# Game Math.

Question: in a game where you purchase items and the value of the item increments by a certain value every time you purchase it, what is the explicit formula for determining this?

For example:

Items starts at $10. You want to buy 10 of them. It increments by$5 every time you purchase one.

What is the total amount of money that you will need to purchase 10 at once?

$10*5 + ((10 *$5) * 5) + 5 *5 = $325 Is that the right formula? Let's check: 10+15+20+25+30+35+40+45+50+55 = 325 It might be. Sum up the formula: (Iv * t/2) + (t * i) * i) + (t/2 * i) = Fv Iv = initial value t = times the item purchased (we wanted 10, in the xample) i = the amount the item increments with each purchase Fv = final value after the purchase is complete I know this is a lot of math but this keeps on bothering me and a recursive formula is far too easy to make but difficult to just randomly employ. I need an explicit one so I don't have to keep track of previous values. I don't think the above is correct. Replace with other items to test: Iv = 20 i = 10 t = 15 Fv = (20 * 15/2) + (15 * 10) * 10) + (15/2 * 10) Fv = 1725 Check: 20 + 35 + 50 + 65 + 80 + 95 + 110 + 125 + 140 + 155 + 170 + 185 + 200 + 215 + 230 = 1875 Nope. So I screwed up somewhere. ((n(n-1))/2) + Iv calculates the final value of the 10th item (in the first example). n = number of items (9*10)/2+10 = 55 We know it will cost$55 for the final item.

So I believe I'm onto something there.

Surely there's a much quicker way to go about calculating this.

Edit - Gauss did a calculation similar to the thing I'm looking for when he was in elementry school. 100+1, 99+2, etc. 101*50 = 5050 which is all the number 1-100 added up.

Maybe I could approach it from that angle. I'll try it.

Edit 2 - That works but it requires I figure out the final item's purchase value before I can make the calculation using Gauss's method. There's got to be an explicit formula for the whole thing.

RE: Blaxican
No. tbh I only made it halway through your post though. Could you summarize it?

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
No. tbh I only made it halway through your post though. Could you summarize it?

I can't. You can read the first portion and read the conclusions but the stuff in between is an example of what I'm talking about which makes it kind of important to understand the rest.

Many games have incremental purchase prices for their items. It prevents people from buying too much of one item as they get more money in the game.

Sometimes, the increment is a factor, not an exact value. (Iv * 1.2 versus Iv + n*x, for example.)

But, I figured it out using Gauss's method. It's still not complete as you have to figure out one set before you can use it in the second set. That's clunky and not elegant. I want a complete, single, formula for figuring this out. I could also re-work it to use factors and not an exact value. You know what I mean?

Nephthys
What the fvck kind of games do you play?

Digi
I thought maybe this was about game theorycrafting, which can be fun.

ares834
To add up all the numbers from 1 to 100 one can use the equation (n(n+1))/2. Thus we can use this however, since the first number equals 0 we actually want ((n-1)(n-1+1))/2 or (n(n-1))/2.

Here is what I came up with (Iv *t) + (t(t-1))/2*i = FV

Iv = 20
i = 10
t = 15

20 + 35 + 50 + 65 + 80 + 95 + 110 + 125 + 140 + 155 + 170 + 185 + 200 + 215 + 230 = 1875

Hmmm this is incorrect. You appear to be adding 15 everytime rather than 10.

Really it should be 20+30+40....= 1350

Originally posted by Nephthys
What the fvck kind of games do you play?

It's mostly RPG games that do stuff like this.

They keep incrementing the value of items so you don't stack up too much on one particularly good item or don't become too powerful early on.

And example of incrementing purchases: the Gemcraft series. It increments quite a bit by factors creating almost a "soft cap" for many of the upgrades.

Originally posted by Digi
I thought maybe this was about game theorycrafting, which can be fun.

It can be. This is all about game math, questions about it, or ideas. The first portion is just one of many things we can talk about.

Originally posted by ares834
To add up all the numbers from 1 to 100 one can use the equation (n(n+1))/2. Thus we can use this however, since the first number equals 0 we actually want ((n-1)(n-1+1))/2 or (n(n-1))/2.

Here is what I came up with (Iv *t) + (t(t-1))/2*i = FV

I'll test this in just a second.

Originally posted by ares834
Hmmm this is incorrect. You appear to be adding 15 everytime rather than 10.

Really it should be 20+30+40....= 1350

You're right. I incremented by 15, 15 times. In that example, you can just change the "i" to a 15 rather than changing the whole set.

Edit - YUP! It works. That's what I was looking for. Exactly what I was looking for. Ares...you are now my new favorite poster.

(Iv *t) + (t(t-1))/2*i = Fv

This can be altered to use a factor instead of an increment. I'll rework this to do increments, in a while. Feel free to take these equations and put them into your own RPG game code.

Digi

It can be. This is all about game math, questions about it, or ideas. The first portion is just one of many things we can talk about.

Cool. I do a fair amount of WoW theorycrafting, it's a good time. It's kind of leaked into my other gaming habits, and I think in terms of optimization. Most of it is paper napkin math, but I've worked out a few formulas and do a lot of in-game testing.

It's sometimes hard to model an ideal attack strategy (whether it's a sequence of attacks/spells/whatever, a specific combination of forces, formations, etc.), regardless of the game (shooter, strategy, RPG), and the best games leave too many variables to nail down a "best" because a lot of the strategy is context specific. But it's usually easy to identify a clear winner between two possibilities. Such binary comparisons, if done on a near-constant basis, can over time hone your approach into a few really, really good options. That's generally how I approach games, since I enjoy taking them seriously and getting a lot out of my characters, units, armies, etc. The actual formulas behind the mechanics are rarely transparent though, so it's an inexact art most times.

Originally posted by Digi

Cool. I do a fair amount of WoW theorycrafting, it's a good time. It's kind of leaked into my other gaming habits, and I think in terms of optimization. Most of it is paper napkin math, but I've worked out a few formulas and do a lot of in-game testing.

It's sometimes hard to model an ideal attack strategy (whether it's a sequence of attacks/spells/whatever, a specific combination of forces, formations, etc.), regardless of the game (shooter, strategy, RPG), and the best games leave too many variables to nail down a "best" because a lot of the strategy is context specific. But it's usually easy to identify a clear winner between two possibilities. Such binary comparisons, if done on a near-constant basis, can over time hone your approach into a few really, really good options. That's generally how I approach games, since I enjoy taking them seriously and getting a lot out of my characters, units, armies, etc. The actual formulas behind the mechanics are rarely transparent though, so it's an inexact art most times.

Those players that can stop and think about the math involed in the game will always have an advantage over their competitors.

I used to be part of a large alliance of players in an RTS game. Whenever they would release the new unit stats for each patch they released, I'd calculate all of the numbers that maximized upkeep costs to defense and attack ratios. This maximized our forces per unit gold spent and we were literally the number one alliance on the server due in part to our unit efficiency.

Some people get pissed and say you shouldn't bring "schoolwork" to play. I love those types because they provide some hilarious victories. Spending an hour to workout the best possible strategy with some math is really cool when it gives you an advantage. Then they get mad and say you're cheating.

Morridini
This can be altered to use a factor instead of an increment.

If the price is changed by a factor f after each purchase instead of an increment, then I believe the following formula will work;

Fv = Iv*(1-f^t)/(1-f)

or since I hate to write math like that, let me use TeX syntax;

F_v = I_v \frac{1-f^t}{1-f}

S_D_J
I prefer Randy Marsh's TMI equation:

Morridini
EDIT: nvm (why can't I delete my own post?)

Digi
Those players that can stop and think about the math involed in the game will always have an advantage over their competitors.

I used to be part of a large alliance of players in an RTS game. Whenever they would release the new unit stats for each patch they released, I'd calculate all of the numbers that maximized upkeep costs to defense and attack ratios. This maximized our forces per unit gold spent and we were literally the number one alliance on the server due in part to our unit efficiency.

Some people get pissed and say you shouldn't bring "schoolwork" to play. I love those types because they provide some hilarious victories. Spending an hour to workout the best possible strategy with some math is really cool when it gives you an advantage. Then they get mad and say you're cheating.

That's awesome.

RE: Blaxican
No it's not, it's nerdy. You guys are nerds.

Digi
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
No it's not, it's nerdy. You guys are nerds.

Yes. Yes we are. I just wrote a trinket comparison for the newly-dropped 4.2 patch for WoW, that got posted to a popular class-specific website as a guide.

