were.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, here's the truth:

If OB1 wanted to make it back to the MF, he could have. But George did not want to write it that way. It happened that he ran into Vader as he was running back to the ship. Why didn't OB1 get back to the ship, faster? Why didn't he create a distraction with force push/pull? Again, George hadn't fully written out the force powers with ANH.

This made me realize something. Once Vader knew OB1 was involved with the rebellion/ saving Leia, wouldn't he realize Vader would be able to sense him wherever they flew off to in the MF? Just as Luke realized later in RoTJ, maybe OB1 knew he would jeopardize the mission by staying with the group. But dead, by being a force ghost, he could remain with Luke, help train him, and not be sensed by Vader. It wasn't until ESB that Vader/ Palpatine felt the disturbance in the Force as Luke began to train with Yoda.

Kenobi chose to die because he was f*cking old. He was tired of living in exile and sh*t. And Vader presented a way out that wasn't suicide and wouldn't get the Midichlorians mad at him.

Wow, first day on these boards and already found a ridiculous but cool conversation.

I believe a summary of all these reasons are the truth...

First off, the question as to why wouldn't Ben stay alive and train Luke? Remember, the last person that Ben tried to train to become a Jedi, became the dark lord of the Sith known as Darth Vader. He was NOT to train the New Hope. Ben knew as a ghost that he could get Luke to Dagobah to train with Yoga. It was Yoda's role to train Luke, not Ben's.

Ben knew that revealing himself to Vader after all these years would start a crazy manhunt and Vader would do everything to hunt him down, thus he couldn't endanger Luke and co. by getting back on the Falcon.

Ben had been training in for becoming a force ghost and would be with Qui-Gon.

By becoming a force ghost, Ben did become more powerful than Vader would imagine. He was now able to follow Luke around remotely and help and guide him to follow the correct path.

When becoming a Jedi Knight, there are a lot of trials and tests. These are designed towards the person learning right from wrong and how to respond properly to any given situation. It is very important that a person learns proper morality. This is why Luke had to face Vader alone. This was his ultimate test and neither Ben nor Yoda could make this decision for him, they could only prepare him to be strong and make the correct decision. It wasn't only a physical - can Luke beat Vader? contest, but also a test of whether Luke was strong enough to do what was right and resist the temptation to switch to the dark side.

Originally posted by Khamier


First off, the question as to why wouldn't Ben stay alive and train Luke? Remember, the last person that Ben tried to train to become a Jedi, became the dark lord of the Sith known as Darth Vader. He was NOT to train the New Hope. Ben knew as a ghost that he could get Luke to Dagobah to train with Yoga. It was Yoda's role to train Luke, not Ben's.


Welcome aboard Khamier. I'm fairly new to this board and just love the crazy discussions! Here is how the conversation between OB1 and Yoda would've gone:

ObiWan meditates to contact his old master:
"Yoda, Luke has taken the next step and wishes to learn about the Force. I will train him so he will be ready to confront Vader.."

Yoda: "Oh no you don't! Get yourself to Alderaan you must, then send Luke to me on Degobah. Not to train him in even the basics of the Force you are! This student I will take care of myself so another Sith you do not create."

ObiWan: " Yes, Master, but couldn't I just give him some saber training to help him defend himself? Please?"

Yoda (sounding frustrated): "Nevermind Alderaan, just give yourself to the Force, ObiWan. Risk another pupil of yours becoming Evil we cannot."

ObiWan: " You mean just get myself killed and become one with the Force? Will this make me more powerful in some way?"

Yoda (considers for a moment): "Yeah sure, whatever."