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We all know almost all the real force beasts in SW, light or dark, tend to be humans. Sith Lords are usually Human or Sith, and the most famous Jedi are human too. The ancient Sith-species Sith are another species that had a lot of uber people, but not counting those two species, who are the top 20 force users?


Yoda's probably number one, but who else is worth adding to the last?


Darth Cognus and Darth Wyyrlok were both pretty powerful, I think the strongest members of their respective species.

Savage Opress seem pretty powerful

Well obviously Yoda.

For being over 900 years old, I really don't think Yoda was that powerful. There were beings who managed to achieve power near his level in a fraction of the time.

Even if it took him awhile to get there, Yoda's still in the ranks of 'best ever'.


Lesse, Kopecz, a Twi'lek, was one of Kaan's rivals and one of the top Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness. He was pretty strong.

The One Sith seemed to be an order that had a lot of strong non-humans of various species in high places- Nagai (Nihl), Twi'lek (Talon), Devaronian (Maladi).

Oh he's absolutely one of the best ever. I was just talking about his age/power ratio (which wasn't that great.)

Originally posted by Q99
Even if it took him awhile to get there, Yoda's still in the ranks of 'best ever'.


Lesse, Kopecz, a Twi'lek, was one of Kaan's rivals and one of the top Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness. He was pretty strong.

The One Sith seemed to be an order that had a lot of strong non-humans of various species in high places- Nagai (Nihl), Twi'lek (Talon), Devaronian (Maladi). So are you just going to star listing every species that had at least one member as a Force-user?

Originally posted by Q99
Even if it took him awhile to get there, Yoda's still in the ranks of 'best ever'. I wonder what kind of carnage Yoda would have caused when he was 300 or 400 years old?

Originally posted by Galan007
For being over 900 years old, I really don't think Yoda was that powerful. There were beings who managed to achieve power near his level in a fraction of the time.


I have to disagree with this.

I believe that most here would agree that Darth Sidious was more powerful in ROTJ than he was in ROTS. Well this is true due to him having a greater variety of new found force powers that he discovered and mastered over the decades. But I don't see how he greatly improved his core powers (TK, force speed, force lightning etc..) in ROTJ. By the time of ROTS the dark side granted Sidious with enough power to butcher three masters with "blinding speed" and to force Windu into his main office. In his duel with Yoda, Sidious was using the force to easily rip senate pods from their restraints and use them as projectile weapons against Yoda. The comic Sithisis shows him using force lightning to completely disintigrate a giant sith worm to nothing, and this was maybe weeks prior to ROTS. Sidious was also powerful enough to cloud the visions of over 10,000 jedi throughout the entire clone wars.

I think the same can be said about master Yoda. All those years added to his wisdom. You won't find too many jedi who were as wise or as knowledgeable as Yoda. All those years made Yoda an all around great person. He was a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, and an incredible master of TK. Yoda was able to master battle meditation to a very high degree, and was able to see things in the force that most jedi could not, even when the force was being clouded. TPM visual dictionary says that Yoda traveled to many different worlds during his lifetime, so he probably had deep knowledge of hundreds of different cultures.

The same wisdom and foresight that realized Anakin was in a highly unstable state requiring more than stock Jedi phrases, and that the Jedi were being played for fools. The same wisdom that produces stock Taoist phrases that sound deep and profound.

Oh wait...

Originally posted by Lucius
The same wisdom and foresight that realized Anakin was in a highly unstable state requiring more than stock Jedi phrases, and that the Jedi were being played for fools. The same wisdom that produces stock Taoist phrases that sound deep and profound.

Oh wait...

What does this have to do with Yoda's accomplishments that I've mentioned above? I never said Yoda was an omniscience being. Yoda did not like the idea of war, but what was he suppose to do? Allow separatists to conquer worlds while he sits and decides whether or not they should partake in the war? Sidious played his cards extremely well. That does not make Yoda unwise.

Sidious also failed to foresee Vader turning on him. Does that negate his accomplishments?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I have to disagree with this.