I am a nerd.

Originally posted by Digi
Yes. Yes we are. I just wrote a trinket comparison for the newly-dropped 4.2 patch for WoW, that got posted to a popular class-specific website as a guide.

I am a nerd.

No-no...THAT'S awesome. That big-time for WoW players.

Originally posted by Morridini
If the price is changed by a factor f after each purchase instead of an increment, then I believe the following formula will work;

Fv = Iv*(1-f^t)/(1-f)

or since I hate to write math like that, let me use TeX syntax;

F_v = I_v \frac{1-f^t}{1-f}

That's awesome. I may test that out.

There are games, like Gemcraft, that use factors with each "purchase" so the factor version will be useful.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
No it's not, it's nerdy. You guys are nerds.

And you're the type of person that is fun to pwn...cause you get all ragey on the mic and accuse us of cheating. Meow.

Digi
Heh. Well, it IS geeky, so there's only so much I can take pride in it. But I enjoy it. I have a semi-regular spot on a heavily-trafficked hunter website. The guy who runs it updates every weekday (so 5 articles/posts a week). I pop in occasionally with articles, and also take over for brief stretches of time when he goes on vacation and such.

Originally posted by Digi
Heh. Well, it IS geeky, so there's only so much I can take pride in it. But I enjoy it. I have a semi-regular spot on a heavily-trafficked hunter website. The guy who runs it updates every weekday (so 5 articles/posts a week). I pop in occasionally with articles, and also take over for brief stretches of time when he goes on vacation and such.

Off-topic...but how do you have time for WoW gaming, WoW geeking, teaching (I assume you're still a teacher?), working out, KMC posting and modding, AND a dating life? Do you not sleep much? The math just doesn't add up. 313

Digi
Off-topic...but how do you have time for WoW gaming, WoW geeking, teaching (I assume you're still a teacher?), working out, KMC posting and modding, AND a dating life? Do you not sleep much? The math just doesn't add up. 313

Heh. My degree is in teaching, I actually work as the director of communications for an organization. Writing, editing, marketing, pr, etc. Not unrelated to my English background, but not teaching. Just as busy day-to-day, but I don't take much work home, which is nice.

I don't work out. I'm naturally sexy 131.

I make it a rule never to allow WoW to override my social life or work though. I keep my priorities aligned. It's surprising what you can do with not much play-time though. I just don't do anything frivolous. I don't grind useless things like achievements or mounts, anything I do has a tangible benefit to my play (which is primarily raiding, I don't PvP...though I do other things like extreme soloing and hunter-tanking, which are basically the same skills as raiding). As long as you've done your homework, and play with a specific focus, you don't need to sink epic amount of time in. So I raid 2 nights a week for 3 hours each night (weekdays, so usually nothing else going on). Then I'll put in time on weekends when I have spare time, so my overall playtime varies.

But I don't f--- around with alts (literally 2 toons ever with more than an hour of gameplay, and the other is mostly there to support the main with professions), and I enjoy the game when I'm getting the most out of my class and my performance, and that shows when I play.

But as a result, it takes me a long time to work through other games, or books I'm reading, stuff like that.

I'm also deceptive with KMC. I pop into my forums that I mod or frequent, post maybe 5 posts a day, check the reports, ban a sock or two, and am out in 10-15 minutes. I never spend long on here. If I'm ever "online" for longer than that, which is often, I probably just left my browser up and went to wank do something else.

Burning thought
Ok, I have a calculation here but the formula is under scrutiny. I am calculating force used in someone flipping 300 tons, roughply 4 meters in 1 second;

Is there a flaw in this calculations formula? regardless of the actual numbers used, is the formula sound? What can improve it or a counter formula that can fix errors?

ares834
Originally posted by Burning thought
2177883.376 / 1.3558179483314004 = Pounds per square foot

This just confuses me. What are you doing here? What does the number 1.3558179483314004 signify?

Burning thought
Its 1 foot pound in jouls.

ares834
K then it's not quite correct.

You should have 1606324 foot-pounds not pounds per square feet.

Foot-pounds are a unit of energy while PSF is a unit of pressure.

Burning thought
So how would you find out the pressure from there?

ares834
Can't really. I'd recomend using F=MA to find the force. The hard part here of course is finding A. Then find the square area and divide F/SA and you will have pressure.

Burning thought
So the square area of what its striking? or of the object that is striking? for example if I was punching a cement block of about 1 meter cubed or w/e would I be finding the square area of the impact? e.g. my knuckles?

If I was picking it up, or flipping it over would I be calculating the square area that my fingers/hands touch it? Once I know this I can try and get A I guess.

ares834
Square area of the contact. So in that example yes, your knuckles assuming they are the only part of your fist that contacts the cement.

Edit: And yes it would be the square area that your hands touch. However, in that case im unsure why you want pressure...

Burning thought
Ok thanks. Not sure how to calculate the acceleration but I may as well ask here since I started here. This is what I am calculating;

Now starting from about 3:56 and ending at 3;57 Raziel pulls it up with his finger tips or hands (three digits, two claws and a thumblike one) what would you say the acceleration is? I assume were mathing the object to find out how much force moved it? so the acceleration of the object not Raziel?

Part 1; Below at the beginning at 3;56 he goes from little speed to lifting it to his chest, so roughply 1.4-1.5 meters in what? 0.3-0.4 seconds I dont know.

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6430/razielobeliskflip1.png

Second phase 2. Nearing the end, at 3;57 he pushes it, giving it the energy to travel another meter, half meter before the full second ends but of course its own weight takes a lot of force on the way down but seems to bounce back up suggesting some of his force was added perhaps. not sure.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8708/razielobeliskflip2.png

So about 1.5 meters in less than a second, and in the rest of one second gives it the energy to go further until its weight takes it in the fall. Would I have to find the acceleration of the block during the entire thing? including its own weight taking it? or just the parts that Raziel obviously influenced?

That's going to be a lever calculation.

And since the mass of the object will help due to gravity, you'd just need to find the force generated by him picking up one side which is not as much as picking the whole thing up at once.

Meh...I could sit here and figure that out, but it would take too long.

ares834
Damn... That's a hard one. I won't really be able to help you here. Sorry.

Burning thought
That's going to be a lever calculation.

And since the mass of the object will help due to gravity, you'd just need to find the force generated by him picking up one side which is not as much as picking the whole thing up at once.

Meh...I could sit here and figure that out, but it would take too long.

What would it take to convince you to do it?

Or at least, give some foundations? By one side, do you mean just half the weight? or one side as an angle of the other or something? e.g. weight on one side of the "lever"?

Based on it apprently taking too long, I doubt its as easy as that?

leonheartmm
you need to use quite a LOT of calculus to find the force applied through a moving point in a lever to give the kind of CHANGING acceleration that the block/lever has to a CHANGING centre of gravity. the system isnt chaotic but thats still a lot of calculus. also, the determination of those figures is very hard from just observing the game on screen.

Morridini
I think I glanced over it, but what was the question again?

Also, could we try to stick to SI units when discussing these things? Suddenly seeing "pounds" in the middle of calculations is really annoying.

Burning thought
The force Raziel (the blue guy) uses to flip up the 300 ton block across its axis. Were calculating acceleration in the block up until the point weight of the axis completly takes over. In 1 second, as shown above Raziel puts his fingers under it and lifts it up to his chest/lower neck and then pushes it so acceleration+actual weight Raziel takes (since not all of it is on him due to it being a lever).

Morridini
Right, so for simplicity we could start by assuming that he does in fact lift the entire one (compensate for the lever later). So the force Raziel uses must be F = Mg + Ma = M(a+g), where M=3x10^5 kg, g=10 m/s^2, and a is unknown.

He lifts it to his chest, so let's say that that's x=1.5 meters, in one second, making the velocity 1.5 m/s, we can then use the classic formula; x = x0 + v0*t + 0.5a*t^2 and solve for (here x0=v0=0) a=2x/t^2 which give us an acceleration of a = 3 m/s^2

Resulting in a force of N = 3x10^5 *(10+3) kgm/s^2= 3.9x10^6 N = 3.9 mega Newton.

In order to compensate for the lever, someone should make a force diagram where we decompose the force in an x- and y- direction. But I'm a bit busy to do that now.

Burning thought
Nice, thanks man for the work done. To tell you the truth this math is beyond me. I understand to some degree what your doing in practice but I dont understand how I could get around doing it myself.

So without taking into account the lever, if I get his right Raziel creates a force of 3.9 mega Newton to move it?

I assume once we get the pressure do we find out how much force based on the area of his hands/surface he pulls the object with to get how much force hes actually putting through his hands to get the movement?

Morridini
Originally posted by Burning thought
Nice, thanks man for the work done. To tell you the truth this math is beyond me. I understand to some degree what your doing in practice but I dont understand how I could get around doing it myself.

Practice makes perfect.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So without taking into account the lever, if I get his right Raziel creates a force of 3.9 mega Newton to move it?

Yes, or well, he uses that much to raise the mass 1.5 meters in 1 second, other distances over other time intervals would result in different answers.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I assume once we get the pressure do we find out how much force based on the area of his hands/surface he pulls the object with to get how much force hes actually putting through his hands to get the movement?

I'm lost again, what are you after? With my calculation above (lots of simplifications made), he pushes upwards with a force of 3.9 MN, using both hands (I guess, I never looked at the video, just the screenshots), so unless one arm is stronger then the other, I assume he push upwards with a force of 1.95 MN from each hand, was that what you were after?

Burning thought
Originally posted by Morridini
Practice makes perfect.

Yes, or well, he uses that much to raise the mass 1.5 meters in 1 second, other distances over other time intervals would result in different answers.

I'm lost again, what are you after? With my calculation above (lots of simplifications made), he pushes upwards with a force of 3.9 MN, using both hands (I guess, I never looked at the video, just the screenshots), so unless one arm is stronger then the other, I assume he push upwards with a force of 1.95 MN from each hand, was that what you were after?

I am trying to find pressure, such as PSI, pascal etc made by his hands pushing the surface, so he uses 3.9MN to pull the thing up but how much actual pressure is his hands exerting on the similiar area?

This is the first calculation you see to get his actual strength or power, from there I want to find out how much pressure he can exert in certain strikes, e.g. claw slashes, punches etc.

If pressure= force/area then that would give us 3.9MN/ area of his hands would it not?

Morridini
That's correct.

Burning thought
The hard part in that calc is getting the actual area of his hands in meters squared, since their not like human hands, having 2 less digits but being large clawlike things.

Morridini
There's way too much speculation going around for you to need to concern yourself with such details, do simplifications. The 300 ton has got to be an estimate, I set g=10 instead of 9.81, the height he raises it and the time spent are both very unsure, all in all making the margin for error huge. Just go by a decent guess, like 0.02 m^2.

Burning thought
300 tons was calculated here;

Originally posted by BloodRain

Obelisks tip;
The square based pyramid tips height is equal to its lengths which are equal to Raziel's height.

V= 1/3 b2*h
V= 1/3 175^2*175
V= 1/3 30,625*175
V= 1/3 5,359,375

V= 1,786,458.33 cm3
Density = 2.6 g/cm3

1,786,458.33*2.6 = 4,644,791.66 g = 5.12tons.

Obelisks frustum body;
The base of the obelisk is 2x Raziel's height at 350cm. The height is 4x the base for 1,400cm

Pyramidal frustum volume = &#8531;h(a1+a2+(&#8730;a1*a2))
h is height, a1 is area of base square and a2 is area of top square.
= (1400cm/3)*(350cm^2+175cm^2+&#8730;(350cm^2*175cm^2))
= 466.666*(122500+30625+&#8730;3751562500)
= 466.666*(122500+30625+61250)
= 466.666*214375
= 100,041,524cm3

100,041,524*2.6 = 260,107,962 g = 286.719949 tons

286.719949 ton body + 5.12 ton tip = 291.839949 tons.

But because a friend has another way of calcing it that had slightly higher results I'll use the middle ground of 300 tons.

Using the density as solid granite, the average building material for obelisks, granite seems the closest we can get but yes, its an estimation. in a fictional world its nigh impossible to get facts without a specific canon statement which most games vs games do not have.

Using that calculation of yours we get; 3 900 000 /0.02 m^2

195000000 pascals (195 megapascals)- nearly 2000 bar, about 400 tons of force over his hands, which makes sense if he was lifting the whole 300 tons at that speed but this is not the case.

Seems a fair enough number, although I guess to get the final figuire I will have to wait until a kind soul with some time on their hands can calculate how the lever would work.

Taking into account I will want to be mathing how much pressure he can create in a punch, moving far faster than he does in the video we are mathing now. How would I use his strength found in this current calculation in conjunction with new acceleration/movements?

BloodRain
Soo.. F = M(a+g) where M= 272155.422 kg, a=2.8m/s^2 and g=9.81m/s.

3431879.87142 kgm/s^2 = 3.431x10^6 N = 3.431 Mega Newton.

Can you explain the 'x = x0 + v0*t + 0.5a*t^2' formula and why the 'x0' wasnt used? I'm only used to seeing the 'a = 2(distance in meters - (initial velocity*time))/t^2' that sorta matches your 'a=2x/t^2', and I take it the 'v0*t' is the initial velocity which is a stationary 0m/s. So whats that x0?

Burning thought
I am wondering if its even possible to find the pressure used based on a lever, wouldnt the starting weight of the object be near its max? when its only like, an inch or two off the ground, then gradually the force required would be less as weight gets transfered to the axis.

BloodRain
Wouldn't using a torque calculation be used for this?

Burning thought
This;

http://www.bondhus.com/tech-library/body-1b.htm

Sort of thing? so if i get it right, the applied force being 3.9MN multiplied by about 2 meters (distance from Raziels claws to the axis?).

So 3.9MN x 2= 7800000 (7.8MN) newtons? Not sure if that can be right, I probably did something wrong, but I am confused.

Morridini
Originally posted by BloodRain
Can you explain the 'x = x0 + v0*t + 0.5a*t^2' formula and why the 'x0' wasnt used? I'm only used to seeing the 'a = 2(distance in meters - (initial velocity*time))/t^2' that sorta matches your 'a=2x/t^2', and I take it the 'v0*t' is the initial velocity which is a stationary 0m/s. So whats that x0?

You're right, it was entirely pointless of me to include it here (I just typed it down as I remembered it), x0 stands for the initial position, say he picked something up that was buried 10 cm into the ground, then x0=-0.1. But in our case it was touching the ground, making x0=0.

Burning thought
Morridini can you shed some light on the Torque subject? can this be used to find out the force? if it was a square cube perfect in shape I assume this would be easier but because its a large obelisk and is taller than it is wide by a fair margin it must have some gravity that works against Raziel even when its on its edge if that makes sense.

BloodRain
#I found a formula for torque being mgl/2d. Mass*gravity*axis length of 3.5m / distance from the axis to the applied force of also 3.5m*2. Soo...:
(272155.422kg*9.81*3.5m)/ (2*3.5m) = 1334922.34 kg/meter. ##Then I timed by the 1.4m/s lift for 1868891.28 kg m/s = 1.868 mega newtons.

Its probably not torque, #the wrong formula and ##wrong interpretations... But dammit it looks good from where I'm standing compared to what a full lift is :V

Burning thought
If thats true, then Raziel is excerting 209.971562 tons of force across the area of his hand which using Morridinis estimate 0.02 squared is fair. So it makes some sense that 200 tons can move a portion of the 300 tons. Whether or not its the right figuire I dont know.

The calculation is much more complicated because the block is so tall. Gravity will act on the y axis of the block, also helping it to be picked up on one side.

Picture two force vectors: one force vector lifting straight up on one side on the bottom of the block (your video game character) and one force vector always pulling down on the very top of the block (gravity). The system is "dynamic" meaning, the more you lift it, the easier it is to lift.

For the sake of the calculation, finding how much force is required to lift it just a tiny tiny bit would be enough to find the maximum force applied.

Why?

Because that would give us the upper limit without having to involve gravity too much. Remember, only do enough to come up with your answer. This is a "simple" second class lever system, if you do it that way.

Fe = l dl / de

FE = force effort

dl = distance of load from fulcrum

de = distance of effort.

IIRC, from my first year physics class...you pretend the load is at the center and divide by 2 to find the "load" of a lever that is actually the load.

Meaning...pretend you're picking up a support beam on one side. The Fulcrum is the other side where it touches the ground. The load is the support beam itself, meaning, the load is distributed evenly across the whole lever.

One way to test my memory to see if I'm remember this right is to split the load into 4-8 even parts across an imaginary lever arm. Calculate for each point, and add the system up/together. Compare that to my idea of putting all the load in the center and dividing it by two.