I believe that most here would agree that Darth Sidious was more powerful in ROTJ than he was in ROTS. Well this is true due to him having a greater variety of new found force powers that he discovered and mastered over the decades. But I don't see how he greatly improved his core powers (TK, force speed, force lightning etc..) in ROTJ. By the time of ROTS the dark side granted Sidious with enough power to butcher three masters with "blinding speed" and to force Windu into his main office. In his duel with Yoda, Sidious was using the force to easily rip senate pods from their restraints and use them as projectile weapons against Yoda. The comic Sithisis shows him using force lightning to completely disintigrate a giant sith worm to nothing, and this was maybe weeks prior to ROTS. Sidious was also powerful enough to cloud the visions of over 10,000 jedi throughout the entire clone wars.

I think the same can be said about master Yoda. All those years added to his wisdom. You won't find too many jedi who were as wise or as knowledgeable as Yoda. All those years made Yoda an all around great person. He was a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, and an incredible master of TK. Yoda was able to master battle meditation to a very high degree, and was able to see things in the force that most jedi could not, even when the force was being clouded. TPM visual dictionary says that Yoda traveled to many different worlds during his lifetime, so he probably had deep knowledge of hundreds of different cultures. Okay?

All I'm saying is that for having 900+ years of training/experience under his belt, Yoda wasn't that powerful. Dooku, for instance, was very close to Yoda's level and he was only 83 years old when he died.

palptin is dum

N.
palptin is dum

only if "palptin" is the joker'z reel name lulz

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me u

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mis u

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So are you just going to star listing every species that had at least one member as a Force-user?

Well I'm hoping people'll post their own lists, I'm just trying to think of candidates.

And some species just don't have any force users that could be top 20 that we know of. None of the Hutt jedi we know have been all that, for example.

You mean Beldorion? Isn't he the only Hutt Jedi? That got offed by neophyte Leia?

Was he the only one? I thought there were a few.

And yea; he's a contrast to Yoda, four hundred years old and still was beat by Leia.

I doesn't get any more pathetic than that

There was another Hutt Jedi in/before the Exar Kun era iirc.

Ones who have been mentioned so far, listed roughly in who I think's stronger:

Yoda
Wyyrlok (Chagrian)
Cognus (Iktotchi)
Nihl (Nagai)
Kopecz (Twi'lek)
Talon (Twi'lek)
Havok (Iktotchi)
Shaak Ti (Togruta)
T'ra Saa (Neti)
Azard (Quarren)

What he's saying is that, given Yoda's purported natural talent and his centuries of experience and opportunity to master the Force, he should have been entirely on a different league than someone like Dooku or even Sidious.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
What he's saying is that, given Yoda's purported natural talent and his centuries of experience and opportunity to master the Force, he should have been entirely on a different league than someone like Dooku or even Sidious.

I know what he meant. Dooku and Sidious were dark side users, and Dooku thought that just by Yoda falling to the dark side, he would be capable of annilating Darth Sidious. Dooku must have recieved a huge surge in power after joining the dark side for him to think that falling to the dark side would grant Yoda that much power.

The dark side helps you to reach your potential at a far faster speed. You would think that Starkiller lived three times longer than Anakin Skywalker when comparing their feats in the force.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you here, because G007's point is enticing.

Yoda presumably has the highest midichlorian count on record (or at least at during the PT) excluding Anakin Skywalker, based off Obi-Wan's amazed exclamation in The Phantom Menace that "not even Master Yoda has a count ," which would only make sense in context if Yoda's was the next best thing.

Despite the fact that Yoda enjoys a healthy superiority over the likes of Mace or the good Count, it isn't monstrous. It's not like Yoda could effortlessly pwn or otherwise curbstomp either one of them, because that level of dominance has neither been depicted or implied.

What you're saying isn't adding up, because it would mean that Yoda's superiority over non-dark siders should be incomprehensibly vast.