If the two are very close, then I'm remembering this correctly.

Then we just find the area of his hands. That should not be too hard. His hands look to be, if you consider that he only has 2 fingers and one thumb, about the same area as a large man's hand.

Burning thought
Raziel seems to lift it up to about his chest, then as he turns his hands around the block comes down a little on him and then he pushes it back up and over.

Do you not have to calculate the energy of the push to get it over the "axis" as well? or just the pulling up of the thing?

I will probably wait for someone who understands it more like Morridini to do this, as I dont fully understand it.

The load is 300 tons? But whats the fulcrum? the axis that touches the ground as Raziel lifts?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Raziel seems to lift it up to about his chest, then as he turns his hands around the block comes down a little on him and then he pushes it back up and over.

Do you not have to calculate the energy of the push to get it over the "axis" as well? or just the pulling up of the thing?

I will probably wait for someone who understands it more like Morridini to do this, as I dont fully understand it.

The load is 300 tons? But whats the fulcrum? the axis that touches the ground as Raziel lifts?

Oh.

I thought he picked up one side and tipped it over.

If that's the case then BloodRain's answer will do. Just figure out the surface area of your hands if you wear and XL glove. Then you have your answer.

Nephthys
A video would likely make this easier.

Burning thought
Oh.

I thought he picked up one side and tipped it over.

If that's the case then BloodRain's answer will do. Just figure out the surface area of your hands if you wear and XL glove. Then you have your answer.

He lifted it up to about his chest with his hands underneath, then moved them round to push it with his palms over;

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4274/razielobeliskpush1.png

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6416/razielobeliskpush2.png

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3139/razielobeliskpush3.png

Morridini said 0.02m^2 was a fair size for Raziels hands? I dont wear gloves so I could not tell, I guess I could ask someone who does if thats the best way.

Morridini
Originally posted by Burning thought
I will probably wait for someone who understands it more like Morridini to do this, as I dont fully understand it.

I haven't done any "torque" kinda calculations since Mechanics at the Uni several years ago, so I'm actually not that good on this part. I still think the clue lies in making a free body diagram and looking at how the force gets spread, so I might take a look at it tomorrow.

As for the hand size, I simply went to the Wikipedia page for hand, looked at average width and length of a male hand, and multiplied them together (which would be ok if our hands were square-shaped), and rounded up to 0.2 as Raziel seems to have slightly larger hands.

BloodRain
Fe = l dl / de

l = 277155.422 kg
dl= 7.85m
de= 1.4m/s

Fe = (277155.422*7.85) / 1.4
Fe = 1558999.25 kgm/s
1 N = 1 kgm/s

^ Admittedly rough and.. partially skim read and didnt understand the half of the length of the center of something...

The lift in video form.

And the area of what part of the hand? The fingers, palm and fingers, the tips and palm, the tips alone?

Btw the surface area for an open palm+fingers is about 0.015m2 for a guy, Raziel has a 30cmx12cm hand. Given that its roughly the same form as a persons his palm+fingers surface area would be 0.027m2.

pr1983 Well thats surprising.

Burning thought
ok, if we take in mind Raziel can create 1.868 meganewtons of force. Or 200 tons across his hands to push manip this thing.

How do I calculate what with accleration and such being different, this;

Now granted he is not using one of his arms, but taking into account earlier strength, the distance he jumps and the arc+distance his clawed hand travels overall how would I calculate how much force he is using? Can I use previous strength of 1.868MN (find out how much one less arm makes in difference) and then use the acceleration shown in this video?

Just the first strike, the further kick and such is probably something different.

Morridini
You can't really use this info for that situation, we don't know if Razienl put all his effort into lifting the monolith or not, nor do we know if he want all out in that fight either.

Originally posted by BloodRain
l = 277155.422 kg
Why did you set the moment of inertia I equal to the mass? Surely it must be something else, especially since you rotate around one edge and not the axis.

Burning thought
Well what if we assume he put all his effort into the monolith AND in this fight? In games vs we usually take the best strength feat they have and claim that as their upper limit, I dont know how to find an upper limit if it was deemed Raziel hardly tried (he does not seem to try much more here than he does moving around 50 ton blocks earlier in the game but I am not sure it works).

So assume both are max power? How would the calculation look to find out force in this example, assuming hes using max power of 1.8MN?

BloodRain
Does 1 Newton = 1 Joule/cm?

Originally posted by Morridini
Why did you set the moment of inertia I equal to the mass? Surely it must be something else, especially since you rotate around one edge and not the axis.
l was the load, I thought that would be the load/mass that moves on the pivot... appears I didnt quite grasp that calc to well.

Burning thought
Its per meter, not cm iirc Bloodrain.

Burning thought
Sorry to double post but this is what Morridini and I have come up with so far;

At first I thought you just turned the Newtons 1.868MN into mass (100g=1N?) but Morridini pointed out this was simply in relation to gravity and pointed out I was better off just adding the force shown previously to the force created by Raziels body moving at speed.

Just to be clear, the number 0.000002064512 meters squared is the estimated area of Raziels two very claw tips on games vs, 0.0032 inches squared or 2mm squared. Pressure = force/area in meters squared so I made sure all the measurements were correct as I understood.

-------------------------------Raziels weight+MN force (Morridinis formula)-------------------------

previous known force; 1868000 Newtons

Raziels rough weightx acceleration= mass; 72.5747792 kg x 50 acceleration= 3628.73896 N

This force added to previous force= 1871628.73896 N

Pressure;

1871628.73896N/ 0.000002064512 (meters squared)= 906571983577.71715543431086862174 pascals. Equivalent to 9065719.835777171 bar (roughly 9 million, equivelant to almost 3x the Earths core pressure per 0.0032 inch squared. Also equel to 65 743.5776 tons per 0.0032 inch squared.

-------Square inches-------

There are 322.58 ,0.0032 inches squared (or 2mm squared) in a square inch. Therefore, 9065719.835777171 bar x 322.58 means Kain has 2924419904.62499982118 bar (2.9 billion bar, roughply 800 times the earths core pressure) of resistance to pressure per square inch. Or 21207563 tons (21.2 million tons) per square inch of force.

------Square meter----------

How many 0.0032 inch squared are there in 1 full square meter? = 1 550.0031 (square inches in a meter)/0.0032= 484375.96875, 0.0032's

Over a square meter? = 9065719.835777171 bar x 484375.96875= 4.3 trillion bar per square meter. A square meter of Kains top skin layer can take pressures equel to 17.5 times the suns core pressure. Equel to 32871788393.4453 tons (32.8 billion tons) per square meter.

BloodRain
..So. Have been asked to get a second opinion on using the deceleration of acceleration when getting the force.

(current velocity - initial velocity) / time it took = -acceleration ie deceleration.

For instance, in the thread a character catches an object of X kg weight moving at 11m/s. The character only moved 40cm in the opposite direction of the weight to bring the object to a complete halt. Basically being brought to a stop in 0.0363636364 seconds, as that's how long it takes 11m/s to cover 0.4m.

That's (0m/s - 11m/s)/ 0.0363636364s = -302.5 m/s2 acceleration ie a 302.5 m/s2 deceleration.

F=X*(302.5+gravity)

Burning thought
I was curious, concering the previous math on Kain. Is there a way I could calculate the heat due to friction on Kains chest at the tip of raziels claws? would the high forces/pressures slicing acrss Kains chest create high heat?

ScreamPaste
0.0000000000085344

Leaving this number here for a future calculatation. It's the total surface area of 4 feet of molecules in square meters.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
0.0000000000085344

Leaving this number here for a future calculatation. It's the total surface area of 4 feet of molecules in square meters.

That doesn't make sense.

Did you mean "4 molecules"?

Also, which molecules? Some molecules have different cross-sectional areas. Some Long Chain Amino acids and can super duper long. Some are so big they are called "supermolecules".

Some molecules are single atoms (noble gases). Some molecules are isomers and can vary their cross-sectional area.

Specifcs, man. SPECIFICS!

Burning thought
Also note that a chainswords blades themselves are quite tiny, the sharp edge may be monomolcular but the blade itself is like an inch or so deep meaning even as sharp as they are, they still need to saw into objects to create any damage and the mechanism is responsible for a lot of the power, a space marine just hitting something with it may do little considering how a chainsaw works.

ScreamPaste
Was tired.

It's a 4 foot long stretch a single molecule wide using a very basic number. IE, the surface area of a monomolecular blade.

Burning thought
NOt been in here for a little while, at the moment I am trying to find out how much force kains Tk has and I have thrown some numbers, admittedly fairly hastilty on the following;

Using this,

For the feat and the following wiki;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength

and assuming the numbers of breaking marble which I have assumed the stone to be based on its appearance and how its used are in the region of square meters I calculated the following;

It requires 15 megapascals to break a square meter of marble, I dont know how to take into account the volume but tbh I dont know what the source is measuring in but since pressure is calculated mostly by meters I thought that was a fair guess.

Kain smashes roughly about a square meter, and more in thickness/volume with his TK throw of Raziel and it shatters into sveral piecies. Therefore, using a pressure to force calculator I found Kain would have to create roughply 1500 tons of force across the square meter to shatter it like that.

BloodRain
UTS is pulling an object apart, opposite to compression where its crushing something. Not sure if theres another term for this but it seems to just be impact force.

Dunno the formula to scale damage to its needed force, but Ive seen 50mph cars do similar damage to stone and thats around 10 tons of force.

Burning thought
not sure about a car doing the same at least not without smashing itself but maybe your right about the UTS vs impact stuff. Ill look it up more, maybe Mirrodini and Dadumon will know more.

Also, using Tk to launc his sword, even 10 tons of force would allow him to throw it at Mach 100+

BloodRain
Actually checking the wiki page it says pretty much what I said; "is the maximum stress that a material can withstand while being stretched or pulled before necking (...) Tensile strength is the opposite of compressive strength and the values can be quite different."
I dont like coincidences &gt;-&gt;

Examples of car damage on walls

I believe that that only works for strength, not speed. Like how the force of Link's strength would allow him to lift 60,000 tons but wouldn't allow him to throw his sword at Mach 18,000. That'd require that level of speed.

Burning thought
I dont know what the first one was made of and the second is brick. Not thta impressive.

Force can be contributed to acceleration. Just use X force, find out the mass and then you can throw a weapon at ridiculous speed. Your own speed is irrelevent, the force you produce gives the object your throwing acceleration of massive levels. In this case, mach 100 with Kains TK, or mach 2k if he just threw it.

Also we know how far someone stronger than Link or his equel throws a sword, a few meters from Ganon. So how much force Link can make is irrelevent.

I dont know why I never thought of Kain using his TK to sort of saber throw his reaver....also, CC seemed to belive that Kain uses TK to create his "non" movement when he attacked moebius, if thats the case he could accerlerate himself to great speeds as well.

ScreamPaste
Oh for the love of God.

TKing something the weight of a man now let's Kain TK his sword at Mach 2k?

Burning thought
No, creating Tk force enough to shatter marble&gt;weight of a man=2kg sword---&gt;mach 100+

Kain using Raziels force can throw his sword at mach 2k

ScreamPaste
FFS.

You realize that's a very ****ing brittle material, right? You also realize "TK to throw shit at speeds we haven't seen" allows someone like Ganondorf to do some really, really asinine stuff? Great, if it comes time to debate Ganondorf against Kain in my thread my new argument is that Ganon TK's grains of sand through Kain's face.

Math is to quantify existing feats, not create new ones.

Burning thought
Ganon does not have Tk that can break marble, also its not brittle lol...a square meter of marble, possibly thick marlbe is a decently strong stone. You also realise Tk that can crack that can launch an extremely light weapon like the reaver miles. Also Ganon would need to be able to create the force, to accelerate sand to a high enough speed/force to pierce Kains superior durability without simply melting/destroying the sand into particles so your analogies are poor there.

More or less the same thing in this example, if someone has X TK force, then they can do X with said force, its like argueing people with high strength can only use the strength they have shown in the exact feat, e.g. Link can only lift big pillars with his GG strength.....no logic...

ScreamPaste
That it is, when you set a weight on it. When you strike it sharply the results are different.

http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2011/2011GL049169.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_(mechanics)

Do I seriously have to remind you that you've actually claimed this before?

Burning thought
Thier talking about numbers as high a 100 MPa apprently creating enough pressure to creature microfractures, so? My figuire on marble simply stated 15MPa. I also used BR's estimate on a car impact doing similair things.

Also Kain being able to strike with enough force quiclky does not stop him from launching his sword with Tk at high speed. He launched Raziel at it, a square meter of about an inch thick of what I assumed is marble cracked apart in piecies. Thats more than enough pressure/force to launch a sword at speeds far faster than any common Games vs character could ever hope to percieve even if he was only using 10% of the force I calculated.

Well now your claiming it so it seems, only my logic was that being magical gauntlets they seemed to just work on this one thing and hes not moved anything else unique to them, they looked exactly the same every time, as if its the block that was also unique. Your approach is that physical force apprently disapears depending on what your doing.

ScreamPaste
Hit a sword with a train moving at 10 MPH, and the sword will not suddenly break the sound barrier.

Burning thought
Why would hitting the sword do this? its not the same as creating the entire combined force on the sword like Kain is and purposefully throwing it in a direction.

A train simply hitting someone or something is not the same. Again, poor analogy.

ScreamPaste
It wouldn't, nor would Kain throwing it.

BloodRain
"Not thta impressive."

Breaking a square meter slab of marble &lt; Breaking right through a 2 square meter slab of wall or a weaker stone.

The compression force of most rocks is high, UTS is less but still decent, not as great impact wise.

And its like Scream said.. and what I said just before, that would mean that a 6e7N Link could throw a 5 kg sword at 12,000,000 m/s, Mach 35,265. Newtons and Joules can be converted to gauge a characters strength, not reversed to gauge speed. Only a speed feat for it can prove that.

Burning thought
Of course it would, transfer of force to a light object. A train moving at 10mph is not equel to intentially launching an light object with something like 1.8 million newtons.

Also I like how your bringing up really terrible analogies, from using sand as a weapon to trains hitting swords? whos tested these things? ime using the base fundamentals of finding acceleration, or possible accleration and A=F/M, I have the force and mass, and therefore get my acceleration. You bringing up weird analogies cant change the math.Originally posted by BloodRain
"Not thta impressive."

Breaking a square meter slab of marble &lt; Breaking right through a 2 square meter slab of wall or a weaker stone.

The compression force of most rocks is high, UTS is less but still decent, not as great impact wise.

And its like Scream said.. and what I said just before, that would mean that a 6e7N Link could throw a 5 kg sword at 12,000,000 m/s, Mach 35,265. Newtons and Joules can be converted to gauge a characters strength, not reversed to gauge speed. Only a speed feat for it can prove that.

Speed is a combination of force and mass though, so what are you actually saying here? that physics is fine to calculate in some areas but not in others?

Is this just suseptable to your whim? no real logical basis?

ScreamPaste
I sometimes wish I'd never even tried to bring math to games v.s. It only works when applied reasonably. Quantify feats, don't invent new ones.

Raziel fits entire hand in Kain's chest, calculate claw tip only strike with impossibly small surface area and an inflated number for force, use it as durability. Kain is immune to Raziel's claw slashes! ...Wait.

But yeah, stone is brittle, your math is wrong, move along.

Burning thought
Oh please, you invented new ones from the beginning. I recall you claiming link could kill people just by tossing rocks with his strength or fireing his arrows with ridculous force. At least ime applying the logic.

er? wut? not sure how thats relevent, people far better at putting together math or a point have proven this stuff, your math has not been so proven and your bias and vested interests in such sort of ruin the belief you can simply be taken at face value.

lol, I like how your argument or more, claim is "stone is brittle", maybe we should use wood as our only structural material if stone is so weak then...oh wait. You dont have an argument for this, nor for A=F/M being wrong either.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I sometimes wish I'd never even tried to bring math to games v.s. It only works when applied reasonably. Quantify feats, don't invent new ones.

I like how anyone thought it could be a good idea. As if the game creators could possibly have known how....seriously these things are taken, there would be dangerous levels of face-palmage.

In the words of Chris Metzen

"Okay, if you're going to try to work out every little detail of someones power you might want to get out more. If you want to know how strong a character is, just get a feel of the vibe, man."

Or something similar.

ScreamPaste
Wait what?

Link's actually thrown rocks and shot arrows with ridiculous force before. Point me. Also, I grew out of "Link throws ____ item" a long time ago. Bow is much more effective, anyway.