It probably would be if Yoda would allow himself to let loose, which is something that he has mused about in a couple of different situations, but has not actually done. The "light side" of the Force only allows a user so much, especially for someone as dedicated to not following the path of the darkside as Yoda is. Yoda's weakness is his prudeness so to speak. Yoda unleashed would be... incredible.

JT
It probably would be if Yoda would allow himself to let loose, which is something that he has mused about in a couple of different situations, but has not actually done. The "light side" of the Force only allows a user so much, especially for someone as dedicated to not following the path of the darkside as Yoda is. Yoda's weakness is his prudeness so to speak. Yoda unleashed would be... incredible.

I'm still not buying it, though. Consider that, even when restrained, Luke dominates someone like Caedus or UnuThul in the Force despite their own incredible power. Yoda might not have quite the raw power of Luke or Anakin, but he has centuries the experience/training that they do and has probably explored the depths of his potential to an extent that Luke never has.

Remember that Yoda's 20 years away from death by old age at this point.

I don't think at his age, the light side is holding him back at all. I think he's just plateaued, as do most force users eventually.

Yoda may not have quite as much raw power as Anakin/Luke, but his unparalleled mastey and refinement of the Force makes up for it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yoda and Dooku are not close. Was Yoda more powerful? Absolutely. Was the power gap between them that significant? No... Especially when you consider that Yoda had been studying the force some 800 years longer than than Dooku.

Like Gid pointed out: Sans the Skywalker clan, Yoda had the highest midichlorian count of his generation, AND he had 900 years in which to hone his skills/power. He *should* have been able to trounce absolutely anyone without much difficulty (which wasn't the case.) Imo, he just wasn't very powerful, all things considered.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't think at his age, the light side is holding him back at all. I think he's just plateaued, as do most force users eventually.

Agreed. A force user can only become so powerful... even if they have hundreds of years to study.

^ I disagree. The only way for a Jedi to plateau is if he/she let themselves plateau. There are always new things to learn/master - Yoda would likely be the first one to admit this.

Sure he could learn new techniques. But his actual power and skill with a saber can only become so good.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ I disagree. The only way for a Jedi to plateau is if he/she let themselves plateau. There are always new things to learn/master - Yoda would likely be the first one to admit this.

Perhaps Yoda is proof there is a max limit to reach (combat wise at least). By the point of the PT if anything his age was probably a liability.

A 200 year old Yoda may have been much more powerful than PT Yoda.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure he could learn new techniques. But his actual power and skill with a saber can only become so good. I still see that as more of a self-imposed limitation than anything. You should never think your skills are so great that you have nothing left to learn. That's a path to fail right thur.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Perhaps Yoda is proof there is a max limit to reach (combat wise at least). By the point of the PT if anything his age was probably a liability.

A 200 year old Yoda may have been much more powerful than PT Yoda. Personally, I don't think Yoda's old age hindered him at all.

Originally posted by Galan007
I still see that as more of a self-imposed limitation than anything. You should never think your skills are so great that you have nothing left to learn. That's a path to fail right thur.

But it's true. Every one has a limit, even Jedi. And when one gets closer and closer to this limit it typically takes longer and longer to become more skilled. Take Taekwondo for example. One can accelerate through the first couple of belts quickly, but soon it takes longer to go from belt to belt. And when one becomes a black belt it takes many years to go from one degree to another. Why? Because when one becomes more and more skilled it takes longer and longer to improve. So sure he can improve but it would likely be negliable.

Also, once you get to a certain point you can't get a boost simply by branching out and learning a new existing style, because you'll run out of stuff you can really branch out too. You'll have learned all the additional bits of information floating around and can only polish what you have, or the painfully slow process of inventing new stuff that no-one has seen.


The only times I can think of when someone who's already uber gets a major jump in a short period of time are Clone Palpatine and Reborn Krayt, and Krayt flat-out said seeing the other side of death and fighting back made him stronger and showed him what he needed to see.