Burning thought
You claimed he could toss a pebble to kill someone, or fire an arrow using the same strength he tossed pillars, theres no logic there or logic that these things can even take the force or energy to begin with, especially when according to you "stone is brittle". Fact is, tossing a sword is far more viable, enchanted metal&gt;rock.

BloodRain
*sigh*

DatGai lifting 200 kg at 2m/s = 400 N

1 kg moving at 400 m/s = 400 N

Can DatGai throw 1 kg at over Mach 1?

Newtons and Joules is /calced/ from mass and speed, but in the end force is more related to mass than speed. IE 100m/s has no mass nor force as speed without mass is nothing. Though 100kg does create force even if stationary due to gravity.

-------------------------------

Nah Scream, when it was just "get weight, get speed, lets go" it was fine.. its everything else thats making it into something else.

ScreamPaste
Originally posted by Burning thought
You claimed he could toss a pebble to kill someone, or fire an arrow using the same strength he tossed pillars, theres no logic there or logic that these things can even take the force or energy to begin with, especially when according to you "stone is brittle". Fact is, tossing a sword is far more viable, enchanted metal&gt;rock. There's a reason I grew out of that.

Also, Link does have the striking speed for throwing shit to at least be a considered argument, Kain doesn't.

The facts:

Stone is brittle and it took less effort to crack marble than you like to admit.

Except BR's numbers on Kain agree with mine, and we've both had to scratch our heads at how you took 7x the force, already wrong, and got many more times the pressure. Your numbers are wrong, CC saw it, I saw it, BR sees it.

You might not like me, but don't forget who brought math to Games v.s., you've personally complimented me on my capability at it, too... When it served your purpose.

I agree, I was pointing out that at least when I did it it was based on something. So his claim of 'at least I'm using logic!' was misplaced.

Seriously though, I can support the ****ing arrows.

Burning thought
Well yes statistically speaking assuming "Datgai" is a videogame character, as long as the force is the same, using the full force on a small object should get better results. Ime not going to be able toss a bowling ball or a heavy weight as far as a small rubber ball, not even close. Its a common interaction in physics to use less or more force on heavier/ligher objects. By your logic, Kratos can no more toss a slab of stone further or fater than he can toss a pebble.

I dont know about joules, ime only using force, newtons atm. Force acclerates objects, that gives you speed. Also whats this sentence supposed to counter exactly? youve yet to point out why A=F/M is wrong....

Also, its probably best to see if Dadumon or Morridini come and shed some light no this if they know it. I recall last time you, scream and others tried to call out something I stated it turned out I was only wrong in the fact Kain was more durable than I belived.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
There's a reason I grew out of that.

Also, Link does have the striking speed for throwing shit to at least be a considered argument, Kain doesn't.

The facts:

Stone is brittle and it took less effort to crack marble than you like to admit.

Except BR's numbers on Kain agree with mine, and we've both had to scratch our heads at how you took 7x the force, already wrong, and got many more times the pressure. Your numbers are wrong, CC saw it, I saw it, BR sees it.

You might not like me, but don't forget who brought math to Games v.s., you've personally complimented me on my capability at it, too... When it served your purpose.

I agree, I was pointing out that at least when I did it it was based on something. So his claim of 'at least I'm using logic!' was misplaced.

Seriously though, I can support the ****ing arrows.

Also, CC brought up figuires on pillar lifting and compared it to pressure at a small SA as if it was the same calulation, again, ignorance of what your talking about.

When it served my purposes, and what happened? both BR and I were using joules to try and calculate pressure when thats not possible, Dadumon and Morridini corrected this and gave better feats respectfully.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
So his claim of 'at least I'm using logic!' was misplaced.

And no, ime using logic based on the calculation of throwing or moving a enchanted metal blade, you claimed his bow, random pebbles and all knids of crazy things that made no sense on many levels. Your still doing it when you brought up Tking piecies of sand....I mean, you dont think your claims through.

ScreamPaste
I never claimed tiny pebbles, the bow makes perfect sense and is supported by canon, kthnx, unlike your ridiculous attempts at calcs-in-lieux-of-feats that result in things that actively go against the canon of the series you support.

The most ridiculous thing I ever claimed was an apple, and I did that because I was annoyed with the person I was debating with.

Burning thought
No, its never supported by canon. Never can you prove Link used all his GG strength on his bow to fire arrows also, theres nothing that goes outside the canon of the series, although thats a funny claim who things the guy whos more or less human consistently in each LoZ game who fights things on a low power scale consistently like goblins and other crude things of non descript apprently has a consistent gigajoule strength that you belvie fits in his verse? dont be an obvious hypocrite....

You still claimed it, pebbles and such are just as bad, as is the bow. Infact iirc the bow in OoT is wood or something? not some special metal....

ScreamPaste
Yes, nevermind all those giant ****ing monsters. haermm Nice, and Kain fighting and being wounded by humans is what?

I never claimed pebbles, ever. And the bow has feats.

Yeah, it's wooden, and it's also sat in a treasure chest for centuries, and then does it again after Link uses it, and shoots arrows ridiculous distances, on one occasion out of the atmosphere, and it's a 'fairy bow', IE, magic. Oh, and then in WW it shoots through a cyclone created by a deity, because **** yeah. And in TP it can fire an arrow a half mile accurately. Because **** yeah.

Burning thought
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Yes, nevermind all those giant ****ing monsters. haermm Nice, and Kain fighting and being wounded by humans is what?

Yeah, it's wooden, and it's also sat in a treasure chest for centuries, and then does it again after Link uses it, and shoots arrows ridiculous distances, on one occasion out of the atmosphere, and it's a 'fairy bow', IE, magic.

Yes giant monsters automatically means gigajoule strength is evident and makes sense in the verse? This is why your ignorant of the source, Kain was never canonically wounded by humans. Humans who would no doubt cleanse all those goblins as well tbh.

So it has no real feats at all tbh of being able to survive any special pressures. Yet you assumed Link grasping it with his GG's would work out fine? thats a fine claim its a lump of wood with some magical properties that you assume are whatever you feel like it at the time? sounds like a lot of your LoZ claims tbh.

Also check your source, the fairy bow is not in those games, the heroes bow is. That is also, evidently made of wood, with some metal, seemingly iron finish. From these facts alone, we know the pressure Link uses the bow with cant be more than required to snack wood...

BloodRain
The answer is no, DatGai is a human and can not throw things at supersonic speeds.

"IE 100m/s has no mass nor force as speed without mass is nothing. Though 100kg does create force even if stationary due to gravity." + You can't move faster than you can move.

You can't use a strength/destruction feat to give someone a speed feat far above their actual speed Do you realize how much me and anyone else can exploit this to make characters speedsters? Really think Screamy would turn down a Mach 35,000 Link attack speed if this was real? Think Id turn down Dante throwing a sword at Mach 23,510,000?

BT, stop saying everyone is bias with bad math skills.

^One of the two reasons I joined KMC, some Dante thread and Scream mathing things. mmm

ScreamPaste
&lt;4

ScreamPaste
You mean...

the bow used by the hero!? ZOMG! Wait...

Burning thought
Originally posted by BloodRain
The answer is no, DatGai is a human and can not throw things at supersonic speeds.

"IE 100m/s has no mass nor force as speed without mass is nothing. Though 100kg does create force even if stationary due to gravity." + You can't move faster than you can move.

You can't use a strength/destruction feat to give someone a speed feat far above their actual speed Do you realize how much me and anyone else can exploit this to make characters speedsters? Really think Screamy would turn down a Mach 35,000 Link attack speed if this was real? Think Id turn down Dante throwing a sword at Mach 23,510,000?

BT, stop saying everyone is bias with bad math skills.

^One of the two reasons I joined KMC, some Dante thread and Scream mathing things. mmm

As soon as you said "human", you brought in a huge host of biomechanical reasons, mostly the source of human strength which is mostly physical and certainly not supernatural processes. Humans cant just generate force like Kratos, Kain, raziel or Dante can. Oh and a human can pitch a ball at 100 mph, comparatively, what ime saying for Kain adds up, his vast strength increase vs an object that has no major weight increase. But your going o ignore this anyway...

Also wtf, "you cant move faster than you can move", whats that got to do with creating force? Humans can accelerate things through force, like I said bouncy balls, light objects to far far higher speeds than humans can. Also the mainpulation of certain objects, like a whip by a human can make supersonic booms.

Thats not a speed feat for Kain though, its a strength feat, just not used to strike but to throw. Also what are you talking about? This is not attack speed, this is acclerating a thrown object.

People are bias, as for the math, theres only one person whos proven that their calculations on their own supported character and thats me, everyone else calculates their own feats.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You mean...

the bow used by the hero!? ZOMG! Wait...

Does it say the previous hero was link, and this is the fairy bow specfically? yes or no? if yes, show me.

ScreamPaste
Your math's been shown to be wrong and contradict the canon, so, cool, keep toting that around with you.

Burning thought
More baseless claims, everything you mathed for Link contradcicts the canon. Links basis in pretty much all his games is to calculate puzzles, usually by simple means like finding keys or moving piecies and running around with a shield, the devs thinkign a wooden shield is more than enough protection in most of the games to be worth it for link, Links pretty much a human with a lot of tools and thats been the basis of LoZ from the beginning, not that hes some sort of hulk who could level mountain ranges with his strength. Your claims spit in the face of the entire series logic, wheras mine do not for Kain who is an immortal vampire who fights immortal enemies.

BloodRain
The arms acceleration to throw = acceleration strike.

So Screme, BT's cool with giving us a relativistic Link and FTL Dante.. take it and run mhmm

CC posted his and was proven right. Scream posted his and was proven right. I posted mine and was proven right. Scene posted his and was proven right.

Burning thought
Originally posted by BloodRain
The arms acceleration to throw = acceleration strike.

So Screme, BT's cool with giving us a relativistic Link and FTL Dante.. take it and run mhmm

CC posted his and was proven right. Scream posted his and was proven right. I posted mine and was proven right. Scene posted his and was proven right.

Its not about the arms acceleation, its about the force you can put into the object your trying to accelerate. You dont have to move fast to throw far or hard, you use strength.

Also, I dont mind you claiming Dante can toss his sword at ridiculous speeds, afterall he does it in DMC 3 kinda, although it hits supersonic from a bullet shot.

Wheres the "proven right" part exactly again? the part where you just state the same old? etc etc? and not actually prove anything....

Who other than yourself has gone through your DMC calculations yet? who has agreed with them all? anyone unbias on the forums? no.....what about anyone elses math other than mine? nope....just people with vested interests. Also "CC posted his", CC had no math, if you read his post you would realise he used the pillar feats pressure and the final claw tip pressure to claim just because the claw tip has much higher pressure it has to be in error.

Also its funny when I weed out all the actual arguments, nothing but base statements are left behind lol, its good to know how to work KMC's people.

BloodRain
Son, this only became an argument because you didnt like us saying what we think why would I really want to argue this? In a maths thread no less...

We use the same force to throw as to strike.

Urm... Thanks for the FTL Dante..?

All those people have had any calc feat theyve made checked by members of the forum. Only exception being lower Dante feats from me that done really need looking into due to better ones. Every feat has had one or two other persons checking it. When did I mention CC's recent wall of text....?

And dear lord youre defensive .____.

ScreamPaste
You used "puzzles" to dismiss Raziel's strength not being sufficient to tear down doors, and yet Link's puzzles reinforce that he's not? Huh. Odd. Biased, actually.

Wait, there's a difference! We have cutscenes of Kain and Raziel being impeded by such shit. Oh, and Link's strength showings are consistent in their super-humanity. Oh, and I never claimed Link could chill in the sun, either. Despite him having a better claim to being able to do so, actually. mmm

Dat BT gai. Considering consequences isn't his strength, eh?

General Kaliero
Okay guys, enough.

BT, this is a thread for mathing things. Not for you to ***** about math results you don't like.

Everyone else, don't rise to his bait.

Burning thought
yeaaahh anyway.

Ill wait for Dadumon and Morridini and see if they can shed any light on what I initially bumped this thread to ask before I was attacked.

BloodRain
Attacked..... Damn bait.

Anyhow, if SumGai can slow time down by half his punch would appear to be twice as fast. Would the force come from his real speed or the speed he appears to be at to everyone else?
Personally believe its the first option.

Okay, I read through the thread, watched the videos, and have come to a conclusion:

I have no idea how the **** we are supposed to use math at all for that TK "force push". We don't know what kind of stone that support thingie is made of (this is important because stone can range in "strength" from "weakass" to "stronger than steel". Additionally, if we assume marble, how thick is it? It's not pulverized. We know it's a calculation based on compression strength (not tensile). The area acted about WOULD be measured in pascals. Additionally, the area acted upon would not be a square meter. Much closer to 0.11m ^2 (or about the area of a square whose sides are .333 meters). I say this because the dude's ass was the thing that made the first impact and it also cause the initial break (because subsequent breaks would be almost useless due to the massive amounts of cleavages being created but the ass (lololololol)).

On top of that, this is a complex system meaning there are multiple forces acting upon it.

Here are just some of the forces acting upon it:

1. The compression (elasticity) of Raziel's ass cheeks would negate some of the force of the system.

2. Raziel is pushed in an arc. This means that gravity would contribute to Raziel's fall (and maybe increase the force of impact making it more difficult to gauge the TK push).

3. The "force push" by Kain is magical. We cannot use it to be universal against all objects. What if the magical force push he does ALWAYS accelerates any object to the same maximum velocity? Then it becomes meaningless in this discussion.

4. The compression strenght of a "pieced together" marble build will have segments making it easier to "compress" to failure.

5. Raziel's clothing would also absorb some of the impact.

6. Even the air would influence this force push feat (but only by a little).

7. The impact is the combination of compression and bifurcation buckling measures (all compression but not quite the same types of measures that real physicists do on labs) because the material under that "support column beam thingy" is almost assuredly a combination of materials. That means that there could be a different material (sometimes wood) underneath the marble "covering" on that support structure. It would make the marble easier to bifurcate in the center (where it looks like the impact occurred) causing any calculations to be automatically thrown off (because wood is "softer" under compression tests.)

And there are probably others that I am missing.

So this is one particular feat I am not comfortable with enough to make an estimate: it's too complicated to make it reasonable to undertake for just versus discussions. I'm sure there is a materials physicist that could give us an estimate but I'll leave you guys with this:

It's probably between 5-15 MPa. Why? It's an estimate...and it would appear that marble is stronger to compression forces than sandstone.

I am still forever grateful to Ares for his help with that game math at the beginning of the thread. Thank goodness for Gauss.

Peach
Originally posted by Burning thought
yeaaahh anyway.

Ill wait for Dadumon and Morridini and see if they can shed any light on what I initially bumped this thread to ask before I was attacked.

You seriously need to change your attitude and drop your martyr complex. People not agreeing with you is not you being attacked. You weren't attacked at all. Knock it off. You've been told this before, and I'm getting sick of having to tell you this.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Peach
You seriously need to change your attitude and drop your martyr complex. People not agreeing with you is not you being attacked. You weren't attacked at all. Knock it off. You've been told this before, and I'm getting sick of having to tell you this.

If ime the only enemy or problem and nobody else is at fault then why am I not banned? It would seem a logical solution no?

Also why am I the only one to be told? I recall being reported in one thread for disagreeing with someone yet nobody else is told.

Okay, I read through the thread, watched the videos, and have come to a conclusion:

I have no idea how the **** we are supposed to use math at all for that TK "force push". We don't know what kind of stone that support thingie is made of (this is important because stone can range in "strength" from "weakass" to "stronger than steel". Additionally, if we assume marble, how thick is it? It's not pulverized. We know it's a calculation based on compression strength (not tensile). The area acted about WOULD be measured in pascals. Additionally, the area acted upon would not be a square meter. Much closer to 0.11m ^2 (or about the area of a square whose sides are .333 meters). I say this because the dude's ass was the thing that made the first impact and it also cause the initial break (because subsequent breaks would be almost useless due to the massive amounts of cleavages being created but the ass (lololololol)).

On top of that, this is a complex system meaning there are multiple forces acting upon it.

Here are just some of the forces acting upon it:

1. The compression (elasticity) of Raziel's ass cheeks would negate some of the force of the system.

2. Raziel is pushed in an arc. This means that gravity would contribute to Raziel's fall (and maybe increase the force of impact making it more difficult to gauge the TK push).

3. The "force push" by Kain is magical. We cannot use it to be universal against all objects. What if the magical force push he does ALWAYS accelerates any object to the same maximum velocity? Then it becomes meaningless in this discussion.

4. The compression strenght of a "pieced together" marble build will have segments making it easier to "compress" to failure.