Galan007
Personally, I don't think Yoda's old age hindered him at all.
It did. Mace Windu observes in Shadow Hunter (c. 32 BBY) that Yoda has slowed visibly over the past forty years alone.

Originally posted by ares834
But it's true. Every one has a limit, even Jedi. And when one gets closer and closer to this limit it typically takes longer and longer to become more skilled. Take Taekwondo for example. One can accelerate through the first couple of belts quickly, but soon it takes longer to go from belt to belt. And when one becomes a black belt it takes many years to go from one degree to another. Why? Because when one becomes more and more skilled it takes longer and longer to improve. So sure he can improve but it would likely be negliable.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, once you get to a certain point you can't get a boost simply by branching out and learning a new existing style, because you'll run out of stuff you can really branch out too. You'll have learned all the additional bits of information floating around and can only polish what you have, I think there was a miscommunication somewhere. I was referring to Yoda's overall powers with the force, not his technical skill with a lightsaber... And while it's true that he most certainly could have invented new forms of combat to stay 'fresh' over the years, we know he didn't (or at least I've never read anything saying he did.) Ataru was his go-to.

Originally posted by ares834
or the painfully slow process of inventing new stuff that no-one has seen.Like Vaapad (which in all likelihood is the deadliest form to ever exist)? A form Mace invented/developed/mastered over the span of a few decades?

If Yoda weren't so lazy, he surely could have invented the 'end all, be all' form with 900 years of practice.

Well, I refer to 'styles' as part of a martial arts analogy, but it applies to force knowledge too. Once you've read through all the tricks in the Jedi library (or all the Sith holocrons and documents you own if you're on that side), you're mostly going to be fine-tuning your skills.

Originally posted by Q99
Well, I refer to 'styles' as part of a martial arts analogy, but it applies to force knowledge too. Once you've read through all the tricks in the Jedi library (or all the Sith holocrons and documents you own if you're on that side), you're mostly going to be fine-tuning your skills. From what we were shown (on film, or in novelizations) Yoda really didn't begin to scratch the surface of 'Jedi tricks'. For instance, Qui-Gon is the one who trained Yoda how to exist as a force spirit after he died. This means Yoda had lived for some 800 years without ever learning that talent. Furthermore, I never saw Yoda utilize abilities such as: force healing, healing trance, psychometry, malacia, battle-meld, sever force, shatterpoint, alter environment, combustion, morichro, doppelganger, etc. - all of which are in a Jedi's 'scope of practice'.

And yes, I understand full well that Yoda's main focus wasn't battle oriented. I'm just saying that his range of exotic force powers didn't seem overly impressive (especially for someone who was 900 years old.) Imo there were still multiple areas in which he could have furthered his knowledge/prowess with the force.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
Yoda presumably has the highest midichlorian count on record (or at least at during the PT) excluding Anakin Skywalker, based off Obi-Wan's amazed exclamation in The Phantom Menace that "not even Master Yoda has a count ," which would only make sense in context if Yoda's was the next best thing.

Despite the fact that Yoda enjoys a healthy superiority over the likes of Mace or the good Count, it isn't monstrous. It's not like Yoda could effortlessly pwn or otherwise curbstomp either one of them, because that level of dominance has neither been depicted or implied.

So you believe that because Yoda had the highest midi count excluding Anakin Skywalker (as of TPM), and has had far more time to reach his potential than most, that he should be able to pwn anyone in a combat situation? I disagree with that, though I do believe that he certainly has a much higher chance at defeating just about any opponent he faces, but the force does not revolve solely around combat. There are other aspects of the force that do not focus around combat. For all we know Yoda could have reached his peak performance combat-wise at a far earlier age than 800 years old. All we know is that Yoda has a mastered a far greater range of force powers at a very high degree than any other force user of his time (excluding Darth Sidious), and 900 years gave him that opportunity.

Originally posted by RagingBoner
What you're saying isn't adding up, because it would mean that Yoda's superiority over non-dark siders should be incomprehensibly vast.

I would say Ventress is a match for most jedi masters of her time, and yet Yoda easily paralyzes her with a gesture. His superiority over her seemed like it was incomprehensibly vast. As of right now, I can't think of any jedi in the PT era who would be a challenge for Yoda except for Windu.

This is how I look at it:

(1.) We are never led to believe that the dark side enables Force users to jump the totem pole of power to absurd degrees. I have a hard time believing that the likes of Dooku or Sidious can compete with Yoda just because they're Sith.

(2.) Though this is hardly concrete, the text suggests that Yoda's midichlorian count is second (at least at the time) to Anakin's own. If his midichlorian count is higher than such prodigies as Dooku and Windu, and he has had eight hundred years to dedicate with the goal of harnessing that power, he should be considerably more powerful than virtually any character in the mythos. Windu himself should not be a challenge.

(3.) We see that simply being a dark sider isn't sufficient to defeat Jedi.

On paper, Yoda should be lightyears ahead of everybody, including the Skywalkers.

PIS I say... PIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes we are.


Unless you meant 'it allows them to gain power more quickly, but not too that extent.'

I'm still saying old age fvcked him up. 20 years is like 2/0.2 percent of his life-span.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm still saying old age fvcked him up. 20 years is like 2/0.2 percent of his life-span.

Certainly makes sense as well.

N.
Yes we are.



No, we're not.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unless you meant 'it allows them to gain power more quickly, but not too that extent.'

One would also think someone that old might also fall into patterns rather than pushing their strength.

T'ra Saa is centuries old and never reached the top tiers (though she did get really really good at battle meditation).

Originally posted by Q99
Even if it took him awhile to get there, Yoda's still in the ranks of 'best ever'.


Lesse, Kopecz, a Twi'lek, was one of Kaan's rivals and one of the top Sith in the Brotherhood of Darkness. He was pretty strong.

The One Sith seemed to be an order that had a lot of strong non-humans of various species in high places- Nagai (Nihl), Twi'lek (Talon), Devaronian (Maladi). PLEASE NOT THE YODA DISCCUSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your all just basically nameing biengs,not over all.I would have to say the kwa.They made the most advansed technology ever!And it was specifically for force wielders with the kwa shape of hand.

Originally posted by Naga Sado
Your all just basically nameing biengs,not over all.I would have to say the kwa.They made the most advansed technology ever!And it was specifically for force wielders with the kwa shape of hand.

The original post is referring to individual Force users.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
The original post is referring to individual Force users. But not the overal topic .

Originally posted by Naga Sado
But not the overal topic .

Yes the overall topic as well.

Yea, like Jinsoku Takai said. I'm curious on all the best individual force users who aren't in the two listed species, not what species are strongest (and even then, tech shouldn't factor in, only force use).

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, like Jinsoku Takai said. I'm curious on all the best individual force users who aren't in the two listed species, not what species are strongest (and even then, tech shouldn't factor in, only force use).

Your compliance has proven beneficial in my sparing of your life. gunsmilie

So, anyone going to offer any suggestions or feedback? Anyone I've forgotten, any opinions on how they'd rank..?

Originally posted by RagingBoner
This is how I look at it:

(1.) We are never led to believe that the dark side enables Force users to jump the totem pole of power to absurd degrees.

Uh, yes we are told that.

Empire Strikes Back-

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?

Yoda: No. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

The whole point of the dark side is that while it isn't more innately powerful, it allows its users to increase in power more rapidly.

Originally posted by Galan007
Like Vaapad (which in all likelihood is the deadliest form to ever exist)? A form Mace invented/developed/mastered over the span of a few decades?

Keep in mind that Mace didn't create Vaapad from scratch. He took an existing form (Juyo) and modified/added to it to create Vaapad.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Uh, yes we are told that.

Empire Strikes Back-

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?

Yoda: No. Quicker, easier, more seductive.

The whole point of the dark side is that while it isn't more innately powerful, it allows its users to increase in power more rapidly. Lawl, I don't know how we all missed such an erroneous sounding thing. And from Gideon, of all nerds.