5. Raziel's clothing would also absorb some of the impact.

6. Even the air would influence this force push feat (but only by a little).

7. The impact is the combination of compression and bifurcation buckling measures (all compression but not quite the same types of measures that real physicists do on labs) because the material under that "support column beam thingy" is almost assuredly a combination of materials. That means that there could be a different material (sometimes wood) underneath the marble "covering" on that support structure. It would make the marble easier to bifurcate in the center (where it looks like the impact occurred) causing any calculations to be automatically thrown off (because wood is "softer" under compression tests.)

And there are probably others that I am missing.

So this is one particular feat I am not comfortable with enough to make an estimate: it's too complicated to make it reasonable to undertake for just versus discussions. I'm sure there is a materials physicist that could give us an estimate but I'll leave you guys with this:

It's probably between 5-15 MPa. Why? It's an estimate...and it would appear that marble is stronger to compression forces than sandstone.

So you would say around 5-15 MPa then was required? not necesserily different than my figuire that i first thought.

Also most TK creates X amount of force on an object, Kain tosses tihngs at different speeds ,like he tosses a light staff from a "wizard" for want of a better word faster than he did the wizard himself, he tosses Raziel with this TK a bit quicker than that.

But assuming theres enough force to create 5-15 MPa from launching something, then there should be enough force arguably to launch something as light as a sword (2kg) far faster, taking into account just the force itself?

Am i wrong to calculate it as Accleration=Force/mass?

General Kaliero
Originally posted by Burning thought
If ime the only enemy or problem and nobody else is at fault then why am I not banned? It would seem a logical solution no?
We don't ban based on peoples' dislike. We ban based on our rules, over which we are remarkably lenient.

Peach
BT, shut up. You are just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole, and you are low on chances here, as you've been banned multiple times already.

This is not up for discussion. Drop it, drop the attitude, and leave it. Bring it up again in this thread (or any thread, for that matter) and you will be banned.

Burning thought
I prefer to be banned by moderators than consistently bullied. So go ahead, it will according to your own rules rather than the forums make the only disturbance it seems by your calcluation (me) vanish.

My distrubance seems to be severe, because apprently BT being snide in a thread according to GK gets all this and threats of perm ban.

Wheras someone else can give a 6 page report filled full of attacks, direct, personal or otherwise against me and just get a meager slap o nthe wrist by comparison.

You may as well do what you "want" to do and give us all a break. Its not like I do much here anyway, and the arguments I do here like most games vs arguments dont go far so lets stop wasting time.

Peach
No one is bullying you by telling you that you're bound to the same rules everyone else is.

Arguing back against a mod decision after being told to stop is a bannable offense and is in the forum rules. So, enjoy your time off.

Everyone else - don't even start. My patience is fairly frayed right now and I'm not going to be as lenient as I usually am.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Burning thought
I prefer to be banned by moderators than consistently bullied. So go ahead, it will according to your own rules rather than the forums make the only disturbance it seems by your calcluation (me) vanish.

My distrubance seems to be severe, because apprently BT being snide in a thread according to GK gets all this and threats of perm ban.

Wheras someone else can give a 6 page report filled full of attacks, direct, personal or otherwise against me and just get a meager slap o nthe wrist by comparison.

You may as well do what you "want" to do and give us all a break. Its not like I do much here anyway, and the arguments I do here like most games vs arguments dont go far so lets stop wasting time.

I'm sorry. I know it's prefered that no one gets involved in these cases but.

Is it not possible that given that you possess a particular point of view which contrasts most everyone else's, on a topic which is frequently discussed due to the nature of this section of the forums, where tensions can be said to run high even amongst the best of friends, that as opposed to being bullied, many other people simply get... frustrated with you and thus less than legitimate debating ensues. Obviously given the number of different people that this happens with you, it's simply a case of accumulation of the same offences....

Or something like that...

Just a fresh point of view or something, there's no sense to so much hostility.

Peach
Originally posted by EvilAngel
I'm sorry. I know it's prefered that no one gets involved in these cases but.

Is it not possible that given that you possess a particular point of view which contrasts most everyone else's, on a topic which is frequently discussed due to the nature of this section of the forums, where tensions can be said to run high even amongst the best of friends, that as opposed to being bullied, many other people simply get... frustrated with you and thus less than legitimate debating ensues. Obviously given the number of different people that this happens with you, it's simply a case of accumulation of the same offences....

Or something like that...

Just a fresh point of view or something, there's no sense to so much hostility.

Leave it. As I said for everyone else to do so. Other opinions are neither wanted, needed, nor welcome.

BT mk2
Originally posted by Peach
No one is bullying you by telling you that you're bound to the same rules everyone else is.

Arguing back against a mod decision after being told to stop is a bannable offense and is in the forum rules. So, enjoy your time off.

Everyone else - don't even start. My patience is fairly frayed right now and I'm not going to be as lenient as I usually am.

I never said they were, I feel bullied because I seem to be bound to a different set of rules, e.g. I get banned or at least warned against being snide or the slightest factor as if ime the only one who does it yet people who consistently troll, admit to trolling or even create pages of trolling and direct bashing in counter to the direct rules of the forum get little comment on.

I am not interested in time off, and this sock account pretty much ties your hands, I want off KMC, I dont want to get pulled into coming back in 21 days or w/e silly nonsense, this is a waste of time and people are not going to change their manner on me or anyone in 20 days, if anything your actions here and GK's can only escalate trolling. Lets finish this nonsense?

Originally posted by EvilAngel
I'm sorry. I know it's prefered that no one gets involved in these cases but.

Is it not possible that given that you possess a particular point of view which contrasts most everyone else's, on a topic which is frequently discussed due to the nature of this section of the forums, where tensions can be said to run high even amongst the best of friends, that as opposed to being bullied, many other people simply get... frustrated with you and thus less than legitimate debating ensues. Obviously given the number of different people that this happens with you, it's simply a case of accumulation of the same offences....

Or something like that...

Just a fresh point of view or something, there's no sense to so much hostility.

Everyone has points of view that contrast, that does not forgive people given leniancy to rules that others cannot have. Theres having a different point of view, and conssitently posting as if the other person is an idiot. Whether I was the only person who can see it or not, moderators use their own personal opinions ofa person to meet out "modderation" and I feel bullied by them, I feel like ime being moderated, not a group of people which is both insulting and ridiculous.

I amend my idea. I think the bifurcation buckling with compression is what caused the shattering of the "marble" stuff. So the number will be much smaller. I don't have an estimate to give because there are too many unknowns.

BT: dude...don't bypass the ban just to respond or something. Just let it sit out and pick up this discussion when you come back.

BloodRain
Compression force check:

Using compression Smithel Jr. Sr. crushes a 1 ton rock.

For the sake of the example the rocks compression strength is 100MPa and its Surface Area is 2.5m^2

Compression strength = Area / Load

100,000,000 Pa * 2.5m^2 = 250,000,000 Newtons.

So Smithel Jr. Sr. used 2.5e8N to crush that 1 ton rock.

Is this correct? Ive seen others do similar calcs so I'm sure the formula is right, however that final figure seems too high. The force needed to crush a 1 ton rock being the same force needed to move 800 tons at Mach 1? :/

BloodRain
*Wrong way round, Pa=N/m^2

Originally posted by BloodRain
Compression force check:

Using compression Smithel Jr. Sr. crushes a 1 ton rock.

For the sake of the example the rocks compression strength is 100MPa and its Surface Area is 2.5m^2

Compression strength = Area / Load

100,000,000 Pa * 2.5m^2 = 250,000,000 Newtons.

So Smithel Jr. Sr. used 2.5e8N to crush that 1 ton rock.

Is this correct? Ive seen others do similar calcs so I'm sure the formula is right, however that final figure seems too high. The force needed to crush a 1 ton rock being the same force needed to move 800 tons at Mach 1? :/

It's far from correct.

There's cleavage's in rocks, structural irregularities which could vastly differ in compression strength requirements, and the fact that the forces were applied with his hands (over a much much smaller surface area, making it easy to crush the rock than your calculation).

BloodRain
Lets call it a factory made rock, so no cleavages or irregularities in this rock. Just an all-in-all 100MPa rock.

1. If the whole rock was crushed in one instantaneous movement, so no ever increasing cracks being formed from the area his hands are on, wouldn't the rocks SA be used?
One of the examples where I got the idea from.

2. What if the whole rock was covered by his hands? He has Mr Fantastics hands in this example.